Vorkosigan Saga speculation

[Chris]

In _Brothers of Arms_ Miles thinks that Duv Galeni would be the best
Viceroy of Komarr possible. Now that he's a Count, with even more pull
than before with the Emperor, do you think that's likely to happen?

Also, is Miles next in line for being in charge of Sergyar?

Chris

[anto stinki]

anto stinki

[Shawn Wilson]

On Feb 4, 9:16 pm, Chris <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In _Brothers of Arms_ Miles thinks that Duv Galeni would be the best
> Viceroy of Komarr possible. Now that he's a Count, with even more pull
> than before with the Emperor, do you think that's likely to happen?

Could. On the other hand Galeni doesn't actually have any experience
in public administration. He's in security.

> Also, is Miles next in line for being in charge of Sergyar?

Viceroys are not inherited positions, they are appointed.

[Pedro Dias]

Which may be what the OP meant. But I don't think so: from a plot-
internal standpoint, he's proven very useful as an Auditor, and all
involved seem to realize he needs an unstructured environment to
thrive - which administering a new colony doesn't strike me as being.
And then I rather feel that Bujold hasn't really gotten full mileage
out of Miles The Auditor quite yet.

[Wayne Throop]

: Chris <chris.li...@gmail.com>
: In _Brothers of Arms_ Miles thinks that Duv Galeni would be the best

I almost wonder if Cordelia would take over Sergyar.
But on the other hand... she might not be all that willing. I suppose
it would depend on how she fit in to the day-to-day administration of
Sergyar with Aral. If she was mostly hands-off, and Aral and/or his
staff did the heavy lifting, it might not be a good fit, in addition to
not being her cuppa.

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<a80ff606-7dd5-46aa...@dp5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

OTGH, he's suffered enough already, like Caz. Bujold's method is to do
something horrid to the main character to set up the story, or have the
main character do something horrid to themselves. I'd prefer they get to
live with only the normal troubles until deep into advanced old age with
the death coming swiftly from a healthy condition. Like a sudden heart
attack rather than a slow decline like Alzheimer's.

--
It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant
and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting. -- H. L. Mencken

[michael]

I would expect that position to be bypassed in favor of a "planetary
governor", quite probably one locally elected and then confirmed by
Gregor. Duv might possibly run for that position, but given his long
association with the "absentee overlords" I would consider it unlikely
that he'd be elected. He would do a great job for Komarr if they'd
let him, but I doubt that he'd be their first choice. I also am
expecting that Duv's next job will be something as far from ImpSec as
possible, and quite probably on the political side. I could easily
see him as Ambassador, possibly to Komarr though as a member of
the Empire I don't know if they rate one. Perhaps Cetaganda? Team
Koudelka (possibly plus Mark) takes on Cetagandan culture and
financial sector in a no-holds-barred match? Bug Butter wrestling
in the Celestial Garden? The mind boggles.

As for Miles, I doubt that becoming Count will substantially change
either his relationship with Gregor or the amount of "pull" he exerts.
There are over 60 Counts - there are only 8-9 Auditors. Also, the
Emperor is more or less "stuck" with the Counts by birth and
inheritance; he selects his Auditors and they serve at his pleasure.
I suspect that the average Auditor has much more sway with the
Emperor than does a Count.

I don't really see Miles going back to the military, and he's made it
plain that his interest in ImpSec is over. Duv might possibly end
up as head of ImpSec, but not Miles. Like his father before him,
I believe that Miles' future is as a statesman. The problems that
he's going to be facing in the future are going to expand greatly
in scale, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him be the one
to "mend the fences" with Cetaganda. Looking at the way Bujold
has constructed the wormhole nexus, and the players in it, I'm about
halfway expecting a scenario where Barrayar and Cetaganda
are moving towards a lasting friendship, and someone with a
motive to split them up (probably Jackson's Whole) is operating
a covert plan to disrupt the process. The Jacksonians have
everything to gain from such an effort.

[Brenda Clough]

On 2/7/2012 4:59 PM, michael wrote:
>
> As for Miles, I doubt that becoming Count will substantially change
> either his relationship with Gregor or the amount of "pull" he exerts.
> There are over 60 Counts - there are only 8-9 Auditors. Also, the
> Emperor is more or less "stuck" with the Counts by birth and
> inheritance; he selects his Auditors and they serve at his pleasure.
> I suspect that the average Auditor has much more sway with the
> Emperor than does a Count.

A better question might be, can Miles continue being an Auditor? Aral
was able to maintain his responsibilities mainly by having a reliable
Voice (Miles) on planet. Will Miles be able to do that? Perhaps
Cordelia can come back and help run things.

>
> I don't really see Miles going back to the military, and he's made it
> plain that his interest in ImpSec is over. Duv might possibly end
> up as head of ImpSec, but not Miles. Like his father before him,
> I believe that Miles' future is as a statesman.

I like this scenario.

The larger problem with the entire series, if you examine the large arc,
is that things in the Nexus are rapidly betting tamer, safer and more
civilized. No more random wars and alarums. This makes for duller
novels but does allow the population to be happier and lead longer
lives. It would be profitable from the plot point of view to reverse
this trend, even briefly. A nice space war...

Brenda
--
My latest novel SPEAK TO OUR DESIRES is available exclusively from Book
View Cafe.
http://www.bookviewcafe.com/index.php/Brenda-Clough/Novels/Speak-to-Our-Desires-Chapter-01

[Shawn Wilson]

On Feb 7, 6:55 pm, Brenda Clough <BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The larger problem with the entire series, if you examine the large arc,
> is that things in the Nexus are rapidly betting tamer, safer and more
> civilized.  No more random wars and alarums.

Are they? I don't think so. Miles' stories are 'smaller', but there
has been nothing to indicate that overall things are becoming tamer.
Diplomatic Immunity certainly had a near war erupt, until Miles
stopped it.

[Pedro Dias]

Well, the primary military adversary, Cetaganda, appears to have given
up expansionist ambitions, and there seems to be no real substitute in
the offing. That's a big part of why I think Miles stays Auditor: the
new series paradigm is basically detective-story-with-geopolitical-
implications, better suited to his current estate than to Admiral
Naismith or Count Vorkosigan.

[Jerry Brown]

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:55:12 -0500, Brenda Clough
<Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2/7/2012 4:59 PM, michael wrote:
>>
>> As for Miles, I doubt that becoming Count will substantially change
>> either his relationship with Gregor or the amount of "pull" he exerts.
>> There are over 60 Counts - there are only 8-9 Auditors. Also, the
>> Emperor is more or less "stuck" with the Counts by birth and
>> inheritance; he selects his Auditors and they serve at his pleasure.
>> I suspect that the average Auditor has much more sway with the
>> Emperor than does a Count.
>
>A better question might be, can Miles continue being an Auditor? Aral
>was able to maintain his responsibilities mainly by having a reliable
>Voice (Miles) on planet. Will Miles be able to do that? Perhaps
>Cordelia can come back and help run things.

Hmmm, Miles is now going to need someone reliable to act as his Voice
from time to time.

I wonder who could possibly fill that role (not necessarily entirely
willingly).

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

[Brenda Clough]

If it's for short trips the Countess (Ekaterin) will surely be accepted
by his people. If it was for years and years, as with Aral, they might
need someone who is not juggling four young children. Cordelia?

[Jerry Brown]

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 07:41:40 -0500, Brenda Clough

<Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2/8/2012 7:27 AM, Jerry Brown wrote:
>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:55:12 -0500, Brenda Clough
>> <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/7/2012 4:59 PM, michael wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As for Miles, I doubt that becoming Count will substantially change
>>>> either his relationship with Gregor or the amount of "pull" he exerts.
>>>> There are over 60 Counts - there are only 8-9 Auditors. Also, the
>>>> Emperor is more or less "stuck" with the Counts by birth and
>>>> inheritance; he selects his Auditors and they serve at his pleasure.
>>>> I suspect that the average Auditor has much more sway with the
>>>> Emperor than does a Count.
>>>
>>> A better question might be, can Miles continue being an Auditor? Aral
>>> was able to maintain his responsibilities mainly by having a reliable
>>> Voice (Miles) on planet. Will Miles be able to do that? Perhaps
>>> Cordelia can come back and help run things.
>>
>> Hmmm, Miles is now going to need someone reliable to act as his Voice
>> from time to time.
>>
>> I wonder who could possibly fill that role (not necessarily entirely
>> willingly).
>>
>
>
>If it's for short trips the Countess (Ekaterin) will surely be accepted
>by his people. If it was for years and years, as with Aral, they might
>need someone who is not juggling four young children. Cordelia?
>

No, I was thinking of Ivan. I don't think Voices necessarily have to
be in the same direct family (Miles has been Gregor's Voice, for
example) and Ivan is a (first?) cousin.

IMO there would be plenty of fun to be had putting Ivan in Miles's
shoes.

[Michael Stemper]

"What's the worst thing we can do to Ivan?"

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
This email is to be read by its intended recipient only. Any other party
reading is required by the EULA to send me $500.00.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <jgskm6$sam$1...@dont-email.me>,

Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> A better question might be, can Miles continue being an Auditor? Aral
> was able to maintain his responsibilities mainly by having a reliable
> Voice (Miles) on planet. Will Miles be able to do that? Perhaps
> Cordelia can come back and help run things.
>

Can't have a woman being the voting deputy, can't be *that* radical.
Maybe Dono could serve. He is already tied down to being a Count anyway.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <jgskm6$sam$1...@dont-email.me>,
Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The larger problem with the entire series, if you examine the large arc,
> is that things in the Nexus are rapidly betting tamer, safer and more
> civilized.

The Nexus near Barrayar, perhaps we see little of the Nexus as a whole.
For all we know, there could be a major war going on somewhere.

If it doesn't affect the stories we would not hear about it.

[michael]

The issue of Voice has already largely been resolved. The Count's
Voice is an administrative position and there are already several
"Voices" operating in the district. I expect that Miles will leave
them alone to keep doing their jobs.

The real issue is who is going to be Miles' voting deputy in the
Council of Counts? Cordelia would be a good choice, obviously,
if you could convince her to take it. There are going to be a number
of the more hidebound counts who will spontaneously implode over
the idea of a mere woman in the council, and it would be fun to
watch Cordelia twist them around her finger. The book would read
much like "A Civil Campaign", and it would probably sell very well.
I suspect that Gregor would appreciate the opportunity to bring
his realm into a more modern mindset as well.

Alternatively, how about Kou? He's closely identified with the
family, knows the district (though he wasn't from there originally),
is widely respected, and has his record of service to bolster him.
Also, putting him into that position would further Gregor's aim of
getting rid of the social stigma associated with physical handicap.
Add in his tag team of devastatingly cute blonde "lobbyists" and
things could get very interesting indeed.

Who else? Mark wouldn't touch it with a 35 meter pole, and he's
not Miles' heir in any event. Ivan? While a possibility, I don't
see it as likely. Ivan is the straight man for Miles' antics, as
well as being Miles' (albeit reluctant) sidekick in the field. I
don't see him as someone Miles would entrust the district to. Miles
would trust Ivan with his life or his honor, but not the district.
Duv Galeni is clearly on his own track at this point, and wouldn't
have the time for such a duty even if he were interested. Ekaterin?
The duties of Countess added to the responsibility of the children
would seem to make that unlikely, even if the gender issue were
dispensed with. Tsipis might do a good job, but he's not Vor - and
thoroughly secular besides. Without either Vor or military
background I'm afraid that he's disqualified. Simon would be
an excellent choice if it weren't for the memory issue, which
obviously disqualifies him. Enrique Borgos? To steal an appropriate
expression, Eeep!

[Joel Polowin]

On Feb 7, 4:59 pm, michael <m...@here.com> wrote:
> There are over 60 Counts - there are only 8-9 Auditors.

Exactly 60 Counts, per ACC, and I don't think that number can
change. That's how many Districts there are, and I think the
Counts would put up a *big* fight if any attempt was made to
change that.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:jgskm6$sam$1...@dont-email.me:

Maybe they could finally meet the mythical aliens. See if Miles'
wiles work on non-humans.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Shawn Wilson]

On Feb 8, 9:19 am, Joel Polowin <jpolo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > There are over 60 Counts - there are only 8-9 Auditors.
>
> Exactly 60 Counts, per ACC, and I don't think that number can
> change.  That's how many Districts there are, and I think the
> Counts would put up a *big* fight if any attempt was made to
> change that.

I wonder if at some point Komarr and Sergyar will ever get their own
counts?

[Shawn Wilson]

On Feb 8, 6:04 am, Jerry Brown

<je...@jwbrown.co.uk.RemoveThisBitToReply> wrote:

> No, I was thinking of Ivan. I don't think Voices necessarily have to
> be in the same direct family (Miles has been Gregor's Voice, for
> example) and Ivan is a (first?) cousin.

2nd. If he were first he would be descended from General Count Piotr,
(or Cordelia's parents...) and he isn't. One more generation back.

[Shawn Wilson]

On Feb 8, 7:58 am, michael <m...@here.com> wrote:

> The real issue is who is going to be Miles'  voting deputy in the
> Council of Counts?  Cordelia would be a good choice, obviously,
> if you could convince her to take it.

I REALLY doubt she is eligible, unless they change the rules.

> Alternatively, how about Kou?  He's closely identified with the
> family,   knows the district (though he wasn't from there originally),
> is widely respected, and has his record of service to bolster him.

Kou would work, as a deputy, maybe. After him the only real choices
are Mark or Ivan. I imagine that to be a deputy in the Council of
Counts you can't be a mere nobody. No riff-raff. At least Vor, which
lets out Kou, respectable or not. I would go with Ivan, as Mark would
either be entirely disinclined or really dangerous in the job.

> Who else?   Mark wouldn't touch it with a 35 meter pole, and he's
> not Miles' heir in any event.   Ivan?  While a possibility, I don't
> see it as likely.   Ivan is the straight man for Miles' antics, as
> well as being Miles' (albeit reluctant) sidekick in the field.   I
> don't see him as someone Miles would entrust the district to.

To run the *district* on a day to day basis- Ekatrina. That one is
easy and obvious. We *know* women can run a district as a deputy,
we've seen it.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:fbab2a3d-5e8e-43b9...@c21g2000yqi.googlegroups.
com:

> On Feb 8, 7:58 am, michael <m...@here.com> wrote:
>
>> The real issue is who is going to be Miles'  voting deputy in
>> the Council of Counts?  Cordelia would be a good choice,
>> obviously, if you could convince her to take it.
>
>
> I REALLY doubt she is eligible, unless they change the rules.
>

Unless *they* change the rules? Heh. Unless *she* changes the rules,
more like. Would *you* tell her no?

[Jerry Brown]

Noted, thanks.

[Jerry Brown]

It'd be interesting to see the Vor prefix granted to some new family
lines, especially not direct Barrayans (Vorgaleni maybe?). Probably
hasn't happened since the Time of Isolation. ISTR Miles and Ivan
discussing a time when maybe everyone will be Vor (in which case
no-one will be).

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 09:29:35 -0500, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
wrote:

>In article <jgskm6$sam$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> A better question might be, can Miles continue being an Auditor? Aral
>> was able to maintain his responsibilities mainly by having a reliable
>> Voice (Miles) on planet. Will Miles be able to do that? Perhaps
>> Cordelia can come back and help run things.
>>
>
>Can't have a woman being the voting deputy, can't be *that* radical.
>Maybe Dono could serve. He is already tied down to being a Count anyway.

That would give him two votes. I think it would not be allowed.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Walter Bushell]

In article <3t86j7theh0mfnbie...@4ax.com>,

Not exactly as it would be subject to review, and the votes could be
split. Proxies holders can be bound by agreement and instruction. You
don't vote the way the person you are voting for, then they can choose
another proxy.

[Michael Stemper]

In article <Xns9FF3741794D...@69.16.186.7>, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> writes:
>Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> wrote in news:fbab2a3d-5e8e-43b9...@c21g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
>> On Feb 8, 7:58 am, michael <m...@here.com> wrote:

>>> The real issue is who is going to be Miles'  voting deputy in
>>> the Council of Counts?  Cordelia would be a good choice,
>>> obviously, if you could convince her to take it.
>>
>> I REALLY doubt she is eligible, unless they change the rules.
>>
>Unless *they* change the rules? Heh. Unless *she* changes the rules,
>more like. Would *you* tell her no?

*We* know better, having seen, close up, a lot of stuff involving her.
Would old Vor from the South Continent know better than to cross her?

Which thought brings up two questions:
1. Do we know if "old Vor" attitudes are more common on some parts
of Barrayar than others?
2. Is there a map of Barrayar anywhere?

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <jh0h6u$lro$1...@dont-email.me>,

mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:

> In article <Xns9FF3741794D...@69.16.186.7>, Gutless Umbrella
> Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> writes:
> >Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> wrote in
> >news:fbab2a3d-5e8e-43b9...@c21g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
> >> On Feb 8, 7:58 am, michael <m...@here.com> wrote:
>
> >>> The real issue is who is going to be Miles'  voting deputy in
> >>> the Council of Counts?  Cordelia would be a good choice,
> >>> obviously, if you could convince her to take it.
> >>
> >> I REALLY doubt she is eligible, unless they change the rules.
> >>
> >Unless *they* change the rules? Heh. Unless *she* changes the rules,
> >more like. Would *you* tell her no?
>
> *We* know better, having seen, close up, a lot of stuff involving her.
> Would old Vor from the South Continent know better than to cross her?
>
> Which thought brings up two questions:
> 1. Do we know if "old Vor" attitudes are more common on some parts
> of Barrayar than others?
> 2. Is there a map of Barrayar anywhere?

Yes, I rather imagine the tales of her most famous shopping trip are
still told with great gusto, and in some cases trepidation.

[hh...@thinksystem.net]

On Feb 7, 12:29 am, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:
> : Chris <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com>

I think the question is more whether Cordelia will want to continue as
Vicereine.
Note, from Cryoburn:
"His father, Count Aral Vorkosigan, is Viceroy of Sergyar," Vorlynkin
explained to Jin’s interested female relations, "and his mother, the
famous Countess, is Vicereine in her own right—her title’s a co-
appointment, not a courtesy just because she’s his wife.

--
-Harold Hill

[Howard Brazee]

On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 13:20:30 +0000 (UTC), mste...@walkabout.empros.com
(Michael Stemper) wrote:

>Which thought brings up two questions:
>1. Do we know if "old Vor" attitudes are more common on some parts
> of Barrayar than others?
>2. Is there a map of Barrayar anywhere?

We do know that attitudes vary a lot, even in homogenous countries on
Earth. And we see peasants with very conservative attitudes on
Barrayar.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Jerry Brown]

Perhaps this is intended as a hint to the reader that she will
continue in the role.

[Wayne Throop]

:: I suppose it would depend on how she fit in to the day-to-day

:: administration of Sergyar with Aral.

: "hh...@thinksystem.net" <hh...@thinksystem.net>
: Note, from Cryoburn: "His father, Count Aral Vorkosigan, is Viceroy of

: Sergyar," Vorlynkin explained to Jin's interested female relations,
: "and his mother, the famous Countess, is Vicereine in her own

: right -- her title's a co- appointment, not a courtesy just because
: she's his wife.

Ah. I had forgotten that. So she's the obvious leading candicate,
unless/until she wishes to resign.

[Wayne Throop]

: Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
: Yes, I rather imagine the tales of her most famous shopping trip are

: still told with great gusto, and in some cases trepidation.

The best trepidation quote from the incident is, of course

"I wish to be alone with my wife."
"Brave man."

[Walter Bushell]

In article <13288...@sheol.org>, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
wrote:

And as a Betan she has a long life expectancy. She might wish to return
to Barrayar to be with her grandkids. Returning to Beta would be
possible, but really she has no place there. In the Barrayarian Empire,
she is a top level aristocrat and a mover and shaker. Widow of the
Regent and foster mother of the Emperor, with a ferocious military
record.

[Wayne Throop]

: Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
: And as a Betan she has a long life expectancy. She might wish to

: return to Barrayar to be with her grandkids. Returning to Beta would
: be possible, but really she has no place there. In the Barrayarian
: Empire, she is a top level aristocrat and a mover and shaker. Widow
: of the Regent and foster mother of the Emperor, with a ferocious
: military record.

I don't remember just now; did Cordelia ever go back to Beta,
even to visit? And/or, is she still technically a wanted
felon/traitor/escaped-involuntary-mental-patient?

(I doubt anybody'd try to make that stick at this late date,
but technically... and stupidity does know no bounds.)

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote in
news:jh0h6u$lro$1...@dont-email.me:

> In article <Xns9FF3741794D...@69.16.186.7>, Gutless
> Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> writes:
>>Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:fbab2a3d-5e8e-43b9...@c21g2000yqi.googlegroup
>>s.com:
>>> On Feb 8, 7:58 am, michael <m...@here.com> wrote:
>
>>>> The real issue is who is going to be Miles'  voting deputy in
>>>> the Council of Counts?  Cordelia would be a good choice,
>>>> obviously, if you could convince her to take it.
>>>
>>> I REALLY doubt she is eligible, unless they change the rules.
>>>
>>Unless *they* change the rules? Heh. Unless *she* changes the
>>rules, more like. Would *you* tell her no?
>
> *We* know better, having seen, close up, a lot of stuff
> involving her. Would old Vor from the South Continent know
> better than to cross her?

Do you think there's a single one of them that are unware that she,
personally, killed the pretender to end the revolt? Do you think
there's a single of them that's *allowed* to be unaware of that?

[Shawn Wilson]

On Feb 9, 12:15 pm, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:

> : And as a Betan she has a long life expectancy.  She might wish to
> : return to Barrayar to be with her grandkids.  Returning to Beta would
> : be possible, but really she has no place there.  In the Barrayarian
> : Empire, she is a top level aristocrat and a mover and shaker.  Widow
> : of the Regent and foster mother of the Emperor, with a ferocious
> : military record.
>
> I don't remember just now; did Cordelia ever go back to Beta,
> even to visit?

Yes. One of the books, I don't remember which one, mentions that she
had visited her mother on Beta Colony several times. I doubt Cordelia
could have done so covertly, as she is an important public figure on
both worlds.

>  And/or, is she still technically a wanted
> felon/traitor/escaped-involuntary-mental-patient?

Presumably not, though she would be covered by her diplomatic immunity
if she were. If Miles has it casually (ala Warrior's Apprentice) then
Cordelia must too.


Ass-uming their laws are like ours, I don't think Cordelia would be
considered a traitor, legally (morally/socially is another matter).
The war was over when she skipped, and I don't think she did anything
overt against Beta Colony's interests.

[Shawn Wilson]

Since we're here, there is something I wonder about-

How much does Gregor know about the events of Cordelia's Honor? Sure,
he knows Serg was a monster (The Vor Game), but does he know his
foster father (effectively) assassinated him, at his grandfather's
order? Does Miles know about any of this? Mark? (I mention Mark
seperately, because his particular background may have led him to
discover and figure out things Miles could not)

[Wayne Throop]

: Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com>
: How much does Gregor know about the events of Cordelia's Honor? Sure,

: he knows Serg was a monster (The Vor Game), but does he know his
: foster father (effectively) assassinated him, at his grandfather's
: order? Does Miles know about any of this? Mark? (I mention Mark
: seperately, because his particular background may have led him to
: discover and figure out things Miles could not)

Well, how may people are known to know. Aral, Cordelia,
Simon Illian, Negri, and presumably some others in impsec.
That many people, it can't be kept totally secret for
decade after decade. Especially from Gregor.

I suspect Gregor, Mark, and Miles all ... at least suspect.
And Gregor would probably exert himself to *know*.
However, none of that is really based on textev.

[Wayne Throop]

:: Would old Vor from the South Continent know better than to cross her?

: Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com>
: Do you think there's a single one of them that are unware that she,

: personally, killed the pretender to end the revolt? Do you think
: there's a single of them that's *allowed* to be unaware of that?

I dunno. Barrayarans, like most folks, are capable
of prodigious feats of ignorance, even in the face of
voluminous information and incentive.

Were Ekaterin's Old Vor relatives up to speed, for example?
Maybe. Maybe not. For one scenario, "I've heard those rumors,
but they're ridiculous, exagerated fairy tales..."

[Walter Bushell]

In article <13288...@sheol.org>, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
wrote:

And that speech Aral gave Miles with the coda, that it is soul
destroying to be praised for a dishonorable deed, gains traction from
that knowledge. Aral certainly lived through that.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> writes:

> Presumably not, though she would be covered by her diplomatic immunity
> if she were. If Miles has it casually (ala Warrior's Apprentice) then
> Cordelia must too.

In traditional Baryaran law, I'm entirely willing to believe that a
count's senior male child (or formal heir) has diplomatic status but his
wife does not. The rules might not have been fixed yet.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

[David Dyer-Bennet]

michael <m...@here.com> writes:

> As for Miles, I doubt that becoming Count will substantially change
> either his relationship with Gregor or the amount of "pull" he exerts.
> There are over 60 Counts - there are only 8-9 Auditors. Also, the
> Emperor is more or less "stuck" with the Counts by birth and
> inheritance; he selects his Auditors and they serve at his pleasure.
> I suspect that the average Auditor has much more sway with the
> Emperor than does a Count.

And the emperor has only one foster-brother.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Jerry Brown <je...@jwbrown.co.uk.RemoveThisBitToReply> writes:

> On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:55:12 -0500, Brenda Clough
> <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>>On 2/7/2012 4:59 PM, michael wrote:
>>>
>>> As for Miles, I doubt that becoming Count will substantially change
>>> either his relationship with Gregor or the amount of "pull" he exerts.
>>> There are over 60 Counts - there are only 8-9 Auditors. Also, the
>>> Emperor is more or less "stuck" with the Counts by birth and
>>> inheritance; he selects his Auditors and they serve at his pleasure.
>>> I suspect that the average Auditor has much more sway with the
>>> Emperor than does a Count.
>>

>>A better question might be, can Miles continue being an Auditor? Aral
>>was able to maintain his responsibilities mainly by having a reliable
>>Voice (Miles) on planet. Will Miles be able to do that? Perhaps
>>Cordelia can come back and help run things.
>

> Hmmm, Miles is now going to need someone reliable to act as his Voice
> from time to time.
>
> I wonder who could possibly fill that role (not necessarily entirely
> willingly).

Ivan, is what that's pointing at.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 2/8/2012 6:27 AM, Jerry Brown wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:55:12 -0500, Brenda Clough
> <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2/7/2012 4:59 PM, michael wrote:
>>>
>>> As for Miles, I doubt that becoming Count will substantially change
>>> either his relationship with Gregor or the amount of "pull" he exerts.
>>> There are over 60 Counts - there are only 8-9 Auditors. Also, the
>>> Emperor is more or less "stuck" with the Counts by birth and
>>> inheritance; he selects his Auditors and they serve at his pleasure.
>>> I suspect that the average Auditor has much more sway with the
>>> Emperor than does a Count.
>>
>> A better question might be, can Miles continue being an Auditor? Aral
>> was able to maintain his responsibilities mainly by having a reliable
>> Voice (Miles) on planet. Will Miles be able to do that? Perhaps
>> Cordelia can come back and help run things.
>
> Hmmm, Miles is now going to need someone reliable to act as his Voice
> from time to time.
>
> I wonder who could possibly fill that role (not necessarily entirely
> willingly).

Doesn't Miles still have a horse ?

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

On 2/9/2012 4:09 PM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> michael<m...@here.com> writes:
>
>> As for Miles, I doubt that becoming Count will substantially change
>> either his relationship with Gregor or the amount of "pull" he exerts.
>> There are over 60 Counts - there are only 8-9 Auditors. Also, the
>> Emperor is more or less "stuck" with the Counts by birth and
>> inheritance; he selects his Auditors and they serve at his pleasure.
>> I suspect that the average Auditor has much more sway with the
>> Emperor than does a Count.
>
> And the emperor has only one foster-brother.

Nope, Ivan is in that boat also. And so is
Elena Bothari.

Lynn

[Chris]

On Feb 9, 1:29 pm, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <1328810...@sheol.org>, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)

> wrote:
>
> > :: I suppose it would depend on how she fit in to the day-to-day
> > :: administration of Sergyar with Aral.
>
> > : "hh...@thinksystem.net" <hh...@thinksystem.net>
> > : Note, from Cryoburn: "His father, Count Aral Vorkosigan, is Viceroy of
> > : Sergyar," Vorlynkin explained to Jin's interested female relations,
> > : "and his mother, the famous Countess, is Vicereine in her own
> > : right -- her title's a co- appointment, not a courtesy just because
> > : she's his wife.
>
> > Ah.  I had forgotten that.  So she's the obvious leading candicate,
> > unless/until she wishes to resign.
>
> And as a Betan she has a long life expectancy. She might wish to return
> to Barrayar to be with her grandkids. Returning to Beta would be
> possible, but really she has no place there. In the Barrayarian Empire,
> she is a top level aristocrat and a mover and shaker. Widow of the
> Regent and foster mother of the Emperor, with a ferocious military
> record.

I cannot recall now- is her role in repelling the Barrayaran invasion
of Escobar known? After all, she smuggled the plasma mirrors to them.
I AM certain that her role in Prince Serg's death is still secret.
Hmmm does Gregor know about Emperor Ezar's machinations to have Serg
killed in the invasion? I rather doubt it- it was probably one of
those "hot secrets" that Illyan lost with his memory chip, and with
Aral's death, I'd bet Cordelia is about the only one left alive who
knows what was really going on.

Chris

[Lynn McGuire]

I am fairly sure that Gregor is not very interested
in hearing any more stories of his crazy father,
Prince Serg. However, I'll bet that he knows them
from the secret fileroom of ImpSec.

Lynn

[Brenda Clough]

There is a further point that Cordelia has considerable pull. She could
have got Aral (the Regent) to get their Ambassador to lean on the Betans
to drop the charges. Alternatively, a note from the Emperor, asking for
the Betan government to allow safe passage for my trusty and
well-beloved foster mother, etc. etc. Another real possibility is that
the volatile and wiggly government of Beta has cycled through several
changes by now, and what the current administration is doing has no
relation to what the one of a generation ago was at.

I am sure that by this late date all that embarrassment has been long
swept under the carpet, and is tactfully ignored by one and all.

Brenda

--
My latest novel SPEAK TO OUR DESIRES is available exclusively from Book
View Cafe.
http://www.bookviewcafe.com/index.php/Brenda-Clough/Novels/Speak-to-Our-Desires-Chapter-01

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote in
news:13288...@sheol.org:

>:: Would old Vor from the South Continent know better than to
>:: cross her?
>
>: Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com>
>: Do you think there's a single one of them that are unware that
>: she, personally, killed the pretender to end the revolt? Do
>: you think there's a single of them that's *allowed* to be
>: unaware of that?
>
> I dunno. Barrayarans, like most folks, are capable
> of prodigious feats of ignorance, even in the face of
> voluminous information and incentive.

But not on subjects that interest them. Perhaps you should reread
Barrayar again, especially the part where Cordelia realizes they all
_respect_ her.

>
> Were Ekaterin's Old Vor relatives up to speed, for example?
> Maybe. Maybe not. For one scenario, "I've heard those rumors,
> but they're ridiculous, exagerated fairy tales..."
>

But they had heard them.

[Lynn McGuire]

I rather suspect that when Aral was Regent, he and
Cordelia went to visit her mother occasionally.
At Beta. With the minor emporer. With a FLEET.

I remember Aral's reputation, however undeserved,
as a mass murderer, "The Butcher of Komarr".

Long swept under the carpet for sure. You don't
upset people with that rep no matter how undeserved.

Lynn

[Taki Kogoma]

On 2012-02-09, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
allegedly proclaimed to rec.arts.sf.written:

> Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> writes:
>> Presumably not, though she would be covered by her diplomatic immunity
>> if she were. If Miles has it casually (ala Warrior's Apprentice) then
>> Cordelia must too.
>
> In traditional Baryaran law, I'm entirely willing to believe that a
> count's senior male child (or formal heir) has diplomatic status but his
> wife does not. The rules might not have been fixed yet.

Well, she did have some pull with the Lord Regent, Emperor, and Prime
Minister during most of the time period under discussion.

ISTR that she has visited her mother on Beta on rare occasion. (I think
it was mentioned in passing during the Sofa Talk in _A Civil Campaign_.)

--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) quirk @ swcp.com
Just an article detector on the Information Supercollider.

[michael]

On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 11:39:48 -0800 (PST), Shawn Wilson
<ikono...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Feb 9, 12:15 pm, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:
>
>> : And as a Betan she has a long life expectancy.  She might wish to
>> : return to Barrayar to be with her grandkids.  Returning to Beta would
>> : be possible, but really she has no place there.  In the Barrayarian
>> : Empire, she is a top level aristocrat and a mover and shaker.  Widow
>> : of the Regent and foster mother of the Emperor, with a ferocious
>> : military record.
>>
>> I don't remember just now; did Cordelia ever go back to Beta,
>> even to visit?
>
>
>
>Yes. One of the books, I don't remember which one, mentions that she
>had visited her mother on Beta Colony several times. I doubt Cordelia
>could have done so covertly, as she is an important public figure on
>both worlds.

I don't believe that I recall any of the books stating that Cordelia
returned to Beta colony. The closest is this quote from A Civil
Campaign:

"These trips can be more one-way than you expect. I haven't seen my
own mother face-to-face more than three times in the last thirty
years. At least if she sticks with Mark, you may be certain Kareen
will return to Barrayar frequently."

She suggests that she's seen her mother 3 times in the last 30 years -
she doesn't say where that meeting happened. Given the nature of
Cordelia's departure from Beta, and the mindset of politicians, it
would seem likely that the meetings took place off Beta Colony.
Escobar, perhaps? Either way, I can't remember such a statement
from Cordelia.

>
>
>
>>  And/or, is she still technically a wanted
>> felon/traitor/escaped-involuntary-mental-patient?
>
>
>Presumably not, though she would be covered by her diplomatic immunity
>if she were. If Miles has it casually (ala Warrior's Apprentice) then
>Cordelia must too.
>
>
>Ass-uming their laws are like ours, I don't think Cordelia would be
>considered a traitor, legally (morally/socially is another matter).
>The war was over when she skipped, and I don't think she did anything
>overt against Beta Colony's interests

She fled to avoid "treatment" for being programmed as an agent of
a foreign power, which would pretty much universally be considered
a tacit admission of guilt. I have no doubt that she was on Beta's
"Most Wanted" list for a very long time thereafter.

[michael]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 17:24:40 -0600, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>
wrote:

>I rather suspect that when Aral was Regent, he and
>Cordelia went to visit her mother occasionally.
>At Beta. With the minor emporer. With a FLEET.
>

I rather suspect not. You're talking about a period of time less
than a decade from the invasion of Escobar, which put Barryar
and Beta at war with each other. Under NO circumstances
would the Betans have been likely to accept a Barrayaran
fleet in their local space. Likewise, the chances of Barrayar
allowing the child Gregor to travel into the sovereign space of
another power without a fleet is highly unlikely. An official
state visit might have been possible (though unlikely), but the
logisitics of such a visit that soon after the conflict ended
would be literally mindboggling.

[michael]

On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 14:43:35 -0800 (PST), Chris
<chris.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I cannot recall now- is her role in repelling the Barrayaran invasion
>of Escobar known? After all, she smuggled the plasma mirrors to them.
>I AM certain that her role in Prince Serg's death is still secret.
>Hmmm does Gregor know about Emperor Ezar's machinations to have Serg
>killed in the invasion? I rather doubt it- it was probably one of
>those "hot secrets" that Illyan lost with his memory chip, and with
>Aral's death, I'd bet Cordelia is about the only one left alive who
>knows what was really going on.
>
>Chris

I think it likely that he knows a lot of the story, though it was
never confirmed whether he knows the whole thing. In The Vor Game,
Gregor's prime motivation for running away was that he was apprised of
at least some of the details of Serg's behavior at Escobar (and
possibly before). At the end of VG, Miles counsels Gregor to talk to
Cordelia about it, and get the whole story. Gregor agrees and gives
his word (a big thing on Barrayar) that he will. I think that we can
safely assume that he followed through on that promise. It isn't
quite so clear whether Gregor knows about Ezar, Aral, and Negri
setting Serg up to get blown away (along with several thousand other
Barrayarans in the invasion force). Cordelia certainly figured it
out (it was confirmed at the end of SoH), and I wouldn't be surprised
if Illyan was brought into the inner circle after he ascended to head
ImpSec, but I doubt if anyone else knew. If Gregor did find out the
whole story it would have to have been after the end of VG, but
it happened off-stage and I don't think that there has been any
confirmation of it.

[Lynn McGuire]

That war had a negotiated end and repatriation of
POWs (both sides) less than two years after the
death of Prince Serg.

Aral was the Regent and made such decisions. Do
you think that he would allow his wife to travel
to Beta without him ? And so on and so forth
(these things cascade until half the planet is
going on the trip).

If Barrayar jumped a fleet into Beta space, do
you think that Beta could stop them ? Although,
these things are usually negotiated.

Also, it is mentioned later that Komarrian trade
fleets were traditionally escorted by Barrayar
Imperial fleet ships (to maintain the peace <g>).

Lynn

[michael]

On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 13:20:30 +0000 (UTC), mste...@walkabout.empros.com
(Michael Stemper) wrote:

>In article <Xns9FF3741794D...@69.16.186.7>, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> writes:
>>Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> wrote in news:fbab2a3d-5e8e-43b9...@c21g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
>>> On Feb 8, 7:58 am, michael <m...@here.com> wrote:
>
>>>> The real issue is who is going to be Miles'  voting deputy in
>>>> the Council of Counts?  Cordelia would be a good choice,
>>>> obviously, if you could convince her to take it.
>>>
>>> I REALLY doubt she is eligible, unless they change the rules.
>>>
>>Unless *they* change the rules? Heh. Unless *she* changes the rules,
>>more like. Would *you* tell her no?
>
>*We* know better, having seen, close up, a lot of stuff involving her.

>Would old Vor from the South Continent know better than to cross her?

I would suspect so, after she hauled Vordarian's head (taken in what
amounted to a commando raid led by Cordelia) back home in
a shopping bag.
>
>Which thought brings up two questions:
>1. Do we know if "old Vor" attitudes are more common on some parts
> of Barrayar than others?

I suspect not. Certainly the people in the various districts have
widely varying education levels and attitudes, with the Vorkosigan's
district being pointed out several times as one of the most backward.
The Vor, however, are a ruling caste. They get the best educations,
the most exposure to new ideas and Galactic culture, etc. They also
don't seem to be restricted to a small area around their homes like
the backwoods people are.

If there are areas of Barrayar with a lot of "old Vor" attitudes, I
rather suspect that it is because they are under the control of an
"Old Vor" who is deliberately fighting to limit change.


>2. Is there a map of Barrayar anywhere?

[michael]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 19:50:24 GMT, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
wrote:

>: Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com>
>: How much does Gregor know about the events of Cordelia's Honor? Sure,
>: he knows Serg was a monster (The Vor Game), but does he know his
>: foster father (effectively) assassinated him, at his grandfather's
>: order? Does Miles know about any of this? Mark? (I mention Mark
>: seperately, because his particular background may have led him to
>: discover and figure out things Miles could not)
>
>Well, how may people are known to know. Aral, Cordelia,
>Simon Illian, Negri, and presumably some others in impsec.
>That many people, it can't be kept totally secret for
>decade after decade. Especially from Gregor.

I don't think we ever got confirmation that Simon knew about the
plot - in fact, I'm pretty sure that he didn't at the time. It is
certainly possible that he found out after becoming head of ImpSec,
but given the precautions taken by Ezar and Negri I think that
there's a very good chance that he never found out.

>
>I suspect Gregor, Mark, and Miles all ... at least suspect.
>And Gregor would probably exert himself to *know*.
>However, none of that is really based on textev.

I'm sure that Miles suspects, and it is entirely possible that
Gregor knows (from Cordelia and/or Aral). I doubt if Mark
knows, though - if anyone from Ser Galen's faction had
that kind of information in hand they would have used it as
a club against Barrayar long before Mark came along.

[Chris]

Yes. I think the Betans would kick their butts.

>
> Also, it is mentioned later that Komarrian trade
> fleets were traditionally escorted by Barrayar
> Imperial fleet ships (to maintain the peace <g>).

They served several purposes. One was to give the Fine Young Men of
the Barrayaran Space Navy some exposure to the galaxy at large.
Another was to provide essentially free training exercises to the
crews. A third was actually to protect the trade fleets. And as we
saw, a fourth was to put Barrayaran ships into places they would never
be allowed to get to, if there was a real shooting war.

Chris

>
> Lynn

[Chris]

On Feb 9, 8:43 pm, michael <m...@here.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 13:20:30 +0000 (UTC), mstem...@walkabout.empros.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (Michael Stemper) wrote:
> >In article <Xns9FF3741794DF0taustingm...@69.16.186.7>, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <tausti...@gmail.com> writes:

> >>Shawn Wilson <ikonoql...@gmail.com> wrote innews:fbab2a3d-5e8e-43b9...@c21g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
> >>> On Feb 8, 7:58 am, michael <m...@here.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> The real issue is who is going to be Miles'  voting deputy in
> >>>> the Council of Counts?  Cordelia would be a good choice,
> >>>> obviously, if you could convince her to take it.
>
> >>> I REALLY doubt she is eligible, unless they change the rules.
>
> >>Unless *they* change the rules? Heh. Unless *she* changes the rules,
> >>more like. Would *you* tell her no?
>
> >*We* know better, having seen, close up, a lot of stuff involving her.
> >Would old Vor from the South Continent know better than to cross her?
>
> I would suspect so, after she hauled Vordarian's head (taken in what
> amounted to a commando raid led by Cordelia)  back home in
> a shopping bag.

Wasn't there something about a Count on South Continent killing
himself, the populace rising up against the Vor, and some infantry
officer becoming Count (he was from an obscure branch of the family
and never expected to become Count) and smacking down the rebellion? I
am actually sure of all of that except the part where he was from
South Continent. Seems like he would have been apprised of events...

Chris

[Dave Hansen]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:36:52 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
<taus...@gmail.com> wrote:

>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote in
>news:jh0h6u$lro$1...@dont-email.me:

[...]

>> *We* know better, having seen, close up, a lot of stuff
>> involving her. Would old Vor from the South Continent know
>> better than to cross her?
>
>Do you think there's a single one of them that are unware that she,
>personally, killed the pretender to end the revolt? Do you think
>there's a single of them that's *allowed* to be unaware of that?

Well, no, she didn't "personally" kill Vordarian. She ordered it, but
it was Bothari that done the separating of the head from the
shoulders.

Though I wouldn't say Bothari did it personally, either. Milady
wanted it, he made it so. Perhaps Cordelia did kill Vordarian
personally, just with an unconventional weapon -- Bothari.

In any case, I'm sure the old Vor would be mighty careful about
messing with her. She certainly has shown an aptitude for walking
away from situations where the Vor opposing her did not.

Regards,

-=Dave

[michael]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 19:35:02 -0600, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>

No he wouldn't. In fact, I don't think that he would
have permitted her to go AT ALL - if he had a choice in
the matter. As for a fleet, unless he intended to initiate
a major political crisis, or an invasion, then there's no
way he would have taken a fleet into Betan local space.
What's more, there's no way the Betans would have permitted it.

Look at it this way. The Vorkosigan stories happen in an
era where the use of nuclear power and weaponry is so commonplace that
it is passe. Even a single enemy warship could potentially launch
dozens or hundreds of missiles carrying nuclear weapons once they were
in Betan local space - and Beta CAN NOT DODGE. They might possibly
intercept the majority, but would they be willing to risk their world
on the possibility of getting them all? I doubt it. Especially if
the potential aggressor has a recent history (ten years isn't a long
time) of invasion and/or conquest.

An unarmed diplomatic courier vessel? No problem. A fleet of
warships? Not likely. The Betans may be a lot of things, but
stupid isn't one of them. Not about this, anyway..

>
>If Barrayar jumped a fleet into Beta space, do
>you think that Beta could stop them ? Although,
>these things are usually negotiated.

Beta was the weapons technology shop of the Nexus; if
Barrayar jumped a fleet into Betan local space uninvited it would be
extremely unlikely that it would have been able to get back out.
However, even a hopelessly outnumbered Barrayaran fleet could do
enormous (possibly irreparable) damage to Beta before being destroyed.
Beta wouldn't be able to take the risk.

>
>Also, it is mentioned later that Komarrian trade
>fleets were traditionally escorted by Barrayar
>Imperial fleet ships (to maintain the peace <g>).

Undoubtedly. But you're talking about a couple of escorts for a
convoy of merchies, not a war fleet. There's a big difference.
Furthermore, those were escorts for trade caravans to the back of
beyond. I doubt if the armed escorts would have even been permitted
into Betan local space - if they were permitted in, they would not
have been permitted to approach the planet or orbital industry.
>
>Lynn

[Walter Bushell]

In article <4f348f9e....@free.teranews.com>,

And she got credit for Bothari's kill in Shards too, at least in the
popular mind.

[Howard Brazee]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 19:10:21 -0600, michael <m...@here.com> wrote:

>She suggests that she's seen her mother 3 times in the last 30 years -
>she doesn't say where that meeting happened. Given the nature of
>Cordelia's departure from Beta, and the mindset of politicians, it
>would seem likely that the meetings took place off Beta Colony.
>Escobar, perhaps? Either way, I can't remember such a statement
>from Cordelia.

Remember, she was publicly declared a hero by the ruling politicians.
Here escape might easily have been kept quiet, to not embarrass the
administration nor anybody else.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Howard Brazee]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 19:50:24 GMT, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
wrote:

>Well, how may people are known to know. Aral, Cordelia,
>Simon Illian, Negri, and presumably some others in impsec.
>That many people, it can't be kept totally secret for
>decade after decade. Especially from Gregor.
>

>I suspect Gregor, Mark, and Miles all ... at least suspect.
>And Gregor would probably exert himself to *know*.
>However, none of that is really based on textev.

Illian & Negri know how to keep secrets.

[Wayne Throop]

: michael <m...@here.com>
: I don't think we ever got confirmation that Simon knew about the plot

: - in fact, I'm pretty sure that he didn't at the time.

But he was right there, Ezar and Negri's eyes on the scene.

Hm. I see that Simon asked how Aral knew about the plasma mirrors.
Which means, at that point, he was out of the loop. However...
he had more than enough information to put it together very soon
after that point, imo.

[Catherine Jefferson]

On 2/9/2012 8:28 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
>> She suggests that she's seen her mother 3 times in the last 30 years -
>> >she doesn't say where that meeting happened. Given the nature of
>> >Cordelia's departure from Beta, and the mindset of politicians, it
>> >would seem likely that the meetings took place off Beta Colony.
>> >Escobar, perhaps? Either way, I can't remember such a statement
>> >from Cordelia.

> Remember, she was publicly declared a hero by the ruling politicians.
> Here escape might easily have been kept quiet, to not embarrass the
> administration nor anybody else.

As I recall from Shards of Honor, an arrest warrant was issued against
her for desertion. That doesn't sound like keeping it quiet to me. I
assume that the hullaballoo died down eventually and the Betans withdrew
the warrant, and/or that Mrs. Naismith traveled offplanet and met her
daughter in a neutral location for the earlier meeting(s).


--
Catherine Jefferson <tw8...@ergosphere.net>
Blog/Personal: http://www.ergosphere.net

[Jerry Brown]

Maybe Steady Freddie is still around (perhaps as a brain in a jar by
this time).

And I still didn't vote for him.

>I am sure that by this late date all that embarrassment has been long
>swept under the carpet, and is tactfully ignored by one and all.
>
>Brenda

--

Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

[Michael Stemper]

In article <71e7dbc1-b87f-4917...@9g2000pbd.googlegroups.com>, Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Feb 9, 12:15=A0pm, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:

>> : And as a Betan she has a long life expectancy. =A0She might wish to
>> : return to Barrayar to be with her grandkids. =A0Returning to Beta would
>> : be possible, but really she has no place there. =A0In the Barrayarian
>> : Empire, she is a top level aristocrat and a mover and shaker. =A0Widow

>> : of the Regent and foster mother of the Emperor, with a ferocious
>> : military record.
>>
>> I don't remember just now; did Cordelia ever go back to Beta,
>> even to visit?
>
>Yes. One of the books, I don't remember which one, mentions that she
>had visited her mother on Beta Colony several times.

Probably _Mirror Dance_ or _Memory_. I reread both of them earlier this
year, and did come across such a mention. (I'm working my way up to
my newly-acquired _Cryoburn_.)

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
This email is to be read by its intended recipient only. Any other party
reading is required by the EULA to send me $500.00.

[Michael Stemper]

Fat Ninny could be a Count -- there's a precedent for that. But could
he be a Count's Voice? I'd think that the ability to talk would matter.

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him talk like Mr. Ed
by rubbing peanut butter on his gums.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <jh36oo$g14$6...@dont-email.me>,

mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:

> In article <jh1h65$vq7$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> writes:
> >On 2/8/2012 6:27 AM, Jerry Brown wrote:
>
> >> Hmmm, Miles is now going to need someone reliable to act as his Voice
> >> from time to time.
> >>
> >> I wonder who could possibly fill that role (not necessarily entirely
> >> willingly).
> >
> >Doesn't Miles still have a horse ?
>
> Fat Ninny could be a Count -- there's a precedent for that. But could
> he be a Count's Voice? I'd think that the ability to talk would matter.

Fat Ninny would always vote neigh, of course.

[Carson Chittom]

Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> writes:

> In article <jh36oo$g14$6...@dont-email.me>,
> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
>> In article <jh1h65$vq7$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> writes:
>> >On 2/8/2012 6:27 AM, Jerry Brown wrote:
>>
>> >> Hmmm, Miles is now going to need someone reliable to act as his Voice
>> >> from time to time.
>> >>
>> >> I wonder who could possibly fill that role (not necessarily entirely
>> >> willingly).
>> >
>> >Doesn't Miles still have a horse ?
>>
>> Fat Ninny could be a Count -- there's a precedent for that. But could
>> he be a Count's Voice? I'd think that the ability to talk would matter.
>
> Fat Ninny would always vote neigh, of course.

Do you think the other counts would bridle at that? Or would it just
spur them to action?

[Howard Brazee]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 03:41:09 GMT, id...@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen)
wrote:

>>> *We* know better, having seen, close up, a lot of stuff
>>> involving her. Would old Vor from the South Continent know
>>> better than to cross her?
>>
>>Do you think there's a single one of them that are unware that she,
>>personally, killed the pretender to end the revolt? Do you think
>>there's a single of them that's *allowed* to be unaware of that?
>
>Well, no, she didn't "personally" kill Vordarian. She ordered it, but
>it was Bothari that done the separating of the head from the
>shoulders.

You seem to think that the facts had anything to do with what they all
knew.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

id...@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen) wrote in
news:4f348f9e....@free.teranews.com:

> On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:36:52 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
> Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote in
>>news:jh0h6u$lro$1...@dont-email.me:
> [...]
>>> *We* know better, having seen, close up, a lot of stuff
>>> involving her. Would old Vor from the South Continent know
>>> better than to cross her?
>>
>>Do you think there's a single one of them that are unware that
>>she, personally, killed the pretender to end the revolt? Do you
>>think there's a single of them that's *allowed* to be unaware of
>>that?
>
> Well, no, she didn't "personally" kill Vordarian. She ordered
> it, but it was Bothari that done the separating of the head from
> the shoulders.
>
> Though I wouldn't say Bothari did it personally, either. Milady
> wanted it, he made it so. Perhaps Cordelia did kill Vordarian
> personally, just with an unconventional weapon -- Bothari.

Bothari had no more volition than the sword stick did. And it's quite
clear who got the *credit*. And that wasn't the first time, either.

>
> In any case, I'm sure the old Vor would be mighty careful about
> messing with her. She certainly has shown an aptitude for
> walking away from situations where the Vor opposing her did not.
>

Indeed. In the end, however, I suspect that those who objected to her
taking Miles' place in the council would do so not because she's a
woman, but more because they disagree with her progressive politics.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote in
news:uueaj750lu4k2nrog...@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 03:41:09 GMT, id...@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen)
> wrote:
>
>>>> *We* know better, having seen, close up, a lot of stuff
>>>> involving her. Would old Vor from the South Continent know
>>>> better than to cross her?
>>>
>>>Do you think there's a single one of them that are unware that
>>>she, personally, killed the pretender to end the revolt? Do you
>>>think there's a single of them that's *allowed* to be unaware
>>>of that?
>>
>>Well, no, she didn't "personally" kill Vordarian. She ordered
>>it, but it was Bothari that done the separating of the head from
>>the shoulders.
>
> You seem to think that the facts had anything to do with what
> they all knew.
>

A point to keep in mind in real life, this election year.

[Michael Stemper]

They'd better come down off their high horses if they ever want to
get out of the starting gate.

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>

Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.

[Catherine Jefferson]

On 2/10/2012 7:50 AM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Indeed. In the end, however, I suspect that those who objected to her
> taking Miles' place in the council would do so not because she's a
> woman, but more because they disagree with her progressive politics.

Or insisted that, despite her having spent at least half of her lifetime
on Barryar, she was Betan and therefore not qualified. They'd have
thought of something, anyway. And probably failed to stop her. ;)

[Chris]

On Feb 10, 12:45 pm, mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper)
wrote:

> In article <8762felq94....@jackson.wistly.net>, Carson Chittom <car...@wistly.net> writes:
> >Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> writes:

> >> In article <jh36oo$g1...@dont-email.me>, mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:

> >>> In article <jh1h65$vq...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> writes:
> >>> >On 2/8/2012 6:27 AM, Jerry Brown wrote:
> >>> >> Hmmm, Miles is now going to need someone reliable to act as his Voice
> >>> >> from time to time.
>
> >>> >> I wonder who could possibly fill that role (not necessarily entirely
> >>> >> willingly).
>
> >>> >Doesn't Miles still have a horse ?
>
> >>> Fat Ninny could be a Count -- there's a precedent for that. But could
> >>> he be a Count's Voice? I'd think that the ability to talk would matter.
>
> >> Fat Ninny would always vote neigh, of course.
>
> >Do you think the other counts would bridle at that?  Or would it just
> >spur them to action?
>
> They'd better come down off their high horses if they ever want to
> get out of the starting gate.

Why did you have to go and saddle me with these terrible puns?

Chris

[Bill Snyder]

Because he only wants to stirrup trouble.

--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]

[Joel Polowin]

On Feb 10, 6:32 am, Jerry Brown

<je...@jwbrown.co.uk.RemoveThisBitToReply> wrote:
> Maybe Steady Freddie is still around (perhaps as a brain in a jar by
> this time).

Hm. That *would* be a Betan idea of a government pension.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <Xns9FF559EFCFC...@69.16.186.7>,

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Indeed. In the end, however, I suspect that those who objected to her
> taking Miles' place in the council would do so not because she's a
> woman, but more because they disagree with her progressive politics.

Anyone Miles would appoint would disappoint the conservative. In the end
Miles could make Gregor his voting deputy, who could oppose that?

[Carson Chittom]

Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> writes:

> In article <Xns9FF559EFCFC...@69.16.186.7>,
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Indeed. In the end, however, I suspect that those who objected to her
>> taking Miles' place in the council would do so not because she's a
>> woman, but more because they disagree with her progressive politics.
>
> Anyone Miles would appoint would disappoint the conservative. In the end
> Miles could make Gregor his voting deputy, who could oppose that?

Obviously speculative, but a rule forbidding the emperor from also being
a deputy is *clearly* the sort of thing a Council intent on keeping what
power it has would have. So in my view Gregor-as-deputy would strain
credulity. Or at the least cause comments of the "Gregor's going the way of
Mad Emperor Yuri" sort.

[Wayne Throop]

: Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
: In the end Miles could make Gregor his voting deputy,
: who could oppose that?

Not only is it authentic Barrayaran gibberish,
but it expresses a courage rarely seen in this day and age.

[Taki Kogoma]

On 2012-02-11, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
allegedly proclaimed to rec.arts.sf.written:

> In article <Xns9FF559EFCFC...@69.16.186.7>,
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Indeed. In the end, however, I suspect that those who objected to her
>> taking Miles' place in the council would do so not because she's a
>> woman, but more because they disagree with her progressive politics.
>
> Anyone Miles would appoint would disappoint the conservative. In the end
> Miles could make Gregor his voting deputy, who could oppose that?

I think that as Count Vorbarra, Gregor is not elligible to serve as
any other count's deputy.

Of course, Miles could just give his voting proxy to Gregor...

--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) quirk @ swcp.com
Just an article detector on the Information Supercollider.

[Shawn Wilson]

So, lessee... Cordelia figured it out. Simon-

A) Has (had) *perfect* recall.

B) Was right there for everything, much more so than Cordelia.

C) Was a career Intel officer. A *good* intel officer...


Yeah... Simon knew/knows. But the all-in group is not large-

Ezar who ordered it. Negri who was in on it. Aral, who carried it
out. Simon and Cordelia, who saw enough to figure it out. Maybe some
tech and intel people who knew about the plasma mirrors (or rather
that Barrayar already knew...) could draw conclusions. Assuming Ezar
didn't order them killed just in case. No need for anyone else to
know.

All in all, I do not think Miles knows his father assassinated Serg,
or even the full deal with Serg. LMB's never shown anything that
would appear to be so. Mark might suspect, knowing about
assassination as he does and likely being suspicious of Serg's
convenient death. But he might not even know about Serg. There's no
real reason for him to. Who would volunteer it? It is nothing but
malicious gossip now.

While I can see Aral telling Gregor about the assassination, I can
also see him leaving it out. Let the dead bury the dead and all
that. But... if he did tell Gregor, I can see that driving a wedge
between them (at least temporarily) that could have led to the events
of The Vor Game, as Gregor would have felt he had no one to turn to he
could 'trust'.

I would like to see LMB address this sometime, not that it matters
that much.

[Shawn Wilson]

On Feb 11, 10:59 am, Taki Kogoma <qu...@tenma.swcp.com> wrote:


> I think that as Count Vorbarra, Gregor is not elligible to serve as
> any other count's deputy.

More to the point, we have seen that he avoids taking sides as much as
possible (he abstains as Count Vorbarra on both votes in A Civil
Campaign) regardless of his personal feelings. He would never agree
to serve as a voting deputy, even if such were possible. The
Emperor's voice carries too much weight.

The (real) US Senate has a procedure called pairing, where a Senator
who will be absent pairs with an *opposing* Senator, who agrees not to
vote in role-calls but both still count as 'present' for quorum
issues, Barrayar could have something similar.

http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/96-452.pdf

Page 11, footnote 23-

23 Pairing is a voluntary arrangement between individual Senators to
offset their votes on a
rollcall vote, so that if one of the Senators needs to be absent it is
offset by another member
who does not cast his vote. “When less than a quorum votes, but the
addition of names of
Senators present and paired and announcing votes made a quorum, the
vote is valid.”
Riddick’s Senate Procedure, p. 1431.


Note that While the US House uses Robert's Rules of Order, (with some
addenda) the Senate has its own rules.

[Jesper Lauridsen]

On 2012-02-09, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:

> Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Presumably not, though she would be covered by her diplomatic immunity
>> if she were. If Miles has it casually (ala Warrior's Apprentice) then
>> Cordelia must too.
>

> In traditional Baryaran law, I'm entirely willing to believe that a
> count's senior male child (or formal heir) has diplomatic status but his
> wife does not. The rules might not have been fixed yet.

It would make very little sense to give the count diplomatic immunity without
extending it to his wife as well.

[Jesper Lauridsen]

On 2012-02-08, Jerry Brown <je...@jwbrown.co.uk.RemoveThisBitToReply> wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:55:12 -0500, Brenda Clough
><Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>A better question might be, can Miles continue being an Auditor? Aral
>>was able to maintain his responsibilities mainly by having a reliable
>>Voice (Miles) on planet. Will Miles be able to do that? Perhaps
>>Cordelia can come back and help run things.

>
> Hmmm, Miles is now going to need someone reliable to act as his Voice
> from time to time.

He has had that need for a long time. Aral moved off-planet when Miles was
still running his little admiral scam. And even after that, Miles have
been buys around the Nexus, as we see in _Komarr_, _Diplomatic Immunity_
and _Cryoburn_.

The death of Aral doesn't change anything in the running of the District
and dealing with the council of Counts.

[Jesper Lauridsen]

On 2012-02-10, michael <m...@here.com> wrote:
>
> I don't believe that I recall any of the books stating that Cordelia
> returned to Beta colony. The closest is this quote from A Civil
> Campaign:
>
> "These trips can be more one-way than you expect. I haven't seen my
> own mother face-to-face more than three times in the last thirty
> years. At least if she sticks with Mark, you may be certain Kareen
> will return to Barrayar frequently."

>
> She suggests that she's seen her mother 3 times in the last 30 years -
> she doesn't say where that meeting happened. Given the nature of
> Cordelia's departure from Beta, and the mindset of politicians, it
> would seem likely that the meetings took place off Beta Colony.
> Escobar, perhaps? Either way, I can't remember such a statement
> from Cordelia.

Any reason why grandma Naismith couldn't just go to Barrayar for a
visit? It's not as if Vorkosigan house is short of guest rooms.

[Howard Brazee]

Cordelia said that. What happened in Beta may be different from what
she knew, especially if the warrant existed but was kept quiet. Things
can change, maybe at the next election.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <4vlfj7lj849s81l80...@4ax.com>,

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 22:52:34 -0800, Catherine Jefferson
> <spam...@spambouncer.org> wrote:
>
> >On 2/9/2012 8:28 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> >>> She suggests that she's seen her mother 3 times in the last 30 years -
> >>> >she doesn't say where that meeting happened. Given the nature of
> >>> >Cordelia's departure from Beta, and the mindset of politicians, it
> >>> >would seem likely that the meetings took place off Beta Colony.
> >>> >Escobar, perhaps? Either way, I can't remember such a statement
> >>> >from Cordelia.
> >
> >> Remember, she was publicly declared a hero by the ruling politicians.
> >> Here escape might easily have been kept quiet, to not embarrass the
> >> administration nor anybody else.
> >
> >As I recall from Shards of Honor, an arrest warrant was issued against
> >her for desertion. That doesn't sound like keeping it quiet to me. I
> >assume that the hullaballoo died down eventually and the Betans withdrew
> >the warrant, and/or that Mrs. Naismith traveled offplanet and met her
> >daughter in a neutral location for the earlier meeting(s).
>
> Cordelia said that. What happened in Beta may be different from what
> she knew, especially if the warrant existed but was kept quiet. Things
> can change, maybe at the next election.

Things improved by time. And the Barrayarians were so helpful in keeping
Cetaganda contained, and no doubt, buying plenty of weapons, that Beta
decided to let bygones be bygones.

[Suzanne Blom]

OTOH lots of things on Barryar (and indeed everywhere) make very little
sense. Ask Cordelia.

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 17:56:40 GMT, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
wrote:

>:: I suppose it would depend on how she fit in to the day-to-day
>:: administration of Sergyar with Aral.
>
>: "hh...@thinksystem.net" <hh...@thinksystem.net>
>: Note, from Cryoburn: "His father, Count Aral Vorkosigan, is Viceroy of
>: Sergyar," Vorlynkin explained to Jin's interested female relations,
>: "and his mother, the famous Countess, is Vicereine in her own
>: right -- her title's a co- appointment, not a courtesy just because
>: she's his wife.
>
>Ah. I had forgotten that. So she's the obvious leading candicate,
>unless/until she wishes to resign.

If she is vicereine in her right, she holds the office, and there
is no need for a list of candidates.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:33:31 -0800 (PST), Chris
<chris.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is there a burr under your saddle?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:33:53 -0500, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
wrote:

>In article <3t86j7theh0mfnbie...@4ax.com>,
> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 09:29:35 -0500, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
>> wrote:

[snip]

>> >Can't have a woman being the voting deputy, can't be *that* radical.
>> >Maybe Dono could serve. He is already tied down to being a Count anyway.
>>
>> That would give him two votes. I think it would not be allowed.

>Not exactly as it would be subject to review, and the votes could be
>split. Proxies holders can be bound by agreement and instruction. You
>don't vote the way the person you are voting for, then they can choose
>another proxy.

Maybe. There are many variations on systems like this.

I have read bylaws where proxy use was limited. In one case that
I do not remember what it was for, one could have a personal vote and
one proxy vote and possibly one more if a member of the executive, but
no more than that.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Michael Stemper]

In article <79e80faa-ae1b-4efb...@s8g2000pbj.googlegroups.com>, Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> writes:

>On Feb 11, 10:59=A0am, Taki Kogoma <qu...@tenma.swcp.com> wrote:

>> I think that as Count Vorbarra, Gregor is not elligible to serve as
>> any other count's deputy.
>
>More to the point, we have seen that he avoids taking sides as much as
>possible (he abstains as Count Vorbarra on both votes in A Civil
>Campaign)

To be more precise, he said "Pass" in both votes. This meant that, if
the other Counts tied, he had reserved the ability to vote at the end.

(I don't have this stuff memorized, but did just finish off my latest
read of ACC yesterday afternoon. One more book, and then _Cryoburn_!)

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>

This sentence no verb.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <jhb6kg$vdq$1...@dont-email.me>,

He wouldn't be taking sides, but merely voting as directed. It would not
show his position, just that of Miles. (As if, everybody didn't usually
know His position.)

[Taki Kogoma]

On 2012-02-13, Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com>
allegedly proclaimed to rec.arts.sf.written:

> In article <79e80faa-ae1b-4efb...@s8g2000pbj.googlegroups.com>, Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Feb 11, 10:59=A0am, Taki Kogoma <qu...@tenma.swcp.com> wrote:
>>> I think that as Count Vorbarra, Gregor is not elligible to serve as
>>> any other count's deputy.
>>
>>More to the point, we have seen that he avoids taking sides as much as
>>possible (he abstains as Count Vorbarra on both votes in A Civil
>>Campaign)
>
> To be more precise, he said "Pass" in both votes. This meant that, if
> the other Counts tied, he had reserved the ability to vote at the end.

But when both votes went in a manner he could accept without requiring
his intervetion, he officially registered his votes as abstentions.

[Suzanne Blom]

On 2/13/2012 9:30 AM, Walter Bushell wrote:
> In article<jhb6kg$vdq$1...@dont-email.me>,
> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <79e80faa-ae1b-4efb...@s8g2000pbj.googlegroups.com>, Shawn
>> Wilson<ikono...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Feb 11, 10:59=A0am, Taki Kogoma<qu...@tenma.swcp.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I think that as Count Vorbarra, Gregor is not elligible to serve as
>>>> any other count's deputy.
>>>
>>> More to the point, we have seen that he avoids taking sides as much as
>>> possible (he abstains as Count Vorbarra on both votes in A Civil
>>> Campaign)
>>
>> To be more precise, he said "Pass" in both votes. This meant that, if
>> the other Counts tied, he had reserved the ability to vote at the end.
>>
>> (I don't have this stuff memorized, but did just finish off my latest
>> read of ACC yesterday afternoon. One more book, and then _Cryoburn_!)
>
> He wouldn't be taking sides, but merely voting as directed. It would not
> show his position, just that of Miles. (As if, everybody didn't usually
> know His position.)
>

This would require him to show far too much political closeness to a
known friend and might very well destabilize his government.