OT: Out of print books
Spiros Bousbouras
does out of print mean precisely?
David DeLaney
>How can one know if a book is out of print? In fact what
>does out of print mean precisely?
Well... I would start by checking Books In Print. Which I don't have a copy
of but which my local bookstore does. One might also check online to search for
its title+author and see what the results say about that.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Will in New Haven
> How can one know if a book is out of print? In fact what
> does out of print mean precisely?
An out of print book is no longer available from the publisher,
usually, and no longer being produced, always. That does not mean no
copies are exant. However, the number of copies available and the
price one would have to pay for one varies widely. There are online
sites that will find out of print books and sell them to you. Some of
the sites are specialized but some of the general bookselling sites do
it also. In many large cities, there are out of print book dealers.
--
Will in New Haven
Mike Schilling
A strong hint that a book is OOP is that Amazon doesn't sell it themselves,
but instead links you to the "N used and new" page.
Dorothy J Heydt
Note, btw, that "out of print" does NOT mean that the copyright
has expired and you can borrow it, or chunks of it, for your own
work. There's a Jill Churchill mystery with a subplot along
those lines.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Spiros Bousbouras
> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >How can one know if a book is out of print? In fact what
> >does out of print mean precisely?
>
> Well... I would start by checking Books In Print. Which I don't have a copy
> of but which my local bookstore does.
What's "Books In Print" ?
> One might also check online to search for
> its title+author and see what the results say about that.
I did and by the scarcity of results I'm guessing it is out
of print but I'm trying to be sure because I want to suggest
to Dover Publications of buying the rights.
Spiros Bousbouras
wrote:
> On Sep 2, 12:56 pm, Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > How can one know if a book is out of print? In fact what
> > does out of print mean precisely?
>
> An out of print book is no longer available from the publisher,
> usually, and no longer being produced, always.
What does "no longer being produced" mean practically ? I
mean I don't suppose a publisher has a factory which
constantly churns out copies of a title.
Kurt Busiek
> On Sep 2, 3:23 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> How can one know if a book is out of print? In fact what
>>> does out of print mean precisely?
>>
>> Well... I would start by checking Books In Print. Which I don't have a copy
>> of but which my local bookstore does.
>
> What's "Books In Print" ?
It's a book. A reference book to what books are in print, published by Bowker.
>> One might also check online to search for
>> its title+author and see what the results say about that.
>
> I did and by the scarcity of results I'm guessing it is out
> of print but I'm trying to be sure because I want to suggest
> to Dover Publications of buying the rights.
Dover specializes (though not exclusively) in public domain works. As
someone else noted, "out of print" doesn't mean "in the public domain."
Why not just name the book? Someone here is likely to be able to tell
you the answer.
kdb
Spiros Bousbouras
wrote:
That's the criterion I tend to use myself but I decided to be more
rigorous on this occasion.
Mike Schilling
> On 2008-09-02 15:56:25 -0700, Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com>
> said:
>> On Sep 2, 3:23 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> How can one know if a book is out of print? In fact what
>>>> does out of print mean precisely?
>>>
>>> Well... I would start by checking Books In Print. Which I don't
>>> have a copy of but which my local bookstore does.
>>
>> What's "Books In Print" ?
>
> It's a book.
But is it in print?
Wayne Throop
: What's "Books In Print" ?
Oddly enough, it's a list of books. Which are in print.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_In_Print
I don't really know if there's one that's more offical, but
a quick google finds multple references to this one:
http://www.globalbooksinprint.com/GlobalBooksInPrint/
Waaaaaaay back in the olden days, Books in Print was
a physical book most libraries had. IIRC. How they avoided
Russell's paradox, I'm not sure.
See also http://xkcd.com/468/
: Message-ID:
: <fa82ddb7-a856-4ff3...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
: What does "no longer being produced" mean practically ?
It means if you ask the person who most recently printed it,
they'll say they don't print it anymore.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
erilar
<e9df6875-eba9-42f7...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How can one know if a book is out of print? In fact what
> does out of print mean precisely?
You can't find a new copy. Sites like abebooks can find some pretty
unlikely one, though.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is
that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
erilar
<6295d09d-48d0-42f2...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What's "Books In Print" ?
EEEK!
Spiros Bousbouras
> On 2008-09-02 15:56:25 -0700, Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> said:
>
> > On Sep 2, 3:23 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
> >> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> How can one know if a book is out of print? In fact what
> >>> does out of print mean precisely?
>
> >> Well... I would start by checking Books In Print. Which I don't have a copy
> >> of but which my local bookstore does.
>
> > What's "Books In Print" ?
>
> It's a book. A reference book to what books are in print, published by Bowker.
amazon doesn't seem to have it.
<Looking more carefully>
Strike that.
> >> One might also check online to search for
> >> its title+author and see what the results say about that.
>
> > I did and by the scarcity of results I'm guessing it is out
> > of print but I'm trying to be sure because I want to suggest
> > to Dover Publications of buying the rights.
>
> Dover specializes (though not exclusively) in public domain works. As
> someone else noted, "out of print" doesn't mean "in the public domain."
>
> Why not just name the book? Someone here is likely to be able to tell
> you the answer.
It's "General Topology" by Ryszard Engelking, ISBN-13
978-3885380061. Not the kind of thing most people here would
be interested in but take it from me , this book deserves to
be in print and for a more reasonable price than what I can
find on the internet at the moment.
Regarding public domain a book doesn't go into the public
domain while the author is still alive, yes ? I can think of
several Dover mathematics titles where the author is still
living so I presume they bought the rights from someone.
I have found the online version of "Books In Print" and the
book I'm interested in doesn't seem to be in print.
Andrew Wheeler
> How can one know if a book is out of print? In fact what
> does out of print mean precisely?
It's a technical publishing term, meaning that the publisher of that
edition -- a "book" is not out of print, an "edition" is, since a book
can appear in an infinite number of editions -- has declared that it is
out of print. It means that publisher does not intend to print or
distribute that edition in the future.
It's kind of like declaring onself a semiprozine; an edition is OOP
because the publisher says so. There are many books that are *not* OOP,
but the publisher doesn't have any copies in stock and doesn't plan to
print any more -- those are OSI (Out of Stock Indefinitely) instead.
Many publishing contracts have clauses, particularly those concerned
with reversion of rights to the author, that are triggered by an edition
being OOP -- and that's one reason why some books are never declared
OOP.
Editions have been known to come back from being OOP; there's no reason
why they can't.
As a consumer, it's difficult to find out if a book is OOP, and it
generally doesn't matter -- if a book is hard to find and/or expensive,
its precise in-print status isn't important.
If you're looking to publish a book, the best way to find out what
editions are in print (and thus what rights are available) is to query
the author or (preferably) that author's agent.
--
Andrew Wheeler
Dorothy J Heydt
Annually.
But I wonder if perhaps the OP is not in the US?
In which case, someone who gets to bookstores regularly
(bookstores ALWAYS have a copy of BiP) could look it up for him.
Dorothy J Heydt
erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
>In article
><6295d09d-48d0-42f2...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What's "Books In Print" ?
>
>EEEK!
As I said elsethread, it's quite possible that Spiros is not in
the US. Like, maybe, in Greece? Where copies of BiP are not to
be found?
Michael S. Schiffer
news:2008090216020916807-kurt@busiekcomics:
> On 2008-09-02 15:56:25 -0700, Spiros Bousbouras
> <spi...@gmail.com> said:
>> On Sep 2, 3:23 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
>> wrote:
>>> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> How can one know if a book is out of print? In fact what
>>>> does out of print mean precisely?
>>> Well... I would start by checking Books In Print. Which I
>>> don't have a copy of but which my local bookstore does.
>> What's "Books In Print" ?
> It's a book. A reference book to what books are in print,
> published by Bowker.
Also a database, these days:
<http://www.booksinprint.com/bip/>
Though in either case, it's more a matter of having access to an
institution that subscribes to it than, generally, owning it
oneself. Libraries and bookstores are pretty much the go-to places,
(though university students, staff, and faculty have a decent chance
of having access to the online version via their library).
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Andrew Wheeler
> On Sep 3, 12:02 am, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.comics> wrote:
> > On 2008-09-02 15:56:25 -0700, Spiros Bousbouras
> > <spi...@gmail.com> said:
> >
> > > On Sep 2, 3:23 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
> > >> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> How can one know if a book is out of print? In fact what
> > >>> does out of print mean precisely?
> >
> > >> Well... I would start by checking Books In Print.
> > >> Which I don't have a copy
> > >> of but which my local bookstore does.
> >
> > > What's "Books In Print" ?
> >
> > It's a book. A reference book to what books are in print,
> > published by Bowker.
>
> amazon doesn't seem to have it.
> <Looking more carefully>
> Strike that.
You *really* wouldn't want to buy a copy for youself. Go to a library or
an independent book store, and ask someone helpful there to look it up
for you.
If it still exisis in physical form, it's the book-world equivalent of
those lawbooks you see in the background of ambulance-chasing lawyers'
commercials.
> > >> One might also check online to search for
> > >> its title+author and see what the results say about that.
> >
> > > I did and by the scarcity of results I'm guessing it is out
> > > of print but I'm trying to be sure because I want to suggest
> > > to Dover Publications of buying the rights.
> >
> > Dover specializes (though not exclusively) in public domain works. As
> > someone else noted, "out of print" doesn't mean "in the public domain."
> >
> > Why not just name the book? Someone here is likely to be able to tell
> > you the answer.
>
> It's "General Topology" by Ryszard Engelking, ISBN-13
> 978-3885380061. Not the kind of thing most people here would
> be interested in but take it from me , this book deserves to
> be in print and for a more reasonable price than what I can
> find on the internet at the moment.
>
> Regarding public domain a book doesn't go into the public
> domain while the author is still alive, yes ? I can think of
> several Dover mathematics titles where the author is still
> living so I presume they bought the rights from someone.
Dover doesn't *exclusively* do public domain books, but they do prefer
books that they don't have to pay for.
Public domain law is thorny and complicated. Here's a chart of the law
in the US: <http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/public_domain/>. To be
very, very general, anything from before 1923 is in PD, anything
published after 1978 is solidly in copyright for several more decades,
and the stuff in the middle is a mess.
--
Andrew Wheeler
Andrew Wheeler
It *used* to be an annual, with many very large volumes -- four or five
each organized by author and title -- but I don't know if the print
version is produced at all anymore. Bookstores use the online interface
now -- <http://www.booksinprint.com/bip/> -- and I expect libraries do
as well.
It might well *not* be in print anymore...
--
Andrew Wheeler
Andrew Wheeler
No, but there are commerical printers that *do* have printing plants
which run pretty much all the time, printing books.
And the publishers have contracts with those plants, generally saying
that the publisher will be using so much press time on these particular
days, and their rates will be <see table 2>.
Some publishers do, or used to, have their own "captive" printing
plants, but that's generally not the most efficient way to operate, so
it doesn't happen much anymore.
--
Andrew Wheeler
Spiros Bousbouras
> : Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com>
> : What's "Books In Print" ?
>
> Oddly enough, it's a list of books. Which are in print.
Odd indeed. How do they manage to fit such a huge list in
one book ?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_In_Print
>
> I don't really know if there's one that's more offical, but
> a quick google finds multple references to this one:
>
> http://www.globalbooksinprint.com/GlobalBooksInPrint/
>
> Waaaaaaay back in the olden days, Books in Print was
> a physical book most libraries had. IIRC. How they avoided
> Russell's paradox, I'm not sure.
>
> See also http://xkcd.com/468/
Amusing but the paradox doesn't work in this case.
> : Message-ID:
> : <fa82ddb7-a856-4ff3-aca3-e546ba906...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
> : What does "no longer being produced" mean practically ?
>
> It means if you ask the person who most recently printed it,
> they'll say they don't print it anymore.
So even if there is demand for it they won't print any
copies, yes ? On what basis does a publisher decide that
they won't make money anymore printing a book although
there's still demand for it ?
Kurt Busiek
> On Sep 3, 12:08 am, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:
>> : Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com>
>> : What's "Books In Print" ?
>>
>> Oddly enough, it's a list of books. Which are in print.
>
> Odd indeed. How do they manage to fit such a huge list in
> one book ?
Huge book, tiny print, last time I saw it. Which was twenty years ago.
>> It means if you ask the person who most recently printed it,
>> they'll say they don't print it anymore.
>
> So even if there is demand for it they won't print any
> copies, yes ? On what basis does a publisher decide that
> they won't make money anymore printing a book although
> there's still demand for it ?
1. They've lost the rights.
2. The demand for it is low, to the point that they do not think the
expense of doing a new print run will be cost effective; the expenses
of printing and storage will be greater than the income from new copies
sold.
Those are the two most likely reasons.
kdb
Will in New Haven
> On Sep 3, 12:08 am, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:
>
> > : Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com>
> > : What's "Books In Print" ?
>
> > Oddly enough, it's a list of books. Which are in print.
>
> Odd indeed. How do they manage to fit such a huge list in
> one book ?
>
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_In_Print
>
> > I don't really know if there's one that's more offical, but
> > a quick google finds multple references to this one:
>
> > http://www.globalbooksinprint.com/GlobalBooksInPrint/
>
> > Waaaaaaay back in the olden days, Books in Print was
> > a physical book most libraries had. IIRC. How they avoided
> > Russell's paradox, I'm not sure.
>
>
> Amusing but the paradox doesn't work in this case.
>
> > : Message-ID:
> > : <fa82ddb7-a856-4ff3-aca3-e546ba906...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
> > : What does "no longer being produced" mean practically ?
>
> > It means if you ask the person who most recently printed it,
> > they'll say they don't print it anymore.
>
> So even if there is demand for it they won't print any
> copies, yes ? On what basis does a publisher decide that
> they won't make money anymore printing a book although
> there's still demand for it ?
Two reasons, actually three.
If there isn't _enough_ demand to keep on printing it. That is
somewhat subjective but the bean-counters have a pretty good idea of
how much demand is enough. They will still have copies in stock for
awhile at times. Some distributors may have some copies around but not
for all that long.
If they have just come out with a new edition. In many cases, there
will be books in stock and available for awhile but they won't promote
or print the old edition anymore. Various distributors will probably
have copies but eventually that will dry up.
If they have just published another book on the same subject that
supercedes this book, or they think it supercedes this book, in the
marketplace. This is pretty much the same as when they have a new
edition.
Once a book is out of print, distribotors will worry about how long
they have before they can return unsold copies to the publisher, so
they will return all they can as soon as they can. Retailers will
worry about how long they can return unsold copies to the distributor
or the publisher, so they will do the same. In the case of mass-marekt
paperbacks, the process of returning them destroys them.
--
Will in New Haven
"Frankly, I think the chances of having a happy childhood while you're
still a kid going through it are pretty slim." Edith Ann
Dorothy J Heydt
If it's bought by Hollywood, they might do a second edition
labeled "Soon to be a major motion picture." Otherwise, zilch.
Dimensional Traveler
And wouldn't that just sum up the state of the book printing industry.
--
"What Kind of perv rememembers the scenes where she's clothed???"
Anim8rFSK, 8/23/08
David DeLaney
>On Sep 2, 3:23 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >How can one know if a book is out of print? In fact what
>> >does out of print mean precisely?
>>
>> Well... I would start by checking Books In Print. Which I don't have a copy
>> of but which my local bookstore does.
>
>What's "Books In Print" ?
A honking big thick set of books, updated each year, that purport to list all
books in print for that year. Meaning they're generally at least a few months
behind, but are good for finding out if something from a while back is +still+
in print.
>> One might also check online to search for
>> its title+author and see what the results say about that.
>
>I did and by the scarcity of results I'm guessing it is out
>of print but I'm trying to be sure because I want to suggest
>to Dover Publications of buying the rights.
Well, presumably Dover has its own people who can check whether it's still
in print or not? I'd just go ahead and suggest it to them, maybe with "Not
sure if it's still in print or not"...
David DeLaney
> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> What's "Books In Print" ?
>
>EEEK!
Well, now he's learned something. :)
Spiros Bousbouras
> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sep 2, 3:23 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
> >> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > How can one know if a book is out of print? In fact what
> >> > does out of print mean precisely?
>
> >> One might also check online to search for
> >> its title+author and see what the results say about that.
>
> > I did and by the scarcity of results I'm guessing it is out
> > of print but I'm trying to be sure because I want to suggest
> > to Dover Publications of buying the rights.
>
> Well, presumably Dover has its own people who can check whether it's still
> in print or not? I'd just go ahead and suggest it to them, maybe with "Not
> sure if it's still in print or not"...
Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. I wanted to make the
case more forcefully by saying that it's definitely out
of print but I'll go for the simpler solution.
Spiros Bousbouras
> In article <drache-62D8BC.18311802092...@news.airstreamcomm.net>,
>
> erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
> >In article
> > Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> What's "Books In Print" ?
>
> >EEEK!
>
> As I said elsethread, it's quite possible that Spiros is not in
> the US. Like, maybe, in Greece?
Originally from Greece but have been living in the
U.K. for a number of years. I just checked the local
public library catalogue ; no mention of "Books
in print".
I take it everyone in U.S. has heard of it ?
Dorothy J Heydt
Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sep 3, 12:32 am, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>> In article <drache-62D8BC.18311802092...@news.airstreamcomm.net>,
>>
>> erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
>> >In article
>> ><6295d09d-48d0-42f2-a72c-16f34ab99...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>> > Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> What's "Books In Print" ?
>>
>> >EEEK!
>>
>> As I said elsethread, it's quite possible that Spiros is not in
>> the US. Like, maybe, in Greece?
>
>Originally from Greece but have been living in the
>U.K. for a number of years. I just checked the local
>public library catalogue ; no mention of "Books
>in print".
>
>I take it everyone in U.S. has heard of it ?
Well, *practically* everybody who reads a lot.
Mike Dworetsky
news:fb8aad05-cfbd-4d1c...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
The most likely place where you can consult "Books in Print" in the UK is in
a large bookstore such as Waterstone's or Foyle's where the ordering
department will either have it in print form, or access it online for you.
A central library ordering department should also have a copy or online
access as they have to order books if a client requests a specific book. If
it can't be bought they try interlibrary loans.
In this case, your object is to suggest to Dover that they bring out a
reprint edition. Why not go ahead and do that? As it is an academic title
it is likely that the author would make the rights available for no payment
or next to nothing; if his or her original publisher isn't interested there
is usually no blockage to this. [Most academic authors don't expect to make
fortunes from advanced maths texts, and are gratified just to find out that
there are people who want to read their work.] Dover has published
mathematical titles in the recent past that were not out of copyright, e.g.
I have Hamming's 2nd ed of "Numerical Analysis" from Dover on my shelf,
which came out only a decade or so after the first edition.
--
Mike Dworetsky
(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)
ncw...@hotmail.com
> : Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com>
> : What's "Books In Print" ?
>
> Oddly enough, it's a list of books. Which are in print.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_In_Print
>
> I don't really know if there's one that's more offical, but
> a quick google finds multple references to this one:
>
> http://www.globalbooksinprint.com/GlobalBooksInPrint/
>
> Waaaaaaay back in the olden days, Books in Print was
> a physical book most libraries had. IIRC. How they avoided
> Russell's paradox, I'm not sure.
>
They avoided it by calling it _Books In Print_ . If, however, they
had called it _Books Not In Print_ they would have problems once they
stopped printing it.
Cheers,
Nigel.
Gary R. Schmidt
English reading world.
Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Armful of chairs: Something some people would not know
whether you were up them with or not
- Barry Humphries
cryptoguy
> It's "General Topology" by Ryszard Engelking, ISBN-13
> 978-3885380061. Not the kind of thing most people here would
> be interested in but take it from me , this book deserves to
> be in print and for a more reasonable price than what I can
> find on the internet at the moment.
Amazon has a copy, at $175.
Also, check this out:
http://www.antiqbook.nl/boox/beta/8319.shtml
20 Euros
It seems popular enough that someone has scanned it, and there
are (presumably illegal) electronic PDF versions downloadable. Don't
ask me where they are.
cryptoguy
2 minutes googling...
Amazon has a copy, at $175.
Also, check this out:
http://www.antiqbook.nl/boox/beta/8319.shtml
20 Euros
It seems popular enough that someone has scanned it,
and there is a (presumably illegal) electronic PDF
versions downloadable. Don't ask me where.
Peter Trei
Michael Stemper
>On Sep 3, 12:02 am, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.comics> wrote:
>> On 2008-09-02 15:56:25 -0700, Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> said:
>> > I did and by the scarcity of results I'm guessing it is out
>> > of print but I'm trying to be sure because I want to suggest
>> > to Dover Publications of buying the rights.
>>
>> Dover specializes (though not exclusively) in public domain works. As
>> someone else noted, "out of print" doesn't mean "in the public domain."
>>
>> Why not just name the book? Someone here is likely to be able to tell
>> you the answer.
>
>It's "General Topology" by Ryszard Engelking, ISBN-13
>978-3885380061. Not the kind of thing most people here would
>be interested in but take it from me , this book deserves to
>be in print and for a more reasonable price than what I can
>find on the internet at the moment.
What makes it superior to Willard or to Munkres? Clearer development,
more advanced material?
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Economists have correctly predicted seven of the last three recessions.
Anthony Nance
> In article <2be1b041-c152-4567...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Sep 3, 12:02 am, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.comics> wrote:
>>> On 2008-09-02 15:56:25 -0700, Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> said:
>
>>> > I did and by the scarcity of results I'm guessing it is out
>>> > of print but I'm trying to be sure because I want to suggest
>>> > to Dover Publications of buying the rights.
>>>
>>> Dover specializes (though not exclusively) in public domain works. As
>>> someone else noted, "out of print" doesn't mean "in the public domain."
>>>
>>> Why not just name the book? Someone here is likely to be able to tell
>>> you the answer.
>>
>>It's "General Topology" by Ryszard Engelking, ISBN-13
>>978-3885380061. Not the kind of thing most people here would
>>be interested in but take it from me , this book deserves to
>>be in print and for a more reasonable price than what I can
>>find on the internet at the moment.
>
> What makes it superior to Willard or to Munkres? Clearer development,
> more advanced material?
I'm interested in his answer, but just to add a second-hand
perspective in the interim, from what I've heard, it's a
wonderful reference, but not so easy/good to learn from if
you're learning general topology for the first time - kind
of like many of Serge Lang's texts on various subjects.
I've not had the privelege of seeing Engelking's book, and
I won't until it's returned to our library in mid-October,
but I'm looking forward to seeing it and deciding for myself.
And on the slight chance that it helps Spiros at all, last
I knew (and it's been some years), Engelking was still
affiliated with the University of Warsaw. If you and he
share a language, you may be able to find out directly
from Engleking what the status of the book is.
Tony
Mike Schilling
It's the kind of thing (very large, limited demand, constant updates,
many sorts of indexing required) that makes far more sense as an
online database than as a printed book.
Mike Schilling
>
> If it's bought by Hollywood, they might do a second edition
> labeled "Soon to be a major motion picture."
"In a world where teacups are the same as doughnuts..."
(May he rest in peace.
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-lafontaine3-2008sep03,0,4646300.story)
Andrew Wheeler
I am in awe of someone who would scan something as massive and
emphemeral as _Books in Print_. Each volume is at least a thousand pages
long, and they're big, multi-columned pages too. Doing that for
something that's out of date as soon as it's published is...well, it's
*something*, at least.
--
Andrew Wheeler
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I wish someone would do this for old phonebooks. It's surprisingly hard to
find old ones on sale online, and it would be really nice to have some of
those old yellowpages ads for information about what was where when. I would
think the info in Books In Print would have some historical interest too..
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Robert Allison
rec.arts.sf.written:
[re Books in Print]
> It used to be an annual, with many very large volumes -- four or five
> each organized by author and title -- but I don't know if the print
> version is produced at all anymore. Bookstores use the online
> interface now -- <http://www.booksinprint.com/bip/> -- and I expect
> libraries do as well.
>
I recall seeing it on microfiche [mumble] years ago, updated monthly or
quarterly by [snail] mail. Now, as you say, Andrew, it appears to be
online access.
And yet, I have seen a hard-cover copy at my favourite second-hand
bookstore. I've never checked to see if it's a current edition. I'm an
opportunistic book-buyer there, taking what I can find.
Robert
--
Robert Allison
Pine Ridge
cryptoguy
Um, both my links make it clear that I'm referring to the Topology
book the OP was after. I'm boggled that *that* is floating around
as a PDF.
Peter Trei
William December Starr
cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> said:
[ re "General Topology" by Ryszard Engelking, ISBN-13 978-3885380061 ]
> Amazon has a copy, at $175.
>
> Also, check this out:
> http://www.antiqbook.nl/boox/beta/8319.shtml
> 20 Euros
>
> It seems popular enough that someone has scanned it, and there are
> (presumably illegal) electronic PDF versions downloadable. Don't
> ask me where they are.
Of (perhaps) general interest with regard to the illegal scanning
college-level textbooks:
<http://tinyurl.com/5uukd8>
<http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/technology/27digi.html?partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all>
July 27, 2008
Digital Domain
First It Was Song Downloads. Now It's Organic Chemistry.
By RANDALL STROSS
AFTER scanning his textbooks and making them available to
anyone to download free, a contributor at the file-sharing
site PirateBay.org composed a colorful message for "all
publishers" of college textbooks, warning them that "myself
and all other students are tired of getting" ripped off.
(The contributor's message included many ripe expletives,
but hey, this is a family newspaper.)
All forms of print publishing must contend with the digital
transition, but college textbook publishing has a
particularly nasty problem on its hands. College students
may be the angriest group of captive customers to be found
anywhere.
Consider the cost of a legitimate copy of one of the
textbooks listed at the Pirate Bay, John E. McMurry's
"Organic Chemistry." A new copy has a list price of
$209.95; discounted, it's about $150; used copies run $110
and up. To many students, those prices are outrageous, set
by profit-engorged corporations (and assisted by callous
professors, who choose which texts are required). Helping
themselves to gratis pirated copies may seem natural,
especially when hard drives are loaded with lots of other
products picked up free.
But many people outside of the students' enclosed world
would call that plain theft.
[ ... ]
As textbook publishers try to shift to an online
subscription model, they must also stem the threat posed by
the sharing of scanned copies of their textbooks by students
who use online publishing tools for different purposes. The
students who create and give away digital copies are
motivated not by financial self-interest but by something
more powerful: the sweet satisfaction of revenge.
[ rest of article deleted ]
William December Starr
Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> said:
> Odd indeed. How do they manage to fit such a huge list in one book
> ?
Thin paper, small print, and unless my memory is playing tricks on
em, breaking it down into multiple volumes, e.g., "Authors, A-H."
-- wds
Mike Dworetsky
news:FvEvk.23071$vX2....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
I think major research and archive libraries do keep copies of old phone
books and directories, for historical research purposes.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Yeah, true. But it's too time consuming to go digging into for a hobby blog,
at least often. The world should conform to *my* wants, darn it!
Steve
<spi...@gmail.com> wrotD:
>> > I did and by the scarcity of results I'm guessing it is out
>> > of print but I'm trying to be sure because I want to suggest
>> > to Dover Publications of buying the rights.
IIRC Dover typically reprints public domain stuff. Out of print us not
sufficient.
Steve
korval.com/fledgling/
Liaden Universe Companion on sale at korval.com/srmcat2.htm
Mike Schilling
Not just college; I had to cough up $150 for my son's high school math
textbook. (Second-year alegbra, and brand-new, so there were no used
copies available.)
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Yes, but now he won't miss out in the latest developments in algebra!
Spiros Bousbouras
> Michael Stemper <mstem...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:
> > In article <2be1b041-c152-4567-92e8-2607bd81e...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >>It's "General Topology" by Ryszard Engelking, ISBN-13
> >>978-3885380061. Not the kind of thing most people here would
> >>be interested in but take it from me , this book deserves to
> >>be in print and for a more reasonable price than what I can
> >>find on the internet at the moment.
>
> > What makes it superior to Willard or to Munkres? Clearer development,
> > more advanced material?
>
> I'm interested in his answer, but just to add a second-hand
> perspective in the interim, from what I've heard, it's a
> wonderful reference, but not so easy/good to learn from if
> you're learning general topology for the first time - kind
> of like many of Serge Lang's texts on various subjects.
I wouldn't necessarily say that Engelking is superior to
Willard or Munkres (or Kelley) but it has material that
cannot be found in any of those books. The slant Engelking
has beyond the usual general topology stuff, is towards
set-theoretic topology. Almost every article in the 2nd
volume of the "Handbook of set-theoretic topology"
references Engelking. The only other book I know which has
that slant is Modern General Topology by Nagata but that is
also out of print and my overall impression when browsing
through it is that it is inferior to Engelking although it's
more recent.
On whether one can learn topology from scratch from
Engelking I believe I would be able to but I didn't actually
have to.
> And on the slight chance that it helps Spiros at all, last
> I knew (and it's been some years), Engelking was still
> affiliated with the University of Warsaw. If you and he
> share a language, you may be able to find out directly
> from Engleking what the status of the book is.
I googled for Engelking's name hoping to find a university
homepage but with no success. The University of Warsaw staff
directory does not have his name either. It's not particularly
important. I have put my suggestion to Dover and received a
thank-you email saying that my suggestion has been forwarded
to the appropriate department. I didn't get the impression
that any developments will happen soon.
Spiros Bousbouras
> William December Starr wrote:
> > Of (perhaps) general interest with regard to the illegal scanning
> > college-level textbooks:
>
> > <http://tinyurl.com/5uukd8>
Yikes, that's lot. What if a family could not afford to buy
the book ?
William December Starr
Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> said:
> "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Not just college; I had to cough up $150 for my son's high school
>> math textbook. (Second-year alegbra, and brand-new, so there
>> were no used copies available.)
>
> Yikes, that's lot. What if a family could not afford to buy
> the book ?
Then either (a) despite not being rich they live in a wealthy
school district and the schools supply the students with all
their academic needs or (b) fuck 'em.
Ain't local funding great?
-- wds
Spiros Bousbouras
> In article <85ab1cb4-3b47-4502-b7ed-14b217a98...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> said:
>
> > "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Not just college; I had to cough up $150 for my son's high school
> >> math textbook. (Second-year alegbra, and brand-new, so there
> >> were no used copies available.)
>
> > Yikes, that's lot. What if a family could not afford to buy
> > the book ?
>
> Then either (a) despite not being rich they live in a wealthy
> school district and the schools supply the students with all
> their academic needs or
So it is not the case for all schools that students have to
buy their own books. How's things before highschool?
Mike Schilling
They'd probabl;y be eligble for financial aid.
Mike Schilling
No, it's a private school. All the public schools in the area supply
textbooks for free. Some ask for a fee for lab materials, etc., but
it's optional for families that can't afford it. (Technically, it's
optional for families that can afford it too, but peer pressure
applies.)
John F. Eldredge
Well, that is better than the situation I faced in high school. This was
in a small town, with a single high school (the county had their own,
separate school system). One and only one store in town was authorized
to sell the textbooks. Oddly enough, they didn't sell any type of books
at any other time of year. I suspect that the store must have been owned
by a member of the school board, or possibly by a relative of a school
board member. The books were overpriced (as textbooks always are), and,
at the end of the school year, they would buy the books back at 10% or so
of what they had charged for them, then resell them to the next batch of
students for almost as much as they had charged the first time around.
Naturally, the students would try to sell the used books to younger
students, but the school board tended to change which textbook was in use
for a particular course every two or three years.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Dave Hansen
wrote:
[...]
> Not just college; I had to cough up $150 for my son's high school math
> textbook. (Second-year alegbra, and brand-new, so there were no used
> copies available.)
The private high school I sent my daughter to had, in addition to
tution, an annual "Book Fee", which got more expensive for upper grade
levels. Her senior year it was $225. But it didn't go to buying any
particular book, the fee was the same regardless of the classes
taken. The fee paid for consumable books, like workbooks with tear-
out worksheets, and paid into a fund that would replace old decrepit
books with new ones -- though I don't think my daughter ever got a
hardcover book with both covers fully attached...
In college, of course, she has to buy her own books. The most
expensive was her Physics book. New it would have been $190, but she
got a good used copy for $125. Her calculus book (a paperback!) was
over $140 new, her used one was a little over $100. My daughter, the
English major, taking an 8 AM Physics class every day, with calculus
immediately following 4 days a week...
Her cheapest book was a paperback of "A Midsummer Night's Dream" for
$1.50. New. For her Honors English class ("Human Perspectives
through the use of Animals and Humor" or some such nonsense). Her
Brit Lit class required a stack of paperbacks about 4 inches thick,
but less than $50 total. Also new.
Regards,
-=Dave
Dorothy J Heydt
Dave Hansen <id...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>In college, of course, she has to buy her own books. The most
>expensive was her Physics book. New it would have been $190, but she
>got a good used copy for $125. Her calculus book (a paperback!) was
>over $140 new, her used one was a little over $100. My daughter, the
>English major, taking an 8 AM Physics class every day, with calculus
>immediately following 4 days a week...
Argh! That's worse than when I was in college. The infamous
"breadth requirements" meant I had to take "Physics for
Nonmajors," aka "Bonehead Physics." Nowadays, students at UCB
also have to take an ethnic studies class of some kind; I don't
know if any more math is required. In my day I squeaked through
one year of algebra and one year of geometry in high school and
they required no more math of me; otherwise I could never have
graduated.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
(codgermode)
Back when *I* went to school, schoolbooks were handed out in class, you
gave them back at the end of the school year, and your parents didn't
have to pay for them. After all, they already WERE paying for them. That
applied through high school, as far as I know.
So college was a bit of a shock that way.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Spiros Bousbouras
What if you wanted to keep them, could you pay something and keep
them?
I know I would find it very disagreeable if I had to return the books
I got in
school.
Michael Stemper
>On 5 Sep, 17:19, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>> > On 5 Sep, 03:05, wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>> >> In article <85ab1cb4-3b47-4502-b7ed-14b217a98...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>> >> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> said:
>> >>> "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> Not just college; I had to cough up $150 for my son's high school
>> >>>> math textbook.
Ouch! I'm getting ready to go back to school in a couple of years, and
was shocked to peruse the University Book Store and see a new calc book
for $120. $150 for a high school text? Arrgh!
>> > So it is not the case for all schools that students have to
>> > buy their own books. How's things before highschool?
>>
>> (codgermode)
>>
>> Back when *I* went to school, schoolbooks were handed out in class, you
>> gave them back at the end of the school year, and your parents didn't
>> have to pay for them. After all, they already WERE paying for them. That
>> applied through high school, as far as I know.
It was just about the same for me. The only exception in high school was
the math books in my senior year. We had to buy them. But those were
soft-bound SMSG texts and not at all pricey.
>What if you wanted to keep them, could you pay something and keep
>them?
I bought several of my high school math books at the end of the school
year. I also bought a new copy of the book that I used in Algebra I
from the publisher, with the aid of a sympathetic teacher.
With the exception of the Probability and Statistics, they're still all
on my shelves at home, 35-40 years later.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
James Nicoll
Michael Stemper <mste...@siemens-emis.com> wrote:
>
>It was just about the same for me. The only exception in high school was
>the math books in my senior year. We had to buy them. But those were
>soft-bound SMSG texts and not at all pricey.
We had to buy our CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry (and
the math one as well, I think) but the Rubber Handbooks are good value
for the money, at least in terms of kilograms of paper per dollar. I
still have mine and along with some other texts (mainly from UoArizona
Press) it has destroyed two bookshelves so far.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Mike Schilling
> My daughter, the
> English major, taking an 8 AM Physics class every day, with calculus
> immediately following 4 days a week...
That's impressive in a number of ways, but an 8 AM class? Haven't you
explained that college will be her last chance until retirement to sleep
late?
Mike Schilling
Not offically, though I suppose you could "lose" them and pay a replacment
fee.
Joe Pfeiffer
Down here, in a school district that is not by any stretch of the
imagination wealthy, k-12 textbooks are still handed out and handed
in.
You can pay for your books and keep them. That's not how it's
expressed; the way they say it is that if you lose your textbook
you'll be fined enough to pay for a replacement. But it means the
same thing.
I've still got all my undergrad textbooks 30 years later. But the
idea of somebody wanting to keep high school texts never occurred to
me before.
erilar
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> (codgermode)
>
> Back when *I* went to school, schoolbooks were handed out in class, you
> gave them back at the end of the school year, and your parents didn't
> have to pay for them. After all, they already WERE paying for them. That
> applied through high school, as far as I know.
Back when I TAUGHT in high school(up to 10 years ago), the only time
students had to pay for books was when they damaged them(and we kept a
record of what shape they were in when handed out on the inside front
cover.) Small town in Minnesota.
>
> So college was a bit of a shock that way.
I belong to three college generations. In the '50's, books were rented
and not too expensive. In the '60's mostly the same but more expensive.
In the mid-'70s(grad school and bigger university) we had to buy them,
but some were used, and we could sell them back, though not for much.
Now it seems everyone is expected to buy them new for hundreds of
dollars and be lucky to get 10% back.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is
that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
James Nicoll
> My daughter, the
> English major, taking an 8 AM Physics class every day, with calculus
> immediately following 4 days a week...
My high school ran the physics and calculus curriculi such
that what you learned in calculus class one week would have been extremely
useful to know in physics two weeks earlier.
Mike Schilling
> Dave Hansen wrote:
>> My daughter, the
>> English major, taking an 8 AM Physics class every day, with calculus
>> immediately following 4 days a week...
>
> My high school ran the physics and calculus curriculi such
> that what you learned in calculus class one week would have been
> extremely useful to know in physics two weeks earlier.
My university managed to schedule the single sections of Honors Calculus and
Honors Physics at the same time.
Michael Stemper
>In article <g9roqr$ims$1...@aioe.org>, Michael Stemper <mste...@siemens-emis.com> wrote:
>>
>>It was just about the same for me. The only exception in high school was
>>the math books in my senior year. We had to buy them. But those were
>>soft-bound SMSG texts and not at all pricey.
>
> We had to buy our CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry (and
>the math one as well, I think) but the Rubber Handbooks are good value
>for the money, at least in terms of kilograms of paper per dollar. I
>still have mine and along with some other texts (mainly from UoArizona
>Press) it has destroyed two bookshelves so far.
Oh, I'd forgotten about that! Eighth grade (I believe that Canada has
a similar system to the US), our math teacher said one day, "you can order
this book (holds up _CRC Math Tables_) for $2.00, because they have some
defective copies that don't have the gold leaf on the edge of the pages."
This was 1968 (+/-), so forty years of inflation in the greenback make it
what, about a ten-spot now? Hell of a deal, and yes, it is still on my
shelves. I never did pick up Physics and Chemistry, though.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Always use apostrophe's and "quotation marks" properly.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
It would have been un-American to want to keep textbooks.
For my part, the textbooks were so ludicrously useless that I never
inquired how I might get one.
John M. Gamble
Hmm, too late to explain that to the people who scheduled the
semi-advanced[1] Calculus course at 7:30am at Purdue, I suppose.
On the other hand, it was a MWF course. Tuesday and Thursday I
actually managed to not see the sun rise.
1. There was a genuinely advanced half-the-number-of-semesters
Calculus course, but I took the three-quarters version instead.
--
-john
February 28 1997: Last day libraries could order catalogue cards
from the Library of Congress.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> In article <g9roqr$ims$1...@aioe.org>,
> Michael Stemper <mste...@siemens-emis.com> wrote:
>> It was just about the same for me. The only exception in high school was
>> the math books in my senior year. We had to buy them. But those were
>> soft-bound SMSG texts and not at all pricey.
>
> We had to buy our CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry (and
> the math one as well, I think) but the Rubber Handbooks are good value
> for the money, at least in terms of kilograms of paper per dollar. I
> still have mine and along with some other texts (mainly from UoArizona
> Press) it has destroyed two bookshelves so far.
The CRC? In High School?
Yeah, right. Not in my experience. Oh, I USED one, but that was because
my dad already HAD one. AFAIK, I had the only copy in my school.
Even in my early years of college it wasn't a common thing for people
to have.
David Harmon
Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote,
That class is the Physics Department's last chance to torment a few
deserving English majors, all taking it because they have no choice.
Scheduled accordingly.
James Nicoll
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <g9roqr$ims$1...@aioe.org>,
>> Michael Stemper <mste...@siemens-emis.com> wrote:
>>> It was just about the same for me. The only exception in high school was
>>> the math books in my senior year. We had to buy them. But those were
>>> soft-bound SMSG texts and not at all pricey.
>>
>> We had to buy our CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry (and
>> the math one as well, I think) but the Rubber Handbooks are good value
>> for the money, at least in terms of kilograms of paper per dollar. I
>> still have mine and along with some other texts (mainly from UoArizona
>> Press) it has destroyed two bookshelves so far.
>
> The CRC? In High School?
Sure. Grade 11 or 12 chemistry for the five year students.
I don't know if it was offered to the four year students and the
vocationals almost certainly were not offered it.
Dave Hansen
> On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 10:35:29 -0700 in rec.arts.sf.written, "Mike
>
> >Dave Hansen wrote:
> >> My daughter, the
> >> English major, taking an 8 AM Physics class every day, with calculus
> >> immediately following 4 days a week...
>
> >That's impressive in a number of ways, but an 8 AM class? Haven't you
> >explained that college will be her last chance until retirement to sleep
> >late?
>
> That class is the Physics Department's last chance to torment a few
> deserving English majors, all taking it because they have no choice.
> Scheduled accordingly.
Actually, she's taking it because she _wants_ to. Of the science
classes she took in High School, Physics was her favorite. She does
have to take a science course, but could have taken Biology, or
Chemistry, or something else.
And it's a small school, so there's only one Physics class. So
they're tormenting their own majors as well...
Though she wasn't terribly thrilled about Calc. But it's a co-
requisite with Physics.
Regards,
-=Dave
Charlton Wilbur
DH> And it's a small school, so there's only one Physics class. So
DH> they're tormenting their own majors as well...
What I noticed at my own school was that the more elementary the class,
the earlier the class was scheduled. During my senior year, I had no
class that met before 1 pm.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwi...@chromatico.net
Dave Hansen
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> James Nicoll wrote:
[...]
> > We had to buy our CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry (and
ITYM "Chemistry and Physics"
> > the math one as well, I think) but the Rubber Handbooks are good value
> > for the money, at least in terms of kilograms of paper per dollar. I
> > still have mine and along with some other texts (mainly from UoArizona
> > Press) it has destroyed two bookshelves so far.
>
> The CRC? In High School?
>
> Yeah, right. Not in my experience. Oh, I USED one, but that was because
> my dad already HAD one. AFAIK, I had the only copy in my school.
>
> Even in my early years of college it wasn't a common thing for people
> to have.
I bought mine as a freshman from the ACS, who had some less-than-
current editions for sale as a fundraiser. IIRC, I paid for the 58th
Edition about 25% of what the bookstore was charging for the 62nd.
Even though they're on their 88th Edition today, I don't expect enough
has changed to justify purchasing the latest...
Regards,
-=Dave
William Hyde
>
> My high school ran the physics and calculus curriculi such
> that what you learned in calculus class one week would have been extremely
> useful to know in physics two weeks earlier.
Standard at U of Toronto is a one year gap, or worse.
Getting a coffee the other day I heard a group of physics students
talking about the same
problem we had 30 years ago, namely that the tensors used in physics
had absolutely
no connection to the tensors learned in mathematics the same year (one
of the more
dedicated of our class members found the connection in a problem in
one of the late
chapters of Werner Greub's "Multilinear Albegra"), and furthermore
that most of the
professors seemed to have no idea what these things were, only how to
use them.
Greub knew what they were, of course, but it was dangerous, asking
Greub a question.
He was not the type to be content with a partial answer, and week's
lecture on the use and abuse of tensors in physics might have
resulted. And he was already putting 50% more
material in his lectures than was possible.
William Hyde
Dimensional Traveler
> Dave Hansen wrote:
>> My daughter, the
>> English major, taking an 8 AM Physics class every day, with calculus
>> immediately following 4 days a week...
>
> My high school ran the physics and calculus curriculi such
> that what you learned in calculus class one week would have been
> extremely useful to know in physics two weeks earlier.
That would help explain (a little bit) the outcomes of many of your
experiments.
--
"What Kind of perv rememembers the scenes where she's clothed???"
Anim8rFSK, 8/23/08
Mike Schilling
.
>
> Getting a coffee the other day I heard a group of physics students
> talking about the same
> problem we had 30 years ago, namely that the tensors used in physics
> had absolutely
> no connection to the tensors learned in mathematics the same year
Did this cause apprehension and dissension to begin?
William Hyde
wrote:
Yes, rendering us all invulnerable to mind readers.
Which is fortunate, mainly for the mind readers.
William Hyde
Spiros Bousbouras
> On Sep 4, 10:50 am, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> [...]
>
> > Not just college; I had to cough up $150 for my son's high school math
> > textbook. (Second-year alegbra, and brand-new, so there were no used
> > copies available.)
>
> In college, of course, she has to buy her own books. The most
> expensive was her Physics book. New it would have been $190, but she
> got a good used copy for $125. Her calculus book (a paperback!) was
> over $140 new, her used one was a little over $100. My daughter, the
> English major, taking an 8 AM Physics class every day, with calculus
> immediately following 4 days a week...
So there's rampant exploitation happening. Any reason why
she has to buy these specific books ?
James Nicoll
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>James Nicoll wrote:
>> Dave Hansen wrote:
>>> My daughter, the
>>> English major, taking an 8 AM Physics class every day, with calculus
>>> immediately following 4 days a week...
>>
>> My high school ran the physics and calculus curriculi such
>> that what you learned in calculus class one week would have been
>> extremely useful to know in physics two weeks earlier.
>
>That would help explain (a little bit) the outcomes of many of your
>experiments.
What kind of accident can you have in a physics class? Chemistry,
sure, especially in the days between the order to stop using picric acid
in experiments and the much later order to dispose of it rather than letting
it slowly crystalize in the back corner of the chemical lockers.
David DeLaney
>>That would help explain (a little bit) the outcomes of many of your
>>experiments.
>
> What kind of accident can you have in a physics class?
Physics includes:
electricity, say no more say no more
gravity, often demonstrated by inclined planes and rolling balls and pendulums
magnetism, including extremely strong rare-earth magnets
heat and thermodynamics
laws of motion, momentum & kinetic energy
and several other interestingly-demonstrable things.
See also: Jearl Walker. "He has been known to stick his hand in molten lead,
walk barefoot over hot coals, lie on a bed of nails, and pour freezing-cold
liquid nitrogen in his mouth to demonstrate various principles of physics."
Sounds like your kind of science class, actually.
Dave "Wikipedia does not seem to think he has either died or retired yet, yay!"
DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
James Nicoll
David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>That would help explain (a little bit) the outcomes of many of your
>>>experiments.
>>
>> What kind of accident can you have in a physics class?
>
>Physics includes:
>electricity, say no more say no more
We didn't get a lot on that, actually. Half a term, maybe?
I don't consider hand-wound coils shorting out an accident
as such, Wait, there was a lab where the teacher got confused about
DC vs AC sources.
Mike Dworetsky
news:gMMvk.22665$Ep1....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> In article <J8mdnVq_Kv3uCiLV...@bt.com>,
> Mike Dworetsky <plati...@pants.btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>"Ted Nolan <tednolan>" <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote in message
>>news:FvEvk.23071$vX2....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>> In article <1impfvz.xe184mpy9oxsN%acwh...@optonline.net>,
>>> Andrew Wheeler <acwh...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 3, 12:17 am, Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> > On Sep 3, 12:32 am, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > In article <drache-62D8BC.18311802092...@news.airstreamcomm.net>,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> > > >In article
>>>>> > > ><6295d09d-48d0-42f2-a72c-16f34ab99...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> > > > Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > >> What's "Books In Print" ?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > >EEEK!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > As I said elsethread, it's quite possible that Spiros is not in
>>>>> > > the US. Like, maybe, in Greece?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Originally from Greece but have been living in the
>>>>> > U.K. for a number of years. I just checked the local
>>>>> > public library catalogue ; no mention of "Books
>>>>> > in print".
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I take it everyone in U.S. has heard of it ?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2 minutes googling...
>>>>>
>>>>> Amazon has a copy, at $175.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, check this out:
>>>>> http://www.antiqbook.nl/boox/beta/8319.shtml
>>>>> 20 Euros
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems popular enough that someone has scanned it,
>>>>> and there is a (presumably illegal) electronic PDF
>>>>> versions downloadable. Don't ask me where.
>>>>
>>>>I am in awe of someone who would scan something as massive and
>>>>emphemeral as _Books in Print_. Each volume is at least a thousand pages
>>>>long, and they're big, multi-columned pages too. Doing that for
>>>>something that's out of date as soon as it's published is...well, it's
>>>>*something*, at least.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Andrew Wheeler
>>>
>>> I wish someone would do this for old phonebooks. It's surprisingly hard
>>> to
>>> find old ones on sale online, and it would be really nice to have some
>>> of
>>> those old yellowpages ads for information about what was where when. I
>>> would
>>> think the info in Books In Print would have some historical interest
>>> too..
>>>
>>> Ted
>>> --
>>> ------
>>> columbiaclosings.com
>>> What's not in Columbia anymore..
>>
>>I think major research and archive libraries do keep copies of old phone
>>books and directories, for historical research purposes.
>>
>>--
>>Mike Dworetsky
>
> Yeah, true. But it's too time consuming to go digging into for a hobby
> blog,
> at least often. The world should conform to *my* wants, darn it!
>
>
> Ted
Absolutely, Ted. It's SO frustrating coping with reality....no, really.
Incidentally, I am having to get rid of a lot of my older magazines and
books, and was pleased to discover that if your library has a sub you can
get _Physics Today_ on line back to 1985. Along with many other journals
and mags.
Phone books may be similarly archived.
The London Times has an indexed online version going back to the 18th
century. though again your library has to subscribe.
--
Mike Dworetsky
(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)
John F. Eldredge
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>That would help explain (a little bit) the outcomes of many of your
>>>experiments.
>>
>> What kind of accident can you have in a physics class?
>
> Physics includes:
> electricity, say no more say no more
> gravity, often demonstrated by inclined planes and rolling balls and
> pendulums magnetism, including extremely strong rare-earth magnets heat
> and thermodynamics
> laws of motion, momentum & kinetic energy and several other
> interestingly-demonstrable things.
>
> See also: Jearl Walker. "He has been known to stick his hand in molten
> lead, walk barefoot over hot coals, lie on a bed of nails, and pour
> freezing-cold liquid nitrogen in his mouth to demonstrate various
> principles of physics." Sounds like your kind of science class,
> actually.
>
> Dave "Wikipedia does not seem to think he has either died or retired
> yet, yay!"
> DeLaney
You also have the case where the physics teacher tries to teach a lesson
about chemistry, without benefit of the chemistry lab's vent hoods. At
one point, my high-school physics teacher decided to teach his class how
to etch glass. He borrowed a bottle of hydrofluoric acid from the
chemistry lab next door (probably without the knowledge of the chemistry
teacher), set a pane of glass on an open windowsill (for ventilation),
and drew a pattern on the glass with the hydrofluoric acid.
Unfortunately, a few minutes later, the wind shifted and started blowing
acid fumes into the classroom. The classroom ended up having to be
sealed off for the rest of the day, with a rag stuffed into the crack
under the door to block the fumes from spreading into the rest of the
school building, and the physics lecture had to be given in the school
library for the remainder of the day. I don't recall any evidence that
any special clean-up was performed on the physics classroom.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Jacey Bedford
Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes
>Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>> On 5 Sep, 03:05, wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>>> In article
>>><85ab1cb4-3b47-4502-b7ed-14b217a98...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>>> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> said:
>>>
>>>> "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> math textbook. (Second-year alegbra, and brand-new, so there
>>>>> were no used copies available.)
>>>> the book ?
>>> Then either (a) despite not being rich they live in a wealthy
>>> school district and the schools supply the students with all
>>> their academic needs or
>> So it is not the case for all schools that students have to
>> buy their own books. How's things before highschool?
>
> (codgermode)
>
> Back when *I* went to school, schoolbooks were handed out in
>class, you gave them back at the end of the school year, and your
>parents didn't have to pay for them. After all, they already WERE
>paying for them. That applied through high school, as far as I know.
And there was a long list of names and dates of the previous holders of
the book on the endpapers. I recall being given a Latin textbook that
someone my mum had been to school with had had before me. Luckily not
much changes in Latin... But some of the Geography text books were
almost as old and well-used...
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
jacey at artisan hyphen harmony dot com
posting via usenet and not googlegroups, ourdebate
or any other forum that reprints usenet posts as
though they were the forum's own
Mark Zenier
Steve <steve....@parsethissff.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 21:10:25 -0700 (PDT), Spiros Bousbouras
><spi...@gmail.com> wrotD:
>
>
>
>>> > I did and by the scarcity of results I'm guessing it is out
>>> > of print but I'm trying to be sure because I want to suggest
>>> > to Dover Publications of buying the rights.
>
>IIRC Dover typically reprints public domain stuff. Out of print us not
>sufficient.
There are other publishers that do reprints.
http://www.krieger-publishing.com/
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
mimus
> In article <1kjvb4hhcfs8tagju...@4ax.com>,
> Steve <steve....@parsethissff.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 21:10:25 -0700 (PDT), Spiros Bousbouras
>> <spi...@gmail.com> wrotD:
>>
>>> I did and by the scarcity of results I'm guessing it is out
>>> of print but I'm trying to be sure because I want to suggest
>>> to Dover Publications of buying the rights.
>>
>> IIRC Dover typically reprints public domain stuff. Out of print us not
>> sufficient.
>
> There are other publishers that do reprints.
> http://www.krieger-publishing.com/
http://www.buccaneerbooks.com/
Their list changes, I guess as editions sell out-- I picked up Pynchon's
_V._ and _The Crying of Lot 49_ from them in plain black bindings without
jackets, and they're not there any more.
Tell whoever bites that they should do _Moderan_ and _The Unorthodox
Engineers_, too ;^)~.
Not to mention Winter-Berger's _The Washington Pay-Off_ and "Suvorov's"
(Rezun's) _Icebreaker_ (whatever the Viking translation was, wot
apparently the translator is living with Salman Rushdie in a sewer under
Buckingham Palace by now or something).
--
"The math is easy," said Chaos.
< _Thief of Time_
Walter Bushell
"John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
> "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
> than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
No wonder the Christians had her put down.
Michael Stemper
>In article <slrngc3us...@gatekeeper.vic.com>, David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> What kind of accident can you have in a physics class?
>>
>>Physics includes:
>>electricity, say no more say no more
>
> We didn't get a lot on that, actually. Half a term, maybe?
>
> I don't consider hand-wound coils shorting out an accident
>as such, Wait, there was a lab where the teacher got confused about
>DC vs AC sources.
I don't recall if any of my physics labs included electrical experiments.
But, as a EE majoring in Power Systems, I did get to play with some big
stuff in my EE labs. Specifically, in the Rotating Machinery lab, there
was the time that I needed to measure the power consumption of a machine
as a function of something or other. I did pretty well until I got to
hooking up the Watt-meter, at which time I thought that the leads for
current were the leads for voltage.
Applying a direct short across 200 Vdc is not recommended practice.
Given that a large breaker across the room tripped -- quite loudly --
I'm going to have to guess that whatever fuse the Watt-meter had in
it did not have time to melt. The coil inside the meter probably did,
though.
Being somewhat nearsighted meant that I was holding the connectors within
half a foot of my eyes when I made the connection. The flash was really
impressive.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Economists have correctly predicted seven of the last three recessions.
Paul Ian Harman
news:g9rloq$cf$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
> Back when *I* went to school, schoolbooks were handed out in class, you
> gave them back at the end of the school year, and your parents didn't have
> to pay for them. After all, they already WERE paying for them. That
> applied through high school, as far as I know.
Same in the UK, late 80s/early 90s. The exception were the books for English
Literature, which we had to buy because WE WERE FORCED TO WRITE NOTES ON THE
MARGINS. I still recoil in horror that we were made to deface books like
that. I see people on trains taking highlighter pens to their textbooks, and
whimper.
Paul
Joel Olson
"Paul Ian Harman" <dev-...@harman-on-the.net> wrote in message
news:6j72gcF...@mid.individual.net...
I suspect the highlighting is more the expression of a wish to remember than
it
is an effective tool.
-----------------------
Can you remember ever asking or being asked in school a question like 'if
such and such occurs, what will happen?'? ... the world is changing so
rapidly
that a future-orientation is essential for everybody. Its development in
schools is our best insurance against a generation of 'future shock'
sufferers. - N. Postman
-----------------------
Default User
>
> "Paul Ian Harman" <dev-...@harman-on-the.net> wrote in message
> news:6j72gcF...@mid.individual.net...
> > Same in the UK, late 80s/early 90s. The exception were the books
> > for English Literature, which we had to buy because WE WERE FORCED
> > TO WRITE NOTES ON THE MARGINS. I still recoil in horror that we
> > were made to deface books like that. I see people on trains taking
> > highlighter pens to their textbooks, and whimper.
> I suspect the highlighting is more the expression of a wish to
> remember than it is an effective tool.
Way back when I was a stoojent, I used to see some people highlighting
nearly every line in the text. I couldn't figure out the utility. I
never highlighted, but then I usually only read the text late and in a
hurry.
Sometimes I'd buy pre-highlighted used texts. The key there was to make
sure the highlighting went all the way through. If it stopped halfway,
then the goober dropped the class, so the highlighting couldn't be
trusted.
I wasn't that great a student in my first go-round. My return to
scolarship in my late 30s was much more workmanlike.
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Paul Ian Harman
news:%Yuzk.293$as4...@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
> I suspect the highlighting is more the expression of a wish to remember
> than it is an effective tool.
Mmm. I found the most effective revision technique was to write summaries of
the teaching materials - slides, my own notes - made during the course. Then
during the exams I could usually recall the experience of writing the
summaries, hence remember the material - and the memory of writing the
summary usually summoned the memory of the original lecture.
Highlighting someone else's words would not have had anywhere near the same
effect.
Paul
Kurt Busiek
> Joel Olson wrote:
>
>> "Paul Ian Harman" <dev-...@harman-on-the.net> wrote in message
>> news:6j72gcF...@mid.individual.net...
>
>>> Same in the UK, late 80s/early 90s. The exception were the books
>>> for English Literature, which we had to buy because WE WERE FORCED
>>> TO WRITE NOTES ON THE MARGINS. I still recoil in horror that we
>>> were made to deface books like that. I see people on trains taking
>>> highlighter pens to their textbooks, and whimper.
>
>> I suspect the highlighting is more the expression of a wish to
>> remember than it is an effective tool.
>
> Way back when I was a stoojent, I used to see some people highlighting
> nearly every line in the text. I couldn't figure out the utility. I
> never highlighted, but then I usually only read the text late and in a
> hurry.
>
> Sometimes I'd buy pre-highlighted used texts.
That wouldn't have worked for me.
The way my brain works, it's the act of taking notes, or choosing what
to highlight, that makes it stick in my memory. Just having someone
else's notes wouldn't have the same effect.
kdb
erilar
I used to use different colors of ink to highlight my notes. I reviewed
notes, not the text.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is
that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo