WorldWar:Striking the Balance
Jeremiah Patterson
I've just finished reading Hary Turtledove's World War:Striking the
Balance and must say that while I've enjoyed the series as awhole I
found this last one not as good as the others. I didn't like the way he
handle Skorzeny in the final instalment, it was out of place with his
earlier portrayals. Earlier he was dipected as an adventurer, while
here he is just depicted as a madman. I didn't like the A-bomb in
poland. It just wasn't very exciting. I also wished he resolved a
couple of things. Like what happened to Japan. It was never made clear
what the deal, or even if there was a deal, they made with the race.
Come to think of it Hary was laxed on the entire PTO throughout his
series. Except for a couple of china episodes, he hardly mentions
them. I realy wish he would have done an operation Downfall. I think
this was is one of the great What-If's of all time. All in all B-
Mark Flynn
Jeremiah Patterson wrote:
>
> I've just finished reading Hary Turtledove's World War:Striking the
> Balance and must say that while I've enjoyed the series as awhole I
Yes, I feel the same way. I really enjoyed the first three books in the
series, but this last one didn't capture the same magic.
> found this last one not as good as the others. I didn't like the way he
> handle Skorzeny in the final instalment, it was out of place with his
> earlier portrayals. Earlier he was dipected as an adventurer, while
> here he is just depicted as a madman.
Yeah, he didn't even seem like the same character. I actually kinda
liked him in the other installments, but he was more of a pathetic
annoyance in this one. There's a note at the end of the book, where the
author thanks a few people for correcting some historical inaccuracies
(or somesuch) in the earlier books. Maybe his original personality was
not consistant with what Skorzeny was really like, and so he changed it
for accuracy sake (??).
<snip>
> what the deal, or even if there was a deal, they made with the race.
**Spoiler warning**
My impression was that they got some of the desert areas of Africa in
exchange for a peace with the major powers. I wish he could've had one
more chapter dealing with the arrival of the colony ships that were to
arrive sometime in the 1960's (?)... Of course maybe he's leaving
himself open for another series involved with this.
> I think
> this was is one of the great What-If's of all time. All in all B-
I hadn't actually purchased a book (let alone a hardcover) in a VERY
long time, but the premise of Aliens invading Earth during WW II was
just too good to pass up for me, and I ended up buying all four as soon
as they hit the shelves. The first few books were especially enjoyable
to me, and the fourth wasn't so bad that it detracted from the overall
fun I had reading them. I think your B- grade is about right.
Regards,
-Shriker
Steve Gill
GI...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA
Doug Hoff
M.D.B. <eq...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<32a3d630...@news.mindspring.com>...
> On Mon, 02 Dec 1996 20:57:17 -0500, Mark Flynn
> <fly...@post.queensu.ca> wrote:
>
> >**Spoiler warning**
> >
> >My impression was that they got some of the desert areas of Africa in
> >exchange for a peace with the major powers. I wish he could've had one
> >more chapter dealing with the arrival of the colony ships that were to
> >arrive sometime in the 1960's (?)... Of course maybe he's leaving
> >himself open for another series involved with this.
I was under the impression that there _would_ be other books in the series.
It has been promoted as a "hexology" and I dont think there's been six
books. I could be wrong; I dont own them, and I have lost count.
Also, given the cavalier nuking of Sydney and Melbourne, I thought that the
Aussies would be handed over to the Race. The shipmaster expressed some
interest in Australia, as I recall.
>
> I would, however, love to see a sequel set during the arrival of the
> colonization fleet
Motion seconded from this chair!
dh
Ken Finto
In article <01bbe19f$38bd4b80$15ccaec7@doughoff>, "Doug Hoff" <hoff...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>I was under the impression that there _would_ be other books in the series.
> It has been promoted as a "hexology" and I dont think there's been six
>books. I could be wrong; I dont own them, and I have lost count.
So far 3 books have been written in the series.
>> I would, however, love to see a sequel set during the arrival of the
>> colonization fleet
>
>Motion seconded from this chair!
I want a sequel set also!
Steven H Silver
Ken Finto wrote:
>
> In article <01bbe19f$38bd4b80$15ccaec7@doughoff>, "Doug Hoff" <hoff...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>
> >I was under the impression that there _would_ be other books in the series.
> > It has been promoted as a "hexology" and I dont think there's been six
> >books. I could be wrong; I dont own them, and I have lost count.
Actually, it was originally conceived as a four book series. In a
recent interview (which can be read at my website), Turtledove mentioned
that he might wind up writing an additional book in the series.
However, given that he has contracts through the next four years, it
would be a while before he would get around to it. You may be confusing
the Worldwar series with his forthcoming six-book alternate WWI series.
> So far 3 books have been written in the series.
Actually, all four books have been released, the fourth came out about a
month ago.
--
Steven H
Silver
silv...@earthlink.net
http://www.sfsite.com/~silverag/index.html
Harry Turtledove Bibliography, Jewish SF, Chicago SF, Debut SF, Book
Reviews
-----------------
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4208/index.html
Medieval History Bibliographies, Chicago, Random Links
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <32a3d630...@news.mindspring.com>,
M.D.B. <eq...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 02 Dec 1996 20:57:17 -0500, Mark Flynn
><fly...@post.queensu.ca> wrote:
>
>>**Spoiler warning**
>>
>>My impression was that they got some of the desert areas of Africa in
>>exchange for a peace with the major powers. I wish he could've had one
>>more chapter dealing with the arrival of the colony ships that were to
>>arrive sometime in the 1960's (?)... Of course maybe he's leaving
>>himself open for another series involved with this.
>>
>the impression that he sort of just wrapped it up as fast as he could.
>And the ending was remarkably anti-climactic, as well as completely
>out of character for the aliens. Before this book I was sure it was
>going to be a fight to the death. The only saving grace is a comment
>by one of the aliens that they had patience, and would eventually win,
>leaving me to believe that their offer of a negotiated peace was a
>sham.
>
I'd been hoping that the Lizards, having been corrupted by Earth,
would take over their home planet. Isn't that how Eric Frank
Russel would have done it?
Is there any reason why humans didn't use powdered ginger bombs?
(I've only read up to the third book, but I don't care about spoilers
for the fourth.)
--
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
October '96 calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Robert Posey
In article <583pde$9...@newshost.vvm.com>, fi...@vvm.com says...
>
>In article <01bbe19f$38bd4b80$15ccaec7@doughoff>, "Doug Hoff"
>com> wrote:
>
>>I was under the impression that there _would_ be other books in the series.
>> It has been promoted as a "hexology" and I dont think there's been six
>>books. I could be wrong; I dont own them, and I have lost count.
>
>
>>> colonization fleet
Home World. With the jump the captured tech. would give them, I would
imagine that the invasion fleet could be launched by the year 2000. I can't
imagine Earth's Leaders making the mistake of not removing a proven threat.
An Empire like the Lizards would have to remove the stain on their honor that
the defeat of thier invasion fleet would leave. It would simply be a case of
beating them to the punch. The biggest question is what would happen to the
world with Hilter and The Japanese Emp. still in power. The damage done by
Stalin and his sucessors was bad enough. I feel that at least Hilter would
have to be removed.
Posey
Peter Cash
Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
> Is there any reason why humans didn't use powdered ginger bombs?
> (I've only read up to the third book, but I don't care about spoilers
> for the fourth.)
How would you like to be opposite a line of Lizard soldiery when that
ginger cloud drifts over to them? Remember what happened to the NKVD
interrogator when he let the subservient Lizard informant and Ulhaas
have a sniff?
Well, I suppose a ginger bomb could be used to goad Lizards to attack
when it wasn't to their advantage...
On another note...HEXALOGY? Did someone say HEXALOGY? I'd say that when
a series gets so long that you lose count of how many books you've
read, then it's too long. I _think_ I've read four of them...so there's
TWO more? Or is it just a HEPTALOGY? Someone _please_ clear this up!
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.
(apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peter Cash
Peter Cash wrote:
> Or is it just a HEPTALOGY? Someone _please_ clear this up!
I meant PENTALOGY, of course.
gi...@qucdn.queensu.ca
Robert Posey wrote:
> I would rather see a sequel when the Earth invades the The Race
> (Lizards) Home World.
<<snip>>
I'd go for that. "WorldWar: Screw the Balance!" <G>
Another scenerio I'd like to see (and have mentioned here quite a while
back) is one where the Avatar (Fleet Commander) gets a message from
their Homeworld. In it, the Emperor reports that one of their other
Fleets has encountered another Race that is significantly more advanced
than them, and is kicking their butts. The Avatar figures he can regain
some of the prestige he lost, when he failed to conquer Earth, by
bringing Mankind into an alliance. Our talent for innovation, etc,
combined with their superior technology would greatly improve the
chances of turning the tide against this new aggressive foe.
I enjoyed seeing the differences between us and the Lizards, and
especially how they viewed them, and it'd be nice to have another
entirely different Alien Race thrown into the mix.
Regards,
-Shriker
Steve Gill
Gi...@qucdn.queensu.ca
Peter H. Granzeau
On Wed, 04 Dec 1996 11:23:20 -0600, Peter Cash <ca...@convex.com>
wrote:
>On another note...HEXALOGY? Did someone say HEXALOGY? I'd say that when
>a series gets so long that you lose count of how many books you've
>read, then it's too long. I _think_ I've read four of them...so there's
>TWO more? Or is it just a HEPTALOGY? Someone _please_ clear this up!
Confusion with another six book future series about World War I by
Turtledove.
blu...@tcd.ie
Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
> Confusion with another six book future series about World War I by
> Turtledove.
Say What ? When ? What about ? who ? .......DETAILS NOW !!!
Thanks
Peter H. Granzeau
Forthcoming (e.g, planned, not written).
Steven H Silver
blu...@tcd.ie wrote:
>
> Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
>
> > Confusion with another six book future series about World War I by
> > Turtledove.
>
> Say What ? When ? What about ? who ? .......DETAILS NOW !!!
The first book, _How Few Remain_ is scheduled for hardcover release next
fall. For more info on Turtledove and his forthcoming books, check out
my website at: http://www.sfsite.com/~silverag/turtledove.html
Mike Ralls
blu...@tcd.ie wrote:
>
> Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
>
> > Confusion with another six book future series about World War I by
> > Turtledove.
>
> Say What ? When ? What about ? who ? .......DETAILS NOW !!!
> Thanks
The next series is to be called RETURN ENGAGMENT. It is to take place
during World War One. In this ATL the south wins the civil war. This
series has nothing, I repeat nothing, to do with Hary Turtledove's other
book "The Guns of the South" (A place where Robert E Lee got some AK-47s
by some time traveling South Africans.) Don't confuse the two. A
couple months back, someone did and Harry wrote a letter swearing at
them (no joke). The US is allied with Germany. And the CS is with
Britian. The change is at Antitum where Lee doesn't loose his plans and
goes on to win it. The war is over by 1863. This six volume series
will be preceded by a prequel called HOW FEW REMAIN, set in the
American Southwest at the close of the 19th century. This wartime drama
will feature many of the most colorful--and surprising--figures from
United States history.
James Walter Frusetta
Mark Flynn (fly...@post.queensu.ca) wrote:
: Yeah, he didn't even seem like the same character. I actually kinda
: annoyance in this one. There's a note at the end of the book, where the
: author thanks a few people for correcting some historical inaccuracies
: (or somesuch) in the earlier books. Maybe his original personality was
: not consistant with what Skorzeny was really like, and so he changed it
: for accuracy sake (??).
After reading the series I was interested enough to try and read more on
Skorzeny (the Savior of Benito!) , but I was surprised how little there
is; apparently he planned some of the assorted war crimes at the Battle of
the Bulge, and he's in bad odor with US historians for the same, from what
little I could find.
Turtledove probably got a couple of critical letters and decided to cover
his rear; off-hand, I don't know what his exact crimes were, but I've seen
his name in connection to the shooting of US prisoners and the use of US
uniforms by commando units (which the US treated as a capital offense,
making the plethora of "US soldiers-disguised-as-Germans-
on-special-mission-in-Germany" movies kind of ironic, eh?) I haven't seen
enough to tell you if either charge was true, though.
==========================================================================
James Frusetta gera...@wam.umd.edu
Department of History University of Maryland, College Park
==========================================================================
Barry DeCicco
In article <589lgm$h...@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>, gera...@wam.umd.edu (James Walter Frusetta) writes:
|> Mark Flynn (fly...@post.queensu.ca) wrote:
|> : Yeah, he didn't even seem like the same character. I actually kinda
|> : liked him in the other installments, but he was more of a pathetic
|> : annoyance in this one. There's a note at the end of the book, where the
|> : author thanks a few people for correcting some historical inaccuracies
|> : (or somesuch) in the earlier books. Maybe his original personality was
|> : not consistant with what Skorzeny was really like, and so he changed it
|> : for accuracy sake (??).
|>
|> After reading the series I was interested enough to try and read more on
|> Skorzeny (the Savior of Benito!) , but I was surprised how little there
|> is; apparently he planned some of the assorted war crimes at the Battle of
|> the Bulge, and he's in bad odor with US historians for the same, from what
|> little I could find.
|>
|> Turtledove probably got a couple of critical letters and decided to cover
|> his rear; off-hand, I don't know what his exact crimes were, but I've seen
|> his name in connection to the shooting of US prisoners and the use of US
|> uniforms by commando units (which the US treated as a capital offense,
|> making the plethora of "US soldiers-disguised-as-Germans-
|> on-special-mission-in-Germany" movies kind of ironic, eh?) I haven't seen
|> enough to tell you if either charge was true, though.
Wearing an enemy uniform makes one a spy, and forfeits the protection
of the 'laws of war'. Some or all of those german soldiers captured in
US uniforms were shot. Some of them claimed that they hadn't fought (yet)
in those uniforms, and that they planned to change into their German uniforms
before doing so. This was given little or no weight.
In the usual "US soldiers-disguised-as-Germans-on-special-mission-in-Germany"
movies, the usual assumption is that the heroes would be lucky to be
immediately shot upon capture, the alternative being to be handed over
the Gestapo as captured spies. I can't recall any book or movie wherein
this assumption was not made.
Barry
p
Robert A. Woodward
> Mark Flynn (fly...@post.queensu.ca) wrote:
> : Yeah, he didn't even seem like the same character. I actually kinda
> : liked him in the other installments, but he was more of a pathetic
> : annoyance in this one. There's a note at the end of the book, where the
> : author thanks a few people for correcting some historical inaccuracies
> : (or somesuch) in the earlier books. Maybe his original personality was
> : not consistant with what Skorzeny was really like, and so he changed it
> : for accuracy sake (??).
>
> After reading the series I was interested enough to try and read more on
> Skorzeny (the Savior of Benito!) , but I was surprised how little there
> is; apparently he planned some of the assorted war crimes at the Battle of
> the Bulge, and he's in bad odor with US historians for the same, from what
> little I could find.
>
> Turtledove probably got a couple of critical letters and decided to cover
> his rear; off-hand, I don't know what his exact crimes were, but I've seen
> his name in connection to the shooting of US prisoners and the use of US
> uniforms by commando units (which the US treated as a capital offense,
> making the plethora of "US soldiers-disguised-as-Germans-
> on-special-mission-in-Germany" movies kind of ironic, eh?) I haven't seen
> enough to tell you if either charge was true, though.
I don't believe Skorzeny was ever tried for a war crime (pulling off
miracles for Adolph doesn't qualify). The story I heard about Skorzeny at
Malmedy was that he grabbed a whole bunch of American POWs (who were under
a significant threat of being murdered) and personally escorted them to a
POW camp.
Paul F. Dietz
a018...@dlep1.itg.ti.com (Robert Posey) wrote:
>I would rather see a sequel when the Earth invades the The Race (Lizards)
>Home World. With the jump the captured tech. would give them, I would
>imagine that the invasion fleet could be launched by the year 2000.
Very unlikely. The technology needed to build starships is far beyond
anything they'd have in 2000. It's even far beyond what the Lizards
should have, given their military technology. Especially starships
that could travel at .5 c, as the Lizards are supposed to be able to
(btw, they can't be fusion powered; fusion is too wimpy for a starship
that would go that fast.) If we budget 100 kilograms per passenger
in the colonization fleet, then the kinetic energy of that fleet is
roughly 10^28 joules, which is some 30 million times the current world
annual primary energy consumption. This isn't just advanced
technology, it's practically supernatural technology. Turtledove
should have had the starships be very slow, say .01 c or less.
Perhaps a more likely, if subtle, means of "invading" the Empire would
be to infect it with information. I get the feeling its social
structure is not up to interaction with an independent society. For
example, what would happen if human research found the active chemical
in ginger and transmitted its formula back to the home world? Someone
would make it, get addicted, and its use would spread like a virus.
This does offer a possibly interesting direction for future stories:
the Lizards on Earth would (mostly) remain committed to their Emperor,
but would deviate socially due to interaction with humans, leading to
conflict with the rest of their species back on the other worlds.
BTW, I don't understand why Atvar didn't just order Earth clobbered
with asteroids. He could have demolished cities at will with no risk
of radioactive fallout. At least some bafflegab explaining why this
wouldn't be feasible would have been useful.
I'm also surprised the Race didn't exploit biological warfare. After
all, there must be plenty of viruses and things that affect humans but
not lizards. Conservatism or lack of imagination, I suppose.
Finally, what are the Lizards doing conquering planets, anyway? If
they want real estate, space colonies offer much more surface area.
If they are worried about competitors, ballistic genocide is easier
and cheaper.
Paul
Brian Griffin
di...@interaccess.com (Paul F. Dietz) inscribed this on cyberspace:
{snip}
>BTW, I don't understand why Atvar didn't just order Earth clobbered
>with asteroids. He could have demolished cities at will with no risk
>of radioactive fallout. At least some bafflegab explaining why this
>wouldn't be feasible would have been useful.
>I'm also surprised the Race didn't exploit biological warfare. After
>all, there must be plenty of viruses and things that affect humans but
>not lizards. Conservatism or lack of imagination, I suppose.
>Finally, what are the Lizards doing conquering planets, anyway? If
>they want real estate, space colonies offer much more surface area.
>If they are worried about competitors, ballistic genocide is easier
>and cheaper.
I often wondered why the Lizards didn't use some sort of orbital
kinetic weaponry......using smaller stuff on a tactical scale could
have been a great help to them. But I can see one reason why they
wouldn't have done a major strategic bombardment with asteroid-size
things: climate change, long term changes that the lizards would find
even less congenial than humans would. I doubt the little scaly
devil's colonization fleet would have been very happy to arrive during
a 'Little Ice Age'.
I'd wag that making human-specific viruses would require all sorts of
specialized equipment they wouldn't have brought......they were
planning on assimilation, not genocide, after all. Obtaining and
breeding existing biologicals probably never occurred to them....
--
Real people (as oppposed to spammers) may EMail me at:
gri...@cdt.infi.net || Grateful Dead/Robert Hunter tapelist
(come by if you'd like some help starting a collection):
www.demonsys.com/jim/g/gri...@cdt.infi.net.html
Sean Eric Fagan
In article <58ciev$c...@nw101.infi.net>,
Brian Griffin <laph...@whisky.edu> wrote:
>I often wondered why the Lizards didn't use some sort of orbital
>kinetic weaponry
Simple: it never occurred to them. All of their warfare tacticts were
basicly stuff they had learned on the original home world, before they went
into space. So they were never able to stumble on the thought of dropping
things as a tactical weapon, just as they had such a hard time with the
concept of boats and submarines.
>I'd wag that making human-specific viruses would require all sorts of
>specialized equipment they wouldn't have brought......they were
>planning on assimilation, not genocide, after all. Obtaining and
>breeding existing biologicals probably never occurred to them....
We saw no evidence that they had ever done *anything* with genetic
engineering. So tailoring viruses was probably something they had never
done.
In addition, they had clumsy biological sciences as well -- consider their
"truth serum" for humans that they had such dismal failures with. And,
given their reaction to the nerve gas, they had probably never thought of
using chemical or biological agents in warfare.
ttel...@phoenix.net
>
> Confusion with another six book future series about World War I by
> Turtledove.
The series is set in a world where the Confederacy won the Civil War. The
CSA is partnered with the Brits and the Rump USA is a co-belligerent with
Germany (not an ally).
Paul F. Dietz
s...@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) wrote:
>We saw no evidence that they had ever done *anything* with genetic
>engineering. So tailoring viruses was probably something they had never
>done.
Who said anything about tailoring? Garden-variety smallpox would be
nasty enough. Or aerosol rabies.
Paul
Barry DeCicco
In article <58cgf0$t...@nntp.interaccess.com>, di...@interaccess.com (Paul F. Dietz) writes:
|> a018...@dlep1.itg.ti.com (Robert Posey) wrote:
|>
|>
|> BTW, I don't understand why Atvar didn't just order Earth clobbered
|> with asteroids. He could have demolished cities at will with no risk
|> of radioactive fallout. At least some bafflegab explaining why this
|> wouldn't be feasible would have been useful.
Or just nuke the hundred biggest cities, with airbursts.
This shouldn't cause enough fallout to matter twenty years
later, when the colonists arrive. Even right afterward, it should
be a simple matter to avoid it. This would have smashed a good chunk of
the major nations' industries and organization.
The total firepower expended in WWII was 3 megatons,
over six years, with a lot of it expended on battlefields and
at sea. Assuming 1/3 megaton warheads, this would be on the order of 30
megatons, delivered on target on cities (as opposed to scattered on or around
the city), at a much higher rate (over seconds for each target, and
hours for all of the target in a given country).
|>
|> I'm also surprised the Race didn't exploit biological warfare. After
|> all, there must be plenty of viruses and things that affect humans but
|> not lizards. Conservatism or lack of imagination, I suppose.
|>
|> Finally, what are the Lizards doing conquering planets, anyway? If
|> they want real estate, space colonies offer much more surface area.
|> If they are worried about competitors, ballistic genocide is easier
|> and cheaper.
|>
|> Paul
|>
|>
In addition:
The Lizards were even stupider than I originally thought. Their
plan assumed an initial conquest fleet, with no support for twenty
years. Even after twenty years, theire 'support' would consist
of a colony fleet, which might require more resources than it
can produce, at first.
In that situation, the conquest fleet has *got* to be able to
handle anything. So do its leaders.
Barry
p
Ken Finto
>> So far 3 books have been written in the series.
>
>Actually, all four books have been released, the fourth came out about a
>month ago.
Glad to hear that. I will have to start looking for it!
robohen
Personally, I think it is pretentious of Turtledove to put out a hardback
and expect us to buy it. If it was available in soft-cover now, I'd have
bought it, but because it is hard-cover, I've finished half of it today in
the store. I'll be finishing the next half tomm.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.961208...@viking.cris.com>,
Rob...@concentric.net says...
Oh, for...
What makes you think Harry had anything to say about it? It's the
PUBLISHER, not the author, who decides format!
--
For information on Lawrence Watt-Evans, finger -l lawr...@clark.net
The Misenchanted Page is at http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/
Last major update: 11/17/96
robohen
On 8 Dec 1996, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> >Personally, I think it is pretentious of Turtledove to put out a hardback
> >and expect us to buy it. If it was available in soft-cover now, I'd have
> >bought it, but because it is hard-cover, I've finished half of it today in
> >the store. I'll be finishing the next half tomm.
> Oh, for...
> What makes you think Harry had anything to say about it? It's the
> PUBLISHER, not the author, who decides format!
Well, the publisher or whoever could also have done a better job on the
cover art -- the faces look airbrushed and sloppy, the hands on the table
these surreal traingles. It would have had far more impact had the cover
looked more photorealistic. It just doesn't justify spending thrice the
amount for a paperback. There are enough bookstores in the Washington DC
area that I can just rotate stores and get away with it.
Steven H Silver
Eric Raveling wrote:
>
> ttel...@phoenix.net wrote:
> : The series is set in a world where the Confederacy won the Civil War. The
> : CSA is partnered with the Brits and the Rump USA is a co-belligerent with
> : Germany (not an ally).
>
> The same "world where the Confederacy won the Civil War" as Guns of the
> South? (Synopsis: time travelers give the South AK-47s & enough
> ammo to win the war. Shortly after the war the Confederate gov. finds
> the interloper's history books and abolishes slavery to partially repair
> the TL.)
For some reason this misconception refuses to die. The forthcoming
series, "Return Engagement", which will begin next Fall with the release
of _How Few Remain_ and will be comprised of six books has no relation
to _Guns of the South_. For more on Harry Turtledove, see my webpage at
Michael A. Fishman
robohen wrote:
> Personally, I think it is pretentious of Turtledove to put out a hardback
> and expect us to buy it. If it was available in soft-cover now, I'd have
> bought it, but because it is hard-cover, I've finished half of it today in
> the store. I'll be finishing the next half tomm.
A hardback, because of its durability, is put out for
(i) Library trade
(ii) Collectors
If you must went your spleen on something,
consider `trade paperbacks'. Which are no more
durable than regular paperbacks---and thus are
uselles for the purposes (i) & (ii) above.
They are unsightly if you put them among regular
paperbacks. Then you package your books for transport,
they are problematical. They're harder to read in bed.
Finally, they cost at least twice as much as regular
paperbacks.
----------------------------------------------------------
I suspect that if hamadryas baboons had nuclear
weapons, they would destroy the world in a week.
Edward O. Wilson
----------------------------------------------------------
Michael A. Fishman
> : > Turtledove.
>
> : CSA is partnered with the Brits and the Rump USA is a co-belligerent with
> : Germany (not an ally).
>
> The same "world where the Confederacy won the Civil War" as Guns of the
> South? (Synopsis: time travelers give the South AK-47s & enough
> ammo to win the war. Shortly after the war the Confederate gov. finds
> the interloper's history books and abolishes slavery to partially repair
> the TL.)
No. That's quite different world. Look it up on
Turtledove's home page
http://www.sfsite.com/~silverag/turtledove.html
Robert A. Woodward
In article <58g0il$n...@daily-planet.nodak.edu>, rave...@prairie.nodak.edu
(Eric Raveling) wrote:
> ttel...@phoenix.net wrote:
>
> : >
> : > Confusion with another six book future series about World War I by
> : > Turtledove.
>
>
> : The series is set in a world where the Confederacy won the Civil War. The
> : CSA is partnered with the Brits and the Rump USA is a co-belligerent with
> : Germany (not an ally).
>
> The same "world where the Confederacy won the Civil War" as Guns of the
> South? (Synopsis: time travelers give the South AK-47s & enough
> ammo to win the war. Shortly after the war the Confederate gov. finds
> the interloper's history books and abolishes slavery to partially repair
> the TL.)
Not the same world. In this one the Confederacy wins in 1862 (Lee's
invasion of Maryland goes a lot better because a courier didn't misplace a
copy of Lee's orders).
Vincent Archer
robohen (Rob...@concentric.net) wrote:
> Personally, I think it is pretentious of Turtledove to put out a hardback
> and expect us to buy it. If it was available in soft-cover now, I'd have
> bought it, but because it is hard-cover, I've finished half of it today in
> the store. I'll be finishing the next half tomm.
There are very few books I buy hardcover. Brin produce some of these, and
at a time, Alan Dean Foster produced some (but I've stopped reading him
since). Vernor Vinge would be one of them, except that I've never seen any
hardcover from him :)
Turtledove, as much as I like his works (and damn, still can't find any
Guns of the South), isn't one. Like you, I'm condemned to wait until mid
1997 for the conclusion to the above series...
--
Vincent ARCHER Email: arc...@frmug.org
Lawrence Watt-Evans
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.961208...@galileo.cris.com>,
Rob...@concentric.net says...
>
>On 8 Dec 1996, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>
>> >Personally, I think it is pretentious of Turtledove to put out a
hardback
>> >and expect us to buy it. If it was available in soft-cover now, I'd
have
>> >bought it, but because it is hard-cover, I've finished half of it today
in
>> >the store. I'll be finishing the next half tomm.
>> What makes you think Harry had anything to say about it? It's the
>> PUBLISHER, not the author, who decides format!
>
>Well, the publisher or whoever could also have done a better job on the
>cover art -- the faces look airbrushed and sloppy, the hands on the table
>these surreal traingles. It would have had far more impact had the cover
>looked more photorealistic. It just doesn't justify spending thrice the
>amount for a paperback. There are enough bookstores in the Washington DC
>area that I can just rotate stores and get away with it.
So tell 'em. They've got a website at http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey
where they invite feedback.
Don't blame the author for anything except the actual words in the book,
though.
Eric Raveling
ttel...@phoenix.net wrote:
: >
: > Confusion with another six book future series about World War I by
: > Turtledove.
: The series is set in a world where the Confederacy won the Civil War. The
: CSA is partnered with the Brits and the Rump USA is a co-belligerent with
: Germany (not an ally).
The same "world where the Confederacy won the Civil War" as Guns of the
South? (Synopsis: time travelers give the South AK-47s & enough
ammo to win the war. Shortly after the war the Confederate gov. finds
the interloper's history books and abolishes slavery to partially repair
the TL.)
- Eric.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
rave...@prairie.NoDak.edu
http://www.acm.ndsu.NoDak.edu/~raveling
When emailing me be sure to mention this post.
Ken Finto
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.961208...@viking.cris.com>, robohen <Rob...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>
>On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, Ken Finto wrote:
>
>> In article <32A574...@earthlink.net>, silv...@earthlink.net wrote:
>> >> So far 3 books have been written in the series.
>> >Actually, all four books have been released, the fourth came out about a
>> >month ago.
>> Glad to hear that. I will have to start looking for it!
>
>and expect us to buy it. If it was available in soft-cover now, I'd have
>bought it, but because it is hard-cover, I've finished half of it today in
>the store. I'll be finishing the next half tomm.
That or wait for the Science Fiction Book Club to list it....
Doug Hoff
Brian Griffin <laph...@whisky.edu> wrote in article
<58ciev$c...@nw101.infi.net>...
> di...@interaccess.com (Paul F. Dietz) inscribed this on cyberspace:
>
> {snip}
> >BTW, I don't understand why Atvar didn't just order Earth clobbered
> >with asteroids. He could have demolished cities at will with no risk
> >of radioactive fallout. At least some bafflegab explaining why this
> >wouldn't be feasible would have been useful.
>
> >I'm also surprised the Race didn't exploit biological warfare. After
> >all, there must be plenty of viruses and things that affect humans but
> >not lizards. Conservatism or lack of imagination, I suppose.
>
> >Finally, what are the Lizards doing conquering planets, anyway? If
> >they want real estate, space colonies offer much more surface area.
> >If they are worried about competitors, ballistic genocide is easier
> >and cheaper.
>
> I often wondered why the Lizards didn't use some sort of orbital
> kinetic weaponry......using smaller stuff on a tactical scale could
> have been a great help to them. But I can see one reason why they
> wouldn't have done a major strategic bombardment with asteroid-size
> things: climate change, long term changes that the lizards would find
> even less congenial than humans would. I doubt the little scaly
> devil's colonization fleet would have been very happy to arrive during
> a 'Little Ice Age'.
>
> I'd wag that making human-specific viruses would require all sorts of
> specialized equipment they wouldn't have brought......they were
> planning on assimilation, not genocide, after all. Obtaining and
> breeding existing biologicals probably never occurred to them....
Yes, gaping logical holes in the plotline. At the risk of being terminally
flip, the answer to all the above questions is: because they would have won
the war post-haste, and noone could get four Earth-Lizard open warfare
books out of it.
Frankly, when I picked up the first _Worldwar_ book and saw that the aliens
were four-foot high lizard men, I thought: COOL! Turtledove is going to use
early-SF type aliens for a book set in the '40s, but as I read on, I
discovered that the aliens invasion plans were made so damn illogical for
the sake of prolonging the plotline, my enthusiasm for the series dimmed.
I read on, however, hoping that it would come to a slam-bang finale, and
was sorely dissapointed.
OK, I can believe the the Lizards showing up underequipped because they
developed so slowly that they thought everyone did and figured we would
still be knights in armor. And the ginger addiction was downright
inspired, but them not dropping rocks on every major city (or at least
every factory which even looked capable of producing munitions) until we
gave up is beyond me. Also, it was never explained to my satisfaction why
the Lizards did all that ground-pounding when they could have annihilated
every armored formation from space.
For my money, one of the best invasion scenarios was _Footfall_ by Niven
and Pournelle. Their baby elephants could have mopped the floor with the
type of resistance that the foolish Earthlings were putting up in
_Worldwar_. We win only by cheating . . .
dh
Steven H Silver
M.D.B. wrote:
> I would desperately like Turtledove to write a followup to _Guns of
> the South_. How might the Confederacy make use of the library they
> captured? Not to mention the computer and and other equipment. Even
> if they can't duplicate it, knowing something is possible, and having
> an example to study, would be an enormous advantage.
Actually, Harry tackles this issue in an hard to find short story called
"Half the Battle". Check out my website:
http://www.sfsite.com/~silverag/turtledove.html for bibliographic
information.
Steven H Silver
Michael A. Fishman wrote:
> If you must went your spleen on something,
> consider `trade paperbacks'. Which are no more
> durable than regular paperbacks---and thus are
> uselles for the purposes (i) & (ii) above.
> They are unsightly if you put them among regular
> paperbacks. Then you package your books for transport,
> they are problematical. They're harder to read in bed.
> Finally, they cost at least twice as much as regular
> paperbacks.
Actually, trade paperbacks are generally made with a higher grade of
paper and better binding than mass market paperbacks. Some companies
issue better trades than others, for instance, Tor's trade paperbacks
are usually very good. Bantam needs to improve their cover stock.
William L Pora
OK, Ok Atvar acted like an idiot. So what would you do to conquer the
pesky Tosevites?
Remember you show up, the last intel you had was that they used clubs
and swords and shields and their science was only up as far as metal
working. Suddenly your getting primitive radio signals from this
planet. Satellites show air fields, large scale industry, huge cities
and a massive worldwide conflict underway. Nothing is as predicted.
The fleet has already settled into orbit, your troops are already
defrosting and you need to get them off ship soon. How do you proceed?
Oh you want me to go first? well ok. We destroy or seize the centers
of command and control. ie the capitals, or more specifically the
capitals of the most powerful counties (preferably when their leaders
are there) Who comes off worse in this? Probably the russians are hit
the worst due to their centralized controlled government. The germans
will reel but probably reform under a military government. The
americans will be badly shocked, but again probably reform under
martial law. I think we begin our invasion from there. We leave the
unindustrialized counties for later, and conserve our strength for
North America, Western Europe, and Western Russia. China-Japan at that
time don't pose enough of a threat, and besides don't trust each other.
In North America. It is vital to capture or wreck the manufacturing
centers. At that time the Iron belt (Michican, Ohio, Pennsylvania) of
the northern midwest. Also the secondary centers like Seattle (Boeing
aircraft), and the energy production centers in texas and louisiana.
In western europe, the higher density of the population will cause
greater casualties. The Ruhr valley and the English industrial
midlands must be decimated. The Suez canal must be bombed to cut the
flow of supplies from the east. Again the polesti refineries must be
hit, and the flow of oil from persia and the US must be halted, this
alone will cause more problems than anything else.
In russia. After moscow falls, the government must not be allowed to
reform. The oil production facilities in the south must be destroyed,
and the factories near the caucasus mountains hit. However more than
anywhere else the key is to create confusion with the command and
control aspect of government. If rival factions are born than so much
the better.
After the fall of these three regions the rest of the planet is simple
to conquer. Now holding on for twenty years while the other fleet
arrives is going to be harder. However without heavy arms (or
manufacturing) any resistance is limited to raids and sniping
Petri J Kokko
a018...@dlep1.itg.ti.com (Robert Posey) wrote:
>I would rather see a sequel when the Earth invades the The Race (Lizards)
>Home World. With the jump the captured tech. would give them, I would
>imagine that the invasion fleet could be launched by the year 2000.
Aren't there any sympathisers for the Race? We truly are barbarians... :-)
I think Harry Turtledove made a realistic end in 'Striking The Balance'.
After all, both the Race and the humans have now nuclear weapons and
the capability of destroying each other. That would argue strongly for
a "peace of mutual fear" just like between the soviets and the americans
during the cold war. And as for a stylistic viewpoint, there already
is too much of the humanity-beats-impossible-odds-and-slays-the-
bug-eyed-alien-monsters-crap... (Very believable, sure). I liked the
fact that there was no "good guys vs. bad guys" syndrome, not counting
the "Skorzeny tries to nuke Lodz" chapter which was totally out of
character for Skorzeny, and, IMO unnecessary and bad for the story
line.
So, what happens next? It wasn't said very clearly, but I was under
the impression that the Race got North Africa (even whole of Africa?),
Australia, and South America. The South America was mentioned passingly
in a strategic discussion between Atvar and Kirel in the earlier books
as a place "where everything proceeded as planned". And then there was
the buffer zone between the Russians and the Germans.
I have the opinion that the Race has come to stay and will hold
to its partial conquest although I wouldn't bet on the future of
the European pocket. Germany and Soviet Union had a score to
settle, after all. If the Race can hold on its technological
superiority to the arrival of the colonisation fleet, I think it
has made it safe. 200 million loyal citizens are a good asset to
any power.
The Race was a slow learner and could not adjust very good to
changing situations, but was this _because_ they had such a
stable and stagnant culture for so long? The lizards in the
conquest fleet did change ('corrupt' they would say...) to
cope with the quick and aggressive Big Uglies. In the first book
there was a note about manuals refering to playing on politics
of disunity. Perhaps the Race was not always that slow and could
change again. At least there is the sociopolitical pressure from
the humans who probably will try to use the Race in their moves
against other human nations.
As for the humans mounting a counter strike against Home. Well,
we really are not _that_ good in long range planning. What was
it, 14 light years? I remember something about having to wait
"28 Home years for a message arriving at Home". That would be
28 years assuming the 0.5 c technology of the Race. Now, _what_
kind of a politic would start a project that would go beyond
the next election? And even beyond the election after that, and
after that, and... No, I really can not imagine humanity going
to stars unless they can get there in a reasonable time. And
humans could not even use the cold sleep. (Ok, it wasn't said
so in Turtledove's world, but I am assuming it to be an alternative
timeline with the same natural laws.)
So, the humans can not get to Home without FTL-transfer which
would be in far, far future, or even outright impossible. The
lizards however could, and probably would reinforce their half
of Earth with other colonists. However, assuming no major
technological advancements without it also being available to
the other side, there would be a balance of power so long as
both sides could wipe each other off.
But now it would get interesting: The Race on Earth and humans
would interact, trade, and most importantly exchange ideas.
Some colonists would probably travel back Home, and bring those
ideas with them (some probably with enough seeds for a ginger
farm...) Imagine a population of energetic, curious, and meddling
lizards back Home. They would surely give a boost to the Race.
Or wreck it. And humans would probably benefit from the Race's
perfectionism, e.g. "We invent, you make it safe."
It could also be, that the "original" Race back Home considers
Earth a corruptive and dangerous threat that must be eliminated.
This would give a very interesting choice for the Earthern lizards:
What exactly would be their "Home"? An empire 14 light years away
that considers them to have turned back to barbarians, corrupt, and
a threat to their stable society? Or the planet where they have
settled and for some even a place where they have born? Perhaps
the lizards on Earth and the humans would form an alliance against
a common threat? Now, there's a possibility...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
(_)-Q- , |/ Q Q Petri...@icl.fi
J_Q_/\/z/ J\()/</<()
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <32A5B3...@convex.com>, Peter Cash <ca...@convex.com> wrote:
>Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
>
>> Is there any reason why humans didn't use powdered ginger bombs?
>> (I've only read up to the third book, but I don't care about spoilers
>> for the fourth.)
>
>How would you like to be opposite a line of Lizard soldiery when that
>ginger cloud drifts over to them? Remember what happened to the NKVD
If soldiers got to do what they liked, most of them would probably
go home.
And the individual chance of survival might still be higher than if
the Lizards are completely compos mentis. The first attack would be
hell, but the depressive phase afterwards would make the Lizards
easy to capture or kill.
As for avoiding that first crazed charge, you might want to use
rocket launchers or somesuch and take advantage of the wind rather
than, say, ginger hand grenades.
>interrogator when he let the subservient Lizard informant and Ulhaas
>have a sniff?
No, but I get the idea. However, that presumably involved unprepared
humans at hand-to-hand range.
I don't know if you'd have interesting situations where it's hard to
build up sufficient ginger supplies for effective bombs (how much
ginger would that take, anyway?) because addicted Lizards keep
attacking the warehouses.
>Well, I suppose a ginger bomb could be used to goad Lizards to attack
>when it wasn't to their advantage...
>
Yep--or move forward to breathe the cloud because it makes them feel
good.......
Also, once a Lizard is addicted to ginger, he's *permanently* less
capable. And look on the bright side--this is a chemical weapon to
which your own side is naturally and completely immune. It's got
to be good for something.
--
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
October '96 calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
robohen
On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
> >Personally, I think it is pretentious of Turtledove to put out a hardback
> >and expect us to buy it. If it was available in soft-cover now, I'd have
> >bought it, but because it is hard-cover, I've finished half of it today in
> >the store. I'll be finishing the next half tomm.
> Do you actually know so little of how books are written and published
> that you thing that Harry Turtledove had anything at all to do with
> how his novel is published?
My mother is a writer, and yes, she had say in whether it should be
hard/soft-cover, or the choice of cover art. I've helped her choose cover
art. Granted, the books were published in Japan, so the system might be
different in this country.
> And as far as I am concerned, you are morally a thief, for having read
> what neither you nor anyone else have paid for.
I assure you the book store chains have made plenty of money off of me
for their $3 brownies and cappuccinos. Capitalism works. In fact, I
think I might just cancel a magazine subscription to Soldier of Fortune --
I can read it in the store already.
Bill McKinley
Robert A. Woodward wrote:
>
> I don't believe Skorzeny was ever tried for a war crime (pulling off
> miracles for Adolph doesn't qualify). The story I heard about Skorzeny at
> Malmedy was that he grabbed a whole bunch of American POWs (who were under
> a significant threat of being murdered) and personally escorted them to a
> POW camp.
>
As I recall, Skorzeny's American uniform clad Germans caused chaos
in the American rear by redirecting traffic and generally creating
havoc. The chaos was only increased by jittery Americans, who ended
up holding their compatriots up at gunpoint if they couldn't remember
who won the world series or couldn't say "wishing well" convincingly
enough.
Skorzeny survived the war, wrote his memoirs, and ended up running
a prosperous cement business in Argentina (I'm not kidding).
Bill McKinley
--
The views expressed here are mine, and are not those of the
Australian Government.
Peter H. Granzeau
On Sun, 8 Dec 1996 01:26:13 -0500, robohen <Rob...@concentric.net>
wrote:
>Personally, I think it is pretentious of Turtledove to put out a hardback
>and expect us to buy it. If it was available in soft-cover now, I'd have
>bought it, but because it is hard-cover, I've finished half of it today in
>the store. I'll be finishing the next half tomm.
Do you actually know so little of how books are written and published
that you thing that Harry Turtledove had anything at all to do with
how his novel is published?
And as far as I am concerned, you are morally a thief, for having read
Andrew Plotkin
Peter H. Granzeau (p...@exis.net) wrote:
> And as far as I am concerned, you are morally a thief, for having read
> what neither you nor anyone else have paid for.
Bookstores don't mind when I read books there (at least, not the ones I
go to.) I've never heard anyone complain about it, there or on this
newsgroup.
I try not to pick my nose with the same hand that turns the pages.
If two people read a library book, which has only been paid for once, is
that equally theft?
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Barry DeCicco
|> >
|> >> Is there any reason why humans didn't use powdered ginger bombs?
|> >> (I've only read up to the third book, but I don't care about spoilers
|> >> for the fourth.)
|> >
|> >How would you like to be opposite a line of Lizard soldiery when that
|> >ginger cloud drifts over to them? Remember what happened to the NKVD
That jwould be a reasonable situation - a bunch of enemies who think
that they are invulnerable and omnipotent. It would be scary, at
first, but better than facing enemies who are thinking.
In the book I read, I saw at least one example of a lizard not
using ginger just before combat, specifically because it would make
him far more confident than competant.
Barry
p
Dave Roy
>robohen (Rob...@concentric.net) wrote:
>> Personally, I think it is pretentious of Turtledove to put out a hardback
>> and expect us to buy it. If it was available in soft-cover now, I'd have
>> bought it, but because it is hard-cover, I've finished half of it today in
>> the store. I'll be finishing the next half tomm.
I'm wondering why you consider this pretentious. Do you dislike the
hardcover format totally, or is it something against Turtledove? In
other words, why shouldn't Turtledove put his books out in hardcover
first, when most others do the same?
I guess I can see your point, except for the word pretentious. Maybe
I'm missing something.
Dave Roy
Bill McKinley
Doug Hoff wrote:
> For my money, one of the best invasion scenarios was _Footfall_ by Niven
> and Pournelle. Their baby elephants could have mopped the floor with the
> type of resistance that the foolish Earthlings were putting up in
> _Worldwar_. We win only by cheating . . .
Yes, but what an inspired ending! IMHO, Footfall could have done with
a serious edit (I personally think it was about 1/3 too long) but
the Archangel Michael made it worthwhile.
Bill
John W Bragg
In article <58h6ue$d...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com> wp...@ix.netcom.com(William L Pora) writes:
>
>
>OK, Ok Atvar acted like an idiot. So what would you do to conquer the
>pesky Tosevites?
>
>Remember you show up, the last intel you had was that they used clubs
>and swords and shields and their science was only up as far as metal
>working. Suddenly your getting primitive radio signals from this
>planet. Satellites show air fields, large scale industry, huge cities
>and a massive worldwide conflict underway. Nothing is as predicted.
>The fleet has already settled into orbit, your troops are already
>defrosting and you need to get them off ship soon. How do you proceed?
Well, hitting Tokyo, Berlin, Moscow, Washington and London with everything
is a priority. Create that old leadership vacuum.
Politically: AMerica still has a lot of Governors, and most of the
military structure, and either a few or a lot of stray Congressmen,
depending on whether they were in session. In this sort of
situation, I'd say that a quorum of governors could appoint
a pretty legitimate provisional government.
The Soviets are pretty far up a creek. There's still local
authority, but no coordinating structure, and no trust
or history of cooperation.
Japan's political instability comes in handy, as the military
factions just form another government anyway.
Germany, losing Hitler and most of the leadership, probably
gets a military takeover, just because the generals can
trust each other more than any other network can.
Britain, losing London to aliens at this point, that might be
enough to finish them as a Power. Edward VIII might come back
from Spain, but I don't know how much that would help.
ACtually, in view of the great crisis, Edward VIII, a
reputed FAscist sympathizer, signs a peace with the
German High Command and an alliance against the Lizards
and maybe against the Communists too.
On the economic warfare front, you have to hit the Ruhr, Detroit,
Ohio, and western Pennsylvania. If you have air power, you
can leave the cities alone, just destroy the railroad networks
and the modern cities starve in weeks if not days. Not to
mention what it does to armies in the field along the
Eastern Front. ACtually, this priority is even higher
than hitting the war-materiel factories. Without
transportation, those trucks and tanks can't defend
anything but the cities they're built in, and without
more steel, they can't build any more of them. And
without food, those cities are graveyards.
I'm from New York, and I can imagine what an air campaign
could do. First hit the bridges, and Manhattan and
Brooklyn/Queens/Long Island are cut off from the mainland and
from each other. Bomb the tunnel entrances regularly,
see about depth charges on the tunnels. And destroy
anything on the water. EVen in the days of Victory
GArdens, that's gotta smart.
--Bragg
Elisabeth Carey
robohen wrote:
>
> On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
>
> > >Personally, I think it is pretentious of Turtledove to put out a hardback
> > >and expect us to buy it. If it was available in soft-cover now, I'd have
> > >bought it, but because it is hard-cover, I've finished half of it today in
> > >the store. I'll be finishing the next half tomm.
> > that you thing that Harry Turtledove had anything at all to do with
> > how his novel is published?
>
> hard/soft-cover, or the choice of cover art. I've helped her choose cover
> art. Granted, the books were published in Japan, so the system might be
> different in this country.
Yes, very different, at least in fiction publishing. You don't say what
your mother writes, so comparisons get a little difficult, given that
"normal practice" varies from one segment of the industry to another, as
well as from one country to another.
Fiction writers in this country don't have much say about anything
beyond the text itself unless they are guaranteed bestsellers with a
strong track record. The major publishers rightly believe that the
average fiction write doesn't know diddly about *marketing* their books,
and hardcover/softcover decisions, as well as cover art, fall firmly on
the marketing side of the business.
Lis Carey
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <32AD5B...@worldnet.att.net>,
Elisabeth Carey <lis....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>Fiction writers in this country don't have much say about anything
>beyond the text itself unless they are guaranteed bestsellers with a
>strong track record. The major publishers rightly believe that the
>average fiction write doesn't know diddly about *marketing* their books,
>and hardcover/softcover decisions, as well as cover art, fall firmly on
>the marketing side of the business.
>
Robert Posey
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.96120...@galileo.cris.com>,
Rob...@concentric.net says...
>
>> And as far as I am concerned, you are morally a thief, for having read
>> what neither you nor anyone else have paid for.
>
>for their $3 brownies and cappuccinos. Capitalism works. In fact, I
>think I might just cancel a magazine subscription to Soldier of Fortune --
>I can read it in the store already.
>
book completly in the store you are stealing both from the store and
the author etc. Even if the store is okay with this, it is still stealing
from the author. It is the same as copying software illegally.
Robert Posey
>
Erich Schneider
>>I assure you the book store chains have made plenty of money off of me
>>for their $3 brownies and cappuccinos. Capitalism works. In fact, I
>>think I might just cancel a magazine subscription to Soldier of Fortune --
>>I can read it in the store already.
>>
>It doesn't matter how much they have made off of you. If you read the
>book completly in the store you are stealing both from the store and
>the author etc. Even if the store is okay with this, it is still stealing
>from the author. It is the same as copying software illegally.
Imagine, if you will, how copyright law and intellectual property
would work among a species with near-instantaneous telepathy and
eidetic memories.
That's sort of what we, as possessors of both the Internet and large
disk drives, are turning into.
--
Erich Schneider er...@bush.cs.tamu.edu http://bush.cs.tamu.edu/~erich
"Today/Yes Winners/Yes Losers/Yes In the Zone/Yes Tomorrow/No"
- Walter Jon Williams, _HardWired_
William L Pora
Here's another what-if. The invasion of tosev-3 is delayed for 50
years due to problems at home and the lizards don't get to tosev-3
until 1991. How would the lizard equipment fair versus our weapons of
this time period? Would the lizards go to nukes faster? Would we go
to nukes as fast? Could lizards killercraft compete with F-16s, or
Su-27s? Could lizard tanks and transporters rate with M-1s and T-74s?
What would the lizards think of the UN? Would the third world succumb
as a block to the lizards to avoid the threat of war?
How would the US come out of such a war. More powerful? Less?
James Walter Frusetta
Bill McKinley (bill.m...@dpie.gov.au) wrote:
: Robert A. Woodward wrote:
: >
: > I don't believe Skorzeny was ever tried for a war crime (pulling off
: > miracles for Adolph doesn't qualify). The story I heard about Skorzeny at
: > Malmedy was that he grabbed a whole bunch of American POWs (who were under
: > a significant threat of being murdered) and personally escorted them to a
: > POW camp.
: >
: As I recall, Skorzeny's American uniform clad Germans caused chaos
: in the American rear by redirecting traffic and generally creating
: havoc. The chaos was only increased by jittery Americans, who ended
: up holding their compatriots up at gunpoint if they couldn't remember
: who won the world series or couldn't say "wishing well" convincingly
: enough.
Just a question out of curiousity: were these SS troops or Brandenburg
Kommando? I know the US had a policy to shoot German troops captured in US
uniforms as spies later in the war, in part inspired because the
Brandenburgers were so effective.
What's the truth to the allegations that Skorzeny assented to shooting US
prisoners to speed up the advance? I'd seen allegations, but I don't
believe he was tried for them.
(Sorry; my knowledge of Battle of the Bulge is eclectic at best...)
==========================================================================
James Frusetta gera...@wam.umd.edu
Department of History University of Maryland, College Park
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~gerakkag
==========================================================================
robohen
On 10 Dec 1996, Robert Posey wrote:
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.96120...@galileo.cris.com>,
> Rob...@concentric.net says...
> >> And as far as I am concerned, you are morally a thief, for having read
> >> what neither you nor anyone else have paid for.
> >I assure you the book store chains have made plenty of money off of me
> >for their $3 brownies and cappuccinos. Capitalism works. In fact, I
> >think I might just cancel a magazine subscription to Soldier of Fortune --
> >I can read it in the store already.
> It doesn't matter how much they have made off of you. If you read the
> book completly in the store you are stealing both from the store and
> the author etc. Even if the store is okay with this, it is still stealing
> from the author. It is the same as copying software illegally.
No, because the book still belongs to the store. There are laws against
reproducing copyrighted documents, but no laws telling us what we can or
can't read. Granted, there are laws forbidding people from reading
underage pornography, but I don't think Turtledove's works qualify as
such.
If reading books is a crime, it should be illegal to read books at the
library. How a book store chooses to manage its property is its business.
I would just as soon prefer that publishing become a more competitive
business -- why pay to line the pockets of slimy publishing kingpins?
pmccu...@aol.com
bdec...@sunm4048at.sph.umich.edu (Barry DeCicco) wrote:
<a lot snipped>
>In addition:
>
>The Lizards were even stupider than I originally thought. Their
>plan assumed an initial conquest fleet, with no support for twenty
>years. Even after twenty years, theire 'support' would consist
>of a colony fleet, which might require more resources than it
>can produce, at first.
>
>In that situation, the conquest fleet has *got* to be able to
>handle anything. So do its leaders.
I have to confess that I haven't really been following this thread. And I
also have to confess that I never finished the series -- partway through
book 3, I got a bit bored with it. I wish that it had been a bit more,
uh, compact.
However, in any invasion from interesteller space scenario, you have to 1)
give the aliens a Big Alien Weakness (tm) ala ID4 or _The War of the
Worlds_, 2) make the aliens dumb -- slow thinkers who are amazed that
anybody could develop so rapidly as us humans, or 3) radically undestimate
the level of technological sophistication needed reach us in the first
place. So far as I can tell, Turtledove did all three, but relied a great
deal on 2).
The reason you have to do one of these three things is that aliens who are
as smart as us and who have the capacity to travel between stars in large
numbers, even at sublight speeds, WIN. After all, we are talking about a
militarily useful technology gap signficantly greater than the gap between
the natives and the European invaders into the Western Hemisphere. Greg
Bear almost got this right in _The Forge of God_. The right ending is: we
lose. Everybody dies. But for whatever reason, that ending ain't
popular.
________________________
Pete McCutchen
Peter Cash
James Walter Frusetta wrote:
> What's the truth to the allegations that Skorzeny assented to shooting US
> prisoners to speed up the advance? I'd seen allegations, but I don't
> believe he was tried for them.
Well, since this has been a common practice in all armies of the world,
I don't think that Skorzeny or any high-level commander would have been
specifically consulted. In general, an advancing unit--especially one
launching such a desperate attack as the Ardennes offensive--often does
not have time or resources to deal with prisoners of war. If a noncom
decides that his squad can't afford to guard some enemy soldiers who
have surrendered, he's likely to order their execution without asking
permission (asking permission just means you create a record of what
you've done). It's not nice, but it happens.
See, for example, the classic book COMPANY COMMANDER (I'm sorry, but I
don't remember the author). This is an autobiographical account of an
American Army captain who fought against the Germans in France and
Germany in WWII. The author mentions at least two instances in which his
unit shot German POWs because they were an encumbrance. In both
instances, the decision was made by noncoms, and the Captain does not
comment on these incidents other than to mention that they occurred.
There is no indication of disciplinary action having been taken, or that
these incidents were in any way out of the ordinary.
Usually, a POW is fairly safe once he makes it to the rear areas, where
soldiers aren't keyed up to battle pitch, and where a sudden emergency
isn't as likely to cause him to be seen as a serious inconvenience. It
_would_ be unusual and a clear instance of a war crime if a senior
officer ordered a large batch of POWs in a rear area to be shot. (And I
believe that such massacres were perpetrated by the Germans in one or
two instances. If such actions were taken by Allied units, they did not
record it when they wrote the histories.)
The situation was completely different on the Eastern front, of course,
where few civilized rules were observed by either side.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.
(apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
robohen
On 10 Dec 1996, William L Pora wrote:
> Here's another what-if. The invasion of tosev-3 is delayed for 50
> years due to problems at home and the lizards don't get to tosev-3
> until 1991. How would the lizard equipment fair versus our weapons of
> this time period? Would the lizards go to nukes faster? Would we go
> to nukes as fast? Could lizards killercraft compete with F-16s, or
> Su-27s? Could lizard tanks and transporters rate with M-1s and T-74s?
It doesn't sound like their spaceships have any protections against
nuclear missiles, so I'd say their invasion fleet would be blasted into
smithereens from early on. Our industrial capacity would incur greater
damage from EMP blasts though.
James Walter Frusetta
Barry wrote:
: Wearing an enemy uniform makes one a spy, and forfeits the protection
: of the 'laws of war'. Some or all of those german soldiers captured in
: US uniforms were shot. Some of them claimed that they hadn't fought (yet)
: in those uniforms, and that they planned to change into their German uniforms
: before doing so. This was given little or no weight.
: In the usual "US soldiers-disguised-as-Germans-on-special-mission-in-Germany"
: movies, the usual assumption is that the heroes would be lucky to be
: immediately shot upon capture, the alternative being to be handed over
: the Gestapo as captured spies. I can't recall any book or movie wherein
: this assumption was not made.
I think my ire is a result of the fact that the inevitable US movies
portray the US performing the action as heroes, and the US treatment of
the Germans doing the same act was as inflitrators who could be shot out
of hand. But, of course, the US was _allowed_ to do this while the Filthy
Huns were evil bastards and <sob> our poor boys <sniff> would be gunned
down in cold blood. ('Course, there was plenty of evil going on in the
Nazi Reich, but my point is the treatment in such movies as all Germans
= Evil, all Americans = good. But hey -- if I wanted accurate treatment,
why am I watching movies? :)
I've never seen a movie where they point out that, sure, the
Gestapo was going to shoot the Americans but _so would American MPs if
Germans were captured in the same instance._ Ergo, the Americans are
meeting an internationally just fate rather than cut down in their prime
by the Forces of Evil.
_Eagle has Landed_ might be an exception, but I haven't seen it in years.
BTW, I'm not attempting to defend the sundry war crimes the Germans did
perform -- but point out that, yes, there were crimes on the Allied side
that are underreported even considering that there _were_ fewer. (The
shooting of snipers is another example; I've heard of several cases in
Sicily and Italy where exasperated infantrymen shot captured snipers out
of hand, and were never prosecuted.) Also interesting that certain items
which might be considered morally dodgey, like the attempted British
assassination of Rommel, aren't mentioned in the mainstream. Not
necessarily surprising, though.
James Frusetta
: p
--
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet
nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>In article <32AD5B...@worldnet.att.net>,
>Elisabeth Carey <lis....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>Fiction writers in this country don't have much say about anything
>>beyond the text itself unless they are guaranteed bestsellers with a
>>strong track record. The major publishers rightly believe that the
>>average fiction write doesn't know diddly about *marketing* their books,
>>and hardcover/softcover decisions, as well as cover art, fall firmly on
>>the marketing side of the business.
>>
>Is the title of the book considered text or marketing?
Marketing, definitely. I still remember sitting around with other
Liavek contributors at three in the morning. We had wanted to call
volume IV "POINTS OF DEPARTURE," but the publisher requested
"something perkier." "Perkier"? The titles of my first two books
sounded vaguely like those of existing or forthcoming books by Robin
McKinley, so I was asked to change them. (That didn't bother me.)
I've got an advance proof of Susan Palwick's FLYING IN PLACE that's
called CHAMBERS OF THE BLOOD, a very fine title, but it sounded too
much like a horror novel, which FiP is, in the classic sense anyway,
not. Most authors have stories of changes in title, ranging from the
reasonable to the grotesque. My experience is that if a publisher has
taken against a particular title, you are out of luck, but you can
usually persuade them against the first alternative they have thought
of. Sometimes I suspect them of deliberately choosing dreadful
alternatives to make the writer do the work of finding a replacement.
There's a nice bit in THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER in which Gene Wolfe
envisions a publisher's changing the titles that would make
THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN to come out like so: THE SHADOW OF THE
TORTURER, THE CLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR, PLANET-BREAKER, THE CITADEL OF
THE AUTARCH.
Authors get more say about the title than about the cover, possibly
because it's made of words, about which we are deemed to know, but it's
definitely on the marketing side of the line when there's any doubt.
--
"Moreover, fantasticality does a good deal better than
sham psychology." -- Virginia Woolf
-----------------------------------------------------------
Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet pd...@ddb.com
Steve Hix
In article 8...@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu, gera...@wam.umd.edu (James Walter Frusetta) writes:
> Bill McKinley (bill.m...@dpie.gov.au) wrote:
> : Robert A. Woodward wrote:
> : >
> : > I don't believe Skorzeny was ever tried for a war crime (pulling off
> : > miracles for Adolph doesn't qualify). The story I heard about Skorzeny at
> : > Malmedy was that he grabbed a whole bunch of American POWs (who were under
> : > a significant threat of being murdered) and personally escorted them to a
> : > POW camp.
> : >
>
> : As I recall, Skorzeny's American uniform clad Germans caused chaos
> : in the American rear by redirecting traffic and generally creating
> : havoc. The chaos was only increased by jittery Americans, who ended
> : up holding their compatriots up at gunpoint if they couldn't remember
> : who won the world series or couldn't say "wishing well" convincingly
> : enough.
>
> Just a question out of curiousity: were these SS troops or Brandenburg
> Kommando? I know the US had a policy to shoot German troops captured in US
> uniforms as spies later in the war, in part inspired because the
> Brandenburgers were so effective.
>
> prisoners to speed up the advance? I'd seen allegations, but I don't
> believe he was tried for them.
That sounds more like (Jochen?) Peiper's decision.
Doug Hoff
Bill McKinley <bill.m...@dpie.gov.au> wrote in article
<32ADBA...@dpie.gov.au>...
> Doug Hoff wrote:
>
> > For my money, one of the best invasion scenarios was _Footfall_ by
Niven
> > and Pournelle. Their baby elephants could have mopped the floor with
the
> > type of resistance that the foolish Earthlings were putting up in
> > _Worldwar_. We win only by cheating . . .
>
> Yes, but what an inspired ending! IMHO, Footfall could have done with
> a serious edit (I personally think it was about 1/3 too long) but
> the Archangel Michael made it worthwhile.
Oh, yeah! That ending was _great_! A flying battleship, powered by nukes,
fixin to ram the aliens all to hell! Darned if I could put the thing down
once _Michael_ was in the air!
I am inclined to agree re: the edit, tho.
dh
Barry DeCicco
In article <32b0c255...@news.mindspring.com>, eq...@mindspring.com (M.D.B.) writes:
|> On 10 Dec 1996 18:32:45 GMT, wp...@ix.netcom.com(William L Pora)
|> wrote:
|>
|> >
|> >Here's another what-if. The invasion of tosev-3 is delayed for 50
|> >years due to problems at home and the lizards don't get to tosev-3
|> >until 1991. How would the lizard equipment fair versus our weapons of
|> >this time period? Would the lizards go to nukes faster? Would we go
|> >to nukes as fast? Could lizards killercraft compete with F-16s, or
|> >Su-27s? Could lizard tanks and transporters rate with M-1s and T-74s?
|> >
|> >as a block to the lizards to avoid the threat of war?
|> >
|> >How would the US come out of such a war. More powerful? Less?
|>
|>
|>
|> 1. The Lizards would see the improved military capability but attack
|> anyway, just because that's what they're here to do.
|>
|> 2. The Lizard military equipment might be on par with modern human
|> equipment, but remember they have a strictly limited amount to work
|> with. Put that up against human production capability, as well as
|> all the tanks, aircraft, etc around the world and they wouldn't have a
|> chance.
|>
|> 3. I think they'd use nukes as soon as the realized they couldn't win
|> conventionally. How soon this would be depends on how bright the
|> Lizard commanders are. Remember, they haven't experienced a loss yet
|> and the idea may be very alien (no pun intended) to them.
|>
IIRC, they used EMP bursts immiediately, in the series. This
would probably hurt us quite a bit. Some military stuff
might survive (we'd get a chance to test the contractors' claims).
However, I don't know how hardened most of our stuff is (like
tanks, planes, etc.). Also, the production equipment would be
immediately trashed. Having the majority of the electronic
equipment in the US turned to junk would probably eliminate almost
all production, and put us into immediate survival mode.
At best, we'd be running on stockpiles, as would the Lizards.
In 1943, the world was seriously geared for war. Now, I don't
think that we could increase production that much, in a short
time (like a year or two).
|> 4. The third world might produce it's fair share of Quislings, but
|> overall I think you'd see an awful lot of international cooperation to
|> get infanrty, and man portable ant-tank and ant-aircraft weapons to
|> the local partisans. Remember, there's always an "us" and a "them".
|> When "them" is 4 foot Lizards from the sky, it's easier to include
|> all of humanity as "us".
There would be a lot of third world countries wh might jump at a chance
to join the Lizards. They would see it as joining an outsider against
their enemies.
|>
|> 5. Assuming the Lizards used nukes agains industrial targets and
|> poplulation centers, undoubtedly the US would come out of it severely
|> crippled militarily. If the US took a major role defeating the
|> Lizards our international prestige would probably be at an all time
|> high. As for rebuilding, the US economy is relatively decentralized.
Hit the hundred biggest metropolitan areas with an airburst or two
apiece, and I think that the US would be crippled for decades.
Decentralized isn't an accurate word for some things.
Barrry
p
Quo vadis ?
Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
>
> On 10 Dec 1996 06:59:55 GMT, jbr...@mason2.gmu.edu (John W Bragg)
> wrote:
>
> >Britain, losing London to aliens at this point, that might be
> >enough to finish them as a Power. Edward VIII might come back
> >from Spain, but I don't know how much that would help.
> >ACtually, in view of the great crisis, Edward VIII, a
> >reputed FAscist sympathizer, signs a peace with the
> >German High Command and an alliance against the Lizards
> >and maybe against the Communists too.
>
> walk downstairs at the same time (if he had been able to think with
> anything other than his gonads, he still would have been King in
> 1943). Thankfully, UK government was completely in the hands of
> Commons at that point; SOMEONE with some brains would have survived,
> told Bertie what to do (if he hadn't been vaporized when London got
> it), and a new Parliament would have been called. Some people who had
> been back benchers or HM loyal opposition might have to form the next
> government, but I have faith that they would have muddled through.
test
Devin Clancy
In article <58kacd$h...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>
wp...@ix.netcom.com(William L Pora) writes:
>
>Here's another what-if. The invasion of tosev-3 is delayed for 50
>years due to problems at home and the lizards don't get to tosev-3
>until 1991. How would the lizard equipment fair versus our weapons of
90's. With a few exceptions (interstellar travel, aircraft carriers in low orb
it and no stealth technology) so I figure Earth might be at an advantage here
based on our expertise in war.
A smart commander might scrap invasion plans a try to "come in peace" then
maybe drop a few nukes after lulling the Earth into complacency. But the
Lizards were hardly that innovative.
-Devin Clancy
Scott Koch
William L Pora wrote:
>
> Here's another what-if. The invasion of tosev-3 is delayed for 50
> years due to problems at home and the lizards don't get to tosev-3
> until 1991. How would the lizard equipment fair versus our weapons of
> to nukes as fast? Could lizards killercraft compete with F-16s, or
> Su-27s? Could lizard tanks and transporters rate with M-1s and T-74s?
I my opinion the craft of the race was only about 20 to 30 years ahead
of our curent craft. I think the race would have had it easier at the
begining. The first thing the Race did was EMP's across the planet.
That would have crippled us and any other world power. If the race hit
hard and fast the U.S. would have been knocked out for a year maybe 2
until we rebuilt and sheilded our weapons of war. after that we
problebity demoliished them.
When I read the books I see the Killercraft as f-111's speed and some
mariblity. but our planes would be more agile.
>
Would the third world succumb as a block to the lizards to avoid the
threat of war?
Yup.
>
> How would the US come out of such a war. More powerful? Less?
Much less powerful if at all.
That is if the Race invade. I think if they see the amount a Nukes we
had I don't think they would have tried.
Maureen S. O'Brien
While we're talking about Edward VIII, what did Frederick von Papen
do in the war against the Lizards? I don't remember seeing him.
I've never been able to figure that diplomat out. On the one hand, a
guy clueless enough to leave check stubs with his spies' names on them
for the Allies to capture. But OTOH, he also withdrew money from the
bribe fund Hitler gave him, and gave it to Roncalli (the future John
XXIII) to help Jewish refugees. A guy I wouldn't trust to walk across
the street without getting hit, and he was survived working in both
the Kaiser and Hitler's government and lived to a ripe old age.
He deserved to play himself on Hogan's Heroes. What more can I say? :)
a bunch of money from his
Peter H. Granzeau
Robert Pearlman
On 10 Dec 1996 17:19:50 GMT, gera...@wam.umd.edu (James Walter
Frusetta) wrote:
>Barry wrote:
>: Wearing an enemy uniform makes one a spy, and forfeits the protection
>: of the 'laws of war'. Some or all of those german soldiers captured in
>: US uniforms were shot. Some of them claimed that they hadn't fought (yet)
>: in those uniforms, and that they planned to change into their German uniforms
>: before doing so. This was given little or no weight.
>: In the usual "US soldiers-disguised-as-Germans-on-special-mission-in-Germany"
>: movies, the usual assumption is that the heroes would be lucky to be
>: immediately shot upon capture, the alternative being to be handed over
>: the Gestapo as captured spies. I can't recall any book or movie wherein
>: this assumption was not made.
>I think my ire is a result of the fact that the inevitable US movies
>portray the US performing the action as heroes, and the US treatment of
>the Germans doing the same act was as inflitrators who could be shot out
>of hand. But, of course, the US was _allowed_ to do this while the Filthy
>Huns were evil bastards and <sob> our poor boys <sniff> would be gunned
>down in cold blood.
[snip to end]
You are describing an accurate portrayal of reality. Why does it
anger you?
Robert Pearlman
Patrick Gavin
> It doesn't matter how much they have made off of you. If you read the
> book completly in the store you are stealing both from the store and
> the author etc. Even if the store is okay with this, it is still stealing
> from the author. It is the same as copying software illegally.
How does reading the book in the store differ from reading the book from a
library or borrowing it from a friend? Either way, someone is paying for
it eventually, but more than one person is reading it. In fact, I think
it could be more forcefully argued that you are instead stealing from the
owner of the book, who had no say about whether you may read his copy of
the information contained therein.
--
This message was sent from a locally-networked Macintosh. Yale University takes no responsibility for its contents.
David Johnson
Steven H Silver <silv...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Eric Raveling wrote:
>>
>> ttel...@phoenix.net wrote:
>
>> : The series is set in a world where the Confederacy won the Civil War. The
>> : CSA is partnered with the Brits and the Rump USA is a co-belligerent with
>> : Germany (not an ally).
>>
>> The same "world where the Confederacy won the Civil War" as Guns of the
>> South? (Synopsis: time travelers give the South AK-47s & enough
>> ammo to win the war. Shortly after the war the Confederate gov. finds
>> the interloper's history books and abolishes slavery to partially repair
>> the TL.)
>
>For some reason this misconception refuses to die.
I think it's that Turtledove book BIP has been saying will come out
called "Guns of the West" -- combined with the rather skimpy info on
the other series -- that's created this impression. Certainly, if all
one hears is that Turtledove's got a book (or series) coming out set
in a world where the CSA survived, the first guess you're going to
make is that it's a sequel to "Guns of the South".
David
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Strangely...Soothing..."
David Johnson - djohnson...@worldnet.att.net
or joh...@www.rh.cc.ca.us
Home Page - www.geocities.com/SoHo/2019
Tristrim Peter Murnane
William L Pora (wp...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
:
: Here's another what-if. The invasion of tosev-3 is delayed for 50
: years due to problems at home and the lizards don't get to tosev-3
: until 1991. How would the lizard equipment fair versus our weapons of
: this time period? Would the lizards go to nukes faster? Would we go
: to nukes as fast? Could lizards killercraft compete with F-16s, or
: Su-27s? Could lizard tanks and transporters rate with M-1s and T-74s?
any modern day jet fighter should be able to handle them. Although the
lizards can fire up to 10 missles in a few seconds, if a LANCATSRER can
avoid them by turing off the rader, a Su-27 certaily could.
Thier tanks would proably be easy meet. If a panzer III can kill
one (even if it was the bottem armour), what would DU sabot do? And don't
forget, the lizard tactics are pathic. We've been practicing them for 50
years.
I thinks this all leads up to the fact that after ther inital
strikes, the lizards would get thier asses kicked :). SO yes, they
p[roabl;y WOULD go nuc pretty early. "cause, we can now fire back at them ;).
Just my 2 creds.
Peter Meilinger
: pesky Tosevites?
: Remember you show up, the last intel you had was that they used clubs
: and swords and shields and their science was only up as far as metal
: working. Suddenly your getting primitive radio signals from this
: planet. Satellites show air fields, large scale industry, huge cities
: and a massive worldwide conflict underway. Nothing is as predicted.
: The fleet has already settled into orbit, your troops are already
: defrosting and you need to get them off ship soon. How do you proceed?
Depends, I guess. I'd maybe set up shop on Mars or the moon and build
more weapons or at least ammunition if I had the capability. At the very
least I'd analyze radio traffic long enough to understand the current
situation and take out the capital cities of the major powers.
Here's a thought - drop an asteroid or two. How long would it take
for the climate to get back to normal? It's gotta be better than a
lot of nukes because you don't have to worry about radiation. Maybe
drop small asteroids on lots of targets instead of nukes. You've got
twenty years before the civilians arrive, remember. Would the Earth
be back to normal by then?
Pete
PMccutc103
bdec...@sunm4048at.sph.umich.edu (Barry DeCicco) wrote:
>|> 5. Assuming the Lizards used nukes agains industrial targets and
>|> poplulation centers, undoubtedly the US would come out of it severely
>|> crippled militarily. If the US took a major role defeating the
>|> Lizards our international prestige would probably be at an all time
>|> high. As for rebuilding, the US economy is relatively decentralized.
>
>Hit the hundred biggest metropolitan areas with an airburst or two
>apiece, and I think that the US would be crippled for decades.
>Decentralized isn't an accurate word for some things.
Granted, hitting the 100 larges cities in the US would be a huge blow.
However, a fair amount of American industry is no longer _that_
centralized. The auto plants in Tennessee and Kentucky, for example,
aren't going to get hit. There are factories in places like Findley, Ohio
that aren't possibly going to be targeted. And, even if they do hit major
cities, the extent of the destruction depends on how big the nukes are,
doesn't it? What is the circle within which everything useful is
destroyed? A hit in downtown Chicago might get a lot of lawyers and
investment bankers and commodity traders, but much of "Chicago's"
industrial capacity is in places like Schaumberg.
And, there while MIT and the University of Chicago may be destroyed,
places like University of Illinois will survive. I assume that all those
engineering profs and grad students can be of some help in getting stuff
working again.
That said, _of course_ a species that can cross intersteller space at a
substantial fraction of the speed of light is going to be able win. As
somebody else pointed out, they don't even need nukes -- big rocks are
plentiful enough, and, when dropped, make a big boom.
________________________
Pete McCutchen
Peter H. Granzeau
>In article <58k5gu$4...@sf18.dseg.ti.com>, mu...@ti.com wrote:
>
>> It doesn't matter how much they have made off of you. If you read the
>> book completly in the store you are stealing both from the store and
>> the author etc. Even if the store is okay with this, it is still stealing
>> from the author. It is the same as copying software illegally.
>
>>How does reading the book in the store differ from reading the book from a
>library or borrowing it from a friend? Either way, someone is paying for
>it eventually, but more than one person is reading it. In fact, I think
>it could be more forcefully argued that you are instead stealing from the
>owner of the book, who had no say about whether you may read his copy of
>the information contained therein.
If you read the book in the store, the book has not been paid for; the
store may return the book to the publisher for full credit. If you
read a friend's copy, or if you read a library copy, it has been paid
for. Simple.
Peter H. Granzeau
>While we're talking about Edward VIII, what did Frederick von Papen
>do in the war against the Lizards? I don't remember seeing him.
>
>He deserved to play himself on Hogan's Heroes. What more can I say? :)
A great comment on von Papen. But I thought his given name was Franz?
Peter H. Granzeau
On Wed, 11 Dec 1996 01:33:14 GMT, p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
wrote:
>Edward VIII didn't have enough intelligence to be able to chew gum and
>walk downstairs at the same time (if he had been able to think with
>anything other than his gonads, he still would have been King in
>1943). Thankfully, UK government was completely in the hands of
>Commons at that point; SOMEONE with some brains would have survived,
>told Bertie what to do (if he hadn't been vaporized when London got
>it), and a new Parliament would have been called. Some people who had
>been back benchers or HM loyal opposition might have to form the next
>government, but I have faith that they would have muddled through.
I have more: This comment may or may not be correct insofar as
Bertie's brains go. A & E ran a one-hour biography of him last night
that made him out to be a traitor during the war, and black marketeer
after. All the official records on the case, of course, remain under
seal until the middle of the next century.
Evidently heirs apparent of neither the house of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha nor
the house of Sonderburg-Glucksburg have any brains, when it comes to
women.
Graydon
Peter Meilinger (mell...@bu.edu) wrote:
: for the climate to get back to normal? It's gotta be better than a
: lot of nukes because you don't have to worry about radiation. Maybe
: drop small asteroids on lots of targets instead of nukes. You've got
: twenty years before the civilians arrive, remember. Would the Earth
: be back to normal by then?
Depends on the size of the asteroid; for a Dinosaur Killer, you're off by
five orders of magnitude. For little city wreakers, the nukes are so much
more practical that you'd use those. In between, you're looking at longer
than 20 years for the climate to stabilize.
The sensible thing to do is take Australia, build up a base, and spread
from there.
--
Uton we hycgan hwaer we ham agen, | saun...@qlink.queensu.ca
ond thonne gethencan hu we thider cumen.
Barry DeCicco
In article <19961211202...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, pmccu...@aol.com (PMccutc103) writes:
|> bdec...@sunm4048at.sph.umich.edu (Barry DeCicco) wrote:
|>
|> >|> 5. Assuming the Lizards used nukes agains industrial targets and
|> >|> poplulation centers, undoubtedly the US would come out of it severely
|> >|> crippled militarily. If the US took a major role defeating the
|> >|> Lizards our international prestige would probably be at an all time
|> >|> high. As for rebuilding, the US economy is relatively decentralized.
|> >
|> >Hit the hundred biggest metropolitan areas with an airburst or two
|> >apiece, and I think that the US would be crippled for decades.
|> >Decentralized isn't an accurate word for some things.
|>
|> Granted, hitting the 100 larges cities in the US would be a huge blow.
|> However, a fair amount of American industry is no longer _that_
|> centralized. The auto plants in Tennessee and Kentucky, for example,
|> aren't going to get hit. There are factories in places like Findley, Ohio
|> that aren't possibly going to be targeted. And, even if they do hit major
|> cities, the extent of the destruction depends on how big the nukes are,
|> doesn't it? What is the circle within which everything useful is
|> destroyed? A hit in downtown Chicago might get a lot of lawyers and
|> investment bankers and commodity traders, but much of "Chicago's"
|> industrial capacity is in places like Schaumberg.
These auto plants depend on parts shipped from all over the country.
Some of them are unecessary parts, but others are very necessary.
One bomb, placed between Ypsilanti and Rawsonville, MI, for example,
would shut down Ford's car production in the US. I work in one of those
plants. A wierd example of how decentralization can hurt: one of the
things this plant does is to cast aluminum. The plant, however, doesn't
melt aluminum - it is brought in from Indiana, molten.
We depend heavily on being able to conduct our business over most
of a continent, on a daily basis (think of how unimaginable FedEx
would have been thirty years ago).
When one hundred cities are gone, with the accompanying damage to
communications and commerce, people will suddenly be working with
whatever is very local. Getting things from a hundred miles away
would suddenly become very iffy, as opposed to being a routine three-
hour truck run. We could do a lot of scrounging, but the massive industrial
capability just wouldn't be there.
Barry
|>
|> And, there while MIT and the University of Chicago may be destroyed,
|> places like University of Illinois will survive. I assume that all those
|> engineering profs and grad students can be of some help in getting stuff
|> working again.
|>
|> That said, _of course_ a species that can cross intersteller space at a
|> substantial fraction of the speed of light is going to be able win. As
|> somebody else pointed out, they don't even need nukes -- big rocks are
|> plentiful enough, and, when dropped, make a big boom.
|> ________________________
|>
|> Pete McCutchen
|>
p
Mike Ralls
Robert Posey wrote:
>
SNIP:
> If you read the
> book completly in the store you are stealing both from the store and
> the author etc. Even if the store is okay with this, it is still stealing
> from the author. It is the same as copying software illegally.
>
>
> >
But how is this different from reading a book in a library? When you
check out a book from the library, the author doesn't get anything
either.
Peter H. Granzeau
On Thu, 12 Dec 1996 09:00:42 -0800, Mike Ralls <MRa...@willamette.edu>
wrote:
If you read the book in the store, the book has not been paid for; the
George D. Phillies
A few minor issues with respect to the novel:
1) Turtledove does not populate ('describe, explain,...') the invader's
star drive, at all. We have a rough indication of the distance and travel
time, implying that the aliens are 10-20LY away, and as I read it that
they travel at 0.1 or 0.2c. There is no particular indication as to
whether the spaceship reactors are nuclear or thermonuclear, or what sort
of rockets they have. One infers from the abortive invasion of England
that take off, moving cross-continent, and landing again is a major
operation for a starship, because otherwise the aliens would not have
bothered to bring transport aircraft that haul tanks cross-continental
distances.
One scienctifictional interpretation is that the aliens have a star drive,
a la Star Trek, with the interesting feature that it is slow -- full speed
ahead is not 10,000c but 0.1c. This is still much better than anything we
can foresee doing with real equipment. Depending on the details of
activation and deactivation of the mythical warp drive, Atvar et al might
be in the position in which their drives take them from earth-size planet
to earth-size planet only. In particular, there is no internal evidence
in the novel that the invaders have interplanetary (as opposed to
interstellar) travel -- they can get into low earth orbit, go
interstellar, and land, but may not have the technical capacity to reach
the asteroid belt to divert asteroids. (This is not the traditional SF
star drive, though the aliens of my unpublished novel are even worse off
(for early chapters http://www.wpi.edu/~phillies ).) (However, readers of
Piper's Paratime series will recall that the true civilization had
interplanetary (perhaps interstellar) capacity armed spaceships,
but that it had never occurred to them to site a paratime portal other
than on earth, or to use their flight capacity to make a serous
exploration of their own solar system.)
2) 1944 is somewhat after real synthetic organic chemistry got going. It
is perhaps disappointing that no one tried to isolate and manufacture the
active components of ginger. However, SF based on organic chemistry is
not traditional, notwithstanding the famous SF story of the early 50s
which published the structure of B-12, at a time when publishing
structures in text was *not* as trivial as it is now.
George
Erich Schneider
>2) 1944 is somewhat after real synthetic organic chemistry got going. It
>is perhaps disappointing that no one tried to isolate and manufacture the
>active components of ginger.
IG Farben would've figured out a way to make money off it, that's for
sure...
See _Gravity's Rainbow_ for more IG Farben fun.
--
Erich Schneider er...@bush.cs.tamu.edu http://bush.cs.tamu.edu/~erich
"Now the Cosmos is stormed every day, but the rockets are nothing more
than bread trucks. This is not surprising from Americans, who will
always try their best to turn the stars into dollars."
- Rudy Rucker and Bruce Sterling, "Storming the Cosmos"
Bill McKinley
robohen wrote:
> If reading books is a crime, it should be illegal to read books at the
> library.
In Australia, at any rate, authors and publishers are paid a small
fee by libraries to hold and loan their books (the fees are paid
to an agency, which passes them back on the basis of a formula).
They do not, of course, receive similar fees for books that are
read in bookstores.
Cheers
Bill
--
The views expressed here are mine, and are not those of the
Australian Government.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
>2) 1944 is somewhat after real synthetic organic chemistry got going.
Are you sure of that?
My father was an organic chemist; graduated in '42, doctorate in '49
(with a couple of years on the Manhattan Project in between), taught
at Tufts for thirty years. I got the definite impression from him
that REAL synthetic organic chemistry, where the chemists actually
knew what they were doing rather than working largely by trial and
error, didn't get going until the late 1950s or early 1960s.
This impression may be mistaken; I mean, if you're an organic chemist
who's studied history of science I'll gladly yield the point. But it
IS the impression I got.
For information on Lawrence Watt-Evans, finger -l lawr...@clark.net
The Misenchanted Page is at http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/
Last major update: 11/17/96
Barry DeCicco
I think that George meant that people were able to work with organic
compounds, with some degree of knowledge, and to have a chance to
identify and isolate "active ingredients", in many substances.
Your father probably meant that things were much better in the late
1950's/early 1960's. For example, a factor of 10 in information and
technology could make a lot of difference, when trying to identify
and synthesize something.
Barry
p
robohen
On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Bill McKinley wrote:
> robohen wrote:
> > If reading books is a crime, it should be illegal to read books at the
> > library.
> In Australia, at any rate, authors and publishers are paid a small
> fee by libraries to hold and loan their books (the fees are paid
> to an agency, which passes them back on the basis of a formula).
> They do not, of course, receive similar fees for books that are
> read in bookstores.
Well then, all the more reason to read at bookstores! Power to the
masses! :-)
Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:47:21 -0500, robohen <Rob...@concentric.net>
wrote:
You don't think authors deserve to be paid for their work?
FOAD, moron. Rot in hell.
robohen
On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:47:21 -0500, robohen <Rob...@concentric.net>
> wrote:
> >On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Bill McKinley wrote:
> >> In Australia, at any rate, authors and publishers are paid a small
> >> fee by libraries to hold and loan their books (the fees are paid
> >> to an agency, which passes them back on the basis of a formula).
> >> They do not, of course, receive similar fees for books that are
> >> read in bookstores.
> >Well then, all the more reason to read at bookstores! Power to the
> >masses! :-)
> You don't think authors deserve to be paid for their work?
> FOAD, moron. Rot in hell.
No, you rot in hell. No one "deserves" anything. In the free world,
supply and demand sets the rules. If someone comes up with a cheaper way
to sell books, he wins.
Elisabeth Carey
A cheaper way to sell books, sure.
Not paying the people who did the work, no.
That's what you advocated - theft of the author's work in writing the
book. If the writer who depends on payment for his writing to live on
doesn't get paid, how long do you think your favorite authors will keep
publishing?
What do you do for a living? Shell we take advantage of *your* work and
refuse to pay you for it?
Lis Carey
Elisabeth Carey
Mike Ralls wrote:
>
> Robert Posey wrote:
> >
> SNIP:
> > If you read the
> > book completly in the store you are stealing both from the store and
> > the author etc. Even if the store is okay with this, it is still stealing
> > from the author. It is the same as copying software illegally.
> >
> > Robert Posey
> >
> > >
> But how is this different from reading a book in a library? When you
> check out a book from the library, the author doesn't get anything
> either.
When you read a book from the the library, that copy has been paid for
and both the author and the publisher have received their payment for
that copy.
When you read a book in the bookstore, the book *hasn't* been paid for
yet, and may still be returned for full credit to the publisher by the
bookstore.
Multiple readership of the same book is a normal and expected part of
the book-publishing business; not getting paid at all for a copy that
multiple people have read is *not*.
Lis Carey
Elisabeth Carey
> > book completly in the store you are stealing both from the store and
> > the author etc. Even if the store is okay with this, it is still stealing
> > from the author. It is the same as copying software illegally.
>
> library or borrowing it from a friend? Either way, someone is paying for
> it eventually, but more than one person is reading it. In fact, I think
> it could be more forcefully argued that you are instead stealing from the
> owner of the book, who had no say about whether you may read his copy of
> the information contained therein.
The library copy and your friend's copy have both been paid for.
The bookstore's copy hasn't been paid for yet, and may never be - it may
still be returned to the publisher for *full credit*, with neither
author nor publisher receiving any payment whatsoever for that copy.
You are only stealing from the bookstore if you damage the book so that
it *can't* be returned for credit, in which case the author and
publisher get paid, but the bookstore is stuck for the cost of a book
it can't sell.
Lis Carey
Alison Brooks
In article <32B03A...@willamette.edu>, Mike Ralls
<MRa...@willamette.edu> writes
>Robert Posey wrote:
>>
>SNIP:
>> If you read the
>> book completly in the store you are stealing both from the store and
>> the author etc. Even if the store is okay with this, it is still stealing
>> from the author. It is the same as copying software illegally.
>>
>>
>> >
>But how is this different from reading a book in a library? When you
>check out a book from the library, the author doesn't get anything
>either.
It is my understanding that in the UK at least, the author does
eventually get a small sum for books that are borrowed from a library. I
have no idea of details of how this payment is carried out.
--
Alison Brooks
O-
Stephen Holland
In article <32b19d1e...@news.clark.net>, lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence Watt-Evans) writes:
-> On Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:47:21 -0500, robohen <Rob...@concentric.net>
-> wrote:
-> >Well then, all the more reason to read at bookstores! Power to the
-> >masses! :-)
-> You don't think authors deserve to be paid for their work?
-> FOAD, moron. Rot in hell.
That's certainly a mornic comment to make. As for authors being paid
for their work... it's an open question what form this payment is going
to take in next century. The proliferation of copier technology, the
ability to scan text on to disc, and the near imposibility of enforcing
copyright laws when material can be copied at the push of a button
makes it very unlikely that the traditional concept of paying to read
something will survive. Perhaps we will see some sort of shareware
approach to novels. Perhaps the continued growth of the InterNet
and the improvement of SGML standards will lead to the end of people
actually buying books, simpler to just print one off from the publisher's
Web site when you want it... Perhaps the future for authors really
is in tv and movie scripts. Either way, the idea that there is only
one way to reimburse someone for their efforts is simplistic and
vaguely insulting.
============================================================================
"One person can make a difference, but most of the time probably shouldn't."
============================================================================
John Moreno
Erich Schneider <er...@csdl.cs.tamu.edu> wrote:
-snip-
] Imagine, if you will, how copyright law and intellectual property
] would work among a species with near-instantaneous telepathy and
] eidetic memories.
Written by Randal Garret, and it doesn't turn out to good for them.
Although he didn't go into the details of their intellectual property
rights laws.
--
John Moreno
Doug Hoff
Elisabeth Carey <lis....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<32B1E2...@worldnet.att.net>...
> robohen wrote:
> A cheaper way to sell books, sure.
>
> Not paying the people who did the work, no.
>
> That's what you advocated - theft of the author's work in writing the
> book. If the writer who depends on payment for his writing to live on
> doesn't get paid, how long do you think your favorite authors will keep
> publishing?
>
> What do you do for a living? Shell we take advantage of *your* work and
> refuse to pay you for it?
I flip through magazines at bookstores occasionally, am I an arch-criminal?
Is my friend a thief when I loan him a book, and am I aiding and
abbetting? Certainly, authors and publishers should be paid for their
work, but the issue is less cut-and-dried than it looks at first glance.
dh
Doug Hoff
Elisabeth Carey <lis....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<32B1E6...@worldnet.att.net>...
> Patrick Gavin wrote:
> >
> > How does reading the book in the store differ from reading the book
from a
> > library or borrowing it from a friend? Either way, someone is paying
for
> > it eventually, but more than one person is reading it. In fact, I
think
> > it could be more forcefully argued that you are instead stealing from
the
> > owner of the book, who had no say about whether you may read his copy
of
> > the information contained therein.
>
> The library copy and your friend's copy have both been paid for.
>
> The bookstore's copy hasn't been paid for yet, and may never be - it may
> still be returned to the publisher for *full credit*, with neither
> author nor publisher receiving any payment whatsoever for that copy.
But what if someone else buys that copy? Someone has paid for it, but you
got to read if for free. From the author/publisher point of view, they get
the same $$ as they would if I buy the book and loan it too a friend.
Frankly, tho, I would never sit down in a bookstore and read a book. It
smacks of terminal cheapness.
dh
"devil's hadvocate"
David Johnson
"Doug Hoff" <hoff...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>
>
>Elisabeth Carey <lis....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
You know, we could be getting just the _tiniest_ bit off topic here...
David
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Strangely...Soothing..."
David Johnson - djohnson...@worldnet.att.net
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