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Outlaws in SF and other literature
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Al Lal
Dec 14, 2012, 10:27:31 PM12/14/12
to
I enjoy reading about rebels and outlaws. My favorite story is the classic tales of Robin Hood, which I first read when I was about 10, and last read about 10 years ago. I have just ordered a copy of the classic tales and will read it for like the tenth time.
In SF, I enjoyed reading Thieves World - a collection of stories set in a city about thieves.
I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich. Land and natural resources which should be freely shared, is instead concentrated in the hands of a few rich and powerful people. According to economists, property rights and rule of law is essential for economic success. I am no economist, and believe that the law favors those who already possess land and wealth - the law serves the powerful.
I would like to read SF about outlaws who are heroes. Perhaps a futuristic update of Robin Hood.
In the future what would be the Gini coefficient of a sovereign nation or planet? If society is mostly equal, would there be less crime? Is it necessary to sacrifice equality to maximize total wealth?
Should wealth or GDP maximization be the goal of society? If instead, happiness maximization is the goal of society, would there be less crime?
What kind of political economy would a nation or planet have? Would there be less crime in communist states as compared to capitalist states? According to economists, communism has proven to be an economic failure, and capitalism is an economic success, and in the future most states will be capitalist.
Who is your favorite SF outlaw? What moral justification do they have for breaking the law?
Abhinav Lal
Creator & Rebel
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
-- Albert Einstein
In SF, I enjoyed reading Thieves World - a collection of stories set in a city about thieves.
I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich. Land and natural resources which should be freely shared, is instead concentrated in the hands of a few rich and powerful people. According to economists, property rights and rule of law is essential for economic success. I am no economist, and believe that the law favors those who already possess land and wealth - the law serves the powerful.
I would like to read SF about outlaws who are heroes. Perhaps a futuristic update of Robin Hood.
In the future what would be the Gini coefficient of a sovereign nation or planet? If society is mostly equal, would there be less crime? Is it necessary to sacrifice equality to maximize total wealth?
Should wealth or GDP maximization be the goal of society? If instead, happiness maximization is the goal of society, would there be less crime?
What kind of political economy would a nation or planet have? Would there be less crime in communist states as compared to capitalist states? According to economists, communism has proven to be an economic failure, and capitalism is an economic success, and in the future most states will be capitalist.
Who is your favorite SF outlaw? What moral justification do they have for breaking the law?
Abhinav Lal
Creator & Rebel
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
-- Albert Einstein
Rod Speed
Dec 14, 2012, 11:26:01 PM12/14/12
to
Al Lal <alal1...@gmail.com> wrote
> I enjoy reading about rebels and outlaws. My favorite story is
> the classic tales of Robin Hood, which I first read when I was
> about 10, and last read about 10 years ago. I have just ordered
> a copy of the classic tales and will read it for like the tenth time.
> In SF, I enjoyed reading Thieves World - a
> collection of stories set in a city about thieves.
> I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich.
They normally steal from anyone who doesn't have what
he owns nailed down, particularly with the druggys that
do the absolute vast bulk of the stealing now.
> Land and natural resources which should be freely
> shared, is instead concentrated in the hands of a
> few rich and powerful people.
Hasn't been like that in the modern first and second
world for a hell of a long time now with that last.
> According to economists, property rights and
> rule of law is essential for economic success.
That mangles the real story utterly.
> I am no economist, and believe that the law
> favors those who already possess land and
> wealth - the law serves the powerful.
That is a pig ignorant lie with the law on burglary and fraud.
> I would like to read SF about outlaws who are heroes.
> Perhaps a futuristic update of Robin Hood.
Not very plausible if they rob Bill Gates and stop him
using so much money for worthy causes like malaria etc.
Which might just be why you don't see too much SF like that.
> In the future what would be the Gini coefficient
> of a sovereign nation or planet?
Who cares ?
> If society is mostly equal, would there be less crime?
We know that that does not follow.
> Is it necessary to sacrifice equality to maximize total wealth?
Very likely, essentially because most don't try very hard if what
they get out of the system doesn't vary with the effort they put
into the system.
> Should wealth or GDP maximization be the goal of society?
It never is exclusively.
> If instead, happiness maximization is the
> goal of society, would there be less crime?
Presumably that would depend on how successful that
attempt to maximise happyness was and whether not being
robbed is included in the measure of happyness achieved.
> What kind of political economy would a nation or planet have?
Presumably a successful one. You don't see too many
very happy with political economys that don't work.
> Would there be less crime in communist
> states as compared to capitalist states?
Depends on how you define crime.
Certainly if no one has much worth stealing,
and there are so few that do have much worth
stealing that you can surround them with armed
goons so it isnt feasible to steal from them,
there wouldn't be a lot of property crime.
But there clearly was a lot of public drunkenness etc
when the russians tried it, arguably more than you
saw in the west in economically successful countrys.
Whether there would be more or less
say rape and murder is harder to say.
> According to economists, communism
> has proven to be an economic failure,
> and capitalism is an economic success,
And according to anyone with even half a clue too.
> and in the future most states will be capitalist.
At least until someone comes up with something
radically different that does work even better...
> Who is your favorite SF outlaw?
Don't have any favorite outlaws of any flavor.
> What moral justification do they have for breaking the law?
That's its bad law.
> I enjoy reading about rebels and outlaws. My favorite story is
> the classic tales of Robin Hood, which I first read when I was
> about 10, and last read about 10 years ago. I have just ordered
> a copy of the classic tales and will read it for like the tenth time.
> In SF, I enjoyed reading Thieves World - a
> collection of stories set in a city about thieves.
> I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich.
he owns nailed down, particularly with the druggys that
do the absolute vast bulk of the stealing now.
> Land and natural resources which should be freely
> shared, is instead concentrated in the hands of a
> few rich and powerful people.
world for a hell of a long time now with that last.
> According to economists, property rights and
> rule of law is essential for economic success.
> I am no economist, and believe that the law
> favors those who already possess land and
> wealth - the law serves the powerful.
> I would like to read SF about outlaws who are heroes.
> Perhaps a futuristic update of Robin Hood.
using so much money for worthy causes like malaria etc.
Which might just be why you don't see too much SF like that.
> In the future what would be the Gini coefficient
> of a sovereign nation or planet?
> If society is mostly equal, would there be less crime?
> Is it necessary to sacrifice equality to maximize total wealth?
they get out of the system doesn't vary with the effort they put
into the system.
> Should wealth or GDP maximization be the goal of society?
> If instead, happiness maximization is the
> goal of society, would there be less crime?
attempt to maximise happyness was and whether not being
robbed is included in the measure of happyness achieved.
> What kind of political economy would a nation or planet have?
very happy with political economys that don't work.
> Would there be less crime in communist
> states as compared to capitalist states?
Certainly if no one has much worth stealing,
and there are so few that do have much worth
stealing that you can surround them with armed
goons so it isnt feasible to steal from them,
there wouldn't be a lot of property crime.
But there clearly was a lot of public drunkenness etc
when the russians tried it, arguably more than you
saw in the west in economically successful countrys.
Whether there would be more or less
say rape and murder is harder to say.
> According to economists, communism
> has proven to be an economic failure,
> and capitalism is an economic success,
> and in the future most states will be capitalist.
radically different that does work even better...
> Who is your favorite SF outlaw?
> What moral justification do they have for breaking the law?
Don Kuenz
Dec 16, 2012, 11:14:22 PM12/16/12
to
Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> If you walk after dusk in my neighborhood wearing
> headphones and not paying attention, you will get
> run over by a soccer mom in a SUV running to the
> store to get something for her kids.
A lot of fillies in my town don't drive their mother's SUV. They drive
jacked-up pickup trucks, some with provocative, sexually suggestive
decals that leave little to the imagination. The tall trucks sound like
rocket-ships, vrroom-rolling along. My nephew says some owners put six
figures into such a truck. When a rocket-ship truck tails me in my
twelve year old minivan bought used ten years ago it leaves me with
the impression that its driver would just as soon run me over as look
at me.
> I walk 2.5 miles five nights a week. I really
> have to watch the streets when I cross them.
> Sometimes they forget to put on their headlights
> because they have been at the distilled grape or
> potato already.
Not to mention drugs. Social workers say that one might never drive
again if one knew how many drivers were drunk or high at a given
moment.
--
Don Kuenz
> If you walk after dusk in my neighborhood wearing
> headphones and not paying attention, you will get
> run over by a soccer mom in a SUV running to the
> store to get something for her kids.
A lot of fillies in my town don't drive their mother's SUV. They drive
jacked-up pickup trucks, some with provocative, sexually suggestive
decals that leave little to the imagination. The tall trucks sound like
rocket-ships, vrroom-rolling along. My nephew says some owners put six
figures into such a truck. When a rocket-ship truck tails me in my
twelve year old minivan bought used ten years ago it leaves me with
the impression that its driver would just as soon run me over as look
at me.
> I walk 2.5 miles five nights a week. I really
> have to watch the streets when I cross them.
> Sometimes they forget to put on their headlights
> because they have been at the distilled grape or
> potato already.
Not to mention drugs. Social workers say that one might never drive
again if one knew how many drivers were drunk or high at a given
moment.
--
Don Kuenz
William F. Adams
Dec 15, 2012, 8:27:29 AM12/15/12
to
Rat_ --- read them in publication order.
If you like Star Wars, you should read the Han Solo and Lanlo
Calrissian trilogies as well.
Timothy Zahn's Icarus Hunt features a similar character as well, and
you'll have to find Walter Jon Williams Drake Magistral books.
Kiera the thief is a recurring character in Steven Brust's Dragaera
books.
I'd also suggest reading _If the World Were a Village_ and some
primers on logic and philosophy --- but that's all part of growing up
--- thievery seems very romantic until one leaves a laundry room to
answer a phone call and returns to find someone has taken one's nicest
clothing.
William
William
Will in New Haven
Dec 15, 2012, 10:36:22 AM12/15/12
to
On Dec 14, 10:27 pm, Al Lal <alal112...@gmail.com> wrote:
What moral justification do they have for breaking the law?
--
Will in New Haven
art...@yahoo.com
Dec 15, 2012, 11:42:06 AM12/15/12
to
On Dec 15, 8:27 am, "William F. Adams" <willad...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Dec 14, 10:27 pm, Al Lal <alal112...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I enjoy reading about rebels and outlaws. My favorite story is the classic tales of Robin Hood, which I first read when I was about 10, and last read about 10 years ago. I have just ordered a copy of the classic tales and will read it for like the tenth time.
>
> > In SF, I enjoyed reading Thieves World - a collection of stories set in a city about thieves.
>
> > I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich. Land and natural resources which should be freely shared, is instead concentrated in the hands of a few rich and powerful people. According to economists, property rights and rule of law is essential for economic success. I am no economist, and believe that the law favors those who already possess land and wealth - the law serves the powerful.
>
> > I would like to read SF about outlaws who are heroes. Perhaps a futuristic update of Robin Hood.
>
> > In the future what would be the Gini coefficient of a sovereign nation or planet? If society is mostly equal, would there be less crime? Is it necessary to sacrifice equality to maximize total wealth?
>
> > Should wealth or GDP maximization be the goal of society? If instead, happiness maximization is the goal of society, would there be less crime?
>
> > What kind of political economy would a nation or planet have? Would there be less crime in communist states as compared to capitalist states? According to economists, communism has proven to be an economic failure, and capitalism is an economic success, and in the future most states will be capitalist.
>
> > Who is your favorite SF outlaw? What moral justification do they have for breaking the law?
>
> > Abhinav Lal
> > Creator & Rebel
>
> > "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
> > -- Albert Einstein
>
> I believe the story you want is Harry Harrison's _The Stainless Steel
> Rat_ --- read them in publication order.
There is also Repairman Jack who appears in a number of novels by F.
> On Dec 14, 10:27 pm, Al Lal <alal112...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I enjoy reading about rebels and outlaws. My favorite story is the classic tales of Robin Hood, which I first read when I was about 10, and last read about 10 years ago. I have just ordered a copy of the classic tales and will read it for like the tenth time.
>
> > In SF, I enjoyed reading Thieves World - a collection of stories set in a city about thieves.
>
> > I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich. Land and natural resources which should be freely shared, is instead concentrated in the hands of a few rich and powerful people. According to economists, property rights and rule of law is essential for economic success. I am no economist, and believe that the law favors those who already possess land and wealth - the law serves the powerful.
>
> > I would like to read SF about outlaws who are heroes. Perhaps a futuristic update of Robin Hood.
>
> > In the future what would be the Gini coefficient of a sovereign nation or planet? If society is mostly equal, would there be less crime? Is it necessary to sacrifice equality to maximize total wealth?
>
> > Should wealth or GDP maximization be the goal of society? If instead, happiness maximization is the goal of society, would there be less crime?
>
> > What kind of political economy would a nation or planet have? Would there be less crime in communist states as compared to capitalist states? According to economists, communism has proven to be an economic failure, and capitalism is an economic success, and in the future most states will be capitalist.
>
> > Who is your favorite SF outlaw? What moral justification do they have for breaking the law?
>
> > Abhinav Lal
> > Creator & Rebel
>
> > "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
> > -- Albert Einstein
>
> I believe the story you want is Harry Harrison's _The Stainless Steel
> Rat_ --- read them in publication order.
Paul Wilson
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Dec 15, 2012, 2:48:39 PM12/15/12
to
In article <be037b0c-025c-40d1...@h5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
Well, I disagree totally with the OP's politics, but:
The Eli Monpress books by Rachel Aaron are very entertaining stories about
a fantasy thief. (The later books open up the scope to the point that
Eli's capers are only a minor factor though).
Also, don't forget Alar the ethical thief from Charles Harness's _The Paradox
Men_.
And of course there's Bilbo Baggins..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
The Eli Monpress books by Rachel Aaron are very entertaining stories about
a fantasy thief. (The later books open up the scope to the point that
Eli's capers are only a minor factor though).
Also, don't forget Alar the ethical thief from Charles Harness's _The Paradox
Men_.
And of course there's Bilbo Baggins..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
PeterM
Dec 15, 2012, 3:02:45 PM12/15/12
to
because he specializes in revenge against and protection
from other, less discriminating criminals. There are
certainly extremely valid arguments saying that's really
no different, but it sure feels different.
My favorite fictional print thieves are the Dortmunder
gang in Donald Westlake's series of novels. They're
not science fiction, but they're well worth reading.
I'd start with the first one, The Hot Rock, in which
they have to steal the same emerald six or seven times.
Konrad Gaertner
Dec 15, 2012, 3:42:50 PM12/15/12
to
Al Lal wrote:
>
> I would like to read SF about outlaws who are heroes. Perhaps a
> futuristic update of Robin Hood.
For science fiction try Walter Jon Williams' Drake Maijstral books.
>
> I would like to read SF about outlaws who are heroes. Perhaps a
> futuristic update of Robin Hood.
The third one was a little disappointing, but _Crown Jewels_ and
_House of Shards_ were very good.
eluki bes shahar's Saint Butterflies-are-free Peace Sincere is a
smuggler (and unwitting Librarian) more than a thief, but still
interesting.
In fantasy, P.C. Hodgell's _God Stalk_ shows Jame's brief career as
a professional thief.
And while I didn't care for it much, Michael J. Sullivan's Riyria
Chronicles (starting with _Theft of Swords_) may interest you.
And we shouldn't forget Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories.
--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - email: kgae...@tx.rr.com
http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/
"I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface."
-- James Nicoll
Howard Brazee
Dec 15, 2012, 5:09:36 PM12/15/12
to
On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 12:02:45 -0800 (PST), PeterM
<peterme...@gmail.com> wrote:
>My favorite fictional print thieves are the Dortmunder
>gang in Donald Westlake's series of novels. They're
>not science fiction, but they're well worth reading.
>I'd start with the first one, The Hot Rock, in which
>they have to steal the same emerald six or seven times.
He wrote a story with a different protagonist when he thought he
<peterme...@gmail.com> wrote:
>My favorite fictional print thieves are the Dortmunder
>gang in Donald Westlake's series of novels. They're
>not science fiction, but they're well worth reading.
>I'd start with the first one, The Hot Rock, in which
>they have to steal the same emerald six or seven times.
couldn't use Dortmunder. When he got control back, he couldn't
change the unwritten image in his mind of the 2nd character, so he
couldn't convert him to Dortmunder.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Kurt Busiek
Dec 15, 2012, 5:33:32 PM12/15/12
to
On 2012-12-15 22:09:36 +0000, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> said:
> On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 12:02:45 -0800 (PST), PeterM
> <peterme...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My favorite fictional print thieves are the Dortmunder
>> gang in Donald Westlake's series of novels. They're
>> not science fiction, but they're well worth reading.
>> I'd start with the first one, The Hot Rock, in which
>> they have to steal the same emerald six or seven times.
>
> He wrote a story with a different protagonist when he thought he
> couldn't use Dortmunder. When he got control back, he couldn't
> change the unwritten image in his mind of the 2nd character, so he
> couldn't convert him to Dortmunder.
Could you unpack that a little? It doesn't really sound like it makes
> On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 12:02:45 -0800 (PST), PeterM
> <peterme...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My favorite fictional print thieves are the Dortmunder
>> gang in Donald Westlake's series of novels. They're
>> not science fiction, but they're well worth reading.
>> I'd start with the first one, The Hot Rock, in which
>> they have to steal the same emerald six or seven times.
>
> He wrote a story with a different protagonist when he thought he
> couldn't use Dortmunder. When he got control back, he couldn't
> change the unwritten image in his mind of the 2nd character, so he
> couldn't convert him to Dortmunder.
sense, but I may be misunderstanding.
As I understand it, THE HOT ROCK started out intended to be part of his
tough-guy Parker series, but it kept getting funny. So he changed the
Parker gang to the Dortmunder gang and let it get as funny as it liked.
But he wouldn't have needed to regain control of Dortmunder before THE
HOT ROCK, since Dortmunder didn't exist before that.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Howard Brazee
Dec 15, 2012, 6:51:49 PM12/15/12
to
On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 14:33:32 -0800, Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com>
wrote:
>> He wrote a story with a different protagonist when he thought he
>> couldn't use Dortmunder. When he got control back, he couldn't
>> change the unwritten image in his mind of the 2nd character, so he
>> couldn't convert him to Dortmunder.
>
>Could you unpack that a little? It doesn't really sound like it makes
>sense, but I may be misunderstanding.
>
>As I understand it, THE HOT ROCK started out intended to be part of his
>tough-guy Parker series, but it kept getting funny. So he changed the
>Parker gang to the Dortmunder gang and let it get as funny as it liked.
>
>But he wouldn't have needed to regain control of Dortmunder before THE
>HOT ROCK, since Dortmunder didn't exist before that.
My books are packed up. There's a book of short stories of his,
where one story has a different protagonist. That was because he
didn't think he owned the rights to Dortmunder (sold to Hollywood???).
So he wrote a Dortmunder type story with a different protagonist. When
he discovered he could make that character Dortmunder, he already
pictured someone taller and looking different in his head. To *him*,
the character wasn't Dortmunder, even though we would never have
known, had he just changed the character's name.
wrote:
>> He wrote a story with a different protagonist when he thought he
>> couldn't use Dortmunder. When he got control back, he couldn't
>> change the unwritten image in his mind of the 2nd character, so he
>> couldn't convert him to Dortmunder.
>
>Could you unpack that a little? It doesn't really sound like it makes
>sense, but I may be misunderstanding.
>
>As I understand it, THE HOT ROCK started out intended to be part of his
>tough-guy Parker series, but it kept getting funny. So he changed the
>Parker gang to the Dortmunder gang and let it get as funny as it liked.
>
>But he wouldn't have needed to regain control of Dortmunder before THE
>HOT ROCK, since Dortmunder didn't exist before that.
where one story has a different protagonist. That was because he
didn't think he owned the rights to Dortmunder (sold to Hollywood???).
So he wrote a Dortmunder type story with a different protagonist. When
he discovered he could make that character Dortmunder, he already
pictured someone taller and looking different in his head. To *him*,
the character wasn't Dortmunder, even though we would never have
known, had he just changed the character's name.
Robert Carnegie
Dec 15, 2012, 7:56:21 PM12/15/12
to
On Saturday, 15 December 2012 03:27:31 UTC, Al Lal wrote:
> I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich.
Having done so, they become rich, eh?
> I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich.
Well, you might enjoy:
_My Name is Legion_ by Roger Zelazny
_Forerunner Foray_ by Andre Norton
Real thieves and other criminals aren't nice people.
Robert Carnegie
Dec 15, 2012, 8:12:14 PM12/15/12
to
Oh, and there are several thief protagonists in superhero comicbooks,
which either are science fiction or may as well be. In Marvel Comics,
Gambit has a mutant power to make inanimate matter explode powerfully
after he touches it, uses charged playing-cards as a motif weapon,
and is the adopted child of the leader of New Orleans Thieves' Guild.
The Black Cat is a fanservice model with luck as a superpower
and a relaxed attitude to sanity.
which either are science fiction or may as well be. In Marvel Comics,
Gambit has a mutant power to make inanimate matter explode powerfully
after he touches it, uses charged playing-cards as a motif weapon,
and is the adopted child of the leader of New Orleans Thieves' Guild.
The Black Cat is a fanservice model with luck as a superpower
and a relaxed attitude to sanity.
Kurt Busiek
Dec 15, 2012, 9:48:10 PM12/15/12
to
On 2012-12-15 23:51:49 +0000, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> said:
> On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 14:33:32 -0800, Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> He wrote a story with a different protagonist when he thought he
>>> couldn't use Dortmunder. When he got control back, he couldn't
>>> change the unwritten image in his mind of the 2nd character, so he
>>> couldn't convert him to Dortmunder.
>>
>> Could you unpack that a little? It doesn't really sound like it makes
>> sense, but I may be misunderstanding.
>>
>> As I understand it, THE HOT ROCK started out intended to be part of his
>> tough-guy Parker series, but it kept getting funny. So he changed the
>> Parker gang to the Dortmunder gang and let it get as funny as it liked.
>>
>> But he wouldn't have needed to regain control of Dortmunder before THE
>> HOT ROCK, since Dortmunder didn't exist before that.
>
> My books are packed up. There's a book of short stories of his,
> where one story has a different protagonist.
I have that book, and vaguely remember the story, yeah.
> On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 14:33:32 -0800, Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> He wrote a story with a different protagonist when he thought he
>>> couldn't use Dortmunder. When he got control back, he couldn't
>>> change the unwritten image in his mind of the 2nd character, so he
>>> couldn't convert him to Dortmunder.
>>
>> Could you unpack that a little? It doesn't really sound like it makes
>> sense, but I may be misunderstanding.
>>
>> As I understand it, THE HOT ROCK started out intended to be part of his
>> tough-guy Parker series, but it kept getting funny. So he changed the
>> Parker gang to the Dortmunder gang and let it get as funny as it liked.
>>
>> But he wouldn't have needed to regain control of Dortmunder before THE
>> HOT ROCK, since Dortmunder didn't exist before that.
>
> My books are packed up. There's a book of short stories of his,
> where one story has a different protagonist.
Thanks.
Brenda Clough
Dec 15, 2012, 11:04:43 PM12/15/12
to
On 12/15/2012 5:09 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 12:02:45 -0800 (PST), PeterM
> <peterme...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My favorite fictional print thieves are the Dortmunder
>> gang in Donald Westlake's series of novels. They're
>> not science fiction, but they're well worth reading.
>> I'd start with the first one, The Hot Rock, in which
>> they have to steal the same emerald six or seven times.
>
> He wrote a story with a different protagonist when he thought he
> couldn't use Dortmunder. When he got control back, he couldn't
> change the unwritten image in his mind of the 2nd character, so he
> couldn't convert him to Dortmunder.
>
Another famous thief protag might be Modesty Blaise, as mentioned
> On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 12:02:45 -0800 (PST), PeterM
> <peterme...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My favorite fictional print thieves are the Dortmunder
>> gang in Donald Westlake's series of novels. They're
>> not science fiction, but they're well worth reading.
>> I'd start with the first one, The Hot Rock, in which
>> they have to steal the same emerald six or seven times.
>
> He wrote a story with a different protagonist when he thought he
> couldn't use Dortmunder. When he got control back, he couldn't
> change the unwritten image in his mind of the 2nd character, so he
> couldn't convert him to Dortmunder.
>
elsewhere on this board. There are many more rebellions/revolutionary
type criminals, too. THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS would be great
example of this.
Brenda
--
My latest novel SPEAK TO OUR DESIRES is available exclusively from Book
View Cafe.
http://www.bookviewcafe.com/index.php/Brenda-Clough/Novels/Speak-to-Our-Desires-Chapter-01
Kurt Busiek
Dec 15, 2012, 11:56:40 PM12/15/12
to
On 2012-12-16 04:04:43 +0000, Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> said:
> On 12/15/2012 5:09 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 12:02:45 -0800 (PST), PeterM
>> <peterme...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My favorite fictional print thieves are the Dortmunder
>>> gang in Donald Westlake's series of novels. They're
>>> not science fiction, but they're well worth reading.
>>> I'd start with the first one, The Hot Rock, in which
>>> they have to steal the same emerald six or seven times.
>>
>> He wrote a story with a different protagonist when he thought he
>> couldn't use Dortmunder. When he got control back, he couldn't
>> change the unwritten image in his mind of the 2nd character, so he
>> couldn't convert him to Dortmunder.
>
> Another famous thief protag might be Modesty Blaise, as mentioned
> elsewhere on this board. There are many more rebellions/revolutionary
> type criminals, too. THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS would be great
> example of this.
Timothy Zahn's Dragonback adventures, starting with DRAGON AND THIEF,
> On 12/15/2012 5:09 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 12:02:45 -0800 (PST), PeterM
>> <peterme...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My favorite fictional print thieves are the Dortmunder
>>> gang in Donald Westlake's series of novels. They're
>>> not science fiction, but they're well worth reading.
>>> I'd start with the first one, The Hot Rock, in which
>>> they have to steal the same emerald six or seven times.
>>
>> He wrote a story with a different protagonist when he thought he
>> couldn't use Dortmunder. When he got control back, he couldn't
>> change the unwritten image in his mind of the 2nd character, so he
>> couldn't convert him to Dortmunder.
>
> Another famous thief protag might be Modesty Blaise, as mentioned
> elsewhere on this board. There are many more rebellions/revolutionary
> type criminals, too. THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS would be great
> example of this.
might be a good choice.
Al Lal
Dec 16, 2012, 5:58:12 AM12/16/12
to
Al Lal
Dec 16, 2012, 6:00:34 AM12/16/12
to
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> William
Al Lal
Dec 16, 2012, 6:05:44 AM12/16/12
to
On Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:26:21 AM UTC+5:30, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Saturday, 15 December 2012 03:27:31 UTC, Al Lal wrote:
>
> > I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich.
>
>
>
> Having done so, they become rich, eh?
>
A while after I lost my job in Singapore, I was homeless and ran out of money and slept at the observation deck at the international airport in Singapore. I I stole food, did not pay bay the bill at restaurants, and worst of all I even once stole a magazine.
> On Saturday, 15 December 2012 03:27:31 UTC, Al Lal wrote:
>
> > I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich.
>
>
>
> Having done so, they become rich, eh?
>
I never did become rich.
>
>
> Well, you might enjoy:
>
>
>
> _My Name is Legion_ by Roger Zelazny
>
>
>
> _Forerunner Foray_ by Andre Norton
>
>
>
> Real thieves and other criminals aren't nice people.
Rod Speed
Dec 16, 2012, 1:25:22 PM12/16/12
to
"Al Lal" <alal1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:105a23e9-19e2-410f...@googlegroups.com...
> and I suggest you do the same.
sideways.
Rod Speed
Dec 16, 2012, 1:28:55 PM12/16/12
to
Al Lal <alal1...@gmail.com> wrote
> Robert Carnegie wrote
> I was homeless and ran out of money and slept at the observation deck
> at the international airport in Singapore. I I stole food, did not pay
> bay
> the bill at restaurants, and worst of all I even once stole a magazine.
So you stole from the nothing like rich in fact.
> I never did become rich.
Can't imagine why for the life of me.
>> Real thieves and other criminals aren't nice people.
> I guess then I am not a nice person.
You did get that right, presumably by accident.
> Robert Carnegie wrote
>> Al Lal wrote
>>> I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich.
>> Having done so, they become rich, eh?
> A while after I lost my job in Singapore,
For being a completely unemployable arsehole...
>>> I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich.
>> Having done so, they become rich, eh?
> A while after I lost my job in Singapore,
> I was homeless and ran out of money and slept at the observation deck
> at the international airport in Singapore. I I stole food, did not pay
> bay
> the bill at restaurants, and worst of all I even once stole a magazine.
> I never did become rich.
>> Real thieves and other criminals aren't nice people.
> I guess then I am not a nice person.
Michael Stemper
Dec 17, 2012, 3:58:35 PM12/17/12
to
In article <be037b0c-025c-40d1...@h5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, "William F. Adams" <will...@aol.com> writes:
>On Dec 14, 10:27=A0pm, Al Lal <alal112...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich. =A0Land and =
>natural resources which should be freely shared, is instead concentrated in=
> the hands of a few rich and powerful people. =A0According to economists, p=
>roperty rights and rule of law is essential for economic success. =A0I am n=
>o economist, and believe that the law favors those who already possess land=
>stic update of Robin Hood.
>> Who is your favorite SF outlaw? =A0What moral justification do they have =
>for breaking the law?
how much the OP really wants that Robin Hood thing. DiGriz isn't really
into asset redistribution, except when it benefits him.
To address the OP's ultimate question, DiGriz's justification goes along
the lines of: "When I commit a big theft, it give the police an excuse to
use all that equipment that the taxpayers bought them, as well as some
much-needed exercise. Newspapers and other media outlets have exciting
stories to publish, so it helps them, as well as bringing some interest
to the generally bucolic (if not outright bovine) lives of the citizens
of this planet. The company that I rip off is insured, so it's not
harmed. The insurance company has to pay off on the policy, but they've
built that into their rates already, so if nobody stole anything, they
(the insurance company) would be the theives. So, I'm a net public
benefactor. And get rich in the process."
> --- read them in publication order.
Read the first three or five, and then stop. I go for five, but I can
certainly see a case for sticking with the original three.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
>On Dec 14, 10:27=A0pm, Al Lal <alal112...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I believe it is alright for the poor to steal from the rich. =A0Land and =
>natural resources which should be freely shared, is instead concentrated in=
> the hands of a few rich and powerful people. =A0According to economists, p=
>roperty rights and rule of law is essential for economic success. =A0I am n=
>o economist, and believe that the law favors those who already possess land=
> and wealth - the law serves the powerful.
>>
>> I would like to read SF about outlaws who are heroes. =A0Perhaps a futuri=
>>
>stic update of Robin Hood.
>> Who is your favorite SF outlaw? =A0What moral justification do they have =
>for breaking the law?
>
>I believe the story you want is Harry Harrison's _The Stainless Steel Rat_
That was what first popped into my mind, as well. However, it depends upon
>I believe the story you want is Harry Harrison's _The Stainless Steel Rat_
how much the OP really wants that Robin Hood thing. DiGriz isn't really
into asset redistribution, except when it benefits him.
To address the OP's ultimate question, DiGriz's justification goes along
the lines of: "When I commit a big theft, it give the police an excuse to
use all that equipment that the taxpayers bought them, as well as some
much-needed exercise. Newspapers and other media outlets have exciting
stories to publish, so it helps them, as well as bringing some interest
to the generally bucolic (if not outright bovine) lives of the citizens
of this planet. The company that I rip off is insured, so it's not
harmed. The insurance company has to pay off on the policy, but they've
built that into their rates already, so if nobody stole anything, they
(the insurance company) would be the theives. So, I'm a net public
benefactor. And get rich in the process."
> --- read them in publication order.
certainly see a case for sticking with the original three.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
Konrad Gaertner
Dec 17, 2012, 4:08:14 PM12/17/12
to
Michael Stemper wrote:
>
> In article <be037b0c-025c-40d1...@h5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, "William F. Adams" <will...@aol.com> writes:
> >On Dec 14, 10:27=A0pm, Al Lal <alal112...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I would like to read SF about outlaws who are heroes. =A0Perhaps a futuri=
> >stic update of Robin Hood.
>
> >> Who is your favorite SF outlaw? =A0What moral justification do they have =
> >for breaking the law?
> >
> >I believe the story you want is Harry Harrison's _The Stainless Steel Rat_
>
> That was what first popped into my mind, as well. However, it depends upon
> how much the OP really wants that Robin Hood thing. DiGriz isn't really
> into asset redistribution, except when it benefits him.
I just realized no one has mentioned Trent the Uncatchable yet. Read
>
> In article <be037b0c-025c-40d1...@h5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, "William F. Adams" <will...@aol.com> writes:
> >On Dec 14, 10:27=A0pm, Al Lal <alal112...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I would like to read SF about outlaws who are heroes. =A0Perhaps a futuri=
> >stic update of Robin Hood.
>
> >> Who is your favorite SF outlaw? =A0What moral justification do they have =
> >for breaking the law?
> >
> >I believe the story you want is Harry Harrison's _The Stainless Steel Rat_
>
> That was what first popped into my mind, as well. However, it depends upon
> how much the OP really wants that Robin Hood thing. DiGriz isn't really
> into asset redistribution, except when it benefits him.
_The Long Run_ (by Daniel Keys Moran) first, even though its not
really the first book of the series.
Wayne Throop
Dec 17, 2012, 4:20:02 PM12/17/12
to
: Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com>
: I just realized no one has mentioned Trent the Uncatchable yet. Read
I think it was the one I read first.
: I just realized no one has mentioned Trent the Uncatchable yet. Read
: _The Long Run_ (by Daniel Keys Moran) first, even though its not
: really the first book of the series.
It may well be the *best* book in the series.
: really the first book of the series.
I think it was the one I read first.
Wayne Throop
Dec 17, 2012, 4:21:57 PM12/17/12
to
: mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper)
: Read the first three or five, and then stop. I go for five, but I can
List of Gifts for Dad'n'Lad"?
: Read the first three or five, and then stop. I go for five, but I can
: certainly see a case for sticking with the original three.
So I shouldn't continue all the way to "The Stainless Steel Rat's
List of Gifts for Dad'n'Lad"?
Michael Stemper
Dec 17, 2012, 5:06:29 PM12/17/12
to
a Dead Horse_. In fact you might even give _The Stainless Steel Rat and
Empire_ a miss.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Fruit flies like a banana.
William December Starr
Dec 18, 2012, 3:04:37 PM12/18/12
to
In article <2012...@crcomp.net>,
Don Kuenz <gar...@crcomp.net> said:
> _An Enemy of the State_
(by F. Paul Wilson)
> (spoilers)
(Sorry for quoting the entire excerpt that Don provided, but the
part that I want to comment on is at the very end and I think it
needs its context.)
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> THE ROBIN HOOD READER
> Volume 1 Number 1
>
> Look to the Skies!
> A TAX REFUND IS COMING
>
> Look to the Skies!
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "What are These things?"
>
> "Flyers. Nobody seems to know where they came from but
> they're all over the city. I thought they'd amuse you."
> After Metep had the courtesy of first look. Haworth
> passed other copies of the flyer across the table to the
> rest of the Council of Five. The mood around the table had
> relaxed considerably since Metep's outburst. Expressions of
> deep concern for his safety had mollified the leader and it
> was deeded to lower further his already low public profile.
>
> "Robin Hood, eh?" Kragar said, smiling sardonically as he
> glanced over the flyer. He Looked to Haworth. "Wasn't he...?"
>
> "An old Earth myth, right," Haworth replied with a nod. "He
> robbed from the rich and gave to the poor."
>
> "I wonder which of the rich he plans to rob?"
>
> "Not me, I hope," Bede the slim Minister of Transportation,
> said with a laugh."
>
> ...
>
> He looked back to Metep VII, ready to frame a graceful a
> graceful concession, and noticed a puzzled expression on
> the leader's face. He was, holding the two sheets of paper
> - the mark note in his left hand, *The Robin Hood Reader* in
> his right - staring at them, rubbing his thumbs over the
> surface of each.
>
> "Something wrong, Jek?" Haworth asked.
>
> The Metep raised each sheet in turn to his nose and sniffed.
> "Have there been any thefts of currency paper?" he asked,
> looking up and fixing Krager with his stare.
>
> "No, of course not. We guard the blank paper as well as we
> guard the printed slips."
>
> "This flyer is printed on currency paper," Merep VII stated.
>
> "Impossible!" Krager, who was Minister of the Treasury,
> reached for one of the flyers on the table. He rubbed it,
> sniffed it, held it up to gauge the glare of light off its
> surface.
>
> "Well?"
>
> The old man nodded and leaned back in his form-fitting chair,
> a dumbfounded expression troubling his features. "It's
> currency paper all right."
>
> Nothing was said for a long time. All present now realized
> that the author of the flyer that had been so easily
> dismissed earlier in the meeting was no fevered radical
> swearing in a filthy basement somewhere in Primus City, but
> rather a man or a group of men who could steal currency paper
> without anyone knowing. And who showed utter disdain for the
> Imperial mark.
Wow, talk about aggravated "Don't show, tell." That entire long
last sentence should have ended up on the cutting-room floor, with
extreme prejudice.
-- wds
Don Kuenz <gar...@crcomp.net> said:
> _An Enemy of the State_
(by F. Paul Wilson)
> (spoilers)
(Sorry for quoting the entire excerpt that Don provided, but the
part that I want to comment on is at the very end and I think it
needs its context.)
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> THE ROBIN HOOD READER
> Volume 1 Number 1
>
> Look to the Skies!
> A TAX REFUND IS COMING
>
> Look to the Skies!
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "What are These things?"
>
> "Flyers. Nobody seems to know where they came from but
> they're all over the city. I thought they'd amuse you."
> After Metep had the courtesy of first look. Haworth
> passed other copies of the flyer across the table to the
> rest of the Council of Five. The mood around the table had
> relaxed considerably since Metep's outburst. Expressions of
> deep concern for his safety had mollified the leader and it
> was deeded to lower further his already low public profile.
>
> "Robin Hood, eh?" Kragar said, smiling sardonically as he
> glanced over the flyer. He Looked to Haworth. "Wasn't he...?"
>
> "An old Earth myth, right," Haworth replied with a nod. "He
> robbed from the rich and gave to the poor."
>
> "I wonder which of the rich he plans to rob?"
>
> "Not me, I hope," Bede the slim Minister of Transportation,
> said with a laugh."
>
> ...
>
> He looked back to Metep VII, ready to frame a graceful a
> graceful concession, and noticed a puzzled expression on
> the leader's face. He was, holding the two sheets of paper
> - the mark note in his left hand, *The Robin Hood Reader* in
> his right - staring at them, rubbing his thumbs over the
> surface of each.
>
> "Something wrong, Jek?" Haworth asked.
>
> The Metep raised each sheet in turn to his nose and sniffed.
> "Have there been any thefts of currency paper?" he asked,
> looking up and fixing Krager with his stare.
>
> "No, of course not. We guard the blank paper as well as we
> guard the printed slips."
>
> "This flyer is printed on currency paper," Merep VII stated.
>
> "Impossible!" Krager, who was Minister of the Treasury,
> reached for one of the flyers on the table. He rubbed it,
> sniffed it, held it up to gauge the glare of light off its
> surface.
>
> "Well?"
>
> The old man nodded and leaned back in his form-fitting chair,
> a dumbfounded expression troubling his features. "It's
> currency paper all right."
>
> Nothing was said for a long time. All present now realized
> that the author of the flyer that had been so easily
> dismissed earlier in the meeting was no fevered radical
> swearing in a filthy basement somewhere in Primus City, but
> rather a man or a group of men who could steal currency paper
> without anyone knowing. And who showed utter disdain for the
> Imperial mark.
Wow, talk about aggravated "Don't show, tell." That entire long
last sentence should have ended up on the cutting-room floor, with
extreme prejudice.
-- wds
William December Starr
Dec 18, 2012, 3:11:12 PM12/18/12
to
In article <a91edb21-40cd-4551...@googlegroups.com>,
("I've heard of the habitual criminal of course," Prosker said
pleasantly, "but this may be the first instance in the history
of the world of a habitual crime.")
-- wds
PeterM <peterme...@gmail.com> said:
> My favorite fictional print thieves are the Dortmunder
> gang in Donald Westlake's series of novels. They're
> not science fiction, but they're well worth reading.
> I'd start with the first one, The Hot Rock, in which
> they have to steal the same emerald six or seven times.
Oh yes, absolutely seconded. Westlake was a god.
> My favorite fictional print thieves are the Dortmunder
> gang in Donald Westlake's series of novels. They're
> not science fiction, but they're well worth reading.
> I'd start with the first one, The Hot Rock, in which
> they have to steal the same emerald six or seven times.
("I've heard of the habitual criminal of course," Prosker said
pleasantly, "but this may be the first instance in the history
of the world of a habitual crime.")
-- wds
William December Starr
Dec 18, 2012, 3:15:22 PM12/18/12
to
In article <fd829f69-54eb-47f4...@googlegroups.com>,
"Fanservice model"? Why not just say "female character"?
-- wds
-- wds
Kurt Busiek
Dec 18, 2012, 3:30:17 PM12/18/12
to
sexually-objectified character like the Black Cat as a "fanservice
movel," or as a claim that virtually all female characters in comics
are presented that way.
Both readings have a certain value, along with certain faults...
William December Starr
Dec 18, 2012, 3:41:03 PM12/18/12
to
In article <kaqjop$cv6$1...@dont-email.me>,
The intent was the latter, and yes, I'm aware of the (mostly
broad-brush-related) faults. I'd actually added a smiley to
indicate tongue-in-cheekedness, but then deleted it because I worry
that using smileys after saying something (allegedly) funny is too
much like laughing loudly at a joke that you yourself have just told.
-- wds
broad-brush-related) faults. I'd actually added a smiley to
indicate tongue-in-cheekedness, but then deleted it because I worry
that using smileys after saying something (allegedly) funny is too
much like laughing loudly at a joke that you yourself have just told.
-- wds
Robert Carnegie
Dec 18, 2012, 6:52:46 PM12/18/12
to
On Tuesday, 18 December 2012 20:30:17 UTC, Kurt Busiek wrote:
> On 2012-12-18 20:15:22 +0000, wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>
> > In article <fd829f69-54eb-47f4...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> said:
> >
> >> The Black Cat is a
> >> fanservice model with luck as a superpower and a relaxed attitude
> >> to sanity.
> >
> > "Fanservice model"? Why not just say "female character"?
>
> This can be read as either an objection to describing a
> sexually-objectified character like the Black Cat as a "fanservice
> model," or as a claim that virtually all female characters in comics
> On 2012-12-18 20:15:22 +0000, wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>
> > In article <fd829f69-54eb-47f4...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> said:
> >
> >> The Black Cat is a
> >> fanservice model with luck as a superpower and a relaxed attitude
> >> to sanity.
> >
> > "Fanservice model"? Why not just say "female character"?
>
> This can be read as either an objection to describing a
> sexually-objectified character like the Black Cat as a "fanservice
> are presented that way.
>
> Both readings have a certain value, along with certain faults...
I was exaggerating anyway - somewhat. And after Kevin Smith, she's a
>
> Both readings have a certain value, along with certain faults...
college rape survivor. I think that increases the uncoolness of
readers objectifying her. As does the mental health question.
Having said that: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Cat_%28comics%29>
There /are/ plenty of damn fine looking superhero/villain women in
the comics.
Don Kuenz
Dec 18, 2012, 9:01:25 PM12/18/12
to
both the top and bottom, "bookended," so to speak, by shorter
sentences. Presumably that arrangement entitles it to function as a
full-blown stand-alone paragraph instead of a run-on sentence
impersonating a paragraph. ROFL.
--
Don Kuenz
William December Starr
Dec 18, 2012, 10:34:16 PM12/18/12
to
sentence. That -- what's actually the last two sentences -- is what
needs to go.
-- wds
David DeLaney
Dec 19, 2012, 12:24:13 AM12/19/12
to
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
Dave, alas
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
Dec 19, 2012, 12:28:02 AM12/19/12
to
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>There /are/ plenty of damn fine looking superhero/villain women in
>the comics.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower
>There /are/ plenty of damn fine looking superhero/villain women in
>the comics.
Dave, the usual warnings apply, plus there's a collage at the top
Gene Wirchenko
Dec 19, 2012, 9:21:13 PM12/19/12
to
On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 15:52:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
[snip]
>There /are/ plenty of damn fine looking superhero/villain women in
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the comics.
You mean top-heavy?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
[snip]
>There /are/ plenty of damn fine looking superhero/villain women in
>the comics.
You mean top-heavy?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Dec 19, 2012, 9:24:01 PM12/19/12
to
On 12/19/12 9:21 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 15:52:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> There /are/ plenty of damn fine looking superhero/villain women in
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> the comics.
>
> You mean top-heavy?
Heavy? They seem extremely light, holding up magnificently even.
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 15:52:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> There /are/ plenty of damn fine looking superhero/villain women in
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> the comics.
>
> You mean top-heavy?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Robert Carnegie
Dec 19, 2012, 10:14:05 PM12/19/12
to
On Thursday, 20 December 2012 02:21:13 UTC, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 15:52:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >There /are/ plenty of damn fine looking superhero/villain women in
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >the comics.
>
> You mean top-heavy?
It's true, but that isn't what I meant.
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 15:52:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >There /are/ plenty of damn fine looking superhero/villain women in
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >the comics.
>
> You mean top-heavy?
The centre of mass may be lower and no harm done, for instance, although
it rarely is.
Ma Hunkel has more than most above and below.
William December Starr
Dec 22, 2012, 3:57:46 PM12/22/12
to
In article <slrnkd2i0...@gatekeeper.vic.com>,
-- wds
d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower
>
> Dave, the usual warnings apply, plus there's a collage at the top
And indeed, where else would it be?
> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower
>
> Dave, the usual warnings apply, plus there's a collage at the top
-- wds
Butch Malahide
Dec 22, 2012, 5:53:08 PM12/22/12
to
On Dec 18, 5:52 pm, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 18 December 2012 20:30:17 UTC, Kurt Busiek wrote:
> On Tuesday, 18 December 2012 20:30:17 UTC, Kurt Busiek wrote:
> > On 2012-12-18 20:15:22 +0000, wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>
> > > In article <fd829f69-54eb-47f4...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > In article <fd829f69-54eb-47f4...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> said:
>
> > >> The Black Cat is a
> > >> fanservice model with luck as a superpower and a relaxed attitude
> > >> to sanity.
>
> > > "Fanservice model"? Why not just say "female character"?
>
> > This can be read as either an objection to describing a
> > sexually-objectified character like the Black Cat as a "fanservice
> > model," or as a claim that virtually all female characters in comics
> > are presented that way.
>
> > Both readings have a certain value, along with certain faults...
>
> I was exaggerating anyway - somewhat. And after Kevin Smith, she's a
> college rape survivor. I think that increases the uncoolness of
> readers objectifying her. As does the mental health question.
> Having said that: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Cat_%28comics%29>
>
> There /are/ plenty of damn fine looking superhero/villain women in
> the comics.
You remind me of Futura/Marcia Reynolds, kickass secretary in space:
>
> > >> The Black Cat is a
> > >> fanservice model with luck as a superpower and a relaxed attitude
> > >> to sanity.
>
> > > "Fanservice model"? Why not just say "female character"?
>
> > This can be read as either an objection to describing a
> > sexually-objectified character like the Black Cat as a "fanservice
> > model," or as a claim that virtually all female characters in comics
> > are presented that way.
>
> > Both readings have a certain value, along with certain faults...
>
> I was exaggerating anyway - somewhat. And after Kevin Smith, she's a
> college rape survivor. I think that increases the uncoolness of
> readers objectifying her. As does the mental health question.
> Having said that: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Cat_%28comics%29>
>
> There /are/ plenty of damn fine looking superhero/villain women in
> the comics.
no superpowers, but probably the best looking heroine of Golden Age
comic books. Mary Marvel (original version), on the other hand, looked
like the superheroine next door. I'm not sure what age she was
supposed to be, maybe 15 or 16?
Kip Williams
Dec 22, 2012, 7:09:20 PM12/22/12
to
Butch Malahide wrote, On 12/22/12 5:53 PM:
> You remind me of Futura/Marcia Reynolds, kickass secretary in space:
> no superpowers, but probably the best looking heroine of Golden Age
> comic books. Mary Marvel (original version), on the other hand, looked
> like the superheroine next door. I'm not sure what age she was
> supposed to be, maybe 15 or 16?
There was also Aunt Fanny Marvel, much beloved of the artists, who wore
boots and a cape. She never appeared in the printed comics, probably
because those were all.
[Source: The Steranko History of Comics]
Kip W
> You remind me of Futura/Marcia Reynolds, kickass secretary in space:
> no superpowers, but probably the best looking heroine of Golden Age
> comic books. Mary Marvel (original version), on the other hand, looked
> like the superheroine next door. I'm not sure what age she was
> supposed to be, maybe 15 or 16?
boots and a cape. She never appeared in the printed comics, probably
because those were all.
[Source: The Steranko History of Comics]
Kip W
David DeLaney
Dec 22, 2012, 8:21:35 PM12/22/12
to
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
>> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower
>>
>> Dave, the usual warnings apply, plus there's a collage at the top
>
>And indeed, where else would it be?
No no, that's a _corsage_. Or possibly a decolletage.
>> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower
>>
>> Dave, the usual warnings apply, plus there's a collage at the top
>
>And indeed, where else would it be?
Dave, baby cribbage?
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