Kushiel's Dart: kaboingy. [No spoilers]
Elf M. Sternberg
about it. Everything about his life now centers about his new love, his
new obsession, and there are times, when you're sitting together at
lunch, when you really, really wish he'd just shut up, because, y'know,
he's really being an asshole about it.
He has New Relationship Energy Syndrome.
I'm reading _Kushiel's Dart_, and the author reminds me of this friend.
She has wandered through the initial stages of association with the
leather/kink community-- abhorrence, curiousity, investigation,
participation, rejection, acceptance, embrasure-- and has now gone to
that stage where she's madly, passionately, wholly in love with the very
idea of S&M and the community that supports her participation. She now
has a relationship with the leather/kink community, and it's so
beautiful and so magnificent that she has to tell the whole world about
it.
But she can't, really. Not about this. So she takes this New
Relationship Energy and a degree in French History and she pours it out
into this massive novel. And, like this friend, she wants to let you
know every last detail about why she's so hooked, so *into*, this new
and wonderful thing she's found, even if it's not your thing, even if
you don't care.
I mean, when she uses the word 'algolagnia,' a word manufactured by the
denizens of alt.sex.bondage for the sole purpose of sounding scholarly
about whatever it is that they do, it just makes me want to toss the
book at the wall, hard. Internet neologisms do not belong in novels set
in a 17th Century pseudoFrance.
Don't get me wrong. _Kushiel's Dart_ is a well-written novel with a
nicely constructed fantasy world and some decent adventures. But great
Ghu, I so want tell the author, "Honey, get over it already!"
Elf
David Bilek
>I mean, when she uses the word 'algolagnia,' a word manufactured by the
>denizens of alt.sex.bondage for the sole purpose of sounding scholarly
>about whatever it is that they do, it just makes me want to toss the
>book at the wall, hard. Internet neologisms do not belong in novels set
>in a 17th Century pseudoFrance.
>
>Don't get me wrong. _Kushiel's Dart_ is a well-written novel with a
>nicely constructed fantasy world and some decent adventures. But great
>Ghu, I so want tell the author, "Honey, get over it already!"
>
You could try _Banewreaker_. Not a drop of bondage, sadomasochism, or
even sex anywhere to be found.
-David
Elf M. Sternberg
> You could try _Banewreaker_. Not a drop of bondage, sadomasochism, or
> even sex anywhere to be found.
To quote Monty Python, "And where's the pleasure in that?"
Truth to tell, I don't know a thing about Ms. Carey. I don't
know if she's into kink at all, I don't know if she has a degree in
French history. My impression, from the first couple of chapters, is
unmistakably the same one I get listening to some early twenty-something
on her third trip to The Cuff, The Grind, or Kinky Couples, talking
about how wonderful and fascinating the whole thing is.
At least she's done more research than your typical episode of
CSI. And she didn't write it all as a personal fantasy typed out in an
alcoholic haze.
Elf
Elio M. Garcia Jr.
> David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> writes:
>
>> You could try _Banewreaker_. Not a drop of bondage, sadomasochism, or
>> even sex anywhere to be found.
>
> To quote Monty Python, "And where's the pleasure in that?"
>
> Truth to tell, I don't know a thing about Ms. Carey. I don't
> know if she's into kink at all,
I believe in an interview with LOCUS, she said that people tend to expect
her to be very involved in BDSM ... and to find out that she's not at all.
She did research, IIRC, and she has said that "just enough" (again, IIRC)
of her is in Phedre. So maybe there's some latent interest and fantasy in
there, I don't know.
Re: algolagnia, I think the term was coined in the early 1900s by a
psychoanalyst. A quick googling suggests it was Baron von Schrenk-Notzing.
That said, your point still holds -- it's a rather modern word to use in
that case, but I suppose given the Latin and Greek roots it can slide.
--
[Upon a Dzurlord learning of the murder of a critic by a painter]
"And it was well done, too. I'd have done the same, only-"
"Yes?"
"I don't paint." (Steven Brust, _The Phoenix Guards_)
Mark Atwood
> unmistakably the same one I get listening to some early twenty-something
> on her third trip to The Cuff, The Grind, or Kinky Couples, talking
Hey, no fair talking about those in the present tense. The only
one still actually existant is The Grind.
> At least she's done more research than your typical episode of CSI.
"Slaves of Las Vegas"
> And she didn't write it all as a personal fantasy typed out in an
> alcoholic haze.
Anne Rice writing as A.N. Roquelaure, "Sleeping Beauty"
Or am I just showing off?
--
Mark Atwood | When you do things right, people won't be sure
ma...@atwood.name | you've done anything at all.
http://mark.atwood.name/ http://www.livejournal.com/users/fallenpegasus
Elf M. Sternberg
> Re: algolagnia, I think the term was coined in the early 1900s by a
> psychoanalyst. A quick googling suggests it was Baron von Schrenk-Notzing.
> That said, your point still holds -- it's a rather modern word to use in
> that case, but I suppose given the Latin and Greek roots it can slide.
Really? Hmm. I suppose I should have googled for it myself
before I said anything. My recollection is that the term was being
tossed around ASB about the same time that the most definitely modern
"polyamory" was coined, and was thrown out for the same reason: looking
for a cohesive communal term. (The most popular token became wiitwd,
literally, "whatever it is that we do," although I'm not sure if a
pronunciation was ever settled upon.)
I am impressed with the sheer breathless quality with which she
approaches Phedre's, um, condition, since she's not into wittwd at all.
Elf
Elf M. Sternberg
> > At least she's done more research than your typical episode of CSI.
> "Slaves of Las Vegas"
Actually, I was thinking "Fur and Loathing." It wasn't a
reference to BDSM, it was a reference to writers writing about something
to which they have no personal emotional connection.
> > And she didn't write it all as a personal fantasy typed out in an
> > alcoholic haze.
> Anne Rice writing as A.N. Roquelaure, "Sleeping Beauty"
I think that one was pretty clear.
Elf
Tim McDaniel
>the denizens of alt.sex.bondage for the sole purpose of sounding
>scholarly about whatever it is that they do
And one of the denizens hopped into a time machine to 1895,
called himself Baron von Schrenck-Notzing, and publicized the word?
<http://www.psychdirect.com/forensic/Criminology/para/sadism.htm>
Besides, Google Groups shows a first use in soc.culture.indian,
two months before the first use in ASB.
>Internet neologisms do not belong in novels set in a 17th Century
>pseudoFrance.
With the usual reply
Ye knowe eek, that in forme of speche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho
That hadden prys, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem; and yet they spake hem so,
And spedde as wel in love as men now do;
Eek for to winne love in sondry ages,
In sondry londes, sondry ben usages.
Certainly Internet neoflogisms may be out of place in historical-like
works ("spamming", say, in a Regency novel or a Deryni novel), but I'm
sure she used other words more modern than 1895 without your notice.
--
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tm...@panix.com
Wayne Throop
: Don't get me wrong. _Kushiel's Dart_ is a well-written novel with a
: nicely constructed fantasy world and some decent adventures. But great
: Ghu, I so want tell the author, "Honey, get over it already!"
Yah. I've hesitated to invest in the followups for mostly that reason.
And a specific bit, the incorporation of the "fact" that a tendency
to conflate sex and pain was a genetic predisposition and/or mystic
destiny of tremendous rarity and value, was a bit eyerolling.
Quite a bit.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Sternberg <e...@drizzle.com> said
<sbip>
>Don't get me wrong. _Kushiel's Dart_ is a well-written novel with a
>nicely constructed fantasy world and some decent adventures. But great
>Ghu, I so want tell the author, "Honey, get over it already!"
She didn't. She went on to write sequel(s?). I have it shelved as EFP
'with a twist', although the actual fantasy content is minimal, it's
really alternate history. But as you say, readable .. not as readable as
the _Black Jewels_ trilogy by Anne Bishop though, IMO.
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
SC recommends the use of Firefox; Get smart, or get assimilated.
Wayne Throop
: have it shelved as EFP 'with a twist',
I would rate it as better-than-extruded.
The background and character interactions aren't off-the-shelf generics.
At least, I didn't recognize them if they were, so they were new to me,
and captured my interest.
Gene Ward Smith
Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
> I mean, when she uses the word 'algolagnia,' a word manufactured by
the
> denizens of alt.sex.bondage for the sole purpose of sounding
scholarly
> about whatever it is that they do, it just makes me want to toss the
> book at the wall, hard. Internet neologisms do not belong in novels
set
> in a 17th Century pseudoFrance.
Relax. It's not an Internet neologism.
> Don't get me wrong. _Kushiel's Dart_ is a well-written novel with a
> nicely constructed fantasy world and some decent adventures.
I haven't tried reading it, but I did try Banewreaker, and I thought
the writing was pretty bad.
David Bilek
Then what SF do you think contains good writing? I've been reading
RASFW for years and years and I realize I have absolutely no idea what
you actually like. I know what you DONT like, but that's hardly the
same thing.
-David
Gene Ward Smith
David Bilek wrote:
> Then what SF do you think contains good writing? I've been reading
> RASFW for years and years and I realize I have absolutely no idea
what
> you actually like. I know what you DONT like, but that's hardly the
> same thing.
I've been known to briefly review things. I've mentioned the prose
style of Cherryh and Grimsley rather recently in a positive manner.
I don't normally give reviews of things I don't like and didn't finish,
though I suppose you could say I did that with Hidden Empire. I suppose
I could dig the book out and explain why the prose style set my teeth
on edge, but I'm not sure what the point would be. Prose style isn't
everything, and to some readers it isn't anything.
htn963
Wayne Throop wrote:
> : GSV Three Minds in a Can <G...@quik.clara.co.uk>
> : have it shelved as EFP 'with a twist',
>
> I would rate it as better-than-extruded.
> The background and character interactions aren't off-the-shelf
generics.
> At least, I didn't recognize them if they were, so they were new to
me,
> and captured my interest.
In other words, you liked all that kinky sex.
--
Ht
Wayne Throop
:: character interactions aren't off-the-shelf generics. At least, I
:: didn't recognize them if they were, so they were new to me, and
:: captured my interest.
: "htn963" <htn...@verizon.net>
: In other words, you liked all that kinky sex.
No, I read it for the articles, I tells ya, the articles.
You know, "a", "the", like that.
But actually, I mostly skipped any sexual passages.
Not my cup of tea ay-tall. The alternate history stuff
was the most interesting part IMO. And the spy-vs-spy plotlines.
Werner Arend
Not a bit of sex anywhere? How disappointing ;)
I have read all three Kushiel books and have quite enjoyed them. I
couldn't really get into the S/M parts so I don't know how authentic
they are, but they didn't bother me. Otherwise, an engaging story, a
sympathetic heroine, a refreshing approach to solving problems, and I
like the D'Angeline culture. We could use more of that.
BTW, How is _Banewreaker_? I've heard wildly varying comments.
Werner
Charlton Wilbur
WT> But actually, I mostly skipped any sexual passages. Not my
WT> cup of tea ay-tall. The alternate history stuff was the most
WT> interesting part IMO. And the spy-vs-spy plotlines.
I found that the sexual passages actually fit the plot and characters,
but I just gradually lost interest in the book. One day about 3/4 of
the way through I just put it down and somehow never managed to pick
it up again.
Charlton
--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com
how...@brazee.net
On 27-Feb-2005, Werner Arend <ne...@arcor.de> wrote:
> I have read all three Kushiel books and have quite enjoyed them. I
> couldn't really get into the S/M parts so I don't know how authentic
> they are, but they didn't bother me. Otherwise, an engaging story, a
> sympathetic heroine, a refreshing approach to solving problems, and I
> like the D'Angeline culture. We could use more of that.
My wife read the first one, I couldn't get past the SM, and only read about
a third of it, despite Steven Brust's recommendation.
But then I couldn't get past the start of Diane Mott Davidson's mystery
novels when I read that the protagonist didn't immediately leave the bastard
who purposefully took a hammer to her fingers. (Although I read that the
latest novel has her being the prime suspect in his murder).
It doesn't take much sadism to turn off my chances of enjoying a work -
fortunately, my to-read stack is never-ending.
Wayne Throop
: I just gradually lost interest in the book. One day about 3/4 of the
: way through I just put it down and somehow never managed to pick it up
: again.
I suppose that could be considered similar to my experience, if you
squint a bit. It's just that I put it down at the end of the first
book instead of 3/4 through, and somehow never managed to pick up the
continuation in the next book.
David Bilek
I reviewed it at tedious length a couple months ago here in RASFW.
Anything else I say would be redundant. The title of the thread was
something basic like "Review - _Banewreaker_" if you're interested in
google groups.
-David
JJ Karhu
wrote:
>David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> writes:
>> You could try _Banewreaker_. Not a drop of bondage, sadomasochism, or
>> even sex anywhere to be found.
>
> To quote Monty Python, "And where's the pleasure in that?"
>
>CSI. And she didn't write it all as a personal fantasy typed out in an
>alcoholic haze.
The beginning of the book, in my opinion, was very well written
indeed. When Phedre introduces herself, the writing is -- again, in my
opinion -- of the highest quality.
The book does descend into a somewhat standard mold after that . . .
but those early passages got me to buy the book.
// JJ -- note that there really wasn't any sex, per se.
Nicole Bourgoin
ne...@arcor.de says...
> I have read all three Kushiel books and have quite enjoyed them. I
> couldn't really get into the S/M parts so I don't know how authentic
> they are, but they didn't bother me. Otherwise, an engaging story, a
> sympathetic heroine, a refreshing approach to solving problems, and I
> like the D'Angeline culture. We could use more of that.
Agreed. I enjoyed the alternate-Earth touches, and the characters. Most
of the sex scenes seemed to have relevance to the plot, as well.
> BTW, How is _Banewreaker_? I've heard wildly varying comments.
If you enjoyed the Kushiel books for the alternate history elements,
don't touch this one. It's nothing of the sort. It's more like alternate
Silmarillion. I don't think Carey managed to achieve the correct tone
for epic fantasy. If her goal is to comment on Tolkien, I think she
missed.
She still has a tin ear for names, if that bothered you from the Kushiel
books. Lots of pseudo-Elvish in this one. (The naming choice I didn't
get: Harrington Bay. Ill-thought Weber homage, or too many football
games on the TV?)
Speaking of that, you could get some value out of playing Spot the
Reference in this one. One of the characters reminds me of something out
of Silverberg's _Lord Valentine's Castle_. I'd point out why but I
returned _Banewreaker_ to the library.
I'm not about to pick up the second half of the book when it comes out
later this year. Ouch ouch ouch.
-----
Nicole Bourgoin
http://www.faerielands.com/
Werner Arend
Thanks. I found it. A very informative review. It seems _Banewreaker_ is
a must-read for me, despite the pseudo-archaic style you mention that
I don't like too much.
Werner
Steve Simmons
> Certainly Internet neoflogisms may be out of place . . .
OK, I gotta ask - is 'neoflogisms' a typo, a good one you just invented,
or one I'd simply not run into before.
--
"History will be kind to me. I intend to write it."
-- Winston Churchill
Tim McDaniel
Steve Simmons <s...@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> wrote:
>Tim <tm...@panix.com> wrote on 02/27/05 at 1:55:
>
>> Certainly Internet neoflogisms may be out of place . . .
>
>OK, I gotta ask - is 'neoflogisms' a typo, a good one you just invented,
It was a pure typo. Really. Must auto-snarf it, though.
Let me expand on my previous point. The OED 1st ed.'s first citation
of "hello" is 1883, 12 years before "algolagnia", and its definition
is "an exclamation to call attention", not as a synonym for
"greetings" or "good day". Furthermore, "algolagnia" at least has
classical roots; "hello" is derived from a specifically English hunt
call. Does anyone throw the book against the wall for reading a
medieval "hello"?
Gene Ward Smith
> In article <slrnd264o...@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>,
> Steve Simmons <s...@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> wrote:
>>Tim <tm...@panix.com> wrote on 02/27/05 at 1:55:
>>
>>> Certainly Internet neoflogisms may be out of place . . .
>>
>>OK, I gotta ask - is 'neoflogisms' a typo, a good one you just invented,
>
> It was a pure typo. Really. Must auto-snarf it, though.
You fooled me; I was thinking "what a silly question".
Aaron Davies
> I mean, when she uses the word 'algolagnia,' a word manufactured by the
> denizens of alt.sex.bondage for the sole purpose of sounding scholarly
> about whatever it is that they do, it just makes me want to toss the book
> at the wall, hard. Internet neologisms do not belong in novels set in a
> 17th Century pseudoFrance.
I find it interesting that you place the novel in the 17th Century. I've
always had a hard time figuring out exactly when it was supposed to be
taking place, in alt-hist terms. pFrance and pItaly certainly seem to be
in the Renaissance, if not the Enlightenment, but pGermany and pBritain
both seem to be around AD500. Then there's pCrete, firmly in the Minoan
age, not to mention the bizarreness going on in the pMiddle East in the
third book.
--
Aaron Davies
Opinions expressed are solely those of a random number generator.
"I don't know if it's real or not but it is a myth."
-Jami JoAnne of alt.folklore.urban, showing her grasp on reality.
Wim Lewis
Charlton Wilbur <cwi...@mithril.chromatico.net> wrote:
>>>>>> "WT" == Wayne Throop <thr...@sheol.org> writes:
> WT> But actually, I mostly skipped any sexual passages. Not my
> WT> cup of tea ay-tall. The alternate history stuff was the most
> WT> interesting part IMO. And the spy-vs-spy plotlines.
>
>I found that the sexual passages actually fit the plot and characters,
>but I just gradually lost interest in the book. One day about 3/4 of
>the way through I just put it down and somehow never managed to pick
>it up again.
More or less the same as my experience. I'm all in favor of a bit of
kinkiness in my fiction, but somewhere in the middle of the first book
I found myself with no urge to continue reading; I Just Didn't Care What
Happened To These People. The spy-vs-spy stuff was the most interesting
part to me, I think, but it wasn't enough to carry the book.
I don't remember if I read far enough to decide if I thought the
mystical True Submissive stuff was a flaw in the book or just a
depiction of a perfectly plausible society with an odd belief.
--
Wim Lewis <wi...@hhhh.org>, Seattle, WA, USA. PGP keyID 27F772C1
Craig Richardson
wrote:
>In article <87hdjxg...@mithril.chromatico.net>,
>Charlton Wilbur <cwi...@mithril.chromatico.net> wrote:
>>> And the spy-vs-spy plotlines.
>>
>>I found that the sexual passages actually fit the plot and characters,
>>but I just gradually lost interest in the book. One day about 3/4 of
>>the way through I just put it down and somehow never managed to pick
>>it up again.
>
>More or less the same as my experience. I'm all in favor of a bit of
>kinkiness in my fiction, but somewhere in the middle of the first book
>I found myself with no urge to continue reading; I Just Didn't Care What
>Happened To These People. The spy-vs-spy stuff was the most interesting
>part to me, I think, but it wasn't enough to carry the book.
Okay, now you've made me consider the concept of Spy-vs-Spy slash. I
give this thought back to you, along the lines of the famous Monty
Python quote: "I've suffered for my music. Now it's your turn."
--Craig
--
"I have no sex appeal, a rum-pa-pum-pum," sang Gabe Fenton, in spirit
with the season. "My social skills are nil, a rum-pa-pum-pum."
"Did that actually rhyme?" asked Tuck. -- Christopher Moore,
"He's a bright guy," said Theo. _The Stupidest Angel_
Jason Larke
WL> I don't remember if I read far enough to decide if I thought
WL> the mystical True Submissive stuff was a flaw in the book or
WL> just a depiction of a perfectly plausible society with an odd
WL> belief.
It becomes obvious later in the series that Kushiel & numerous
other gods & angels are taking an active role in affairs. If you
can swallow that, the rest becomes pretty easy to accept. If you
have angels who chose to create people who love pain, and it says
so in the holy book, society is naturally going to accomodate
such folks to some extent.
Obviously that doesn't make the book any more entertaining for
you.
--
Postings from this account are personal and opinions expressed are my own.
Any sufficiently advanced weapon is indistinguishable from a practical joke.
"It's like vigilante justice without the justice." -- Tisha O'Malley
"People change, and smile: but the agony abides."-T.S. Eliot, The Dry Salvages
Nancy Lebovitz
Mark Atwood <ma...@atwood.name> wrote:
>"Elf M. Sternberg" <e...@drizzle.com> writes:
>> unmistakably the same one I get listening to some early twenty-something
>> on her third trip to The Cuff, The Grind, or Kinky Couples, talking
>
>Hey, no fair talking about those in the present tense. The only
>one still actually existant is The Grind.
>
>> At least she's done more research than your typical episode of CSI.
>
>
>> And she didn't write it all as a personal fantasy typed out in an
>> alcoholic haze.
>
>
>
>
Perhaps you are also showing off.
--
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
"We've tamed the lightning and taught sand to give error messages."
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov
Nancy Lebovitz
Nicole Bourgoin <nbou...@gmailDELETEME.com> wrote:
>
>> BTW, How is _Banewreaker_? I've heard wildly varying comments.
>
>If you enjoyed the Kushiel books for the alternate history elements,
>don't touch this one. It's nothing of the sort. It's more like alternate
>Silmarillion. I don't think Carey managed to achieve the correct tone
>for epic fantasy. If her goal is to comment on Tolkien, I think she
>missed.
I gave up on the first Kushiel book about half way through, but I thought
the alternate Christianity was the best thing in it, so I should probably
at least take a look at _Banewrecker_.
Nancy Lebovitz
That reminds me of a novel about Mark Twain coming back with Halley's
Comet. (Sorry, author and title forgotten.) "Hello" annoyed him a lot.