what if: Pearl Harbor

[RichD]

You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,
Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at
Battleship Row. What do you do?

Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,
after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?

There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. Or
perhaps it's already been done -

--
Rich

[David Dyer-Bennet]

RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> writes:

> You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,
> Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at
> Battleship Row. What do you do?
>
> Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,
> after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?

Do you have the authority to do that on your own? (Might be worth doing
even without, if the rest of the officers will go along.)

One argument is that, the way things played out, we won, so it's best
not to mess with it. Especially since the absence of battleships was a
key point in swinging the power to the carrier admirals, who were in
fact mostly right.

> There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. Or
> perhaps it's already been done -

Alternately -- there's an amusing hack for trying to enlist
Lt. R.A. Heinlein (ret.) and his contacts. By 1942 he's been publishing
SF three years, and is going to have a lot of the next few years ideas
in his head. Use your knowledge of what he's going to write to convince
him you really are from the future, and then he can try to convince navy
people to prepare for the attack. (This obviously goes against the
argument that messing with the outcome might not do what you think.)

--
Googleproofaddress(account:dd-b provider:dd-b domain:net)
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

[Scott Lurndal]

Try the movie _Final Countdown_. USS Nimitz zips through a time
storm from 1980 to Dec 6, 1941 just outside of Pearl.

Clever time travel story with great flight sequences, particularly in blu-ray.

scott

[Anthony Buckland]

On 23/05/2013 11:49 AM, RichD wrote:
> You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,
> Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at
> Battleship Row. What do you do?
>

Assuming that's "command", not "commandeer", about the
best you can try is to convince the Admiral that you
have a premonition (fat chance) or intelligence (which
you would be commanded to produce) that an attack
will take place.

> Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,
> after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?

Without orders? You will be immediately arrested.
Your XO, if told in time, will assume command and
return to the ship's berth. You will witness the
attack, if at all, by dull sounds reaching the ship's
brig. If the ship gets back to port before the
attack and is the Arizona, you will doubtless die
by water or perhaps fire or physical wounds.

Your time machine, OTOH, will be of great interest
if found after the invasion fears die down. Now
_there's_ an interesting possibility.

>
> There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. Or
> perhaps it's already been done -
>

Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes.
> --
> Rich
>

[Cryptoengineer]

On May 23, 3:49 pm, Anthony Buckland <anthonybucklandnos...@telus.net>
wrote:

WIthout orders, you *could* order extra lookouts, call battlestations,
put your anti-aircraft and fire damage control crews on alert. At
best, you might be able to report the approaching attack in time to
make some difference, and knock down some of the topedo bombers before
the released their weapons. At worst, you'd save the lives of many of
your crew

pt

[Mighty Wannabe]

On May 23, 3:49 pm, Anthony Buckland <anthonybucklandnos...@telus.net>
wrote:

The crew at Pearl Harbour were ordered to stand down the day before
the attack. If you have been paying attention, the "sneak attack" was
not a sneak attack. CIA declassified documents have proven that the US
knew the Japanese fleet were crossing the Pacific during a typhoon to
attack Pearl Harbour, and that the US also lied about not knowing the
Japanese had already declared war on the US three days before the
attack. The "Pearl Harbour" tragedy was what the politicians were
preying for to get the US sheeple riled up to declare war and join
WWII.

Around the same number of people perished during 9/11 attack. Do you
really believe the CIA was so inept that they didn't know the
"terrorists" were flight training inside the US for 10 long years to
prepare for the attack? The result of that attack was the Iraq war
that has lasted for more than 10 years and counting.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 2013-05-23 16:48:06 -0400, Mighty Wannabe said:

> Around the same number of people perished during 9/11 attack. Do you
> really believe the CIA was so inept that they didn't know the
> "terrorists" were flight training inside the US for 10 long years to
> prepare for the attack?

Yes. I have great faith in the incompetency of bureaucracies.




--
Now available on Amazon or B&N: One-Eyed Jack.
Greg Kraft could see ghosts. That didn't mean he could stop them...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1466291532/

[david.sh...@ymail.com]

On May 23, 4:48 pm, Mighty Wannabe <mightwann...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The crew at Pearl Harbour were ordered to stand down the day before
> the attack. If you have been paying attention, the "sneak attack" was
> not a sneak attack. CIA declassified documents have proven that the US
> knew the Japanese fleet were crossing the Pacific during a typhoon to
> attack Pearl Harbour, and that the US also lied about not knowing the
> Japanese had already declared war on the US three days before the
> attack. The "Pearl Harbour" tragedy was what the politicians were
> preying for to get the US sheeple riled up to declare war and join
> WWII.

Does this mean we are in for yet another batch of cross-posters
with special points of view?

[Rod Speed]

Mighty Wannabe <mightw...@gmail.com> wrote
> Anthony Buckland <anthonybucklandnos...@telus.net> wrote

>> RichD wrote

>>> You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,
>>> Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at
>>> Battleship Row. What do you do?

>> Assuming that's "command", not "commandeer", about the
>> best you can try is to convince the Admiral that you
>> have a premonition (fat chance) or intelligence (which
>> you would be commanded to produce) that an attack
>> will take place.

>>> Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,
>>> after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?

>> Without orders? You will be immediately arrested.
>> Your XO, if told in time, will assume command and
>> return to the ship's berth. You will witness the
>> attack, if at all, by dull sounds reaching the ship's
>> brig. If the ship gets back to port before the
>> attack and is the Arizona, you will doubtless die
>> by water or perhaps fire or physical wounds.

>> Your time machine, OTOH, will be of great interest
>> if found after the invasion fears die down. Now
>> _there's_ an interesting possibility.

>>> There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer.
>>> Or perhaps it's already been done -

>> Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes.

> The crew at Pearl Harbour were ordered
> to stand down the day before the attack.

And had been stood down lots of times before that too.

> If you have been paying attention, the "sneak attack" was not a
> sneak attack. CIA declassified documents have proven that the US
> knew the Japanese fleet were crossing the Pacific during a typhoon

Yes.

> to attack Pearl Harbour,

No.

> and that the US also lied about not knowing the Japanese had
> already declared war on the US three days before the attack.

No.

> The "Pearl Harbour" tragedy was what the politicians were preying
> for to get the US sheeple riled up to declare war and join WWII.

Even sillier.

> Around the same number of people perished during 9/11 attack.
> Do you really believe the CIA was so inept that they didn't know
> the "terrorists" were flight training inside the US for 10 long years
> to prepare for the attack?

They weren't flight training for anything
like 10 long years to prepare for the attack.

And when so many others did get flight training in the US
and never did anything like 9/11, its hardly surprising that the
CIA didn't see it as anything to do with any terrorist activity.

It wasn't even clear that when a plane of that size was flown
into those buildings that they would implode like that either.

> The result of that attack was the Iraq war that
> has lasted for more than 10 years and counting.

And Pearl Harbor didn't.

[David Johnston]

On 5/23/2013 1:42 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,
>> Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at
>> Battleship Row. What do you do?
>>
>> Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,
>> after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?
>>
>> There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. Or
>> perhaps it's already been done -
>>
>
> Try the movie _Final Countdown_. USS Nimitz zips through a time
> storm from 1980 to Dec 6, 1941 just outside of Pearl.

But <spoiler alert>




















nothing happens

[David Johnston]

That's fascinating. Particularly since the CIA didn't exist yet.

[Dan Goodman]

>> The crew at Pearl Harbour were ordered to stand down the day before the
>> attack. If you have been paying attention, the "sneak attack" was not a
>> sneak attack. CIA declassified documents have proven that the US knew
>> the Japanese fleet were crossing the Pacific during a typhoon to attack
>> Pearl Harbour,
>
> That's fascinating. Particularly since the CIA didn't exist yet.

That's the OFFICIAL story.

The CIA was actually founded in 93 billion BC, well before our universe
was constructed.

--
Dan Goodman

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

I didn't realize you were a truther wingnut.

Mighty Wannabe <mightw...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:0e20ba88-f053-4350...@w8g2000yqf.googlegroups.c
om:

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

david.sh...@ymail.com wrote in
news:76c3e983-98f8-4cb9...@d6g2000yqi.googlegroups.c
om:

For values of "special" that start and end with short buses? Why
would today be any different.

[Scott Fluhrer]

"David Johnston" <Da...@block.net> wrote in message
news:knm1qe$4os$2...@dont-email.me...

Perhaps he was referring to the Cleveland Institute of Art...

--
poncho

[Mighty Wannabe]

It doesn't matter. The CIA is in charge of all those records. The
documents were declassied according to US law. I can't remember
exactly when, but I think it was all over the news agencies in the
1980s or 1990s. You must've been living under a rock, or you were
still a little sperm wriggling inside your mom's vagina trying to find
your egg.

[David Johnston]

Well there must be someone out there who is gullible enough to beleive
that. Never lose hope.

[James Silverton]

A resurrection of an old discredited story...they never die and Obama
was born in Kenya!

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.

[Kurt Busiek]

You're certain this is true, even though you can't narrow down when
this stuff was "all over the news agencies" to less than a 20-year
period.

In fact, accusations that the US knew about the attack in advance date
back all the way to the 1940s, and have been a popular conspiracy
theory ever since, with various books being written that charge that
declassified documents "prove" their particular interpretation of
things, but the most that can be concluded from these things is that
the information was there so that the US could possibly have been aware
of the attack, but that much of the information was buried in the flood
of data that was coming in and was likely not communicated to the right
people in time, back when communications were far less automated than
they are now.

A NYT review of one of the more recent books on the subject:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/15/books/books-of-the-times-on-dec-7-did-we-know-we-knew.html

The

Straight Dope's thoughts on the matter:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1889/did-roosevelt-know-in-advance-about-the-attack-on-pearl-harbor-yet-say-nothing

The

long and the short of it: You're insisting something has been "proven"
when you don't actually know the details, just a memory that there were
charges made at some point in the past and that you think they were
true.

But your charges also don't make much sense. The CIA is not in charge
of "all those records." The National Archives, the Navy and other
organizations are in charge of most of them. There was no "crew at
Pearl Harbor" -- there were multiple crews, as well as land-based
forces, and they weren't all stood down. And not all the relevant
documents were declassified in the 80s or 90s -- some are still
classiffied today.

Since your response is to insult those who don't take your vague,
ill-referenced and poorly-phrased word for it, I doubt any of this will
have much affect on your fervent belief, but maybe it'll encourage
others to take your claims with a grain of salt.

kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!

[Mighty Wannabe]

On May 23, 5:32 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mighty Wannabe <mightwann...@gmail.com> wrote

> > The "Pearl Harbour" tragedy was what the politicians were praying

> > for to get the US sheeple riled up to declare war and join WWII.
>
> Even sillier.
>

Read this and weep:
**
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-american-and-british-government-knew-down-to-the-day-of-the-coming-japanese-attack-on-pearl-harbor-and-let-it-happen-to-justify-american-entry-into-wwii.html
**

Indeed, as the following must-watch BBC documentary – with interviews
with many of the main players, including military officers and code-
breakers – shows, the American and British knew of the Japanese plan
to attack Pearl Harbor — down to the exact date of the attack — and
allowed it to happen to justify America’s entry into World War II.

Watch this and weep:
** http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7p1TOA99S88
**

> > Around the same number of people perished during 9/11 attack.
> > Do you really believe the CIA was so inept that they didn't know
> > the "terrorists" were flight training inside the US for 10 long years
> > to prepare for the attack?
>
> They weren't flight training for anything
> like 10 long years to prepare for the attack.
>
> And when so many others did get flight training in the US
> and never did anything like 9/11, its hardly surprising that the
> CIA didn't see it as anything to do with any terrorist activity.
>
> It wasn't even clear that when a plane of that size was flown
> into those buildings that they would implode like that either.
>
> > The result of that attack was the Iraq war that
> > has lasted for more than 10 years and counting.
>
> And Pearl Harbor didn't.

You are an idiot. Some of the flight schools tried to tip off the CIA
that some of the Arab students were suspicious, and that some of them
didn't seem to care about learning how to land the plane.

If the CIA didn't know about these people, how do you think the CIA
came up with all the idents of the attackers in just a few days?


9/11 was an Inside Job. Watch this and weep:
** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEU61Cw7VCo **

[Mighty Wannabe]

On May 23, 6:38 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:

> http://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/15/books/books-of-the-times-on-dec-7-d...

>
> The
>
> Straight Dope's thoughts on the matter:
>

> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1889/did-roosevelt-know-in-a...

>
> The
>
> long and the short of it: You're insisting something has been "proven"
> when you don't actually know the details, just a memory that there were
> charges made at some point in the past and that you think they were
> true.
>
> But your charges also don't make much sense. The CIA is not in charge
> of "all those records." The National Archives, the Navy and other
> organizations are in charge of most of them. There was no "crew at
> Pearl Harbor" -- there were multiple crews, as well as land-based
> forces, and they weren't all stood down. And not all the relevant
> documents were declassified in the 80s or 90s -- some are still
> classiffied today.
>
> Since your response is to insult those who don't take your vague,
> ill-referenced and poorly-phrased word for it, I doubt any of this will
> have much affect on your fervent belief, but maybe it'll encourage
> others to take your claims with a grain of salt.
>
> kdb

I am not surprised that the USA is in a sorry state it is in today.
Look at your mirror and you can see a citizenry of fools who would
gladly swallow their government's lies, hook, line, and sinker.

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2013-05-23 22:50:10 +0000, Mighty Wannabe <mightw...@gmail.com> said:

> On May 23, 6:38 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>> Since your response is to insult those who don't take your vague,

>> ill-referenced and poorly-phrased word for it....

>
> I am not surprised that the USA is in a sorry state it is in today.
> Look at your mirror and you can see a citizenry of fools who would
> gladly swallow their government's lies, hook, line, and sinker.

I called that one, eh?

One wonders how many people Mighty sees in his mirror. And how many of
them are talking in his head at once.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

James Silverton <not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote in
news:knm4rc$kfq$2...@dont-email.me:

The lastest is that the Oklahoma tornadoes were deliberately caused
by Obama's weather control machines.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote in
news:knm6k2$u34$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 2013-05-23 22:50:10 +0000, Mighty Wannabe
> <mightw...@gmail.com> said:
>
>> On May 23, 6:38 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>>> Since your response is to insult those who don't take your
>>> vague, ill-referenced and poorly-phrased word for it....
>>
>> I am not surprised that the USA is in a sorry state it is in
>> today. Look at your mirror and you can see a citizenry of fools
>> who would gladly swallow their government's lies, hook, line,
>> and sinker.
>
> I called that one, eh?

One cannot help but wonder, with a nym like "MIghty Wannabe," just
exactly *what* he wants to be.

>
> One wonders how many people Mighty sees in his mirror. And how
> many of them are talking in his head at once.

http://www.despair.com/madness.html

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <933e0662-6d77-427e...@fz1g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,

It might not make that much difference, because the USN's
aircraft carriers were all out on maneuvers and weren't damaged
-- and the Pacific war was fought mostly by aircraft launched
from carriers.

You COULD be court-martialed because you obviously had advance
knowledge of the attack.

Remember that an EM reported a unknown flight coming in toward
Pearl and his officer said Nonsense, it couldn't be.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 17:53:26 -0400, Scott Fluhrer
<sflu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
<news:1369345978.24687@rcdn-nntpcache-3> in
rec.martial-arts,soc.history.what-if,alt.military,rec.arts.sf.written:

Won't work: its name then was 'Cleveland School of Art'.

Brian

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 16:43:00 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:XnsA1C9AA0D8D2...@69.16.186.7> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> One cannot help but wonder, with a nym like "MIghty
> Wannabe," just exactly *what* he wants to be.

Mickey Mouse?

Brian

[Dimensional Traveler]

Its secret existence early is part of the conspiracy.

--
The 'Enterprise' crew in the 2009 Star Trek are adrenaline addicted,
hyper-active teenagers with ADD whose Ritalin got replaced with
methamphetamine, displaying a level of discipline that a Somali pirate
wouldn't tolerate.

[Moriarty]

On May 24, 7:45 am, Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 May 2013 15:35:08 -0600, David Johnston wrote:
> > On 5/23/2013 2:48 PM, Mighty Wannabe wrote:

<snip>

> >> The crew at Pearl Harbour were ordered to stand down the day before the
> >> attack. If you have been paying attention, the "sneak attack" was not a
> >> sneak attack. CIA declassified documents have proven that the US knew
> >> the Japanese fleet were crossing the Pacific during a typhoon to attack
> >> Pearl Harbour,
>
> > That's fascinating.  Particularly since the CIA didn't exist yet.
>
> That's the OFFICIAL story.
>
> The CIA was actually founded in 93 billion BC, well before our universe
> was constructed.

Aha! Now it all makes sense: K-T was an inside job.

-Moriarty

[Shawn Wilson]

On May 23, 1:48 pm, Mighty Wannabe <mightwann...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The crew at Pearl Harbour were ordered to stand down the day before
> the attack.

It was, you know, a WEEKEND in PEACETIME...

> If you have been paying attention, the "sneak attack" was
> not a sneak attack.

They looked pretty surprised to me...

> CIA declassified documents have proven that the US
> knew the Japanese fleet were crossing the Pacific during a typhoon to
> attack Pearl Harbour,

No, they didn't. The US 'knew' the Japanese fleet was in port...

> and that the US also lied about not knowing the
> Japanese had already declared war on the US three days before the
> attack.

Wow, that's AMAZING, because not even the Japanese knew that...

> The "Pearl Harbour" tragedy was what the politicians were
> preying for to get the US sheeple riled up to declare war and join
> WWII.

There was no WWII to join... There was Germany messing around in
Europe, which FDR DID want the US in on, and Japan messing around in
China, which FDR did NOT want the US in on because it would distract
from Germany.

And, really, if they knew an attack was coming and wanted a war
anyway, why not alert the fleet in advace SO IT WOULDN'T BE SUNK???

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 20:25:06 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>>> That's fascinating. Particularly since the CIA didn't exist yet.
>
>> Perhaps he was referring to the Cleveland Institute of Art...
>
>Won't work: its name then was 'Cleveland School of Art'.

Thus providing a perfect cover for their secret work for Jefferson
Davis and his successors...

[J. Clarke]

In article <ylfksj1d...@dd-b.net>, dd...@dd-b.net says...

>
> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,
> > Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at
> > Battleship Row. What do you do?
> >

> > Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,
> > after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?
>

> Do you have the authority to do that on your own? (Might be worth doing
> even without, if the rest of the officers will go along.)
>
> One argument is that, the way things played out, we won, so it's best
> not to mess with it. Especially since the absence of battleships was a
> key point in swinging the power to the carrier admirals, who were in
> fact mostly right.

There's also the issue of the fuel depot. The Japanese didn't attack
that. Take away one of their primary targets and they migth have gone
after the fuel depot instead. Destroy that and the US would have been
crippled far more thoroughly than by the damaging or destruction of a
few obsolete warships.

In any case, Pennsylvania took light damage and remained in service.
Maryland and Tennessee were back in service in two months. Arizona and
Oklahoma were the only US battleships involved in the attack that did
not return to service.

> > There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. Or
> > perhaps it's already been done -
>

> Alternately -- there's an amusing hack for trying to enlist
> Lt. R.A. Heinlein (ret.) and his contacts. By 1942 he's been publishing
> SF three years, and is going to have a lot of the next few years ideas
> in his head. Use your knowledge of what he's going to write to convince
> him you really are from the future, and then he can try to convince navy
> people to prepare for the attack. (This obviously goes against the
> argument that messing with the outcome might not do what you think.)

[J. Clarke]

In article <eac67f5f-988c-407a-990d-
d62301...@j7g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>, mightw...@gmail.com
says...

Hey, Wannabee, the reason you aren't Mighty is that you never saw a
conspiracy theory you didn't like. Overuse of "watch this pile of
bullshit and weep" doesn't help.

<plonk>

[J. Clarke]

In article <fe854261-f51c-4fe2-b1af-9780e75125c1
@d6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, pete...@gmail.com says...
>
> On May 23, 3:49ï¿œpm, Anthony Buckland <anthonybucklandnos...@telus.net>

> wrote:
> > On 23/05/2013 11:49 AM, RichD wrote:
> >

> > > You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,

> > > Dec. 2, 1941. ï¿œYou command a battleship, moored at
> > > Battleship Row. ï¿œWhat do you do?

> >
> > Assuming that's "command", not "commandeer", about the
> > best you can try is to convince the Admiral that you
> > have a premonition (fat chance) or intelligence (which
> > you would be commanded to produce) that an attack
> > will take place.
> >

> > > Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,

> > > after midnight, Dec. 7. ï¿œHow does that play out?
> >
> > Without orders? ï¿œYou will be immediately arrested.

> > Your XO, if told in time, will assume command and

> > return to the ship's berth. ï¿œYou will witness the

> > attack, if at all, by dull sounds reaching the ship's

> > brig. ï¿œIf the ship gets back to port before the

> > attack and is the Arizona, you will doubtless die
> > by water or perhaps fire or physical wounds.
> >
> > Your time machine, OTOH, will be of great interest

> > if found after the invasion fears die down. ï¿œNow

> > _there's_ an interesting possibility.
> >
> >
> >

> > > There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. ï¿œOr

> > > perhaps it's already been done -
> >

> > Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes.
>

> WIthout orders, you *could* order extra lookouts, call battlestations,
> put your anti-aircraft and fire damage control crews on alert.

Bring up steam on all boilers, set special sea detail, be ready to get
under way at the first fall of a bomb . . .

> At
> best, you might be able to report the approaching attack in time to
> make some difference, and knock down some of the topedo bombers before
> the released their weapons. At worst, you'd save the lives of many of
> your crew
>
> pt

[Will in New Haven]

Neither am I, since you are a voter.

The brutal truth about intelligence work is that the information one
needs is almost always there but it is contained in a pile of other,
sometimes directly contradictory information, so it is often missed.

The brutal truth about the internet is that you won't shut up.

--
Will in New Haven

[Kurt Busiek]

Mighty is apparently a Canoodian. Perhaps he's the balance to the
US-worshipping Quadibloc.

> The brutal truth about intelligence work is that the information one
> needs is almost always there but it is contained in a pile of other,
> sometimes directly contradictory information, so it is often missed.

Conspiracy theorists are big on the idea that if the information
existed somewhere, the person they want to accuse of bad bad things
must have been aware of it, because people they don't like and their
underlings are simultaneously incompetent and superhumanly efficient.

[Jim G.]

J. Clarke sent the following on 5/24/2013 6:34 AM:

In cases like this, the fun is in trying to guess which group brought
the idiot with it. I'm gonna drop the two most likely culprits from my
replies.

--
Jim G. | A fan of good reading, good writing, and fellow bookworms
http://www.goodreads.com/jimgysin/
http://www.librarything.com/home/jimgysin

[Jim G.]

David Johnston sent the following on 5/23/2013 4:35 PM:

> On 5/23/2013 2:48 PM, Mighty Wannabe wrote:

>> On May 23, 3:49 pm, Anthony Buckland <anthonybucklandnos...@telus.net>

>> wrote:
>>> On 23/05/2013 11:49 AM, RichD wrote:
>>>
>>>> You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,

>>>> Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at
>>>> Battleship Row. What do you do?

>>>
>>> Assuming that's "command", not "commandeer", about the
>>> best you can try is to convince the Admiral that you
>>> have a premonition (fat chance) or intelligence (which
>>> you would be commanded to produce) that an attack
>>> will take place.
>>>
>>>> Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,

>>>> after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?
>>>
>>> Without orders? You will be immediately arrested.

>>> Your XO, if told in time, will assume command and

>>> return to the ship's berth. You will witness the

>>> attack, if at all, by dull sounds reaching the ship's

>>> brig. If the ship gets back to port before the

>>> attack and is the Arizona, you will doubtless die
>>> by water or perhaps fire or physical wounds.
>>>
>>> Your time machine, OTOH, will be of great interest

>>> if found after the invasion fears die down. Now

>>> _there's_ an interesting possibility.
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>>> There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. Or

>>>> perhaps it's already been done -
>>>
>>> Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>>> --
>>>> Rich

>>
>>
>> The crew at Pearl Harbour were ordered to stand down the day before
>> the attack. If you have been paying attention, the "sneak attack" was
>> not a sneak attack. CIA declassified documents have proven that the US
>> knew the Japanese fleet were crossing the Pacific during a typhoon to
>> attack Pearl Harbour,
>
> That's fascinating. Particularly since the CIA didn't exist yet.

To be fair to the idiot, though, the CIA *did* inherit a lot of the
records of its predecessor, so it probably *would* be the CIA that would
release any such records if they existed. Of course, that doesn't change
the fact that this guy is an idiot.

[Jim G.]

The Horny Goat sent the following on 5/24/2013 2:09 AM:

It's the Culinary Institute of America. They heard about the attacks and
held a bake sale to raise money for the victims.

[Christian Weisgerber]

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:

> One argument is that, the way things played out, we won, so it's best
> not to mess with it.

I seem to vaguely recall a time travel story... by S. Andrew Swann?...
where somebody killed (nuked?) Hitler and the outcome was very,
very bad.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[Rich Rostrom]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

> It might not make that much difference, because the USN's

> aircraft carriers were all out on maneuvers...

Not maneuvers, aircraft ferru missions.
On the morning of 12/7:

ENTERPRISE was returning to Pearl Harbor from
a mission to ferry aircraft to Wake Island.

LEXINGTON was two days out on a ferry mission
to Midway Island.

SARATOGA was in San Diego, re-embarking her
air group after refits in Seattle.

RANGER, YORKTOWN, HORNET, and WASP were all
in the Atlantic.

BTW, ENTERPRISE was due back in PH on the
evening of 12/6; but had to slow down due
to heavy weather.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2013-05-24 17:16:38 +0000, "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> said:

> David Johnston sent the following on 5/23/2013 4:35 PM:

>> That's fascinating. Particularly since the CIA didn't exist yet.
>
> To be fair to the idiot, though, the CIA *did* inherit a lot of the
> records of its predecessor, so it probably *would* be the CIA that
> would release any such records if they existed.

The Navy had a lot of them. And other groups. Most of them wouldn't
come from the CIA.

> Of course, that doesn't change the fact that this guy is an idiot.

FDR was secretly behind causing him to be an idiot, too.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in
news:1xde5mxvue6f7.7...@40tude.net:

Goofy'd be more his speed. Or Dumbo.

[david.sh...@ymail.com]

On May 24, 1:16 pm, "Jim G." <jimgy...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

>
> In cases like this, the fun is in trying to guess which group brought
> the idiot with it. I'm gonna drop the two most likely culprits from my
> replies.

Oh, Wannabe-kun is clearly in from rec.martial-arts.
Google up his posting history.


And on something like the original question, I don't think
anything could have been done at such a late date to prevent
war from breaking out between the US and Japan. Maybe Alien
Space Bats could have pulled it off. A time traveler from
the 21st century couldn't.

[J. Clarke]

In article <a1b490a7-53ae-4dad-afc7-69c699eb2e77
@bz1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, david.sh...@ymail.com says...

Prevent war no. Change the outcome, not likely unless he's able to
deliver a fully laden B-52 squadron to Hitler or something. Make major
changes in the details, yes.

[William Hyde]

On May 24, 12:09 pm, na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:

> David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
> > One argument is that, the way things played out, we won, so it's best
> > not to mess with it.
>
> I seem to vaguely recall a time travel story... by S. Andrew Swann?...
> where somebody killed (nuked?) Hitler and the outcome was very,
> very bad.

In Steven Fry's "Making History" a well-intentioned person with access
to a handy time machine prevents Hitler from being born. It does not
turn out at all well.

William Hyde

[David Johnston]

It never does.

[pyotr filipivich]

RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> on Thu, 23 May 2013 11:49:17 -0700
(PDT) typed in soc.history.what-if the following:

>You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,
>Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at
>Battleship Row. What do you do?
>

>Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,
>after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?

Badly. Your career is over - and just as the war is about to
start.

Better yet, decide to hold an air raid drill 0735 Sunday morning.

>
>There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. Or
>perhaps it's already been done -

--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.

[pyotr filipivich]

William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> on Fri, 24 May 2013 12:12:01 -0700

(PDT) typed in soc.history.what-if the following:

"Foresight War." War Historian finds himself in 1930's England,
with his laptop. Does the Patriotic/Humanitarian thing.
Only to discover that the Nazis have their own Futerian "expert"

[The Horny Goat]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 06:36:28 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<jclark...@cox.net> wrote:

>In any case, Pennsylvania took light damage and remained in service.
>Maryland and Tennessee were back in service in two months. Arizona and
>Oklahoma were the only US battleships involved in the attack that did
>not return to service.

Well legally the Arizona is still in service (and I have seen it when
visiting Pearl Harbor) but obviously I know what you mean.

HMS Victory (Nelson's flagship) is legally still in service but it
wasn't sent on overseas duty in 1982 vs the Argentinians or to Kuwait
in 1991 either!

[Taki Kogoma]

On 2013-05-24, Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com>
allegedly proclaimed to rec.arts.sf.written:

That's just the cover story you were fed. The real culprit was Winston
Churchill.

--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) quirk @ swcp.com
Just an article detector on the Information Supercollider.

[Anthony Buckland]

On 24/05/2013 10:16 AM, Jim G. wrote:
> David Johnston sent the following on 5/23/2013 4:35 PM:
>> On 5/23/2013 2:48 PM, Mighty Wannabe wrote:

>> ... [hope I got the snip ok] ...

>>> The crew at Pearl Harbour were ordered to stand down the day before
>>> the attack. If you have been paying attention, the "sneak attack" was
>>> not a sneak attack. CIA declassified documents have proven that the US
>>> knew the Japanese fleet were crossing the Pacific during a typhoon to
>>> attack Pearl Harbour,
>>
>> That's fascinating. Particularly since the CIA didn't exist yet.
>
> To be fair to the idiot, though, the CIA *did* inherit a lot of the
> records of its predecessor, so it probably *would* be the CIA that would
> release any such records if they existed. Of course, that doesn't change
> the fact that this guy is an idiot.
>

The CIA came from part of the OSS, which also didn't
technically exist on the date of the attack. The
relations between the OSS and other agencies are
fascinating, as are the OSS' operations. Well worth
googling if you don't already know (as I didn't, except
in the broadest sense).

[ppint. at pplay]

- hi; in article, <slrnkpvq5i...@tenma.swcp.com>,
qu...@tenma.swcp.com "Taki Kogoma" confided:

>Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> allegedly proclaimed to rec.arts.sf.written:

>> Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> said:
>>> David Johnston sent the following:

>>>> That's fascinating. Particularly since the CIA didn't exist yet.
>>> To be fair to the idiot, though, the CIA *did* inherit a lot of the
>>> records of its predecessor, so it probably *would* be the CIA that
>>> would release any such records if they existed.
>>
>> The Navy had a lot of them. And other groups. Most of them wouldn't
>> come from the CIA.

>>> Of course, that doesn't change the fact that this guy is an idiot.
>> FDR was secretly behind causing him to be an idiot, too.
>
>That's just the cover story you were fed. The real culprit was Winston
>Churchill.

- churchill was a _fed?_

- love, a ppint. as understood the two never co-operated
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"i'm close to the point where i can't
oppress my inner feminist anymore..."
- annushka on #afp, 23:17 +0100 12/5/02 (5/12/02 for merkins)

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 5/24/2013 4:34 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <fe854261-f51c-4fe2-b1af-9780e75125c1
> @d6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, pete...@gmail.com says...
>>

>> On May 23, 3:49 pm, Anthony Buckland <anthonybucklandnos...@telus.net>

>> wrote:
>>> On 23/05/2013 11:49 AM, RichD wrote:
>>>
>>>> You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,

>>>> Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at
>>>> Battleship Row. What do you do?

>>>
>>> Assuming that's "command", not "commandeer", about the
>>> best you can try is to convince the Admiral that you
>>> have a premonition (fat chance) or intelligence (which
>>> you would be commanded to produce) that an attack
>>> will take place.
>>>
>>>> Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,

>>>> after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?
>>>
>>> Without orders? You will be immediately arrested.

>>> Your XO, if told in time, will assume command and

>>> return to the ship's berth. You will witness the

>>> attack, if at all, by dull sounds reaching the ship's

>>> brig. If the ship gets back to port before the

>>> attack and is the Arizona, you will doubtless die
>>> by water or perhaps fire or physical wounds.
>>>
>>> Your time machine, OTOH, will be of great interest

>>> if found after the invasion fears die down. Now

>>> _there's_ an interesting possibility.
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>>> There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. Or

>>>> perhaps it's already been done -
>>>
>>> Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes.
>>
>> WIthout orders, you *could* order extra lookouts, call battlestations,
>> put your anti-aircraft and fire damage control crews on alert.
>
> Bring up steam on all boilers, set special sea detail, be ready to get
> under way at the first fall of a bomb . . .
>

By which point it is too late.

--
The 'Enterprise' crew in the 2009 Star Trek are adrenaline addicted,
hyper-active teenagers with ADD whose Ritalin got replaced with
methamphetamine, displaying a level of discipline that a Somali pirate
wouldn't tolerate.

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 5/24/2013 1:50 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Fri, 24 May 2013 06:36:28 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <jclark...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> In any case, Pennsylvania took light damage and remained in service.
>> Maryland and Tennessee were back in service in two months. Arizona and
>> Oklahoma were the only US battleships involved in the attack that did
>> not return to service.
>
> Well legally the Arizona is still in service (and I have seen it when
> visiting Pearl Harbor) but obviously I know what you mean.
>

Interesting. How do they reconcile that with it also being a registered
grave site?

[JRStern]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 11:49:17 -0700 (PDT), RichD
<r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,
>Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at
>Battleship Row. What do you do?
>

>Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,
>after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?
>

>There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. Or
>perhaps it's already been done -

One battleship couldn't stop the planes or make much counterattack.

Now, if you got there a few days earlier and could go out and
intercept the Japanese carriers and fleet, and radio in that they were
there so the whole base was prepared, well then. And if you even
survived the experience, all the better but it would seem unlikely.

Unless you believe the darker conspiracy theorists that TPTB wanted
the attack, or at least wanted not to prevent it.

J.

[Joseph Nebus]

In <4390q8hut9og045c6...@4ax.com> JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid> writes:

>Now, if you got there a few days earlier and could go out and
>intercept the Japanese carriers and fleet, and radio in that they were
>there so the whole base was prepared, well then. And if you even
>survived the experience, all the better but it would seem unlikely.

>Unless you believe the darker conspiracy theorists that TPTB wanted
>the attack, or at least wanted not to prevent it.

Why is it always Pearl Harbor? Why don't time travellers ever
fiddle about with the attack on the Philippines? And are we *ever*
going to see the Eternals do something about the Japanese attack on
Kamchatka so the Soviets stand a chance against Germany? --
http://nebusresearch.wordpress.com/ Joseph Nebus
Latest: Reading the Comics, 16 May 2013 http://wp.me/p1RYhY-sf
--------------------------------------------------------+---------------------

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 5/24/13 9:06 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 5/24/2013 1:50 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 May 2013 06:36:28 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>> <jclark...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In any case, Pennsylvania took light damage and remained in service.
>>> Maryland and Tennessee were back in service in two months. Arizona and
>>> Oklahoma were the only US battleships involved in the attack that did
>>> not return to service.
>>
>> Well legally the Arizona is still in service (and I have seen it when
>> visiting Pearl Harbor) but obviously I know what you mean.
>>
> Interesting. How do they reconcile that with it also being a registered
> grave site?
>
>

The world's only naval vessel crewed exclusively by zombies?


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[J. Clarke]

In article <knpbmd$hdk$1...@reader1.panix.com>, nebusj-@-rpi-.edu says...

> And are we *ever*
> going to see the Eternals do something about the Japanese attack on
> Kamchatka so the Soviets stand a chance against Germany?

?!?!?!?! In what way did the Soviets not "stand a chance against
Germany"? The main effect of the Normandy invasion was to stop the
Soviet advance before it got to the Atlantic.

[pyotr filipivich]

The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> on Fri, 24 May 2013 13:50:06 -0700

typed in soc.history.what-if the following:

The USS Constitution ("Old Ironsides") is still on the active duty
list. Only frigate still active, but ... a duty assignment still the
same.

[The Horny Goat]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 13:34:48 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
wrote:

I dunno - when I was in my teens (late 1970s / early 80s) Superman
comics did several time travel stories where Superman went back and
try as he might the past could not be permanently changed and in one
of them he tried and failed to save both his Kryptonian parents and
the Kents. In those stories causality was just too great.

[The Horny Goat]

Notwithstanding the fact that logistically the Japanese would have had
huge problems EVEN WITH NO SOVIET RESISTANCE AT ALL reaching a stop
line between 128E and 141E longitude which were the two suggested
German and Japanese 'fantasy' demarcation lines between Germany and
Japan in Siberia.

Even grabbing as much Siberian territory as Japan managed to grab in
the Russian Civil War (i.e. everything east of Lake Baikal) would have
been a major achievement facing Soviet opposition and while losing
everything east of Baikal no doubt would have hurt the Soviet cause I
don't see that being a war-winning scenario for Germany.

[David DeLaney]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HitlersTimeTravelExemptionAct

Dave, the usual warning, following this link will change your future
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://panacea.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ/ I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

On 2013-05-25, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
> Even grabbing as much Siberian territory as Japan managed to grab in
> the Russian Civil War (i.e. everything east of Lake Baikal) would have
> been a major achievement facing Soviet opposition and while losing
> everything east of Baikal no doubt would have hurt the Soviet cause I
> don't see that being a war-winning scenario for Germany.

Plus there's that whole "land war in Asia" thing...

Dave, so clearly I cannot take the future in front of ME

[Kip Williams]

The Horny Goat wrote, On 5/25/13 2:28 AM:

Superboy for a while had a hobby of going back and trying unsuccessfully
to save Lincoln. Oddly enough, I seem to remember that this manifested
itself right after his adult self failed to save JFK.


Kip W
rasfw

[Allen W. McDonnell]

"Joseph Nebus" <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote in message
news:knpbmd$hdk$1...@reader1.panix.com...

My favorite butterfly what if, what if the Panay managed to kill some of the
Japanese pilots who later attacked Pearl Harbor? If a key pilot is killed
the attack on PH might have been planned differently, and the planners might
have expected different results.

[Bill]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 19:43:09 -0700, JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid>
wrote:

>On Thu, 23 May 2013 11:49:17 -0700 (PDT), RichD
><r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,
>>Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at
>>Battleship Row. What do you do?
>>
>>Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,
>>after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?
>>
>>There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. Or
>>perhaps it's already been done -
>
>One battleship couldn't stop the planes or make much counterattack.
>

Probably the best move would be to find the commanding admiral one
evening in the officer's club and say:

"'The men are rusty on AA drill sir, I think we should have a fleet
wide AA drill at dawn one Sunday morning when nobody is expecting it,
keep them at it for hours and make it seem real, issue live
ammunition and everything, I'll organise it, December 7th sound OK to
you?..."

Then sit back and await promotion and medals...

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kno3br$2lkn$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:

> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>
> > One argument is that, the way things played out, we won, so it's best
> > not to mess with it.
>
> I seem to vaguely recall a time travel story... by S. Andrew Swann?...
> where somebody killed (nuked?) Hitler and the outcome was very,
> very bad.

<http://joyreactor.com/post/700903>

SMBC guy returns after killing *Hartler*.

--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx

[Walter Bushell]

In article <LK2dncyrsd6WEwPM...@iphouse.net>,
Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 23 May 2013 15:35:08 -0600, David Johnston wrote:
>
> > On 5/23/2013 2:48 PM, Mighty Wannabe wrote:

> >> On May 23, 3:49 pm, Anthony Buckland <anthonybucklandnos...@telus.net>
> >> wrote:

> >>> On 23/05/2013 11:49 AM, RichD wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,
> >>>> Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at Battleship Row.
> >>>> What do you do?
> >>>

> >>> Assuming that's "command", not "commandeer", about the best you can
> >>> try is to convince the Admiral that you have a premonition (fat
> >>> chance) or intelligence (which you would be commanded to produce) that
> >>> an attack will take place.
> >>>

> >>>> Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,
> >>>> after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?
> >>>

> >>> Without orders? You will be immediately arrested. Your XO, if told in
> >>> time, will assume command and return to the ship's berth. You will
> >>> witness the attack, if at all, by dull sounds reaching the ship's
> >>> brig. If the ship gets back to port before the attack and is the
> >>> Arizona, you will doubtless die by water or perhaps fire or physical
> >>> wounds.
> >>>
> >>> Your time machine, OTOH, will be of great interest if found after the
> >>> invasion fears die down. Now _there's_ an interesting possibility.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>

> >>>> There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. Or perhaps it's
> >>>> already been done -
> >>>

> >>> Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes.
> >>

> >> The crew at Pearl Harbour were ordered to stand down the day before the
> >> attack. If you have been paying attention, the "sneak attack" was not a
> >> sneak attack. CIA declassified documents have proven that the US knew
> >> the Japanese fleet were crossing the Pacific during a typhoon to attack
> >> Pearl Harbour,
> >

> > That's fascinating. Particularly since the CIA didn't exist yet.
>

> That's the OFFICIAL story.
>
> The CIA was actually founded in 93 billion BC, well before our universe
> was constructed.

Yep, they signed the contract to cause the Big Bang.

[J. Clarke]

In article <msa1q85nm17ok4id5...@4ax.com>,
black...@gmail.com says...

Wouldn't really have made much difference. The AA armament on US
warships at the time was woefully inadequate What was needed was
fighter cover. Arrange a practice scramble and gunnery exercise for
7:30 AM Sunday and the Japanese might have ended up having a very bad
day. For that you need to get to General Short, not Admiral Kimmel.

Or, Hell, just kick short in the butt hard enough to get him to get his
B-17s out flying patrols. As a matter of pure bad luck the PBY that was
supposed to cover the sector in which the Japanese were approaching had
some kind of mechanical problem and wasn't where it was supposed to be.
If Short had been conducting his own patrols there would have been
double coverage and that wouldn't have happened.

Now, you really want to ruin the Japanese' day? Contrive to put a
radar-equipped PBY on the island. Load it and its 61 brethren with
torpedoes and use it as a pathfinder. Put 124 torpedoes into their
formation about two hours before sunrise. Go home and leave them
wondering what the Hell happened.

And yes, there were radar-equipped PBYs in existence in December, 1941,
and yes, they could successfully conduct night torpedo attacks.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kejvp8dubs6v8djk0...@4ax.com>,

pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> pyotr filipivich.
> For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
> several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.

Contact me for eggs laid by the Holy Sprit as a dove.

There once was a man from Dijon,
Who could not understand religion.
He said, "Oh my God,
Those 3 are so odd,
The Father, the Son and the Pigeon.

[Raymond Daley]

"William Hyde" <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:77528fe0-3b78-45db...@b2g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
On May 24, 12:09 pm, na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:

> David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
> > One argument is that, the way things played out, we won, so it's best
> > not to mess with it.
>
> I seem to vaguely recall a time travel story... by S. Andrew Swann?...
> where somebody killed (nuked?) Hitler and the outcome was very,
> very bad.

In Steven Fry's "Making History" a well-intentioned person with access
to a handy time machine prevents Hitler from being born. It does not
turn out at all well.

It never does William. I've never read a "time traveller kills Hitler" that
DOES result in a good outcome.
Heck, even in my own ebook "The Sniper", killing Hitler in WW1 (because
EVERYONE tries to kill him during WW2, BORING!) results in one mad scientist
escaping the WW2 death camps and creates a global plague that kills 90% of
the population and causes massive currency devaluation.
.
(Available in all formats on Smashwords & Feedbooks for the price of NO
MONEY AT ALL!)

[Robert Carnegie]

On Thursday, 23 May 2013 19:49:17 UTC+1, RichD wrote:
> You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,
> Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at
> Battleship Row. What do you do?
>
> Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,
> after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?
>
> There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. Or
> perhaps it's already been done -

Some comments imply that Pearl Harbor wasn't such a big
deal militarily. Maybe it was just, you know, the infamy.

This week apparently a soldier was hacked to death in a
London street by terrorists; it's been most of the
British news for days. But I think if they hadn't /said/
that they were terrorists - apparently they spoke at
length to passers-by until the police came and shot them
(shot the terrorists, not the passers-by, and not shot
dead) - people outside London might have never heard
about it. Maybe you haven't; a lot else has happened
this week.

And terrorism doesn't work if people don't hear about it!

[Raymond Daley]

"Joseph Nebus" <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote in message
news:knpbmd$hdk$1...@reader1.panix.com...

> Why is it always Pearl Harbor? Why don't time travellers ever
> fiddle about with the attack on the Philippines? And are we *ever*
> going to see the Eternals do something about the Japanese attack on
> Kamchatka so the Soviets stand a chance against Germany?

I'd much rather see history changed by dropping nukes on Iwo Jima rather
than going for the foolish and lethal land attacks.

[Raymond Daley]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:knpc4l$von$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 5/24/13 9:06 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 5/24/2013 1:50 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 May 2013 06:36:28 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>>> <jclark...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In any case, Pennsylvania took light damage and remained in service.
>>>> Maryland and Tennessee were back in service in two months. Arizona and
>>>> Oklahoma were the only US battleships involved in the attack that did
>>>> not return to service.
>>>
>>> Well legally the Arizona is still in service (and I have seen it when
>>> visiting Pearl Harbor) but obviously I know what you mean.
>>>
>> Interesting. How do they reconcile that with it also being a registered
>> grave site?
>>
>>
>
> The world's only naval vessel crewed exclusively by zombies?

Google The Black Pearl ;-P

[Raymond Daley]

"David Dyer-Bennet" <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote in message
news:ylfksj1d...@dd-b.net...
>
> Alternately -- there's an amusing hack for trying to enlist
> Lt. R.A. Heinlein (ret.) and his contacts. By 1942 he's been publishing
> SF three years, and is going to have a lot of the next few years ideas
> in his head. Use your knowledge of what he's going to write to convince
> him you really are from the future, and then he can try to convince navy
> people to prepare for the attack. (This obviously goes against the
> argument that messing with the outcome might not do what you think.)

Been done, I've read it.
The guy screws the timeline so badly by going back to meet Heinlein that the
funding for the time machine never comes about in the first place. Can't
recall the title but it's a good little short story.

[Raymond Daley]

"Raymond Daley" <raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:0Q4ot.70523$cU4....@fx02.am4...

Damn, I picked the wrong ship. All those POTC movies and my memory failed
me.
Getting old I guess.
It was The Flying Dutchman. Arse ;-P

[lal_truckee]

On 5/24/13 4:37 PM, ppint. at pplay wrote:

> - churchill was a _fed?_

He was an American mole, planted before his birth.

[The Horny Goat]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 16:27:31 +0100, "Raymond Daley"
<raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>It never does William. I've never read a "time traveller kills Hitler" that
>DOES result in a good outcome.
>Heck, even in my own ebook "The Sniper", killing Hitler in WW1 (because
>EVERYONE tries to kill him during WW2, BORING!) results in one mad scientist
>escaping the WW2 death camps and creates a global plague that kills 90% of
>the population and causes massive currency devaluation.

Can we safely specify that most any major figure in history has had
numerous points where he or she might plausibly be removed?

For instance: Hitler - 1914-18 or in prison, JFK - after the sinking
of PT-109 where a shark gets lucky when he swims for it, Eisenhower or
Patton - too many for words, Napoleon - pretty much any time in his
life ... and so on?

It's just not that difficult to construct a plausible scenario
removing a key figure. It's harder keeping one there - for instance
does Chamberlain fall when he did if he doesn't have cancer?

[Rich Rostrom]

In article
<MPG.2c0a8cfe...@news.newsguy.com>,

"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> wrote:

> In article <msa1q85nm17ok4id5...@4ax.com>,
> black...@gmail.com says...
> >
> > On Fri, 24 May 2013 19:43:09 -0700, JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >On Thu, 23 May 2013 11:49:17 -0700 (PDT), RichD
> > ><r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>You climb into your time machine, go back to Pearl Harbor,
> > >>Dec. 2, 1941. You command a battleship, moored at
> > >>Battleship Row. What do you do?
> > >>
> > >>Suppose you decide to take her out for maneuvers,
> > >>after midnight, Dec. 7. How does that play out?
> > >>
> > >>There's a book here, waiting for a serious writer. Or
> > >>perhaps it's already been done -
> > >
> > >One battleship couldn't stop the planes or make much counterattack.
> > >
> >
> > Probably the best move would be to find the commanding admiral one
> > evening in the officer's club and say:
> >
> > "'The men are rusty on AA drill sir, I think we should have a fleet
> > wide AA drill at dawn one Sunday morning when nobody is expecting it,
> > keep them at it for hours and make it seem real, issue live
> > ammunition and everything, I'll organise it, December 7th sound OK to
> > you?..."
> >
> > Then sit back and await promotion and medals...
>
> Wouldn't really have made much difference. The AA armament on US

> warships at the time was woefully inadequate.

Inadequate for proper defense. But sufficient to put up
a lot of opposition to the Japanese attack. The second
wave attack was much less effective and took more
losses and damage than the first wave - one reason why
Nagumo didn't send a third wave. Where the first wave
came in unopposed, the second wave encountered what
seemed to them like very heavy fire. IIRC, the torpedo
bombers, trying to make low-level runs across the
harbor, got shot up _very_ badly.

What was needed was
> fighter cover. Arrange a practice scramble and gunnery exercise for
> 7:30 AM Sunday and the Japanese might have ended up having a very bad
> day. For that you need to get to General Short, not Admiral Kimmel.

Which is hopeless. Short had no clue about air operations.
One might persuade his air deputy; but the chance of an
Army airman taking suggestions from a battleship captain
is nil.

> Or, Hell, just kick short in the butt hard enough to get him to get his
> B-17s out flying patrols. As a matter of pure bad luck the PBY that was
> supposed to cover the sector in which the Japanese were approaching had
> some kind of mechanical problem and wasn't where it was supposed to be.

AFAIK, there were no PBYs assigned to patrol N of Oahu.
Pac Fleet didn't have enough PBYs for training ops _and_
270-360 degree patrols. The patrols that _were_ sent out
were sent south and east, toward the Japanese-held
Marshall Islands, and over the area where fleet maneuvers
were being held every few days and Japanese subs might
be lurking.

> If Short had been conducting his own patrols there would have been
> double coverage and that wouldn't have happened.

If the Army planes had been used on patrol, they would
have shared duties with the Navy, not run overlapping
patrols. Probably having extra aircraft would have
allowed additional patrols to cover the northern sector.
But I don't think the Army had many B-17s at Oahu; and
I doubt if they were trained for patrol operations.
(A long over-water flight wasn't trivial then; a lot
planes just disappeared on such missions.)

> Now, you really want to ruin the Japanese' day? Contrive to put a
> radar-equipped PBY on the island.

The U.S. had no airborne surface search radar in 1941.
The British had some early forms of it, but not very
good. Effective air-to-surface radar had wait for
for the strapped cavity magnetron to be fully developed
and put in production, which wasn't achieved until 1943.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com

[JRStern]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 11:13:34 -0500, Rich Rostrom
<rrostrom.2...@rcn.com> wrote:

>> If Short had been conducting his own patrols there would have been
>> double coverage and that wouldn't have happened.
>
>If the Army planes had been used on patrol, they would
>have shared duties with the Navy, not run overlapping
>patrols. Probably having extra aircraft would have
>allowed additional patrols to cover the northern sector.
>But I don't think the Army had many B-17s at Oahu; and
>I doubt if they were trained for patrol operations.
>(A long over-water flight wasn't trivial then; a lot
>planes just disappeared on such missions.)

Also we weren't at war. The Japanese fleet might have sailed quietly
to within five miles of shore and launched all their planes while
people watched from the beach, without the American forces firing at
them - for all we know. In fact, that's an alternate history setting
that might work for a story.

Practically it would be a mistake, of course, to be in clear sight of
the US capital ships - and any land-based artillery that was around, I
have no idea what existed. But good for a story.

J.

[David Johnston]

On 5/24/2013 10:37 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <knpbmd$hdk$1...@reader1.panix.com>, nebusj-@-rpi-.edu says...
>> And are we *ever*
>> going to see the Eternals do something about the Japanese attack on
>> Kamchatka so the Soviets stand a chance against Germany?
>
> ?!?!?!?! In what way did the Soviets not "stand a chance against
> Germany"?

He was doing the "posting from an alternate timeline" thing.

[JRStern]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 08:29:03 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>And terrorism doesn't work if people don't hear about it!

Well sure it does. I mean, mostly they will hear about it,
eventually. But if they don't hear about it you just keep it up until
all the enemies are dead.

You say it's not "terrorism" if everyone dies unaware? Well, perhaps,
but that rather loses sight of the larger picture, doesn't it?

J.

[Shawn Wilson]

On May 24, 10:35 pm, pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> >Well legally the Arizona is still in service (and I have seen it when
> >visiting Pearl Harbor) but obviously I know what you mean.
>
> >HMS Victory (Nelson's flagship) is legally still in service but it
> >wasn't sent on overseas duty in 1982 vs the Argentinians or to Kuwait
> >in 1991 either!
>
>         The USS Constitution ("Old Ironsides") is still on the active duty
> list.  Only frigate still active, but ... a duty assignment still the
> same.

And the Constitution still actually sails.... Maybe only a once a
year special occasion, but sails nonetheless.

[Kurt Busiek]

That was one of DC's (or at least the Superman books's) house rules
during that era. You couldn't change the past -- and in most of those
stories, if you traveled to an era of the past where you existed, you'd
be ghostly and couldn't be seen, heard or touched.

kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!

[Kurt Busiek]

Kenyan. Surreptitiously replaced during the Boer War.

[pyotr filipivich]

"Raymond Daley" <raymon...@ntlworld.com> on Sat, 25 May 2013
16:27:31 +0100 typed in soc.history.what-if the following:

I recall a story "Remembrance Day" or some such. Time Traveler
heads back to France, August 1914, and prevents the capture of Paris
and the French Capitulation. "No more would August 6th be remembered
as a day of sadness."
>
--

[The Horny Goat]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 10:20:46 -0700, Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com>
wrote:

>That was one of DC's (or at least the Superman books's) house rules
>during that era. You couldn't change the past -- and in most of those
>stories, if you traveled to an era of the past where you existed, you'd
>be ghostly and couldn't be seen, heard or touched.

As in any activity involving fiction one can make up the rules as one
goes - Heinlein's Lazarus Long did a good deal more than seeing,
hearing and touching his mother...

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 2013-05-25 11:27:31 -0400, Raymond Daley said:

> "William Hyde" <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:77528fe0-3b78-45db...@b2g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
> On May 24, 12:09 pm, na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
>> David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>>> One argument is that, the way things played out, we won, so it's best
>>> not to mess with it.
>>
>> I seem to vaguely recall a time travel story... by S. Andrew Swann?...
>> where somebody killed (nuked?) Hitler and the outcome was very,
>> very bad.
>
> In Steven Fry's "Making History" a well-intentioned person with access
> to a handy time machine prevents Hitler from being born. It does not
> turn out at all well.
>
> It never does William. I've never read a "time traveller kills Hitler"
> that DOES result in a good outcome.

"The Murderer," by Lawrence Watt-Evans -- the title character gets
stranded in the 1890s and makes a hobby of killing EVERYONE he knows is
going to do horrible things -- Hitler, Stalin, Gavrilo Prinzip, Pol
Pot, etc. We don't see a lot about the results (it's a short story),
but there was only one World War, in the 1920s...



--
Now available on Amazon or B&N: One-Eyed Jack.
Greg Kraft could see ghosts. That didn't mean he could stop them...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1466291532/

[Kurt Busiek]

Lazarus Long was not a character in the Superman books of that era, and
as such wasn't subject to those rules in the first place.

[Bradipus]

William Hyde, 21:12, venerd� 24 maggio 2013:

> On May 24, 12:09�pm, na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
> wrote:
>> David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>> > One argument is that, the way things played out, we won, so
>> > it's best not to mess with it.
>>
>> I seem to vaguely recall a time travel story... by S. Andrew
>> Swann?... where somebody killed (nuked?) Hitler and the
>> outcome was very, very bad.
>
> In Steven Fry's "Making History" a well-intentioned person
> with access
> to a handy time machine prevents Hitler from being born. It
> does not turn out at all well.
>

> William Hyde


I remember I read many years ago a short story of a few Jews
that make a time machine and send one of them in the past to
kill Hitler and he goes and then he comes back in his time but
I can't remember how it ends.
Maybe by Asimov?


--
o o

[ppint. at pplay]

lal_truckee alleged:

>ppint. at pplay wrote:
>> - churchill was a _fed?_
>
>He was an American mole, planted before his birth.

- "i blame the parents..."

- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"but i believe the figure of one and one sixteenth
will be sufficiently accurate for poetry"
- charles babbage, writing to correct the second half of tennyson's line,
"every moment dies a man; every moment one is born"

[Robert Carnegie]

Of course. He was in Superboy, posing as Abraham Lincoln.

But with a name like that, he has to be in there somewhere.

Hmm, I don't really do anagrams, but I think I just noticed
Lincoln is one letter more than Nicoll.

That probably doesn't mean anything, does it?

On the other hand, there's "R.A.H." in Abraham.

[pyotr filipivich]

Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> on Sat, 25 May 2013 10:02:38 -0700
(PDT) typed in soc.history.what-if the following:

Ayup.

[pyotr filipivich]

"Raymond Daley" <raymon...@ntlworld.com> on Sat, 25 May 2013
16:32:39 +0100 typed in soc.history.what-if the following:

"The Return of William Proxmire"
The Senator hatches a scheme to short circuit the "money wasters"
of Space Travel: goes back, and cures Lt j.g. Heinlein of his TB. Pops
back to the present - and the space program is about to head for mars,
under Admiral Heinlein's direction.

Oops.

There is a saying that when a culture is ready for railroading,
railroads will be invented.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

I don't recall the Pearl being a NAVAL vessel. The word "pirate" seems
to come up.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[The Horny Goat]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 11:04:08 -0700, Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com>

wrote:

>>> That was one of DC's (or at least the Superman books's) house rules
>>> during that era. You couldn't change the past -- and in most of those
>>> stories, if you traveled to an era of the past where you existed, you'd
>>> be ghostly and couldn't be seen, heard or touched.
>>
>> As in any activity involving fiction one can make up the rules as one
>> goes - Heinlein's Lazarus Long did a good deal more than seeing,
>> hearing and touching his mother...
>
>Lazarus Long was not a character in the Superman books of that era, and
>as such wasn't subject to those rules in the first place.

You have just made my original point which was that there were as many
"rules" of time travel as there are authors. Requiring different
authors to all write the same way to a standard code only works if
there is but a single publishing house and set of editors which much
as John Campbell might have wanted that it simply wasn't on!

[Bill]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 09:56:31 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<jclark...@cox.net> wrote:

>In article <msa1q85nm17ok4id5...@4ax.com>,
>black...@gmail.com says...
>>

>>

>> Probably the best move would be to find the commanding admiral one
>> evening in the officer's club and say:
>>
>> "'The men are rusty on AA drill sir, I think we should have a fleet
>> wide AA drill at dawn one Sunday morning when nobody is expecting it,
>> keep them at it for hours and make it seem real, issue live
>> ammunition and everything, I'll organise it, December 7th sound OK to
>> you?..."
>>
>> Then sit back and await promotion and medals...
>
>Wouldn't really have made much difference.

It would have made quite a bit of difference to those first wave
torpedo bombers who did a lot of damage.

Anyway, the promotion and medals would still turn up.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Wasn't that the basis of the whole Red Alert videogame series?

--
The 'Enterprise' crew in the 2009 Star Trek are adrenaline addicted,
hyper-active teenagers with ADD whose Ritalin got replaced with
methamphetamine, displaying a level of discipline that a Somali pirate
wouldn't tolerate.

[Anthony Buckland]

On 25/05/2013 10:42 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> ...

> I recall a story "Remembrance Day" or some such. Time Traveler
> heads back to France, August 1914, and prevents the capture of Paris
> and the French Capitulation. "No more would August 6th be remembered
> as a day of sadness."

An example of the theme, "Of course it's possible to go
back and change the past. We live in the future resulting
from those changes, and we'll never know what the future
would have been like without the changes. Unless, of
course, there are changes well-documented by the changers
at the time with an appendix describing the future we
never experienced. None of these documents are, however
believed or can be substantiated."