A strange way to manage a starship
Ruggero
Sometimes I introduce presentations etc. with a SF quotation. This time I
had a very suitable one in mind, but for the life of me I cannot trace it to
author and title. If this is not the most appropriate NG for asking, could
some kind soul point me to the right one.
It is, as I remember it, a long story or a full novel, set in a traveling
spaceship. Translated to Italian in the 1960's, so the original must be 50s
at the latest.
The contents of interest is the peculiar way the crew make decisions. The
department managers convene in a meeting room and, when everybody is
present, they disband and go back to daily business. Explanation: they all
are perfectly rational, so they all necessarily come to the same
conclusions, so there is nothing to debate!
But I wonder: if they are so rational, why not go all the way and stop
wasting time in these back-and-forth to the meeting room? I do not remember
if the story says anything on it. Anyway, it sounds so peculiar that anyone
who read it and has a better memory than mine (no big feat) must have taken
notice and remember it, whereas there is not much material to google about.
It would suit beautifully as a quotation, if only I knew the bibliographic
data...
Thanks for any advice.
Ruggero
Quadibloc
> Translated to Italian in the 1960's,
I don't recognize the story, but your post has suggested one thought.
It's possible that while the scene was bizarre enough in the original
work, it could have been modified slightly when the work was...
betrayed.
If that's the case, you might need to ask on an Italian-language
newsgroup about the story, as then it might be recognized by someone
who read the same translation as you did.
John Savard
Ruggero
news:9bd22996-1fb9-47f2...@d19g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
Dear John,
unfortunately I am fresh out of an attempt to evoke a reply, on what I think
is the leading Italia SF NG. No cigars (yet). Plus, there is a rather
satisfactory Italian SF DB, but again no success.
The problem with these queries is that what I (the searcher) consider most
important may not strike the average reader, and so not make it to long-term
memory. There are a couple of other searches I have started, and that I know
are heavily dependent on translation of terms, so even Google is not
suitable. Just the serendipitous encounter of two memory flashes produces an
answer, sometimes.
Anyway: is there a NG that is more suitable than this for presenting riddles
of this nature?
Thanks
Ruggero
Mike Schilling
I don't know of one. We're pretty good at this. I'm changing the subject
to include YASID (yet another story ID) in the subject, to get the attention
of the people who excel at at .
Butch Malahide
>
> Anyway: is there a NG that is more suitable than this for presenting riddles
> of this nature?
Not a newsgroup, and maybe not *more* suitable, but another very good
place for this kind of query is the BookSleuth forum at abe.com. Some
of the answerers there are very good indeed; for instance John Boston,
who used to frequent *this* NG, and on occasion solved an impossible
riddle for me.
Dorothy J Heydt
No, you came to the right place. We regret that, for once in a
way, we weren't able to identify your YASID. There have been
times when half a sentence's worth of description has been enough
to trigger twenty correct answers piling in on top of one another
... but this one seems to have stumped everybody.
Though your description does remind me (faintly) of the story of
a couple of seagoing ships in the early Middle Ages, one crewed
by Scandinavians (but they were not Vikings, they were off for
trading not raiding), the other by more southerly Europeans.
The southerners called across to the northerners, "Who is your
master?" and they called back, "Nobody! We are all equals!" And
they weren't kidding. There was undoubtedly someone aboard who
owned the ship and/or was nominally in command. But everyone
aboard such a ship (all ten or fifteen of them, maybe) knew how
to operate every part of it in a pinch, and could see what needed
to be done in any situation, and the nearest man to the
appropriate rope or oar would lay hand to it without needing to
be ordered to.
But, as you say, it does seem like a hell of a way to run a
spaceship.
In fact, even if you never come across the correct answer to your
question, it sounds like a situation someone *could* write a good
story about. A spaceship with a small crew (many processes
automated, I assume) meets a huge ship with a crew of hundreds or
thousands. Hijinks ensue.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
Quadibloc
> Anyway: is there a NG that is more suitable than this for presenting riddles
> of this nature?
I wasn't criticizing you for asking here; this is probably the best
place to go when searching for a story ID that will not fall easily
before Google.
I hadn't known, though, what Italian-language search steps you might
have taken, and so I wanted to at least note the possibility that the
translation could have changed the incident enough not to make it
recognizable to those who read the story in question in what I presume
wa the English-language original.
John Savard
Robert Carnegie
Sorry, no bells ringing, although it sounds like a comedy. If these
people are rational, it doesn't mean they aren't stupid...
Maybe they're telepathic...
Maybe the translator cut out the boring debate scenes...
_Methuselah's Children_ has a starship and crew meetings...
Rich Horton
Alas, the actual story information seems to have been snipped, and the
message-id doesn't work for me.
Mike Schilling
So does The Voyage of the Space Beagle, but I don't recall them being so
unanimous.
Joel Polowin
> Ruggero wrote:
> > The contents of interest is the peculiar way the crew make decisions. The
> > department managers convene in a meeting room and, when everybody is
> > present, they disband and go back to daily business. Explanation: they all
> > are perfectly rational, so they all necessarily come to the same
> > conclusions, so there is nothing to debate!
>
> people are rational, it doesn't mean they aren't stupid...
>
> Maybe they're telepathic...
>
> Maybe the translator cut out the boring debate scenes...
>
> _Methuselah's Children_ has a starship and crew meetings...
It reminds me somewhat of one of the ST:TNG episodes in which they
pretended to try to get Wesley sent off to Starfleet Academy. One
of the other candidates was from a starfaring race whose cultural
quirk was that if someone noticed a problem, he wasn't allowed to
tell anyone else about it until he had figured out a solution. The
notion that someone might be able to observe a problem that could
be better handled by others, or that different people might have
*different information* which could be combined, apparently did not
work in their culture.
Dorothy J Heydt
Here's the original story information:
>It is, as I remember it, a long story or a full novel, set in a
traveling spaceship. Translated to Italian in the 1960's, so the
>original must be 50s at the latest.
>The contents of interest is the peculiar way the crew make
>decisions. The department managers convene in a meeting room and,
>when everybody is present, they disband and go back to daily business.
>Explanation: they all are perfectly rational, so they all necessarily
>come to the same conclusions, so there is nothing to debate!
>But I wonder: if they are so rational, why not go all the way and
>stop wasting time in these back-and-forth to the meeting room? I do
>not remember if the story says anything on it. Anyway, it sounds
>so peculiar that anyone who read it and has a better memory than
>mine (no big feat) must have taken notice and remember it, whereas
>there is not much material to google about.
Ruggero
"Robert Carnegie" <rja.ca...@excite.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:f91b43d8-0906-45d4...@o8g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
> Ruggero wrote:
>> Sometimes I introduce presentations etc. with a SF quotation. This time I
>> had a very suitable one in mind, but for the life of me I cannot trace it
>> to
>> author and title. If this is not the most appropriate NG for asking,
>> could some kind soul point me to the right one.
>> It is, as I remember it, a long story or a full novel, set in a traveling
>> spaceship. Translated to Italian in the 1960's, so the original must be
>> 50s at the latest.
>> The contents of interest is the peculiar way the crew make decisions. The
>> department managers convene in a meeting room and, when everybody is
>> present, they disband and go back to daily business. Explanation: they
>> all are perfectly rational, so they all necessarily come to the same
>> conclusions, so there is nothing to debate!
>
> Sorry, no bells ringing, although it sounds like a comedy.
Thanks for the suggestion. I will report after checking, as I do remember
reading Methuselah's Children. I will find a copy and re-read it, just to
leave no stone unturned. Yes, indeed the concept sounds funny, but, as I
recall it, the author was 100 percent serious. That's why it turned out to
be so sticky.
Ruggero
Gary R. Schmidt
> In article <ql44u5h7bm0l5m3hj...@4ax.com>,
> Rich Horton <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 5 May 2010 12:17:50 -0700, "Mike Schilling"
>> <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Alas, the actual story information seems to have been snipped, and the
>> message-id doesn't work for me.
>
> Here's the original story information:
>
>> It is, as I remember it, a long story or a full novel, set in a
> traveling spaceship. Translated to Italian in the 1960's, so the
>> original must be 50s at the latest.
>
>> The contents of interest is the peculiar way the crew make
>> decisions. The department managers convene in a meeting room and,
>> when everybody is present, they disband and go back to daily business.
>> Explanation: they all are perfectly rational, so they all necessarily
>> come to the same conclusions, so there is nothing to debate!
>
>> But I wonder: if they are so rational, why not go all the way and
>> stop wasting time in these back-and-forth to the meeting room? I do
>> not remember if the story says anything on it. Anyway, it sounds
>> so peculiar that anyone who read it and has a better memory than
>> mine (no big feat) must have taken notice and remember it, whereas
>> there is not much material to google about.
>
>
in A. E. van Vogt's "Voyage of the Space Beagle." (I mean, if a really,
*really* bad translation was made.)
I wonder if the OP recalls Dr. Elliott Grosvenor, or the science of
"Nexialism."
Cheers,
Gary B-)
Derek Lyons
>It reminds me somewhat of one of the ST:TNG episodes in which they
>pretended to try to get Wesley sent off to Starfleet Academy. One
>of the other candidates was from a starfaring race whose cultural
>quirk was that if someone noticed a problem, he wasn't allowed to
>tell anyone else about it until he had figured out a solution. The
>notion that someone might be able to observe a problem that could
>be better handled by others, or that different people might have
>*different information* which could be combined, apparently did not
>work in their culture.
Hell, it's a meme that's spreading in our own culture - "don't
criticize unless you have a better idea".
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Joseph Nebus
>It reminds me somewhat of one of the ST:TNG episodes in which they
>pretended to try to get Wesley sent off to Starfleet Academy. One
>of the other candidates was from a starfaring race whose cultural
>quirk was that if someone noticed a problem, he wasn't allowed to
>tell anyone else about it until he had figured out a solution. The
>notion that someone might be able to observe a problem that could
>be better handled by others, or that different people might have
>*different information* which could be combined, apparently did not
>work in their culture.
You've remembered it a bit wrong: he didn't report the thing
he noticed (a space bacteria eating starship hulls) because he hadn't
completed his analysis and didn't have a plan of action to offer. It
isn't said that he couldn't tell anyone else or ask for help or any
such thing, just that he's not bothering his supervisors until he has
something for them to do.
Note that earlier in the episode (``A Matter Of Honor'', for
the record) he twice tries to offer unsolicited advice on how to change
operations for better efficiency or performance only to get slapped
down, so being over-cautious about a thing that might be a thing but he
doesn't know what it is and doesn't know what to do seems a reasonable
albeit in the event mistaken response.
(Of course, telling your commander whenever anything looks funny,
as Picard claims is his policy, opens the command staff to the exciting
world of Type I errors. On the other hand, if each anomaly results in at
least two conference room scenes Picard may be looking for that.)
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Lyons
> (Of course, telling your commander whenever anything looks funny,
>as Picard claims is his policy, opens the command staff to the exciting
>world of Type I errors. On the other hand, if each anomaly results in at
>least two conference room scenes Picard may be looking for that.)
Well, in real life Navies, Type I errors are vastly reduced by having
trained personell do the analysis before waking the Old Man. You work
your way up the chain.
Star Fleet has the oddest combination of seemingly untrusted
watchstanders and untrained operators that ever put to space - mostly
because of the need to get the main cast onscreen ASAP.
Dorothy J Heydt
Derek Lyons <fair...@gmail.com> wrote:
>nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
>> (Of course, telling your commander whenever anything looks funny,
>>as Picard claims is his policy, opens the command staff to the exciting
>>world of Type I errors. On the other hand, if each anomaly results in at
>>least two conference room scenes Picard may be looking for that.)
>
>Well, in real life Navies, Type I errors are vastly reduced by having
>trained personell do the analysis before waking the Old Man. You work
>your way up the chain.
>
>Star Fleet has the oddest combination of seemingly untrusted
>watchstanders and untrained operators that ever put to space - mostly
>because of the need to get the main cast onscreen ASAP.
Well, yes. For the same reason we continually see all the
top-ranking officers being sent on groundside missions to highly
dangerous planets.
I can remember back to when ST:TOS was new, and I can remember
someone remarking on how Dr. McCoy's role in the plots had
expanded as the first season went on. "His agent must know where
the body's buried."
Lynn McGuire
> department managers convene in a meeting room and, when everybody is
> present, they disband and go back to daily business. Explanation: they all
> are perfectly rational, so they all necessarily come to the same
> conclusions, so there is nothing to debate!
Or an even stranger story is one where they have to whip
the god to make the starship move from one place to the next:
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/12/30/the-god-engines-out-tomorrow-read-the-first-chapter-today/
Lynn
Gene Wirchenko
wrote:
>In article <4be36143....@news.supernews.com>,
>Derek Lyons <fair...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>>Star Fleet has the oddest combination of seemingly untrusted
>>watchstanders and untrained operators that ever put to space - mostly
>>because of the need to get the main cast onscreen ASAP.
Data does not have the requisite common sense to be a
lieutenant-commander.
>Well, yes. For the same reason we continually see all the
>top-ranking officers being sent on groundside missions to highly
>dangerous planets.
Which got mentioned in the M-5 episode. Kirk wants to know why
he was not selected for a landing party. Daystrom asks M-5 who
replies, "Non-essential personnel."
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Lynn McGuire
>>> watchstanders and untrained operators that ever put to space - mostly
>>> because of the need to get the main cast onscreen ASAP.
>
> Data does not have the requisite common sense to be a
> lieutenant-commander.
Political Correctness in the 24th century ?
But, I disagree. He was a fine officer as long as no one
flipped his off switch or turned his personality module on.
Lynn
Gene Wirchenko
wrote:
Maybe fine in the stamp collecting sense.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Mike Schilling
> In article <4be36143....@news.supernews.com>,
> Derek Lyons <fair...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
>>> (Of course, telling your commander whenever anything looks funny,
>>> as Picard claims is his policy, opens the command staff to the
>>> exciting world of Type I errors. On the other hand, if each
>>> anomaly results in at least two conference room scenes Picard may
>>> be looking for that.)
>>
>> Well, in real life Navies, Type I errors are vastly reduced by having
>> trained personell do the analysis before waking the Old Man. You
>> work your way up the chain.
>>
>> Star Fleet has the oddest combination of seemingly untrusted
>> watchstanders and untrained operators that ever put to space - mostly
>> because of the need to get the main cast onscreen ASAP.
>
> Well, yes. For the same reason we continually see all the
> top-ranking officers being sent on groundside missions to highly
> dangerous planets.
The non-coms who actually knew how to make things work were in the A ark.
Robert Carnegie
...which sounds kind'a like _Whipping Star_, which I presently
remember almost nothing about.