SF Fans Favorite Non SF Books
Mike Ralls
literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
"genre" books that you've read?
For me they would be:
"Mr. American" by George MacDonald Fraiser
An excellent book about England before WWII. Well researched as always
and has excellent characterization and plotline. It's the trip of an
American who became rich and went to England to discover his roots and
gets involved in English social life. Great ending that really put it
all together.
"Fight Club" by Chuck Palahniuk
This is what the movie was based on, and it's much better than the movie
which was excellent. I consider the book more realistic as well and
even though I know the "secret" it was still an excellent read. By the
end I could even see in my mind Tyler Durdon as someone other than Brad
Pitt.
"The Road To Wigan Pier" By George Orwell
A very touching account of the Great Depression in Britain. Orwell is
every conservative's favorite liberal and every liberal's favorite
conservative and that holds for me too. Orwell can WRITE, by god and he
gets so much right that I just envy his sense of perception.
But how about you? What are your favorite non "genre" books that you've
read recently? Also, I think this would be a cool award to give at some
con.
--
Mike Ralls
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Eden R.
"1984" by George Orwell -absolutely harrowing (actually maybe it is
in the genre..)
"Wuthering Heights" by Emily Bronte -spellbinding story of love which can
extend beyond the grave (actually...)
"The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Ecco - a whodunnit set in medieval Europe
(actually..)
"American Tabloid" by James Ellroy -smash talking crime fiction
Eden
Mike Ralls <MRa...@willamette.edu> wrote in message
news:93jd0f$7i4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Michael Hargreave Mawson
<MRa...@willamette.edu> writes
>Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
>literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
>"genre" books that you've read?
>
>For me they would be:
>
>"Mr. American" by George MacDonald Fraiser
>An excellent book about England before WWII.
ObNitPick: WWI
> Well researched as always
>and has excellent characterization and plotline. It's the trip of an
>American who became rich and went to England to discover his roots and
>gets involved in English social life. Great ending that really put it
>all together.
Congratulations on avoiding spoilers - but it is the <spoilers> that
really make this book come alive for me. GMcDF is probably my
favourite non-SF author, and makes me wonder whether historical fiction
is all that far from AH fiction - which itself is normally considered to
be part of SF.
I think that most of my favourite non-genre novels have elements in them
that would normally be found in SF - "Sophie's World" (Jostein Gaarder)
for example, is hardly a "normal" fiction book.
ATB
--
Mike
Michael Hargreave Mawson, author of "Eyewitness in the Crimea,"
to be published by Greenhill Books in March, 2001.
See http://www.hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk/Books.html for details.
tirion
Europe
> (actually..)
I really enjoyed 'The Island of the Day Before', for some inexplicable
reason. At least, I've yet to find anyone else who enjoyed it...
...and the greatest historical fiction ever written is 'The Lymond
Chronicles', by Dorothy Dunnett. IT is! <ahem>
Serg
_New Records of Ce Se_ Yuan May (defenitly not S F)
_The day before midnight_ S.Hunter (because I liked catacomb exploring)
just my .02 cent
Serg
Randy Money
_The Way Some People Die_ by Ross Macdonald
A mystery; Macdonald was the heir to Dashiell Hammett and Raymond
Chandler, not quite so hard-boiled but with a fine, pared prose style
and acute insight into the workings of the Southern California
upper-middle-class.
_The High Window_, _Farewell, My Lovely_, _The Little Sister_, _The
Lady in the Lake_ and _The Long Goodbye_, all by Raymond Chandler
Chandler was the writer who brought literary style and substance to
the hard-boiled detective novel in the 1940s. His work suffers a bit
by aged, but still packs a punch, especially because his writing style
with its flurries of similies always threatens to become too much --
it's sort of like watching Jimmy Cagney act, you keep wondering when
he's going to tip over into self-parody yet he rarely does. In a
sense, Chandler reminds me of writers like Poe, who don't seem to have
much range, who write from within an almost claustrophobic set of
obsessions; at the same time, he can be laugh-out-loud funny.
Chandler was a major influence, I think,on the cyberpunks, at least
stylistically.
_A Red Death_ by Walter Mosley
Another mystery -- I read more mysteries the last couple of years than
I normally do in six or seven years. Mosley is a writer I need to
catch up with. Not only is his prose as good as Macdonald's or
Chandler's, he is adept at looking at the recent past and commenting
on our society as it was and as it remains.
_The Practice of Writing_ by David Lodge
Collection of essays, cut into sections, one dealing with other
people's writing, one dealing with Lodge's experiences as a fiction
writer, one dealing with Lodge's experiences writing for screen and
stage. There's a touch of the academic to Lodge -- he was a professor
until about 10 years ago -- but as a professional novelist he knows
how to write directly and entertainingly. This book makes me want to
dip into his novels.
_A Dangerous Profession_ by Frederick Busch
Collection of essays, less academic than Lodge's, also more earnest
and impassioned; even a touch defensive where the long-time fiction
writer chaffs against the pronouncements of the literary theorists.
Two insightful, entertaining essays on Melville. [I'd strongly
recommend his novel _Girls_ to anyone interested in seeing how the
hard-boiled detective novel is written by someone with fairly
heavy-weight literary credentials. Warning: the subject matter is
strong stuff without being gory.]
[The Lodge and the Busch are the kind of writing books I enjoy most:
very little on technique, but you get a strong idea of what appeals to
these two writers in the fiction they consume and write.]
_Violent Screen_ by Stephen Hunter
Collection of essays/reviews of movies. Short, curt, sometimes
annoying, more often insightful takes on American movies and the
violence they depict. Includes sections on mystery movies, horror
movies and sf movies.
Huh. I read more non-sf/fantasy/horror last year than I thought I did.
Randy Money
Andrew C. Lannen
wrote:
>Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
>literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
>"genre" books that you've read?
Any of the Flashman books by George McDonald Fraser.
Anything written by P.G. Wodehouse, but with a strong bias towards
the Jeeves & Wooster books.
_An Instance of the Fingerpost_ by Iain Pears.
--
Andrew Lannen
and...@ix.netcom.com
Michael D. Ward
Mike Ralls wrote:
> Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
"The Sun Also Rises" and "A Farewell to Arms" by Hemmingway
"Wuthering Heights" by Emily Bronte
"Galapagos" by Kurt Vonnegut
Ami
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
>
writing.
Brenda
Andrew C. Lannen wrote:
>
>
> _An Instance of the Fingerpost_ by Iain Pears.
>
My goodness, I just finished reading this! A wonderful book, far meatier
than the usual run of 'historical mystery'.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of DOORS OF DEATH AND LIFE
From Tor Books in May 2000
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Aaron M. Renn
>A very touching account of the Great Depression in Britain. Orwell is
>every conservative's favorite liberal and every liberal's favorite
>conservative and that holds for me too. Orwell can WRITE, by god and he
>gets so much right that I just envy his sense of perception.
I prefer "Homage to Catalonia". But you are correct: Orwell was quite
a writer. Top notch stuff across the board.
--
Aaron M. Renn (ar...@urbanophile.com) http://www.urbanophile.com/arenn/
gnohm...@my-deja.com
Mike Ralls <MRa...@willamette.edu> wrote:
> Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
All books are some "genre", aren't they? Thus there is no such thing as a
nongenre book!
I like books that have Jack Aubrey or Archie Goodwin or Horatio Hornblower or
Meyer in them.
I like Livy, but Polybius will do in a pinch.
P. G. Wodehouse never wrote anything that wasn't well worth reading, but
then, neither did Samuel Clemens.
Jim Mann
gnohm...@my-deja.com wrote in message <93kn69$9t5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <93jd0f$7i4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Mike Ralls <MRa...@willamette.edu> wrote:
>> Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
>> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
>> "genre" books that you've read?
>
>All books are some "genre", aren't they? Thus there is no such thing as a
>nongenre book!
>
In some sense, but the way the term is typcially used, mainstream fiction is
non-genre.
>I like books that have Jack Aubrey or Archie Goodwin or Horatio Hornblower
or
>Meyer in them.
Good choices all.
>
>P. G. Wodehouse never wrote anything that wasn't well worth reading, but
>then, neither did Samuel Clemens.
I enjoy Wodehouse, but, at least from what of his works I've read, the
Jeeves and Wooster books are head and shoulders above his other stuff. I've
tried several of this other works and, while I've always found them
entertaining, they are not nearly as funny or as insightful as the Jeeves
books.
---
Jim Mann
Jim Deutch
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
"Winter's Tale" by Mark Helprin -- rapture is put off for another 1000 years
because we're having too much fun to end it now
"One Hundred Years of Solitude" by Gabriel Garcia Marquez -- a
Central-American family saga
"Riddley Walker" by Russel Hoban -- the reinvention of gunpowder in
post-apocalyptic England
"The King Must Die" by Mary Renault -- the legend of Theseus and the
Labyrinth and all that
Hmm, an extremely SFnal list, though all marketed mainstream...
Jim Deutch
gnohm...@my-deja.com
"Jim Mann" <jm...@transarc.com> wrote:
>
> gnohm...@my-deja.com wrote in message <93kn69$9t5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <93jd0f$7i4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Mike Ralls <MRa...@willamette.edu> wrote:
> >> Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
> >> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> >> "genre" books that you've read?
> >
> >All books are some "genre", aren't they? Thus there is no such thing as a
> >nongenre book!
>
> In some sense, but the way the term is typcially used, mainstream
> fiction is non-genre.
What is mainstream? Some people have mentioned "1984" and "Galapagos" in this
thread as though they were not science fiction. Is "Time and Again"
mainstream? What makes it so?
I rather enjoy Hugo, but I devoured Dumas (both); and I could argue that
either is genre, of a genre perhaps that needs a discerning reader to
recognize its genrosity. Hemingway seems extremely genristic to me. And
Steinbeck! How can you call that anything but?
It often seems to me that the socalled "genre" writers are better and more
skilful in every way (yes, I really said *in every way*) than the socalled
"mainstream" writers.
> I enjoy Wodehouse, but,
> Jeeves and Wooster books are head and shoulders above
Quite wrong. The Blanding stories are the best. Clarence is one of the more
intriguing characters of modern literature.
But then, so is Galahad Threepwood, wouldn't you say? Uncle Gally turns up at
Blandings as well as in the Wooster series (for that matter, Bertie also
shows up at Blandings, and I trust it will not be a spoiler if I mention that
a bit of imposture is involved).
The miscellaneous novels of the middle period are the second best [1]. Bertie
and Jeeves are only third or fourth. You need to eat more fish.
====
[1] Story ID needed: the beachbound crowds at Paddington are compared to
Xenophon's ten thousand...
Mike Schilling
news:93kr33$ib0$1...@newshost.transarc.ibm.com...
>
> I enjoy Wodehouse, but, at least from what of his works I've read, the
> Jeeves and Wooster books are head and shoulders above his other stuff.
I've
> tried several of this other works and, while I've always found them
> entertaining, they are not nearly as funny or as insightful as the
Jeeves
> books.
>
Insightful, yes, but I often find Lord Emsworth, Uncle Fred, or Psmith
make me laugh more.
Randy Money
>
> In article <93kr33$ib0$1...@newshost.transarc.ibm.com>,
> "Jim Mann" <jm...@transarc.com> wrote:
> >
> > gnohm...@my-deja.com wrote in message <93kn69$9t5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> > >In article <93jd0f$7i4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > >All books are some "genre", aren't they? Thus there is no such thing as a
> > >nongenre book!
> >
> > In some sense, but the way the term is typcially used, mainstream
> > fiction is non-genre.
>
> What is mainstream? Some people have mentioned "1984" and "Galapagos" in this
> thread as though they were not science fiction. Is "Time and Again"
> mainstream? What makes it so?
Some respondents are talking in terms of marketing: neither _1984_ nor
_Galapagos_ were marketed as sf/fantasy, and early in his career
Vonnegut fought against such labelling. He perceived it as limiting
his audience. At that time, he was right; might still be.
Others of us are responding with works that do not include the usual
icons of sf/f/h: nary an elf, unicorn, dragon, spaceship, blaster,
vampire, zombie, ... shows up in Raymond Chandler's mysteries, for
instance, though a whole other array of paraphernalia, like snub-nosed
.38s, saps (in both meanings of the word), negligently draped
negligees, and more whiskey bottles than could be held in three
WalMarts lend ambiance. Still others are responding with
non-fictional works, a term which begs the question of where they
overlap with fantasy.
About "mainstream": the only time I ever hear the term is when
discussing that fiction which doesn't fit into sf, fantasy, horror,
mystery, romance, ... with fans of a specific genre. Most people who
use it seem to be lumping Harold Robbins with Hemingway and Jackie
Collins with Tim O'Brien, though when you talk to them most know the
difference.
But if you want to contend that terms like "genre" and "mainstream" as
generally used are becoming less and less meaningful as writers in all
genres absorb and use the icons, motifs, plots and themes of various
genres, then more power to you. I'll be the guy in your corner
rootin' you on.
> I rather enjoy Hugo, but I devoured Dumas (both); and I could argue that
> either is genre, of a genre perhaps that needs a discerning reader to
> recognize its genrosity. Hemingway seems extremely genristic to me. And
> Steinbeck! How can you call that anything but?
I'd love to hear the justification for these assertions. [I will give
you that Hemingway's style is ubiquitous, especially by way of the
hard-boiled boys of the '30s and '40s, who copied his brevity if not
the poetics of his prose.]
> It often seems to me that the socalled "genre" writers are better and more
> skilful in every way (yes, I really said *in every way*) than the socalled
> "mainstream" writers.
Disagree. In the deployment of plot, maybe. In the use of language,
far, far rarer.
Randy Money
Dr Nuncheon
>literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
>"genre" books that you've read?
Edmund Rostand's _Cyrano de Bergerac_. (Unfortunately, I forget the name
of the fellow who did my favorite translation.)
Victor Hugo's _Les Miserables_ - one of the few books I went back and
reread after being exposed to it in school.
I'm currently reading and immensely enjoying Patrick O'Brien's
Aubrey/Maturin novels - British navy during and after the Napoleonic wars.
J
--
INTERNET SEEMS TO BE FULL OF MILLIONS OF | Jeff Johnston
IDIOTS & LUNATICS ! ! - c2 (ts...@my-deja.com) | jeffj @ io . com
Andrea
experience of reading. Puts a great perspective on accepted history.
A
Ninni Pettersson
> On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 04:32:15 GMT, Mike Ralls <MRa...@willamette.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
> >literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> >"genre" books that you've read?
<snip>
> Anything written by P.G. Wodehouse, but with a strong bias towards
> the Jeeves & Wooster books.
<snip>
I agree about Wodehouse, but my bias is towards the Blandings
books. I simply adore Lord Emsworth :-)
Other favourite non-sf are:
Dorothy L Sayers' novels about Lord Peter Wimsey, because of the
way plot, setting, characthers, atmosphere and writing come together as
a (almost) seamless whole. (Some people call them crime / detective
stories, but that part is not what makes me love them.)
Rex Stout's detective stories about Nero Wolf, because of Archie
Goodwin, and the wonderful dialogs, and the setting.
A A Milne's books about Winnie-the-Pooh, because they're charming,
magical and screamingly funny.
/Ninni Pettersson
--
Ninni Pettersson - Stockholm - Sweden
Mail-adress is vidumavi at swipnet dot se
Dryad
> >
> > But how about you? What are your favorite non "genre" books that you've
> > read recently? Also, I think this would be a cool award to give at some
> > con.
> >
> > --
> > Mike Ralls
Um, ok.
Anything by Jane Austin
Jane Eyre
the Dictionary and Thesaurus (no, really)
Into the Void - Joe Simpson
In the Country of the Pointed Fir - Sarah Orne Jewett (highly
recommended)
A Country Doctor - Sarah Orne Jewett
I, Claudius - Robert Graves
Claudius the God - Robert Graves
Marmion - Sir Walter Scott
Poetry by Sir Walter Scott
Hornblower (series) - CS Forrester (anything by Forrester, actually)
Dryad, who can't remember anything else
--
spammaramalamma
Oldayz
In descending order:
1. Sandro from Chegem by Fazil Iskander (in russian) very uplifting trilogy
full of soft humor and insights - I'd imagine if I was ever considering
suicide, that's waht I would read to put my mind off it. Or recommend to
someone who does.
2. One hundred years of solitude by Markes - magical fusion of surreality,
reality and again soft humor. A 'down' book. It makes you feel full of
quiet desperation when you finish it. From purely artistical viewpoint this
is the most sophisticated book I've read.
3. Catcher in the rye - J.D. Salinger. Great book. It's really hard to tell
if it's better than previous one or not.. I should re-read #2 to say for
sure..
These 3 first are all nearly perfect - the ones below aren't nearly as good,
in comparison.
4. 1984 by George Orwell - I don't consider it to be scifi because it doesn't
focus on technology/science affect on our future life. Yeah, there are these
monitors but.. it's a minor point imho.
5. Daemons by F.Dostoevsky - low key comedy, tragedy, philosophy..
That's all I can't think of from the top of my mind... I guess Dickens is
okay.. Tolstoy, for the record, I don't like much. As an example, in War
and Peace he puts forth a theory that it's absurd to say that one person
(Napoleon) could cause over a million of people to go hundreds of miles to
wage war on Russia - he was just on top when it happened and if it wasn't
him, someone else would 'lead' all these masses in this war. I think this
is plain ludicruous. He's stating it with firm conviction, too, which leads
me to think that although he was a very humane person and all that, he wasn't
particularly clever, to say the least :-).
--
Andrei
Andrew C. Wheeler
> Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
Well, of the books I read in 2000 that don't get put on the usual
SF/Fantasy/Horror racks, the best were:
Paul Hoffman, THE MAN WHO LOVED ONLY NUMBERS -- a great biography of
mathematician Paul Erdos, who was practically an alien himself.
Jaren Diamond, GUNS, GERMS AND STEEL -- explains all of human history,
based mostly on geography and domesticable animals.
Joe Queenan, CONFESSIONS OF A CINEPLEX HECKLER -- zippy collection of
essays from my favorite movie reviewer (it's perfect because he hates
everything and I hardly ever get to see movies, so I don't feel like I'm
missing anything).
Joel Achenbach, CAPTURED BY ALIENS -- a serious look at UFO loonies by a
guy previously known for lightweight "silly fact" books.
Stella Gibbons, COLD COMFORT FARM and Dodie Smith, I CAPTURE THE CASTLE --
two funny and touching looks at rural England in about mid-century.
Paco Underhill, WHY WE BUY -- a fascinating look at modern marketing
strategies
Slavomir Rawicz, THE LONG WALK -- this guy was a Polish POW in Siberia and,
with a few others, broke out and *walked* to India. Amazing true story.
Bill Bryson, IN A SUNBURNED COUNTRY -- I still think NOTES FROM A SMALL
ISLAND is his best & funniest book, but he's one of the smoothest, most
engaging writers around.
Lawrence Block, RONALD RABBIT IS A DIRTY OLD MAN -- either the funniest sex
novel ever written or the comedy with the most "good parts," take your
pick. Back in print recently for the first time in decades.
And, last but not least, Chris Ware, JIMMY CORRIGAN, THE SMARTEST KID ON
EARTH -- an absolutely brilliant graphic novel about despair, loneliness
and other cheery topics.
--
Andrew Wheeler
Editor, Science Fiction Book Club
business e-mail: andrew....@bookspan.com
winner, World's Most Boring .sig: 1998, 1999, 2000 (Emeritus)
Roderick Chia
>
> Some respondents are talking in terms of marketing: neither _1984_ nor
> _Galapagos_ were marketed as sf/fantasy, and early in his career
> Vonnegut fought against such labelling. He perceived it as limiting
> his audience. At that time, he was right; might still be.
>
> Others of us are responding with works that do not include the usual
> icons of sf/f/h: nary an elf, unicorn, dragon, spaceship, blaster,
> vampire, zombie, ... shows up in Raymond Chandler's mysteries, for
> instance, though a whole other array of paraphernalia, like snub-nosed
> .38s, saps (in both meanings of the word), negligently draped
> negligees, and more whiskey bottles than could be held in three
> WalMarts lend ambiance. Still others are responding with
> non-fictional works, a term which begs the question of where they
> overlap with fantasy.
>
> About "mainstream": the only time I ever hear the term is when
> discussing that fiction which doesn't fit into sf, fantasy, horror,
> mystery, romance, ... with fans of a specific genre. Most people who
> use it seem to be lumping Harold Robbins with Hemingway and Jackie
> Collins with Tim O'Brien, though when you talk to them most know the
> difference.
>
What about Marquez's _One Hundred Years of Solitude_?
It can be (and is) classified as "magic realism", and yet it could also
be considered mainstream by almost any of your definitions, though I
would also put it as "literary fiction".
Roderick
--
"We learn from history that we don't learn from history."
Phil Fraering
> > "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Ecco - a whodunnit set in medieval
> Europe
> > (actually..)
>
> I really enjoyed 'The Island of the Day Before', for some inexplicable
> reason. At least, I've yet to find anyone else who enjoyed it...
I tried to read _The Island of the Day Before_, but it won.
--
Phil Fraering
p...@globalreach.net
Debian Sid PowerPC Crash Test Dummy
Roderick Chia
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
>
Okay, you did say "other genres" and then non "genre", so here goes...
_Gates of Fire_ by Steven Pressfied
A historical fact-fiction piece detailing the Greeks' stand (led by the
Three Hundred Spartan Peers) at Thermopylae against Xerxes' Persian
empire in 480 BC.
I don't know enough of the actual history to comment, but it sure makes
riveting and informative reading.
_Other Voices, Other Vistas_ edited by Barbara H Solomon
A collection of modern multicultural short stories from Africa, China,
India, Japan and Latin America.
_One Hundred Years of Solitude_ by Gabriel Garcia Marquez
_Veronica Decides To Die_ by Paulo Coelho
_Spencerville_ by Nelson DeMille
_Honor By Fire_ by Lyn Crost
Japanese Americans at war in Europe and the Pacific
_Citizen Soldiers_ by Stephen E Ambrose
_O Jerusalem!_ by Larry Collins & Dominique Lapierre
(Pretty old by my standards, published before I was born! - 1972)
_Wanderings: Chain Potok's History of the Jews_ by Chaim Potok
_A Passion for Wisdom (A Very Brief History of Philosophy)_
edited by Robert C Solomon and Kathleen M Higgins
And then, for pure fluff:
_When The Wind Blows_ by James Patterson
_Temple_ by Matthew Reilly
_Sword Point_ by Harold C Coyle
Roderick
--
"We learn from history that we don't learn from history."
Phil Fraering
> "tirion" <neill....@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
> > > "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Ecco - a whodunnit set in medieval
> > Europe
> > > (actually..)
> >
> > I really enjoyed 'The Island of the Day Before', for some inexplicable
> > reason. At least, I've yet to find anyone else who enjoyed it...
>
> I tried to read _The Island of the Day Before_, but it won.
BTW, maybe now would be a good time to ask: should I give it another
shot, or give up and mail it to some needy person who needs a book
like it?
Joe Slater
>> I tried to read _The Island of the Day Before_, but it won.
Phil Fraering <p...@globalreach.net> wrote:
>BTW, maybe now would be a good time to ask: should I give it another
>shot, or give up and mail it to some needy person who needs a book
>like it?
I read it, and I don't know why.
jds
--
If I'd known anyone would take that much interest, I'd have written better books.
- Terry Pratchett, musing about his twenty-fifth novel.
thomas monaghan
> In article <93jd0f$7i4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Mike Ralls <MRa...@willamette.edu> wrote:
> Roderick wrote
Louis L'Amour Westerns are great.
Tom
Michael Hargreave Mawson
<te...@ozemail.com.au> writes
>"The Daughter of Time" by Josephine Tey. A book I'll never forget the
>experience of reading. Puts a great perspective on accepted history.
>
necessarily factual. There are a couple of out-and-out errors, and a
lot of the conclusions she draws are not really supported by the data
she adduces.
The most powerful argument in this book, and one that is frequently
omitted by historians, is that of motive. But, whilst she makes a good
case for Richard not having any reason to have the Princes killed, and
very good reasons for him to want them to remain alive, she does not
make a convincing case for anyone else to have killed them.
ATB
--
Mike
Michael Hargreave Mawson, author of "Eyewitness in the Crimea,"
to be published by Greenhill Books in March, 2001.
See http://www.hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk/Books.html for details.
Richard Horton
wrote:
>Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
>literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
>"genre" books that you've read?
I can think of two ways to answer this:
1) Favorite books, plain and simple. (Which I think is what you
meant.)
2) Favorite non-SF books that you think have some SFnal appeal. I'll
mark those on my list with a *.
And no fair counting non-SF books by SF writers!
My list:
Someone already mentioned Dorothy Dunnett's Lymond Chronicles, which
are indeed wonderful. Lots of other historical fiction counts, too,
including at one end of the spectrum Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-Maturin
books, and at another end (though almost exactly at the same
historical time) Georgette Heyer's Regency Romances. They all get
*'s, as with most HF.
My favorite 20th C. writer is Anthony Powell. His most famous work is
a 12-volume novel called _A Dance to the Music of Time_, in my opinion
the best novel in English in this century. It's not in any obvious
way a book that would appeal to the SF-loving bones in our bodies,
though.
Robertson Davies. Especially _Fifth Business_ and _What's Bred in the
Bone_. Davies actually won a World Fantasy award for his collection
of ghost stories, _High Spirits_, and his work definitely seems to be
of possible appeal to SF readers, to me. So, *.
Kingsley Amis. Especially _Lucky Jim_ and _The Old Devils_. Amis was
an SF fan, to be sure, and he wrote some SF (_The Alteration_,
_Russian Hide and Seek_, some shorts, including one that Aldiss and
Harrison picked for one of their Best SF of the year anthologies), and
some near-SF (_The Green Man_, _The Anti-Death League_), though the
two books I mentioned first are not at all SFnal.
A. S. Byatt. _Possession_ is really wonderful, and as a Romance (her
term, not meant to mean "love story" (though it is that)), and a
historical novel in part, it does have some SFnal attraction. Her
contemporary novels, such as _Still Life_, are also very good. Her
collection _Sugar and other stories_ has some good stuff, including a
story that read just like any number of F&SF stories, but also
including the remarkable title story, which is as purely mainstream as
a story can be. Her other collections, especially _The Djinn in the
Nightingale's Eye_ and _Elementals_, have many fantastical stories,
though as Jo Walton has pointed out, she attacks things from a very
non-SFnal direction.
Rudyard Kipling. _Kim_ is his great novel, but really I read him for
the short stories. "'They'". "The Strange Ride of Morrowbie Jukes".
"Mrs. Bathurst". "The Story of Mohammed Din". "Mary Postgate".
Incredible stuff, and still underappreciated, though I sense that he
is much more read these days, and more sympathetically. Definitely
gets a * for SFnal attraction.
W. M. Spackman. Wrote several bright, brittle, short novels, mostly
about adultery, generally older men seducing/being seduced by younger
women. Not SFnal by any stretch of the imagination, well except for
the great success those older men have! Just stunning prose.
Jane Austen. Needs little description. _Emma_ is my personal
favorite.
Giuseppe di Lampedusa. _The Leopard_. Beautiful novel about Italy's
Risorgimento, and the decline of the aristocracy. Lovely writing (in
a lovely translation.)
A few more random names: Nicholson Baker. Robert Barnard (mysteries).
Peter de Vries. Vladimir Nabokov. Josephine Tey's _Daughter of
Time_.
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.sfsite.com/tangent)
Richard Horton
<andyw...@ultracom.net> wrote:
>Stella Gibbons, COLD COMFORT FARM
Beep! This is a science fiction novel! If not, explain to me the
Anglo-Nicaraguan War, and the Picture Phones.
Jeff Jones
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
>
Steinbeck:
The Grapes of Wrath
In Dubious Battle
Tortilla Flat
Camus:
The Stranger
The Plague
Resistance, Rebellion & Death
Cormac McCarthy:
Everything but especially---
Blood Meridian (The best English language book in 75 years)
All the Pretty Horses
The Crossing
Cities on the Plains
Child of God
John Irving:
The World According to Garp
A Prayer for Owen Meany
Hotel New Hampshire
Vonnegut:
Jailbird
Deadeye Dick
Breakfast of Champions
To Kill a Mockingbird - Harper Lee
Catch-22 - Joseph Heller
Elmer Gantry - Sinclair Lewis
The Ox-Bow Incident - Walter Van Tilburg Clark
All Quite on the Western Front - Erich Maria Remarque
Those come to mind with but a moments thought. I am sure there are others.
As much as I love SF and as much as I think that the best of it is quality
literature the books that have really moved me and really made a difference
in my life have been non-genre books.
Jeff Jones
Austin, Texas
Ethan A Merritt
Phil Fraering <p...@globalreach.net> wrote:
>> "tirion" <neill....@ntlworld.com> writes:
>>
>> > I really enjoyed 'The Island of the Day Before', for some inexplicable
>> > reason. At least, I've yet to find anyone else who enjoyed it...
>>
>> I tried to read _The Island of the Day Before_, but it won.
>
>BTW, maybe now would be a good time to ask: should I give it another
>shot, or give up and mail it to some needy person who needs a book
>like it?
Well, I got about half way through, then put it aside meaning to get
back to it. I never did get back to it though, which says something
about how engaging it was.
As it happens, the book I put it aside for was Rushdie's _The Moor's
Last Sigh_, which could perhaps be called another "book like it".
I enjoyed it considerably more, and remember it better, than the Eco book.
I particularly liked the opening section for its historical look
at the Jewish and Portugese communities in India.
Ethan A Merritt
Karen Lofstrom
: But how about you? What are your favorite non "genre" books that you've
: read recently? Also, I think this would be a cool award to give at some
: con.
Too many to name. High on the list would be Jane Austen, John MacPhee,
Patrick O'Brian, and A.S. Byatt. Oh yes, and Arthur Golden's _Memoirs of a
Geisha_.
Then there's Dickens, George Eliot, Thackeray, Trollope, Gaskell, and _The
Tale of Genji_, and ... I'd better stop now.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
--------------------------------------------------
"A man could not be in two places at the same time
unless he were a bird!" -- Sir Roche Boyle
Jo Walton
MRa...@willamette.edu "Mike Ralls" writes:
> Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
My _favourite_ non-SF fiction would be
The complete works of Mary Renault
Dodie Smith's _I Capture the Castle_
The complete works of Sumner Locke Elliott. (Excluding the two that are SF.)
And then it comes down to Jane Austen, Georgette Heyer, Patrick O'Brian,
Donald Westlake, Nevil Shute, L.M. Montgomery, Dorothy Sayers, Gillian
Bradshaw, A.S. Byatt, Dorothy Dunnett, Rumer Godden, Gail Godwin, Marge
Piercy - these are all people whose new books, or newly found books, I'd
leap on with cries of delight.
If you're including all books, and therefore non-fiction and poetry, it
would be a very long list.
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk Take the rasfw pledge
*THE KING'S PEACE* out now! From Tor Books and good bookshops everywhere.
More info, Tir Tanagiri Map & Poetry etc at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
The Blue Rose
>Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
>literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
>"genre" books that you've read?
>
Hmmmmm
Much of Wilbur Smiths books, two most fave are Sunbird and Eagle in
the Sky.
I like a lot of that historical fiction stuff, and my fave authors are
Elizabeth Chadwick
Sharon Penman
and the other one who wrote Lady of Hay (instant Mental Blank)
I dont have much time to read now so I am fairly exclusive to
Sf/Fantasy, and I still dont have enuf time *wail*
Stacey
-- Stacey Hill
"On the other hand, you have a whole new set of fingers"
www.geocities.com/theonlybluerose
snark^
warbled on about SF Fans Favorite Non SF Books in rec.arts.sf.written <<=
> Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
Lots of Hissy-Fic for me:
George McDonald Fraser - the Flashman series.
Lindsey Davis - her Falco series set in Ancient Rome.
Umberto Eco - Name of the Rose & Focault's Pendulum was fun but was tough
to wade through.
Kipling - Mrs Hauksbee/Simla stories, The Man Who Would Be King.
Arthur Conan Doyle - Sheerluck Holmes.
Patricia Finney's two Elizebethan-era mysteries - Firedrake's Eye and
Unicorn's Blood.
Bernard Cornwell - his Sharp books got me interested in Napoleonic history,
something which I'd previously avoided like the plague.
Ian Fleming - James Bond (+ Kingsley Amis's Colonel Sun).
Ian Charteris - Saint series.
John le Carré - George Smiley books, The Little Drummer Girl (looking for
his others).
Lewis Carroll - his excellent Victorian-era chronicle of a young girl's
descent into an underground world of drug taking, pot-smoking, crime,
gambling and depravity which is also known to us as Alice in Wonderland.
+ Hergé, Goscinny and Uderzo (alternative history?), Bill Waterson
(fantasy?), Dr. Seuss, and Gary Larson (new wave sf?).
While 2000AD might be a sci-fi comic in general occasionally it comes out
with some good contemporary stories like The Button Man too.
--
I've seen things you newbies wouldn't believe. Attack-lusers aflame off
the shoulder of rec.arts.sf-written. I watched cancel posts glitter in the
ether near the waikato.ac.nz gateway. All these moments will be lost in
time -- like beers in the rain... Time to unsubscribe.
Jim Mann
Michael Hargreave Mawson wrote in message ...
>The most powerful argument in this book, and one that is frequently
>omitted by historians, is that of motive. But, whilst she makes a good
>case for Richard not having any reason to have the Princes killed, and
>very good reasons for him to want them to remain alive, she does not
>make a convincing case for anyone else to have killed them.
>
More importantly, if the Princes were alive, Richard had every reason to
present them to the people. Many of the problems late in his reign were a
result of the unrest that resulted after the rumor spread that the Princes
had been killed by Richard. If they were alive, he would have shown them at
a public function to squelch such rumors.
Allison Weir's The Princes in the Tower is the best book I've read on the
the subject, and the above is pretty much her conclusion.
---
Jim Mann
Randy Money
>
[...]
> > About "mainstream": the only time I ever hear the term is when
> > discussing that fiction which doesn't fit into sf, fantasy, horror,
> > mystery, romance, ... with fans of a specific genre. Most people who
> > use it seem to be lumping Harold Robbins with Hemingway and Jackie
> > Collins with Tim O'Brien, though when you talk to them most know the
> > difference.
> >
> > Randy Money
>
> What about Marquez's _One Hundred Years of Solitude_?
> It can be (and is) classified as "magic realism", and yet it could also
> be considered mainstream by almost any of your definitions, though I
> would also put it as "literary fiction".
>
> Roderick
I agree, Roderick. I recognize that magic realism has its own
particular flavor, but I do think the tag acts as a method for the
literati to avoid saying they love fantasy.
That's also why I said,
"[I]f you want to contend that terms like "genre" and "mainstream" as
generally used are becoming less and less meaningful as writers in all
genres absorb and use the icons, motifs, plots and themes of various
genres, then more power to you. I'll be the guy in your corner
rootin' you on."
The breakdown began before magic realism appeared, I think. For
instance, some of John Cheever's short stories from the '40s and '50s,
like "The Music Teacher," "Torch Song" and "The Enormous Radio" are
not all that dissimilar to stories from Campbell's Unknown magazine.
His most famous short story, "The Swimmer," reads to me like magic
realism before there was magic realism. Then in the '50s, along comes
Shirley Jackson. When the so-called post-modernists show up, they
start playing with narrative structure, and some of the results are
rather like fantasy.
Randy
Brenda
Richard Horton wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:51:16 +0000, "Andrew C. Wheeler"
> <andyw...@ultracom.net> wrote:
>
> >Stella Gibbons, COLD COMFORT FARM
>
> Beep! This is a science fiction novel! If not, explain to me the
> Anglo-Nicaraguan War, and the Picture Phones.
One could argue that the SF trappings in COLD COMFORT do not relate to the actual main story in
any way, and have no effect on any of the characters. The movie version of the book which came
out a couple years ago simply omitted the SF element in the beginning of the story, with no loss
of quality at all.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of DOORS OF DEATH AND LIFE
From Tor Books in May 2000
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
P.D. TILLMAN
Here are some "speculative-science" titles I've particularly enjoyed:
Freeman Dyson is my favorite scientist-writer. I know of no one
else who combines his clarity of thought, graceful use of language,
big ideas expressed modestly, and sense of history. And his writing is
*full* of sfnal ideas.... You can start with any of his essay collections; my
favorite is probably Infinite in All Directions (1989). His recent The Sun,
the Genome, and the Internet (1999) would also be a fine choice.
Hans Moravec is another fine scientist-writer -- his most recent book
of speculative science, Robot: Mere Machine to Transcendent Mind (1999),
is a strange, cool, unblinking vision of a future where ordinary
biologic humans are confined to a reservation/retirement home on
cozy old Earth, while their "mind children", advanced machine
intelligences, go out to conquer the Universe....
Gregory Rawlins' Slaves of the Machine - the Quickening of Computer
Technology (1997) is an elegant small book on the history and
future of computers, ranging from Charles Babbage's Analytical Engine
(1842) to future machine intelligence. Yet another speculative-science
book more interesting (and certainly more rigorous) than most science-
fiction novels.
Kip Thorne's Black Holes & Time Warps -- Einstein's Outrageous Legacy
(1995) is a first-rate introduction to modern physics, and a fine personal
history of "big science" in the 20th century. Thorne's writing is (usually)
clear and direct, and he includes enough biographical tidbits and anecdotes
to keep the human juice in potentially dry topics. Thorne is best known to
the general public for his 1988 wormhole "time-machine" proposal, which
came from a request from Carl Sagan for a plausible FTL transport scheme
for his 1985 science-fiction novel "Contact" (which I also recommend).
And Eric Drexler's Engines of Creation remains the most engaging and
sfnal introduction to the possibilites of nanotechnology -- speculative
engineering at its best....
"One day, something vast and cool and strange may read these very words
-- and chuckle with amusement.
Welcome to tomorrow." -- Gregory Rawlins
Cheers -- Pete Tillman
Book Reviews: http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/reviewer.html#tillman
http://www.sfsite.com/revwho.htm
(including reviews of most of the books mentioned above)
--
gnohm...@my-deja.com
Randy Money <rbm...@library.syr.edu> wrote:
> gnohm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Steinbeck! How can you call that anything but?
>
> I'd love to hear the justification for these assertions.
If I read one more rant about the Land, I'll -- I'll -- I'll stop reading
this guy, that's what I'll do. [...time passes and pages are turned...]
Aaaargh!
It seems to me that genre is a term used for writings that are in some way
formulaic, but that almost every author's works can be shown to follow some
pattern or formula once you've read enough of them.
In the case of the whodunit, the formula is obvious, and there are multiple
authors following the same formula. Both Kinsey Millhone and Victoria
Iphigenia Warshawski are excellent reads, but they follow the formula of
Travis McGee so closely, maybe ninety per cent. (A genre within a genre.) The
genreness is brazenly evident.
In the case of "mainstream", the formula may be less obvious, and there are
usually fewer authors who follow the same formula. Perhaps I should stop and
think a half hour and find some excellent example, but this is Usenet. Others
will have the same sense of things, and one will have an example right to
hand.
> Disagree. In the deployment of plot, maybe. In the use of language,
> far, far rarer.
In the use of language for what? When a tool is used, it is used to do some
job of work. Language is a flexible tool which can be used to do many
different jobs.
Perhaps if we average out all the different jobs that language does in a
novel, we'll find that the average genre writer is better than the average
"mainstream" writer at the use of language, the good genre writer is better
than the good mainstreamer, and the best genrists are every bit as good as
the best mainstreamers (one cannot improve on perfection).
Paul Linden
> IIn the case of "mainstream", the formula may be less obvious, and there are
> usually fewer authors who follow the same formula. Perhaps I should stop and
> think a half hour and find some excellent example, but this is Usenet. Others
> will have the same sense of things, and one will have an example right to
> hand.
>
Take your pick:
1. Male American university lecturers writing about male American university
lecturers going through a midlife emotional crisis.
2. Middleclass English women writers producing delicately written novels about
lonely middleclass English women going through a midlife emotional crisis.
3. Middleaged Irish ex-Catholic males writing about poverty stricken Irish
Catholic childhoods.
Paul
Randy Money
>
> In article <3A5E14B8...@library.syr.edu>,
> Randy Money <rbm...@library.syr.edu> wrote:
> > gnohm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > Steinbeck! How can you call that anything but?
> >
> > I'd love to hear the justification for these assertions.
>
> If I read one more rant about the Land, I'll -- I'll -- I'll stop reading
> this guy, that's what I'll do. [...time passes and pages are turned...]
> Aaaargh!
>
> It seems to me that genre is a term used for writings that are in some way
> formulaic, but that almost every author's works can be shown to follow some
> pattern or formula once you've read enough of them.
Hmmmm... my own personal genre -- sounds like a title, doesn't it?
But I think your generalization may be too reductve. Each writer is
likely to find and develop a pattern of story-telling/writing.
Hemingway and Faulkner are easy examples of extremes. Papa's work
became more formulaic over time as the success of the style that had
freed him to write became its own trap because it was expected of
him. Faulkner somewhat avoided this by always looking for new styles
of presentation -- from stream-of-conscience to a sort of trial
transcript.
> In the case of the whodunit, the formula is obvious, and there are multiple
> authors following the same formula. Both Kinsey Millhone and Victoria
> Iphigenia Warshawski are excellent reads, but they follow the formula of
> Travis McGee so closely, maybe ninety per cent. (A genre within a genre.) The
> genreness is brazenly evident.
>
> In the case of "mainstream", the formula may be less obvious, and there are
> usually fewer authors who follow the same formula. Perhaps I should stop and
> think a half hour and find some excellent example, but this is Usenet. Others
> will have the same sense of things, and one will have an example right to
> hand.
Raymond Carver and the Minimalists, maybe? But my impression on
talking to literary types is that they see sf, mystery, romance, etc.
as outside the "mainstream" of fiction, but they also see that within
the "mainstream" there are various genres. Usually, if they mention
genre, they seem to be referring to these. (Naturalism, Realism,
Modernism, Post-Modernism, Magic Realism... some of these seem to
overlap with our definitions of genre; as I said elsewhere, magic
realism is probably just a flavor of fantasy.)
But what happens in mainstream is that there's a baseline agreement
that "literature" is a realistic depiction of life -- pretty much the
baseline since the days after Poe, Hawthorne and Melville in America.
Meanwhile, actual writers are playing riffs of what's allowed within
these boundries, if they pay any attention to them beyond, "Gee
so-and-so is writing great stuff, I could do something along those
lines" (and so you get Faulkner and Hemingway both working off models
provided by Twain and, later, Gertrude Stein and Sherwood Anderson).
Once writers start feeling hog-tied by these sorts of
assumptions/givens, they start pushing at them or tearing them down,
and then the academics and critics have to react, building new
theories to account for all the good work that remains undescribed by
previous theories. (Not entirely different from how engineers
sometimes do something and then scientists have to explain why it
worked when it shouldn't have according to the "laws" and theories
previously in effect.)
> > Disagree. In the deployment of plot, maybe. In the use of language,
> > far, far rarer.
>
> In the use of language for what? When a tool is used, it is used to do some
> job of work. Language is a flexible tool which can be used to do many
> different jobs.
Nope. Still don't agree. The range of use of tropes from metaphor to
synecdoche (sp?) to other figures of speech I'm forgetting the names
for (*ahem*) is, usually, more within the conscious reach of
mainstream writers. In a sense, this is what they study in creative
writing courses and when they read, this is what they look for in
other writers, and what they emulate when writing, far moreso than
most genre writers. (I suspect Le Guin might be an exception, and
maybe James Lee Burke in the mystery genre; also most writers with
classical educations -- look at G. K. Chesterton's mysteries.)
The main thing that distinguished _The Handmaid's Tale_ wasn't just
its boringness (I found it fascinating and compelling, but there were
stretches ...), it was the poetic use of language, the awareness of
meaning behind a phrase or word. A lot of modern, literary writing is
concerned with, at least in part, how language works. Genre writing
is more concerned with what happens, how and why. I'm not sure I want
to go to far with this, but I think maybe genre fiction still cares
about cause and effect, and only a small portion of literary fiction
still does to any degree. Some kind of philosophy shift there that
I'm not knowledgeable enough to pin down better than that.
Randy M.
Mike Schilling
news:3A5F3F29...@library.syr.edu...
> Once writers start feeling hog-tied by these sorts of
> assumptions/givens, they start pushing at them or tearing them down,
> and then the academics and critics have to react, building new
> theories to account for all the good work that remains undescribed by
> previous theories. (Not entirely different from how engineers
> sometimes do something and then scientists have to explain why it
> worked when it shouldn't have according to the "laws" and theories
> previously in effect.)
The example I would have used is economists having to explain why the
current facts don't match the existing theories. Remeber the Phillips
curve, which "proved" that inflation and unemployment had an inverse
relationship?
What examples are you thinking of, where engineers operate in advance of
science?
gnohm...@my-deja.com
Randy Money <rbm...@library.syr.edu> wrote:
> gnohm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> But what happens in mainstream is that there's a baseline agreement
> that "literature" is a realistic depiction of life
You mean a conventional depiction of a restricted set of possible lifes,
right?
Most of the characters in the "mainstream" genre are not much like me, nor
like anybody I know, nor like anybody I might care about. The lives they lead
generally make me ask why they didn't just pull up stakes and move to the big
city and try something new. The incidents that happen, if anything actually
does happen, make me yawn. The reactions of the character to the things that
happen are not the reactions I would have.
In various types of good genre fiction, any of the above points may be true,
but they are never all true at the same time.
I honestly find Blackie Duquesne to be a more interesting characterization
than many mainstream characters (make no mistake, E.E. Smith did not write
"good genre fiction"! I merely choose Blackie as an extreme example.)
> Nope. Still don't agree. The range of use of tropes from metaphor
> to synecdoche (sp?) to other figures of speech I'm forgetting the names
> for (*ahem*)
I love the named figures of speech, the exotic words, paraleipsis and zeugma
and metonymy and oh, so many others. However,
"I would appreciate it if they would call a halt on all their devoted efforts
to find a way to abolish war or eliminate disease or run trains with atoms or
extend the span of human life to a couple of centuries, and everybody
concentrate for a while on how to wake me up in the morning without my
resenting it."
Is there a named figure of speech in that? (Except perhaps "American
hyperbole, Mark Twain style"?) Is it beautifully phrased? Is it deliciously
in character? (Archie Goodwin, in "Before Midnight") Does it fulfill its
purpose in its place in the narrative? Can words be used better than that?
You know what my answers to those questions would be, so I guess they're
rhetorical. (Yes, I want to be Archie when I grow up.)
Randy Money
I was thinking of how engineers built a plane that broke the sound
barrier and scientists scrambled to explain why as their previous
paradigms poofed.
Randy
Randy Money
>
> In article <3A5F3F29...@library.syr.edu>,
> Randy Money <rbm...@library.syr.edu> wrote:
> > gnohm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > But what happens in mainstream is that there's a baseline agreement
> > that "literature" is a realistic depiction of life
>
> You mean a conventional depiction of a restricted set of possible lifes,
> right?
I mean a depiction of lives not all that different from the people
around me, those who shore up the bulwark of modern society and don't
get to go galivanting off in Indiana Jones or Modesty Blaize or James
Bond style; lives with families and mortgages and electric bills,
lives lived in service to keeping some corporation running, lives
spent nurturing kids and comforting dying parents and, sometimes,
dying kids; lives that may be worthy but not noteworthy; lives of
quiet desperation and loud drinking binges, ...
Damn! Couldn't keep it serious! Still, don't go slinging rhetoric at
me, bubba, 'cause you'll just get a double stream back.
> Most of the characters in the "mainstream" genre are not much like me, nor
> like anybody I know, nor like anybody I might care about.
And no one says you have to or should. Doesn't mean there aren't
lives like that, lives that we'd be lying about if we romanticized
them, and we'd lie about if we didn't acknowledge them. Heck, even
fantasy sometimes acknowledges lives like that: see Gogol's "The
Nose".
> The lives they lead
> generally make me ask why they didn't just pull up stakes and move to the big
> city and try something new. The incidents that happen, if anything actually
> does happen, make me yawn.
Sometimes that's the fault of a none-too-good writer, not necessarily
the material.
> > Nope. Still don't agree. The range of use of tropes from metaphor
> > to synecdoche (sp?) to other figures of speech I'm forgetting the names
> > for (*ahem*)
>
> I love the named figures of speech, the exotic words, paraleipsis and zeugma
> and metonymy and oh, so many others. However,
>
> "I would appreciate it if they would call a halt on all their devoted efforts
> to find a way to abolish war or eliminate disease or run trains with atoms or
> extend the span of human life to a couple of centuries, and everybody
> concentrate for a while on how to wake me up in the morning without my
> resenting it."
>
> Is there a named figure of speech in that? (Except perhaps "American
> hyperbole, Mark Twain style"?) Is it beautifully phrased? Is it deliciously
> in character? (Archie Goodwin, in "Before Midnight") Does it fulfill its
> purpose in its place in the narrative? Can words be used better than that?
But do they contribute to anything more complex than an amusing rant,
typical of an enjoyable but never very complex character?
You want long, rhythmic, flowing sentences that really do some work,
that are occasionally funny and occasionally sad and melancholy,
you'll have to wait until I can round up my Faulkner novels.
Randy
(who also likes Rex Stout and Nero Wolfe and Archie -- if I'm guessing
the right Archie Goodwin -- and who also recognizes sturdy
entertainment when he sees it, but ain't convinced it's literature.
Hey. Here's a chance for me to plug an interesting article that
brings up some of the same things we're discussing:
http://salon.com/books/feature/2001/01/03/mysteries/index.html
This guy is a mystery fan who makes some of the same points about
mysteries we often make here about sf/f.)
Escott000
and I quit reading them).
Robert B. Parker Spenser series
Angle of Repose by Wallace Stenger
Sophie's Choice, Confessions of Nat Turner, William Styron
William T. Vollman's novels.
Alice Walker's novels.
Laura by Larry Watson
The Stone Diaries and Larry's Party by Carol Shields
Really, I read a lot other than SF.
Escott000
>
>>Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
>>literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
>>"genre" books that you've read?
>
>
Yes, if you like Mr. American, you should check out Fraser's Flashman novels if
you haven't already done so.
Fred Galvin
> "I would appreciate it if they would call a halt on all their
> devoted efforts to find a way to abolish war or eliminate disease
> or run trains with atoms or extend the span of human life to a
> couple of centuries, and everybody concentrate for a while on how
> to wake me up in the morning without my resenting it."
What is that from?
Here's my ill-considered random list of Non SF Books:
Aigner & Ziegler: Proofs from the Book
Bierce: The Devil's Dictionary
Craighead & Craighead: How to Survive on Land and Sea
Cuppy: How to Get from January to December
Fox & James: The Complete Chess Addict
Gardner: Fads and Fallacies, etc. etc.
Gould & Pyle: Anomalies and Curiosities of Medicine
Hartston: How to Cheat at Chess, Soft Pawn
Nash: Many Long Years Ago, You Can't Get There from Here, etc.
Shackleton: South
Sheckley: The Man in the Water
Sloan & Plouffe: Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences
Tartakower & DuMont: 500 Master Games
Webb: Chess for Tigers
Worsley: Shackleton's Sea Journey
--
"Science fiction is unique among the modern groupings of literature in
that the anthology is perhaps its most typical form. Not that there
are no book-length novels in the field. There are some extremely good
ones; but the method and material of science fiction lend themselves
peculiarly well to the short story." -- Fletcher Pratt
Mark Brown
<mike.sc...@ebay.sun.com> wrote:
> What examples are you thinking of, where engineers operate in advance of
> science?
William Lear, whose first in-car radio violated what was "known"
about the minimum possible size of tuning coils?
--
Mark S. Brown bm...@us.ibm.com
Senior Technical Staff Member 512.838.3926 T/L678.3926
IBM RS/6000 AIX System Architecture Mark Brown/Austin/IBM
IBM Corporation, Austin, Texas
Timothy A. McDaniel
Michael Hargreave Mawson <O...@46thFoot.com> wrote:
>In article <aPo76.11$Jy6....@ozemail.com.au>, Andrea
><te...@ozemail.com.au> writes
>>"The Daughter of Time" by Josephine Tey. A book I'll never forget
>>the experience of reading. Puts a great perspective on accepted
>>history.
>
>A wonderful book, I agree, but don't take Tey's "evidence" as
>necessarily factual. There are a couple of out-and-out errors, and a
>lot of the conclusions she draws are not really supported by the data
>she adduces.
I read _The Daughter of Time_ just after reading _Richard III_ in the
English Monarchs series (U. Cal. Press), and I thought Tey was
delivering horseshite by the cartload.
I don't remember all the details clearly, and I don't want to bother
rereading it. I think she makes much of the fact that there were no
contemporary chronicles accusing Richard III of doing any murders.
Did she not know about Dominic Mancini, or did she ignore it because
it was inconvenient? It was written up before the end of the reign,
and a foreign envoy had no particular reason to buy into any
anti-Ricardian propaganda.
>The most powerful argument in this book, and one that is frequently
>omitted by historians, is that of motive. But, whilst she makes a
>good case for Richard not having any reason to have the Princes
>killed
The fact that with the Princes dead, Richard III was beyond any
question the lawful heir of Edward IV, doesn't count as motive?!
(Yes, he'd had the Princes declared illegitimate. The case for that
was manifestly shaky. But if the Princes were dead, it didn't matter
whether the case was rock-solid or flimsy as rice paper.)
As for the reply in another article: Richard III was in a dilemma in
1485 in re showing the Princes (if they were alive then). Some people
wanted to revolt to put Edward V back on the throne. Some people
believed them to have been murdered and wanted to put Henry Tudor on
the throne. Showing the Princes would have given heart to the Ed5
legitimatists and fueled escape / rescue attempts. Not showing the
Princes gave impetus to the strange Lancastrian / Yorkist coalition
backing Henry Tudor.
--
Tim McDaniel is tm...@jump.net; if that fail,
tm...@us.ibm.com is my work account.
"To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything
up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka....@hut.fi (Jukka Korpela)
Jerry Friedman
>
> > "tirion" <neill....@ntlworld.com> writes:
> >
> > > > "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Ecco - a whodunnit set in
medieval
> > > Europe
> > > > (actually..)
"Eco"
> > > I really enjoyed 'The Island of the Day Before', for some
inexplicable
> > > reason. At least, I've yet to find anyone else who enjoyed it...
> >
> > I tried to read _The Island of the Day Before_, but it won.
>
> BTW, maybe now would be a good time to ask: should I give it another
> shot, or give up and mail it to some needy person who needs a book
> like it?
It gets better, but it's philosophical the whole way through. I trust
you're not expecting sex, violence, or gripping suspense? I enjoyed it,
but not as much as _The Name of the Rose_ or even _Foucault's Pendulum_.
--
Jerry Friedman
jfri...@nnm.cc.nm.nos
Translate nos to us / Traduzca nos en us
and all the disclaimers
gnohm...@my-deja.com
Randy Money <rbm...@library.syr.edu> wrote:
> gnohm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> I mean a depiction of lives not all that different from the people
> families and mortgages and electric bills, ...
BTDTGTTS wore it out and threw it away. Why would I want to read about it?
> Still, don't go slinging rhetoric at
> me, bubba, 'cause you'll just get a double stream back.
If you point out any contradictions in anything I've said, I'll come back
with ralph Waldo Emerson. Consider yourself warned.
> quiet desperation and loud drinking binges,
Oh, that genre.
> But do they contribute to anything more complex than an amusing rant,
> typical of an enjoyable but never very complex character?
How can you say that? I've spent a lot of time with this guy, and still
haven't got him quite figured out. That makes him as complex as people I know
in real life.
> You want long, rhythmic, flowing sentences that really do some work,
> that are occasionally funny and occasionally sad and melancholy,
> you'll have to wait until I can round up my Faulkner novels.
You keep mentioning. I'm not sure if he's one of the many "read and
forgotten" or one of the "just never happened to pick one up".
I've always been good at forgetting. There's a theory that it leaves you more
room for what's current, espoused by Einstein, Lasker, and Holmes, only one
of whom was fictional. Forgetting also makes rereading more enjoyable, so I'm
apt to forget things I like.
> sturdy entertainment ... literature.
Can't be literature. I like it. Right? Or is it because "sad and melancholy"
never puts in an appearance? (Wodehouse ain't lit? Great, I claim him as an
example of a genre wordsmith who matches or even exceeds the best
mainstreamer.)
Is mainstream required to have each of severn different emotions, and each
within a prescribed range of percentages?
> http://salon.com/books/feature/2001/01/03/mysteries/index.html
Yes, he makes some sense.
dbt...@sp2n21.missouri.edu
: Mike Schilling wrote:
: > What examples are you thinking of, where engineers operate in advance of
: > science?
: I was thinking of how engineers built a plane that broke the sound
: barrier and scientists scrambled to explain why as their previous
: paradigms poofed.
I'd have to see a cite for this one.
Jerry Friedman
Mike Ralls <MRa...@willamette.edu> wrote:
> Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
> But how about you? What are your favorite non "genre" books that
you've
> read recently? Also, I think this would be a cool award to give at
some
> con.
Lit-fi: _Anna Karenina_, _War and Peace_ (Tolstoy, as if you didn't
know)
_Song of Solomon_ (Toni Morrison, might be sf)
_Sometimes a Great Notion_ (Ken Kesey)
_All the Pretty Horses_, _Cities of the Plain_ (Cormac McCarthy--I
didn't like _The Crossing_ quite as much.)
_Pale Fire_ (Vladimir Nabokov)
_Carmen_ (Prosper Merimee, a novella)
_The King Must Die_, _The Bull from the Sea_ (Mary Renault, might be sf.
These are the first mainstream books I'd recommend to a fantasy
reader.)
Semi-fantasy escapist literary genre: _World of Wonders_, _What's Bred
in the Bone_ (Robertson Davies)
Mystery/crime: _Gaudy Night_, _Busman's Honeymoon_ (Dorothy L. Sayers)
Spenser series (Robert Parker)
_Brat Farrar_ (Josephine Tey)
I've also liked many other books by these same authors.
--
Jerry Friedman
jfri...@nnm.cc.nm.nos
Translate nos to us / Traduzca nos en us
and all the disclaimers
Randy Money
>
> In article <3A5F6361...@library.syr.edu>,
> Randy Money <rbm...@library.syr.edu> wrote:
> > gnohm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > I mean a depiction of lives not all that different from the people
> > around me, those who shore up the bulwark of modern society and ...
> > families and mortgages and electric bills, ...
>
> BTDTGTTS wore it out and threw it away. Why would I want to read about it?
Don't know. Maybe some of the folks that would want to read about the
dispossessed Okies who fled to California only to find more social
injustice? Anyway, I'm just saying not everyone shares that opinion.
> > Still, don't go slinging rhetoric at
> > me, bubba, 'cause you'll just get a double stream back.
>
> If you point out any contradictions in anything I've said, I'll come back
> with ralph Waldo Emerson. Consider yourself warned.
Gotta admit, that made the knees quiver some.
> > quiet desperation and loud drinking binges,
>
> Oh, that genre.
Yup. Pretty broad ranging one, at that.
> > But do they contribute to anything more complex than an amusing rant,
> > typical of an enjoyable but never very complex character?
>
> How can you say that? I've spent a lot of time with this guy, and still
> haven't got him quite figured out. That makes him as complex as people I know
> in real life.
Goodwin's fun, I admit, like so many wiseass characters in fiction.
But not complex. He's a variation, slightly brighter in some ways,
slightly dimmer in others, of '30s tough-guy detectives. Sometimes he
seems to have to hide his light so Nero can look good.
> > You want long, rhythmic, flowing sentences that really do some work,
> > that are occasionally funny and occasionally sad and melancholy,
> > you'll have to wait until I can round up my Faulkner novels.
>
> You keep mentioning. I'm not sure if he's one of the many "read and
> forgotten" or one of the "just never happened to pick one up".
He's not for everyone. Some people get caught up in the rhythm of his
prose, their jaws drop and they whisk along wondering how anyone could
write like that. Others feel much the same, only in a negative way.
> > sturdy entertainment ... literature.
>
> Can't be literature. I like it. Right? Or is it because "sad and melancholy"
> never puts in an appearance? (Wodehouse ain't lit? Great, I claim him as an
> example of a genre wordsmith who matches or even exceeds the best
> mainstreamer.)
Maybe a recognition that life, and especially the reactions and
behavior of people, is more complex than cause/effect? Maybe
recognition that society is fallible, as are people? Maybe
recognition that people are inconsistent, and what they believe and
how they act are often at odds?
And believe it or not, it can be done and still be entertaining, even
funny. (_The World According to Garp_ comes to mind.)
> Is mainstream required to have each of severn different emotions, and each
> within a prescribed range of percentages?
>
> > http://salon.com/books/feature/2001/01/03/mysteries/index.html
>
> Yes, he makes some sense.
I thought so, too. I think his criticism of modern lit. is maybe too
general -- I'd like him to cite examples and then beat on them. But
overall I agree. There's a lot to be said for genre fiction -- hey,
I'm no troll here -- but I think a lot of genre could (and probably
do) learn from the more mainstream folks. I especially like how he
ranks the entertainers -- that's something I think needs to be
stressed more: you can write well and even subtlely, write stuff that
doesn't insult the readers' intelligence, touch on the grand themes of
literature, and still offer something entertaining.
Randy M.
(of course, we then we'll get stuck on definitions of entertaining
...)
Randy Money
I read that so many years ago, I don't recall where. If I can find a
cite, I'll pass it along, but I'm not holding much hope at this point.
Randy M.
lal_truckee
I presume that in your universe firearms never existed, so that
"scientists" could not measure the speed of a bullet?
Otherwise I guess I don't understand what paradigms "poofed" at the
astonishing advent of "a plane that broke the sound barrier."
All fun aside, the X-1 was shaped to emulate a bullet, for everyone knew
a bullet could go faster than the speed of sound. All cognizant persons
knew it was possible scientifically or technically. (I say cognizant to
exclude reporters, politicians, and their ilk.)
Scott Beeler
>"American Tabloid" by James Ellroy -smash talking crime fiction
I read mostly SF, but other than that I go largely for mysteries.
After seeing the fabulous _LA Confidential_ movie, I picked up
Ellroy's LA Quartet books. I've only read _The Black Dahlia_ so far,
but that was a great intricate mystery/crime story.
I love William Marshall's mysteries, especially the Yellowthread
Street books; police procedurals in Hong Kong, mixing equally great
action, humor, and mystery. _Thin Air_, _Sci Fi_ (not SF, just set
during a huge SF convention), and _Perfect End_ are my faves of those.
Overall probably my favorite non-SF author.
Recently I've started Greg Rucka's books about the bodyguard Atticus
Kodiak, starting with _Keeper_. Excellent thrilling writing, good
characters and gripping plotting.
I also like Laurie R. King's works, particularly the Russell/Holmes
novels (in fact I've only read one so far of hers not in that series).
I've read only _The Club Dumas_ so far by Arturo Perez-Reverte, but
quite enjoyed that, and am looking forward to reading more.
And for a wild card, Lemony Snicket's tragic children's-story "Series
of Unfortunate Events".
--
Scott Beeler scbe...@mindspring.com
Jerry Friedman
gnohm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <3A5E14B8...@library.syr.edu>,
> Randy Money <rbm...@library.syr.edu> wrote:
> > gnohm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > Steinbeck! How can you call that anything but?
> >
> > I'd love to hear the justification for these assertions.
>
> If I read one more rant about the Land, I'll -- I'll -- I'll stop
reading
> this guy, that's what I'll do. [...time passes and pages are
turned...]
> Aaaargh!
>
> It seems to me that genre is a term used for writings that are in some
way
> formulaic, but that almost every author's works can be shown to follow
some
> pattern or formula once you've read enough of them.
>
> In the case of the whodunit, the formula is obvious, and there are
multiple
> authors following the same formula. Both Kinsey Millhone and Victoria
> Iphigenia Warshawski are excellent reads, but they follow the formula
of
> Travis McGee so closely, maybe ninety per cent. (A genre within a
genre.) The
> genreness is brazenly evident.
"The" whodunit? What you say is true about certain authors (I've only
read _A is for Alibi_, and no Paretsky, so I can't comment on those).
But the Mystery section also contains _Brat Farrar_, and _Spinsters in
Jeopardy_ by Ngaio Marsh, where at the end you say, "Oh, I guess there
was a mystery, but that's hardly what I cared about." Not to mention
some Julian Symons and at least one P. D. James, where there was no
mystery at all, just a crime story, maybe in the same genre as _Crime
and Punishment_.
And "mainstream" writers write about crime, and formerly even about
solving crimes. Some of the best works in the genre are a lot like
works by the best writers outside of the genre, in subject matter and in
quality.
Is all this true of sf? Perhaps even more. The best writers will write
sf when it suits them, and "mundane" when that suits them, and readers
should not be led astray by marketing categories.
...
--
Jerry Friedman
jfri...@nnm.cc.nm.nos
Translate nos to us / Traduzca nos en us
and all the disclaimers
Jerry Friedman
a...@silmarill.org wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 04:32:15 GMT, Mike Ralls <MRa...@willamette.edu>
wrote:
> >Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres
of
> >literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> >"genre" books that you've read?
...
doesn't
> focus on technology/science affect on our future life. Yeah, there are
these
> monitors but.. it's a minor point imho.
IMho, a more important point is that psychology is advanced *far* beyond
anything in the real world. How did the bad persons know what Smith's
worst fear was, or the details of his nightmares about it, when he
suppressed what was on the other side of the wall even from himself? I
know nothing to suggest that this is even possible.
Brom O'Berin
>Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
>literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
>"genre" books that you've read?
>But how about you? What are your favorite non "genre" books that you've
>read recently? Also, I think this would be a cool award to give at some
>con.
Count of Monte Cristo & Three Musketeers - Dumas
Shakespeare
nautical fiction - Forester, Pope ... Kent started well, tapered off
..OBrien ... didn't make the grade.
Clancy, Bond, Coyle, Griffin. Brown started very well ... but ..
L'Amour. Read all of Z Grey when young.
ERB
Donald Hamilton & John D MacDonald
Desmond Bagley ... Geoffrey Jenkins
The Great Santini
Catch-22
Gardens of Stone
Mary Stewart
Harry Patterson
early Alister MacLean
early Lustbader
Preston & Childs
Crichton
Contact - Sagan
N. de Mille
'nuff for now ..
Brom
Oldayz
>In article <INs76.27$9z4....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> a...@silmarill.org wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 04:32:15 GMT, Mike Ralls <MRa...@willamette.edu>
>wrote:
>> >Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres
>of
>> >literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
>> >"genre" books that you've read?
>...
>> 4. 1984 by George Orwell - I don't consider it to be scifi because it
>doesn't
>> focus on technology/science affect on our future life. Yeah, there are
>these
>> monitors but.. it's a minor point imho.
>
>IMho, a more important point is that psychology is advanced *far* beyond
>anything in the real world. How did the bad persons know what Smith's
>worst fear was, or the details of his nightmares about it, when he
>suppressed what was on the other side of the wall even from himself? I
>know nothing to suggest that this is even possible.
>...
Huh? Well this one is easy - when his girl mentions rats attacking children
Winston is so overcome with fear he can hardly talk. Naturally, this episode
was recorded and analyzed.
>
>--
>Jerry Friedman
>jfri...@nnm.cc.nm.nos
>Translate nos to us / Traduzca nos en us
>and all the disclaimers
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com
>http://www.deja.com/
--
Andrei
Mike Schilling
Elaine Thompson
McDaniel) wrote:
>In article <A9oRb4Fa...@hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk>,
>Michael Hargreave Mawson <O...@46thFoot.com> wrote:
>>In article <aPo76.11$Jy6....@ozemail.com.au>, Andrea
>><te...@ozemail.com.au> writes
>>>"The Daughter of Time" by Josephine Tey. A book I'll never forget
>>>the experience of reading. Puts a great perspective on accepted
>>>history.
>>
>>A wonderful book, I agree, but don't take Tey's "evidence" as
>>necessarily factual. There are a couple of out-and-out errors, and a
>>lot of the conclusions she draws are not really supported by the data
>>she adduces.
>
>I read _The Daughter of Time_ just after reading _Richard III_ in the
>English Monarchs series (U. Cal. Press), and I thought Tey was
>delivering horseshite by the cartload.
>
>I don't remember all the details clearly, and I don't want to bother
>rereading it. I think she makes much of the fact that there were no
>contemporary chronicles accusing Richard III of doing any murders.
>Did she not know about Dominic Mancini, or did she ignore it because
>it was inconvenient? It was written up before the end of the reign,
The Mancini stuff was not dug up by scholars till after Tey
published, IIRC.
What bugged me about Tey was the assumption that declaring the kids
illegitimate made them non-threats to Richard III. However much he
may have loved his brother, as long as those boys were alive they
would be threats to him because some people would always see them as
legitimate. Not to mention they'd been raised to think they were
princes and heirs to the throne, they wouldn't lie down quietly and
let Richard rule in peace if they grew up and were free.
Tey tells a good story, and the reminder about taking your history
with salt is worthwhile, but the case for Richard III not killing the
kids is very weak.
snip
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Phil Fraering
> Here's my ill-considered random list of Non SF Books:
>
> Aigner & Ziegler: Proofs from the Book
> Bierce: The Devil's Dictionary
> Craighead & Craighead: How to Survive on Land and Sea
> Cuppy: How to Get from January to December
Is that Will Cuppy, of _The Decline and Fall of Practically Everybody_
fame?
> Shackleton: South
I have this on my to-read pile.
> Webb: Chess for Tigers
An intriguing title.
--
Phil Fraering
p...@globalreach.net
Debian Sid PowerPC Crash Test Dummy
Luke Silburn
wrote:
[snip]
>
>nautical fiction - Forester, Pope ... Kent started well, tapered off
>..OBrien ... didn't make the grade.
>
especially) into a cocked hat. How do you think he falls short?
Luke
Richard Horton
>
>
>Richard Horton wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:51:16 +0000, "Andrew C. Wheeler"
>> <andyw...@ultracom.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Stella Gibbons, COLD COMFORT FARM
>>
>> Beep! This is a science fiction novel! If not, explain to me the
>> Anglo-Nicaraguan War, and the Picture Phones.
>
>
>
>One could argue that the SF trappings in COLD COMFORT do not relate to the actual main story in
>any way, and have no effect on any of the characters. The movie version of the book which came
>out a couple years ago simply omitted the SF element in the beginning of the story, with no loss
>of quality at all.
That's true, and I do rather wonder why Gibbons put the SF bits in
there.
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.sfsite.com/tangent)
Brenda
Phil Fraering wrote:
> > Shackleton: South
>
> I have this on my to-read pile.
I'm told that public TV is putting together a Shackleton show, for NOVA.
Quick, Robin, to the VCR...
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of DOORS OF DEATH AND LIFE
From Tor Books in May 2000
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Linda Wolfe
Mike Ralls wrote:
>
> Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
Joseph Heller's _Catch-22_. I noticed only two people (so far!) have
mentioned this book at all. It's a little surprising to me, but of
course there are many books out there, and not enough time to read
even a fraction of them. Anyway, this is definitely at the top of
my list. It touched me in a profound way. However, if you dislike
tricky timelines, this is not the book for you. The phrase
"hairpin turns" comes to mind. He has a habit of completely changing
the character and setting he is talking about in the middle of a
sentence. However, it all ends up fitting together in a very subtle
and satisying way.
John Andrew Fairhurst
> Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
>
The Historical stuff:
The Brother Cadfael books by Ellis Peters;
most of the Georgette Heyers books I've read (used to be really into
these in my early teens. Still okay.);
the Sharpe books by Bernard Cornwell;
Thriller type stuff:
Jack Higgins' present day stuff;
most of Frederick Forsyth's books (though some might be veering towards
AH...)
That seems to be a particular problem with people like Tom Clancy & Clive
Cusler; they're headed into AH worlds or trying to add SF elements which
tend to 'spoil' otherwise good adventure stories (imho).
--
John Fairhurst
In Association with Amazon worldwide:
http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk
John Andrew Fairhurst
O...@46thFoot.com says...
> I think that most of my favourite non-genre novels have elements in them
> that would normally be found in SF - "Sophie's World" (Jostein Gaarder)
> for example, is hardly a "normal" fiction book.
>
I liked this while they were doing the course but the final few chapters
were just too strange for me to cope :-(
John Andrew Fairhurst
O...@46thFoot.com says...
> But, whilst she makes a good
> very good reasons for him to want them to remain alive, she does not
> make a convincing case for anyone else to have killed them.
>
>
Was Henry VII added by the BBC when they broadcast it then?
Matt Ruff / Lisa Gold
>
> Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other
> genres of literature. What are some of your favorite non SF,
> non horror, non "genre" books that you've read?
"Clockers" and "Freedomland" by Richard Price.
"Refiner's Fire" by Mark Helprin.
"Flatland Fable" and "Apologizing to Dogs" by Joe Coomer.
"Gospel" and "Emma Who Saved My Life" by Wilton Barnhardt.
"Almanac of the Dead" by Leslie Marmon Silko.
"The Monkey-Wrench Gang" by Edward Abbey.
-- M. Ruff
Jo Walton
gor...@NOSPAMwhite-crane.com "Guy Gordon" writes:
> gnohm...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >All books are some "genre", aren't they? Thus there is no such thing as a
> >nongenre book!
>
> To what genre does "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" belong?
> I've always been curious about that. :-)
It's in the same genre as Plato's _The Laws_ and _The Republic_ and
Karl Popper's _The Open Society and Its Enemies_ and Stafford Beer's
_Platform for Change_ and Jane Jacobs _Systems of Survival_.
Not a huge genre, but a surprisingly stimulating one.
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk Take the rasfw pledge
*THE KING'S PEACE* out now! From Tor Books and good bookshops everywhere.
More info, Tir Tanagiri Map & Poetry etc at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Mike Dworetsky
tirion wrote:
>
> > "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Ecco - a whodunnit set in medieval
> Europe
> > (actually..)
>
> I really enjoyed 'The Island of the Day Before', for some inexplicable
> reason. At least, I've yet to find anyone else who enjoyed it...
Yes, I liked it too! It is science fiction, in a sense, though the
science is 17th C. not 21st C.
You are not alone, then.
--
Mike Dworetsky
Mike Dworetsky
Mike Ralls wrote:
>
> Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
>
> For me they would be:
>
> "Mr. American" by George MacDonald Fraiser
> An excellent book about England before WWII. Well researched as always
> and has excellent characterization and plotline. It's the trip of an
> American who became rich and went to England to discover his roots and
> gets involved in English social life. Great ending that really put it
> all together.
>
I'd also recommend:
All the Flashman books by George MacDonald Fraser;
Anything by Mary Renault (e.g., The King Must Die, The Bull from the
Sea, The Praise Singer, etc) set in the ancient Greek world;
C.S. Forrester's Hornblower novels.
YMMV
My wife would recommend Lindsey Davis 'mystery' novels set in ancient
Rome.
--
Mike Dworetsky
Michael Grosberg
Mike Ralls <MRa...@willamette.edu> wrote in message
news:93jd0f$7i4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
> literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> "genre" books that you've read?
>
I read mostly non-american authors, mostly those with some surreal or
supernatural touches in their writings.
Some of my favorites are:
Gabriel Garcia Markes (sp?) - A hunderd years of lonelyness, Love in days of
Cholera
Josef Heller - Catch 22
Emile Ajar - La vie devant soi
Salman Rushdie - The Satanic Verses
Michail Bulgakov - Master and Margarita
Phil Fraering
> It's in the same genre as Plato's _The Laws_ and _The Republic_ and
> Karl Popper's _The Open Society and Its Enemies_ and Stafford Beer's
> _Platform for Change_ and Jane Jacobs _Systems of Survival_.
For a split second I read one of those as "Stafford's _Beer Platform
for Change_" which made me wonder.
Sherwood Smith
Mmmm lots of overlap (O'Brian, Austen, Nabokov) and this summer I plan
to tackle Powell.
For me add in Wodehouse (early); L.M. Montgomery's journals (when I
can get them away from my daughter) some of George Elliott, some of
Gaskell, Henry James' essays...ooops, not fiction, as Montgomery's
journals aren't--so I'll stay with her stories.
Latest discovery: Penelope Fitzgerald.
Latest guilty pleasure: Frederick Marryat.
Old guilty pleasure: Patrick Dennis.
Matthew Austern
> On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:51:16 +0000, "Andrew C. Wheeler"
> <andyw...@ultracom.net> wrote:
>
> >Stella Gibbons, COLD COMFORT FARM
>
> Beep! This is a science fiction novel! If not, explain to me the
> Anglo-Nicaraguan War, and the Picture Phones.
Not to mention the free government-sponsored psychoanalysis, and the
private airplane economy.
Matthew Austern
> Otherwise I guess I don't understand what paradigms "poofed" at the
> astonishing advent of "a plane that broke the sound barrier."
>
> All fun aside, the X-1 was shaped to emulate a bullet, for everyone knew
> a bullet could go faster than the speed of sound. All cognizant persons
> knew it was possible scientifically or technically. (I say cognizant to
> exclude reporters, politicians, and their ilk.)
The fact that things can go faster than sound certainly has been known
for a very long time. I've heard it claimed, though, that people once
believed that controlled, powered flight faster than sound was
impossible. It was the control, supposedly, that was believed to be
hard.
Ashland Henderson
The Adventures of Hiram Holliday Author: Paul Gallico
Adventures of an American newspaperman in Europe just prior to World War II.
Funny, touching, exciting, and stunningly well written. If you have ever
dreamed dreams of adventure, you should not miss this book. Few writers can
touch you the way Gallico can.
The Cowboy and the Cossack Author: Clair Huffaker
Adventures of a small group of Montana cowboys and an equal group of
Cossacks taking a herd of Longhorns from Valdivostok across Siberia a free
cossack town. Told first person by one of the cowbows. Funny, touching, and
altogether wonderful.
Gerfalcon Author: Leslie Barringer
A novel of the high middle ages with some very minor fantasy elements.
Complex characters, desperate deeds, and all well written. What more can you
say.
Grey Maiden Author: Arthur D. Howden Smith
A collection of stories about a sword. "Grey Maiden" was the first iron
sword and embodies the spirit of all swords. There's nothing else quite like
these stories. The collection I have ranges from the battle of Marathon to
the Spanish Armada, each written in a style compatable with the era of the
story. Beyond the sword itself, there is no magic in it, but it's a
wonderful read.
The Harp and the Blade Author: John Myers Myers
Adventure in 11th century Brittany with a wandering Irish bard. Some good
song poetry that should be set to music. A solid feel for the era and good
writing.
Looking For Dilmun Author: Geoffrey Bibby
Bibby is an archaeologist and this is the non-fiction story of a Danish
archaeology expedition to the island of Bahrain in search of the ancient but
little known civilization of Dilmun. It makes for fascinating reading for
anyone interested in ancient times or archaeology in general.
Nada the Lily Author: H. Rider Haggard
Books like "King Solomon's Mines" by Haggard are more well known, but Nada
is perhaps the best book he wrote. A tale of the Zulu people under Chaka.
There are some minor fantasy elements but it's basically a story of dreadful
doings and revenge that is quite gripping.
The Old Man and the Boy Author: Robert Ruark
A book about growing up hunting and fishing in the rural south of the United
States during prohibition. Not politically correct but a heck of a good read
and a look at a different society than most of us are used to these days.
Red Adam's Lady Author: Grace Ingram
A historical novel about the time of Henry II in England. It looks like, but
is not, a bodice ripper. The author has all of her historical details
smack-on and it is a fine read with a very good feel for the time.
Slim Author: William Wister Haines
Maybe the best book about a working man ever written. It's about line work
in the 1930's which doesn't sound exciting but is.
The White Company Author: Arthur Conan Doyle
The adventures of a small company of English longbowmen during the time of
the Black Prince in medieval Europe. Doyle is more famous for the Sherlock
Holmes stories but he considered this his best novel.
Dylan Alexander
> > Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
> > literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
> > "genre" books that you've read?
> >
Bernard Cornwell's Richard Sharpe series. Follows the
path of a British solider during the Peninsular Wars
against Napoleon (and through Waterloo, but I haven't
read that far).
Most of the stories are fictionalized versions of actual
(often wildly improbable) events. The Historical Notes
at the end of each story are wondeful.
Muskets, cavalary sabres, grapeshot, and intrigue. I
can say with no hyperbole I have never read an author
who makes a battle scene seem as real and horrible as
actually being there.
--
Dylan Alexander
Richard Horton
sherwoo...@worldnet.damnspamatt.net (Sherwood Smith) wrote:
>
>Mmmm lots of overlap (O'Brian, Austen, Nabokov) and this summer I plan
>to tackle Powell.
>
>For me add in Wodehouse (early); L.M. Montgomery's journals (when I
>can get them away from my daughter) some of George Elliott, some of
>Gaskell, Henry James' essays...ooops, not fiction, as Montgomery's
>journals aren't--so I'll stay with her stories.
>
>Latest discovery: Penelope Fitzgerald.
>
More overlap: I knew I'd forget someone important in my list, and I
did. Fitzgerald is one of my favorite writers.
(It brings to mind the ways I discover writers. I discovered Kingsley
Amis in part because of _New Maps of Hell_ and the _Spectrum_
anthologies (which of course I read because I like SF), and when I
read Amis' Memoirs he mentioned Powell (Powell and Amis were close
friends), and more important he mentioned _A Dance to the Music of
Time_ in terms that described how enjoyable it really is, and then one
of the editions of a _Dance_ book I read had an advertisement for some
of Fitzgerald's books in the back and they looked good ...)
Brom O'Berin
Probably mostly a matter of taste. When I tried to read Master and
Commander (oh, about 5-10 years ago ...) I managed to get about 50-100
pages in before giving up. IMHO, M&C wasn't just boring ... it was
BORING ... and left a definite impression that O'Brien was out of his
depth with the age of sail. (I know ... he's supposed to be a naval
historian ... and I can't give the specifics of why I had that feeling
then ... ).
I read Forester as a teen, picked up reading Pope while in the service
(which made it a whole lot easier to obtain his Fontana Press
paperbacks ...), enjoyed Kent until Sir Richard ... could do no wrong
... even Lewrie was interesting.
By far the worst Napoleonic nautical fiction I ever started - I don't
even remember the author - after about ten pages in, and 'our hero',
who was ticked off about being on board a King's frigate, about being
a Marine officer (he wanted to be in the Army) in charge of the Royal
Marine riffraff, who had let the captain and wardroom become aware of
his feeling, thus was not being appreciated for his stellar qualities
and personality ... had an overblown sense or his own personal honor
and worth, so despite being in the middle of a battle with a French
ship, took offense to some command of the captain's and responded by
challenging the captain then and there to a duel ... AND the captain
backed down ...
This was all in the first 10 pages ... this one went back to the
library ...
Brom
Sherwood Smith
<rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>(It brings to mind the ways I discover writers. I discovered Kingsley
>Amis in part because of _New Maps of Hell_ and the _Spectrum_
>anthologies (which of course I read because I like SF), and when I
>read Amis' Memoirs he mentioned Powell (Powell and Amis were close
>friends), and more important he mentioned _A Dance to the Music of
>Time_ in terms that described how enjoyable it really is, and then one
>of the editions of a _Dance_ book I read had an advertisement for some
>of Fitzgerald's books in the back and they looked good ...)
Snarf?! I came across Powell while reading Evelyn Waugh's letters and
diaries. He being one of my Alien Minds, as is Nabokov. But it was
this mention, your praise of the roman fleuve, plus that of a local
friend whose tastes intersect with mine, that caused me to start
hunting out copies of the whole, and lay 'em in for June.
Ashland Henderson
news:130120011027414647%dyl...@postsmart.net...
It's pretty good stuff. My wife loved them. The BBC also
produced a pretty good series of them, at least 8 of which
are available on DVD.
Ashland Henderson
news:3a60949d...@news.earthlink.net...
> silb...@claranet.co.uk (Luke Silburn) wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 12 Jan 2001 23:12:13 GMT, bobe...@yahoo.com (Brom O'Berin)
> >wrote:
> >[snip]
> >>
> >>nautical fiction - Forester, Pope ... Kent started well, tapered off
> >>..OBrien ... didn't make the grade.
> >>
> >In what way exactly? I think O'Brien knocks the other three (Pope
> >especially) into a cocked hat. How do you think he falls short?
>
> Probably mostly a matter of taste. When I tried to read Master and
> Commander (oh, about 5-10 years ago ...) I managed to get about 50-100
> pages in before giving up. IMHO, M&C wasn't just boring ... it was
> BORING ... and left a definite impression that O'Brien was out of his
> depth with the age of sail. (I know ... he's supposed to be a naval
> historian ... and I can't give the specifics of why I had that feeling
> then ... ).
I didn't find the first few that boring, but I didn't, and don't, find they
anything like as good as Forester. When I hit the first one where
most of the action took place on land I simply lost interest. Forester
I still re-read regularly.
> I read Forester as a teen, picked up reading Pope while in the service
> (which made it a whole lot easier to obtain his Fontana Press
> paperbacks ...), enjoyed Kent until Sir Richard ... could do no wrong
> ... even Lewrie was interesting.
I had a very similar experience with Kent. The next time I need space
on my shelves he won't make the cut.
> By far the worst Napoleonic nautical fiction I ever started - I don't
> even remember the author - after about ten pages in, and 'our hero',
> who was ticked off about being on board a King's frigate, about being
> a Marine officer (he wanted to be in the Army) in charge of the Royal
> Marine riffraff, who had let the captain and wardroom become aware of
> his feeling, thus was not being appreciated for his stellar qualities
> and personality ... had an overblown sense or his own personal honor
> and worth, so despite being in the middle of a battle with a French
> ship, took offense to some command of the captain's and responded by
> challenging the captain then and there to a duel ... AND the captain
> backed down ...
>
> This was all in the first 10 pages ... this one went back to the
> library ...
Sounds pretty bad.
Ann Burlingham
_Housekeeping_, Marilyn Robinson.
Robert McCloskey, _Homer Price_ and _Centerburg Tales_.
Any Georgette Heyer.
Any Peter Dickinson, in any genre.
Eleanor Farjeon, _Martin Pippin in the Apple Orchard_ (with some
fantasy elements, arguably).
Laurie R. King's mysteries.
The late, lamented Sarah Caudwell.
NPR folk - Bailey White, David Sedaris, Sarah Vowell.
Only to name a few, really.
Ann Burlingham
> _The High Window_, _Farewell, My Lovely_, _The Little Sister_, _The
> Lady in the Lake_ and _The Long Goodbye_, all by Raymond Chandler
> Chandler was the writer who brought literary style and substance to
> the hard-boiled detective novel in the 1940s. His work suffers a bit
> by age, but still packs a punch, especially because his writing style
> with its flurries of similies always threatens to become too much --
> it's sort of like watching Jimmy Cagney act, you keep wondering when
> he's going to tip over into self-parody yet he rarely does.
I really, really like this description. There's a New Yorker
parody - E. B. White, alone or in collaboration? - from years
back - "Farewell, My <something>" (doggoneit, I'd swear _The
second tree from the corner_ was *right* *here*), as well as many
other parodies of those similes, over the years.
> In a
> sense, Chandler reminds me of writers like Poe, who don't seem to have
> much range, who write from within an almost claustrophobic set of
> obsessions; at the same time, he can be laugh-out-loud funny.
> Chandler was a major influence, I think,on the cyberpunks, at least
> stylistically.
On lots of people, by report. One of these days I'll have to read
the books (sure, I've seem the movies).
Ann Burlingham
> Anything written by P.G. Wodehouse, but with a strong bias towards
> the Jeeves & Wooster books.
For some reason, it's the Mulliners I return to. Maybe just when
I need most to be cheered up, quickly. (No substitute for
Mulliner's Buck-U-Uppo.)
M.E.Tonkin
Sherwood Smith wrote:
>
>
> Old guilty pleasure: Patrick Dennis.
I just saw mention of a new biography of him,
by Eric Meyers, called *Uncle Mame*.
MET
Sherwood Smith
wrote:
Fancy that! I thought he'd sunk completely out of sight. Must check
it out. Thanks!
Martin Wisse
wrote:
>Just curious to see how SF fans translate in regarding other genres of
>literature. What are some of your favorite non SF, non horror, non
>"genre" books that you've read?
>
>For me they would be:
>
>"Mr. American" by George MacDonald Fraiser
>An excellent book about England before WWII. Well researched as always
>and has excellent characterization and plotline. It's the trip of an
>American who became rich and went to England to discover his roots and
>gets involved in English social life. Great ending that really put it
>all together.
I quite like his Flashman books which, as you know Bob, are historical
novels depicting the further adventures of the cad and bounder from _Tom
Brown's Schooldays_, one of those sickly moral victorian novels.
Needless to say, the flashman books are much more enjoyable....
>"The Road To Wigan Pier" By George Orwell
>A very touching account of the Great Depression in Britain. Orwell is
>every conservative's favorite liberal and every liberal's favorite
>conservative and that holds for me too. Orwell can WRITE, by god and he
>gets so much right that I just envy his sense of perception.
Coincidentally, I've been reading his collected essays and journalism
today and you're quite right about his perception. His use of language
is also very good, economical yet still able to get the details just
right.
Weird thing is, I used to dislike him, when I had to read _Animal Farm_
and _1984_ for English Literature.
>But how about you? What are your favorite non "genre" books that you've
>read recently? Also, I think this would be a cool award to give at some
>con.
Other authors:
-Kipling's poems and stories, which are excellent.
-C.S. Forester's Horatio Hornblower stories, "Honor Harrington at sea".
-Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe detective stories.
-Dorothy L. Sayers, _Murder Must Advertise_ Excellent detectives and an
use of language which is just yummy.
-Mary Renault's historical novels
-Douglas Coupland, _Microserfs_, one of those books *every* geek should
read.
Etc.
Martin Wisse
--
...British writers all eventually get around to
the smell of overcooked cabbage.
-Lucy Kemnitzer, rasseff
Michael Hargreave Mawson
<tm...@jump.net> writes
>In article <A9oRb4Fa...@hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk>,
>Michael Hargreave Mawson <O...@46thFoot.com> wrote:
>>In article <aPo76.11$Jy6....@ozemail.com.au>, Andrea
>><te...@ozemail.com.au> writes
>>>"The Daughter of Time" by Josephine Tey. A book I'll never forget
>>>the experience of reading. Puts a great perspective on accepted
>>>history.
>>
>>A wonderful book, I agree, but don't take Tey's "evidence" as
>>necessarily factual. There are a couple of out-and-out errors, and a
>>lot of the conclusions she draws are not really supported by the data
>>she adduces.
>
>I read _The Daughter of Time_ just after reading _Richard III_ in the
>English Monarchs series (U. Cal. Press), and I thought Tey was
>delivering horseshite by the cartload.
Yes, but most enjoyable equine excreta. :-)
>
>I don't remember all the details clearly, and I don't want to bother
>rereading it. I think she makes much of the fact that there were no
>contemporary chronicles accusing Richard III of doing any murders.
>Did she not know about Dominic Mancini, or did she ignore it because
>it was inconvenient? It was written up before the end of the reign,
>and a foreign envoy had no particular reason to buy into any
>anti-Ricardian propaganda.
As another poster has pointed out, it is quite likely that she didn't
know about Mancini. In any case, relying on Mancini without further
evidence is not exactly rigorous history.
>
>>The most powerful argument in this book, and one that is frequently
>>omitted by historians, is that of motive. But, whilst she makes a
>>good case for Richard not having any reason to have the Princes
>>killed
>
>The fact that with the Princes dead, Richard III was beyond any
>question the lawful heir of Edward IV, doesn't count as motive?!
>(Yes, he'd had the Princes declared illegitimate. The case for that
>was manifestly shaky. But if the Princes were dead, it didn't matter
>whether the case was rock-solid or flimsy as rice paper.)
Indeed that does not count as motive. Remember that he was appointed
Protector/Regent when the princes were certainly still alive, and before
they had been denounced as illegitimate. The powers that be wanted
Richard to rule: Richard murdering the princes would certainly have
changed a few minds about that. Such a talented tactician as the Duke
of Gloucester would not have rushed pell-mell for a murder option he did
not need to implement for a decade when he had a strong motive to keep
the boys alive to prove his honourable conduct. The declaration of
illegitimacy came so fast that I am tempted to believe that this was no
political ploy by Richard, but something that he actually believed, and
felt he had to act upon immediately.
>
>As for the reply in another article: Richard III was in a dilemma in
>1485 in re showing the Princes (if they were alive then). Some people
>wanted to revolt to put Edward V back on the throne.
Who? I can think of no good reason to want to replace a competent
ruler with a minor, unless you believed that you could obtain the
Protectorate.
> Some people
>believed them to have been murdered and wanted to put Henry Tudor on
>the throne.
Some people wanted to put Henry Tudor on the throne, and conveniently
came up with the idea that Richard had had the princes murdered.
> Showing the Princes would have given heart to the Ed5
>legitimatists and fueled escape / rescue attempts.
How many EV legitimatists were there? Who were they?
> Not showing the
>Princes gave impetus to the strange Lancastrian / Yorkist coalition
>backing Henry Tudor.
If your premise is true, Richard was damned if he did, and damned if he
didn't. Why then would he have killed the princes, and deprived
himself of an option for the future?
ATB
--
Mike
Michael Hargreave Mawson, author of "Eyewitness in the Crimea,"
to be published by Greenhill Books in March, 2001.
See http://www.hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk/Books.html for details.
Michael Hargreave Mawson
Fairhurst <Jo...@johnsbooks.co.uk> writes
>In article <A9oRb4Fa...@hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk>,
>O...@46thFoot.com says...
>> But, whilst she makes a good
>> case for Richard not having any reason to have the Princes killed, and
>> very good reasons for him to want them to remain alive, she does not
>> make a convincing case for anyone else to have killed them.
>>
>>
>
>Was Henry VII added by the BBC when they broadcast it then?
You think she made a convincing case for Henry having murdered them? I
don't.