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How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
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More options Apr 30 2012, 12:36 am
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 04:36:44 GMT
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 12:36 am
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
: You are fine,had you read what Huygens wrote that the 24 hour AM/PM
: cycle is an average of natural noon AM/PM you would have no difficulty
: with the idea that the Earth turns once in a day and the progression
: of average 24 hour days substitutes for constant rotation,a truly
: wonderful setup best appreciated through the Lat/Long system.

No, the lat/long system is best appreciated entirely independently
of the rotation of the earth, because it is a static grid laid *on*
the surface of the earth.  How the earth rotates is irrelevant, no
matter what the earth does, if you're standing on some specific line of
longitude, there you will stay no matter what the earth or clocks do.
It's static. The only reason it was ever associated with the rotation
of the earth (indirectly via timekeeping) is because they didn't have
radio or other simpler methods.  And even then, the complexity of the
lat/long system is *why* it is best appreciated entirely independently
of rotation and timekeeping.

"Can't keep my eyes from the circling sky..."      --- Pink Floyd

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More options Apr 30 2012, 1:41 am
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 22:41:54 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 1:41 am
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
On Apr 30, 5:36 am, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:

The pleasure of listening to John Harrison in a world that had largely
lost the ability to hear the principles of timekeeping and planetary
rotation up to recently but is now recovering,albeit slowly.There is
real satisfaction in living history yet there is so much more,I have
explained why the natural noon cycles vary along with the seasons
using two separate axes so that the daily and orbital motions can be
scrutinized separately or in combination and especially the totally
new explanation for why we experience the seasons.If people won't
listen to the man who actually created clocks based on the Lat/Long
system and the AM/PM cycles then there is not much I can do about that
other than to point out that the Earth does turn once in a 24 hour day
just as 2+2=4.

"The application of a Timekeeper to this discovery is founded upon the
following principles: the earth's surface is divided into 360 equal
parts (by imaginary lines drawn from North to South) which are called
Degrees of Longitude; and its daily revolution Eastward round its own
axis is performed in 24 hours; consequently in that period, each of
those imaginary lines or degrees, becomes successively opposite to the
Sun (which makes the noon or precise middle of the day at each of
those degrees;) and it must follow, that from the time any one of
those lines passes the Sun, till the next passes, must be just four
minutes, for 24 hours being divided by 360 will give that quantity; so
that for every degree of Longitude we sail Westward, it will be noon
with us four minutes the later, and for every degree Eastward four
minutes the sooner, and so on in proportion for any greater or less
quantity. Now, the exact time of the day at the place where we are,
can be ascertained by well known and easy observations of the Sun if
visible for a few minutes at any time from his being ten degrees high
until within an hour of noon, or from an hour after noon until he is
only 10 degrees high in the afternoon; if therefore, at any time when
such observation is made, a Timekeeper tells us at the same moment
what o'clock it is at the place we sailed from, our Longitude is
clearly discovered." John Harrison

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More options Apr 30 2012, 2:37 am
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 06:37:19 GMT
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 2:37 am
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
: The pleasure of listening to John Harrison in a world that had largely
: lost the ability to hear the principles of timekeeping and planetary
: rotation

Is as nothing compared to the delight attendant on your actually
answering simple yes-or-no questions with simple yes or no, rather
than rambling on vaguely and incoherently with interminable essays.

1) does the earth orbit the sun?
2) if so, then looking "down" at the north pole,
are both the earth's spin and it's orbit counterclockwise?
3) do stars return to the same point in the night sky
4) are there an integral number of days in four years?
5) does the moon rotate?
(from other vaguely worded posts, probably not,
but a simple yes or no would be more useful)

No followup arguments, no trick question, no nothing, just curious.
My only followup if you answered each question yes or no would be "thank you".

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More options Apr 30 2012, 3:07 am
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 00:07:55 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 3:07 am
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
On Apr 30, 7:37 am, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:

> : oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
> : The pleasure of listening to John Harrison in a world that had largely
> : lost the ability to hear the principles of timekeeping and planetary
> : rotation

> Is as nothing compared to the delight attendant on your actually
> answering simple yes-or-no questions with simple yes or no, rather
> than rambling on vaguely and incoherently with interminable essays.

You are part of a dystopian society,people who willingly immerse
themselves in a world where the Earth doesn't turn once in a day,the
moon spins,the Earth can turn 361 degrees,time travel and human
control over the planet's temperature is possible - a outwardly multi-
colored world of the cartoon and sci-fi.This is no fable,the collapse
of Western sciences in astronomy and terrestrial sciences cannot be
more obvious than in the inability to accept the astronomical
equivalent of 2+2=4,as the world's population sleeps and rises to
sunrise and sunset with a 24 hour day and one rotation of the planet.

It may be so shocking that a reasonable person refuses to accept the
technical evaluation that an establishment would knowingly propose
something as ridiculous as having rotations fall out of step with the
24 hour day but then again this is the same crowd that decided to
define a planet ,created the idea of 'dwarf' planet and now no student
can learn how many planets there are in the solar system.Is a dwarf
human separate to a human ?.

Truly,this is how you actually look,it is not an insult but the
nearest I can come to people willing to convince themselves that the
Earth can turn 361 degrees as they are impervious to any technical and
historical details and it is not directed at you personally but at
those who create a lifestyle at a University level on a pretense that
should shock people.

If a person can't understand that the Earth turns once in 24 hours
with all the effects in front of them then there is no point to
science any longer.

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More options Apr 30 2012, 5:02 am
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:02:19 GMT
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 5:02 am
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
: You are

someone who just wants you to state unambiguously a few simple facts.
You, on the other hand, are someone who keeps dodging simple questions.
It's almost as if... hey, if you don't *know* the answers, just say so.

1) does the earth orbit the sun?
2) if so, then looking "down" at the north pole,
are both the earth's spin and it's orbit counterclockwise?
3) do stars return to the same point in the night sky
4) are there an integral number of days in four years?
5) does the moon rotate?
(from other vaguely worded posts, probably not,
but a simple yes or no would be more useful)

No followup arguments, no trick question, no nothing, just curious.
My only followup if you answered each question yes or no would be "thank you".

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More options Apr 30 2012, 10:44 am
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: Nix <nix-razor-...@esperi.org.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 15:44:16 +0100
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 10:44 am
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
On 29 Apr 2012, Wayne Throop told this:

>: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
>: Any man with a pair of balls can work with the difference between the
>: variations in the natural noon AM/PM cycles and the 24 hour AM/PM
>: cycles but only if they can begin with the earth shattering fact that
>: one day on Earth is the same as one rotation -

> Yes, one rotation wrt the sun.  Nobody has ever said anything different.
> Is your claim that there *is* nothing else to guage earth's rotation against?
> Or better still, here is a suite of yes-or-no questions that would pin
> make your position a lit less vague and handwavy.

You forgot a question: "do the stars exist?". Some of his rambles make
me wonder if he has forgotten they are there.

--
NULL && (void)

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More options Apr 30 2012, 11:20 am
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 08:20:47 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 11:20 am
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
On Apr 30, 3:44 pm, Nix <nix-razor-...@esperi.org.uk> wrote:

Did you enjoy waking up today at sunrise ? - that would be one
rotation of the Earth,it is a remarkable thing that we can now see
from space as one single day passes,some see it as sunrise to sunrise
while others see it as sunset to sunset but it is one 24 hour day and
one rotation of the Earth -

These 24 hour days never diverge from one rotation and who would want
to apart from a bunch of intellectual rednecks stuck in the late 17th
century with an error they can do nothing with.Whatever else Starmaker
says,he is right that is is little more than schoolboys with
lifestyles or welfare cheats making a few dollars at the expense of
students and the wider population but whatever it is,what you rednecks
follow ain't and never will be science.

2+2=4 and the Earth can be seen turning once in 24 hours,anyone who
imagines otherwise is utterly stupid if they can't match that rotation
in the time lapse footage above from 8PM on Wednesday 28th May 2008 to
8PM on Thursday 29th 2008.There is no way one 24 hour day and one
rotation ever diverges and if video doesn't satisfy people then we are
in the middle of an intellectual holocaust as nothing is simpler or
more immediate than the daily effects of one rotation.

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More options Apr 30 2012, 12:35 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
Followup-To: sci.physics
From: Brett Dunbar <br...@dimetrodon.me.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:35:05 +0100
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 12:35 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
In message
oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> writes

>2+2=4 and the Earth can be seen turning once in 24 hours,anyone who
>imagines otherwise is utterly stupid if they can't match that rotation
>in the time lapse footage above from 8PM on Wednesday 28th May 2008 to
>8PM on Thursday 29th 2008.There is no way one 24 hour day and one
>rotation ever diverges and if video doesn't satisfy people then we are
>in the middle of an intellectual holocaust as nothing is simpler or
>more immediate than the daily effects of one rotation.

No one is disputing that the earth rotates in 24 hours relative to the
sun. What we are saying is that the earth rotates on its axis once in 23
hours 56 minutes.

You know that if the earth were not rotating the sun would rise (in the
west) and set (in the east) once a year.

If the earth were tidally locked to the sun the way the moon is to the
earth the earth would rotate once a year and the sun would neither rise
nor set.

From this you can see that the number of times the sun rises and set is
always one different from the number of times the earth rotates in a
year.

One question: If the earth were not orbiting the sun, how long would it
take the sun to return to the same point in the sky?
--
Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm
Livejournal http://brett-dunbar.livejournal.com/
Brett Dunbar

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More options Apr 30 2012, 1:31 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:31:41 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 1:31 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
[Followups to rec.arts.sf.written]

In article <87ehr5xosf....@spindle.srvr.nix>, Nix <nix-razor-...@esperi.org.uk> writes:
>On 29 Apr 2012, Wayne Throop told this:
>>: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
>>: Any man with a pair of balls can work with the difference between the
>>: variations in the natural noon AM/PM cycles and the 24 hour AM/PM
>>: cycles but only if they can begin with the earth shattering fact that
>>: one day on Earth is the same as one rotation -

>> Yes, one rotation wrt the sun.  Nobody has ever said anything different.
>> Is your claim that there *is* nothing else to guage earth's rotation against?
>> Or better still, here is a suite of yes-or-no questions that would pin
>> make your position a lit less vague and handwavy.

>You forgot a question: "do the stars exist?". Some of his rambles make
>me wonder if he has forgotten they are there.

Aton,  somewhere,  was  crying,  whimpering  horribly  like a  terribly
frightened  child. 'Stars --  all  the  Stars -- we didn't  know at all.
We didn't  know anything.  We thought six stars  in a universe is
something the Stars didn't notice is Darkness forever and ever and ever
and the  walls are breaking in and we didn't know we couldn't know and
anything -- '

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
There is three erors in this sentence.

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More options Apr 30 2012, 3:13 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 19:13:13 GMT
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 3:13 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
: Did you enjoy waking up today at sunrise ?  - that would be one
: rotation of the Earth

wrt the sun.  Nobody ever denied it.

: 2+2=4 and the Earth can be seen turning once in 24 hours

wrt the sun.

: anyone who imagines otherwise is utterly stupid

Anybody who imagines that anybody imagines otherwise, would be more accurate.

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More options Apr 30 2012, 3:34 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:34:14 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 3:34 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
On Apr 30, 8:13 pm, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:

> : oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
> : Did you enjoy waking up today at sunrise ?  - that would be one
> : rotation of the Earth

> wrt the sun.  Nobody ever denied it.

A bunch of rednecks who can't manage to work out how the constant
progression of 24 hours days substitutes for constant rotation as the
Earth does not turn constantly to noon in 24 hours hence the Equation
of Time is needed.You are caught in a lie or your own stupidity -take

2+2=4 and the Earth turns once in a day.

It would be easier to have a popular inquiry yet I find that silence
and inaction are my only enemy rather than how well a bunch of
rednecks can avoid looking at a rotating Earth.Personally speaking,if
such a dereliction of duties happened in any other sphere of existence
such as the police there would be arrests made or some sort of
punitive measure relating to responsibility to protection of students
and their welfare but empiricists are a law onto themselves as they
continue to wreck havoc with modeling and terrestrial sciences.

There has to be some initial severity to rein in what is turning into
an intellectual holocaust and the first thing that will happen is that
you empirical drones will disappear,it is in your nature and that is
all there is to it.

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More options Apr 30 2012, 4:43 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:43:47 GMT
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 4:43 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
::: Did you enjoy waking up today at sunrise ?  =A0- that would be one
::: rotation of the Earth

:: wrt the sun.  Nobody ever denied it.

: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
: A bunch of rednecks who can't manage to work out how the constant
: progression of 24 hours days substitutes for constant rotation

Does th is word salad have a meaning of some sort?
Perhaps you could state what you mean by "constant progression
of 24 hours days".

: as the Earth does not turn constantly to noon in 24 hours hence the
: Equation of Time

Your example was sunrise to sunrise, and has nothing to do with
hours or the equation of time.

Nobody ever denied that the sun rises due to the rotation of the
earth wrt the sun.  Nobody even denied that this takes an average
of 24 hours.

Do YOU deny that stars rising above the horizon is also caused by
the rotation of the earth?  If not, do YOU deny that this occurs at

: There has to be some initial severity to rein in what is turning into
: an intellectual holocaust

First, you'd have to document that anybody denies that sunrise is
due to the rotation of the earth, and that the time sunrise to sunrise
is one rotation wrt the sun.  Nobody has, so good luck finding
somebody like that.

Again, what do YOU deny?  Do you deny that starrise is due to the earth's
rotation, and do you deny that starrise occurs at intervals of about 23h56m?

The real holocaust is that people won't simply state what they are
claiming, but instead waffle around finding excuses not to.
Luckily, for this subject, it's largely a holocaust of one; ie, you.

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More options Apr 30 2012, 6:08 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: Nix <nix-razor-...@esperi.org.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:08:09 +0100
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 6:08 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
On 30 Apr 2012, oriel outgrape:

NO. Bloody HSBC credit card fraud department checking an entirely
innocuous and frequent supermarket shopping transaction at 5:20am.

(OK, OK, so I should have put my mobile phone on silent. That'll teach
me.)

> - that would be one rotation of the Earth,

Sunrise equals a rotation of the earth? Your thinking is not even wrong.

> These 24 hour days never diverge from one rotation

WTF does that even mean? Days as measured from sunrise to sunset vary in
length over the year (and from year to year, and from millennium to
millennium in both regular and irregular ways, most very tiny other than
the seasonal change -- and even from megayear to megayear in a regular
way related to the recession of the moon.)

> 2+2=4 and the Earth can be seen turning once in 24 hours,

This from the person who claims that you can't tell which way the Earth
is rotating when you look down on its north pole because you couldn't
get up there to look at it.

> imagines otherwise is utterly stupid if they can't match that rotation
> in the time lapse footage above from 8PM on Wednesday 28th May 2008 to
> 8PM on Thursday 29th 2008.

"Thursday 29th 2008", *snicker*

--
NULL && (void)

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More options Apr 30 2012, 6:09 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: Nix <nix-razor-...@esperi.org.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:09:39 +0100
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 6:09 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
On 30 Apr 2012, Wayne Throop outgrape:

>: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
>: Did you enjoy waking up today at sunrise ?  - that would be one
>: rotation of the Earth

> wrt the sun.  Nobody ever denied it.

>: 2+2=4 and the Earth can be seen turning once in 24 hours

> wrt the sun.

Well, actually he appears to be saying that the time from some unstated
point to sunrise is 24 hours. This is both true (if that point was 24
hours beforehand, which would rarely be the previous dawn) and totally
vacuous.

--
NULL && (void)

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More options Apr 30 2012, 6:10 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: Nix <nix-razor-...@esperi.org.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:10:47 +0100
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
On 30 Apr 2012, Michael Stemper uttered the following:

Now *that's* somewhere where a day isn't 24 hours. (They must have some
interesting calendars there, too.)

--
NULL && (void)

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More options Apr 30 2012, 7:44 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:44:37 GMT
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 7:44 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
: Nix <nix-razor-...@esperi.org.uk>
: This from the person who claims that you can't tell which way the
: Earth is rotating when you look down on its north pole because you
: couldn't get up there to look at it.

No, iirc that was a drive-by troll from Starmaker.

:: These 24 hour days never diverge from one rotation

: WTF does that even mean?

Good question, since he's aware the noon-to-noon times change over the year.
On the other hand, of *course* sunrise never diverges from one rotation
wrt the sun.  I mean, duh, that's what makes it sunrise.  But of course,
nobody has ever denied it.

:: if they can't match that rotation in the time lapse footage above
:: from 8PM on Wednesday 28th May 2008 to 8PM on Thursday 29th 2008.

Of more interest, is people who might look at time lapse footage between
star-rise of, say, sirius, on two consecutive nights.  If anybody did so,
what do you suppose they'd find?  And why is that any worse a definition
of "one rotation wrt Sirius" than sunrise to sunrise is a definition
of "one rotation wrt the sun"?  Why is one better than the other?

Of course, oriel will never, ever, EVER, say why one is better than the other.
All he'll say is that anybody who doesn't use "wrt the sun" is stupid.
Never actually what the stupid aspects *are*.

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More options Apr 30 2012, 9:13 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity
From: "ala" <alackr...@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:13:10 -0400
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 9:13 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?

"David DeLaney" <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message

news:slrnjps19s.eal.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com...

I see a bang and an interrowon.

I can see why the second would be silent to human ears
but not the first

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More options Apr 30 2012, 9:57 pm
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From: "n...@bid.nes" <alien8...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 9:57 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
On Apr 30, 4:44 pm, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:

(snip)

> Of more interest, is people who might look at time lapse footage between
> star-rise of, say, sirius, on two consecutive nights.  If anybody did so,
> what do you suppose they'd find?  And why is that any worse a definition
> of "one rotation wrt Sirius" than sunrise to sunrise is a definition
> of "one rotation wrt the sun"?  Why is one better than the other?

Because to oriel, "day" so strongly implies "daylight" that Sol must
be his touchstone.

> Of course, oriel will never, ever, EVER, say why one is better than the other.
> All he'll say is that anybody who doesn't use "wrt the sun" is stupid.
> Never actually what the stupid aspects *are*.

Because he'd have to reveal the full glory of his Earth-centric,
anti-Newtonian, anti-relativistic worldview. The rest of the universe
DOES NOT MATTER to him; only Earth and Sol, in that order.

I bet if anyone mentioned astrolabes, and why they're built the way
they are, he'd froth even more...

I also strongly suspect him of being a pro-French-scientist bigot.

Mark L. Fergerson

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More options Apr 30 2012, 10:15 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: "ala" <alackr...@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:15:51 -0400
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 10:15 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?

"n...@bid.nes" <alien8...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> Because to oriel, "day" so strongly implies "daylight" that Sol must

>be his touchstone.
> >Of course, oriel will never, ever, EVER, say why one is better than the
> >other.
>> All he'll say is that anybody who doesn't use "wrt the sun" is stupid.
> >Never actually what the stupid aspects *are*.
>  Because he'd have to reveal the full glory of his Earth-centric,
>anti-Newtonian, anti-relativistic worldview. The rest of the universe
>DOES NOT MATTER to him; only Earth and Sol, in that order.

> I bet if anyone mentioned astrolabes, and why they're built the way

>they are, he'd froth even more...

are you serious, doesn't everyone put everything up in the cloud?  that's
what backs it up

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More options Apr 30 2012, 11:13 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 03:13:31 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 11:13 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?

thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) writes:
>:: These 24 hour days never diverge from one rotation
>: WTF does that even mean?
>Good question, since he's aware the noon-to-noon times change over the year.

That is interesting, since one of the largest contributors to the
deviation from local noons being 24 hours apart is the ellipticity of the
Earth's orbit.  That is, when the earth is closer than usual to the sun
(January), the earth moves faster than usual in its orbit, so it must turn
a little more than average for the sun to return to the noon position of
the previous day, thus the noon-noon time is slightly longer than 24 hours.
Conversely, when the earth is further than usual from the sun, it moves
slower in its orbit, and therefore the extra rotation needed to return the
sun to the previous noon position is less than average, so the next noon
is a bit early, less than 24 hours from the last.  If oriel understands
that then he SHOULD understand the rotation above the 360 degree sidereal
rotation to make up for the orbital motion moving the apparent position of
the sun.

(there is another effect due to the tilt that's harder to visualize,
but it has a frequency of 2 cycles per year and is what gives the
analemma a figure 8 shape rather than an oval)

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More options Apr 30 2012, 11:22 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:22:17 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 11:22 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
On Apr 30, 11:09 pm, Nix <nix-razor-...@esperi.org.uk> wrote:

This is amazing in a way to come across individuals who are acting out
the worst parts of a dystopian novel with its roots in Nazi doctrine
given that the central theme is convincing yourselves that the Earth
doesn't turn once in 24 hours -

"Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct,
at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of
not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of
misunderstanding the simplest arguments... and of being bored or
repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a
heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity"
Orwell

The creation of the 24 hour day using natural noon is simple yet you
can't let it in and perhaps you are not rednecks after all but suffer
the affliction of a cult(ure) where it is literally impossible for you
to change to a stable view where one 24 hour day keeps in step with
one natural noon and one rotation of the planet -

"... hang two plummets, each by a small thred or wire, directly over
the said Meridian, at the distance of some 2. feet or more one from
the other, as the smalness of the thred will admit. When the middle of
the Sun (the Eye being placed so, as to bring both the threds into one
line) appears to be in the same line exactly.....you are then
immediately to set the Watch, not precisely to the hour of 12. but by
so much less, as is the Aequation of the day by the Table." Huygens

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More options Apr 30 2012, 11:49 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:49:41 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 11:49 pm
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
On May 1, 2:57 am, "n...@bid.nes" <alien8...@gmail.com> wrote:

The core of civil timekeeping is held together by the AM/PM
designations which reflect the rotation of the Earth to noon which in
turn creates the average 24 hour day from that observation.There is
nothing more that the difference between the variations in time
between natural noon AM/PM and the equal length of 24 hour AM/PM
hence there is no external reference for the 24 hour day or the
constant progression of these days which serve to substitute for
constant daily rotation through the Lat/Long system.

There is no sidereal vs solar day,there is only the unequal daily
cycle and the equal 24 hour cycle which work in tandem with the daily
and orbital cycles to give us the civil timekeeping system we use
today.

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More options May 1 2012, 12:17 am
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 04:17:09 GMT
Local: Tues, May 1 2012 12:17 am
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
: The core of civil timekeeping is held together by the AM/PM
: designations which reflect the rotation of the Earth to noon

and hence, wrt the sun.  Which takes an average of 24 hours.
Of course, rotation of the earth wrt other objects does not
take an average of 24 hours, if they move wrt the sun.

It wonders me what oriel36's motive is for calling anybody who
notices this simple fact (and it is an observed *fact*) "stupid".

: There is no sidereal vs solar day

Well, there you go.  Oriel36 is simply ignoring observed facts
in order to prop up his fantasies.

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More options May 1 2012, 2:09 am
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity
From: d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 02:09:01 -0400
Local: Tues, May 1 2012 2:09 am
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?

n...@bid.nes <alien8...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Apr 30, 4:44 pm, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:
>(snip)
>> Of more interest, is people who might look at time lapse footage between
>> star-rise of, say, sirius, on two consecutive nights.  If anybody did so,
>> what do you suppose they'd find?  And why is that any worse a definition
>> of "one rotation wrt Sirius" than sunrise to sunrise is a definition
>> of "one rotation wrt the sun"?  Why is one better than the other?

>  Because to oriel, "day" so strongly implies "daylight" that Sol must
>be his touchstone.

Wonder whether he thinks the Earth stops turning on seriously-cloudy days.

>>Of course, oriel will never, ever, EVER, say why one is better than the other.
>>All he'll say is that anybody who doesn't use "wrt the sun" is stupid.
>>Never actually what the stupid aspects *are*.

>  Because he'd have to reveal the full glory of his Earth-centric,
>anti-Newtonian, anti-relativistic worldview. The rest of the universe
>DOES NOT MATTER to him; only Earth and Sol, in that order.

>  I bet if anyone mentioned astrolabes, and why they're built the way
>they are, he'd froth even more...

I wonder whether anyone's ever let him know WHY the ancient Egyptians tracked
the rising and setting of Sirius.

Dave "and what his reaction to the current brilliance of Venus in the evening
sky might be, and its motion relative to Jupiter and to the Moon" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that     grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour  The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE        HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

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More options May 1 2012, 2:41 am
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity, misc.writing.screenplays
From: oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:41:33 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Tues, May 1 2012 2:41 am
Subject: Re: How Many Planets Are There in the Solar System?
On May 1, 5:17 am, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:

> : oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com>
> : The core of civil timekeeping is held together by the AM/PM
> : designations which reflect the rotation of the Earth to noon

> and hence, wrt the sun.  Which takes an average of 24 hours.
> Of course, rotation of the earth wrt other objects does not
> take an average of 24 hours, if they move wrt the sun.

Watching puny intellects try to handle astronomical topics is quite a
sight,I read Newton like a newspaper in his hamfisted 'theory of
gravity' attempt to make it appear that planets and moons act in the
same way as objects at a human level.The difference between you and
the other rednecks here with Newton is that he was systematic in the
way he took shortcuts and distorted astronomical insights as opposed
to his followers who never could trace his reasoning from premise to
conclusion -

"The demonstrations throughout the book [Principia] are geometrical,
but to readers of ordinary ability are rendered unnecessarily
difficult by the absence of illustrations and explanations, and by the
fact that no clue is given to the method by which Newton arrived at
his results. The reason why it was presented in a geometrical form
appears to have been that the infinitesimal calculus was then unknown,
and, had Newton used it to demonstrate results which were in
themselves opposed to the prevalent philosophy of the time, the
controversy as to the truth of his results would have been hampered by
a dispute concerning the validity of the methods used in proving them.
He therefore cast the whole reasoning into a geometrical shape which,
if somewhat longer, can at any rate be made intelligible to all
mathematical students." Rouse Ball 1908

I have traced it decisively and it surfaces dramatically at this
juncture where humans have lost the capacity to begin with the fact
that one day and one rotation are the same thing and work everything
back from there instead of trying to justify things circumpolar motion
which is merely an outrigger of the Lat/Long system and the AM/PM
cycles.

> It wonders me what oriel36's motive is for calling anybody who
> notices this simple fact (and it is an observed *fact*) "stupid".

> : There is no sidereal vs solar day

> Well, there you go.  Oriel36 is simply ignoring observed facts
> in order to prop up his fantasies.

Once you have a 24 hour day,a watch and a steady progression of these
days,then you can go and create a convenience such as the Lat/Long
system for rotation,you can create timezones or have daylight savings
time,you can even use the Ra/Dec system which has all objects moving
relative to each other in a rotating celestial sphere and all other
things relating to civil timekeeping as long as you know that it
emerges from the parent framework of the AM/PM and the difference
between the unequal length of the day and the equal 24 hour day.

I don't have fantasies,a few posts ago you couldn't tell the
difference between a 19th century science fiction novel and a formal
20th century version but others have proven no better or worse than
you.