Quatre: Acceptable Bigotries
James Nicoll
rant from the protagonists about how awful the French are. What made
this notable is that aside from that rant, there are no French people
in the book and France plays no role in the plot. French-bashing seems
to be roughly where Jew-bashing was 100 years ago (with the marked
difference that France has the Force de frappe whereas the Jews
of 1908 didn't), completely acceptable as a way to fill otherwise
blank pages [1].
In fact, I am a bit surprised that no publisher has ever
thought to indicate on their SF books [2] that their books contain
French-bashing. I am pretty sure that there are enough such books
to support an entire line (from Simmon's Eurabian Frenchies to
Stirling's perfidious Froggies, who insist on acting like they're
from a real nation) and I am utterly certain the line would be
popular.
Oddly, despite the Auld Alliance (1295 - 1560) and other
Franco-Scottish ties, the rascally Caledonians never seem to be
included in with the French, not even the Catholic Scots.
On a related note, I was a bit surprised when in a fantasy
novel that I was reading a few weeks ago, the head of a vast and
powerful Church turned out not to an entirely bad fellow (although
he wasn't as good at not being deposed and murdered as he might
have been) and the Church's magical systems turned out to be on
a firmer theoretical basis than the secularist models, at least
judging by results. I can't think of the last time I read a fantasy
with a monolithic Psuedo-Catholic church where it was presented as
anything but a collection of perverts and power-mad fanatics [3]
foisting lies on a gullible population.
1: Or replies to this post.
2: Fantasy tends to have fewer real world nations than SF (and the
French in the Temeraire books aren't awful people, just the traditional
enemy of Britain). I guess EVER AFER (That's the one where Leonardo
is the fairy god-mother figure, right?) might count as an example.
3: I'm not going to count the crime-fighting priest book I finished a
while back, because it wasn't marketed as fantasy, it wasn't about a
thinly disguised Catholic church but the real one and also a lot of
it was driven by corrupt internal power struggles in the American part
of the Catholic Church (And as I recall, the priest is about as bent
as everyone else he runs into, although I don't think he'd see it
that way).
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Gene Ward Smith
> One of the books that I finished last week included a long
> rant from the protagonists about how awful the French are. What made
> this notable is that aside from that rant, there are no French people
> in the book and France plays no role in the plot.
I've seen that done for comic effect. After a particularly horrible
atrocity (in Survivor in Death), Eve Dallas interviews a neighbor:
"I know who killed those people."
"Who killed them?"
"The French."
"How do you know that, Mrs. Grentz?"
"Because they're French. ... If someone was murdered in their own bed,
it was the French who did it. You can take that to the bank."
...
"Did you hear someone speaking French on the night of the murders?"
At Peabody's question, Eve sent her a pitying look.
"You don't here them, girl. Quiet as snakes, that's the French."
> On a related note, I was a bit surprised when in a fantasy
> novel that I was reading a few weeks ago, the head of a vast and
> powerful Church turned out not to an entirely bad fellow (although
> he wasn't as good at not being deposed and murdered as he might
> have been) and the Church's magical systems turned out to be on
> a firmer theoretical basis than the secularist models, at least
> judging by results. I can't think of the last time I read a fantasy
> with a monolithic Psuedo-Catholic church where it was presented as
> anything but a collection of perverts and power-mad fanatics [3]
> foisting lies on a gullible population.
> 3: I'm not going to count the crime-fighting priest book I finished a
> while back, because it wasn't marketed as fantasy, it wasn't about a
> thinly disguised Catholic church but the real one and also a lot of
> it was driven by corrupt internal power struggles in the American part
> of the Catholic Church (And as I recall, the priest is about as bent
> as everyone else he runs into, although I don't think he'd see it
> that way).
You should attach names to these descriptions. If the crime-fighting
priest was a vigilante, we could have a winner.
Konrad Gaertner
>
> One of the books that I finished last week included a long
> rant from the protagonists about how awful the French are. What made
> this notable is that aside from that rant, there are no French people
> in the book and France plays no role in the plot.
One of Rosenberg's Gaurdians of the Flame novels had a half page rant
about how stupid libertarians are, and it even admitted that they were
completely absent from that world.
--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: kgae...@tx.rr.com
http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/
"If I let myself get hung up on only doing things that had any actual
chance of success, I'd never do *anything*!" Elan, Order of the Stick
mimus
> On Dec 31, 11:19 am, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> One of the books that I finished last week included a long
>> rant from the protagonists about how awful the French are. What made
>> this notable is that aside from that rant, there are no French people
>> in the book and France plays no role in the plot.
>
> I've seen that done for comic effect. After a particularly horrible
> atrocity (in Survivor in Death), Eve Dallas interviews a neighbor:
>
> "I know who killed those people."
> "Who killed them?"
> "The French."
> "How do you know that, Mrs. Grentz?"
> "Because they're French. ... If someone was murdered in their own bed,
> it was the French who did it. You can take that to the bank."
> ...
>
> "Did you hear someone speaking French on the night of the murders?"
>
> At Peabody's question, Eve sent her a pitying look.
>
> "You don't here them, girl. Quiet as snakes, that's the French."
Anyone who hasn't read Gregory of Tours should.
It all started there, and one must say that, in a sense, they had nowhere
to go but up . . . .
Not that Bishop Gregory had much to brag about by comparison-- his relish
in the goings-on amongst the Frankish "aristocracy" is matched only by his
reticence concerning what led to the "Great Persecution" and his glee at
opposing clerics' "expelling their bowels in their closets", which was
apparently the favored expression, at least as rendered in translation,
for, if not a literal description of, fatal poisonings.
>> On a related note, I was a bit surprised when in a fantasy
>> novel that I was reading a few weeks ago, the head of a vast and
>> powerful Church turned out not to an entirely bad fellow (although he
>> wasn't as good at not being deposed and murdered as he might have been)
>> and the Church's magical systems turned out to be on a firmer
>> theoretical basis than the secularist models, at least judging by
>> results. I can't think of the last time I read a fantasy with a
>> monolithic Psuedo-Catholic church where it was presented as anything
>> but a collection of perverts and power-mad fanatics [3] foisting lies
>> on a gullible population.
Hard to shake that one off, eh?
--
It's a plot it's a plot it's _Pavlovian conditioning!_
< _Gravity's Rainbow_
Robert Sneddon
<jdni...@panix.com> writes
> I can't think of the last time I read a fantasy
>with a monolithic Psuedo-Catholic church where it was presented as
>anything but a collection of perverts and power-mad fanatics [3]
>foisting lies on a gullible population.
The Darcy stories by Randall Garrett? No Black Protestantism in that
timeline, no rebellious Luther.
--
To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon
Tim McDaniel
Robert Sneddon <fr...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <flbfb8$ql$1...@reader2.panix.com>, James Nicoll
><jdni...@panix.com> writes
>
>> I can't think of the last time I read a fantasy
>>with a monolithic Psuedo-Catholic church where it was presented as
>>anything but a collection of perverts and power-mad fanatics [3]
>>foisting lies on a gullible population.
>
> The Darcy stories by Randall Garrett? No Black Protestantism in that
>timeline, no rebellious Luther.
No PSEUDO-Catholics either -- fails the precondition.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Jasper Janssen
Nicoll) wrote:
> I can't think of the last time I read a fantasy
>with a monolithic Psuedo-Catholic church where it was presented as
>anything but a collection of perverts and power-mad fanatics [3]
>foisting lies on a gullible population.
Keith Roberts, _Pavane_?
Jasper
Jasper Janssen
>Not that Bishop Gregory had much to brag about by comparison-- his relish
>in the goings-on amongst the Frankish "aristocracy" is matched only by his
>reticence concerning what led to the "Great Persecution" and his glee at
>opposing clerics' "expelling their bowels in their closets", which was
>apparently the favored expression, at least as rendered in translation,
>for, if not a literal description of, fatal poisonings.
Presumably not the clothes-closet, but the water-closet or at least the
non-water closet.
Jasper
Jasper Janssen
wrote:
>James Nicoll wrote:
>>
>> One of the books that I finished last week included a long
>> rant from the protagonists about how awful the French are. What made
>> this notable is that aside from that rant, there are no French people
>> in the book and France plays no role in the plot.
>
>One of Rosenberg's Gaurdians of the Flame novels had a half page rant
>about how stupid libertarians are, and it even admitted that they were
>completely absent from that world.
At least (as I understand the plot of that series[1]) you do have people
from our world there, who do know what libertarians are.
Jasper
[1] As far as I can tell the setup follows slavishly the introductory
leader of each of the episodes of the "Dungeons and Dragons" cartoon, and
from what little I've read, it doesn't rise much above the quality of
those plots for the rest of it, either.
mimus
Of course, of course.
--
It is usual on these occasions to make a great vapouring
about honour and conscience: but as those words are now
generally acknowledged to be utterly destitute of meaning,
I have too much respect for your understanding to say any
thing about them.
< Peacock
Konrad Gaertner
>
> On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:14:50 -0600, Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@tx.rr.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >One of Rosenberg's Gaurdians of the Flame novels had a half page rant
> >about how stupid libertarians are, and it even admitted that they were
> >completely absent from that world.
>
> At least (as I understand the plot of that series[1]) you do have people
> from our world there, who do know what libertarians are.
True, but there's still no reason to insult people who have no
effect on the story.
> [1] As far as I can tell the setup follows slavishly the introductory
> leader of each of the episodes of the "Dungeons and Dragons" cartoon, and
> from what little I've read, it doesn't rise much above the quality of
> those plots for the rest of it, either.
I'm not familiar with that cartoon, but the first several books
were pretty original in handling the "RPGers find themselves
inside their game world" premise.