Clark story - can someone clarify a point about its title?
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk
Is the title not semantically equivalent to "Mr. Herbert George Morley
Roberts Wells"? Or are there finer points to the use of ", Esq." suffix?
Thanks.
Dorothy J Heydt
If used merely as the equivalent of "Mr.", it's archaic. It does
have another use (also fairly archaic) as the appended title of a
lawyer. It used ... this is centuries ago ... to mean someone
who was "gentry" but not nobility, a rich landowner who could
afford to send his sons to Oxbridge and his daughters to be
presented at Court, but without a title. Think of Squire
Trelawney. Before that, a squire (or esquire) was a knight's
assistant, a knight-in-training. I think, though I'd have to
look it up to be sure, that the term comes from French <esqueyer>
or <e^queyer> or something like that, meaning a shieldbearer.
So I'm inclined to think the purpose of phrasing the title like
that was to give the impression of archaic, or at least
Victorian, language.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Mike Schilling
"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:Jo35x...@kithrup.com...
> Think of Squire Trelawney.
I haven't thought of him for years, but he's about as dim as his namesake
the professor, isn't he?
Dan Goodman
It has different connotations. Sounds a bit stuffy.
--
Dan Goodman
"You, each of you, have some special wild cards. Play with them.
Find out what makes you different and better. Because it is there,
if only you can find it." Vernor Vinge, _Rainbows End_
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Matthias Warkus
> In article <fbvuek$9l8$1...@aioe.org>, <tkma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> Story titled "Herbert George Morley Roberts Wells, Esq.".
>>
>> Is the title not semantically equivalent to "Mr. Herbert George Morley
>> Roberts Wells"? Or are there finer points to the use of ", Esq." suffix?
>
> If used merely as the equivalent of "Mr.", it's archaic. It does
> have another use (also fairly archaic) as the appended title of a
> lawyer. It used ... this is centuries ago ... to mean someone
> who was "gentry" but not nobility, a rich landowner who could
> afford to send his sons to Oxbridge and his daughters to be
> presented at Court, but without a title. Think of Squire
> Trelawney. Before that, a squire (or esquire) was a knight's
> assistant, a knight-in-training. I think, though I'd have to
> look it up to be sure, that the term comes from French <esqueyer>
> or <e^queyer> or something like that, meaning a shieldbearer.
écuyer, ère n. - escuier 1080 ; bas latin scutarius, de scutum -> 1 écu
* 1 n. m. ANCIENNT Gentilhomme au service d'un chevalier
(Petit Robert 2007)
It doesn't give "shieldbearer" as a meaning for the French word, though
that's what "scutarius" means.
mawa
--
http://www.prellblog.de
Gene Ward Smith
> If used merely as the equivalent of "Mr.", it's archaic. It does
> have another use (also fairly archaic) as the appended title of a
> lawyer.
In that second sense it is still in common though hardly universal use.
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk
Thanks all. That was some education for me.
The title refers to H G Wells, the classical sf author. Any idea in
which sense it might apply to him? Story text didn't clarify.
Anthony Frost
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> tkma...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > Story titled "Herbert George Morley Roberts Wells, Esq.".
> >
> > Is the title not semantically equivalent to "Mr. Herbert George Morley
> > Roberts Wells"? Or are there finer points to the use of ", Esq." suffix?
> Thanks all. That was some education for me.
>
> The title refers to H G Wells, the classical sf author. Any idea in
> which sense it might apply to him? Story text didn't clarify.
In this case it looks like the standard English use for addressing a
respected individual. An individual would never apply it to themself,
you'd never sign a letter as "Fred Bloggs Esq." unless you /wanted/ to
be thought of as an ignorant jumped up social climber, but others would
address letters to "Fred Bloggs Esq." if they thought he was deserving.
Anthony
Sean O'Hara
declared:
> you'd never sign a letter as "Fred Bloggs Esq." unless you /wanted/ to
> be thought of as an ignorant jumped up social climber,
Not a fan of Wyld Stalyns?
--
Sean O'Hara <http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com>
Jeff: She's leaving the country, she doesn't speak English, I
insulted her friend's breasts...and she thinks I collect women's
ears in a bucket.
-Coupling
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk
Thank you, Anthony.
Anthony Frost
Sean O'Hara <sean...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In the Year of the Golden Pig, the Great and Powerful Anthony Frost
> declared:
> > you'd never sign a letter as "Fred Bloggs Esq." unless you /wanted/ to
> > be thought of as an ignorant jumped up social climber,
>
> Not a fan of Wyld Stalyns?
Ah, but they're American so the base assumption is already a given. :-)
Anthony
Brion K. Lienhart
Obi-Wan: "Mos-Eisley Spaceport, you'll never find a more wretched hive
of scum and villainy."
Bill & Ted: "Party On!" (air guitar duet)
John M. Gamble
It might apply to Morley Roberts, instead of Wells. I think there might
have been a few comments on it (before the inevitable thread drift) in the
"Pre-Plagerism" thread.
--
-john
February 28 1997: Last day libraries could order catalogue cards
from the Library of Congress.
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk
> In article <fc10tg$455$1...@aioe.org>, <tkma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> tkma...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> Story titled "Herbert George Morley Roberts Wells, Esq.".
>>>
>>> Is the title not semantically equivalent to "Mr. Herbert George Morley
>>> Roberts Wells"? Or are there finer points to the use of ", Esq." suffix?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>> Thanks all. That was some education for me.
>>
>> The title refers to H G Wells, the classical sf author. Any idea in
>> which sense it might apply to him? Story text didn't clarify.
>
> It might apply to Morley Roberts, instead of Wells. I think there might
> have been a few comments on it (before the inevitable thread drift) in the
> "Pre-Plagerism" thread.
All through, there is strong association of Anticipator with Wells -
even after learning Roberts as author. And narrator doesn't wish to
learn if Roberts was found dead in a dark alley... Also since Wells gets
the beginning & end of story title, I assume it is Wells that is
referred to.
Google group search cannot locate the thread you refer to - neither on
"Morley Roberts" nor "Pre Plagiarism" nor Anticipator. "Plagiarism"
itself returns too many messages to be useful.
John M. Gamble
>John M. Gamble wrote:
>> In article <fc10tg$455$1...@aioe.org>, <tkma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> tkma...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>> Story titled "Herbert George Morley Roberts Wells, Esq.".
>>>>
>>>> Is the title not semantically equivalent to "Mr. Herbert George Morley
>>>> Roberts Wells"? Or are there finer points to the use of ", Esq." suffix?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>> Thanks all. That was some education for me.
>>>
>>> The title refers to H G Wells, the classical sf author. Any idea in
>>> which sense it might apply to him? Story text didn't clarify.
>>
>> It might apply to Morley Roberts, instead of Wells. I think there might
>> have been a few comments on it (before the inevitable thread drift) in the
>> "Pre-Plagerism" thread.
>
>
>All through, there is strong association of Anticipator with Wells -
>even after learning Roberts as author. And narrator doesn't wish to
Hmm, your use of "narrator" seems to indicate that you think this is
a work of fiction. It's actually the essay Clarke wrote about "The
Longest Science-Fiction Story Ever Told" after he found that he
had mixed up the authors.
>learn if Roberts was found dead in a dark alley... Also since Wells gets
>the beginning & end of story title, I assume it is Wells that is
>referred to.
>
>Google group search cannot locate the thread you refer to - neither on
>"Morley Roberts" nor "Pre Plagiarism" nor Anticipator. "Plagiarism"
Odd. "Pre Plagiarism" took me right to the messages, clicking on any
one of them took me to the thread. Here:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/36ca42e21ad111e6>
>itself returns too many messages to be useful.
D.F. Manno
Anthony Frost <Vu...@vulch.org> wrote:
> An individual would never apply it to themself,
> you'd never sign a letter as "Fred Bloggs Esq." unless you /wanted/ to
> be thought of as an ignorant jumped up social climber
Or unless you're a lawyer in the U.S.
--
D.F. Manno | dfm...@mail.com
The America I believe in does not torture people.
The America I believe in does not run secret prisons.
The America I believe in would shut down Guantanamo Bay.
(Amnesty International USA)
Keith F. Lynch
> If used merely as the equivalent of "Mr.", it's archaic. It does
> have another use (also fairly archaic) as the appended title of a
> lawyer.
The latter is still current. At work, where I proofread legal
transcripts, our style guide says that anyone who's a lawyer must
be listed on the appearances page with "ESQUIRE" after their name.
This is an annoyance, as it sometimes takes several minutes to figure
out if someone is a lawyer or not.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Simon Slavin
> In article <fbvuek$9l8$1...@aioe.org>, <tkma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >Story titled "Herbert George Morley Roberts Wells, Esq.".
> >
> >Is the title not semantically equivalent to "Mr. Herbert George Morley
> >Roberts Wells"? Or are there finer points to the use of ", Esq." suffix?
>
> If used merely as the equivalent of "Mr.", it's archaic.
From about 1880 to the time the term fell out of usage -- call it 1965.
The most recent use of the term in England was to distinguish a house-owner from everyone else. So if you owned the house you lived in you were 'John Smith, Esquire'. If you rented, or were a vagrant, you weren't. The social pointer here is that if you have a house, you probably have a steady income, a disposable income, and are a good credit risk. A shopkeeper would open an account for you; a bank manager would be more eager to lend you money. You would probably employ at least one servant. Policemen would treat you with a bit more respect.
This is the use of the term as applied to Wells, and it's mostly a bit of crawling from the locals, hoping that if they grovel enough he'll buy stuff from them.
Before then the term referred to the larger sort of land owner, probably someone who owned at least a couple of acres. They'd be the lowest rung of the gentry, able to pay taxes of some sort, and someone who the local baron or earl could use to keep an eye on the local population. The next rung up would be someone with a decent household who could be relied upon to provide one or two people to fight for the King should need arise.
Before then it referred only to people who had a land grant from the local ruler (prince, baron, earl, etc.) since the local ruler owned all land and would fight anyone who claimed differently.
Simon.
--
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk
>> All through, there is strong association of Anticipator with Wells -
>> even after learning Roberts as author. And narrator doesn't wish to
>
> Hmm, your use of "narrator" seems to indicate that you think this is
> a work of fiction. It's actually the essay Clarke wrote about "The
> Longest Science-Fiction Story Ever Told" after he found that he
> had mixed up the authors.
story. Thanks for information.
>> Google group search cannot locate the thread you refer to - neither on
>> "Morley Roberts" nor "Pre Plagiarism" nor Anticipator. "Plagiarism"
>
> Odd. "Pre Plagiarism" took me right to the messages, clicking on any
> one of them took me to the thread. Here:
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/36ca42e21ad111e6>
It seems to return thread too now - 60+ messages - I wonder what
happened yesterday. Thanks. Does rest of thread contain relevant info
(I've seen the specific msg whose URL you provide above)?
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk
Very interesting information. Thanks.
Michael Stemper
>In article <189dae1f4f%Vu...@kerrier.vulch.org>, Anthony Frost <Vu...@vulch.org> wrote:
>> An individual would never apply it to themself,
>> you'd never sign a letter as "Fred Bloggs Esq." unless you /wanted/ to
>> be thought of as an ignorant jumped up social climber
>
>Or unless you're a lawyer in the U.S.
Subset.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
John M. Gamble
>John M. Gamble wrote:
>>> All through, there is strong association of Anticipator with Wells -
>>> even after learning Roberts as author. And narrator doesn't wish to
>>
>> Hmm, your use of "narrator" seems to indicate that you think this is
>> a work of fiction. It's actually the essay Clarke wrote about "The
>> Longest Science-Fiction Story Ever Told" after he found that he
>> had mixed up the authors.
>Are you sure about the essay rather than story? Tone is generally of a
>story. Thanks for information.
Clarke has only one tone (this is not a criticism), so that's hardly
surprising. Yeah, it's a short little piece about his memory lapse
and what he learned looking stuff up, with an amusing closing sentence.
>
>It seems to return thread too now - 60+ messages - I wonder what
>happened yesterday. Thanks. Does rest of thread contain relevant info
>(I've seen the specific msg whose URL you provide above)?
>
Well, it drifts, as all threads do. Read the first few, then bail
out if it doesn't hold your interest.