Epic Fantasy Tropes
Konrad Gaertner
thinking a bit about some common tropes of epic fantasy (Sanderson
didn't really do anything new with this book).
1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
past several thousand years that might be useful? Steven Erikson is
the main exception to this rule, and of course urban fantasy is happy
to test tasers against vampires. It's possible Sanderson will
subvert this later (apparently 1000 pages isn't enough to give anyone
a chance to try the new tech against the old enemies).
2. Some characters claim the only way to establish lasting peace is
co-dependence through forced specialization. I first saw this in
Frank Herbert's _The Godmakers_ (not epic fantasy) where the example
given was having one village only make shovel handles, and their
neighbors only make shovel blades. In tWoK, we're told that the
previous time the main kingdom was united, peace was keep by having
the ruler of each province in charge of a different part of the
government: a Highprince of War, a Highprince of Justice, a
Highprince of Trade, etc.
Am I the only one who finds this idea totally naive? If these
polities are so determined to fight each other, what makes you think
they'd obey laws that hurt their profits? It sounds like the author
is trying to have checks and balances without rule of law.
3. Why would anyone think uniting warring nations be easier if you
first assassinate their rulers?
4. What is it with fantasy worlds having seasons of unpredictable
lengths?
--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - email: kgae...@tx.rr.com
http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/
"I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface."
-- James Nicoll
Dorothy J Heydt
Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>I just finished Brandon Sanderson's _The Way of Kings_, which has me
>thinking a bit about some common tropes of epic fantasy (Sanderson
>didn't really do anything new with this book).
>
>1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
>past several thousand years that might be useful? Steven Erikson is
>the main exception to this rule, and of course urban fantasy is happy
>to test tasers against vampires. It's possible Sanderson will
>subvert this later (apparently 1000 pages isn't enough to give anyone
>a chance to try the new tech against the old enemies).
>
>2. Some characters claim the only way to establish lasting peace is
>co-dependence through forced specialization. I first saw this in
>Frank Herbert's _The Godmakers_ (not epic fantasy) where the example
>given was having one village only make shovel handles, and their
>neighbors only make shovel blades.
How very medieval. In the real Middle Ages, to make a belt knife
required the work of five separate guilds: one for the blade,one
for the tang, one for the pommel, one for the handgrip, and one
for the sheath. (I THINK that's how they divided it up. It's
been a while.) It was period job security.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
Joel Olson
news:L9HzD...@kithrup.com...
>
This brings to mind Jane Jacobs comments on the "division of labor".
"Smith gave to division of labor unwarranted credit for advances
in economic life, a mistake still much with us. _Division of labor,
in itself, creates nothing._ It is only a way of organizing work
that has already been created.
Division of labor is a device for achieving operating efficiency,
nothing more. Of itself, it has no power to promote further economic
development. And because it does not, division of labor is even
extraordinarily limited at improving operating efficiency in any
given work."
Norm D. Plumber
>3. Why would anyone think uniting warring nations be easier if you
>first assassinate their rulers?
Because the warring nations could then unite against the folks who
assassinated their rulers? You know, those rulers who keep them in a
state of war against their neighbors are much-loved, at least by those
profiting from the arms business.
>4. What is it with fantasy worlds having seasons of unpredictable
>lengths?
It's no big deal, just global warming caused by the breath of
thousands of dragons waking from their annual nap... if you want
predictable seasons, give alarm clocks to the dragons.
--
What is trumps what should be, and what we expect, every time.
Ilya2
> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
> past several thousand years that might be useful?
I would say more and more fantasy authors are ditching this trope
lately, or at least cautiously poking it with a stick. But it did
reign unquestioned for a few decades. As to why... I think the same
reason as for so many other fantasy tropes: BECAUSE THAT'S HOW TOLKIEN
DID IT.
Nothing new was invented in Middle Earth in thousands of years, at
least nothing new of any consequence, so that's how Tolkien imitators
(which is what fantasy pre-1990 pretty much was) have been doing it.
Robert Carnegie
> I just finished Brandon Sanderson's _The Way of Kings_, which has me
> thinking a bit about some common tropes of epic fantasy (Sanderson
> didn't really do anything new with this book).
>
> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
> past several thousand years that might be useful? Steven Erikson is
> the main exception to this rule, and of course urban fantasy is happy
> to test tasers against vampires. It's possible Sanderson will
> subvert this later (apparently 1000 pages isn't enough to give anyone
> a chance to try the new tech against the old enemies).
The same reasons as why the armed forces have reservists. When the
forces already mobilised are not enough to win the fight. The Ancient
Magic is usually a ready-made super-weapon that Evil hasn't defended
against, except when it has and you have to find the dungeon where
Ancient Magic was put by Evil.
> 2. Some characters claim the only way to establish lasting peace is
> co-dependence through forced specialization. I first saw this in
> Frank Herbert's _The Godmakers_ (not epic fantasy) where the example
> given was having one village only make shovel handles, and their
> neighbors only make shovel blades. In tWoK, we're told that the
> previous time the main kingdom was united, peace was keep by having
> the ruler of each province in charge of a different part of the
> government: a Highprince of War, a Highprince of Justice, a
> Highprince of Trade, etc.
>
> Am I the only one who finds this idea totally naive? If these
> polities are so determined to fight each other, what makes you think
> they'd obey laws that hurt their profits? It sounds like the author
> is trying to have checks and balances without rule of law.
Guilds and their trade secrets are historic fact. I think I've heard
Venetian glass-makers mentioned. Basically, mess with Venice and
you'll be sorry next time you want a window repaired.
> 3. Why would anyone think uniting warring nations be easier if you
> first assassinate their rulers?
Quite probably the rulers have rivals whose political opinions are
different. It's "regime change", apparently.
> 4. What is it with fantasy worlds having seasons of unpredictable
> lengths?
Huh? I think that only arises on planets of star systems with
complicated orbital mechanics, or when Evil has an effect on the
weather, such as in Tolkien (Mordor: very cloudy) or C. S. Lewis
(Narnia, Faunsicles) or Norse mythology (frost-giants).
Cryptoengineer
467c-bde3-f...@k10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
Nitpick: 'Venetian glass' doesn't usually include window glass, though
I'm sure some came out of the isle of Murano for local use. Rather, VG is
highly ornamental glass items.
Venetian glassmakers were forbidden to leave the Serene Republic (though
their artistic works were an important export), so their influence on
window glass making elsewhere was minimal.
Its the French glassmakers in Rouen that you don't want to piss off, or
you'll get no Crown Glass (which was their secret) for your windows.
pt
Ilmari Karonen
> I just finished Brandon Sanderson's _The Way of Kings_, which has me
> thinking a bit about some common tropes of epic fantasy (Sanderson
> didn't really do anything new with this book).
>
> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
> past several thousand years that might be useful? Steven Erikson is
> the main exception to this rule, and of course urban fantasy is happy
> to test tasers against vampires. It's possible Sanderson will
> subvert this later (apparently 1000 pages isn't enough to give anyone
> a chance to try the new tech against the old enemies).
I'd say this is just one specific manifestation of a more fundamental
trope, namely that of the Golden Age (a.k.a. "it was all so much nicer
before..."), which so widely permeates the fantasy genre. The trope
itself is ancient: the name dates back to ancient Greece, and I
wouldn't be surprised if the idea itself was much, much older than
that.
In any case, if you accept the premise of an Ancient Evil, once
banished but now returning -- seemingly unstoppable -- to threaten
civilization, then looking for the Ancient Magic that was used to
defeat it before does seem like a reasonable thing to try. Hey, it
worked last time, didn't it?
--
Ilmari Karonen
To reply by e-mail, please replace ".invalid" with ".net" in address.
Kurt Busiek
> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
> rediscovering the Ancient Magic?
Because fighting the Ancient Evil by building Something New is
essentially a Science Fiction trope?
At least, there's gotta be an argument made along those lines.
I take a certain pride, though, in having written a fantasy work, the
graphic novel ARROWSMITH, in which the problem the heroes face is that
they're fighting the Ancient Evil by industrializing magic, and
creating new applications for it, something that has triggered a
sorcerous arms race.
Of course, like lots of things in SF and fantasy, I stole it from history.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Andrew Plotkin
>
> In any case, if you accept the premise of an Ancient Evil, once
> banished but now returning -- seemingly unstoppable -- to threaten
> civilization, then looking for the Ancient Magic that was used to
> defeat it before does seem like a reasonable thing to try. Hey, it
> worked last time, didn't it?
If the Ancient Evil can be stopped with readily-available modern
weapons or tools or steam engines or whatever, it's not so much an
Ancient Evil as an Ancient Hassle.
--Z ("chap with the wings, five rounds rapid")
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
JimboCat
> On 2010-09-28 16:25:26 -0700, Konrad Gaertner <kgaert...@tx.rr.com> said:
>
> > 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
> > rediscovering the Ancient Magic?
>
> Because fighting the Ancient Evil by building Something New is
> essentially a Science Fiction trope?
Vinge's _A Fire Upon the Deep_ is pretty Science Fictiony, but uses
the Ancient Evil fought with Ancient Magic trope. Even though both the
Evil and the Magic are technological in nature, they are technology
that is far beyond human understanding and therefore, by Clarke's Law,
magic. IMHO, YMMV, etc.
Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"My homework ate the dog" -- Nanotech 101 excuse
Kurt Busiek
> On Sep 29, 11:29 am, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>> On 2010-09-28 16:25:26 -0700, Konrad Gaertner <kgaert...@tx.rr.com> said:
>>
>>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic?
>>
>> Because fighting the Ancient Evil by building Something New is
>> essentially a Science Fiction trope?
>
> Vinge's _A Fire Upon the Deep_ is pretty Science Fictiony, but uses
> the Ancient Evil fought with Ancient Magic trope.
I don't think I meant the above to imply that SF limits itself to one trope.
But it's often fun to see classic tropes from one genre or subgenre
reworked in another genre's setting. I'm enjoying THE SIXTH GUN, which
is very much a Classic Epic Fantasy, including the "one ring to rule
them all," but while it's full of magic and fantasy structures, it's
set in the Old West, and the "rings" are cursed revolvers.
Michael Stemper
>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? =A0Was there nothing invented in the
>> past several thousand years that might be useful? =A0
>
>I would say more and more fantasy authors are ditching this trope
>lately, or at least cautiously poking it with a stick. But it did
>reign unquestioned for a few decades. As to why... I think the same
>reason as for so many other fantasy tropes: BECAUSE THAT'S HOW TOLKIEN
>DID IT.
>
>Nothing new was invented in Middle Earth in thousands of years, at
>least nothing new of any consequence, so that's how Tolkien imitators
>(which is what fantasy pre-1990 pretty much was) have been doing it.
I think that your window's too wide. There was a lot of non-Tolkien-
imitating fantasy before the early 1970s.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
This email is to be read by its intended recipient only. Any other party
reading is required by the EULA to send me $500.00.
Juho Julkunen
@l20g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, il...@rcn.com says...
>
> > 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
> > rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
> > past several thousand years that might be useful?
>
> I would say more and more fantasy authors are ditching this trope
> lately, or at least cautiously poking it with a stick. But it did
> reign unquestioned for a few decades. As to why... I think the same
> reason as for so many other fantasy tropes: BECAUSE THAT'S HOW TOLKIEN
> DID IT.
Tolkien did it like that? What ancient magic did the heroes set out to
find to defeat Sauron with?
The reason it's done is that western fantasy authors are part of a
literary tradition originating in medieval Europe where ancients who
could do marvellous things no longer possible were a common trope.
What inspired the idea for lesser kingdoms living amidst relics of
great ancient civilization now passed is... well, bloody obvious,
really.
--
Juho Julkunen
Dorothy J Heydt
Ilya2 <il...@rcn.com> wrote:
>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
>> past several thousand years that might be useful?
>
>I would say more and more fantasy authors are ditching this trope
>lately, or at least cautiously poking it with a stick. But it did
>reign unquestioned for a few decades. As to why... I think the same
>reason as for so many other fantasy tropes: BECAUSE THAT'S HOW TOLKIEN
>DID IT.
But the reason Tolkien did it that way was that he was following
a medieval theme, that there had once been a Golden Age and ever
since things had been degenerating. Old buildings were better
built than new buildings, old swords were better than new swords,
et cetera. And for a long time during the Middle Ages, that was
true.
Indeed, the trope started up in classical times, but then it
referred to morals, not technology.
The real difference between Tolkien and his imitators -- other
than the fact that he was a better writer than they were -- is
that he was following original sources and they were following
him. It's been described as "the work of the third artist"; do
you know that metaphor? If not, I'll expound it in a later post.
Michael Stemper
>On 2010-09-28 16:25:26 -0700, Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com> said:
>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic?
>
>Because fighting the Ancient Evil by building Something New is
>essentially a Science Fiction trope?
>
>At least, there's gotta be an argument made along those lines.
That is certainly a valid distinguishing characteristic of the
two genres. It also reminds me of a thought that I got from
_Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire_:
The spell that was used to
<rot-26 for spoiler protection>
re-incarnate Voldemort
</rot26>
seemed to have been designed for the occasion. Looking back, the spells
that were used to pass Deryni powers from King to heir were also
custom-designed.
Is there any fantasy out there that actually shows people (or a
lone, mad genius) designing and creating new spells?
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
This sentence no verb.
David Johnston
<kgae...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>I just finished Brandon Sanderson's _The Way of Kings_, which has me
>thinking a bit about some common tropes of epic fantasy (Sanderson
>didn't really do anything new with this book).
>
>1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>rediscovering the Ancient Magic?
Because whatever was used to defeat it before has a proven track
record.
> Was there nothing invented in the
>past several thousand years that might be useful?
Several thousand years of significant technological advancement is
likely by its nature produce something that isn't epic fantasy. You
are more likely to end up with modern or science fantasy. That being
said, in the Elenium the Ancient Evil deploys pseudo-Spartans from its
time, who are fairly promptly ripped apart by pseudo-medieval knights.
In the Warded Man, while the wards themselves may be old, the way he
is using them is decidedly novel. In the something of Shannara
series, while the Druids may be thinking of the stuff they are coming
up with as being a revival of something, the truth is they are
fundamentally inventing it from scratch with no idea whether anyone
had their specific inventions before. (Something that is very common
in occult circles where innovators gives themselves legitimacy by
pretending their stuff is age-old wisdom.). And then in A Song of Ice
and Fire...well nobody cares about the Ancient Evil. They're all too
busy being evil themselves.
>3. Why would anyone think uniting warring nations be easier if you
>first assassinate their rulers?
Because the first step to taking over a government is to create a
power vacuum.
>
>4. What is it with fantasy worlds having seasons of unpredictable
>lengths?
My town has seasons of unpredictable length. Why wouldn't a fantasy
world?
Remus Shepherd
> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
> past several thousand years that might be useful?
Two reasons, in my opinion.
One is Tolkien. His Middle Earth was a world where most of the great
things had passed away, and what remained was destined to vanish by the
end of the LOTR. There's a powerful sense of loss through all of his
books. All of that probably comes from Tolkien's experiences in WWI,
which brutally disillusioned him about human beings and war.
The second cause of this trope is that it was a common sentiment
during the dark ages. The Roman Empire represented the height of
technology and (in its later years) the power of God's church, and when
it fell its loss was felt for a thousand years. A lot of technological
knowledge was lost, and during the Middle Ages those countries that
rediscovered Roman-era technology had an edge over their neighbors.
So the value of rediscovered knowledge that had been long lost is part
of our history and our psychology. It's no wonder it shows up in our
literature.
... ...
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com>
New Webcomic: Genocide Man http://www.genocideman.com/
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
Stewart Robert Hinsley
<mste...@walkabout.empros.com> writes
Are the Lord Darcy whodunits fantasy?
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Kurt Busiek
Stemper) said:
> In article <i7vm05$jof$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Kurt Busiek
> <ku...@busiek.com> writes:
>> On 2010-09-28 16:25:26 -0700, Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com> said:
>
>>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic?
>>
>> Because fighting the Ancient Evil by building Something New is
>> essentially a Science Fiction trope?
>>
>> At least, there's gotta be an argument made along those lines.
>
> That is certainly a valid distinguishing characteristic of the
> two genres. It also reminds me of a thought that I got from
> _Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire_:
>
> The spell that was used to
> <rot-26 for spoiler protection>
rot-26?
> Is there any fantasy out there that actually shows people (or a
> lone, mad genius) designing and creating new spells?
As noted, my ARROWSMITH series had military research wizards in it.
I think there was similar stuff implied in THE MISENCHANTED SWORD, at
least. The idea that wizards develop new spells (that are then named
after them) is a part of Ethshar.
I'm sure there are other examples.
Joel Olson
news:Xns9E026D24677ADt...@216.196.97.131...
>
If by window glass you mean clear glass, it wasn't developed until way
late in the day. All those stained glass windows - in those days, ALL glass
was some color.
Michael Stemper
>In message <i7vsit$thh$2...@news.eternal-september.org>, Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> writes
>>In article <i7vm05$jof$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> writes:
>>>On 2010-09-28 16:25:26 -0700, Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com> said:
>>>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>>>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic?
>>>
>>>Because fighting the Ancient Evil by building Something New is
>>>essentially a Science Fiction trope?
>>>
>>>At least, there's gotta be an argument made along those lines.
>>
>>That is certainly a valid distinguishing characteristic of the
>>two genres. It also reminds me of a thought that I got from
>>_Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire_:
>>
>>The spell that was used to
>>re-incarnate Voldemort
>>seemed to have been designed for the occasion. Looking back, the spells
>>that were used to pass Deryni powers from King to heir were also
>>custom-designed.
>>
>>Is there any fantasy out there that actually shows people (or a
>>lone, mad genius) designing and creating new spells?
>
>Are the Lord Darcy whodunits fantasy?
That's a very good point, and also a worthwhile question. I'm not
sure how to address both the point and the question independently,
because they're very intimately tied together.
If they're SF[1], they are (to me, duh!) SF because they treat magic as
something amenable to rigorous analytical study. In _Too Many Magicians_,
we have people presenting academic papers at conferences (with pre-prints
available, IIRC). We have people -- incapable of using magic themselves --
doing mathematical modeling of magical structures.
So, being able to analyze, design, and synthesize a new spell (with
peer review, yet!) seems to say "non-fantasy".
Yet, there are examples of stories that play by more pure fantasy
rules (such as the examples that I gave previously) and also have
(behind the scenes, at least) creation of new spells.
Maybe it's the "behind-the-scenes" that allows these stories to
remain fantasy. Food for thought.
[1] In the exclusive sense, this time.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Product Manager
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Economists have correctly predicted seven of the last three recessions.
Joel Olson
news:i7vsit$thh$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
Stile, on Phaze.
Michael Stemper
>On 2010-09-29 10:21:33 -0700, mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) said:
>> In article <i7vm05$jof$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> writes:
>>> On 2010-09-28 16:25:26 -0700, Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com> said:
>>> Because fighting the Ancient Evil by building Something New is
>>> essentially a Science Fiction trope?
>>>
>>> At least, there's gotta be an argument made along those lines.
>>
>> That is certainly a valid distinguishing characteristic of the
>> two genres. It also reminds me of a thought that I got from
>> _Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire_:
>>
>> The spell that was used to
>> <rot-26 for spoiler protection>
>
>rot-26?
If once is good, twice is better! It's like two-thirds of triple-DES.
>> Is there any fantasy out there that actually shows people (or a
>> lone, mad genius) designing and creating new spells?
>
>As noted, my ARROWSMITH series had military research wizards in it.
Oh, yeah, you did mention that.
>I think there was similar stuff implied in THE MISENCHANTED SWORD, at
>least. The idea that wizards develop new spells (that are then named
>after them) is a part of Ethshar.
I was wondering, in the back of my mind, if such things did go on
in Ethshar.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Stewart Robert Hinsley
There's another "engineering magic" story with the magic research more
up front in the story - Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos". I don't
recall whether Heinlein's "Magic, Inc." or Turtledove's "The Case of the
Toxic Spell Dump" have any research on or off stage.
Tangentially, does any of the modern urban fantasy genre have research
into magic?
>
>So, being able to analyze, design, and synthesize a new spell (with
>peer review, yet!) seems to say "non-fantasy".
>
>Yet, there are examples of stories that play by more pure fantasy
>rules (such as the examples that I gave previously) and also have
>(behind the scenes, at least) creation of new spells.
>
>Maybe it's the "behind-the-scenes" that allows these stories to
>remain fantasy. Food for thought.
>
>
>[1] In the exclusive sense, this time.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Andrew Plotkin
>
> Tangentially, does any of the modern urban fantasy genre have research
> into magic?
Some. I just read, I think it was _Magic to the Bone_, where magical
technology is being developed (and stolen, and litigated about, and
regulared by the government) by new magic-tech companies after It
Comes Back. It's the underlying plot thread.
Pratchett has an occasional off-hand remark about research wizards
(and witches) in his fantasy novels. They're not protagonists, but
they occasionally whiz past the protagonists (at high velocity,
smoking).
--Z
Stewart Robert Hinsley
<erky...@eblong.com> writes
>Here, Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Tangentially, does any of the modern urban fantasy genre have research
>> into magic?
>
>Some. I just read, I think it was _Magic to the Bone_, where magical
>technology is being developed (and stolen, and litigated about, and
>regulared by the government) by new magic-tech companies after It
>Comes Back. It's the underlying plot thread.
>
>Pratchett has an occasional off-hand remark about research wizards
>(and witches) in his fantasy novels. They're not protagonists, but
>they occasionally whiz past the protagonists (at high velocity,
>smoking).
Ponder Stibbons (of the High Energy Magic department) is a significant
and recurring character. You've also reminded me that Ankh-Morpork's
Alchemists Guild practices research - is alchemy magic?
>
>--Z
>
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>There's another "engineering magic" story with the magic research more
>up front in the story - Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos". I don't
>recall whether Heinlein's "Magic, Inc." or Turtledove's "The Case of the
>Toxic Spell Dump" have any research on or off stage.
Turtledove's magical WWII series had a magical Manhatten project -- I bailed
before the final book(s?) but presumably given how closely all his other
protag nations mapped into our world, they would have come up with
some sort of magical A-Bomb.
>
>Tangentially, does any of the modern urban fantasy genre have research
>into magic?
It's not research, as such (ie using the scientific method) but people
come up with *new* *stuff* in a number of UF series.
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dimensional Traveler
And he got it from folklore and stories from societies heavily
influenced by all the ruins of a more advanced civilization around them.
(Roman ruins, BTW.)
Yes, yes, I know that Europe didn't actually fall all that far
technologically during the Middle Ages but the peasants still lived
surrounded by ruins of things that were being built or even maintained
anymore.
--
"There's something that doesn't make sense. Let's go and poke it with a
stick."
erilar
Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
> 4. What is it with fantasy worlds having seasons of unpredictable
> lengths?
That's realism 8-)
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist
David DeLaney
>3. Why would anyone think uniting warring nations be easier if you
>first assassinate their rulers?
That one's easy - it DOES unite them. ...against YOU.
>4. What is it with fantasy worlds having seasons of unpredictable lengths?
Not all of them have gods that understand the laws of physics and math, and
where they should be left alone to do their thing.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>Tolkien did it like that? What ancient magic did the heroes set out to
>find to defeat Sauron with?
...This small round piece of ancient magic that fits on a finger, maybe?
Dave "and it blowed him up REAL good" DeLaney
David Johnston
<re...@panix.com> wrote:
>Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
>> past several thousand years that might be useful?
>
> Two reasons, in my opinion.
>
> One is Tolkien. His Middle Earth was a world where most of the great
>things had passed away, and what remained was destined to vanish by the
>end of the LOTR. There's a powerful sense of loss through all of his
>books. All of that probably comes from Tolkien's experiences in WWI,
>which brutally disillusioned him about human beings and war.
I'd say it comes from his Christianity, which portrays humanity as
being in a constant state of decline with shortening life expectancies
and miracles becoming fewer and farther between.
David DeLaney
>> 4. What is it with fantasy worlds having seasons of unpredictable lengths?
>
>complicated orbital mechanics, or when Evil has an effect on the
>weather, such as in Tolkien (Mordor: very cloudy) or C. S. Lewis
>(Narnia, Faunsicles) or Norse mythology (frost-giants).
Or Donaldson (the Sunbane).
Dave
Wayne Throop
::: rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
::: past several thousand years that might be useful?
:: BECAUSE THAT'S HOW TOLKIEN DID IT.
: Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com>
: Tolkien did it like that? What ancient magic did the heroes set out
: to find to defeat Sauron with?
Mt Doom. Had powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal mountains,
and was the only thing that could unmake the One Ring, onaccounta it
was what was used to make it in the first place.
And in general, nobody has developed any new Ring-making technology for
eons. I suppose that's partly because if they used anything building on
the Three Rings, they were subject to the One. But even if that weren't
so, in general, the Elves weren't doing New Stuff at all. And nobody
else was close to their technology.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Remus Shepherd
> Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Tolkien did it like that? What ancient magic did the heroes set out to
> >find to defeat Sauron with?
> ...This small round piece of ancient magic that fits on a finger, maybe?
Or the mithril armor, the elven cloaks, the dagger Sting, the Light
of Earendil, the Palantirs, or just the help of the Ents? Hell, one could
make a case that the whole journey would have failed if not for the Lembas
bread.
David Johnston
Yes. For example the Deryni develop new spells in the course of the
series, like for example the healing technique that can switch off
someone's Deryni powers and make them immune to merasha. They just
forget as much as they learn although that can be blamed on the pogrom
killing most of those of who knew the old stuff. I recently read a
modern fantasy novel which pointed out part of the problem. The
heroine who has a powerful and highly trained magical gift encounters
a hero who balks her attack using a method of creating a a magical
shield. She learns how to copy his shielding technique and combines
it with having learned how to make super-precise attacks to create a
superior shielding techique that lets her attack at the same time she
shields herself from attack.
She's invented a new spell, one the hero has never heard of before, he
having to drop his shield and quickly put it back up again if he wants
to attack and defend. But...nobody who was less trained and powerful
than she is could learn the spell she's invented. Most likely her
trick will be lost to the ages when she dies because the next
generation is unlikely to contain anyone with her olympic athlete
combination of talent and training who will have the opportunity to
learn from her. It's less about what she knows than what she can do.
David Johnston
<{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>There's another "engineering magic" story with the magic research more
>up front in the story - Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos". I don't
>recall whether Heinlein's "Magic, Inc." or Turtledove's "The Case of the
>Toxic Spell Dump" have any research on or off stage.
>
>Tangentially, does any of the modern urban fantasy genre have research
>into magic?
Harry Dresden does research into magic, and he isn't even one of the
more scholarly magicians of his world. In the Rogue Agent series by
K.E. Mills, one of the leads is a research and development magician
genius.
Wayne Throop
: I think there was similar stuff implied in THE MISENCHANTED SWORD, at
: least. The idea that wizards develop new spells (that are then named
: after them) is a part of Ethshar.
Yes indeed. And research wizards are exceedingly rare, because
in the normal course of events, messing with variations on use
of chaos is very *very* risky. Fendel the Great is the only one
we've seen onstage; some of the other ones we've heard of came
to bad ends of various sorts, iirc.
: I'm sure there are other examples.
How about Tinker (Wren Spencer's technomage)?
Wayne Throop
:::: lone, mad genius) designing and creating new spells?
: thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
: How about Tinker (Wren Spencer's technomage)?
Or, perhaps better, Rick Cook's "Wizard's Bane" series,
or (imo better) Swann's "Broken Crescent".
Michael Stemper
>On 2010-09-28, Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
>> past several thousand years that might be useful? Steven Erikson is
>> the main exception to this rule, and of course urban fantasy is happy
>> to test tasers against vampires. It's possible Sanderson will
>> subvert this later (apparently 1000 pages isn't enough to give anyone
>> a chance to try the new tech against the old enemies).
>
>I'd say this is just one specific manifestation of a more fundamental
>trope, namely that of the Golden Age (a.k.a. "it was all so much nicer
>before..."), which so widely permeates the fantasy genre. The trope
>itself is ancient: the name dates back to ancient Greece, and I
>wouldn't be surprised if the idea itself was much, much older than
>that.
>
>In any case, if you accept the premise of an Ancient Evil, once
>banished but now returning -- seemingly unstoppable -- to threaten
>civilization, then looking for the Ancient Magic that was used to
>defeat it before does seem like a reasonable thing to try. Hey, it
>worked last time, didn't it?
FSVO "worked". If the problem had been solved instead of postponed
last time, they wouldn't need to deal with it again. Gandalf argues
this persuasively in (I think) the Council of Rivendell.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
Michael Stemper
>Here, Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Tangentially, does any of the modern urban fantasy genre have research
>> into magic?
>
>Some. I just read, I think it was _Magic to the Bone_, where magical
>technology is being developed (and stolen, and litigated about, and
>regulared by the government) by new magic-tech companies after It
>Comes Back. It's the underlying plot thread.
>
>Pratchett has an occasional off-hand remark about research wizards
>(and witches) in his fantasy novels. They're not protagonists, but
>they occasionally whiz past the protagonists (at high velocity,
>smoking).
Which was how Luna Lovegood's mum bought it, right?
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
Michael Stemper
>Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Tolkien did it like that? What ancient magic did the heroes set out to
>>find to defeat Sauron with?
>
>...This small round piece of ancient magic that fits on a finger, maybe?
They weren't trying to find, or rediscover, that. If you look upstream,
you'll see the complaint is about people needing to rediscover old magic
to use against the enemy, not about people needing to destroy the enemy's
old magic.
You are Boromir, AICMFP
Andrew Plotkin
> In article <slrnia767...@gatekeeper.vic.com>, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:
> >Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>Tolkien did it like that? What ancient magic did the heroes set out to
> >>find to defeat Sauron with?
> >
> >...This small round piece of ancient magic that fits on a finger, maybe?
>
> They weren't trying to find, or rediscover, that. If you look upstream,
> you'll see the complaint is about people needing to rediscover old magic
> to use against the enemy, not about people needing to destroy the enemy's
> old magic.
It's _Sword of Shannara_ that fits this pattern, actually. So if you
thought that Brooks lifted *everything* from Tolkien... :)
He does the trope reasonably well. The Ancient Magic wasn't actually
lost; it was carefully preserved beneath an "open in case of Ancient
Evil" sign. The heroes only have to go off questing because the
Ancient Evil, not being completely fucking stupid, steals it first
thing.
--Z (thank you Wikipedia. I've forgotten all this stuff.)
Konrad Gaertner
>
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:25:26 -0500, Konrad Gaertner
> <kgae...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >I just finished Brandon Sanderson's _The Way of Kings_, which has me
> >thinking a bit about some common tropes of epic fantasy (Sanderson
> >didn't really do anything new with this book).
> >
> >rediscovering the Ancient Magic?
>
> record.
>
> > Was there nothing invented in the
> >past several thousand years that might be useful?
>
> likely by its nature produce something that isn't epic fantasy. You
> are more likely to end up with modern or science fantasy. That being
> said, in the Elenium the Ancient Evil deploys pseudo-Spartans from its
> time, who are fairly promptly ripped apart by pseudo-medieval knights.
> In the Warded Man, while the wards themselves may be old, the way he
> is using them is decidedly novel. In the something of Shannara
> series, while the Druids may be thinking of the stuff they are coming
> up with as being a revival of something, the truth is they are
> fundamentally inventing it from scratch with no idea whether anyone
> had their specific inventions before. (Something that is very common
> in occult circles where innovators gives themselves legitimacy by
> pretending their stuff is age-old wisdom.). And then in A Song of Ice
> and Fire...well nobody cares about the Ancient Evil. They're all too
> busy being evil themselves.
>
> >3. Why would anyone think uniting warring nations be easier if you
> >first assassinate their rulers?
>
> power vacuum.
>
> >
> >4. What is it with fantasy worlds having seasons of unpredictable
> >lengths?
>
> world?
--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - email: kgae...@tx.rr.com
http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/
"I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface."
-- James Nicoll
Konrad Gaertner
David Johnston wrote:
>
> >4. What is it with fantasy worlds having seasons of unpredictable
> >lengths?
>
> My town has seasons of unpredictable length. Why wouldn't a fantasy
> world?
Seasons that last no more than a couple weeks and it's really hard to
predict which one comes next?
Lawrence Watt-Evans
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>Is there any fantasy out there that actually shows people (or a
>lone, mad genius) designing and creating new spells?
The research wizards in Ethshar do that.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm serializing novels at http://www.ethshar.com/TheFinalCalling01.html
and http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight1.html
David Johnston
<kgae...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>(Sorry about the lack of new content in the previous post.)
>
>David Johnston wrote:
>>
>> >4. What is it with fantasy worlds having seasons of unpredictable
>> >lengths?
>>
>> My town has seasons of unpredictable length. Why wouldn't a fantasy
>> world?
>
>Seasons that last no more than a couple weeks and it's really hard to
>predict which one comes next?
Not especially common among fantasy worlds.
Dimensional Traveler
maintained anymore." *sigh*
Quadibloc
> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
> past several thousand years that might be useful?
Some fantasy stories have magic working like science, where wizards
apply basic laws of magic, try to think up new spells and see if they
work, and thereby add to the knowledge of magic.
In general, though, because magic doesn't seem to work *at all* on
_this_ prime material plane, there's no opportunity to research it
empirically. Instead, our legends about magic tend to talk about a
bygone age when gods and spirits walked the Earth and shared their
magical knowledge with certain wise men. And then, over time, this
knowledge was lost... and no _new_ knowledge was added, because the
gods and spirits didn't walk on the Earth any more.
Magic isn't something we find out about by research, it's something
revealed to us in its perfection from the beyond.
Of course, there's still the possibility of finding out about some of
the old spells by summoning up the spirit of an ancient wizard, or
doing astral travel to where the gods and spirits are walking now. But
in general, only a very few very powerful wizards can do that... and
what they add in that way is still only a fraction of what once
existed in the ancient times.
John Savard
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
I've remembered it all. Brooks almost completely INVERTED LotR, actually.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
W. Citoan
> David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
> > Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >Tolkien did it like that? What ancient magic did the heroes set out
> > >to find to defeat Sauron with?
>
> > ...This small round piece of ancient magic that fits on a finger,
> > maybe?
>
> Or the mithril armor, the elven cloaks, the dagger Sting, the Light
> of Earendil, the Palantirs, or just the help of the Ents? Hell, one
> could make a case that the whole journey would have failed if not for
> the Lembas bread.
None of which "did the heroes set out to find to defeat Sauron with".
- W. Citoan
--
Whatever you choose, do not seek to carry out easy tasks.
-- Adolf Von Baeyer
W. Citoan
The "Ancient Magic" did work, the people failed. Had the ring been
destroyed the first time, Sauron wouldn't have come back. That it
wasn't was not a failing with the magic itself.
Juho Julkunen
>
> David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
> > Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >Tolkien did it like that? What ancient magic did the heroes set out to
> > >find to defeat Sauron with?
>
> > ...This small round piece of ancient magic that fits on a finger, maybe?
Have you, in fact, read the book?
> Or the mithril armor, the elven cloaks, the dagger Sting, the Light
> of Earendil, the Palantirs, or just the help of the Ents? Hell, one could
> make a case that the whole journey would have failed if not for the Lembas
> bread.
Sure, they stumbled into some old toys, though the cloaks and lembas
were, I think, of current manufacture.
Which of those things did the heroes set out to find to use against
Sauron?
--
Juho Julkunen
Juho Julkunen
>
> ::: 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
> ::: rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
> ::: past several thousand years that might be useful?
>
> :: BECAUSE THAT'S HOW TOLKIEN DID IT.
>
> : Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com>
> : Tolkien did it like that? What ancient magic did the heroes set out
> : to find to defeat Sauron with?
>
> Mt Doom. Had powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal mountains,
> and was the only thing that could unmake the One Ring, onaccounta it
> was what was used to make it in the first place.
When you're right you're right.
--
Juho Julkunen
Greg Goss
>>If they're SF[1], they are (to me, duh!) SF because they treat magic as
>>something amenable to rigorous analytical study. In _Too Many Magicians_,
>>we have people presenting academic papers at conferences (with pre-prints
>>available, IIRC). We have people -- incapable of using magic themselves --
>>doing mathematical modeling of magical structures.
>
>There's another "engineering magic" story with the magic research more
>up front in the story - Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos". I don't
>recall whether Heinlein's "Magic, Inc." or Turtledove's "The Case of the
>Toxic Spell Dump" have any research on or off stage.
>
>Tangentially, does any of the modern urban fantasy genre have research
>into magic?
Niven's early "Magic goes away" stories had a certain amount of
engineering feel to them. The first of the Pournelle collaboration
books in that series had less of it, and I didn't read the following
book (books?)
I've been away from much of the genre to the point that I have little
feel for what's even meant by "urban fantasy". Lord Darcy's stuff
took place in cities ...
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27
Brian M. Scott
Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
<news:i80hba$tkc$1...@news.eternal-september.org> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> Brooks almost completely INVERTED LotR, actually.
Exactly. And it was bleedin' obvious early on that he'd
done so. I was thoroughly unimpressed and never bothered
with any of the sequels, though I think that I did finish
Sword.
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<erky...@eblong.com> wrote in
<news:i801ev$8uq$1...@reader1.panix.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
> Here, Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Tangentially, does any of the modern urban fantasy genre
>> have research into magic?
> Some. I just read, I think it was _Magic to the Bone_,
> where magical technology is being developed (and stolen,
> and litigated about, and regulared by the government) by
> new magic-tech companies after It Comes Back. It's the
> underlying plot thread.
It could have been any in Devon Monk's Allie Beckstrom
series, but that one is the first. (They're distinctly
above average.)
[...]
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<thr...@sheol.org> wrote in <news:12857...@sheol.org> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> How about Tinker (Wren Spencer's technomage)?
Definitely. Also Kelly McCullough's Ravirn (in _WebMage_,
_Cybermancy_, _CodeSpell_, _MythOS_, and _Spellcrash_).
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote in
<news:i7vsit$thh$2...@news.eternal-september.org> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> Is there any fantasy out there that actually shows people
> (or a lone, mad genius) designing and creating new
> spells?
Quite a few of Modesitt's characters do so.
Brian
Andrew Plotkin
It is not surprising that the books with *detailed* descriptions of
spell-creation often use computer-programming metaphors of magic.
(Usual rant, hackers as wizards as hackers.)
Unfortunately, I'm good enough at programming to get annoyed at even
small holes in the metaphor. I've never managed to get into any of
those books, or Rick Cook's books, or... I'm sure there are others
I've bounced off of.
--Z
William George Ferguson
(Michael Stemper) wrote:
>In article <i801ev$8uq$1...@reader1.panix.com>, Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> writes:
>>Here, Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> Tangentially, does any of the modern urban fantasy genre have research
>>> into magic?
>>
>>Some. I just read, I think it was _Magic to the Bone_, where magical
>>technology is being developed (and stolen, and litigated about, and
>>regulared by the government) by new magic-tech companies after It
>>Comes Back. It's the underlying plot thread.
>>
>>Pratchett has an occasional off-hand remark about research wizards
>>(and witches) in his fantasy novels. They're not protagonists, but
>>they occasionally whiz past the protagonists (at high velocity,
>>smoking).
>
>Which was how Luna Lovegood's mum bought it, right?
In front of Luna, when Luna was about 8.
Actually, the poster children for research magic in the Potterverse are the
Weasley twins. In the background of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th books, they are
constantly conducting experiements, tracking the results on test subjects,
and, basically, practicing the scientific method in developing the
inventory for the future Weasley's Wizarding Wheezes.
--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)
Brian M. Scott
<erky...@eblong.com> wrote in
<news:i814vs$qvt$3...@reader1.panix.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
> Here, Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:24:04 GMT, Wayne Throop
>> <thr...@sheol.org> wrote in <news:12857...@sheol.org> in
>> rec.arts.sf.written:
>> [...]
>>> How about Tinker (Wren Spencer's technomage)?
>> Definitely. Also Kelly McCullough's Ravirn (in _WebMage_,
>> _Cybermancy_, _CodeSpell_, _MythOS_, and _Spellcrash_).
> It is not surprising that the books with *detailed* descriptions of
> spell-creation often use computer-programming metaphors of magic.
> (Usual rant, hackers as wizards as hackers.)
> Unfortunately, I'm good enough at programming to get
> annoyed at even small holes in the metaphor.
No, you're good enough at programming to *notice* even small
holes in the metaphor. That's a necessary condition for
getting annoyed at them, but it's far from sufficient.
[...]
Brian
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:45:32 +0000 (UTC), mste...@walkabout.empros.com
>(Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
>>In article <i801ev$8uq$1...@reader1.panix.com>, Andrew Plotkin
><erky...@eblong.com> writes:
>>>Here, Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> Tangentially, does any of the modern urban fantasy genre have research
>>>> into magic?
>>>
>>>Some. I just read, I think it was _Magic to the Bone_, where magical
>>>technology is being developed (and stolen, and litigated about, and
>>>regulared by the government) by new magic-tech companies after It
>>>Comes Back. It's the underlying plot thread.
>>>
>>>Pratchett has an occasional off-hand remark about research wizards
>>>(and witches) in his fantasy novels. They're not protagonists, but
>>>they occasionally whiz past the protagonists (at high velocity,
>>>smoking).
>>
>>Which was how Luna Lovegood's mum bought it, right?
>
>In front of Luna, when Luna was about 8.
>
>Actually, the poster children for research magic in the Potterverse are the
>Weasley twins. In the background of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th books, they are
>constantly conducting experiements, tracking the results on test subjects,
>and, basically, practicing the scientific method in developing the
>inventory for the future Weasley's Wizarding Wheezes.
>
I enjoyed the Lyndon Hardy "magic as science" books, though I recall the
protags as rather dry and Vancian, so they may not be to all tastes.
Master of the Five Magics
Secret of the Sixth Magic
Riddle of the Seven Realms
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Doug Wickström
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>Is there any fantasy out there that actually shows people (or a
>lone, mad genius) designing and creating new spells?
I expect they are like the Alchemists Guild. How many members
blew themselves into the stratosphere before some guy invented
nitroglycerin in the winter time?
--
Doug Wickström
Doug Wickström
<kgae...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>
>Seasons that last no more than a couple weeks and it's really hard to
>predict which one comes next?
Visit Minnesota, where thunderstorms are sometimes followed by
weeks of sub-zero (Fahrenheit) temperatures.
The moose bites are bad, too.
--
Doug Wickström
Dorothy J Heydt
><mste...@walkabout.empros.com> writes
>>In article <w$RIkNnAp...@meden.invalid>, Stewart Robert Hinsley
>><{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>>In message <i7vsit$thh$2...@news.eternal-september.org>, Michael Stemper
>>><mste...@walkabout.empros.com> writes
>>>>In article <i7vm05$jof$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Kurt Busiek
>>>><ku...@busiek.com> writes:
>>>>>On 2010-09-28 16:25:26 -0700, Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com> said:
>>
>>>>>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>>>>>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic?
>>>>>
>>>>>essentially a Science Fiction trope?
>>>>>
>>>>>At least, there's gotta be an argument made along those lines.
>>>>
>>>>That is certainly a valid distinguishing characteristic of the
>>>>two genres. It also reminds me of a thought that I got from
>>>>_Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire_:
>>>>
>>>>The spell that was used to
>>>>re-incarnate Voldemort
>>>>seemed to have been designed for the occasion. Looking back, the spells
>>>>that were used to pass Deryni powers from King to heir were also
>>>>custom-designed.
>>>>
>>>>Is there any fantasy out there that actually shows people (or a
>>>>lone, mad genius) designing and creating new spells?
>>>
>>
>>That's a very good point, and also a worthwhile question. I'm not
>>sure how to address both the point and the question independently,
>>because they're very intimately tied together.
>>
>>If they're SF[1], they are (to me, duh!) SF because they treat magic as
>>something amenable to rigorous analytical study. In _Too Many Magicians_,
>>we have people presenting academic papers at conferences (with pre-prints
>>available, IIRC). We have people -- incapable of using magic themselves --
>>doing mathematical modeling of magical structures.
>
>There's another "engineering magic" story with the magic research more
>up front in the story - Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos". I don't
>recall whether Heinlein's "Magic, Inc." or Turtledove's "The Case of the
>Toxic Spell Dump" have any research on or off stage.
Haven't read Heinlein's story in a long time, so I can't say.
Turtledove has vague offhand mentions of magical things or
techniques that have recently been developed or improved or
perfected, which implies R&D facilities somewhere in the
background. Hey, particularly the guys who are trying to
discover how to develop synthetic souls for the apsychic.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
Dorothy J Heydt
Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <i7vsit$thh$2...@news.eternal-september.org>, Michael Stemper
><mste...@walkabout.empros.com> writes
>>In article <i7vm05$jof$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Kurt Busiek
>><ku...@busiek.com> writes:
>>>On 2010-09-28 16:25:26 -0700, Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com> said:
>>
>>>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>>>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic?
>>>
>>>Because fighting the Ancient Evil by building Something New is
>>>essentially a Science Fiction trope?
>>>
>>>At least, there's gotta be an argument made along those lines.
>>
>>That is certainly a valid distinguishing characteristic of the
>>two genres. It also reminds me of a thought that I got from
>>_Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire_:
>>
>>The spell that was used to
>>re-incarnate Voldemort
>></rot26>
>>seemed to have been designed for the occasion. Looking back, the spells
>>that were used to pass Deryni powers from King to heir were also
>>custom-designed.
>>
>>Is there any fantasy out there that actually shows people (or a
>>lone, mad genius) designing and creating new spells?
>Are the Lord Darcy whodunits fantasy?
Depends on how you slice it. You could call them alt-hist, in
fact they are, but with the additional feature that somewhere in
the fourteenth century (I think, will not go look it up at this
hour of the night) somebody discovered the basic laws of magic --
read, psionics, which made it science fiction so far as J. W.
Campbell Jr. was concerned.
Others, less optimistic, consider that ANY mention of psionic
powers makes a story fantasy. We could segue into that
ever-popular discussion of where do you draw the line between F
and SF, but let's not.
Dorothy J Heydt
Joel Olson <joel....@cox.net> wrote:
>"Cryptoengineer" <treif...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns9E026D24677ADt...@216.196.97.131...
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in news:2181257d-ad6f-
>> 467c-bde3-f...@k10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Sep 29, 12:25 am, Konrad Gaertner <kgaert...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> I just finished Brandon Sanderson's _The Way of Kings_, which has me
>>>> thinking a bit about some common tropes of epic fantasy (Sanderson
>>>> didn't really do anything new with this book).
>>>>
>>>> the main exception to this rule, and of course urban fantasy is happy
>>>> to test tasers against vampires. It's possible Sanderson will
>>>> subvert this later (apparently 1000 pages isn't enough to give anyone
>>>> a chance to try the new tech against the old enemies).
>>>
>>> The same reasons as why the armed forces have reservists. When the
>>> forces already mobilised are not enough to win the fight. The Ancient
>>> Magic is usually a ready-made super-weapon that Evil hasn't defended
>>> against, except when it has and you have to find the dungeon where
>>> Ancient Magic was put by Evil.
>>>
>>>> 2. Some characters claim the only way to establish lasting peace is
>>>> co-dependence through forced specialization. I first saw this in
>>>> Frank Herbert's _The Godmakers_ (not epic fantasy) where the example
>>>> given was having one village only make shovel handles, and their
>>>> neighbors only make shovel blades. In tWoK, we're told that the
>>>> previous time the main kingdom was united, peace was keep by having
>>>> the ruler of each province in charge of a different part of the
>>>> government: a Highprince of War, a Highprince of Justice, a
>>>> Highprince of Trade, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Am I the only one who finds this idea totally naive? If these
>>>> polities are so determined to fight each other, what makes you think
>>>> they'd obey laws that hurt their profits? It sounds like the author
>>>> is trying to have checks and balances without rule of law.
>>>
>>> Guilds and their trade secrets are historic fact. I think I've heard
>>> Venetian glass-makers mentioned. Basically, mess with Venice and
>>> you'll be sorry next time you want a window repaired.
>>
>> Nitpick: 'Venetian glass' doesn't usually include window glass, though
>> I'm sure some came out of the isle of Murano for local use. Rather, VG is
>> highly ornamental glass items.
>>
>> Venetian glassmakers were forbidden to leave the Serene Republic (though
>> their artistic works were an important export), so their influence on
>> window glass making elsewhere was minimal.
>>
>> Its the French glassmakers in Rouen that you don't want to piss off, or
>> you'll get no Crown Glass (which was their secret) for your windows.
>
>If by window glass you mean clear glass, it wasn't developed until way
>late in the day. All those stained glass windows - in those days, ALL glass
>was some color.
>
Pale green, by default, and blown into bubble-shape and then cut
off the blowing tube and flattened out while still warm. Then
rectangular windowpanes were cut out of the cooling sheet and
sold to e.g. Bess of Hardwick to enlighten the umpteen windows of
her house ("Hardwick Hall, more glass than wall"). The round blob in
the center was sold cheap: hence all those olde-tymie windows
you've seen in Robin Hood movies, lots of little glass bullseyes
set together to form a window that will at least let in light, if
not a view.
Dorothy J Heydt
>>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
>>> past several thousand years that might be useful?
>>
>> lately, or at least cautiously poking it with a stick. But it did
>> reign unquestioned for a few decades. As to why... I think the same
>> DID IT.
>>
>> Nothing new was invented in Middle Earth in thousands of years, at
>> least nothing new of any consequence, so that's how Tolkien imitators
>> (which is what fantasy pre-1990 pretty much was) have been doing it.
>
>And he got it from folklore and stories from societies heavily
>influenced by all the ruins of a more advanced civilization around them.
> (Roman ruins, BTW.)
>
>Yes, yes, I know that Europe didn't actually fall all that far
>technologically during the Middle Ages but the peasants still lived
>surrounded by ruins of things that were being built or even maintained
>anymore.
_Eald enta geweorc_, "the ancient works of giants."
Notice where Tolkien got the word "Ent."
Dorothy J Heydt
Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>
>I've been away from much of the genre to the point that I have little
>feel for what's even meant by "urban fantasy". Lord Darcy's stuff
>took place in cities ...
Not all of it. "The Ipswitch Phial" comes to mind offhand, which
takes place mostly in a small seaside village and the adjacent
beach.
Dorothy J Heydt
David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:41:24 +0000 (UTC), Remus Shepherd
><re...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
>>> past several thousand years that might be useful?
>>
>>
>> One is Tolkien. His Middle Earth was a world where most of the great
>>things had passed away, and what remained was destined to vanish by the
>>end of the LOTR. There's a powerful sense of loss through all of his
>>books. All of that probably comes from Tolkien's experiences in WWI,
>>which brutally disillusioned him about human beings and war.
>
>I'd say it comes from his Christianity, which portrays humanity as
>being in a constant state of decline with shortening life expectancies
>and miracles becoming fewer and farther between.
No no, Christianity adopted it and enlarged upon it, but it goes
back all the way into antiquity. Classicists would tell you
there was a Golden Age when everybody ate fruit and didn't fight,
and then a Silver Age which was not as good at its predecessor,
and then Ages of Bronze, Iron, and the present was frequently
described as the age of clay. (Dante gives a nice discussion on
this somewhere in the Commedia, but I can't pinpoint it right
now.)
Dorothy J Heydt
Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>(Sorry about the lack of new content in the previous post.)
>
>David Johnston wrote:
>>
>> >4. What is it with fantasy worlds having seasons of unpredictable
>> >lengths?
>>
>> My town has seasons of unpredictable length. Why wouldn't a fantasy
>> world?
>
>predict which one comes next?
I live in the Bay Area, parts of which change seasons (if you
define "seasons" as "recognizable periods of distinctive weather")
at random, whether daily or weekly or monthly, not without random
recurrence, too. We also have a sort of overarching Fimbulspring
which corresponds to other regions' late fall, winter, and spring
(whenever it's raining) and Fimbulsummer (the other six or eight
months of the year, when it doesn't rain at all, but sometimes
it's roasting hot and sometimes it chills to the bone).
Norm D. Plumber
>On Sep 28, 5:25 pm, Konrad Gaertner <kgaert...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
>> past several thousand years that might be useful?
>
>Some fantasy stories have magic working like science, where wizards
>apply basic laws of magic, try to think up new spells and see if they
>work, and thereby add to the knowledge of magic.
>
>In general, though, because magic doesn't seem to work *at all* on
>_this_ prime material plane, there's no opportunity to research it
>empirically.
By "on _this_ prime material plane" do you mean "in real life"?
In other words, are you saying that "magic doesn't seem to work *at
all* in real life"?
If so, what is your definition of "magic"?
--
What is trumps what should be, and what we expect, every time.
Wayne Throop
: If so, what is your definition of "magic"?
IMO, magic is a mix primarily of a) attributing intent to phenomena
and b) the concept that symbolism can have causal effect.
The major competing view (which I find quite unuseful and
not really a good match to what people enumerate as magical)
is that magic is the set of things you don't understand yet.
(is it really time for this discussion again?
maybe things are recurring faster, like birthdays)
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Norm D. Plumber
>: "Norm D. Plumber" <nom-de...@non.com>
>: If so, what is your definition of "magic"?
>
>IMO, magic is a mix primarily of a) attributing intent to phenomena
Please explain how that's different from my intending to move my
fingers and (voila!) their moving? Or is it simply a matter of
degree? Or did you have altogether something different in mind?
>and b) the concept that symbolism can have causal effect.
I might be unclear on exactly what you mean there too, do you mean the
principle behind homeopathic medicine, the "law of similars", as in
voodoo "symbolism"? (There's a special word for it... no, not
'magic', seems like it begins with an S but I can't recall it just
now.)
>The major competing view (which I find quite unuseful and
>not really a good match to what people enumerate as magical)
>is that magic is the set of things you don't understand yet.
As in, "sufficiently advanced technology"?
>(is it really time for this discussion again?
>maybe things are recurring faster, like birthdays)
They just discovered a planet with a 36.6 day year, and they say time
passes faster as one ages (which we have after all been doing), so I
guess it's possible that it's "time for this discussion again". Or
perhaps if one is interested in a given subject it's always time to
discuss it.
Anyway I mostly was trying to decipher the Savard-ese to understand
whether he was talking about R/L or whether I'd missed or forgotten
some particular fantasy-series context.
Of course if you'd like to discuss "magic" that's a subject that I'm
usually interested in, even though discussing it is generally a bad
idea. I might be able to come up with some other defintion of magic,
one never knows.
Bo Lindbergh
d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
> Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
> >4. What is it with fantasy worlds having seasons of unpredictable lengths?
>
> where they should be left alone to do their thing.
Which reminds me: I wonder if the resolution of LWE's
_Touched by the Gods_ had any astronomical consequences.
/Bo Lindbergh
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 19:15:53 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
> Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
> <news:i80hba$tkc$1...@news.eternal-september.org> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> [...]
>
>> Brooks almost completely INVERTED LotR, actually.
>
> Exactly. And it was bleedin' obvious early on that he'd
> done so.
Odd that virtually everyone else says he copied it point for point and
MISSES the inversion, which I think changes the book very drastically
from its inspiration. The later ones diverged even farther and
constructed what I find is a quite interesting magical universe.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Sep 28, 5:25 pm, Konrad Gaertner <kgaert...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
>>> past several thousand years that might be useful?
>> Some fantasy stories have magic working like science, where wizards
>> apply basic laws of magic, try to think up new spells and see if they
>> work, and thereby add to the knowledge of magic.
>>
>> In general, though, because magic doesn't seem to work *at all* on
>> _this_ prime material plane, there's no opportunity to research it
>> empirically.
>
> By "on _this_ prime material plane" do you mean "in real life"?
I'd presume so.
>
> In other words, are you saying that "magic doesn't seem to work *at
> all* in real life"?
I've never seen any evidence of it, nor heard reliable testimony from
anyone that had. So, yes, that would certainly be my position.
>
> If so, what is your definition of "magic"?
In the context of the discussion, the ability to affect the exterior
world in a manner that you want (i.e., get something to happen like
changing one object to another, making a person do something they
wouldn't otherwise have done, creating fire, etc.) through a mechanism
which is not otherwise known to people or science. I.e., you're not
using any sort of machine or tool, you're not talking other people into
doing it for you, you're not using your hands, etc.
In that context it would include both magic as understood in fantasy
novels and psionic powers as described in many SF novels. Either one
would be an ability for which there is no current practical or
theoretical explanation and would clearly be called a paranormal ability
if it were to be demonstrated.
Norm D. Plumber
>Norm D. Plumber wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sep 28, 5:25 pm, Konrad Gaertner <kgaert...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1. Why do the heroes always have to fight the Ancient Evil by first
>>>> rediscovering the Ancient Magic? Was there nothing invented in the
>>>> past several thousand years that might be useful?
>>> Some fantasy stories have magic working like science, where wizards
>>> apply basic laws of magic, try to think up new spells and see if they
>>> work, and thereby add to the knowledge of magic.
>>>
>>> In general, though, because magic doesn't seem to work *at all* on
>>> _this_ prime material plane, there's no opportunity to research it
>>> empirically.
>>
>> By "on _this_ prime material plane" do you mean "in real life"?
>
> I'd presume so.
Given the person I was asking... his meaning is not always obvious.
>> In other words, are you saying that "magic doesn't seem to work *at
>> all* in real life"?
>
> I've never seen any evidence of it, nor heard reliable testimony from
>anyone that had. So, yes, that would certainly be my position.
>
>>
>> If so, what is your definition of "magic"?
>
> In the context of the discussion, the ability to affect the exterior
>world in a manner that you want (i.e., get something to happen like
>changing one object to another, making a person do something they
>wouldn't otherwise have done, creating fire, etc.) through a mechanism
>which is not otherwise known to people or science. I.e., you're not
>using any sort of machine or tool, you're not talking other people into
>doing it for you, you're not using your hands, etc.
>
> In that context it would include both magic as understood in fantasy
>novels and psionic powers as described in many SF novels. Either one
>would be an ability for which there is no current practical or
>theoretical explanation and would clearly be called a paranormal ability
>if it were to be demonstrated.
So, if Penelope Bailey lifted her eyebrow because she knew that if she
did that, the town's generator to fail, you'd consider that instance
of prescience to be "magic"? But if I willed my right index finger to
depress a key on my computer, that would not be magic?
I have a definition for "magic" that is similar to but slightly
different from yours, but I'm not sure if I can put it in words just
now... perhaps a little later, if I can work sufficient magic to get
my generator working in the dark, I'll be able to express it, perhaps
not.
Michael Stemper
>Here, Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:
>> In article <slrnia767...@gatekeeper.vic.com>, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:
>> >Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>Tolkien did it like that? What ancient magic did the heroes set out to
>> >>find to defeat Sauron with?
>> >
>> >...This small round piece of ancient magic that fits on a finger, maybe?
>>
>> They weren't trying to find, or rediscover, that. If you look upstream,
>> you'll see the complaint is about people needing to rediscover old magic
>> to use against the enemy, not about people needing to destroy the enemy's
>> old magic.
>
>It's _Sword of Shannara_ that fits this pattern, actually. So if you
>thought that Brooks lifted *everything* from Tolkien... :)
Good point. Maybe the upstream comment about this being done by Tolkien
imitators would be better put as Brooks imitators.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Reunite Gondwanaland!
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Yes, if it was demonstrably that level of cause and effect -- that is,
she is CAUSING it to fail, not simply knowing the generator's going to
fail at that moment and raising her eyebrow. The "knowing it's going to
fail" could also be magic, if she knows that through no known mechanism
(i.e., she's never been near the generator, she knows nothing about how
generators work, yet she can reliably tell you when the generator and
other devices are going to fail).
But if I willed my right index finger to
> depress a key on my computer, that would not be magic?
Of course not. We know how that works; your brain sends a signal down
the wire that we call a nerve and causes the muscles to contract.
We do not yet know the details of the brain's operation but we have no
reason to believe it uses any mechanisms that we don't understand in
concept if not in detail (i.e., it's a bunch of cells working by
mechanisms we understand and performing operations we can understand
individually; the details of how that leads to thinking are not known
but we have no reason to believe there's anything nonphysical going on
there)
Cryptoengineer
news:L9Jtt...@kithrup.com:
Dorothy, you've just (sort of) described the 'Crown Glass' technique I
alluded to. It's actually somewhat more spectacular.
The glassblower indeed blows a bubble shape, but the bottom part is cut
off, and the remainder spun rapdily on the blowpipe. This causes the
remaining bubble part to flatten out into a disk, without touching
anything (which would compromise its qualities for window use). The glass
hardens in this disk, and pieces are cut out for windows. The boss where
it was attached to the blowpipe is indeed the 'bullseye' often seen in
old windows.
pt
Remus Shepherd
> Remus Shepherd wrote:
> > David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
> > > Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >Tolkien did it like that? What ancient magic did the heroes set out
> > > >to find to defeat Sauron with?
> >
> > > ...This small round piece of ancient magic that fits on a finger,
> > > maybe?
> >
> > of Earendil, the Palantirs, or just the help of the Ents? Hell, one
> > could make a case that the whole journey would have failed if not for
> > the Lembas bread.
> None of which "did the heroes set out to find to defeat Sauron with".
So you're not complaining about the need for ancient magic, you're
complaining about the need to seek it out?
That's a necessary part of the story structure, I would say. If you
already have the right kind of ancient magic laying around ready for use,
then it's not much of a problem if evil starts getting uppity.
I'm trying to think of a story where the hero had the ancient magic
needed to defeat evil available to him at the start, and he just delays
putting it into gear for a few hundred pages. Maybe the Arthurian tales
fit this mold?
... ...
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com>
New Webcomic: Genocide Man http://www.genocideman.com/
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
norrin
> Remus Shepherd wrote:
> > David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
> > > >Tolkien did it like that? What ancient magic did the heroes set out
> > > >to find to defeat Sauron with?
>
> > > ...This small round piece of ancient magic that fits on a finger,
> > > maybe?
>
> > Or the mithril armor, the elven cloaks, the dagger Sting, the Light
> > of Earendil, the Palantirs, or just the help of the Ents? Hell, one
> > could make a case that the whole journey would have failed if not for
> > the Lembas bread.
>
> None of which "did the heroes set out to find to defeat Sauron with".
>
Aragorn walked the Paths of the Dead in search of magic to defend
Gondor. He recruited an army of ghosts that was created by
ancient magic to wait until a prophecy was fulfilled.
Even then, the battle for Gondor might have been lost, if not for
a hobbit with a shiv. More ancient magic and prophecy, but it was
found by coincidence, not the result of a quest.
The One Ring, the Palantirs, the Ents, all coincidences, as you
already know.
Ancient Magic is more powerful because the natural resources used
to create it are more plentiful, and because of the will of the Valar.
David Johnston
>Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>If they're SF[1], they are (to me, duh!) SF because they treat magic as
>>>something amenable to rigorous analytical study. In _Too Many Magicians_,
>>>we have people presenting academic papers at conferences (with pre-prints
>>>available, IIRC). We have people -- incapable of using magic themselves --
>>>doing mathematical modeling of magical structures.
>>
>>There's another "engineering magic" story with the magic research more
>>up front in the story - Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos". I don't
>>recall whether Heinlein's "Magic, Inc." or Turtledove's "The Case of the
>>Toxic Spell Dump" have any research on or off stage.
>>
>>Tangentially, does any of the modern urban fantasy genre have research
>>into magic?
>
>Niven's early "Magic goes away" stories had a certain amount of
>engineering feel to them. The first of the Pournelle collaboration
>books in that series had less of it, and I didn't read the following
>book (books?)
>
>I've been away from much of the genre to the point that I have little
>feel for what's even meant by "urban fantasy". Lord Darcy's stuff
>took place in cities ...
But not our cities. "Urban fantasy" is the successor to horror
fiction, created when the old monsters stopped looking very horrible
to us. It's set in the real world or 20 minutes into the future. Lord
Darcy's world is too divergent from ours to fit into the genre.
David Johnston
<nom-de...@non.com> wrote:
>
>If so, what is your definition of "magic"?
Oh good. Norm intends to quibble about definitions.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
Yes, it did; wasn't that explicit in the novel?
Maybe it wasn't. It's been a long time since I looked at it.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm serializing novels at http://www.ethshar.com/TheFinalCalling01.html
and http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight1.html
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<re...@panix.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to think of a story where the hero had the ancient magic
>needed to defeat evil available to him at the start, and he just delays
>putting it into gear for a few hundred pages. Maybe the Arthurian tales
>fit this mold?
This is roughly the premise of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.
Brian M. Scott
Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
<news:i81pdm$gh1$1...@news.eternal-september.org> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 19:15:53 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
>> Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
>> <news:i80hba$tkc$1...@news.eternal-september.org> in
>> rec.arts.sf.written:
>> [...]
>>> Brooks almost completely INVERTED LotR, actually.
>> Exactly. And it was bleedin' obvious early on that he'd
>> done so.
> Odd that virtually everyone else says he copied it point
> for point and MISSES the inversion,
I've never understood the blank looks that I usually get
when I make that comment; it's nice to find that I'm not
*quite* alone.
> which I think changes the book very drastically from its
> inspiration. [...]
Brian
Dorothy J Heydt
I've already mentioned "the work of the third artist." The
picture becomes much clearer when one realizes that the second
artist (who imitated the first artist, and whom the third
artist[s] imitate[s]) just wasn't very good.
Dorothy J Heydt
Dorothy J Heydt
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 19:15:53 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
>> Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
>> <news:i80hba$tkc$1...@news.eternal-september.org> in
>> rec.arts.sf.written:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Brooks almost completely INVERTED LotR, actually.
>>
>> Exactly. And it was bleedin' obvious early on that he'd
>> done so.
>
> Odd that virtually everyone else says he copied it point for point and
>MISSES the inversion, which I think changes the book very drastically
>from its inspiration. The later ones diverged even farther and
>constructed what I find is a quite interesting magical universe.
Having heard about his stuff at an early point, I carefully never
read it. I do recall having been told that he *tried* to copy
LotR at every point.
"Not all that men desire do they obtain." --A. E. Housman
Anthony Nance
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:36:05 -0500, Konrad Gaertner
> <kgae...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Seasons that last no more than a couple weeks and it's really hard to
>>predict which one comes next?
>
> weeks of sub-zero (Fahrenheit) temperatures.
>
> The moose bites are bad, too.
Mynd you, moose bites Kan be pretti nasti...
Dorothy J Heydt
Joseph Nebus
>In article <0bc9a618jnroarnkr...@4ax.com>,
>David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
>>On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 02:59:39 -0600, "Norm D. Plumber"
>><nom-de...@non.com> wrote:
>>
>>>If so, what is your definition of "magic"?
>>
>>Oh good. Norm intends to quibble about definitions.
>Has nobody quoted Clarke's Third Law yet?
No; he wants to know just what is meant by ``Third'', first.
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wayne Throop
: Please explain how that's different from my intending to move my
: fingers and (voila!) their moving?
Simple. In magic, the movement due to intent would be primitive, not
decomposable to neural and muscular mechanisms. Similarly for causation
being symbolic; eg writing the glyph for "hot" makes something heat up,
or adjusting a magical watch makes time speed up or slow down, etc,
with no further underlying mechanism; it's primitive in the sense that,
say, emitting a photon is primtive in the usual mechanistic paradigm.
In science, the primitives are mechanisms.
In magic, the primitives are intent and symbolism.
Note that this relates to the other major "what is magic" answer;
before neural and muscular mechanisms were known, moving a finger was
indistinguishable from magic. Which is pretty much why I don't find it a
useful concept for magic; I druther magic didn't evaporate by definition
just because the beholder learned something. A better model is that
it either is or is not magic, and the beholder may learn something that
provokes a re-categorization.
And of course that relates it to the usual Clarke's Third Law deal,
that is, what makes things indistinguishable from magic is what you
know about the underlying mechanisms; if you know relatively little,
the "sufficiently advanced" needn't be very advanced at all.
: Anyway I mostly was trying to decipher the Savard-ese to understand
: whether he was talking about R/L or whether I'd missed or forgotten
: some particular fantasy-series context.
Ah. Well. Yes, deciphering Savard-ese is often quite the conundrum.
"Doesn't it drive you nuts having this supernatural
stuff happen around you?"
"There's nothing supernatural about it! I'm sure it
all works well within the laws of physics."
"*SNERK* Works within the laws..."
"Yes, it drives me crazy!"
--- http://wapsisquare.com/comic/workswithinthelaws/
"I'm neither a god nor a demon."
"What about all the scary-metaphysical-glowing-eyes-changing-into-
dangerous-monsters-and-bending-space-and-time stuff?"
"Just because someone is older than you and can pull a rabbit
out of a hat doesn't make them a god or a demon."
--- http://wapsisquare.com/comic/neithergodnordemon/
"What *is* this? Crystals? Feathers? Is that *incense*?!"
"Have I jarred your precious western newtonian view of science?
Just because you are incapable of seeing beyond the hidden vei--"
"Done!"
"Done? Done *what*?"
"Jeez, you had toad eyes slotted into your newt eye grid,
and *that* was throwing off your aetheric vibrations.
Amazing it worked at all, really."
--- http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20081205
"Then the one called Raltariki is really a demon?"
"Yes -- and no. If by 'demon' you mean a malefic, supernatural
creature, possessed of great powers, life span and the ability to
temporarily assume virtually any shape -- then the answer is no.
This is the generally accepted definition, but it is untrue in
one respect."
"Oh? And what may that be?"
"It is not a supernatural creature."
"But it is all those other things?"
"Yes."
"Then I fail to see what difference it makes [...]"
--- Tak of the Archives and Yama Dharma
from Zelazny's "Lord of Light"
Default User
news:8gid05...@mid.individual.net...
> Niven's early "Magic goes away" stories had a certain amount of
> engineering feel to them.
That's because magic was possible due to a physical substance. Even more so
along those lines were the Walter Jon Williams Metropolitan books, where
"plasm" is tapped, stored, piped, and metered.
Brian
--
Day 603 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project.
erilar
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> _Eald enta geweorc_, "the ancient works of giants."
>
> Notice where Tolkien got the word "Ent."
Having studied Old English before reading LOTR opens up dimensions
unknown to those who only know modern English 8-) Later I added other
old Germanic languages and later yet reread it. . .
I unwarily bought Sword of Shannara. I read the next one or two, loaned
me by a student. I never looked for more. . .
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist
Default User
news:i82f5h$22i$3...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...
A moose once bit my sister.
Brian (it's time some people were sacked)