It's not URBAN fantasy, it's CONTEMPORARY fantasy.
Ken from Chicago
fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
fantasy"?
-- Ken from Chicago
Michael Grosberg
wrote:
We can't, because "contemporary Fantasy" already has a meaning:
fantasy that was written recently or is written now.
Anyway, what's wrong with the name "urban fantasy"? genre names don't
have to be literal or accurate. Space Opera usually does not have any
singing or music in it (although somebody ought to do a space based
opera some day).
Martin Kaletsch
> On Apr 10, 1:07 pm, "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
>> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
>> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>>
>> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>> fantasy"?
>>
>> -- Ken from Chicago
>
> We can't, because "contemporary Fantasy" already has a meaning:
> fantasy that was written recently or is written now.
Charles DeLint described his books (years befor the current trend) as
contemporary fantasy.
> Anyway, what's wrong with the name "urban fantasy"? genre names don't
> have to be literal or accurate. Space Opera usually does not have any
> singing or music in it (although somebody ought to do a space based
> opera some day).
Also true.
--
Martin Kaletsch
art...@yahoo.com
wrote:
Space Opera usually does not have any
> singing or music in it (although somebody ought to do a space based
> opera some day).
I heard one about a car that went into space and circled a star in the
Orion constellation.
Rigel Auto!
Dorothy J Heydt
Already done. Karl-Birger Blomdahl's _Aniara._
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Sea Wasp
No. The term's already been created. And it brings to mind magic
juxtaposed with modern-day, which is the real purpose of the phrase;
"contemporary fantasy" could easily just mean "fantasy written
recently, rather than that old fuddy-duddy Tolkien and the guys before
him."
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Evelyn C. Leeper
(Not all the following are space-based operas, but they are all SF operas.)
Benford, David & LeGuin, Ursula K. "Rigel-9"
Benford, David: "Star's End"
Blomdahl, Karl-Birger: "Aniara"
Davis, Anthony & Atherton, Deborah: "Under the Double Moon"
Dresher, Paul & Eckert, Rinded: "Power Failure"
Glass, Philip: "Einstein on the Beach"
Glass, Philip: "1000 Airplanes on the Roof"
Glass, Philip: "Hydrogen Jukebox"
Glass, Philip: "Juniper Tree"
Glass, Philip & Lessing, Doris: "The Making of the
Representative from Planet 8"
Haydn, J. : "Il Mondo della Luna"
Janacek, H.: "The Excursions of Mr Broucek"
Janacek, H.: "The Macropoulous Affair"
Ligeti, G.: "Le Grand Macabre"
Mackover, Todd: "Valis"
Menotti, Giancarlo: "A Bride from Pluto"
Menotti, Giancarlo: "Help, Help the Globolinks!"
Monk, Meredith & Chong, Ping: "The Games"
Offenbach, Jacques: "Tales of Hoffman"
Offenbach, Jacques: "Journey to the Moon"
Rice, Jeff: "The War of the Worlds"
Swan, Donald: "Perelandra"
?: "A Wrinkle in Time"
?: (Robert Anton Wilson's stuff)
--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Technology is a way of organizing the universe
so that man doesn't have to experience it. -Max Frisch
Rich Clark
wrote:
Can you name some of the books that you think are being ill-served by
this perceived mis-labeling?
R
Mike Schilling
"Michael Grosberg" <grosberg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176201359....@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> Anyway, what's wrong with the name "urban fantasy"? genre names don't
> have to be literal or accurate. Space Opera usually does not have any
> singing or music in it (although somebody ought to do a space based
> opera some day).
Jack Vance's _Space Opera_ was about an opera company on an interstellar
tour.
norrin
> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
Urban fantasy can't be set too far back in the past. It's a place
where
the non-magical people have cars and electric lights. The force of
magic
can't stand up to technology in open conflict, but magic survives
because
people tend to delude themselves. Magic can be found anywhere, but
it's more likely to be found in areas of high population density.
Ericth...@gmail.com
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
> > Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
> > fantasy"?
>
> No. The term's already been created. And it brings to mind magic
> juxtaposed with modern-day, which is the real purpose of the phrase;
> "contemporary fantasy" could easily just mean "fantasy written
> recently, rather than that old fuddy-duddy Tolkien and the guys before
> him."
And the term "contemporary fantasy" gives me the image of fantasy made
for young, sophisticated rofessionals. Kind of like the Ikea of
fantasy.
Hmm. "This fantasy costs a quarter of the price. Of course you have
to assemble the chapters when you get home..."
Eric Tolle
David Johnston
No. Too many syllables.
James Nicoll
Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
outside of cities?
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
No 33 Secretary
news:evgetm$2ki$1...@reader2.panix.com:
> In article <slrnf1ne65.8g5...@shasta.marwnad.com>,
> Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On 2007-04-10, Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net>
>>wrote:
>>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
>>> Contemporary fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at
>>> the time the story was written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in
>>> an urban or rural setting.
>>>
>>> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to
>>> "contemporary fantasy"?
>>
>>No.
>>
> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day
> settings
> outside of cities?
>
Why wouldn't there be? I could spend hours coming up with plots
that can't take place in a city, without even trying.
--
"What is the first law?"
"To Protect."
"And the second?"
"Ourselves."
Terry Austin
Andrew Plotkin
Only if we drop the "*science* fiction". So little of it is about the
science these days.
(Characterization, story, prose -- what *are* they teaching them in
those schools?)
What more accurate term shall we switch to? I like "socioallegoric
futurism".
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
If the Bush administration hasn't shipped you to Syria for interrogation, it's
for one reason: they don't feel like it. Not because you're innocent.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
That would disqualify Lillith Saintcrow's books, which are definitely
"urban fantasy", but are not contemporary.
Ted
Dan Goodman
> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
No.
Never mind what a subgenre name _should_ mean; it's what it _does_
mean, as established by usage, which matters.
> Contemporary fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time
> the story was written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or
> rural setting.
>
> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to
> "contemporary fantasy"?
Even if you got people to switch, it wouldn't work for long. The
meaning would drift. For example, it might be taken to mean "fantasy
in which elves are good at driving cars and cooking in microwave ovens."
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
future http://dangoodman.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Dan Goodman
> Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On 2007-04-10, Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
> Contemporary >> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the
> time the story was >> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban
> or rural setting.
> > >
> >> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to
> "contemporary >> fantasy"?
> >
> > No.
> >
> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
> outside of cities?
Ever hear of suburbs? Edge Cities?
James Nicoll
Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On 2007-04-10, Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> >> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
>> Contemporary >> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the
>> time the story was >> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban
>> or rural setting.
>> > >
>> >> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to
>> "contemporary >> fantasy"?
>> >
>> > No.
>> >
>> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
>> outside of cities?
>
>Ever hear of suburbs?
Yes. Those are parts of cities (I'm a bit hard pressed to think
of a fantasy novel set in the 'burbs but they must exist, right?).
> Edge Cities?
I have not heard of these.
Kat R
I suggest you take this up with the publisher or marketing department.
--
Kat Richardson
Greywalker (2006), Poltergeist (2007)
Website: http://www.katrichardson.com/
Bloggery: http://katrich.wordpress.com/
Michael Grosberg
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
> > Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
>
> No.
>
> Never mind what a subgenre name _should_ mean; it's what it _does_
> mean, as established by usage, which matters.
>
> > Contemporary fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time
> > the story was written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or
> > rural setting.
>
> > Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to
> > "contemporary fantasy"?
>
> Even if you got people to switch, it wouldn't work for long. The
> meaning would drift. For example, it might be taken to mean "fantasy
> in which elves are good at driving cars and cooking in microwave ovens."
Speaking of a drift in meaning, what is the currently popular meaning
of "urban fantasy" anyway? Are Mievile's Bas-Lag novels urban fantasy?
What about WJW's _Metropolitan_? Wikipedia says only novels set in the
real world qualify.
David Johnston
<grosberg...@gmail.com> wrote:
A reasonable approximation of the real world for about the last
century, I think.
Will in New Haven
> In article <slrnf1ne65.8g5.floweryson...@shasta.marwnad.com>,
> Paul Arthur <floweryson...@yahoo.com> wrote:>On 2007-04-10, Ken from Chicago <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
> >> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
> >> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>
> >> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
> >> fantasy"?
>
> >No.
>
> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
> outside of cities?
Sheesh. I guess I have to find somewhere else to put the fantasy set
in the 2009 Iditarod.
Will in New Haven
--
>
> --http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicollhttp://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll(For all your "The problem with
Konrad Gaertner
Maybe if more authors wrote contemporary rural fantasy, but the only
one I know of is Charlaine Harris, which isn't purely rural anyway.
(I checked her website to see what term she uses, but she doesn't
seem to use any.)
--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: kgae...@tx.rr.com
http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/
"You are nothing if not thorough in your self-congratulatory made-up
logic." "I'm rather humble that way." -- Sanderson, _Warbreaker_
Will in New Haven
wrote:
While we are at it, let's make all those so-called folk musicians,
like Peter, Paul and whatsername, etc, stop using the term "Folk
music" when almost everything they perform is music composed by
professional songwriters.
And don't get me started on calling a period in the history of art
"modern" before the end of time is even CLOSE.
Will in New Haven
--
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Speaking of a drift in meaning, what is the currently popular meaning
> of "urban fantasy" anyway? Are Mievile's Bas-Lag novels urban fantasy?
I'd say: "no, they are urban HIGH fantasy" like Brust's Vlad books and
Wells' Ile-Rien.
> What about WJW's _Metropolitan_? Wikipedia says only novels set in the
> real world qualify.
I'd say set in a our world or one that's very similar (LKH, Harris,
Briggs, and Vaughn all have the supernaturals being public knowledge).
More edge cases:
Harry Potter
Lord Darcy
Duane's Young Wizards and Cat Wizards
Thursday Next
GSV Three Minds in a Can
the wonderful person Will in New Haven <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com>
said
<snip>
>And don't get me started on calling a period in the history of art
>"modern" before the end of time is even CLOSE.
I have some bad news on that front .......
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
8,307 Km walked. 1,561Km PROWs surveyed. 28.4% complete.
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>In article <slrnf1ne65.8g5...@shasta.marwnad.com>,
>Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On 2007-04-10, Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
>>> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
>>> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>>>
>>> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>>> fantasy"?
>>
>>No.
>>
> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
>outside of cities?
Charles de Lint, "Greenmantle"
--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)
Dan Goodman
> Michael Grosberg wrote:
> >
> > Speaking of a drift in meaning, what is the currently popular
> > meaning of "urban fantasy" anyway? Are Mievile's Bas-Lag novels
> > urban fantasy?
>
> I'd say: "no, they are urban HIGH fantasy" like Brust's Vlad books and
> Wells' Ile-Rien.
>
> > What about WJW's Metropolitan? Wikipedia says only novels set in the
> > real world qualify.
>
> I'd say set in a our world or one that's very similar (LKH, Harris,
> Briggs, and Vaughn all have the supernaturals being public knowledge).
>
> More edge cases:
> Harry Potter
> Lord Darcy
Science fiction -- the science involved being psionics.
> Duane's Young Wizards and Cat Wizards
> Thursday Next
--
Dan Goodman
> In article <461bd386$0$269$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net>,
> Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
> > James Nicoll wrote:
> >
> >> Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >On 2007-04-10, Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net>
> wrote: >> >> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be
> "urban". >> Contemporary >> fantasy is set in modern times--or at
> least at the >> time the story was >> written--REGARDLESS of whether
> it's in an urban >> or rural setting.
> >> > >
> >> >> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to
> >> "contemporary >> fantasy"?
> >> >
> >> > No.
> >> >
> >> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
> >> outside of cities?
> >
> > Ever hear of suburbs?
>
> Yes. Those are parts of cities (I'm a bit hard pressed to think
> of a fantasy novel set in the 'burbs but they must exist, right?).
No, they aren't parts of cities. They are parts of _metropolitan
areas_ -- but so are some farming areas and some forests.
>
> > Edge Cities?
>
> I have not heard of these.
Tyson's Corner, Virginia, is probably the best-known in the US.
For Canadian ones, these look like good references:
Canadian Cities Are in Decline
Three decades ago, by almost any indicator, Canadian cities worked:
they were ... urban experts have identified a trend toward so-called
"edge cities": that ...
thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0012290 -
29k - Cached - Similar pages
EDGE CITIES
Differing from typical post-WWII suburbs, Edge Cities will contain tall
office ... mall construction on the 1960' and 1970's in the USA and
Canada. ...
www3.sympatico.ca/david.macleod/ECITIES.HTM - 5k - Cached - Similar
pages
lclough
> James Nicoll wrote:
>
>
>>In article <461bd386$0$269$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net>,
>>Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>>
>>>James Nicoll wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 2007-04-10, Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net>
>>
>>wrote: >> >> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be
>>"urban". >> Contemporary >> fantasy is set in modern times--or at
>>least at the >> time the story was >> written--REGARDLESS of whether
>>it's in an urban >> or rural setting.
>>
>>>>>>Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to
>>>>
>>>>"contemporary >> fantasy"?
>>>>
>>>>>No.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
>>>>outside of cities?
>>>
>>>Ever hear of suburbs?
>>
>> Yes. Those are parts of cities (I'm a bit hard pressed to think
>>of a fantasy novel set in the 'burbs but they must exist, right?).
>
>
Hah. I am the primary writer of Contemporary Suburban Fantasy.
I refer you to HOW LIKE A GOD, in which the hero drives a
Plymouth Voyager with the fake wood paneling on the sides, and
traffic on 495 through Tysons Corner is a bitch.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Recent short fiction:
FUTURE WASHINGTON (WSFA Press, October '05)
http://www.futurewashington.com
FIRST HEROES (TOR, May '04)
http://members.aol.com/wenamun/firstheroes.html
No 33 Secretary
news:461c0877$0$963$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net:
> Konrad Gaertner wrote:
>
>> Michael Grosberg wrote:
>> >
>> > Speaking of a drift in meaning, what is the currently popular
>> > meaning of "urban fantasy" anyway? Are Mievile's Bas-Lag
>> > novels urban fantasy?
>>
>> I'd say: "no, they are urban HIGH fantasy" like Brust's Vlad
>> books and Wells' Ile-Rien.
>>
>> > What about WJW's Metropolitan? Wikipedia says only novels set
>> > in the real world qualify.
>>
>> I'd say set in a our world or one that's very similar (LKH,
>> Harris, Briggs, and Vaughn all have the supernaturals being
>> public knowledge).
>>
>> More edge cases:
>> Harry Potter
>> Lord Darcy
>
> Science fiction -- the science involved being psionics.
So the mental stuff doesn't work? Cuz that's the only science
involved, after all.
mark...@earthlink.net
wrote:
> Anyway, what's wrong with the name "urban fantasy"? genre names don't
> have to be literal or accurate. Space Opera usually does not have any
> singing or music in it (although somebody ought to do a space based
> opera some day).
Except that Tucker apparantly had "horse opera" and/or "soap opera" in
mind when coining the term, and "horse opera" came after "soap opera"
and "soap opera" was coined by the American press regarding radio
dramas in the 30's:
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/S/htmlS/soapopera/soapopera.htm
I think "contemporary urban fantasy" is good enough if you want to
pinpoint urban fantasy set in contemporary times.
mark...@earthlink.net
> In article <461bd386$0$269$80463...@newsreader.iphouse.net>,> >> Paul Arthur <floweryson...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >On 2007-04-10, Ken from Chicago <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> >> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
> >> Contemporary >> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the
> >> time the story was >> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban
> >> or rural setting.
>
> >> >> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to
> >> "contemporary >> fantasy"?
>
> >> > No.
>
> >> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
> >> outside of cities?
>
> >Ever hear of suburbs?
>
> Yes. Those are parts of cities (I'm a bit hard pressed to think
> of a fantasy novel set in the 'burbs but they must exist, right?).
>
> > Edge Cities?
>
> I have not heard of these.
Dorothy J Heydt
Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>Konrad Gaertner wrote:
>
>>
>> More edge cases:
>> Harry Potter
>> Lord Darcy
>
>Science fiction -- the science involved being psionics.
Well, there are a lot of people who would insist that psionics is
not science but pure (or even impure) fantasy.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Ericth...@gmail.com
wrote:
> > For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
> >outside of cities?
>
> Charles de Lint, "Greenmantle"
Robin McKinley's "Snshine" might qualify as well, since it seems to
be set in a small(ish) town.
Eric Tolle
Andrew Wheeler
>
> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>
> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
> fantasy"?
Well, in publishing, it's generally called "urban fantasy." In fandom,
the two names are used nearly interchangeably, which can cause confusion
with that *other* stuff called contemporary fantasy. (I tried to clear
this up, probably without much luck, on my blog: http://antickmusings.blogspot.com/2007/02/more-urban-fantasy-thoughts.html)
I don't think you can reach all of the "we" who use the term "urban
fantasy" and get them to agree. It's already too muddled.
(Not to mention that, in publishing, the adjective "urban" is usually
code for "African-American," which adds a whole additional level of confusion.)
--
Andrew Wheeler: Professional Editor, Amateur Wise-Acre
--
Personal blog: http://antickmusings.blogspot.com
SFBC blog: http://thebookblogger.com/sfbc
Spare time: rare
Andrew Wheeler
>
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
> > Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
> > fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
> > written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>
> where
> the non-magical people have cars and electric lights. The force of
> magic
> can't stand up to technology in open conflict, but magic survives
> because
> people tend to delude themselves. Magic can be found anywhere, but
> it's more likely to be found in areas of high population density.
But you can also have secondary-world urban fantasy: _Scar Night_,
_Perdido Street Station_, Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser, Ankh-Morpork...
Richard Collier
news:JGA7G...@kithrup.com...
> In article <1176201359....@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> Michael Grosberg <grosberg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Apr 10, 1:07 pm, "Ken from Chicago"
>><kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net>
>>wrote:
>>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
>>> Contemporary
>>> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story
>>> was
>>> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>>>
>>> "contemporary
>>> fantasy"?
>>>
>>
>>We can't, because "contemporary Fantasy" already has a meaning:
>>fantasy that was written recently or is written now.
>>
>>Anyway, what's wrong with the name "urban fantasy"? genre names
>>don't
>>have to be literal or accurate. Space Opera usually does not have
>>any
>>singing or music in it (although somebody ought to do a space based
>>opera some day).
>
Or "Return to the Forbidden Planet"
David Goldfarb
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
>outside of cities?
Lucy Kemnitzer has a very good unpublished fantasy novel set partly
in cities, partly in the agricultural areas of California. If you
think that agricultural areas in the modern day are anything much
like farms in medieval times, think again.
--
David Goldfarb | "It's not called 'The Net of a Million Lies'
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | for nothing."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Vernor Vinge, _A Fire Upon the Deep_
John Schilling
<kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
>fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
>written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>fantasy"?
No, we can't. First, securing and implementing an actual agreement to
change established terminology, is Very Hard. It's almost never actually
worth the trouble, even in cases where the terminology in question is
far more misleading than is the case with "urban fantasy". See, for
example, "zero gravity".
Second, "contemporary fantasy" can just as easily be "fantasy that is
*written* in modern times, or to a modern style, regardless of when or
where it is set". So it isn't any less ambiguous or misleading than
"urban fantasy".
Third, how many fantasy novels are there that are set in modern times
but not in a city? There are probably a few out there, but I can't
think of any and certainly none that are what people point at when
they say, "urban fantasy".
For good reason, IMO. Rural life, and especially fictional depiction
of rural life, is rather timeless in nature. So it usually doesn't
matter whether the setting is contemporary or ancient. If all that
changes is that the Farmboy who is recruited by the Wizard to join
the Elves on their Quest, gets into a pickup truck rather than onto
a horse, that's almost certainly not worth the bother of explaining
the new rules to your audience. It's modern *urban* society that
offers fundamentally new avenues for fantasy storytelling.
But I could be wrong. Who out there has made effective use of modern
rural society as a setting for fantasy?
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Wayne Throop
: But I could be wrong. Who out there has made effective use of modern
: rural society as a setting for fantasy?
Hm. Ryk E. Spoor, Diamonds Are Forever maybe?
Well... co-author credits with some "Eric Fint" guy.
How in general would you go about it, though? Application of
clearly modern gadgets, eg, GPS, computers, cellphone, that sort of thing,
in juxtaposition with the fantasy elements, but in a rural setting,
right? Is there some other approach that might count?
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Ken from Chicago
"David Johnston" <da...@block.net> wrote in message
news:fqdn13tpioksld742...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 05:07:22 -0500, "Ken from Chicago"
> <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
>>fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
>>written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>>
>>Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>>fantasy"?
>>
>>
>
> No. Too many syllables.
"Confantasy".
-- Ken from Chicago
Howard Brazee
<kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
>fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
>written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>
>Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>fantasy"?
While most urban fantasy is contemporary - not all contemporary
fantasy is urban. So why should we drop the distinction?
Ken from Chicago
"Dan Goodman" <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote in message
news:461bd326$0$953$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net...
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>
>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
>
>
> Never mind what a subgenre name _should_ mean; it's what it _does_
> mean, as established by usage, which matters.
>
>> the story was written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or
>> rural setting.
>>
>> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to
>> "contemporary fantasy"?
>
> meaning would drift. For example, it might be taken to mean "fantasy
> in which elves are good at driving cars and cooking in microwave ovens."
What would be wrong with that?
> --
> Dan Goodman
> All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
> John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
> Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
> future http://dangoodman.livejournal.com
> Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
-- Ken from Chicago (who's all for the Keebler elves using microwaves)
Konrad Gaertner
>
> But I could be wrong. Who out there has made effective use of modern
> rural society as a setting for fantasy?
Charlaine Harris is writing two series about supernatural stuff in
small towns. Whether you count that as rural or not...
Ken from Chicago
Which makes it "CONTEMPORARY fantasy"--regardless of whether it's set in the
city, suburbs, exurbs, unincorporated areas, towns, villages, the open
countryside. They have access to modern technology--which many out in the
sticks have access to (e.g., satellite tv, phones, GPS, SUVs, ATVs,
snowmobiles, jet skis, etc.)
-- Ken from Chicago (who doesn't discriminate against rural contemporary
fantasy)
Ken from Chicago
"Kat R" <null....@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:dYadna-XNKfoQ4bb...@comcast.com...
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
>> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>>
>> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>> fantasy"?
>>
>
> I suggest you take this up with the publisher or marketing department.
>
> --
> Kat Richardson
> Greywalker (2006), Poltergeist (2007)
> Website: http://www.katrichardson.com/
> Bloggery: http://katrich.wordpress.com/
"You see, 'urban fantasy' might tick off the rurally-inclined demographic
while 'contemporary fantasy' is all-inclusive."
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Andrew Wheeler" <acwh...@optonline.com> wrote in message
news:461C1E12...@optonline.com...
PRECISELY! Yet another problem with "urban fantasy". While more contemporary
fantasy featuring African Americans would be nice, but "contemporary
fantasy" is all-inclusive and discriminates against none.
-- Ken from Chicago (who embraces all contemporary fantasy aka "confantasy")
Ken from Chicago
"John Schilling" <schi...@spock.usc.edu> wrote in message
news:davo13121p49vr0r5...@4ax.com...
Have you ever lived in the country?
> But I could be wrong. Who out there has made effective use of modern
> rural society as a setting for fantasy?
How many would as long as "urban fantasy" is bandied about confusing people
(instead of the more inclusive "contemporary fantasy")?
-- Ken from Chicago
Kat R
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
>> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
>> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>>
>> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>> fantasy"?
>
> one I know of is Charlaine Harris, which isn't purely rural anyway.
> (I checked her website to see what term she uses, but she doesn't
> seem to use any.)
>
I'm jealous: Charlaine is well-enough established to call her writing
whatever she wants--or not label it at all. The marketing department
still calls it "urban fantasy" even though most of the stories take
place in small towns and rural areas. I wanna be Charlaine when I grow up!
Kat R
As do several of Nina Kiriki Hoffman's books. THE THREAD THAT BINDS THE
BONES isn't really "urban" but the style is definitely like that the
marketing departments have dubbed "urban fantasy."
Kat R
> In article <evgetm$2ki$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
>> outside of cities?
>
> Lucy Kemnitzer has a very good unpublished fantasy novel set partly
> in cities, partly in the agricultural areas of California. If you
> think that agricultural areas in the modern day are anything much
> like farms in medieval times, think again.
>
And what about QUEEN CITY JAZZ in which the whole first third is set in
a rural area? Or is that Science fiction? I'm not sure.... Hive minds
(ha! I make ze pun!) seem to be science-y but the feel is more like
Kat R
> "David Johnston" <da...@block.net> wrote in message
> news:fqdn13tpioksld742...@4ax.com...
>> No. Too many syllables.
>
> "Confantasy".
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
>
>
wouldn't that be fantasy about cons?
Kat R
> "Kat R" <null....@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:dYadna-XNKfoQ4bb...@comcast.com...
>> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
>>> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
>>> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>>>
>>> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>>> fantasy"?
>>>
>>> -- Ken from Chicago
>> I suggest you take this up with the publisher or marketing department.
>
> "You see, 'urban fantasy' might tick off the rurally-inclined demographic
> while 'contemporary fantasy' is all-inclusive."
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
>
And I'll gladly make the switch when you get my publisher to do so--I
don't care what it's called, but they put on the labels, not me. I
called mine a "paranormal detective novel." You can see how far _that_
went.
Howard Brazee
Nicoll) wrote:
> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
>outside of cities?
Sure. Orson Scott Card has some fiction like that.
Howard Brazee
takes place in a mall.
Howard Brazee
<wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
>>outside of cities?
>
>Charles de Lint, "Greenmantle"
Even when de Lint's contemporary fantasies take place in cities, they
aren't particularly urban.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
And, again, Lillith Saintcrow's urban fantasy takes place in the future,
with flying cars etc. It's not contemporary.
Ted
Howard Brazee
Heydt) wrote:
>>> Lord Darcy
>>
>>Science fiction -- the science involved being psionics.
>
>Well, there are a lot of people who would insist that psionics is
>not science but pure (or even impure) fantasy.
I'm one of those.
But Lord Darcy's people used it pretty much as magic anyway.
James Nicoll
>>Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>On 2007-04-10, Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
>>>> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
>>>> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>>>>
>>>> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>>>> fantasy"?
>>>
>>>
>> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
>>outside of cities?
>
>Charles de Lint, "Greenmantle"
>
a bad name.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
James Nicoll
David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>In article <evgetm$2ki$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
>>outside of cities?
>
>Lucy Kemnitzer has a very good unpublished fantasy novel set partly
>in cities, partly in the agricultural areas of California. If you
>think that agricultural areas in the modern day are anything much
>like farms in medieval times, think again.
I grew up in farming country. Granted, it was before the
introduction of the wrong kind of hay bales but I am vaguely aware
of the march of progress in that field, like tractors that don't
give the driver chronic lower back problems.
James Gassaway
> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
> Contemporary fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time
> the story was written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or
> rural setting.
> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
> fantasy"?
>
No.
--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own."
"Now, quack, damn you!"
James Gassaway
> norrin wrote:
>>
>> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
>>> Contemporary fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the
>>> time the story was written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban
>>> or rural setting.
>>
>> where
>> the non-magical people have cars and electric lights. The force of
>> magic
>> can't stand up to technology in open conflict, but magic survives
>> because
>> people tend to delude themselves. Magic can be found anywhere, but
>> it's more likely to be found in areas of high population density.
>
> But you can also have secondary-world urban fantasy: _Scar Night_,
> _Perdido Street Station_, Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser, Ankh-Morpork...
>
You spend too much time thinking about this kind of stuff.
> --
> Andrew Wheeler: Professional Editor, Amateur Wise-Acre
Oh, right. Its your job to. :P
James Gassaway
> On Apr 10, 9:10 pm, "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
>>
>>
>> Never mind what a subgenre name _should_ mean; it's what it _does_
>> mean, as established by usage, which matters.
>>
>>> the story was written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or
>>> rural setting.
>>
>>> "contemporary fantasy"?
>>
>> meaning would drift. For example, it might be taken to mean "fantasy
>> in which elves are good at driving cars and cooking in microwave
>> ovens."
>
> Speaking of a drift in meaning, what is the currently popular meaning
> of "urban fantasy" anyway? Are Mievile's Bas-Lag novels urban fantasy?
> What about WJW's _Metropolitan_? Wikipedia says only novels set in the
> real world qualify.
*wonders if he should point out the paradox inherent in that definition*
James Gassaway
> "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote in message
> news:461bd326$0$953$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net...
>> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>>
>>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
>>
>> No.
>>
>> Never mind what a subgenre name _should_ mean; it's what it _does_
>> mean, as established by usage, which matters.
>>
>>> Contemporary fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time
>>> the story was written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or
>>> rural setting.
>>>
>>> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to
>>> "contemporary fantasy"?
>>
>> Even if you got people to switch, it wouldn't work for long. The
>> meaning would drift. For example, it might be taken to mean "fantasy
>> in which elves are good at driving cars and cooking in microwave
>> ovens."
>
> What would be wrong with that?
>
_Magic_ microwaves, thankyouverymuch.
David Johnston
wrote:
Well they called it magic. But they used it pretty much like science.
Dorothy J Heydt
Yeah, but it was (practically) all written for Campbell, who was
then riding the magic = psionics = science hobbyhorse very hard.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Wayne Throop
: As do several of Nina Kiriki Hoffman's books. THE THREAD THAT BINDS THE
: marketing departments have dubbed "urban fantasy."
Drat, I remember liking that quite a bit, but now I can't recall
any of the details from my vaporous memory. I think I'll have to locate
my copy and read it again. Hm. Now, if only I can pin down the vapor
tracks pointing to where I *left* it, I'll be in business.
Above the planet on a wing and a prayer,
My grubby halo, a vapour trail in the empty air,
Across the clouds I see my shadow fly
Out of the corner of my watering eye
--- Learning to Fly, Pink Floyd
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Dan Goodman
> "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote in
> news:461c0877$0$963$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net:
>
> > Konrad Gaertner wrote:
> >
> >> Michael Grosberg wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Speaking of a drift in meaning, what is the currently popular
> >> > meaning of "urban fantasy" anyway? Are Mievile's Bas-Lag
> >> > novels urban fantasy?
> >>
> >> I'd say: "no, they are urban HIGH fantasy" like Brust's Vlad
> >> books and Wells' Ile-Rien.
> >>
> >> > What about WJW's Metropolitan? Wikipedia says only novels set
> >> > in the real world qualify.
> >>
> >> I'd say set in a our world or one that's very similar (LKH,
> >> Harris, Briggs, and Vaughn all have the supernaturals being
> >> public knowledge).
> >>
> >> More edge cases:
> >> Harry Potter
> >> Lord Darcy
> >
> > Science fiction -- the science involved being psionics.
>
> So the mental stuff doesn't work? Cuz that's the only science
> involved, after all.
Of _course_ it works! John Campbell said so! And he was not only
editor of the most scientific science fiction magazine, but he had a
physics degree from Duke University.
Dan Goodman
> Rural life, and especially fictional depiction
> of rural life, is rather timeless in nature. So it usually doesn't
> matter whether the setting is contemporary or ancient.
Not really. For example, fewer than five percent of rural Americans
live on farms now. The percentage used to be rather higher.
Also, farming equipment has changed considerably during the last couple
of centuries. During the last fifty years, tractors probably changed
more than automobiles did.
A high percentage of European farmers raise crops which were literally
unknown in Eurasia before about 1500.
Dan Goodman
>
> "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote in message
> news:461bd326$0$953$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net...
> > Ken from Chicago wrote:
> >
> > > Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
> >
> > No.
> >
> > Never mind what a subgenre name should mean; it's what it does
> > mean, as established by usage, which matters.
> >
> > > Contemporary fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the
> > > time the story was written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an
> > > urban or rural setting.
> > >
> > > Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to
> > > "contemporary fantasy"?
> >
> > Even if you got people to switch, it wouldn't work for long. The
> > meaning would drift. For example, it might be taken to mean
> > "fantasy in which elves are good at driving cars and cooking in
> > microwave ovens."
>
> What would be wrong with that?
>
> -- Ken from Chicago (who's all for the Keebler elves using microwaves)
It would rule out, for example, Emma Bull's _War for the Oaks_.
Terry Austin
$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net:
> No 33 Secretary wrote:
>
>> "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote in
>> news:461c0877$0$963$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net:
>>
>> > Konrad Gaertner wrote:
>> >
>> >> Michael Grosberg wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Speaking of a drift in meaning, what is the currently popular
>> >> > meaning of "urban fantasy" anyway? Are Mievile's Bas-Lag
>> >> > novels urban fantasy?
>> >>
>> >> I'd say: "no, they are urban HIGH fantasy" like Brust's Vlad
>> >> books and Wells' Ile-Rien.
>> >>
>> >> > What about WJW's Metropolitan? Wikipedia says only novels set
>> >> > in the real world qualify.
>> >>
>> >> I'd say set in a our world or one that's very similar (LKH,
>> >> Harris, Briggs, and Vaughn all have the supernaturals being
>> >> public knowledge).
>> >>
>> >> More edge cases:
>> >> Harry Potter
>> >> Lord Darcy
>> >
>> > Science fiction -- the science involved being psionics.
>>
>> So the mental stuff doesn't work? Cuz that's the only science
>> involved, after all.
>
> Of _course_ it works!
Heh.
> John Campbell said so! And he was not only
> editor of the most scientific science fiction magazine, but he had a
> physics degree from Duke University.
>
A college degree can easily be an indication of a well educted idiot.
--
Terry Austin
Your worst inhibitions tend to psych you out in the end.
norrin
> norrin wrote:
>
> > > Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
> > > fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
> > > written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>
> > where
> > the non-magical people have cars and electric lights. The force of
> > magic
> > can't stand up to technology in open conflict, but magic survives
> > because
> > people tend to delude themselves. Magic can be found anywhere, but
> > it's more likely to be found in areas of high population density.
>
> But you can also have secondary-world urban fantasy: _Scar Night_,
> _Perdido Street Station_, Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser, Ankh-Morpork...
>
Lankhmar is urban fantasy? Leiber cities, Mieville cities, Ankh-
Morpork,
and cities in urban fantasy are four different things. Lankhmar is a
city of guilds and competitive temples, it's pre-industrial. It's like
a
medieval city without cathedrals. It's sword and sorcery.
_Perdido Street_ is steampunk with magic. It's a different type of
urban setting, with trains instead of cars.
Ankh-Morpork started out as a parody of Lankhmar, but now it's
more like 19th-century London. Sometimes the people behave
like the industrial era, sometimes like contemporary people,
except that no one came up with the equivalent of the French
Revolution or the Russian Revolution.
norrin
> Third, how many fantasy novels are there that are set in modern times
> but not in a city? There are probably a few out there, but I can't
> think of any and certainly none that are what people point at when
> they say, "urban fantasy".
>
> For good reason, IMO. Rural life, and especially fictional depiction
> of rural life, is rather timeless in nature. So it usually doesn't
> matter whether the setting is contemporary or ancient. If all that
> changes is that the Farmboy who is recruited by the Wizard to join
> the Elves on their Quest, gets into a pickup truck rather than onto
> a horse, that's almost certainly not worth the bother of explaining
> the new rules to your audience. It's modern *urban* society that
> offers fundamentally new avenues for fantasy storytelling.
>
In the future, the farmboy gets into a land speeder. That's the
stereotype, but it's not very similar to the way people really live.
norrin
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 02:43:26 GMT, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Heydt) wrote:
>
> >>>> Lord Darcy
>
> >>>Science fiction -- the science involved being psionics.
>
> >>Well, there are a lot of people who would insist that psionics is
> >>not science but pure (or even impure) fantasy.
>
> >I'm one of those.
>
> >But Lord Darcy's people used it pretty much as magic anyway.
>
> Well they called it magic. But they used it pretty much like science.
Psionics is not identical to magic, but the psi on Lord Darcy's world
doesn't work like technology, because it's not value-neutral. It is
neutral with respect to birth and noble titles, unlike magic in
most stories.
Derek Lyons
>But I could be wrong. Who out there has made effective use of modern
>rural society as a setting for fantasy?
For certain values of modern (the novels were written in the 80's), in
Winmaster's Bane and it's sequels. (Sometimes called the David
Sullivan Series.)
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Kurt Busiek
<wmgf...@newsguy.com> said:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:44:38 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
> wrote:
>
>> In article <slrnf1ne65.8g5...@shasta.marwnad.com>,
>> Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 2007-04-10, Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
>>>> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
>>>> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>>>>
>>>> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>>>> fantasy"?
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
>> outside of cities?
>
> Charles de Lint, "Greenmantle"
That was the first counterexample that sprung to my mind as well.
kdb
Kurt Busiek
> In article <461bd386$0$269$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net>,
> Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>> James Nicoll wrote:
>>
>>> Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2007-04-10, Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to
>>> "contemporary >> fantasy"?
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>>>
>>> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
>>> outside of cities?
>>
>> Ever hear of suburbs?
>
> Yes. Those are parts of cities (I'm a bit hard pressed to think
> of a fantasy novel set in the 'burbs but they must exist, right?).
Most, if not all, of Edward Eager's output.
And suburbs aren't parts of cities, they're settled areas surrounding
cities, with easy city access.
But I'm fine with the name "urban fantasy." My position is, anyone who
wants to change common usage based on an anal-retentive insistence that
terms for things can't encompass anything not literally described by
the term should go try to get people to stop using the word "novel" for
lengthy works of prose fiction that aren't actually new. If they
manage that, they can come back and talk about other choices, but in
the meantime, they can leave me alone.
kdb
Kurt Busiek
<bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> said:
> On Apr 10, 12:44 pm, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>> In article <slrnf1ne65.8g5.floweryson...@shasta.marwnad.com>,
>> Paul Arthur <floweryson...@yahoo.com> wrote:>On 2007-04-10, Ken from
>> Chicago <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
>>>> fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
>>>> written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>>
>>>> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>>>> fantasy"?
>>
>>> No.
>>
>> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
>> outside of cities?
>
> Sheesh. I guess I have to find somewhere else to put the fantasy set
> in the 2009 Iditarod.
For that matter, modern-day farms are different from their long-ago
forebears, suburbs have been fruitful for Bradbury, Eager and others, a
fantasy set on a cruise ship could have potential, as could fantasies
set featuring modern-day people at an archeological dig, or studying
some tribe that's avoided "civilized" contact until now, and yaddita
yaddita yaddita.
kdb
Gene Ward Smith
> I'm jealous: Charlaine is well-enough established to call her writing
> whatever she wants--or not label it at all. The marketing department
> still calls it "urban fantasy" even though most of the stories take
> place in small towns and rural areas. I wanna be Charlaine when I grow up!
It takes place in small towns, including outskirts of small towns,
or in big cities. I don't see much if anything in it I would call
"rural".
David DeLaney
>> century, I think.
>
>Which makes it "CONTEMPORARY fantasy"--regardless of whether it's set in the
>city, suburbs, exurbs, unincorporated areas, towns, villages, the open
>countryside. They have access to modern technology--which many out in the
>sticks have access to (e.g., satellite tv, phones, GPS, SUVs, ATVs,
>snowmobiles, jet skis, etc.)
But "comtemporary fantasy" _already has another meaning_ in widespread use,
is what people are trying repeatedly to tell you.
To make your change, you'd have to somehow make your meme more powerful than
their existing one AND more powerful than the current one where what you
want to call "c.f." ALSO already is referred to widely by a different label,
and there just aren't any of the usual pressures behind your attempt: "urban
fantasy" isn't a reference to anything obscene, race-related (even though it
apparently ties into a codeword I never knew about that publishers have for
'black'?), gender-related, political, etc.; people aren't getting CONFUSED
about what 'urban fantasy' actually is versus what its label, literally
interpreted is; there are no good strong reasons to call it by the other
term you propose that don't also exist for the existing one; and the other
term you propose is already occupied in the same industry.
So: you can certainly try to campaign for it, but I'm afraid all you'll meet
is people who don't understand why you're trying to call a spade a banana...
Dave 'sometimes a banana is just a kumquat' DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dan Tilque
>
> A high percentage of European farmers raise crops which were
> literally unknown in Eurasia before about 1500.
Which didn't prevent Tolkien from having the hobbits growing both
potatoes and tobacco (at least I assume pipeweed was tobacco;
don't know what else it could have been).
--
Dan Tilque
David Johnston
wrote:
Since a big chunk of Middle Earth hadn't yet been broken off to form
the coastline of Europe as we now know it, I don't think that's a
problem. Of course the thought has crossed my mind that we are
descended from the version of Middle Earth where Sauron won, and
that's why in the end divine intervention rearranged the terrain
again.
Dorothy J Heydt
Definitely tobacco or something closely related. He says it's a
variety of _Nicotiana,_ which the Numenoreans called "sweet
galenas" and prized for the fragrance of its flowers. IIRC he
even calls it tobacco once or twice in _The Hobbit._
Which doesn't prevent a number of young beadbrains in _The Lord
of the Rings Online_ from pretending it is pot. Even though it
doesn't get you high and does let you blow smoke rings.
David Given
[...]
> wouldn't that be fantasy about cons?
A small genre, but one that exists --- Diana Wynne Jones' _Deep Secret_ is
mostly set at a con (mostly at the Adelphi in Liverpool, according to David
Langford).
http://www.leemac.freeserve.co.uk/cl2deep.htm
--
┌── ｄｇ＠ｃｏｗｌａｒｋ．ｃｏｍ ─── http://www.cowlark.com ───────────────────
│ "Thou who might be our Father, who perhaps may be in Heaven, hallowed be
│ Thy Name, if Name Thou hast and any desire to see it hallowed..." ---
│ _Creatures of Light and Darkness_
David Given
[...]
> _Magic_ microwaves, thankyouverymuch.
According to the Law of Similarity, I should be able to bake a potato by
placing it on my head, and then rotating slowly in place while going 'ommm'.
Has anyone brought up Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt's _The Incompleat
Enchanter_ yet?
Ken from Chicago
"Kat R" <null....@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:ROadnciWw5i12oHb...@comcast.com...
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>> "David Johnston" <da...@block.net> wrote in message
>> news:fqdn13tpioksld742...@4ax.com...
>
>>> No. Too many syllables.
>>
>> "Confantasy".
>>
>> -- Ken from Chicago
>
> wouldn't that be fantasy about cons?
As much as "urban fantasy" is about fantasy about only cities--when what
people *mean* is fantasy set in contemporary settings (tho apparently some
have difficulty imagining modern life in the country being significantly
different from the ancient past vs modern city life being different from
ancient city life).
> --
> Kat Richardson
> Greywalker (2006), Poltergeist (2007)
> Website: http://www.katrichardson.com/
> Bloggery: http://katrich.wordpress.com/
When in fact the truth is not so black and white but shades of gray. But
some people have trouble walking in that realm.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Kurt Busiek" <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote in message
news:2007041023482675249-kurt@busiekcomics...
So "comic books" are not necessarily comic nor books?
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:evhibm$apa$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <evhbgs$1al$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
> David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>>In article <evgetm$2ki$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> For one thing, is there any point to writing modern day settings
>>>outside of cities?
>>
>>in cities, partly in the agricultural areas of California. If you
>>think that agricultural areas in the modern day are anything much
>>like farms in medieval times, think again.
>
> I grew up in farming country. Granted, it was before the
> introduction of the wrong kind of hay bales but I am vaguely aware
> of the march of progress in that field, like tractors that don't
> give the driver chronic lower back problems.
> --
> http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
> http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
> defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Exactly. Living in the country doesn't automatically mean you're living in a
century behind.
-- Ken from Chicago
P.S. "She might have took my car keys / But she forgot about my ol' John
Deere."--Vince Gil, 'One More Last Chance'.
Ken from Chicago
"David DeLaney" <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrnf1p3g...@gatekeeper.vic.com...
There's a difference from contemporary "Fantasy" works and "Contemporary
Fantasy" works. And people are being confused. "Urban fantasy" reinforces
the stereotype that *regular* fantasy is not set in cities. It also
reinforces the stereotype that cf should be set in cities, to the point
someone posted as much in this thread, and in looking at the field of cf
works one is hard-pressed to think of examples of rural cf. And that's the
problem. Writers should be free to write rural cf.
> So: you can certainly try to campaign for it, but I'm afraid all you'll
> meet
> is people who don't understand why you're trying to call a spade a
> banana...
Here's a banana split.
> Dave 'sometimes a banana is just a kumquat' DeLaney
> --
-- Ken from Chicago
P.S. "Orange you glad I didn't say 'banana'."--[Ancient punchline]
Ken from Chicago
"James Gassaway" <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:461c5246$0$14069$742e...@news.sonic.net...
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>> "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote in message
>> news:461bd326$0$953$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net...
>>>
>>>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
>>>
>>>
>>> Never mind what a subgenre name _should_ mean; it's what it _does_
>>> mean, as established by usage, which matters.
>>>
>>>> the story was written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or
>>>> rural setting.
>>>>
>>>> "contemporary fantasy"?
>>>
>>> meaning would drift. For example, it might be taken to mean "fantasy
>>> in which elves are good at driving cars and cooking in microwave
>>> ovens."
>>
>> What would be wrong with that?
>>
>> -- Ken from Chicago (who's all for the Keebler elves using microwaves)
>
>
> --
> "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
> "Now, quack, damn you!"
So we could stuff INSTANTLY instead of having to wait several seconds? Cool!
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"David Given" <d...@cowlark.com> wrote in message
news:V42Th.314$Sc4...@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
Might wanna strip out the HTML and post plain text. Usenet is stripping out
your entire message.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
>>> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>>>> Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban".
>>>> the story was written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural
>>>> setting.
>>>>
>>>> Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>>>> fantasy"?
>>>>
>>> I suggest you take this up with the publisher or marketing department.
>
>>
>> "You see, 'urban fantasy' might tick off the rurally-inclined demographic
>> while 'contemporary fantasy' is all-inclusive."
>>
>> -- Ken from Chicago
>
> And I'll gladly make the switch when you get my publisher to do so--I
> don't care what it's called, but they put on the labels, not me. I called
> mine a "paranormal detective novel." You can see how far _that_ went.
>
>
> --
> Kat Richardson
> Greywalker (2006), Poltergeist (2007)
> Website: http://www.katrichardson.com/
> Bloggery: http://katrich.wordpress.com/
It works for Nora Roberts nee JD Robb who's scifi cop series is set in the
future, but is put in the Mystery / Thriller category in bookstores. Tho
Nora Roberts' contemporary fantasy "Three Sisters" trilogy (set mostly on a
small village on an island off Massachusetts or Maine) is usually placed in
the Romance section of Borders bookstore--tho it was in the science fiction
/ fantasy section at the library.
-- Ken from Chicago (weak on geography)
Ken from Chicago
"Howard Brazee" <how...@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:6deo131p2aql2eoat...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 05:07:22 -0500, "Ken from Chicago"
> <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
>>fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
>>written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>>
>>Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>>fantasy"?
>
> fantasy is urban. So why should we drop the distinction?
It shouldn't when refering to urban fantasy, but some CF is set in the
country, small towns, villages, suburbs and not cities, but still get tagged
with the UF label. Moreover UF is often used to label all CF and that molds
writers into thinking of CF *must* be set in cities. I'm trying to free
writers of those mental shackles.
-- Ken from Chicago (literature liberator)
Ken from Chicago
"Ted Nolan <tednolan>" <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote in message
news:sTXSh.709$Pq5...@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> In article <6deo131p2aql2eoat...@4ax.com>,
> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 05:07:22 -0500, "Ken from Chicago"
>><kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Urban fantasy could be set in the past and still be "urban". Contemporary
>>>fantasy is set in modern times--or at least at the time the story was
>>>written--REGARDLESS of whether it's in an urban or rural setting.
>>>
>>>Can we just drop the "*urban* fantasy" BIAS and agree to "contemporary
>>>fantasy"?
>>
>>While most urban fantasy is contemporary - not all contemporary
>>fantasy is urban. So why should we drop the distinction?
>
> with flying cars etc. It's not contemporary.
>
> Ted
Now that's another debate. Is fiction set in the future ALWAYS science
fiction or can it be fantasy? I would argue the latter while some would
argue the former.
-- Ken from Chicago
Christopher Adams
>
> There's a difference from contemporary "Fantasy" works and "Contemporary
> Fantasy" works.
I, and others, have used "contemporary fantasy" as a shorthand for the sort of
attitudes, themes, and tones you see in recently-published fantasy - the New
Weird, reaction against Tolkien, all that jazz.
Not contemporary "fantasy", which is just recently-published fantasy, but
"contemporary fantasy", featuring current attitudes and whatnot.
--
Christopher Adams - St Ives, New South Wales
-------
What can change the nature of a man?
-------
Sydney-based gamers - Get in touch with
SUTEKH at the University of Sydney!
http://forum.sutekh.info/
Peter Bruells
> Exactly. Living in the country doesn't automatically mean you're living in a
> century behind.
There was a scene about that in Lois and Clark.
Lois was visting at the Kent's farm and said something about faxes,
which prompted Martha to make a offhand remark about faxed which in
turn prompted Lois to start explaining what a fax machine does.
Great look on Lois's face when Martha opens a cabinet and tell's her
that she forgot to put in new paper.
John F. Eldredge
While I haven't seen any pot smokers blow smoke rings, I would be
surprised if it were impossible to do so while smoking pot. The only
issue would be whether the pot smoker retained the coordination
required to do so.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria