[DbS] LOTR:FOTR Book I, Ch 3 - 6
Thomas Yan
more straightforward than the first two chapters -- at least from my
vantage point.
I hadn't noticed before that there were repeated motifs (term?), e.g.
"people may appear larger than life size" and "forests: ooh, scary".
Ch3: pp74 - 94
p74: Frodo wants to leave on his 50th birthday.
p76: Gandalf stayed for 2+ months. Leaves in June: "I have heard
something that has made me anxious" {what? from whom -- Strider?}
Frodo leaves around September 20.
p80: "I wonder if I shall ever look down into that valley again"
{overheard by Sam or Pippin or both?}
pp84-85: The black rider sniffing/smelling is nicely creepy.
{However, why does he sniff?}
p85: Sam says he knows where "the" black rider comes from,
"unless there's more than one" {good call, Sam!}
p89: Elves laugh "hobbits are so dull"
p94: Gildor: "The Elves have their own labours and their own
sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of
hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth. Our paths
cross theirs seldom, by chance or purpose. In this
meeting there may be more than chance, {!} but the purpose
is not clear to me"
Ch4: pp95 - 107
pp95-96: Frodo thinks, "I could not # take them into exile",
"mine alone"
p97: Frodo makes a bad choice regarding which path take,
which he'll repeat again at the Old Forest and maybe again
at Moria; or, put another way, he keeps leading people into
danger
p104: Maggot guesses close to the mark.
p140: Frodo has been scared of Maggot and his dogs for 30+ years.
p106: Another character goes through a perceptual size change:
Gandalf with Bilbo in the past (pp42-43), Merry this time,
Galadriel and Frodo & Sam in the future (p381).
Ch5: pp108 - 119
p108: "bollard" =def "a post of metal or wood on a wharf around
which to fasten mooring lines" (from m-w.com)
p114: Merry says to Frodo (see p52), "I had been watching you
rather closely ever since [Bilbo] left"
p113: Pippin quotes Frodo verbatim from p80:
"I wonder if I shall ever look down into that valley again"
p118: I had forgotten that Fatty Bolger was part of the
conspiracy and was there for the planning session when
Frodo decides to go through the Old Forest (see p97)
p118: Yet another feared forest: Old Forest by Hobbits, Mirkwood
by Elves (?), Lothlorien by Boromir
p118-119: {What's up with Frodo's dream?} "vague dream",
"looking out of a high window over a sea of tangled trees",
"among the roots # creatures crawling and snuffling",
"sound of the Sea far-off"; "dark heath", "tall white tower",
"suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was # thunder"
Ch6: pp120 - 133
p120: "spinney" =def "a small wood with undergrowth" (from m-w.com)
p121: "queer things living deep in the Forest" {namely?}
p122: Pippin calls attention to them with an unwelcome noise 'again'
(also in Moria, p327)
p123: Frodo exhibits poor 'shot selection' in his choice of songs
("all woods must fail")
pp127-128: powerful song of weariness woven about them
{like in the _The Riddlemaster of Hed_}
p130: Frodo imitates a yappy dog to attract Tom Bombadil's attention
"*help!* *help!* *help!*" {given everything else that is
more than chance, Bombadil's presence can't be sheer luck}
p130: Tom's got a "blue feather" in his cap^H^H^Hhat and a "blue coat"
{do colors have specific meanings in LOTR?}
p130: {RASFW makes me unavoidably think of Ned Flanders, but
this time Tom's silliness made me also think of the ruler
of the universe in Douglas Adams's _The Restaurant at the
End of the Universe_}
--
Thomas Yan (ty...@twcny.rr.com) Note: I don't check e-mail often.
Be pro-active. Fight sucky software and learned helplessness.
Apologies for any lack of capitalization; typing hurts my hands.
Progress on next DbS installment: pp1-38 of pp1-181 of _Taltos_
David Eppstein
Thomas Yan <ty...@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
> p97: Frodo makes a bad choice regarding which path take,
> which he'll repeat again at the Old Forest and maybe again
> at Moria; or, put another way, he keeps leading people into
> danger
This is interesting -- I was struck in the movie by how much the movie
Frodo is always right. Moria doesn't count, it's the best of a bad choice,
and the other ones you mention were cut.
--
David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science
epps...@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
Taki Kogoma
to rec.arts.sf.written decree...
[...]
>p76: Gandalf stayed for 2+ months. Leaves in June: "I have heard
> something that has made me anxious" {what? from whom -- Strider?}
> Frodo leaves around September 20.
More likely from a passing dwarf in one of the local inns. THere's
also "I have stayed longer than I ought" or words to that effect.
I think Gandalf was getting a bit restless and may have heard
second-hand about the travellers moving up the greenway through Bree.
>p80: "I wonder if I shall ever look down into that valley again"
> {overheard by Sam or Pippin or both?}
Probably Sam, reported to the rest of the conspiracy.
>pp84-85: The black rider sniffing/smelling is nicely creepy.
> {However, why does he sniff?}
This is sort-of addressed a few chapters down the line when they reach
Weathertop.
[...]
>p97: Frodo makes a bad choice regarding which path take,
> which he'll repeat again at the Old Forest and maybe again
> at Moria; or, put another way, he keeps leading people into
> danger
Movie contamination? Bk II, Ch 4 ("A Journey in the Dark") has the
decision to go through Moria being all Gnadalf's encouraged by an
encounter with Wargs. Not Frodo's call at all.
[...]
>p118: Yet another feared forest: Old Forest by Hobbits, Mirkwood
> by Elves (?), Lothlorien by Boromir
Only the southern half or so of Mirkwood. Don't forget Thranduil
and Legolas.
OTOH, no less than Celeborn warns the company about Fangorn.
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk | "I'll get a life when someone
(Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | demonstrates that it would be
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Veteran of the '91 sf-lovers re-org. | -- Gym Quirk
Elaine Thompson
wrote:
>Looks like these chapters, and I would guess the next few as well, are
>more straightforward than the first two chapters -- at least from my
>vantage point.
>
>I hadn't noticed before that there were repeated motifs (term?), e.g.
>"people may appear larger than life size" and "forests: ooh, scary".
>
>Ch3: pp74 - 94
>
>p74: Frodo wants to leave on his 50th birthday.
>
>p76: Gandalf stayed for 2+ months. Leaves in June: "I have heard
> something that has made me anxious" {what? from whom -- Strider?}
He says in the Council chapter that 'a cloud of anxiety was on his
mind" in June in the Shire. I suspect his wizardly abilities were
picking up things, not that he'd gotten literal messages.
snip
>
>pp84-85: The black rider sniffing/smelling is nicely creepy.
> {However, why does he sniff?}
Can't see well in light, but can smell. Aragorn explains it, probably
around Weathertop.
snip
>p118-119: {What's up with Frodo's dream?} "vague dream",
> "looking out of a high window over a sea of tangled trees",
> "among the roots # creatures crawling and snuffling",
> "sound of the Sea far-off"; "dark heath", "tall white tower",
> "suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was # thunder"
Some of his seem prophetic; this one is rather obscure. What I've
made of it is a bit of Gollum and Nazgul with elves and longing for
refuge from his burden symbolized by the Sea and light.
>
>p121: "queer things living deep in the Forest" {namely?}
Old Willow, Tom.
>
>p130: Frodo imitates a yappy dog to attract Tom Bombadil's attention
> "*help!* *help!* *help!*" {given everything else that is
> more than chance, Bombadil's presence can't be sheer luck}
He says he'd heard (from Gildor, I think) and was on the lookout for
Frodo & Co. Aragorn says in Bree that news had gone out from Gildor
to all sorts of people on the good side that Gandalf was missing and
Frodo abroad and in need of help.
>
>p130: Tom's got a "blue feather" in his cap^H^H^Hhat and a "blue coat"
> {do colors have specific meanings in LOTR?}
Don't think so. Even the good guys wear black after all. (Gondorian
livery)
Somebody's commentary on Tolkien - maybe DWJ which I looked at
recently - places Tom as standing between earth and sky. Blue can be
for sky and water. shrug.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Thomas Yan
wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:33:31 -0500, did Thomas Yan <ty...@twcny.rr.com>,
> to rec.arts.sf.written decree...
> [...]
> >p76: Gandalf stayed for 2+ months. Leaves in June: "I have heard
> > something that has made me anxious" {what? from whom -- Strider?}
> > Frodo leaves around September 20.
>
> More likely from a passing dwarf in one of the local inns. THere's
> also "I have stayed longer than I ought" or words to that effect.
Why dwarves instead of Elves?
> I think Gandalf was getting a bit restless and may have heard
> second-hand about the travellers moving up the greenway through Bree.
You mean the Black Riders?
-snip-
> >pp84-85: The black rider sniffing/smelling is nicely creepy.
> > {However, why does he sniff?}
>
> This is sort-of addressed a few chapters down the line when they reach
> Weathertop.
>
> [...]
> >p97: Frodo makes a bad choice regarding which path take,
> > which he'll repeat again at the Old Forest and maybe again
> > at Moria; or, put another way, he keeps leading people into
> > danger
>
> Movie contamination?
Argh! And I had just been patting myself on the back that I didn't
attribute the pebble in the Watcher's pool to Pippin (movie) instead
of Boromir (book). Grr. However, I think this is the first case of
movie contamination in these threads.
I should have double checked that. Come to think of it, I perhaps
should also have checked Gandalf's list of Frodo's mistakes when he
wakes up at Rivendell to see if I had forgotten any.
> Bk II, Ch 4 ("A Journey in the Dark") has the
> decision to go through Moria being all Gnadalf's encouraged by an
> encounter with Wargs. Not Frodo's call at all.
Oh yeah. Aragorn says sadly afterwards that (paraphrased) he had
warned Gandalf that going through Moria could bring him brief.
Although I also remember Aragorn lamenting that all *his* choices went
ill.
> [...]
> >p118: Yet another feared forest: Old Forest by Hobbits, Mirkwood
> > by Elves (?), Lothlorien by Boromir
>
> Only the southern half or so of Mirkwood. Don't forget Thranduil
> and Legolas.
True, but the fact that it got renamed Mirkwood was because of the
encroaching evil, right?
> OTOH, no less than Celeborn warns the company about Fangorn.
Oh yeah! Shameful confession: I generally don't pay attention to
geography, e.g. maps, and thus have a poor idea of how places are
arranged with respect to each other. In particular, I couldn't tell
you the relative positions of the forests.
Taki Kogoma
to rec.arts.sf.written decree...
>In article <a3alv5$4...@boofura.swcp.com>, qu...@swcp.com (Taki Kogoma)
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:33:31 -0500, did Thomas Yan <ty...@twcny.rr.com>,
>> to rec.arts.sf.written decree...
>> [...]
>> >p76: Gandalf stayed for 2+ months. Leaves in June: "I have heard
>> > something that has made me anxious" {what? from whom -- Strider?}
>> > Frodo leaves around September 20.
>>
>> More likely from a passing dwarf in one of the local inns. THere's
>> also "I have stayed longer than I ought" or words to that effect.
>
>Why dwarves instead of Elves?
My reading is that there'd always been a steady traffic of dwarves
through the Shire along the Great East Road (which they built ages
before Hobbits settled there).
Elves seem to prefer travelling less openly (as in Gildor and company).
>> I think Gandalf was getting a bit restless and may have heard
>> second-hand about the travellers moving up the greenway through Bree.
>
>You mean the Black Riders?
Men from down south. It'll come up when the party reaches Bree.
Gandalf won't hear about the Nazgul until he meets up with Radagast
near midsummer. I'd have to check Appendix B and _Unfinished Tales_ to
see exactly when the Nine cross Anduin.
>> >p97: Frodo makes a bad choice regarding which path take,
>> > which he'll repeat again at the Old Forest and maybe again
>> > at Moria; or, put another way, he keeps leading people into
>> > danger
[...]
>> Bk II, Ch 4 ("A Journey in the Dark") has the
>> decision to go through Moria being all Gnadalf's encouraged by an
>> encounter with Wargs. Not Frodo's call at all.
>
>Oh yeah. Aragorn says sadly afterwards that (paraphrased) he had
>warned Gandalf that going through Moria could bring him brief.
"If you pass the gates of Moria, beware!" is Aragorn's line, IIRC.
Said when debating what to do after being frustrated at the Redhorn
Gate and again repeated when the reduced party finally escapes Moria.
>Although I also remember Aragorn lamenting that all *his* choices went
>ill.
Start of Bk. III regarding the events at Parth Galen and the Breaking
of the Fellowship.
>> >p118: Yet another feared forest: Old Forest by Hobbits, Mirkwood
>> > by Elves (?), Lothlorien by Boromir
>>
>> Only the southern half or so of Mirkwood. Don't forget Thranduil
>> and Legolas.
>
>True, but the fact that it got renamed Mirkwood was because of the
>encroaching evil, right?
Yep. Before Sauron set up in Dol Guldur, it was "Greenwood the
Great".
>> OTOH, no less than Celeborn warns the company about Fangorn.
>
>Oh yeah! Shameful confession: I generally don't pay attention to
>geography, e.g. maps, and thus have a poor idea of how places are
>arranged with respect to each other. In particular, I couldn't tell
>you the relative positions of the forests.
Part of my Movie Prep last autumn was going over Fonstead's _Atlas of
Middle Earth_. ;-)
Ross TenEyck
>On 30 Jan 2002 22:50:29 -0700, qu...@swcp.com (Taki Kogoma) wrote:
>>OTOH, no less than Celeborn warns the company about Fangorn.
>Another good call there, Celly ...
>(why do smart, gorgeous women always fall for dorks?)
He is kind of a non-entity, isn't he?
On the other hand, he's not entirely wrong; Treebeard admits
that if he hadn't heard Pippin and Merry speaking first, he
might well have taken them for small orcs and stepped on
them. And, Ents and Huorns aside, it was in Saruman's
backyard.
And, as Treebeard also points out, he might have given them
the same advice about Lorien... one of the things the movie,
IMO, did well; you could understand why everyone kept saying
that Galadriel was perilous.
--
================== http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~teneyck ==================
Ross TenEyck Seattle, WA \ Light, kindled in the furnace of hydrogen;
ten...@alumni.caltech.edu \ like smoke, sunlight carries the hot-metal
Are wa yume? Soretomo maboroshi? \ tang of Creation's forge.
Thomas Yan
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:33:31 -0500, Thomas Yan <ty...@twcny.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
-snip-
> >Ch3: pp74 - 94
> >
> >p74: Frodo wants to leave on his 50th birthday.
> >
> >p76: Gandalf stayed for 2+ months. Leaves in June: "I have heard
> > something that has made me anxious" {what? from whom -- Strider?}
>
> He says in the Council chapter that 'a cloud of anxiety was on his
> mind" in June in the Shire. I suspect his wizardly abilities were
> picking up things, not that he'd gotten literal messages.
>
> snip
Hm. I would think Gandalf would have said something more vague than
'heard' in that case, e.g. maybe "I have received tidings".
> >pp84-85: The black rider sniffing/smelling is nicely creepy.
> > {However, why does he sniff?}
>
> Can't see well in light, but can smell. Aragorn explains it, probably
> around Weathertop.
I'll look for it. (I'm a little surprised that I don't remember that
detail.)
> snip
>
> >p118-119: {What's up with Frodo's dream?} "vague dream",
> > "looking out of a high window over a sea of tangled trees",
> > "among the roots # creatures crawling and snuffling",
> > "sound of the Sea far-off"; "dark heath", "tall white tower",
> > "suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was # thunder"
>
> Some of his seem prophetic; this one is rather obscure. What I've
> made of it is a bit of Gollum and Nazgul with elves and longing for
> refuge from his burden symbolized by the Sea and light.
Any idea what's the source of these odd dreams of his? Covert activity
by the Maiar/Valar? Affinities between the One Ring and the other
Great Rings?
Note to self: Pay attention to when Frodo thinks he sees Gandalf on
Weathertop and Gandalf's remarks at Rivendell that the date is wrong.
-snip-
> > {do colors have specific meanings in LOTR?}
>
>
> Don't think so. Even the good guys wear black after all. (Gondorian
> livery)
-snip-
True. (That reminds me that the Riders in The Dark is Rising series
wear all black or all white.)
David E. Siegel
> In article <a3alv5$4...@boofura.swcp.com>, qu...@swcp.com (Taki Kogoma)
> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:33:31 -0500, did Thomas Yan <ty...@twcny.rr.com>,
> > to rec.arts.sf.written decree...
> > [...]
> > >p76: Gandalf stayed for 2+ months. Leaves in June: "I have heard
> > > something that has made me anxious" {what? from whom -- Strider?}
> > > Frodo leaves around September 20.
> >
> > More likely from a passing dwarf in one of the local inns. THere's
> > also "I have stayed longer than I ought" or words to that effect.
>
> Why dwarves instead of Elves?
Dwarves travel and interact with other travelers more than elves do
>
> > I think Gandalf was getting a bit restless and may have heard
> > second-hand about the travellers moving up the greenway through Bree.
>
> You mean the Black Riders?
No there were a fair number of 'strangers' coming up the Greenway --
soem of htese may have been refugees from trouble in the south, soem
may have been spies for Sauraman.
>
> -snip-
> > [...]
> > >p97: Frodo makes a bad choice regarding which path take,
> > > which he'll repeat again at the Old Forest and maybe again
> > > at Moria; or, put another way, he keeps leading people into
> > > danger
> >
Is going into the old forest at all a bad choice? Under the cirs, i
don't think so. once in, he and the whole party are led astray by the
influence of old man willow, but I don't see that as a bad choice per
se.
>
> > Bk II, Ch 4 ("A Journey in the Dark") has the
> > decision to go through Moria being all Gnadalf's encouraged by an
> > encounter with Wargs. Not Frodo's call at all.
>
> Oh yeah. Aragorn says sadly afterwards that (paraphrased) he had
> warned Gandalf that going through Moria could bring him brief.
> Although I also remember Aragorn lamenting that all *his* choices went
> ill.
>
IIRC he said 'this day all my choices have gone ill' and at another
point he said soemthing about 'since I left moria' his choices have
been poor ones -- a pretty limited time, even under the 2nd view.
> > [...]
> > >p118: Yet another feared forest: Old Forest by Hobbits, Mirkwood
> > > by Elves (?), Lothlorien by Boromir
> >
> > Only the southern half or so of Mirkwood. Don't forget Thranduil
> > and Legolas.
But the hobbit's song "Oh travelrs in the Shadowed land, fear not,
though dark they stand..." reminded me of dante's "wood of error",
although tit is taken pretty lightly here. Trees and forests are
obviously important symbols for JRRT, but not simple ones.
>
> True, but the fact that it got renamed Mirkwood was because of the
> encroaching evil, right?
>
> > OTOH, no less than Celeborn warns the company about Fangorn.
>
> Oh yeah! Shameful confession: I generally don't pay attention to
> geography, e.g. maps, and thus have a poor idea of how places are
> arranged with respect to each other. In particular, I couldn't tell
> you the relative positions of the forests.
Mirkwood/greenwood the great is on the East side of the river Anduin,
and streaches a long way both north/south and east/west (it took weeks
to travel though in the hobbit iirc. Fangorn is on the west of Anduin,
just south of the end of the misty Mountains, more or less across the
river from southern mirkwood (and Dol Goldur, Sauron's summer
cottage). it is north of Rohan. The Old forest is just east of the
shire, far north and west of fangorn. Treebeard says that at one time
Fangorn and the old forest were the north and south ends of a singe
vast forest 9which would make it even bigger than mirkwood.
-DES
Elaine Thompson
wrote:
>In article <210j5ugnradnhngpt...@4ax.com>,
> Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:33:31 -0500, Thomas Yan <ty...@twcny.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>-snip-
>> >Ch3: pp74 - 94
>> >
>> >p74: Frodo wants to leave on his 50th birthday.
>> >
>> >p76: Gandalf stayed for 2+ months. Leaves in June: "I have heard
>> > something that has made me anxious" {what? from whom -- Strider?}
>>
>> He says in the Council chapter that 'a cloud of anxiety was on his
>> mind" in June in the Shire. I suspect his wizardly abilities were
>> picking up things, not that he'd gotten literal messages.
>>
>> snip
>
>Hm. I would think Gandalf would have said something more vague than
>'heard' in that case, e.g. maybe "I have received tidings".
Maybe - but we know he hadn't received messages about the Nine until
he left Frodo and met Radagast. He says then that he didn't have time
to go back and collect Frodo so he wrote the letter he left in Bree.
BTW, about the delay in leaving, I've noticed rereading this time
none of the good guys forces anything in FELLOWSHIP. Gandalf urges
Frodo to hurry, but be quiet about it. He's not thrilled with Frodo's
decision to leave in autumn, but he's not going to force him to move
sooner. Strider *asks* to be taken along and is prepared to persuade
them to do it - but it's up to the hobbits (I presume if they said no,
he'd have followed them on the sly to help, anyway). Elrond's Council
waits for a volunteer to be Ringbearer, and then none of the
companions is bound by an oath to stay with the hopeless quest. And
Elrond doesn't force Isildur to destroy the Ring in the backstory
either. I think the Wise are exceptionally wary of pushing people
against their own inclincations. It leads to problems, but they may
have learned the hard way about the problems you get when you push and
force.
snip
>>
>> >p118-119: {What's up with Frodo's dream?} "vague dream",
>> > "looking out of a high window over a sea of tangled trees",
>> > "among the roots # creatures crawling and snuffling",
>> > "sound of the Sea far-off"; "dark heath", "tall white tower",
>> > "suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was # thunder"
>>
>> Some of his seem prophetic; this one is rather obscure. What I've
>> made of it is a bit of Gollum and Nazgul with elves and longing for
>> refuge from his burden symbolized by the Sea and light.
>
>Any idea what's the source of these odd dreams of his? Covert activity
>by the Maiar/Valar? Affinities between the One Ring and the other
>Great Rings?
They're foreshadowings of events mostly (backshadowing, in the Gandalf
as prisoner of Saruman dream). Certain men have foresight - Aragorn,
for one. Elrond does - he nails the second time Boromir is going to
blow his horn. I suspect it's partially random, and partially Maiar.
I don't see anything to point to affinities among the Rings for it.
>
>Note to self: Pay attention to when Frodo thinks he sees Gandalf on
>Weathertop and Gandalf's remarks at Rivendell that the date is wrong.
>
I did a while ago - Gandalf *had* escaped by the time Frodo dreamed.
It's easiest to tell by the timeline in Appendix B.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Brenda W. Clough
A considerable thesis could be written about the use of dreams in LOTR.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at www.analogsf.com
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Chris Farmer
As I looked at the map for my latest reread, I was struck by the
closeness of the three forests east of the Misty Mountains. Mirkwood
is ~75 mi from Lorien which is ~60 mi from Fangorn. Is there some
historical reason given in the books that the primal "metaforest" was
fragmented? Considering the power of Galadriel+ring, it seems
unlikely they would have fragmented naturally. And especially
unlikely when you throw in the stewardship of Treebeard in Fangorn.
The power of G+ring and Treebeard should have been enough to maintain
the connection.
I don't recall that citation about the unification of Fangorn and the
Old Forest - did it include the eastern woods? Ecologically,
connecting Fangorn and the Old Forest through the Misty Mountains
seems... improbable.
Chris
--
note spam blockers in effect:
there are NO underscores in my address, and i work @home
Ethan Merritt
Chris Farmer <chris_farmer_SP_AM@AWAY_work.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>As I looked at the map for my latest reread, I was struck by the
>closeness of the three forests east of the Misty Mountains. Mirkwood
>is ~75 mi from Lorien which is ~60 mi from Fangorn. Is there some
>historical reason given in the books that the primal "metaforest" was
>fragmented?
I do not recall specific mention of the fragmentation of those three
bits of forest, but in general the Northeast of Middle Earth, which
is to say pretty much everything that shows on the LoTR maps, was
deforested by the ship-building efforts of the Numenorians during
the Second Age. They totally denuded the coastland between Gondor
and the Shire.
>Considering the power of Galadriel+ring, it seems
>unlikely they would have fragmented naturally. And especially
>unlikely when you throw in the stewardship of Treebeard in Fangorn.
>The power of G+ring and Treebeard should have been enough to maintain
>the connection.
Ah, but Galadriel and the ring weren't there to stop it.
In "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn", one of the sections of
_Unfinished Tales_, we learn unexpectedly that Galadriel had only
come to Lothlorien recently. She spent most of the Second Age in
Eregion. That makes sense, since it puts her in the right place to
participate with Celebrimbor in the ring-making enterprise. After
the Last Alliance overthrew Sauron, Galadriel lived for many years
at Rivendell, where her daughter Celebrian hooked up with Elrond.
This reminds us that Arwen is Galadriel's grand-daughter, though
I don't remember whether this was explicit in LoTR proper.
Then (after Arwen was born?? I'm not sure) the sea-longing took
Galadriel, and the whole family moved down to Dol Amroth. Only
late in the Third Age, in 1981 TA, did Galadriel and Celborn
shift their operations to Lothlorien.
This essay alone is enough to make it worth hunting up
_Unfinished Tales_. I now see that it also holds the bit I
couldn't find earlier, explaining a bit more about the history
of the elven rings. Galadriel had hers direct from Celebrimbor.
The other two went to Gil-galad, who gave Vilya to Elrond at
the time he appointed Elrond to be vice-regent and generally
in charge of keeping things under control in Eriador. There are
conflicting versions of when Gil-Galad gave the third ring,
Narya, to Cirdan. In this essay it is stated that he did so
just before setting out to lead the host of the Last Alliance
in its assault on Sauron. The implication seems to be that he
didn't want to take the ring into battle. But this makes little
sense given that we are told elsewhere that Cirdan was at the
final battle of the Last Alliance also.
--
Ethan A Merritt
Michael S. Schiffer
<a3i23e$1n0$1...@brogar.bmsc.washington.edu>:
>conflicting versions of when Gil-Galad gave the third ring,
>Narya, to Cirdan. In this essay it is stated that he did so
>just before setting out to lead the host of the Last Alliance
>in its assault on Sauron. The implication seems to be that he
>didn't want to take the ring into battle. But this makes little
>sense given that we are told elsewhere that Cirdan was at the
>final battle of the Last Alliance also.
Given that the Elves are prone to occasional touches of foresight, it
may be that Gil-Galad knew that he wasn't going to survive the battle,
but that Cirdan would.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Elaine Thompson
(Ethan Merritt) wrote:
snip history of forests in Middle Earth
>
>Ah, but Galadriel and the ring weren't there to stop it.
>In "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn", one of the sections of
>_Unfinished Tales_, we learn unexpectedly that Galadriel had only
>come to Lothlorien recently. She spent most of the Second Age in
>Eregion. That makes sense, since it puts her in the right place to
>participate with Celebrimbor in the ring-making enterprise. After
>the Last Alliance overthrew Sauron, Galadriel lived for many years
>at Rivendell, where her daughter Celebrian hooked up with Elrond.
>This reminds us that Arwen is Galadriel's grand-daughter, though
>I don't remember whether this was explicit in LoTR proper.
Sort of. If you pay attention to what Aragorn says when she gives him
the Elessar. Something to the effect of "... Lady of whom was sprung
Celebrian and Arwen..." It helps if you know who Celebrian was so it
went right past me on first (second, third) readings until I read the
Appendices.
Wasn't Galadriel's story one of the elements Tolkien kept changing?
she's supposed to have made the mallorns, for instance, and if she
only recently got to Lorien, that doesn't jibe with it's long history
as the Golden Wood.
snip
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Ethan Merritt
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
>On Sun, 3 Feb 2002 01:00:30 +0000 (UTC), mer...@u.washington.edu
>(Ethan Merritt) wrote:
>
>
>
>snip history of forests in Middle Earth
>
Yup. By the end of it she almost on a whole other plane from the other
elves in Middle Earth. He was working towards having had her leave
Aman before the kin-slaying and prior to the ban of no return.
That way she would have been free of the those taints, and her long
stay in Middle Earth would be more directly attributable to her own
ambitions.
>she's supposed to have made the mallorns, for instance, and if she
>only recently got to Lorien, that doesn't jibe with it's long history
>as the Golden Wood.
That part of it I don't recall, however. Who is it in LoTR that
says something to the effect "if there are mallorn trees in Aman
no one has reported it"? That would seem to imply that their
provenance was unknown, at least to whichever elf says this.
Even so, if she planted the mallorns when she moved there in 1981 SA
then the mallorns have had a thousand years to grow by the time the
fellowship sees them.
Where was this mallorn creation mentioned?
--
Ethan A Merritt
Michael S. Schiffer
@brogar.bmsc.washington.edu>:
>In article <u2ep5ukul2v2u39h9...@4ax.com>,
>Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
>...
>>Wasn't Galadriel's story one of the elements Tolkien kept changing?
>Yup. By the end of it she almost on a whole other plane from the other
>elves in Middle Earth. He was working towards having had her leave
>Aman before the kin-slaying and prior to the ban of no return.
>That way she would have been free of the those taints, and her long
>stay in Middle Earth would be more directly attributable to her own
>ambitions.
As with some of Tolkien's other later attempts at revisions (making Orcs
derive from Men rather than Elves, and getting rid of the idea that
Middle-Earth was flat until the fall of Numenor), I prefer the earlier
picture. I like Galadriel as a penitent former rebel, and don't see
that she's improved by absolving her of any involvement in the Revolt of
the Noldor. (Though putting her on the right side of the Kinslaying is
reasonable, particularly given her family connections to the Teleri.)
>>she's supposed to have made the mallorns, for instance, and if she
>>only recently got to Lorien, that doesn't jibe with it's long history
>>as the Golden Wood.
>That part of it I don't recall, however. Who is it in LoTR that
>says something to the effect "if there are mallorn trees in Aman
>no one has reported it"? That would seem to imply that their
>provenance was unknown, at least to whichever elf says this.
Though he (Haldir, maybe?) may have been reading the wrong reports. In
"A Description of Numenor" (in _Unfinished Tales_), the lands around the
western haven of Numenor grew a number of different plants brought from
Eressea, including "the golden tree _malinorne_, reaching after five
centuries a height scarce less than it achieved in Eressea itself."
(The description which follows makes it clear that these are mallorns,
and not just another tree with a similar name.) It may well be that
those reports came to the Red Book from Minas Tirith or Rivendell rather
than Lorien, though.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
Dorothy J Heydt
Ethan Merritt <mer...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>That part of it I don't recall, however. Who is it in LoTR that
>says something to the effect "if there are mallorn trees in Aman
>no one has reported it"?
Haldir or one of his buddies, as they lead the Company through
Lothlorien. Before the blindfolds are removed IIRC.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Elaine Thompson
(Ethan Merritt) wrote:
>In article <u2ep5ukul2v2u39h9...@4ax.com>,
>Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
>>On Sun, 3 Feb 2002 01:00:30 +0000 (UTC), mer...@u.washington.edu
>>(Ethan Merritt) wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>snip history of forests in Middle Earth
>>
>>Wasn't Galadriel's story one of the elements Tolkien kept changing?
>
>Yup. By the end of it she almost on a whole other plane from the other
>elves in Middle Earth. He was working towards having had her leave
>Aman before the kin-slaying and prior to the ban of no return.
>That way she would have been free of the those taints, and her long
>stay in Middle Earth would be more directly attributable to her own
>ambitions.
I'm glad he didn't succeed. She's a more interesting character with
some negative stuff in her background. Although I don't mind him
getting her out of the kin-slaying.
>
>>she's supposed to have made the mallorns, for instance, and if she
>>only recently got to Lorien, that doesn't jibe with it's long history
>>as the Golden Wood.
>
>That part of it I don't recall, however. Who is it in LoTR that
>says something to the effect "if there are mallorn trees in Aman
>no one has reported it"? That would seem to imply that their
>provenance was unknown, at least to whichever elf says this.
>Even so, if she planted the mallorns when she moved there in 1981 SA
>then the mallorns have had a thousand years to grow by the time the
>fellowship sees them.
>Where was this mallorn creation mentioned?
I don't remember - thought it was in one of the early Christopher
Tolkien compilations but a quick check of indices didn't produce it.
Maybe I made it up from her song "I sang of leaves of gold and leaves
of gold there grew..." plus Haldir's words about not knowing if
mallorns grew in Aman. Haldir doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't
know where Lorien's mallorns came from, does he? Couldn't he just
mean what he says?
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Ross TenEyck
>After
>the Last Alliance overthrew Sauron, Galadriel lived for many years
>at Rivendell, where her daughter Celebrian hooked up with Elrond.
>This reminds us that Arwen is Galadriel's grand-daughter, though
>I don't remember whether this was explicit in LoTR proper.
I think it's stated somewhat tangentially in the text, but made
explicit in the appendices.
Speaking of Arwen's grandparents, it wasn't until I'd read the
Silmarillion that I realized that Elrond was one of the very,
very few people who could look up at the night sky, pick out
a particular star...
...and say, "Hi, Dad."
That must have been pretty trippy for Arwen as a small child.
"Daddy, how come Grandpa never comes to visit?" "Well, he
should be rising in about half an hour. You can wave at him."
Andrew Plotkin
> That must have been pretty trippy for Arwen as a small child.
> "Daddy, how come Grandpa never comes to visit?" "Well, he
> should be rising in about half an hour. You can wave at him."
Heh.
I had a like moment of realization a few days ago, considering the
beauty of the Silmarils, and how it was kind of a cheat to write about
such mythically lovely things without having to describe them in real
terms. Then I realized that it was night, and there was a bright
planet overhead, and I could *look* at a Silmaril. From very far off.
(Then I realized that it was midnight, so the planet was probably
Jupiter. Well, close, anyway.)
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
Jeffrey C. Dege
>
>Heh.
>
>I had a like moment of realization a few days ago, considering the
>beauty of the Silmarils, and how it was kind of a cheat to write about
>such mythically lovely things without having to describe them in real
>terms. Then I realized that it was night, and there was a bright
>planet overhead, and I could *look* at a Silmaril. From very far off.
>
>(Then I realized that it was midnight, so the planet was probably
>Jupiter. Well, close, anyway.)
I thought the Silmaril was Sirius - not a planet.
--
While it may be that a society in which crime is so rare that no one
ever needs to carry a weapon is "civilized," a society that stigmatizes
the carrying of weapons by the law-abiding -- because it distrusts its
citizens more than it fears rapists, robbers, and murderers -- certainly
cannot claim this distinction.
- Jeffrey Snyder, "Nation of Cowards"
Dorothy J Heydt
Jeffrey C. Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com> wrote:
>On 4 Feb 2002 22:29:59 GMT, Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>>
>>Heh.
>>
>>I had a like moment of realization a few days ago, considering the
>>beauty of the Silmarils, and how it was kind of a cheat to write about
>>such mythically lovely things without having to describe them in real
>>terms. Then I realized that it was night, and there was a bright
>>planet overhead, and I could *look* at a Silmaril. From very far off.
>>
>>(Then I realized that it was midnight, so the planet was probably
>>Jupiter. Well, close, anyway.)
>
>I thought the Silmaril was Sirius - not a planet.
No, no, it's the evening/morning star, which is Venus. Tolkien
got the name from Old English _earendel_, "morning star,"
Eala earendel engla beorhtast,
Ofer middengeard monnum sended.
"Hail, morning star, brightest of angels,
Over Middle-Earth sent to mankind."
which is (IIRC) the same as Old Norse Aurvendil, who got his toe
frozen off and Thor (again IIRC) tossed it up into the sky....
(Must go look up some sources. Shall I go via Shippey or
Carpenter?)
Irina Rempt
> I had a like moment of realization a few days ago, considering the
> beauty of the Silmarils, and how it was kind of a cheat to write
> about such mythically lovely things without having to describe them
> in real terms. Then I realized that it was night, and there was a
> bright planet overhead, and I could *look* at a Silmaril. From very
> far off.
When I was a teenage Tolkien buff, my best friend (also a teenage
Tolkien buff) used to look at the morning star, when we saw it as we
were going to school, with something approaching reverence.
Irina
--
ir...@valdyas.org
http://www.valdyas.org/irina/index.html (English)
http://www.valdyas.org/irina/backpage.html (Nederlands)
Jens Kilian
> (Must go look up some sources. Shall I go via Shippey or
> Carpenter?)
I go via Google, which gives me the following hit for "Eala earendel engla
beorhtast":
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~cherryne/myth.cgi/Aurvandil.html
What *I*'d like to know if this Earendel/Aurvandil/Horwendil is related
to Cabell's Horvendile(sp?).
Bye,
Jens.
--
mailto:j...@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698)
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351
PGP: 06 04 1C 35 7B DC 1F 26 As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
0x555DA8B5 BB A2 F0 66 77 75 E1 08 so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
James Burbidge
wrote:
The ultimate original of that text on the other side is the "day-star"
in the sense of Christ:
"O Oriens, splendor lucis aeternae..."
The Anglo-Saxon is a paraphrase of one of the Great O antiphons.
James Burbidge jamesandma...@sympatico.ca
James Burbidge
wrote:
>djh...@Kithrup.COM (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>> (Must go look up some sources. Shall I go via Shippey or
>> Carpenter?)
>
>I go via Google, which gives me the following hit for "Eala earendel engla
>beorhtast":
>
> http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~cherryne/myth.cgi/Aurvandil.html
>
>What *I*'d like to know if this Earendel/Aurvandil/Horwendil is related
>to Cabell's Horvendile(sp?).
Yes. Also to one of Hamlet's relatives, IIRC. Of course, Cabell's
Leshy are always somewhat removed from their originals.
I think one of the books has a reference to the star, in an oblique
way, but I can't run it down right now.
James Burbidge jamesandma...@sympatico.ca
Dorothy J Heydt
James Burbidge <jamesandma...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>> Eala earendel engla beorhtast,
>> Ofer middengeard monnum sended.
>>
>>"Hail, morning star, brightest of angels,
>>Over Middle-Earth sent to mankind."
>>
>in the sense of Christ:
>
>"O Oriens, splendor lucis aeternae..."
>
>The Anglo-Saxon is a paraphrase of one of the Great O antiphons.
Oh, thank you! I did not know that and I'm delighted to now.
Laura Burchard
>Speaking of Arwen's grandparents, it wasn't until I'd read the
>Silmarillion that I realized that Elrond was one of the very,
>very few people who could look up at the night sky, pick out
>a particular star...
>...and say, "Hi, Dad."
I actually didn't get the impact of that until my post-movie bout of
Tolkienism and reading. What's even more interesting, though not obvious
from the published text of the Silmarillion, is according to the Tolkien
Society, http://www.tolkiensociety.org/media/Who_is_who.html, Earendil
actually set out for the West before the twins were born. So Elrond's
never seen his father _except_ as that star. And what a strange first
meeting they must have had at Elwing's tower in Aman.
Some don't like Weaving's (and PJ's) take on Elrond, but I have to say it
has made me think about what a strange and difficult life Elrond has had.
--
Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
Livejournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/tavella/
"Good design is clear thinking made visible." -- Edward Tufte