How do publishers come up with cover art?
tr...@ibm.net
I'm not sure which group to post this letter to, but my question relates to SF art
rather than art in general.
What are your favourite book covers and SF artists? Know of any really
inappropriate covers?
I'm hoping a few editors/publishers will spare me a few lines to summarise
the processes involved in arranging artwork for SF books. I assume you commission
most artwork. How long do you give the artists to complete the painting? Do you
give them a guideline, a chapter, or the whole manuscript to read? Any info is most
welcome.
Thanks!
Trudi
tr...@ibm.net
Loki
In ashen ink, tr...@ibm.net inscribed:
: What are your favourite book covers and SF artists? Know of any really
: inappropriate covers?
Many, many, many.
One of my favorite covers is to Sean Stewart's _Resurrection Man_.
I also enjoy the black-'n-white covers that many of Iain Banks' uk
editions have. They're pretty nice. One of my least favorite things to
do with covers is that holo material that is on some of Feintuch's Hope
books.
: I'm hoping a few editors/publishers will spare me a few lines to summarise
: the processes involved in arranging artwork for SF books. I assume you commission
: most artwork. How long do you give the artists to complete the painting? Do you
: give them a guideline, a chapter, or the whole manuscript to read? Any info is most
: welcome.
This has come up a few times, but I don't recall all the details. The
author almost always has no control over the art, sadly. I don't know
the timeframe. The artist is usually relatively free to read as much or
as little of the book as they want (which usually turns into "as little").
Beyond that, there's not much I can tell you.
- Loki
--
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Geoffrey Wiseman | http://tdg.uoguelph.ca/~ontarion/users/geoff |
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
"Thank you, Mr. President, for my holiday, sir. I can't
really say that I wish you were here, but thank you all
the same, sir." - Love & Rockets
David Shmoo-Stanley
On 9 Jul 1996 tr...@ibm.net wrote:
> I'm not sure which group to post this letter to, but my question relates to SF art
> rather than art in general.
>
> What are your favourite book covers and SF artists? Know of any really
> inappropriate covers?
Good covers: Tex Murphy series by Aaron Conners, Stainless Steel Rat by
HArry HArrison, Heavy Weather by Bruce Sterling.
Uninspiring covers: All the covers for Lois McMaster Bujold's novels
except for Borders of Infinity and Mirror Dance
Also many novels depict starships as seen in the Our
PLanets series by National Geographic. The starships are identical on the
covers of Gateway (F. Pohl), To Save the Light (Bova and Austin), and one
of Bujold's novels.
Slarti
Emmet O'Brien
In article <4ruifm$2...@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca> gwis...@uoguelph.ca (Loki) writes:
>In ashen ink, tr...@ibm.net inscribed:
>: inappropriate covers?
The Josh Kirby covers for Pratchett's Discworld books are a pet peeve of
mine.. they're only really appropriate on a couple of the early gag-driven
ones.
>I also enjoy the black-'n-white covers that many of Iain Banks' uk
>editions have. They're pretty nice.
Oh yes. Classy. In the same vein, I think the most effective cover I've seen
in a long time is the current UK pb edition of _Foucault's Pendulum_. Just
a pendulum. Very simple, very striking.
>One of my least favorite things to
>do with covers is that holo material that is on some of Feintuch's Hope
>books.
That's not too bad. I do have certain pet peeves.. embossed lettering, titles
that go down the side of the front cover, little blobs of colour with "sequel
to X" or "author of Y" on it.. any text on the front other than author and
title IMO weakens the presentation, plenty of space on the back for blurbs..
For example, compare the Orbit and Tor editions of Jordan's Wheel of Time
books: same cover art, but the difference the title lettering makes to the
look of the book is quite dramatic. The Orbit editions just look classier.
Emmet
--
"Bother", said Pooh, as the Shadow ship came out of hyperspace above him.
Kate Nepveu
tr...@ibm.net wrote:
: What are your favourite book covers and SF artists? Know of any really
: inappropriate covers?
The early Discworld covers are horrible. I was embarrassed to have them
on my coffee table.
The Hyperion Cantos covers are a major peeve: the Shrike has *four*
arms, not two. Sheesh.
Don't even get me started on the Wheel of Time covers.
I liked the hardcover artwork of the Fionavar Tapestry a lot;
unfortunately it was changed for the paperback.
I like _Finder_'s cover.
And the covers for _The Gypsy_ and _Agyar_ are both very good. (Brust
seems to have good luck with covers. The only really bad one I can
think of is _To Reign in Hell._)
Those are the ones that stand out in my mind; lots of covers tend to be
generic (like the Ender series.)
--
Kate Nepveu kne...@lynx.neu.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------
When a woman tells the truth, she makes room for more truth
around her.
--Adrienne Rich
Scott Colvin Beeler
David Shmoo-Stanley <d_s...@alcor.concordia.ca> writes:
>On 9 Jul 1996 tr...@ibm.net wrote:
>
>> What are your favourite book covers and SF artists? Know of any really
>> inappropriate covers?
>
>Good covers: Tex Murphy series by Aaron Conners, Stainless Steel Rat by
>HArry HArrison, Heavy Weather by Bruce Sterling.
>
>Uninspiring covers: All the covers for Lois McMaster Bujold's novels
>except for Borders of Infinity and Mirror Dance
I really like the cover of Neil Stephenson's _Snow Crash_.
_Heavy Weather_ is good as well.
I really do NOT like the super-death-gatling-laser cover of
Maureen McHugh's _China Mountain Zhang_. A really neat book, but
I'm not sure if there is single mention of weapons in it. I know
that thing on the cover is supposed to be a cutter, or something,
but it's misleading.
Scott
Scott Promish
In article <DuC3u...@ebi.ac.uk>, eaob...@ebi.ac.uk says...
> That's not too bad. I do have certain pet peeves.. embossed lettering,
>titles that go down the side of the front cover, little blobs of colour with
>"sequel to X" or "author of Y" on it.. any text on the front other than
>author and title IMO weakens the presentation, plenty of space on the back
>for blurbs..
The thing I really hate *most* on covers is "cut-out" covers. Not only is the
"hidden" image (usually on horror paperbacks) usually really cheesy, but this
makes the cover really susceptible to ripping. Joel Rosenberg's latest is a
really good (bad?) example of this. The border on the bottom is way too thin.
Alice Bentley
The question was: what cover art did you really like/not like...
Kate Nepveu <kne...@lynx.dac.neu.edu> wrote:
>
> The early Discworld covers are horrible. I was embarrassed to have them
> on my coffee table.
I'm going to assume here that you mean the later American editions with
covers by Darryl Sweet, and not the British editions or early American
editions with covers by Josh Kirby. The styles are, shall we say, very
different.
The sales history on these print runs was interesting, and might add more
information to this discussion. If I have mis-remembers or
mis-interpreted anything here, I hope that someone from ROC or another
bookseller will spot it, but this is how it went for me.
Terry Pratchett is a Very Big Name in the UK, with most books making in
onto non-spec-fict bestseller lists. When Signet/ROC picked up the
paperback rights for the USA, they found the sales were good, but not
extraordinary. They were using the Josh Kirby cover art that had done so
well in the UK. After several books, they had Darryl Sweet do the cover
for the new release (I think it was REAPER MAN) and they saw a noticable
increase in sales. Through luck and skill Darryl Sweet had a previous
history of doing covers for very successful books, and I don't think it
was too much of a stretch for the publisher to conclude that the improved
sales were due to the cover art (as opposed to an increasing pool of
Pratchett readers).
While I personally prefer the Kirby covers, the cover art plus the blurbs
are the ONLY things a book has to hook new browsers in with, and many
people find the Sweet covers very attractive.
To input to the thread question, the process of designing a cover involves
not only choosing and commissioning an artist (and hoping their product
will match your needs) but making all the layout decisions. What typeface
to use, placement of graphics, blurbs, author's name, title, spine
treatment, bar code, etc. determines what the "look" of the book will be.
It's much trickier than just painting a pretty picture. Think of it like
trying to prepare an adolescent for entry into the business world. Scary.
-- Alice Bentley
Jo Walton
In article <4s43hv$g...@chaos.dac.neu.edu>
kne...@lynx.dac.neu.edu "Kate Nepveu" writes:
> And the covers for _The Gypsy_ and _Agyar_ are both very good. (Brust
> seems to have good luck with covers. The only really bad one I can
> think of is _To Reign in Hell._)
You should see the cover on the British omnibus edition of _Jhereg_/
_Teckla_/_Yendi_ (which is called _Taltos the Assassin_) - I described
it as "ghastly", but this was condemned as an understatement in favour of
"proactively hideous" by the friend I sent a copy to. (And the _Taltos_
one is *worse*). The expression on the purported Vlad's face is not to be
believed. And the feet on the alleged jhereg! Take it from me, Brust does
not always have good luck with covers.
--
Jo J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- - I kissed a kif at Kefk - -
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Graydon
Alice Bentley (st...@mcs.com) wrote:
: The question was: what cover art did you really like/not like...
[snip]
: While I personally prefer the Kirby covers, the cover art plus the blurbs
: are the ONLY things a book has to hook new browsers in with, and many
: people find the Sweet covers very attractive.
Only, I say, _only_ if the book is shrink wrapped.
*Lots* of people read a fair chunk of the thing before deciding to buy
it; the local independent bookstores have couches to encourage people to
sit down and do this. I'm fairly religious about reading page 118; I
certainly wouldn't have touched Pratchett on the basis of either set of
covers I've seen. (Josh Kirby apparently learned figure drawing by
drawing lead gaming figures. It fails to delight me.)
: To input to the thread question, the process of designing a cover involves
: not only choosing and commissioning an artist (and hoping their product
: will match your needs) but making all the layout decisions. What typeface
: to use, placement of graphics, blurbs, author's name, title, spine
: treatment, bar code, etc. determines what the "look" of the book will be.
: It's much trickier than just painting a pretty picture. Think of it like
: trying to prepare an adolescent for entry into the business world. Scary.
So how come Orbit absolutely blows everyone else away? The covers on
thier banks re-issues are *better*, and they were good before.
--
saun...@qlink.queensu.ca | Monete me si non anglice loquobar.
Christopher Davis
KN> == Kate Nepveu <kne...@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
KN> (Brust seems to have good luck with covers. The only really bad one
KN> I can think of is _To Reign in Hell._)
Yeah, but _Yendi_ and _Taltos_, while they look really good, both have
absolute A-number-one cover goof howlers.
This is supposed to be Vlad. You know, "Whiskers"?
Where's the facial hair, then?
That said, they still *look* neat. They're just *wrong*.
I still think the best, absolute most amazing, of the Brust covers are
_TPG_ and _FHYA_. Wow.
--
Christopher Davis <c...@kei.com> <URL: http://www.kei.com/homepages/ckd/ >
"I conclude that the CDA is unconstitutional and that the First Amendment
denies Congress the power to regulate protected speech on the Internet."
-- Judge Stewart Dalzell in _ACLU v. Reno_
Kate Nepveu
Alice Bentley (st...@mcs.com) wrote:
: The question was: what cover art did you really like/not like...
: Kate Nepveu <kne...@lynx.dac.neu.edu> wrote:
: >
: > The early Discworld covers are horrible. I was embarrassed to have them
: > on my coffee table.
: I'm going to assume here that you mean the later American editions with
: covers by Darryl Sweet, and not the British editions or early American
: editions with covers by Josh Kirby. The styles are, shall we say, very
: different.
I'm not really sure. I looked for a name, but didn't see one, and I
think the initials were hidden by the library stickers. But, for ex.,
_The Light Fantastic_ had all of the characters flying through the air
on the Luggage. It was garish, to say the least. I much prefer the
ones with the one image on a colored background that are coming out now.
Kate Nepveu
Christopher Davis (c...@loiosh.kei.com) wrote:
: KN> == Kate Nepveu <kne...@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
: KN> (Brust seems to have good luck with covers. The only really bad one
: KN> I can think of is _To Reign in Hell._)
: Yeah, but _Yendi_ and _Taltos_, while they look really good, both have
: absolute A-number-one cover goof howlers.
_Orca_ has stars on that pretty blue background. AFAIK, they didn't
head East in this book.
Christopher Davis
KN> == Kate Nepveu <kne...@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
KN> _Orca_ has stars on that pretty blue background. AFAIK, they didn't
KN> head East in this book.
Does the haze cover the oceans? I don't recall it ever saying one way or
the other. (I haven't re-read _Phoenix_ lately, and that's the only book
I can recall any major nautical portions in.)
If so, the House of the Orca never developed celestial navigation and
probably get lost fairly often (compass or no compass).
If not, I'll allow the poetic license to the _Orca_ cover, which, after
all, looks cool.
Alice Bentley
Graydon <saun...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
> Alice Bentley (st...@mcs.com) wrote:
> : To input to the thread question, the process of designing a cover
involves ... > making all the layout decisions.
>
> So how come Orbit absolutely blows everyone else away? The covers on
> thier banks re-issues are *better*, and they were good before.
Because they are good at their job? I'm not sure what your questions
means, or why re-issues would have any better (or worse) chance at a good
cover treatment than originals.
-- Alice Bentley
The Stars Our Destination bookstore
Check out our really lame web page at www.sfbooks.com to feel superior. It will get better, _really_, RSN!
Alice Bentley
Graydon <saun...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
> Alice Bentley (st...@mcs.com) wrote:
> : the cover art plus the blurbs
> : are the ONLY things a book has to hook new browsers in with, and many
> : people find the Sweet covers very attractive.
>
> Only, I say, _only_ if the book is shrink wrapped.
>
> *Lots* of people read a fair chunk of the thing before deciding to buy
> it; the local independent bookstores have couches to encourage people to
> sit down and do this.
But you had to pick it off the shelf first. While there are a few of us
that actually scan EVERY book, most of us have to choose what to look at
out of a vast assortment of options.
Interestingly enough, here in high-rent-district downtown Chicago, it's
the chains that have lots of comfy sitting areas, while many independants
have compromised on having more bookshelves, hence books.
Graydon
Alice Bentley (st...@mcs.com) wrote:: > : To input to the thread question, the process of designing a cover
: involves ... > making all the layout decisions.
: >
: > So how come Orbit absolutely blows everyone else away? The covers on
: > thier banks re-issues are *better*, and they were good before.
: Because they are good at their job? I'm not sure what your questions
: means, or why re-issues would have any better (or worse) chance at a good
: cover treatment than originals.
Well, presumably there is some sort of reasonably consistent process by
which covers are selected, whether chicken entrails, darts, or data
bases. If Orbit really does have consistently better covers - and I
think they do; reprints generally get very different covers - the switch
between Springett and whoever is doing the omnibus Fionovar cover, the
wildly stylisticly different covers of Julian May's Pliocene Exile covers
(all three sets, not counting the British covers), etc. - and the switch
is something that very rarely looks strongly directed; it looks like the
motive is to be *different*, rather than to be 'more appropriate'.
(Which makes sense if the point is to get the distrubutors to take the
things again, I suppose.) The Orbit new Banks covers have gone from
being landscape scenes appropriate to the book to these amazingly compact
visual hiku that are intensely appropriate to the book.
But what I want to know is what process Orbit is using and can it spread -
if it's some one person, can they be cloned? If it's an algorithm, can
the other publishers outright buy rights to it? etc.
And yeah, I'm dubious that distributors are necessarily in the
stranglehold position that they are presently in.
Graydon
Alice Bentley (st...@mcs.com) wrote:
: Graydon <saun...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
: > Alice Bentley (st...@mcs.com) wrote:
: > : are the ONLY things a book has to hook new browsers in with, and many
: > : people find the Sweet covers very attractive.
: >
: > Only, I say, _only_ if the book is shrink wrapped.
: >
: > *Lots* of people read a fair chunk of the thing before deciding to buy
: > it; the local independent bookstores have couches to encourage people to
: > sit down and do this.
: But you had to pick it off the shelf first. While there are a few of us
: that actually scan EVERY book, most of us have to choose what to look at
: out of a vast assortment of options.
So far as I know, most sf browsers browse on the basis of author
name. It doesn't take very many clues to detect that the covers are not
representative and the blurbs are (to a first approximation) useless.
(Although if Brust *doesn't* write the Vlad blurbs himself, I *really*
want to know who does and why they aren't writing lots more.)
: Interestingly enough, here in high-rent-district downtown Chicago, it's
: the chains that have lots of comfy sitting areas, while many independants
: have compromised on having more bookshelves, hence books.
No one has *ever* described downtown Kingston as 'high rent'. :] (And
the independents have been putting the chain stores under, gloat, gloat.)
Scott Promish
>Alice Bentley (st...@mcs.com) wrote:
> To input to the thread question, the process of designing a cover involves
> not only choosing and commissioning an artist (and hoping their product
> will match your needs) but making all the layout decisions. What typeface
> to use, placement of graphics, blurbs, author's name, title, spine
> treatment, bar code, etc. determines what the "look" of the book will be.
> It's much trickier than just painting a pretty picture. Think of it like
> trying to prepare an adolescent for entry into the business world. Scary.
My favourite use of bar code placement is on Alan Dean Foster's GLORY LANE.
The cover features a plethora of aliens wandering through an interplanetary
commerce center and a bunch on the back appear to be carrying the UPC box.
The cover art was by Jim Gurney.
Loki
In ashen ink, Alice Bentley (st...@mcs.com) inscribed:
: But you had to pick it off the shelf first. While there are a few of us
: that actually scan EVERY book, most of us have to choose what to look at
: out of a vast assortment of options.
I suspect many of the r.a.sf.w-ites operate largely on recommendation. I
tend to, myself. Which is not to say that my eye can't be caught, but
it's uncommon and isn't generally a source of sales. (Sean Stewart
caught my eye because of t he beautiful _Resurrection Man_ cover and the
rather high praise from rather cool places in its blurbs, but that's one
of the very few.)
When I -am- scanning at random, most books only get a chance to catch me
with their spines, which just about never happens. :)
: Interestingly enough, here in high-rent-district downtown Chicago, it's
: the chains that have lots of comfy sitting areas, while many independants
: have compromised on having more bookshelves, hence books.
Imagine that!
- Loki
--
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Geoffrey Wiseman | http://tdg.uoguelph.ca/~ontarion/users/geoff |
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see
one chance out between two worlds, Fire walk with me."
Gary Farber
: : But you had to pick it off the shelf first. While there are a few of us
: : that actually scan EVERY book, most of us have to choose what to look at
: : out of a vast assortment of options.
: So far as I know, most sf browsers browse on the basis of author
: name.
Not really. Not for purposes of this discussion. You are, naturally,
judging "most sf browsers" by yourself and people like yourself (and like
me, and the vast majority of posters to this newsgroup, and almost all
active fans). But this ignores the significant percentage of sales to
people quickly stopping by a newsrack at a mass-market Point Of Purchase
who grab up "a piece of sci-fi."
An amazing nummber of people do not, in fact, notice writers or their
names. At all. Really.
And the cover, again, is as much or more a sales tool for the sales rep to
show to others in the distribution chain for a few seconds while urging
them to place an order (or just passing by); no book is available for
scanning at this time; just a cover and a sales sheet with a few dozen
words ("$100,000 Ad Campaign! Co-op Advertising!").
[. . . .]
--
-- Gary Farber gfa...@panix.com
Copyright (c) 1996 Brooklyn, NY, USA
Alice Bentley
Graydon (saun...@qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
: Alice Bentley (st...@mcs.com) wrote:
: : But you had to pick it off the shelf first. While there are a few of us
: : that actually scan EVERY book, most of us have to choose what to look at
: : out of a vast assortment of options.
: So far as I know, most sf browsers browse on the basis of author
: name.
That's not browsing, that's shopping. Browsing is what happens AFTER you
pick up the books you were particularly looking for. You might be a
little more directed because you're following up recommendations you've
read, but mostly you just scan around. (I mean "you" in the most general
sence, as in "you-all".)
and Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> replyed to Graydon:
> Not really. Not for purposes of this discussion. You are, naturally,
> judging "most sf browsers" by yourself and people like yourself (and like
> me, and the vast majority of posters to this newsgroup, and almost all
> active fans). But this ignores the significant percentage of sales to
> people quickly stopping by a newsrack at a mass-market Point Of Purchase
> who grab up "a piece of sci-fi."
>
> An amazing nummber of people do not, in fact, notice writers or their
> names. At all. Really.
>
> And the cover, again, is as much or more a sales tool for the sales rep to
> show to others in the distribution chain for a few seconds while urging
> them to place an order.
I think it's important to emphasize that, much though we (the readers)
love and support SF, the sucess of a title rests primarily on it's initial
orders. Sell-through is important later, but they can't sell if they are
not there in the first place. The cover is the major tool that a buyer
has to determine initial order numbers, and even Anne Rice would get lower
initials for a book with a sucky cover.
Kind of makes the job of Art Director a little scary, huh?
Peter H. Granzeau
On 14 Jul 1996 12:16:53 GMT, saun...@qlink.queensu.ca (Graydon)
wrote:
>(Although if Brust *doesn't* write the Vlad blurbs himself, I *really*
>want to know who does and why they aren't writing lots more.)
The question of Brust "Vlad" covers is moot. All of them thus far
came from Ace. _Orca_ was the last of his novels they will publish.
Celia Malm
>Alice Bentley (st...@mcs.com) wrote:
>: The question was: what cover art did you really like/not like...
>: Kate Nepveu <kne...@lynx.dac.neu.edu> wrote:
>: >
>: > The early Discworld covers are horrible. I was embarrassed to have them
>: > on my coffee table.
>: I'm going to assume here that you mean the later American editions with
>: covers by Darryl Sweet, and not the British editions or early American
>: editions with covers by Josh Kirby. The styles are, shall we say, very
>: different.
Frankly, I've never liked ANY of Darryl K. Sweet's artwork. The people
always look as if they have some sort of skin disease.
As far as appropriate covers go, I'd say to a certain degree this
depends on the target audience. If you're not part of the "target
audience", even if you like the book, chances are you won't like the
cover. A case in point: Most of Terry Brooks' later covers have a
"Monsters R Us" feel. This is because a major part of the target
audience for these books is 14-year-old r-p-gamers. I love Brooks'
books, but since I'm not a part of the target audience, most of the
hardcover jackets from his books have ended up rapidly in my trash
can. <The Druid of Shannara> in fact is the only one still wearing its
dustjacket.
And sometimes changing the cover art of reprints is a bad thing. Take
Connie Willis' <Doomsday Book>. The cover that originally got my
attention was three sections--the side sections showing a modern city,
the center section showing a girl in medieval garb in the woods. If
not for this eye-grabbing cover I would probably have never read one
of the best SF books I know of. The latest reprint covers are so blase
that one is tempted to ask: does this belong in the mainstream
section? And actually, I suppose, that is probably who they are trying
to target. Unfortunate--since the other cover actually showed what the
book was about.
Cee
Graydon
Peter H. Granzeau (gran...@widomaker.com) wrote:
: On 14 Jul 1996 12:16:53 GMT, saun...@qlink.queensu.ca (Graydon)
I realize that Brust and Ace have had a parting of the ways; this doesn't
prevent the writer of blurbs (if it isn't Brust) from writing more.
I think 'In which Vlad and his jhereg discover how the love of a good
woman can turn a cold-blooded killer into a _real_ mean s.o.b.' sounds a
lot like Brust, but I could be wrong, and I still want to know why there
aren't more blurbs like that.
Avram Grumer
In article <4sesgk$2...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
khi...@ophelia.ucs.indiana.edu wrote:
>I mean, really. What do we have so far? Loiosh. Loiosh and Vlad.
>Loiosh again. Loiosh on Vlad's arm. Loiosh and his mate. Loiosh on
>fire. Loiosh and some stars.
>
>I wonder what pose Loiosh will be in on the cover of _Dragon_?
Spam, spam, spam, spam, Loiosh, Vlad, and spam.
--
Avram Grumer Home: av...@interport.net
http://www.users.interport.net/~avram Work: agr...@crossover.com
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish,
and you can sell him equipment.
Gary Farber
Alice Bentley (st...@mcs.com) wrote:
<clipped>
: I think it's important to emphasize that, much though we (the readers)
: love and support SF, the sucess of a title rests primarily on it's initial
: orders. Sell-through is important later, but they can't sell if they are
: not there in the first place. The cover is the major tool that a buyer
: has to determine initial order numbers, and even Anne Rice would get lower
: initials for a book with a sucky cover.
: Kind of makes the job of Art Director a little scary, huh?
It's worse than that. With art meetings, responsibility may be spread
around. So when one goes over sell-through in reprint meetings, pointing
the finger of blame at who is responsible for a book failing can be as
political as all get-out. And you might want to note who is taking the
minutes for the meetings. . . .
And people wonder why publishing is such a high-turnover business.
Gary Farber
Graydon (saun...@qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
<snip>
: Well, presumably there is some sort of reasonably consistent process by
: bases.
Art meetings, usually, which are generally dominated by the preferences of
the Art Director, and to a lesser extent, the editor, who must deal with
the preferences of the Promo and Publicity people, and bow to anyone from
the publisher's office, and generally deal with all the usual daily office
politics, which change from day to day and book to book.
: If Orbit really does have consistently better covers - and I
: think they do; reprints generally get very different covers - the switch
: between Springett and whoever is doing the omnibus Fionovar cover, the
: wildly stylisticly different covers of Julian May's Pliocene Exile covers
: (all three sets, not counting the British covers), etc. - and the switch
: is something that very rarely looks strongly directed; it looks like the
: motive is to be *different*, rather than to be 'more appropriate'.
: (Which makes sense if the point is to get the distrubutors to take the
: things again, I suppose.)
Yeah. I expect people will use "appropriate" in different ways in this
context. What's most appropriate is presumably to sell as many copies of
the book, not create a nice independent work of art for its own sake.
: The Orbit new Banks covers have gone from
: being landscape scenes appropriate to the book to these amazingly compact
: visual hiku that are intensely appropriate to the book.
: But what I want to know is what process Orbit is using and can it spread -
: if it's some one person, can they be cloned?
Commercial art moves in fads; when something is deemed to "work," most
others will leap on the bandwagon to try it. Then everyone gets sick of
it until the next fad comes along.
The most significant factor here is that the British market and the North
American market are grossly different: the Brit market is tiny compared
to NA, and so they can afford to be much more upscale. Good for them,
but don't expect the same art that works for them to work in supermarkets
in NA; they're different audiences. You may be skeptical of this, but
publishers test this monthly.
Gary Farber
Loki (gwis...@uoguelph.ca) wrote:
: In ashen ink, tr...@ibm.net inscribed:
<snip>
: : I'm hoping a few editors/publishers will spare me a few lines to summarise
: : the processes involved in arranging artwork for SF books. I assume you commission
: : most artwork.
A few smaller houses such as Baen have the editor deal directly with the
artist. More typically, the art director (head of the Art Department) or
an assistant does it, on the basis of an "Art Meeting" which will
generally set the overall marketing package and will be attended by
representatives from various departments including the editor, someone
from Art, someone from Promotion, someone from Publicity, someone from
the publisher's office, possibly a supervising editor (editor-in-chief,
ass't Editorial Director, there are many flavors), and so on. The art
department then deals entirely with the artist, and the editor deals
with the art department. This all is variable from publisher to
publisher, week to week, and book to book.
: : How long do you give the artists to complete the painting?
Depends. Just as or more relevant is how fast the artist is and how many
other committments the artist has in that time period. So the answer
isn't terribly meaningful beyond "enough" or "not enough." Generaly the
former. Generally a few weeks. But an artist who only has one or two
commissions at a time is unlikely to be able to continue as a
professional working cover artist.
: : Do you
: : give them a guideline, a chapter, or the whole manuscript to read? Any info is most
: : welcome.
Again, depends. More generally, a short description and some sample
pages, but it could be the whole manuscript, or it could be an earlier
version of the manuscript.
: This has come up a few times, but I don't recall all the details. The
: author almost always has no control over the art, sadly. I don't know
: the timeframe. The artist is usually relatively free to read as much or
: as little of the book as they want (which usually turns into "as little").
Only sometimes.
Karl Hiller
Kate Nepveu (kne...@lynx.dac.neu.edu) wrote:
:
: : KN> (Brust seems to have good luck with covers. The only really bad one
: : KN> I can think of is _To Reign in Hell._)
Wellll... They're very well-executed, but...
A LITTLE VARIETY WOULD BE NICE!
I mean, really. What do we have so far? Loiosh. Loiosh and Vlad.
Loiosh again. Loiosh on Vlad's arm. Loiosh and his mate. Loiosh on
fire. Loiosh and some stars.
I wonder what pose Loiosh will be in on the cover of _Dragon_?
Karl
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
visit The Courts of Chaos: |
http://nickel.ucs.indiana.edu/ |
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Paul Connelly
In article <4saofl$5...@knot.queensu.ca>, saun...@qlink.queensu.ca
(Graydon) wrote:
> So far as I know, most sf browsers browse on the basis of author
> name. It doesn't take very many clues to detect that the covers are not
> representative and the blurbs are (to a first approximation) useless.
I think where covers make you pick up the book and check it (and
the blurbs) out is where it's an author you haven't read before.
This has been especially true for me with series with the same
cover artists (like Leo and Diane Dillon for Ace in the '60s/'70s
...without them i might never have read R. A. Lafferty's totally
wonderful _Fourth Mansions_). Blurbs have their own level of
credibility...you get to identify authors who praise horrible
works by newer writers pretty fast, which turns them into a
negative incentive to buy a book they recommend.
- paul
--
Ut ibi arduum cursum angelorum perficiam
Gary Farber
Emmet O'Brien (eaob...@ebi.ac.uk) wrote:
<snip>
: That's not too bad. I do have certain pet peeves.. embossed lettering, titles
: that go down the side of the front cover, little blobs of colour with "sequel
: to X" or "author of Y" on it.. any text on the front other than author and
: title IMO weakens the presentation, plenty of space on the back for blurbs..
Where they can only be read by Kryptonians. Who don't buy many books in
the mass market. Is it really worth fulfilling fans' aesthetic
preferences and losing a quarter of the sales? Hey, if that's what you
want. . . .
Graydon
Gary Farber (gfa...@panix.com) wrote:
: Graydon (saun...@qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
: <snip>
: : Well, presumably there is some sort of reasonably consistent process by
: : which covers are selected, whether chicken entrails, darts, or data
: : bases.
: Art meetings, usually, which are generally dominated by the preferences of
: the Art Director, and to a lesser extent, the editor, who must deal with
: the preferences of the Promo and Publicity people, and bow to anyone from
: the publisher's office, and generally deal with all the usual daily office
: politics, which change from day to day and book to book.
Ah, ok, *not* reasonably consistent, unless there is a fair bit of
empiricism lurking in there somewhere.
: Yeah. I expect people will use "appropriate" in different ways in this
: context. What's most appropriate is presumably to sell as many copies of
: the book, not create a nice independent work of art for its own sake.
I am using 'approriate' to mean 'sells this book most readily to people
who will acquire a predisposition to purchase the next book on the basis
of this one' in this context. It's very clear that people have favoured
authors and preferences, and that this is a large aspect of the commercial
basis for the success of the interminable series. I do wonder that it's
not pushed on the basis of author, as well as on the basis of story, but
it certainly does not appear to be until the author is a Name for some
time.
[Why are Orbit covers so good?]
: The most significant factor here is that the British market and the North
: American market are grossly different: the Brit market is tiny compared
: to NA, and so they can afford to be much more upscale. Good for them,
: but don't expect the same art that works for them to work in supermarkets
: in NA; they're different audiences. You may be skeptical of this, but
: publishers test this monthly.
I don't doubt this at all.
However, I get told that the supermarket/drugstore/airport rack market is
completely indifferent to what the book *is*, it's '2 from genre A, 2 from
genre B'; I can't imagine that there is any predictable basis for what
cover art sells those. (Or that it matters; all romance novels have the
*same* cover, effectively, within a given line.) Large chain bookstores
appear to be similar; they tend to have a central buying policy, driven by
considerations that do not focus on getting repeat customers.
Ok, well, marketting is a process of creating/identifying an insecurity
and attempting to assert that your product will address that insecurity;
I'd argue that there are two pre-existing insecurities that apply to sf
books, 'I have no sf to read' and 'I have no *good* sf to read, save
me from Dentist's Office Hell', and that these should be addressed
differently. (If there is any money to be made from the 'I have nothing
good to read' market, anyway; if there isn't, it makes sense to ignore
it, since it's pretty good at setting up its own selection mechanisms.)
Which makes me wonder if it wouldn't be worthwhile for an sf publisher to
produce a single cover for 'fantasy', a single cover for 'science fiction'
(or maybe three in each, or whatever), put the author's name in a high
legibility typeface on the top third, and push their imprint as a brand
name for that market, thus addressing the 'I have no sf to read' market
with the minimum of pain and effort. They already do something very much
like this for spines, although not completely consistently - the logos are
getting steadily larger and higher contrast, and seem to have settled on
'bottom of spine' rather than 'top'.
Hopefully reserving a fraction of the print run, giving it good covers
where warranted, and selling direct to speciality bookstores, where there
*is* an affect from cover appropriateness, would be a worthwhile way to
address the 'I have no good sf to read' market.
Christopher Davis
GF> == Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com>
DC> == Del Cotter <d...@branta.demon.co.uk>
GF> The most significant factor here is that the British market and the
GF> North American market are grossly different: the Brit market is tiny
GF> compared to NA, and so they can afford to be much more upscale.
DC> How does that work? Mass market is mass market, surely, regardless
DC> of the quantity of "masses"?
Yes and no. Quantitative changes, at a large enough change, can become
qualititative changes.
The US "mass-market" distribution system for paperbacks, which is
basically the bastard sibling of the magazine distribution system, is
too large to get any kind of "individual" nature through the system. This
results in book buyers buying huge quantities of books, based on things
like the cover art and the perceived genre ratios of racks in
supermarkets. ("Yeah, I need to fill 5 slots of romance, 5 slots of
horror, 3 sci-fi...") The buyers need not know anything about the books,
the authors, or the genres, and apparently usually don't.
In the US, a *lot* of books are apparently sold that way. In the UK?
Dunno, but it sure looked like actual *book* stores were doing most of the
book selling. (Then again, I spent more time in WH Smiths than I did in
Tescos, so my observations may not be completely valid.)
Del Cotter
On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, in rec.arts.sf.written
Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> wrote
>The most significant factor here is that the British market and the North
>American market are grossly different: the Brit market is tiny compared
>to NA, and so they can afford to be much more upscale.
How does that work? Mass market is mass market, surely, regardless of
the quantity of "masses"?
--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk
How many 'f's in 'justice'?
tr...@ibm.net
In <4sh8en$e...@panix2.panix.com>, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) writes:
>: Kind of makes the job of Art Director a little scary, huh?
>
>It's worse than that. With art meetings, responsibility may be spread
>around. So when one goes over sell-through in reprint meetings, pointing
>the finger of blame at who is responsible for a book failing can be as
>political as all get-out. And you might want to note who is taking the
>minutes for the meetings. . . .
>
>And people wonder why publishing is such a high-turnover business.
Yep. I used to work for a travel book publishing company as a designer. I dreaded
the cover selection meetings, when my job title effectively changed to Projector
Operator. I would watch on in amazement as people I knew as reasonable, dignified
human beings would turn into something quite scary. Brought out their dark side.
Trudi
Christopher Davis
DC> == Del Cotter <d...@branta.demon.co.uk>
DC> OK, I gotcha. In any sufficiently small mass market, the number of
DC> books competing for a viable share is low enough that company buyers
DC> can exercise genuine discrimination by actually *reading* the things?
DC> So for "can afford" I should read "can spare the attention"?
DC> My question is, do buyers in the UK really do this?
I don't know, but as I said, the "mass market" as it exists in the US is
really a different creature than in anywhere else. Since it's my
impression (possibly inaccurate) that a higher percentage of books in the
UK are sold by actual bookstores, that right there would tend to skew the
market differently (since the buyers for the middlemen are actually part
of the book industry, not the magazine distribution industry).
tr...@ibm.net
In <4sh7ee$d...@panix2.panix.com>, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) writes:
>: : How long do you give the artists to complete the painting?
>
>Depends. Just as or more relevant is how fast the artist is and how many
>other committments the artist has in that time period. So the answer
>isn't terribly meaningful beyond "enough" or "not enough." Generaly the
>former. Generally a few weeks. But an artist who only has one or two
>commissions at a time is unlikely to be able to continue as a
>professional working cover artist.
>
>: Do you give them a guideline, a chapter, or the whole manuscript to read?
>
>pages, but it could be the whole manuscript, or it could be an earlier
>version of the manuscript.
>
up to a year in advance, though he doesn't read it until he's ready to start on the
painting. He reads it at least twice, first for the general feel of the book, then a
second time to take notes. Obviously, he is an established author and has been
around for years, so this may be an exception to the rule.
Trudi
Del Cotter
On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, in rec.arts.sf.written
Christopher Davis <c...@loiosh.kei.com> wrote
> GF> The most significant factor here is that the British market and the
> GF> North American market are grossly different: the Brit market is tiny
> GF> compared to NA, and so they can afford to be much more upscale.
>
> DC> How does that work? Mass market is mass market, surely, regardless
> DC> of the quantity of "masses"?
>
>Yes and no. Quantitative changes, at a large enough change, can become
>qualititative changes.
<explanation snipped>
OK, I gotcha. In any sufficiently small mass market, the number of
books competing for a viable share is low enough that company buyers can
exercise genuine discrimination by actually *reading* the things? So
for "can afford" I should read "can spare the attention"?
My question is, do buyers in the UK really do this?
--
Jo Walton
In article <4siqj7$8...@knot.queensu.ca>
saun...@qlink.queensu.ca "Graydon" writes:
> Which makes me wonder if it wouldn't be worthwhile for an sf publisher to
> produce a single cover for 'fantasy', a single cover for 'science fiction'
> (or maybe three in each, or whatever), put the author's name in a high
> legibility typeface on the top third, and push their imprint as a brand
> name for that market, thus addressing the 'I have no sf to read' market
> with the minimum of pain and effort. They already do something very much
> like this for spines, although not completely consistently - the logos are
> getting steadily larger and higher contrast, and seem to have settled on
> 'bottom of spine' rather than 'top'.
Gollancz used to do this. Their hardback SF all had yellow covers. One could
spot them among the other books and leap on them with cries of enthusiasm.
(This was when I was young and indiscriminating and definitely in the "I
have no SF to read" market)
Penguin also did this with their orange covers. I think it was foolish
of these companies to abandon this effective brand identification strategy
and make their books look just like everyone else's.
Lisa Goldstein's _Tourists_ (Orb edition) has an excellent cover. It is the
only good cover I've seen for years, and worth noting again. I wish I could
say that the cover had influenced my purchase, but I bought it from an
online bookstore and therefore had paid for it before seeing it. :)
--
Jo J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- - I kissed a kif at Kefk - -
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
A.Jante
What is the usual medium for the original cover artwork? I mean
are they oil on canvas, watercolor, acrylic etc?
Burningly curious,
Alyn
Loki
Speaking of covers, while rereading _the Lure of the Basilisk_ (Second
printing, Sweet cover, in case there are different ones), I took a look
at the cover.
Standing atop a castle wall is someone I must assume is Shang, because
that's the only scene that matches the cover. But reading the
description, the character on the front is so un-Shang that it makes
little sense.
And he's wearing a crown, and looks like he's wearing yellow robes ... is
it the Forgotten King, recently having repaired his rags, and suddenly
appearing atop castle walls? Does the forgotten king have a beard? (I
don't recall one...)
Ah well.
Covers are amusing.
- Loki
--
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Geoffrey Wiseman | http://tdg.uoguelph.ca/~ontarion/users/geoff |
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
"Oh, it's unbearable, isn't it? The suffering of strangers,
the agony of friends. There is a secret song at the center of
the world, Joey, and its sound is like razors through flesh."
Tony Goldstein
khi...@indiana.edu (Karl Hiller) wrote:
>Kate Nepveu (kne...@lynx.dac.neu.edu) wrote:
>:
>: : KN> (Brust seems to have good luck with covers. The only really bad one
>: : KN> I can think of is _To Reign in Hell._)
So how come they can't manage to draw Vlad with a mustache?
Lawrence Watt-Evans
In article <31EE7D...@sbphrd.com>, alyn_n...@sbphrd.com says...
>
>What is the usual medium for the original cover artwork? I mean
>are they oil on canvas, watercolor, acrylic etc?
Varies. They're usually on board rather than canvas so they can be shipped
and handled more easily, but beyond that, whatever works. Acrylic is
probably most common, but of the five cover paintings hanging on my walls I
believe three are acrylics and two are oils (including the Mattingly, which
is weird -- he only ever did one or two oils professionally). Margaret
Brundage did her WEIRD TALES covers in pastels, and as a result most of them
haven't survived.
Watercolors are also kind of delicate for this sort of use; cover paintings
get shipped hither and yon and thrown around pretty casually by the
production people.
--
For information on Lawrence Watt-Evans, finger -l lawr...@clark.net
or see The Misenchanted Page at http://www.greyware.com/authors/LWE/
The Horror Writers Association Page is at http://www.horror.org/HWA/
Robert Sneddon
> What is the usual medium for the original cover artwork? I mean
> are they oil on canvas, watercolor, acrylic etc?
>
> Burningly curious,
> Alyn
>
Josh Kirby, who does the excellent DiscWorld covers for Gollancz/
Transworld, said at a con recently he worked exclusivelyy in oils.
Acrylics dried too fast, and he couldn't work them on the board
for long enough.
--
"We've got a kilo of grass, a case of Scotch and a crate full of Uzis -
"Let's go to Disneyworld !!!!!"
Robert (nojay) Sneddon
tr...@ibm.net
In <31EE7D...@sbphrd.com>, "A.Jante" <alyn_n...@sbphrd.com> writes:
>What is the usual medium for the original cover artwork? I mean
>are they oil on canvas, watercolor, acrylic etc?
>
>Burningly curious,
>Alyn
I know from a book I have on Tim Hildebrant that he uses acrylics on masonite
most of the time. Michael Wheelan uses acrylics on a variety of surfaces, and
an airbrush to achieve graduation on the backgrounds. I'd love to know of any
other techniques used by fantasy artists, if anyone has any info...
trudi
Del Cotter
On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, in rec.arts.sf.written
Christopher Davis <c...@loiosh.kei.com> wrote
> DC> OK, I gotcha. In any sufficiently small mass market, the number of
> DC> books competing for a viable share is low enough that company buyers
> DC> can exercise genuine discrimination by actually *reading* the things?
> DC> So for "can afford" I should read "can spare the attention"?
>
> DC> My question is, do buyers in the UK really do this?
>
>I don't know, but as I said, the "mass market" as it exists in the US is
>really a different creature than in anywhere else.
But is it due, as Gary said, to the relative size of the two markets?
And anyway, what sizes are we talking about here? I'd estimate the size
of the UK market to be on the close order of 20% that of the US market:
small, but hardly 'tiny'. Is this a good guess, and if so, is a 1:5
market size ratio sufficient to explain the difference in quality?
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <837734...@ibfs.demon.co.uk>,
Robert Sneddon <no...@ibfs.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Josh Kirby, who does the excellent DiscWorld covers for Gollancz/
>Transworld, said at a con recently he worked exclusivelyy in oils.
>Acrylics dried too fast, and he couldn't work them on the board
>for long enough.
Afaik, there's stuff you can buy (retardant?) to mix into acrylics
to make them dry more slowly. On the other hand, oils still have
richer colors.
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
12/95 updated calligraphic button catalogue available by email
Stevens R. Miller
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> In article <4sl1ch$j...@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca>, gwis...@uoguelph.ca says...
> >Speaking of covers, while rereading _the Lure of the Basilisk_
> There are two U.S. covers, plus different ones in Britain, Spain, Italy, and
> Japan. (I haven't seen the Italian or Japanese.) The first printing has a
> different Darrell Sweet cover, much darker.
I have that one (hey, a first edition of a first novel; sign it for me, Lawrence?).
Frankly, I think it makes Garth look silly. Sweet has him leaning so far back in
what (I guess) is an effort to appear magnificent and strong, I actually took him
to be some kind of zombie, with poor walking skills (the red eyeballs and skullish
face might have had something to do with that, too).
> >Standing atop a castle wall is someone I must assume is Shang...
> >...the character on the front is so un-Shang that it makes
> >little sense.
> Yeah, I know.
> >Covers are amusing.
> That's one word for it.
I've read loads of accounts of how covers come to be, many of them suggesting that
this just isn't something editors or publishers want to be very involved in. For
example, I was irritated that the UPC bar-code on an Analog cover obscured a very
important part of the picture. I cut out the bar-code, taped it over a paragraph
of the same story, and mailed it to Dr. Schmidt. He sent me a personal reply (which
I regarded as quite a courtesy), to the effect that, while he agreed with my point,
he was powerless to get his artists to paint around it.
The whole area seems quirky, to me.
--
Stevens R. Miller http://www.interport.net/~lex/
Lawrence Watt-Evans
There are two U.S. covers, plus different ones in Britain, Spain, Italy, and
Japan. (I haven't seen the Italian or Japanese.) The first printing has a
different Darrell Sweet cover, much darker.
>...I took a look
>at the cover.
>
>Standing atop a castle wall is someone I must assume is Shang, because
>that's the only scene that matches the cover. But reading the
>description, the character on the front is so un-Shang that it makes
>little sense.
Yeah, I know.
>And he's wearing a crown, and looks like he's wearing yellow robes ... is
>it the Forgotten King, recently having repaired his rags, and suddenly
>appearing atop castle walls? Does the forgotten king have a beard? (I
>don't recall one...)
The King has a beard, but not like that -- it's described once, I think, as
being "a few wisps of beard" or something like that.
>
>Ah well.
>
>Covers are amusing.
That's one word for it.
--
Kate Nepveu
Tony Goldstein (to...@ipu.com) wrote:
: >Kate Nepveu (kne...@lynx.dac.neu.edu) wrote:
: >:
: >: : KN> (Brust seems to have good luck with covers. The only really bad one
: >: : KN> I can think of is _To Reign in Hell._)
: So how come they can't manage to draw Vlad with a mustache?
I had really horrendously ugly in mind, actually. Granted there are
some inaccuracies, but only TRiH would put me off picking up the book.
I like _Agyar_ and _The Gypsy_ the best, which are fairly accurate (as
far as I can tell), representative of the book, and look good.
Kate
--
A woman came up to me and said,
"I'd like to poison your mind
With wrong ideas that appeal to you
Though I am not unkind"
--They Might Be Giants, "Whistling in the Dark"
Bo Lindbergh
In article <4sesgk$2...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> khi...@ophelia.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
>
> I wonder what pose Loiosh will be in on the cover of _Dragon_?
Head and one wing dangling limply, the rest of his body obscured by the
teeth of the dragon eating him? :-)
/Bo Lindbergh
Graydon
Bo Lindbergh (d88...@xbyse.nada.kth.se) wrote:
Hee. No, no, the cover of :Dragon: should be just Vlad - 'haughty dragon
years to slay' is *such* a miss for his personality, after all. Do him
up as Count Szurke, so there's a stylized jhereg on his cloak.
Fishman Michael
In article <4sesgk$2...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, khi...@indiana.edu (Karl Hiller) writes:
|> Kate Nepveu (kne...@lynx.dac.neu.edu) wrote:
|> :
|> : : KN> (Brust seems to have good luck with covers. The only really bad one
|> : : KN> I can think of is _To Reign in Hell._)
|>
|>
|> A LITTLE VARIETY WOULD BE NICE!
|>
|> I mean, really. What do we have so far? Loiosh. Loiosh and Vlad.
|> Loiosh again. Loiosh on Vlad's arm. Loiosh and his mate. Loiosh on
|> fire. Loiosh and some stars.
After Loiosh graciously consented to having that inimportant
support character Taltos to appear on the cover, you dare to
complain???
----------------------------------------------------------
CREATIONIST A person arguing existence of God from a
viewpoint of natural theology - without knowing anything
about either Nature, or Theology.
G. W. MacLedet
----------------------------------------------------------
--
----------------------------------------------------------
CREATIONIST A person arguing existence of God from a
viewpoint of natural theology - without knowing anything
Loki
In ashen ink, Lawrence Watt-Evans (lawr...@clark.net) inscribed:
: The King has a beard, but not like that -- it's described once, I think, as
Hmm. It gets described in the early bits of the second or third book (I
ran into it, after that last post) and seems a little more substantial.
But, hell, you wrote it, your memory may well be better than mine, and
I only have _the Book of Silence_ on me.
: >Covers are amusing.
: That's one word for it.
It really amuses me watching Koros change from cover to cover. My copy
of _the Sword of Bheleu_ (later printing, different artist, copy not
on-hand) shows Koros as a very small, almost large-dog-size thing. I'd
love to see that thing carry a ton of equipment and an overman. (not to
mention Frima, for instance.)
My copy of _the Book of Silence_ (Sweet again, I think) has the nicest
Koros that I have, although I'm not really satisfied with any of them.
Out of curiosity, do -any- of the covers do justice to Koros, in your mind?
- Loki
--
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Geoffrey Wiseman | http://tdg.uoguelph.ca/~ontarion/users/geoff |
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
"Come here, I think you're beautiful
I think you're beautiful, beautiful
some kind of angel, come inside" --SoM
Lawrence Watt-Evans
In article <4sv2sv$r...@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca>, gwis...@uoguelph.ca says...
>
>In ashen ink, Lawrence Watt-Evans (lawr...@clark.net) inscribed:
>: The King has a beard, but not like that -- it's described once, I think,
as
>: being "a few wisps of beard" or something like that.
>
>Hmm. It gets described in the early bits of the second or third book (I
>ran into it, after that last post) and seems a little more substantial.
Maybe it is. Yeah, I wrote it, but it was a LONG time ago.
>It really amuses me watching Koros change from cover to cover. My copy
>of _the Sword of Bheleu_ (later printing, different artist, copy not
>on-hand) shows Koros as a very small, almost large-dog-size thing. I'd
>love to see that thing carry a ton of equipment and an overman. (not to
>mention Frima, for instance.)
Laurence Schwinger. That one's only had one U.S. cover. Koros is WAY too
small, but I like that cover anyway.
>My copy of _the Book of Silence_ (Sweet again, I think) has the nicest
>Koros that I have, although I'm not really satisfied with any of them.
>
>Out of curiosity, do -any- of the covers do justice to Koros, in your mind?
Nope. BOOK OF SILENCE is probably the best of 'em. (Yes, it's by Darrell
Sweet. By that point Lester had decided I was a Darrell Sweet author.)
Avram Grumer
In article <4sqnc8$g...@universe.digex.net>, nan...@universe.digex.net
(Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
>Afaik, there's stuff you can buy (retardant?) to mix into acrylics
>to make them dry more slowly.
Yeah, but it can mess with the texture of the paint. Too much retardant,
and the paint turns into glue.
>On the other hand, oils still have
>richer colors.
Acrylics shouldn't be considered a replacement for oils, any more than
you'd consider watercolors or pastels a replacement for either of them.
They're a different medium, and have their own strengths and weaknesses.
--
Avram Grumer Home: av...@interport.net
http://www.users.interport.net/~avram Work: agr...@crossover.com
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish, and
you drive up the price of bait and tackle, and disrupt the local ecosystem.
Loki
Admittedly; but I prefer not to contradict an writer on something he or
she wrote unless I'm sure of myself, and I'm not. ;)
: Laurence Schwinger. That one's only had one U.S. cover. Koros is WAY too
: small, but I like that cover anyway.
It's a very different impression of Garth, too, even if he is facing
away. I think I prefer the Sweet covers, although I'm not sure I'm
-overly- fond of them, either.
Let's see ... which of your covers do I like best? :)
Hey! I just discovered that I have two copies of _the Rebirth of
Wonder_. I wonder how that happened. I'd trade both of them for some of
the Ethshar that I'm missing.
Of the ones I have (by no means a complet4e collection, I only have about
eight or ten), I probably like Nightside City or _Spell of the Black
Dagger_ best. None of the covers I have -really- jump out at me,
although some of them are good.
: Nope. BOOK OF SILENCE is probably the best of 'em. (Yes, it's by Darrell
: Sweet. By that point Lester had decided I was a Darrell Sweet author.)
[grin]
Still haven't finished, but I'm liking the later ones much better than
the earlier ones (although I didn't dislike the earlier ones. In fact,
I like them quite well, although some of t hat is due to sentimental
value due to having first read it so long ago). I'm finding that while
the sentimental value and the entertainment are as good in the later ones,
I notice bits of writing that I like more often and notice things that
I dislike (the occasional pov switching in _the Lure of the Basilisk_ for
instance), less.
I -really- wish I had a map or artistic rendering of Ur-Dormulk, tho.
Next time I get tsome money to spend, I'm goin' to do a tour of all the
used bookstores and find all the Ethshar that I'm missing, so that I
can reread that in bulk.
- Loki
--
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Geoffrey Wiseman | http://tdg.uoguelph.ca/~ontarion/users/geoff |
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
"Victims ... Aren't we all."
Loki
In ashen ink, Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew (aha...@clark.net) inscribed:
: Neal McPheeters?
Pheet*ers*? Ooops. My memory's worse than I thought.
- Loki
--
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Geoffrey Wiseman | http://tdg.uoguelph.ca/~ontarion/users/geoff |
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
Loki
: can't remember the artist's name right now, and (b) I couldn't afford it; he
Somebody McPheety; I looked last night, but don't remember the first name.
: And I don't particularly want to be typecast again; I LIKE having a variety.
Sounds reasonable to me. ;)
- Loki
--
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Geoffrey Wiseman | http://tdg.uoguelph.ca/~ontarion/users/geoff |
+------------------+----------------------------------------------+
Robert A. Woodward
In article <4t33h1$g...@nntp2.backbone.olemiss.edu>,
cby...@dsu.seas.ucla.edu (Chris Byler) wrote:
> Graydon (saun...@qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
> > Bo Lindbergh (d88...@xbyse.nada.kth.se) wrote:
> > : In article <4sesgk$2...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
khi...@ophelia.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
> > : > I wonder what pose Loiosh will be in on the cover of _Dragon_?
>
> > : Head and one wing dangling limply, the rest of his body obscured by the
> > : teeth of the dragon eating him? :-)
>
> > Hee. No, no, the cover of :Dragon: should be just Vlad - 'haughty dragon
> > years to slay' is *such* a miss for his personality, after all. Do him
> > up as Count Szurke, so there's a stylized jhereg on his cloak.
>
> Don't you think it will depend on the plot?
>
> (Personally, I suspect the ascension of Norathar will figure in somewhere..)
After cross checking the dates mentioned in the Vlad Taltos series and in
the forward of _The Phoenix Guards_, I have come to the conclusion that
Norathar becomes Empress at least 50 years after the events of _Jhereg_.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
In article <31f4120c...@news.xs4all.nl>, krui...@flatearth.xs4all.nl
says...
>
>So, what are you then? A Tom Canty author? A Jim Burns author? A Don Maitz
>author? Maybe even a Michael Whelan author?
Well, I'd LIKE to be a Michael Whelan author. Or even a Rowena Morrill
author. My German publisher back in the '80s thought I was a Boris Vallejo
author, but I think that's because they'd bought rights to a job lot of old
Boris paintings.
Not Canty or Burns; Maitz would be great. Nicholas Jainschigg did my last
cover, and it suited me fine; it's on my dining room wall.
Actually, that's one way to look at it -- the five cover artists I've liked
enough that I have their work on my walls are Peter Scanlan, Nicholas
Jainschigg, David Mattingly, Darrell Sweet, and Ron Walotsky. (Those aren't
in order of preference, they're counter-clockwise from the front door.) I
also really liked the U.S. cover to THE SPELL OF THE BLACK DAGGER, but (a) I
can't remember the artist's name right now, and (b) I couldn't afford it; he
wanted a LOT of money. I also very seriously considered buying Carl
Lundgren's cover to SHINING STEEL, but didn't. (Avon thought I was a Carl
Lundgren writer. Which would be okay.)
The thing that bothers me about Darrell Sweet (who is a very nice guy, by
the way)... well, there are two. One is that, as others have pointed out,
he tends to repeat images and motifs -- clothing, faces, etc. -- to the
point that I got tired of them. The other is that he's not consistent.
When he's good he's really VERY good; I think the U.S. cover of THE
MISENCHANTED SWORD is absolutely gorgeous and a big part of why that book's
been my best seller. However, when he's off, the results can be pretty
weak; the cover of THE WIZARD AND THE WAR MACHINE comes to mind. Any artist
is going to vary, but Sweet seems to vary more in quality and less in style
than most. I didn't mind being a Darrell Sweet author for several years,
but eventually I wanted a change. And got one; I haven't had a Sweet cover
since, oh, 1989 or so.
And I don't particularly want to be typecast again; I LIKE having a variety.
--
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
Lawrence Watt-Evans (lawr...@clark.net) wrote: [snip]
> I also really liked the U.S. cover to THE SPELL OF THE BLACK DAGGER, but
Neal McPheeters?
--
Ahasuerus http://www.clark.net/pub/ahasuer/, including:
FAQs: rec.arts.sf.written, alt.pulp, the Liaden Universe
Biblios: how to write SF, the Wandering Jew
Lawrence Watt-Evans
In article <4t1ecv$d...@clarknet.clark.net>, aha...@clark.net says...
>
>Lawrence Watt-Evans (lawr...@clark.net) wrote: [snip]
>> I also really liked the U.S. cover to THE SPELL OF THE BLACK DAGGER,
but
>> (a) I can't remember the artist's name right now, [snip]
>
>Neal McPheeters?
Yup. Thank you.
Ruud van de Kruisweg
On 22 Jul 1996 14:47:59 GMT, lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence Watt-Evans) wrote:
>>Out of curiosity, do -any- of the covers do justice to Koros, in your mind?
>
>Nope. BOOK OF SILENCE is probably the best of 'em. (Yes, it's by Darrell
>Sweet. By that point Lester had decided I was a Darrell Sweet author.)
So, what are you then? A Tom Canty author? A Jim Burns author? A Don Maitz
author? Maybe even a Michael Whelan author?
Ruud
Chris Byler
Graydon (saun...@qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
> Bo Lindbergh (d88...@xbyse.nada.kth.se) wrote:
> : In article <4sesgk$2...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> khi...@ophelia.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
> : > I wonder what pose Loiosh will be in on the cover of _Dragon_?
> : Head and one wing dangling limply, the rest of his body obscured by the
> : teeth of the dragon eating him? :-)
> Hee. No, no, the cover of :Dragon: should be just Vlad - 'haughty dragon
> years to slay' is *such* a miss for his personality, after all. Do him
> up as Count Szurke, so there's a stylized jhereg on his cloak.
Don't you think it will depend on the plot?
(Personally, I suspect the ascension of Norathar will figure in somewhere..)
Chris
BTW, if you think Vlad takes on personality chars. of the Houses, how do you
explain his lack of cowardice in _Teckla_? And what do you think _Lyorn_
will be like? <g>
P.T. Korda
In article <4sv2sv$r...@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca>,
Loki <gwis...@uoguelph.ca> wrote:
>
>It really amuses me watching Koros change from cover to cover. My copy
>of _the Sword of Bheleu_ (later printing, different artist, copy not
>on-hand) shows Koros as a very small, almost large-dog-size thing. I'd
>love to see that thing carry a ton of equipment and an overman. (not to
>mention Frima, for instance.)
This seems to be a standard Darrel Sweet trait. The main character in
Jordan's _Wheel of Time_ series is on every cover, and he looks
different on every single one of the seven. Same thing w/ McKillip's
_Riddlemaster of Hed_ books--the main character is on the cover of the
first & third book, but you'd never know it was the same guy. What I
think is going on is that Sweet does a cover for book 1 of a
series. When it is time to do cover art for the second one, the author
says, "No, you got Joe Fantasy Character wrong. He's
taller/younger/blonde/red-headed/fatter/whatever." So, DKS gives it
another go. Repeat as many times as there are books in the
series. Either that, or Sweet is just plain bad. (That's what I REALLY
think, btw. His people all come out weird-looking--ill-proportioned,
or something.)
It is worth noting that Sweet HAS done some pretty nice covers--none
of them have people in them. I'm thinking in particular of the cover
of _The Silmarillion_ and of the spaceship/futuristic city pics he did
for the editions of Asimov's Galactic Empire books that I have. (From
the 80s)
To ring this back to the stated subject of this thread: In another
followup to the previous post, LWE said that he was categorised as a
"Darrel Sweet author." So, I ask, what criteria do publishers use to
determine what sort of author/book one is?
--pam
Ian A. York
In article <4t58ps$a...@knot.queensu.ca>,
Graydon <saun...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
>Chris Byler (cby...@dsu.seas.ucla.edu) wrote:
>
>: BTW, if you think Vlad takes on personality chars. of the Houses, how do you
>: explain his lack of cowardice in _Teckla_?
>
>cowardice problems. And, while I do think Vlad tends to act like the
Hey! What makes you think Teckla are cowards? That's the stereotype, but
is it true? Sure, Vlad takes it for granted, and so do the Dragons and
Dzur and so forth he hangs out with, but I doubt very much that these
people - who are all nobles, right? - have actually spent much time with
the Teckla.
There aren't that many Teckla in the stories, other than miscellaneous
grocery handlers, but the ones we do know certainly aren't cowards. Now
of course I've misplaced the names, as I always do: There's the Teckla
sorcerer in Teckla, and there are the two servants in Phoenix Guards and
500 Years after, none of whom are particularly cowardly.
Ian
--
Ian York (iay...@panix.com) <http://www.panix.com/~iayork/>
"-but as he was a York, I am rather inclined to suppose him a
very respectable Man." -Jane Austen, The History of England
Graydon
Chris Byler (cby...@dsu.seas.ucla.edu) wrote:
: Graydon (saun...@qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
: > Hee. No, no, the cover of :Dragon: should be just Vlad - 'haughty dragon
: > up as Count Szurke, so there's a stylized jhereg on his cloak.
: Don't you think it will depend on the plot?
No. There is some tendency to make the cover match the title, when the
title is a common English word, but it's never been anything like a match
for the _plot_.
: (Personally, I suspect the ascension of Norathar will figure in somewhere..)
Don't think so; Dragaeran politics just doesn't move *that* fast. Of
course, we don't really have enough info to make guesses based on
Paarfi's writing speed.
: BTW, if you think Vlad takes on personality chars. of the Houses, how do you
: explain his lack of cowardice in _Teckla_?
What lack of cowardice? :Teckla: is just *full* of Vlad having moral
cowardice problems. And, while I do think Vlad tends to act like the
stereotypical behaviour of the house in the title, Vlad's base
personality is comprehensively blood-hungry; way down deep somewhere,
Dolivar is still a Dragon.
: And what do you think _Lyorn_ will be like? <g>
Lyorns are sticklers for protocol and forms; Vlad being like that makes
my head hurt. But I can see him doing it; he's got a very facile social
mask, and he might decide that it was fun.
tomlinson
Chris Byler (cby...@dsu.seas.ucla.edu) wrote:
: BTW, if you think Vlad takes on personality chars. of the Houses, how do you
: explain his lack of cowardice in _Teckla_? And what do you think _Lyorn_
: will be like? <g>
Not _cowardly_, maybe, but certainly the Vlad Taltos of _Teckla_
is peripheral, a bit player, influenced by events rather than
influencing them. He seems to spend the whole book blindly
reacting to things, trying to "do something" but, in the end,
doing nothing. Not at all like the superclever Vlad of _Jhereg_
or _Yendi_.
I wonder how Vlad, never one to mince words, will behave in
_Issola_?
Cheers,
-et
Avram Grumer
In article <4t33h1$g...@nntp2.backbone.olemiss.edu>,
cby...@dsu.seas.ucla.edu (Chris Byler) wrote:
>BTW, if you think Vlad takes on personality chars. of the Houses, how do you
>explain his lack of cowardice in _Teckla_?
As I recall, Vlad spends a lot of _Teckla_ not doing much of anything, and
trying to avoid dealing with his problems. It's been a long time since I
read it, though.
--
Avram Grumer Home: av...@interport.net
http://www.users.interport.net/~avram Work: agr...@crossover.com
The plight at the end of the carpal tunnel may be an oncoming strain.
Chris Byler
tomlinson (etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu) wrote:
> Chris Byler (cby...@dsu.seas.ucla.edu) wrote:
> : BTW, if you think Vlad takes on personality chars. of the Houses, how do you
> : explain his lack of cowardice in _Teckla_? And what do you think _Lyorn_
> : will be like? <g>
> Not _cowardly_, maybe, but certainly the Vlad Taltos of _Teckla_
> is peripheral, a bit player, influenced by events rather than
> influencing them. He seems to spend the whole book blindly
> reacting to things, trying to "do something" but, in the end,
> doing nothing. Not at all like the superclever Vlad of _Jhereg_
> or _Yendi_.
That's true: maybe the essence of Tecklaness (whatever that means) is that
they are peripheral, watching great things happen instead of *making* them
happen. Someone else pointed out that the Teckla we've seen so far
(Micah, for instance) aren't particularly cowardly, and suggested that it
was just a Dragon stereotype. I guess to a Dragon, a lot of people would
look cowardly.
> I wonder how Vlad, never one to mince words, will behave in
> _Issola_?
I wonder how he'll behave in _Dzur_? And what could get him into a state
of mind that he'd behave like a Dzurlord?
And the thought of Vlad in _Iorich_ just sends chills down my spine..
> Cheers,
> -et
Chris
Nanbigal
A Night At the Castle
(Scene: The library at Castle Black. Various furniture,
including a wardrobe, a chaise lounge, and a polycord. Back
stage right, double doors; a large window stage left.)
(Sounds of pursuit. Kragar and Loiosh rush in and slam the
doors. Sounds of pursuit fade.)
KRAGAR: (listening) I think-a they gone now. Boy, we gotta
tell-a da Boss this.
LOIOSH: Honk.
KRAGAR: Quick, somebody come!
(Kragar hides behind the curtains, Loiosh behind the coat rack.
Vlad, wearing a painted-on moustache, enters, accompanied by a
young Jhereg.)
VLAD: Dzeppo, call all of the brothel owners together. Tell
them to fire the tags and launder the funds. If that doesn't
work, we'll fire the funds and launder the tags. It'll all come
out in the wash.
(Dzeppo nods and exits. Vlad notices Kragar's feet sticking out
from under the curtains.)
VLAD: Kragar, where are you?
(Kragar and Loiosh burst from hiding.)
KRAGAR: Boss! We got-a bad news!
VLAD: You've got to stop sneaking up on me like that. All
right, what bad news?
KRAGAR: The Sauceresque in Green, she's-a no-a Athyra!
VLAD: Thanks, I already ate.
LOIOSH: Honk.
VLAD: That's easy for you to say.
KRAGAR: No make-a da joke, Boss, this is-a serious! The
Sauceresque in Green, she's-a Yendi!
VLAD: (dramatically) The Sauceresque in Green - a Yendi?!
(aside) I killed a Yendi in my pyjamas once - how that Yendi got
in my pyjamas is another story.
(The Sorceress in Green [Margaret Dumont] enters.)
SORCERESS: I must protest this outrageous behavior! Easterners
running rampant! (to Loiosh) And this - creature!
(Loiosh drops several handfuls of silverware, two Morganti
daggers, and a dead teckla.)
VLAD: (aside) I'm waiting for the Imperial Orb.
(Loiosh drops the Imperial Orb.)
LOIOSH: Honk.
(Vlad embraces the Sorceress in Green. Kragar rushes over and
begins to play the polycord.)
VLAD: (to the Sorceress) You minx! How could you toy with the
affections of a sweet young thing like me? How could you lead me
on, then cast me aside like yesterday's goulash? How much did
you pay for this necklace?
SORCERESS: Oh - ! I never - !
VLAD: Yes, and it shows.
SORCERESS: (To Loiosh) I demand that you return the Imperial Orb!
(Loiosh opens his overcoat [work with me, OK?] and reveals a
selection of Imperial Orbs.)
(Sudden pounding.)
KHAAVERN: Open this door!
VLAD: It's the wife!
(Vlad dives under the polycord. Kragar and Loiosh both try to
hide behind the coatrack. After a brief struggle, Kragar dives
under the polycord, dislodging Vlad, who climbs into the wardrobe
and tries to drag the Sorceress in with him. Kragar climbs out
from under the polycord and tries to drag the Sorceress behind
the curtains. Loiosh and Kragar wrap the Sorceress in the
curtains and finally drop her out the window just as Lord
Khaavern and the Phoenix Guards break the door down. All rush to
the window.)
VLAD: Look, a flying sorceress!
LOIOSH: Honk.
-Nan
Visit me at home(page)!
http://www.primenet.com/~nanbgl/