What book)s) would use modern upper class English?

[Sean]

I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even know
how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not*
regency.
Suggestions?

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

English English, or American English?



--
Now available on Amazon or B&N: One-Eyed Jack.
Greg Kraft could see ghosts. That didn't mean he could stop them...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1466291532/

[J. Clarke]

In article <340bce21-ede9-45d8-b680-d707cc1b5161
@yb1g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, seanea...@hotmail.com says...

Define "modern upper class English". Are you talking about the English
of the British uppah clawsses or something else?

[David Dyer-Bennet]

I'd suggest looking for video rather than books. But do you mean
English, American, Canadian, Australian, Indian, or which version of
English?
--
Googleproofaddress(account:dd-b provider:dd-b domain:net)
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <MPG.2bedb2d8c...@news.newsguy.com>,

For the US, just imagine Charles Emerson WInchester or Thurston Howell III
talking...

:-)
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 2013-05-03 14:46:38 -0400, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan said:

> In article <MPG.2bedb2d8c...@news.newsguy.com>,
> J. Clarke <jclark...@cox.net> wrote:
>> In article <340bce21-ede9-45d8-b680-d707cc1b5161
>> @yb1g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, seanea...@hotmail.com says...
>>>
>>> I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even know
>>> how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not*
>>> regency.
>>> Suggestions?
>>
>> Define "modern upper class English". Are you talking about the English
>> of the British uppah clawsses or something else?
>
> For the US, just imagine Charles Emerson WInchester or Thurston Howell III
> talking...
>
> :-)

Speaking as a Princeton alumnus who's talked to a Vanderbilt and a
couple of the Chases of Chase Manhattan, and whose own ancestry
included some old money, let me say that that's flat out wrong. That's
how Hollywood thinks upper-class twits should sound; it isn't how they
actually DO talk.

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2013-05-03 18:55:17 +0000, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> said:

> On 2013-05-03 14:46:38 -0400, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan said:
>
>> In article <MPG.2bedb2d8c...@news.newsguy.com>,
>> J. Clarke <jclark...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> In article <340bce21-ede9-45d8-b680-d707cc1b5161
>>> @yb1g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, seanea...@hotmail.com says...
>>>>
>>>> I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even know
>>>> how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not*
>>>> regency.
>>>> Suggestions?
>>>
>>> Define "modern upper class English". Are you talking about the English
>>> of the British uppah clawsses or something else?
>>
>> For the US, just imagine Charles Emerson WInchester or Thurston Howell III
>> talking...
>>
>> :-)
>
> Speaking as a Princeton alumnus who's talked to a Vanderbilt and a
> couple of the Chases of Chase Manhattan, and whose own ancestry
> included some old money, let me say that that's flat out wrong. That's
> how Hollywood thinks upper-class twits should sound; it isn't how they
> actually DO talk.

Well. How Hollywood thinks they used to sound, at least.

Or used to think they sound. Or something.

Hollywood portrayals of the American upper classes in recent years
don't seem to have them talking terribly differently than anyone else;
it's what they talk about, not how, that seems to make the difference.
But there've been enough TV shows set in wealthy New York society or
the Hamptons to serve as a reference, I suppose.

kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 5/3/13 2:55 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On 2013-05-03 14:46:38 -0400, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan said:
>
>> In article <MPG.2bedb2d8c...@news.newsguy.com>,
>> J. Clarke <jclark...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> In article <340bce21-ede9-45d8-b680-d707cc1b5161
>>> @yb1g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, seanea...@hotmail.com says...
>>>>
>>>> I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even know
>>>> how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not*
>>>> regency.
>>>> Suggestions?
>>>
>>> Define "modern upper class English". Are you talking about the English
>>> of the British uppah clawsses or something else?
>>
>> For the US, just imagine Charles Emerson WInchester or Thurston Howell
>> III
>> talking...
>>
>> :-)
>
> Speaking as a Princeton alumnus who's talked to a Vanderbilt and a
> couple of the Chases of Chase Manhattan, and whose own ancestry included
> some old money, let me say that that's flat out wrong. That's how
> Hollywood thinks upper-class twits should sound; it isn't how they
> actually DO talk.

Do they actually talk significantly differently than anyone else these
days? At least, assuming roughly equal education levels?


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Rod Speed]

"Sean" <seanea...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:340bce21-ede9-45d8...@yb1g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...

One upper class englishman I knew used to greet people by saying 'what ho'

[Rod Speed]

"Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> wrote in message
news:km0ltb$aft$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 2013-05-03 10:15:25 -0400, Sean said:
>
>> I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even know
>> how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not*
>> regency.
>> Suggestions?
>
> English English, or American English?

There are no upper class american english.

Even Churchill's mum wasn't anything like modern.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Not really, no. They maybe use less urban slang, but that's about it.

[Robert Carnegie]

Public utterances of Prince Philip, Prince Charles, or
the only slightly less grand Prime Minister David Cameron
are available. Chancellor George Osborne, the guy with
the money in more than one sense, is even posher.
Technically you also have Boris Johnson but nobody
would believe it.

[Robert Carnegie]

Oh, and <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Chelsea>

Sometimes I'm very glad that I'm Scottish.

[Rod Speed]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:km12kl$4kj$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 5/3/13 2:55 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> On 2013-05-03 14:46:38 -0400, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan said:
>>
>>> In article <MPG.2bedb2d8c...@news.newsguy.com>,
>>> J. Clarke <jclark...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> In article <340bce21-ede9-45d8-b680-d707cc1b5161
>>>> @yb1g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, seanea...@hotmail.com says...
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even know
>>>>> how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not*
>>>>> regency.
>>>>> Suggestions?
>>>>
>>>> Define "modern upper class English". Are you talking about the English
>>>> of the British uppah clawsses or something else?
>>>
>>> For the US, just imagine Charles Emerson WInchester or Thurston Howell
>>> III
>>> talking...
>>>
>>> :-)
>>
>> Speaking as a Princeton alumnus who's talked to a Vanderbilt and a
>> couple of the Chases of Chase Manhattan, and whose own ancestry included
>> some old money, let me say that that's flat out wrong. That's how
>> Hollywood thinks upper-class twits should sound; it isn't how they
>> actually DO talk.

> Do they actually talk significantly differently than anyone else these
> days?

Bet they do. Wankers like that normally
do, just because they are wankers.

The British ones certainly do.

> At least, assuming roughly equal education levels?

That's very unlikely indeed unless you mean
only the crudest measure of education level
like primary, middle, high school and tertiary etc.

[J. Clarke]

In article <340bce21-ede9-45d8-b680-d707cc1b5161
@yb1g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, seanea...@hotmail.com says...
>

Oh, you might want to watch Season 9 of "Two and a Half Men", in which
Walden has an upper class British girl friend played by an actress who
is known on formal occasions as "Lady Windsor" and whose husband is
something like 15th in line to the throne. She was criticized
frequently by people who did not know this for her "fake accent".

[Howard Brazee]

Sure there are. And there are upper class Aussie English styles too.
We're not classless.

And multiple styles of upper class English speech.

--
Anybody who agrees with one side all of the time or disagrees with the
other side all of the time is equally guilty of letting others do
their thinking for them.

[Howard Brazee]

On Fri, 3 May 2013 14:55:17 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
wrote:

>> For the US, just imagine Charles Emerson WInchester or Thurston Howell III
>> talking...
>>
>> :-)
>
>Speaking as a Princeton alumnus who's talked to a Vanderbilt and a
>couple of the Chases of Chase Manhattan, and whose own ancestry
>included some old money, let me say that that's flat out wrong. That's
>how Hollywood thinks upper-class twits should sound; it isn't how they
>actually DO talk.

How about the Buckleys?

[Howard Brazee]

On Fri, 03 May 2013 11:56:47 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
wrote:

>I'd suggest looking for video rather than books. But do you mean
>English, American, Canadian, Australian, Indian, or which version of
>English?

Oh, Indian would be difficult - because the author would have to know
the English language as well as they do.

[J. Clarke]

In article <75l8o859k4dtg228c...@4ax.com>,
how...@brazee.net says...

>
> On Fri, 03 May 2013 11:56:47 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I'd suggest looking for video rather than books. But do you mean
> >English, American, Canadian, Australian, Indian, or which version of
> >English?
>
>
> Oh, Indian would be difficult - because the author would have to know
> the English language as well as they do.

And how about English as spoken by a Hungarian princess?

[Howard Brazee]

On Fri, 3 May 2013 19:54:20 -0400, "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net>
wrote:

>Oh, you might want to watch Season 9 of "Two and a Half Men", in which
>Walden has an upper class British girl friend played by an actress who
>is known on formal occasions as "Lady Windsor" and whose husband is
>something like 15th in line to the throne. She was criticized
>frequently by people who did not know this for her "fake accent".

There's a story that a director told Robert Mitchum to use an English
accent. Mitchum asked what kind of English accent, listing a few.
The exasperated director said he didn't care.

When the movie came out, U.S. critics complained about the accent not
being English enough - British critics said he nailed a particular
accent exactly.

[Howard Brazee]

On Fri, 3 May 2013 20:52:00 -0400, "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net>

wrote:

>> >I'd suggest looking for video rather than books. But do you mean
>> >English, American, Canadian, Australian, Indian, or which version of
>> >English?
>>
>>
>> Oh, Indian would be difficult - because the author would have to know
>> the English language as well as they do.
>
>And how about English as spoken by a Hungarian princess?

Her English is too good, he said,
Which clearly indicates that she is foreign.
Whereas others are instructed in their native language
English people aren't.
And although she may have studied with an expert
Dialectician and grammarian,
I can tell that she was born...
Hungarian!
Not only Hungarian, but of royal blood,
she is a princess!

Her blood, he said, is bluer
than the Danube is or ever was
Royalty is absolutely written on her face
She thought that I was taken in
but actually I never was

How could she deceive
another member of her race
I know each language on the map, said he
And she's Hungarian
as the first Hungarian rhapsody

[Robert Bannister]

On 4/05/13 5:45 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> Oh, and <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Chelsea>
>
> Sometimes I'm very glad that I'm Scottish.
>

Surely there used to be a special upper-crust, Edinburgh accent. I have
heard people trying to imitate it in plays.

--
Robert Bannister

[Rod Speed]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote

> Sean wrote

>> I have a character that should speak like that.
>> But I do not even know how they say hello. So
>> I need some reading material, and *Not* regency.

>> Suggestions?

> Public utterances of Prince Philip, Prince Charles,
> or the only slightly less grand Prime Minister
> David Cameron are available.

Trouble is that that doesn't really help us to work
out how Phil asks Liz if she'd like to be fucked etc.

Tho I spose we do know what big ears had to say
to Camilla at one time, tho I'm not sure we ever
actually got to hear the conversation, it was more
likely to have been transcribed or sumfin.

> Chancellor George Osborne, the guy with
> the money in more than one sense, is even posher.

> Technically you also have Boris Johnson
> but nobody would believe it.

I did believe it when it turned out that he is the illegitimate
spawn of some very famous european royal. Not sure that
qualifys him as upper class tho.

[J. Clarke]

In article <nlo8o81pjrofnv34o...@4ax.com>,
how...@brazee.net says...

>
> On Fri, 3 May 2013 19:54:20 -0400, "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Oh, you might want to watch Season 9 of "Two and a Half Men", in which
> >Walden has an upper class British girl friend played by an actress who
> >is known on formal occasions as "Lady Windsor" and whose husband is
> >something like 15th in line to the throne. She was criticized
> >frequently by people who did not know this for her "fake accent".
>
>
> There's a story that a director told Robert Mitchum to use an English
> accent. Mitchum asked what kind of English accent, listing a few.
> The exasperated director said he didn't care.
>
> When the movie came out, U.S. critics complained about the accent not
> being English enough - British critics said he nailed a particular
> accent exactly.

And going the opposite direction, Gwyneth Paltrow, in "Sliding Doors",
was said by the British press to have nailed a dzoen or so British
accents perfectly, sometimes in the same sentence.

[P. Taine]

On Fri, 03 May 2013 18:20:44 -0600, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 4 May 2013 05:59:22 +1000, "Rod Speed"
><rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> wrote in message
>>news:km0ltb$aft$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 2013-05-03 10:15:25 -0400, Sean said:
>>>
>>>> I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even know
>>>> how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not*
>>>> regency.
>>>> Suggestions?
>>>
>>> English English, or American English?
>>
>>There are no upper class american english.
>>
>>Even Churchill's mum wasn't anything like modern.
>
>Sure there are. And there are upper class Aussie English styles too.
>We're not classless.
>
>And multiple styles of upper class English speech.

When we visited a cousin of mine in Melbourne he spoke with a rather broad
Australian accent (to our US ears), but his wife sounded more British than
anything else. When my wife commented about this to her she smiled and said "he
was born on the wrong side of the tracks".

I don't know how general this is, or if it is just Melbourne (though we drove
the length and breadth of the country over the course of four visits (to date)).

P. Taine

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

I mean same degree level. There really isn't THAT much difference
between going to Big Name School and going to Decent Lesser School in
terms of your education; it's mostly reputation and research
opportunities that will differ.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 5/3/13 8:21 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Fri, 3 May 2013 14:55:17 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> For the US, just imagine Charles Emerson WInchester or Thurston Howell III
>>> talking...
>>>
>>> :-)
>>
>> Speaking as a Princeton alumnus who's talked to a Vanderbilt and a
>> couple of the Chases of Chase Manhattan, and whose own ancestry
>> included some old money, let me say that that's flat out wrong. That's
>> how Hollywood thinks upper-class twits should sound; it isn't how they
>> actually DO talk.
>
> How about the Buckleys?
>

The Joe Buckleys usually curse the universe before dying in amusing ways.

[Rod Speed]

"Howard Brazee" <how...@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:75l8o859k4dtg228c...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 03 May 2013 11:56:47 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
> wrote:
>
>>I'd suggest looking for video rather than books. But do you mean
>>English, American, Canadian, Australian, Indian, or which version of
>>English?
>
>
> Oh, Indian would be difficult - because the author would have to know
> the English language as well as they do.

Nope, just be an accurate recorder.

[Rod Speed]

"P. Taine" <us...@domaine.invalid> wrote in message
news:r8t8o8l486nu0h87v...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 03 May 2013 18:20:44 -0600, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net>
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 4 May 2013 05:59:22 +1000, "Rod Speed"
>><rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> wrote in message
>>>news:km0ltb$aft$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>> On 2013-05-03 10:15:25 -0400, Sean said:
>>>>
>>>>> I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even know
>>>>> how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not*
>>>>> regency.
>>>>> Suggestions?
>>>>
>>>> English English, or American English?
>>>
>>>There are no upper class american english.
>>>
>>>Even Churchill's mum wasn't anything like modern.
>>
>>Sure there are. And there are upper class Aussie English styles too.
>>We're not classless.
>>
>>And multiple styles of upper class English speech.
>
> When we visited a cousin of mine in Melbourne he spoke with a rather broad
> Australian accent (to our US ears), but his wife sounded more British than
> anything else. When my wife commented about this to her she smiled and
> said "he
> was born on the wrong side of the tracks".

> I don't know how general this is,

Quite common.

> or if it is just Melbourne

Nope.

> (though we drove the length and breadth of the
> country over the course of four visits (to date)).

But likely didn't talk to many of the squatters.
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/squatters
2 obviously.

[Rod Speed]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message

news:km1soa$vvs$1...@dont-email.me...

That's not so true of primary and secondary education.

Have a look at that magnificent british 7 up series.

The upper class kids are completely fucking hilarious,
particularly the one that ended up as a legal wanker.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058578/

[David DeLaney]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>Sure there are. And there are upper class Aussie English styles too.
>We're not classless.
>
>And multiple styles of upper class English speech.

"Why cahn't the English teach their children how to speak? / Norwegians learn
Norwegian; the Greeks are taught their Greek..."

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 2013-05-03 20:21:34 -0400, Howard Brazee said:

> On Fri, 3 May 2013 14:55:17 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> For the US, just imagine Charles Emerson WInchester or Thurston Howell III
>>> talking...
>>>
>>> :-)
>>
>> Speaking as a Princeton alumnus who's talked to a Vanderbilt and a
>> couple of the Chases of Chase Manhattan, and whose own ancestry
>> included some old money, let me say that that's flat out wrong. That's
>> how Hollywood thinks upper-class twits should sound; it isn't how they
>> actually DO talk.
>
> How about the Buckleys?

No idea; I never met one. If you mean the guy I saw on TV, he sounded
like a pompous twit to me, not upper class so much as a Yalie trying to
sound intellectual.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

If you're going to respond to Rod Speed, I'm leaving.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

I respond to everyone until they annoy me or I get bored. Rod sometimes
says something intelligent. Once he goes into his "I"M RIGHT AND YOU'RE
WRONG" mode, he's boring, rather like once Terry starts going for the
Pee-Wee Herman. I also stop if I actually find myself emotionally
reacting in a negative fashion. That doesn't happen very often but if it
does I know it's time to stop, whether I'm right or wrong in the
discussion.

[Richard R. Hershberger]

On May 3, 3:23 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"

<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> On 5/3/13 2:55 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2013-05-03 14:46:38 -0400, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan said:
>

> >> In article <MPG.2bedb2d8c5f030b4989...@news.newsguy.com>,

> >> J. Clarke <jclarkeuse...@cox.net> wrote:
> >>> In article <340bce21-ede9-45d8-b680-d707cc1b5161

> >>> @yb1g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, seanearly...@hotmail.com says...

>
> >>>> I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even know
> >>>> how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not*
> >>>> regency.
> >>>> Suggestions?
>
> >>> Define "modern upper class English".  Are you talking about the English
> >>> of the British uppah clawsses or something else?
>
> >> For the US, just imagine Charles Emerson WInchester or Thurston Howell
> >> III
> >> talking...
>
> >> :-)
>
> > Speaking as a Princeton alumnus who's talked to a Vanderbilt and a
> > couple of the Chases of Chase Manhattan, and whose own ancestry included
> > some old money, let me say that that's flat out wrong.  That's how
> > Hollywood thinks upper-class twits should sound; it isn't how they
> > actually DO talk.
>
>         Do they actually talk significantly differently than anyone else these

> days? At least, assuming roughly equal education levels?

"These days" being the key. There certainly used to be an upper class
Philadelphia accent. I am told that Katharine Hepburn got it right in
Philadelphia Story. No one below a rather high certain age talks that
way now.

In the case of Charles Emerson Winchester, this was an actor some
thirty years ago portraying a character some thirty years before that,
who was very class-conscious and conservative, and therefore likely to
adopt a conservative upper-class accent. So the question is whether
this is how upper class New Englanders spoke a century ago. The
answer is, heck if I know.

Richard R. Hershberger

[Richard R. Hershberger]

On May 3, 8:22 pm, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 03 May 2013 11:56:47 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net>

> wrote:
>
> >I'd suggest looking for video rather than books.  But do you mean
> >English, American, Canadian, Australian, Indian, or which version of
> >English?
>
> Oh, Indian would be difficult - because the author would have to know
> the English language as well as they do.
>

I don't expect you are being entirely serious, but if you are, you
might consider this: if the data don't match the model, even after
their accuracy is double and triple checked, is this a problem with
the data or the model?

Richard R. Hershberger

[Robert Carnegie]

Captured from <http://www.comedy.co.uk/guide/tv/qi/episodes/3/2/> -

In which Stephen Fry tells the [alleged] story of Maggie Smith, who was
playing Scottish Miss Jean Brodie in The Pride of Miss Jean Brodie.
She could not do a Scottish accent, but a friend of hers had an aunt
in Morningside [Edinburgh]. Smith phoned her up asking her out to tea
with a tape recorder to which the aunt said, "My dear, I have been told
I have no accent whatever," and put the phone down insulted.

In Morningside, sex means large bags for carrying goods such as coals.

But it's not the Chelsea /accents/ I'm worried about. It's the
"structured reality television series" business.

At best, these people are roleplaying scenes from their actual lives
and relationships for the amusement of the TV audience. Quite badly,
according to some viewers.

At worst, they have scriptwriters to plan their lives out for them
and they /still/ have a drama overdose. Or maybe that's /why/.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Yeah.

My great-aunt Nora (who was born in the 19th century and died in 1972,
give or take a year) had an upper-class New York accent -- I suppose my
grandparents on that side probably did, too, but they died before I was
born. Nobody talks like that any more.

This was useful to me once -- I was on a stunt panel at a convention
once where we were supposed to appear as dead authors who had been
among our major influences, so I was Robert W. Chambers. Who was an
upper-class New Yorker a decade or two older than Aunt Nora, so I
imitated her accent. Some panel attendees said they'd only heard
people talk like that in old movies; others had never heard it at all.

> In the case of Charles Emerson Winchester, this was an actor some
> thirty years ago portraying a character some thirty years before that,
> who was very class-conscious and conservative, and therefore likely to
> adopt a conservative upper-class accent. So the question is whether
> this is how upper class New Englanders spoke a century ago. The
> answer is, heck if I know.

It's reasonably close, I think; I recognized that accent from people
I'd heard as a kid in New England. But I haven't heard anyone real
talk like that in at least forty years.

[Dan Goodman]

I've heard a Dublin-area Irish-English accent which sounded almost like
RP -- but with r's pronounced as strongly as in Scottish.



--
Dan Goodman

[Dan Goodman]

This topic really belongs in rec.arts.sf.composition; hence the
crossposting.

Recommended nonfiction: Language in the British Isles / edited by Peter
Trudgill. Cambridge University Press, 1984.

Dan Goodman

[Howard Brazee]

On Sat, 4 May 2013 00:23:54 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
wrote:

>> How about the Buckleys?
>
>No idea; I never met one. If you mean the guy I saw on TV, he sounded
>like a pompous twit to me, not upper class so much as a Yalie trying to
>sound intellectual.

Those aren't mutually exclusive characteristics.

[Howard Brazee]

On Fri, 3 May 2013 22:35:18 -0400, "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net>
wrote:

>> There's a story that a director told Robert Mitchum to use an English
>> accent. Mitchum asked what kind of English accent, listing a few.
>> The exasperated director said he didn't care.
>>
>> When the movie came out, U.S. critics complained about the accent not
>> being English enough - British critics said he nailed a particular
>> accent exactly.
>
>And going the opposite direction, Gwyneth Paltrow, in "Sliding Doors",
>was said by the British press to have nailed a dzoen or so British
>accents perfectly, sometimes in the same sentence.

LOL!!!

[Robert Bannister]

Although the main difference is between country and city, there are a
number of different accents in Australia, and the "Kath and Kim" accent
used by our prime minister is not at all the only broad city accent.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 4/05/13 12:28 PM, David DeLaney wrote:
> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>> Sure there are. And there are upper class Aussie English styles too.
>> We're not classless.
>>
>> And multiple styles of upper class English speech.
>
> "Why cahn't the English teach their children how to speak? / Norwegians learn
> Norwegian; the Greeks are taught their Greek..."

And that is an interesting proposition once you think about it. What
children are taught at school by no means represents what they speak at
home, and that is no different in Norway and Greece than anywhere else.
--
Robert Bannister

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 2013-05-04 20:48:36 -0400, Howard Brazee said:

> On Sat, 4 May 2013 00:23:54 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> How about the Buckleys?
>>
>> No idea; I never met one. If you mean the guy I saw on TV, he sounded
>> like a pompous twit to me, not upper class so much as a Yalie trying to
>> sound intellectual.
>
> Those aren't mutually exclusive characteristics.

Good point. Except that generally the true upper class doesn't bother
with poses -- they don't CARE what the other classes think of them.

[A.G.McDowell]

On 03/05/2013 15:15, Sean wrote:
> I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even know
> how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not*
> regency.
> Suggestions?

The BBC has been a homogenising influence on accents of all sorts in the
UK, and the upper classes were of course its first customers. Also,
appearing obviously upper class is strongly penalised in politics, the
occupation of many of the most visible upper classes. As a result, there
is no longer a distinctive modern upper class accent. Many upper class
men were educated at Eton and would have picked up their accent from
there - See e.g. complaints such as
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10024085/Sarah-Wollaston-criticises-number-of-Old-Etonians-in-Government.html.
The current Prime Minister, David Cameron, is one example - but he
doesn't sound very distinctive to me, and neither do his colleagues.
Neither did a load of ex-public school types I encountered at unversity
(but I have a strong Northern Ireland accent, so I may not be very good
at picking out the details of English accents). Prince Charles has an
accent from the public school Gordonstoun (where public here means
exclusive and expensive) but it is small, based in Scotland, and
slightly odd - and Prince Charles is getting on a bit to be modern.
Younger members of the royal family have less distinctive accents.

If you want a distinctive accent, you could give your upper class
character the affectation of attempting a lower class or region accent -
possibly doing it badly.

There certainly used to be an upper class accent - a lot of people would
point to the film "Brief Encounter". Allegedly, many speakers of that
were affecting it or had learned it to appear upper class. A nice page
referencing this film is
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/estuary/queen.htm which note that the
Queen's accent has changed - it is now less obviously upper class. (If I
was speaking this with my Father present he would butt in and claim that
the Queen might not be regarded as proper English upper class by the
upper classes, since she is from a German family and married a Greek,
but he is very left wing and likes grinding axes).

[A.G.McDowell]

On 04/05/2013 03:29, Rod Speed wrote:
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote
>> Sean wrote
>
>>> I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even
>>> know how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not*
>>> regency.
>
>>> Suggestions?
>
>> Public utterances of Prince Philip, Prince Charles, or the only
>> slightly less grand Prime Minister David Cameron are available.
>
> Trouble is that that doesn't really help us to work
> out how Phil asks Liz if she'd like to be fucked etc.

(trimmed)
I haven't read them, but you could always try the novels of Jilly Cooper
- or her non-fiction (but dated)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Class-Jilly-Cooper-OBE/dp/0552146625.

[Rod Speed]

A.G.McDowell <andrew-...@o2.co.uk> wrote

> Sean wrote

>> I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even know
>> how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not* regency.
>> Suggestions?

> The BBC has been a homogenising influence on accents of all sorts in the
> UK, and the upper classes were of course its first customers.

I doubt the BBC had any effect on their accents tho. One their style in
spades.

> Also, appearing obviously upper class is strongly penalised in politics,
> the occupation of many of the most visible upper classes.

But only a tiny subset of the upper class.

> As a result, there is no longer a distinctive modern upper class accent.

There never was.

> Many upper class men were educated at Eton and would have picked up their
> accent from there -

Those upper class kids in the 7 Up series were too
young to have got it that way and had it anyway.

> See e.g. complaints such as
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10024085/Sarah-Wollaston-criticises-number-of-Old-Etonians-in-Government.html.
> The current Prime Minister, David Cameron, is one example - but he doesn't
> sound very distinctive to me, and neither do his colleagues. Neither did a
> load of ex-public school types I encountered at unversity (but I have a
> strong Northern Ireland accent, so I may not be very good at picking out
> the details of English accents). Prince Charles has an accent from the
> public school Gordonstoun

Maybe.

> (where public here means exclusive and expensive) but it is small, based
> in Scotland, and slightly odd - and Prince Charles is getting on a bit to
> be modern.

> Younger members of the royal family have less distinctive accents.

And Liz hasn't got a very distinctive accent either.

Neither did her mum.

> If you want a distinctive accent, you could give your upper class
> character the affectation of attempting a lower class or region accent -
> possibly doing it badly.

I doubt very many at all are that stupid.

Even Tony Benn didn't.

> There certainly used to be an upper class accent - a lot of people would
> point to the film "Brief Encounter". Allegedly, many speakers of that
> were affecting it or had learned it to appear upper class. A nice page
> referencing this film is http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/estuary/queen.htm
> which note that the Queen's accent has changed - it is now less obviously
> upper class.

That's certainly true.

But it wasn't true of Mountbatten or Phil.

[Don Kuenz]

Many (all?) of John LeClarre's upper class characters in his Smiley
franchise "drawled in that Belgravia cockney which is the final
vulgarity of the English upper class."

Belgravia Cockney

He spoke English as if it were his second language, but it
was the only one he had. He spoke in what my son Adrian
tells me is called 'slur', which is a slack-mouthed
Belgravia cockney that contrives to make mice out of mouse
and dispenses almost entirely with the formality of
pronouns. It has a vocabulary, naturally: nothing rises
but it escalates, no opportunity is without a window, no
minor event occurs that is not sensational. It also has a
pedantic inaccuracy which is supposed to distinguish it
from the unwashed, and explains gems like 'as for you and I'.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n02/christopher-tayler/belgravia-cockney

--
Don Kuenz

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sun, 05 May 2013 06:33:02 +0100, "A.G.McDowell"
<andrew-...@o2.co.uk> wrote in
<news:km4qnm$4ch$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> The BBC has been a homogenising influence on accents of
> all sorts in the UK,

True.

> and the upper classes were of course its first customers.

Other way about: traditional BBC was based on (then) RP.

[...]

Brian

[Rod Speed]

"A.G.McDowell" <andrew-...@o2.co.uk> wrote in message
news:km50p1$rse$1...@dont-email.me...

Trouble with that approach is that its just one person's fantasy.

I doubt even the butler knows and he's been sworn to secrecy.

[Brenda Clough]

On 5/3/2013 12:56 PM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

> Sean<seanea...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even know
>> how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not*
>> regency.
>> Suggestions?
>

> I'd suggest looking for video rather than books. But do you mean
> English, American, Canadian, Australian, Indian, or which version of
> English?

I'd suggest selecting a model. Do you want the character to sound like
Prince Andrew, or Donald Trump. or what? Fix on a person and then start
scouting for YouTube video. You can listen to many of these people on
your computer.

Brenda


--
My latest novel SPEAK TO OUR DESIRES is available exclusively from Book
View Cafe.
http://www.bookviewcafe.com/index.php/Brenda-Clough/Novels/Speak-to-Our-Desires-Chapter-01

[Robert Bannister]

And RP was originally based on the speech of upper middle class
professors - what we called posh.
--
Robert Bannister

[Joy Beeson]

On Sat, 04 May 2013 00:30:37 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

> I respond to everyone until they annoy me or I get bored.

But when you respond to Rod, you annoy and bore everyone else.

This is not polite.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 06 May 2013 09:20:03 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in
<news:auoeq3...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

That's a bit too specific. It would be more accurate to say
that the term was originally applied to the common accent of
the public schools (in the British sense) and the old
universities.

Brian

[Doug Wickström]

On 3 May 2013 18:46:38 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan

<tednolan>) wrote:

>In article <MPG.2bedb2d8c...@news.newsguy.com>,
>J. Clarke <jclark...@cox.net> wrote:
>>In article <340bce21-ede9-45d8-b680-d707cc1b5161
>>@yb1g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, seanea...@hotmail.com says...
>>>

>>> I have a character that should speak like that. But I do not even know
>>> how they say hello. So I need some reading material, and *Not*
>>> regency.
>>> Suggestions?
>>

>>Define "modern upper class English". Are you talking about the English
>>of the British uppah clawsses or something else?
>
>For the US, just imagine Charles Emerson WInchester or Thurston Howell III
>talking...

They're Hollywood fiction. Try our own David Dyer-Bennet. He's
a real person.
--
Doug Wickström

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 5/5/13 9:13 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sat, 04 May 2013 00:30:37 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> I respond to everyone until they annoy me or I get bored.
>
> But when you respond to Rod, you annoy and bore everyone else.
>
> This is not polite.
>

Then skip messages in which I respond to someone you don't like. I'm
not changing posting habits of nearly 30 years because suddenly people
have issues with them. (Or because they've had issues with them, but
haven't said anything about them for a decade or two, either).

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sun, 05 May 2013 22:13:12 -0300, Joy Beeson
<jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote in
<news:ps0eo81ro27e9ufc3...@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Sat, 04 May 2013 00:30:37 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>> I respond to everyone until they annoy me or I get bored.

> But when you respond to Rod, you annoy and bore everyone
> else.

This is not true.

[...]

Brian

[Rod Speed]

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
news:14zbwht4yf5cd$.djvxuwvx9ecz.dlg@40tude.net...

I'm not convinced that there ever was a common accent with those.

[Robert Bannister]

I think more particularly Oxford University and possibly Cambridge
rather than the public schools which I fancy had an even more outr�
pronunciation. I went to a lesser known one myself and that way of
speaking still comes back occasionally.

--
Robert Bannister

[Brian M. Scott]

On Tue, 07 May 2013 11:55:42 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in
<news:aurc9u...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 6/05/13 11:07 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:

>> On Mon, 06 May 2013 09:20:03 +0800, Robert Bannister
>> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in
>> <news:auoeq3...@mid.individual.net> in
>> rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

>>> And RP was originally based on the speech of upper
>>> middle class professors - what we called posh.

>> That's a bit too specific. It would be more accurate to
>> say that the term was originally applied to the common
>> accent of the public schools (in the British sense) and
>> the old universities.

> I think more particularly Oxford University and possibly
> Cambridge rather than the public schools which I fancy
> had an even more outr� pronunciation. I went to a lesser
> known one myself and that way of speaking still comes
> back occasionally.

In fact Daniel Jones, who usually gets the credit for
introducing the term 'Received Pronunciation' (though a
couple others had actually used it earlier), originally
referred to the accent as 'Public School English'. It came
to be particularly associated with Oxford partly because it
was the common accent at the University and partly because
the OED gave Oxford considerable visibility and prestige in
matters of language.

Brian

[William December Starr]

In article <km82l2$lcv$1...@dont-email.me>,

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:

> On 5/5/13 9:13 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I respond to everyone until they annoy me or I get bored.
>>
>> But when you respond to Rod, you annoy and bore everyone else.
>>
>> This is not polite.
>
> Then skip messages in which I respond to someone you don't
> like. I'm not changing posting habits of nearly 30 years because
> suddenly people have issues with them. (Or because they've had
> issues with them, but haven't said anything about them for a
> decade or two, either).

Fine, but be aware that you _are_ annoying people.

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <MPG.2bedbd645...@news.newsguy.com>,
"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> said:

> Oh, you might want to watch Season 9 of "Two and a Half Men", in
> which Walden has an upper class British girl friend played by an
> actress who is known on formal occasions as "Lady Windsor" and
> whose husband is something like 15th in line to the throne. She
> was criticized frequently by people who did not know this for her
> "fake accent".

There was an inside joke on an episode of CBS' CIA-related espionage
drama "The Agency" (2001-2003) involving the actor Jason O'Mara, who
played an American and did a job of suppressing his Irish roots.
The story involved the IRA and O'Mara's character went undercover
as an Irishman. At the end of the episode, the ex-IRA man who'd
befriended him told him "And you need to work on your Irish accent,
lad."

-- wds

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

I've been doing THAT for almost 50 years.

Really, if it's that much of a sin, I should have been pilloried
decades ago, when I actually kept doing it as long as the other guy
responded. Nowadays I'm hardly one of the major offenders; I stop
responding after a few exchanges. And Rod actually occasionally has
something reasonable to say (really, I've been watching the threads),
unlike say Starmaker or that Murdoc guy.

[J. Clarke]

In article <kme8ud$1a0$1...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com
says...

A major difference between the Internet and real life is that in real
life if one is an obnoxious pest eventually somebody punches one's
lights out and demonstrates the error of one's ways. Online one can be
an obnoxious pest in perpetuity unless one manages to tick off a
homicidial maniac with mad hacking skillz.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

I'd say that gives the obnoxious pest a reason to have the
light-puncher arrested for assault, and to believe they're unfairly
put-upon and thus have license to be MORE obnoxious.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Wed, 08 May 2013 15:30:46 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
<news:kme8ud$1a0$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> And Rod actually occasionally has something reasonable to
> say (really, I've been watching the threads), unlike say
> Starmaker or that Murdoc guy.

Rod strikes me as being both quite intelligent and quite
knowledgeable; he just has a ... tic, let's say, that
renders suspect any response after someone has disagreed
with him.

Brian

[J. Clarke]

In article <kmedm1$u4d$1...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com

Only if he can prove who did it. In the military they call it a
"blanket party"--throw a blanket over the SOB, punch the crap out of
him, leave the area. When he goes to file charges everybody accused has
an alibi.

I remember one obnoxious pest being such to a girl at a party, and her
date finally had enough and coldcocked him. Seems that there were a
dozen witnesses to the fact that he ran into a door.

And obnoxious pests are often obnoxious to cops, which has its own whole
world of consequences.

[Howard Brazee]

On Wed, 8 May 2013 18:22:42 -0400, "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net>
wrote:

>Only if he can prove who did it. In the military they call it a
>"blanket party"--throw a blanket over the SOB, punch the crap out of
>him, leave the area. When he goes to file charges everybody accused has
>an alibi.

One of Randall Garret' Lord Darcey stories played against Agatha
Christie's Orient Express logic here.

--
Anybody who agrees with one side all of the time or disagrees with the
other side all of the time is equally guilty of letting others do
their thinking for them.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 5/8/13 8:58 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Wed, 8 May 2013 18:22:42 -0400, "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Only if he can prove who did it. In the military they call it a
>> "blanket party"--throw a blanket over the SOB, punch the crap out of
>> him, leave the area. When he goes to file charges everybody accused has
>> an alibi.

Of course, anyone who'd do that to someone just because they found them
obnoxious is a barbarian. No matter HOW obnoxious you find someone,
assault is not justified. If they take a poke at you, fine, flatten 'em.
But if you don't like what they SAY, either ignore them, or say
something else back.

>
> One of Randall Garret' Lord Darcey stories played against Agatha
> Christie's Orient Express logic here.

Heh. Yeah, that was the one in which Poirot's solution was ridiculed.

[David DeLaney]

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

> Of course, anyone who'd do that to someone just because they found them
>obnoxious is a barbarian. No matter HOW obnoxious you find someone,
>assault is not justified. If they take a poke at you, fine, flatten 'em.
>But if you don't like what they SAY, either ignore them, or say
>something else back.

It usually only takes a medium amount of verbal skill to get THEM to be the
person who sputters, runs out of ripostes, and takes a poke at you, reducing
it to an already-solved case, too.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[J. Clarke]

In article <kmf3ig$74o$1...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com
says...

>
> On 5/8/13 8:58 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> > On Wed, 8 May 2013 18:22:42 -0400, "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Only if he can prove who did it. In the military they call it a
> >> "blanket party"--throw a blanket over the SOB, punch the crap out of
> >> him, leave the area. When he goes to file charges everybody accused has
> >> an alibi.
>
> Of course, anyone who'd do that to someone just because they found them
> obnoxious is a barbarian.

Yep. Most humans are.

> No matter HOW obnoxious you find someone,
> assault is not justified.

Which is little consolation to the assaultee.

> If they take a poke at you, fine, flatten 'em.
> But if you don't like what they SAY, either ignore them, or say
> something else back.

Or teach them some manners.

[J. Clarke]

In article <kmf3ig$74o$1...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com
says...
>

> On 5/8/13 8:58 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> > On Wed, 8 May 2013 18:22:42 -0400, "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Only if he can prove who did it. In the military they call it a
> >> "blanket party"--throw a blanket over the SOB, punch the crap out of
> >> him, leave the area. When he goes to file charges everybody accused has
> >> an alibi.
>
> Of course, anyone who'd do that to someone just because they found them
> obnoxious is a barbarian. No matter HOW obnoxious you find someone,
> assault is not justified. If they take a poke at you, fine, flatten 'em.
> But if you don't like what they SAY, either ignore them, or say
> something else back.

I should add that there are other solutions. Like the obnoxious preachy
"Christian" racist who kept berating people for drinking and premarital
sex and interracial dating and so on. He calmed down a lot after
somebody got pictures of him in flagrante with two black Jamaican
hookers--you couldn't tell that he was drunk from the pictures but he
was that too.

[Kip Williams]

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote, On 5/8/13 11:05 PM:

> On 5/8/13 8:58 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:

>> One of Randall Garret' Lord Darcey stories played against Agatha
>> Christie's Orient Express logic here.
>
> Heh. Yeah, that was the one in which Poirot's solution was ridiculed.

See also Raymond Chandler's musing on mysteries.


Kip W
rasfw

[Scott Lurndal]

"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> writes:
>In article <kmedm1$u4d$1...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com
>says...
>>
>> On 5/8/13 4:37 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

>> > A major difference between the Internet and real life is that in real
>> > life if one is an obnoxious pest eventually somebody punches one's
>> > lights out and demonstrates the error of one's ways.
>>
>>
>> I'd say that gives the obnoxious pest a reason to have the
>> light-puncher arrested for assault, and to believe they're unfairly
>> put-upon and thus have license to be MORE obnoxious.
>
>Only if he can prove who did it. In the military they call it a
>"blanket party"--throw a blanket over the SOB, punch the crap out of
>him, leave the area. When he goes to file charges everybody accused has
>an alibi.
>

You don't see any problem with this, do you?

[Andy Leighton]

The blanket thrower would still be committing an offence - that of aiding
and abetting.

--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

[J. Clarke]

In article <9%Nit.22937$OI7....@fed02.iad>, sc...@slp53.sl.home says...

Being the kind of guy who would be under the blanket, I see certain
disadvantages. But it is effective.

[J. Clarke]

In article <slrnkonebi...@azaal.plus.com>, an...@azaal.plus.com
says...

>
> On Thu, 09 May 2013 14:01:41 GMT, Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> > "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> writes:
> >>In article <kmedm1$u4d$1...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com
> >>says...
> >>>
> >>> On 5/8/13 4:37 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> >
> >>> > A major difference between the Internet and real life is that in real
> >>> > life if one is an obnoxious pest eventually somebody punches one's
> >>> > lights out and demonstrates the error of one's ways.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I'd say that gives the obnoxious pest a reason to have the
> >>> light-puncher arrested for assault, and to believe they're unfairly
> >>> put-upon and thus have license to be MORE obnoxious.
> >>
> >>Only if he can prove who did it. In the military they call it a
> >>"blanket party"--throw a blanket over the SOB, punch the crap out of
> >>him, leave the area. When he goes to file charges everybody accused has
> >>an alibi.
> >
> > You don't see any problem with this, do you?
>
> The blanket thrower would still be committing an offence - that of aiding
> and abetting.

Which is irrelevant if it can't be proven that he did it.

[David Johnston]

On 5/8/2013 11:19 PM, David DeLaney wrote:
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> Of course, anyone who'd do that to someone just because they found them
>> obnoxious is a barbarian. No matter HOW obnoxious you find someone,
>> assault is not justified. If they take a poke at you, fine, flatten 'em.
>> But if you don't like what they SAY, either ignore them, or say
>> something else back.
>
> It usually only takes a medium amount of verbal skill to get THEM to be the
> person who sputters, runs out of ripostes,

Not if they approach it like an internet jerk and just keep repeating
the same insults to your intellect over and over again.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Interesting. I was the kind of guy who would be under the blanket, and
that would have been *SPECTACULARLY* ineffective with me. It would make
me MORE obnoxious, and also very interested in arranging the same event
with covert recording on the assailants.

Bullies at my schools were perplexed by this tendency of me to get up,
dust myself off, and repeat the same thing that got me assaulted.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

I know you are, but what am -- oh, wait, sorry. Terry influence again.

[Scott Lurndal]

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

-salvor hardin

[Kurt Busiek]

Also, often, the first.

The incompetent have a short list of refuges.

The question is, where is violence on the refuge list for the comptent?
Third? Seventh? Twenty-ninth? If it's not the last refuge of the
competent, what comes _after_ violence for them? Dead baby jokes?
Marimba solos?

kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Because the competent resort to it much earlier.

I would say more that violence is the FIRST refuge of the barbaric,
competent or otherwise.

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2013-05-09 19:23:36 +0000, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"

After all, there are subsequent refuges: Fleeing, for one, and abject
surrender.

The incompetent probably have to resort to those a lot, especially if
they're incompetent at violence.

And if they're incompetent at fleeing, too, well…

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Yeah, I'd say that violence is about the middle refuge of the competent
and non-barbaric. You TRY to deal with things non-violently when it's
reasonably possible, but you don't wait until it's too late, either.

[David DeLaney]

True. But Things Work Different On The Internet Than In Real Life, goes the
mantra, and a sardonic smile, for example, goes a long way towards making them
feel they're not in control of Mr. Situation and getting their dander up.

Or so I hear.

Dave, it would be CRUEL to experiment in person on persons, of course

[William December Starr]

In article <MPG.2bf4f2e6f...@news.newsguy.com>,
"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> said:

> sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com says...

>
>> No matter HOW obnoxious you find someone,
>> assault is not justified.
>
> Which is little consolation to the assaultee.
>
>> If they take a poke at you, fine, flatten 'em.
>> But if you don't like what they SAY, either ignore them, or say
>> something else back.
>
> Or teach them some manners.

Isn't that what the assault is for?

-- wds

[J. Clarke]

In article <kmgoed$glm$1...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com
says...

Works fine for school bullies. Not so much for people whose job is
killing people and breaking things.

[J. Clarke]

In article <kmhene$9ns$1...@panix2.panix.com>, wds...@panix.com says...

Bingo.

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Wed, 8 May 2013 16:37:54 -0400, "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net>
wrote:

[snip]

>A major difference between the Internet and real life is that in real
>life if one is an obnoxious pest eventually somebody punches one's

>lights out and demonstrates the error of one's ways. Online one can be
>an obnoxious pest in perpetuity unless one manages to tick off a
>homicidial maniac with mad hacking skillz.

Axe or computer?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

If they did that level of damage, either I'd be dead, or it would be a
whole new level of planning for me. It wouldn't stop me, just make me
absolutely determined to demonstrate that I don't throw the first punch,
but I damn well arrange for someone to throw the last. By attacking me,
they'd be demonstrating that they were the bad guys and I was the good
guy, regardless of my obnoxiousness or lack thereof.

If I was dead, well, I wouldn't care any more.

[J. Clarke]

In article <lu5po898h1km6lnat...@4ax.com>, ge...@telus.net
says...

Possibly both--computer to find the so and so, axe to do him in,
although the tendency seems to be to use the computer kind for location
and ranging and the postal service as a delivery system.

[J. Clarke]

In article <kmija7$jm$1...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com
says...

They wouldn't do that level of damage the first time. You might have
bruises but you'd still be fully functional--the Army doesn't really get
too upset about what its soldiers due to each other until the situation
reaches the point of damaging Army property (which includes soldiers).

> It wouldn't stop me, just make me
> absolutely determined to demonstrate that I don't throw the first punch,
> but I damn well arrange for someone to throw the last.

And you will succeed. Military bases are dangerous places and
battlefields even more so. Eventually you will step on a mine or get in
the way of a bullet or fall off of a tank into the path of another or
walk into a rotor blade or, well, are you getting the idea?

> By attacking me,
> they'd be demonstrating that they were the bad guys and I was the good
> guy, regardless of my obnoxiousness or lack thereof.

And the fact that you see it that way would indicate to them that you
still needes additional "attitude adjustment".

And by esclating your obnoxiousness, eventually you would arrange that
for yourself.

Just the fact that someone punching you out makes you want to get even
instead of get pointers says that you don't have the right attitude to
be in the military.

[David DeLaney]

J. Clarke <jclark...@cox.net> wrote:
>sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com says...

>> If they did that level of damage, either I'd be dead, or it would be a
>> whole new level of planning for me.
>
>They wouldn't do that level of damage the first time. You might have
>bruises but you'd still be fully functional--the Army doesn't really get
>too upset about what its soldiers due to each other until the situation
>reaches the point of damaging Army property (which includes soldiers).

And then they get REALLY determined to impress upon one that one does NOT want
to do that.

>> It wouldn't stop me, just make me
>> absolutely determined to demonstrate that I don't throw the first punch,
>> but I damn well arrange for someone to throw the last.
>
>And you will succeed. Military bases are dangerous places and
>battlefields even more so. Eventually you will step on a mine or get in
>the way of a bullet or fall off of a tank into the path of another or
>walk into a rotor blade or, well, are you getting the idea?

And, connected with the above, is why they _train_ the heck out of you to try
to get you alert and avoiding the various dangers as much as possible; _you_
aren't allowed to damage the Army property that is yourself, either.

>Just the fact that someone punching you out makes you want to get even
>instead of get pointers says that you don't have the right attitude to
>be in the military.

What if he wants to get pointers, and learn counters, and practice, and STILL
get even too? Note that it's not based on them punching him out, it's based on
them not ... finding the right words isn't too well working here ... not having
the right to DO so. Instructor, drill sergeant, etc., fine; in the bunk after
lights-out from anonymous cob-arracksers? NOT FINE.

Dave

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

It's more a matter of there is *NO* level of verbal obnoxiousness that
justifies assault; initiating physical force is pretty much
automatically wrong (the only exception I can think of is if it is clear
your opponent is ABOUT to initiate physical force on you). If you do
that, you are not worthy to be in the military at all. That's what
bullies and barbarians do, not trained soldiers in the modern military.
If what the person you view as obnoxious (and one should note that
"obnoxious" is often strongly in the eye of the beholder) actually goes
to criminal levels of verbal harassment, why that's your cue to call in
the police.

Hell, even in a civilization where it's accepted that some verbal
insults are worthy of death, the CIVILIZED way to do it is to challenge
the insulter to a duel, not sneak up on him and beat him up in a group
because you're too much of a coward and a wuss to do it face-to-face.

[Brian M. Scott]

On 9 May 2013 20:24:14 -0400, William December Starr
<wds...@panix.com> wrote in
<news:kmhene$9ns$1...@panix2.panix.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:

Probably partly, but I rather think that in most cases the
perpetrators are out for revenge as much as anything else.

Brian

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 10 May 2013 14:23:30 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
<news:kmjdo7$q97$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> It's more a matter of there is *NO* level of verbal
> obnoxiousness that justifies assault; initiating physical
> force is pretty much automatically wrong (the only
> exception I can think of is if it is clear your opponent
> is ABOUT to initiate physical force on you). If you do
> that, you are not worthy to be in the military at all.
> That's what bullies and barbarians do, not trained

> soldiers in the modern military. [...]

Unfortunately, in recent years the leadership have been
trying to sell soldiers the idea that they are 'warriors',
which at least to me strongly connotes something rather
different from trained, disciplined soldiers.

Brian

[Wayne Throop]

: "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu>
: Unfortunately, in recent years the leadership have been trying to sell

: soldiers the idea that they are 'warriors', which at least to me
: strongly connotes something rather different from trained, disciplined
: soldiers.

"I am not a man of the military. That was the mistake Kenebuck made.
That was why he thought that stripped of military elements,
I would be easy to kill."
"Then what are you?"
"I am a man of war."

--- Ian Graeme, in "The Dorsai" (short story)

And there's not much more disciplined than a Dorsai.
Of course, Dorsai are fictional, so it may not work so smoothly IRL.

:: "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com>
:: It's more a matter of there is *NO* level of verbal obnoxiousness

:: that justifies assault; initiating physical force is pretty much
:: automatically wrong (the only exception I can think of is if it is
:: clear your opponent is ABOUT to initiate physical force on you). If
:: you do that, you are not worthy to be in the military at all. That's
:: what bullies and barbarians do, not trained soldiers in the modern
:: military. [...]

And indeed in the short story, he was very disciplined, and did not
commit assault, nor even battery, despite quite a high level of
obnoxiousness, and/or offense given. Still managed to get
Kennebuck... punished.

"The murder of Carolyn Polhemus remains unsolved. [... But there ...]
was a crime. There was a victim. And there is Punishment."
--- closing soliloquy from "Presumed Innocent"

"Those who do evil to others - the killers, the rapists, psychos,
sadists - you will come to know me well. Frank Castle is dead.
Call me... The Punisher."
--- closing soliloquy from "The Punisher"

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
news:kmjdo7$q97$1...@dont-email.me:

You should go google "fighting words laws" some time.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.