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Pull of the Narnia marketing machine too much for Pullman to resist.

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blue...@gmail.com

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Oct 17, 2005, 8:46:48 AM10/17/05
to
'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious propaganda....'

Says whiny anti-christian jewish author Philip Pullman in a transparent
effort to flog his own disturbing fantasy books on the back of the
Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe hype.

It's his books which are disturbing to childen:

'Actually, no. After the Harry Potter series I only managed to wade
through Phillip Pullman's trilogy, which frankly disturbed me quite
deeply and made me move away from Children's fiction for a while.'
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rfm...?thread=860172

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1593201,00.html

Christopher J. Henrich

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Oct 17, 2005, 11:07:25 AM10/17/05
to
In article <1129553207.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
<blue...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious propaganda....'
>
> Says whiny anti-christian jewish author Philip Pullman in a transparent
> effort to flog his own disturbing fantasy books on the back of the
> Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe hype.
>

As far as I know, Mr. Pullman is not Jewish. It might have been better
if he were; the Jews that I know personally or by their writings often
display a plentiful fund of good sense, decency, and quiet self-mocking
humor. (Google for "Zen Judaism" . Enjoy!)

His relation to Christianity is not simple antagonism. It is
complicated (muddled?) antagonism. As I understand it, he was much
influenced by his grandfather, who was a minister in the Church of
England.

The sentence quoted by the original poster is indeed whiny. I think
that being a celebrity is harder and more dangerous that it may seem.
One gets into a complicated mutual dependency with the media. And for
some of the media, a whiny rant is catnip.

--
Chris Henrich
http://www.mathinteract.com
"It's our supreme ability and willingness to screw up that is the secret of our
success."
-- R. X. Cringely

Martin Wisse

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Oct 17, 2005, 12:45:42 PM10/17/05
to
On 17 Oct 2005 05:46:48 -0700, blue...@gmail.com wrote:

>'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious propaganda....'
>
>Says whiny anti-christian jewish author Philip Pullman in a transparent
>effort to flog his own disturbing fantasy books on the back of the
>Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe hype.

Oddly enough, when I see somebody going out of their way to point out
their opponent is Jewish, alarm bells go ringing in my mind.

Especially when it isn't, you know, true.

Martin Wisse
--
Human knees are almost certainly one of those
'It looked like a good idea at 3 am' things.
-james Nicoll, rasseff

dchi...@cablespeed.com

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Oct 17, 2005, 1:01:24 PM10/17/05
to

Martin Wisse wrote:
> On 17 Oct 2005 05:46:48 -0700, blue...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious propaganda....'
> >
> >Says whiny anti-christian jewish author Philip Pullman in a transparent
> >effort to flog his own disturbing fantasy books on the back of the
> >Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe hype.
>
> Oddly enough, when I see somebody going out of their way to point out
> their opponent is Jewish, alarm bells go ringing in my mind.
>
> Especially when it isn't, you know, true.
>

And unfortunately taints the whole argument. Now anyone who
thinks Pullman is anti-Christian is a Nazi, so no debate
necessary.

Mike Schilling

unread,
Oct 17, 2005, 1:17:59 PM10/17/05
to
Martin Wisse wrote:
> On 17 Oct 2005 05:46:48 -0700, blue...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious propaganda....'
> >
> >Says whiny anti-christian jewish author Philip Pullman in a transparent
> >effort to flog his own disturbing fantasy books on the back of the
> >Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe hype.
>
> Oddly enough, when I see somebody going out of their way to point out
> their opponent is Jewish, alarm bells go ringing in my mind.
>
> Especially when it isn't, you know, true.

But he's anti-Christian, thus would have wanted to kill Christ, thus it's
true enough for religious work.


Derek Janssen

unread,
Oct 17, 2005, 4:48:30 PM10/17/05
to
Christopher J. Henrich wrote:

> In article <1129553207.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> <blue...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious propaganda....'
>>
>>Says whiny anti-christian jewish author Philip Pullman in a transparent
>>effort to flog his own disturbing fantasy books on the back of the
>>Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe hype.
>>
>
> As far as I know, Mr. Pullman is not Jewish. It might have been better
> if he were; the Jews that I know personally or by their writings often
> display a plentiful fund of good sense, decency, and quiet self-mocking
> humor. (Google for "Zen Judaism" . Enjoy!)
>
> His relation to Christianity is not simple antagonism. It is
> complicated (muddled?) antagonism. As I understand it, he was much
> influenced by his grandfather, who was a minister in the Church of
> England.

A particular breeding ground for snotty self-proclaimed "atheists" who
crave the showoff spotlight for it:
All the ritual and hierarchy of Catholicism without actually *being*
Catholicism--and a heavily enforced emphasis on Guilt in a country with
relatively few other options--tend to flatter the Angry Young into
believing that they're throwing rocks at "all organized religion", when,
in fact, they just haven't shopped around specific denominations.
(Much the same as most of our statesiders who giggle over their own
secular "mischief" usually trace back to the Baptist red-state
belts...It's called "not getting out much".)

...Which anti-Anglican attacks tends to get the same reaction from
contented (and, yes, often Lewisian) Protestants as "naughty"
anti-Catholic jokes:
"So, it's, um...'bad', is what you're saying? Really?...Take it you're
just finding this out, then? :-/ "

Derek Janssen
dja...@charter.net

Joe Pfeiffer

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Oct 17, 2005, 2:36:22 PM10/17/05
to
"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes:

> > Oddly enough, when I see somebody going out of their way to point out
> > their opponent is Jewish, alarm bells go ringing in my mind.
> >
> > Especially when it isn't, you know, true.
>
> But he's anti-Christian, thus would have wanted to kill Christ, thus it's
> true enough for religious work.

Huh? On a scale of "leaps of logic", this sentence is an Olympic
broad-jump champion.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
skype: jjpfeifferjr

Mike Schilling

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Oct 17, 2005, 3:43:38 PM10/17/05
to

"Joe Pfeiffer" <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in message
news:1br7akq...@viper.cs.nmsu.edu...

> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> > Oddly enough, when I see somebody going out of their way to point out
>> > their opponent is Jewish, alarm bells go ringing in my mind.
>> >
>> > Especially when it isn't, you know, true.
>>
>> But he's anti-Christian, thus would have wanted to kill Christ, thus it's
>> true enough for religious work.
>
> Huh? On a scale of "leaps of logic", this sentence is an Olympic
> broad-jump champion.

I left the ":-)" out, thinking it unnecessary.


Mark Atwood

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Oct 17, 2005, 4:33:02 PM10/17/05
to
mwi...@cloggie.org (Martin Wisse) writes:
>
> Oddly enough, when I see somebody going out of their way to point out
> their opponent is Jewish, alarm bells go ringing in my mind.

Mr. Wisse and I disagree on almost everything, but we do agree on this.

> Especially when it isn't, you know, true.

Indeed.

--
Mark Atwood When you do things right, people won't be sure
m...@mark.atwood.name you've done anything at all.
http://mark.atwood.name/ http://www.livejournal.com/users/fallenpegasus

carmen....@gmail.com

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Oct 17, 2005, 5:18:22 PM10/17/05
to

blue...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1593201,00.html

*looks at article* *jaw drops*

"The Narnia books, Pullman said, contained '...a peevish blend of
racist, misogynistic and reactionary prejudice; but of love, of
Christian charity, [there is] not a trace'."

...yeah. Obviously Pullman has been reading a Narnia series from some
other universe entirely.

Carmen W.

Joe Pfeiffer

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Oct 17, 2005, 5:01:05 PM10/17/05
to
"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes:

> "Joe Pfeiffer" <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in message
> news:1br7akq...@viper.cs.nmsu.edu...

> > Huh? On a scale of "leaps of logic", this sentence is an Olympic


> > broad-jump champion.
>
> I left the ":-)" out, thinking it unnecessary.

Sorry, in the context of the discussion I missed that it was sarcasm.
Glad to know it was!

Craig Richardson

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Oct 17, 2005, 5:18:24 PM10/17/05
to
On 17 Oct 2005 12:36:22 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu>
wrote:

>"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> > Oddly enough, when I see somebody going out of their way to point out
>> > their opponent is Jewish, alarm bells go ringing in my mind.
>> >
>> > Especially when it isn't, you know, true.
>>
>> But he's anti-Christian, thus would have wanted to kill Christ, thus it's
>> true enough for religious work.
>
>Huh? On a scale of "leaps of logic", this sentence is an Olympic
>broad-jump champion.

Hmm. Would an anti-Freudian want to kill Freud? And what would Freud
think about said anti-Freudian's unconscious?

--Craig

--
"Pain heals. Chicks dig scars. Glory lasts forever." - The Replacements
Craig Richardson (crichar...@worldnet.att.net)

Peter B. Juul

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Oct 17, 2005, 6:17:55 PM10/17/05
to
carmen....@gmail.com writes:

> "The Narnia books, Pullman said, contained '...a peevish blend of
> racist, misogynistic and reactionary prejudice; but of love, of
> Christian charity, [there is] not a trace'."

Well, at least the racism is, frankly, a reasonable claim. Read the
descriptions of the calormene. They are very much a caricature of
arabs.

--
Peter B. Juul, o.-.o
The RockBear. ((^))
I speak only 0}._.{0
for myself. O/ \O

Peter B. Juul

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Oct 17, 2005, 6:21:26 PM10/17/05
to
carmen....@gmail.com writes:

> "The Narnia books, Pullman said, contained '...a peevish blend of
> racist, misogynistic and reactionary prejudice; but of love, of
> Christian charity, [there is] not a trace'."

Well, at least the racism is, frankly, a reasonable claim. Read the


descriptions of the calormene. They are very much a caricature of
arabs.

He doesn't give talking monkeys much of a chance, either.

Damien Sullivan

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Oct 17, 2005, 6:37:05 PM10/17/05
to
p...@enzym.rnd.uni-c.dk (Peter B. Juul) wrote:
>carmen....@gmail.com writes:
>
>> "The Narnia books, Pullman said, contained '...a peevish blend of
>> racist, misogynistic and reactionary prejudice; but of love, of
>> Christian charity, [there is] not a trace'."
>
>Well, at least the racism is, frankly, a reasonable claim. Read the
>descriptions of the calormene. They are very much a caricature of
>arabs.

It's hard for me to not see the Black Dwarfs as Jews.

-xx- Damien X-)

Blake Hyde

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Oct 17, 2005, 6:47:52 PM10/17/05
to
blue...@gmail.com wrote:
> 'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious propaganda....'
>

Was I the only one who found Pullman's books underwhelming? I liked The
Golden Compass, but The Subtle Knife was not very good at all, and I
didn't finish The Amber Spyglass. Quite a disappointment; I thought TGC
was one of the better "young adult" books I had read at the time. It
had interesting ideas and an interesting setting.

Followups have been directed to r.a.s.w, where they belong. Maybe it
will drown out some of the Orson Scott Card traffic. ;)

Blake Hyde.

Message has been deleted

Brian Palmer

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Oct 17, 2005, 7:07:27 PM10/17/05
to
"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes:

> But he's anti-Christian, thus would have wanted to kill Christ, thus it's
> true enough for religious work.

Wouldn't a true anti-Christian have wanted to save Christ? I'm trying
to think of whether any of that showed up in Gore Vidal's _Live from
Golgotha_ -- the best book I can think of offhand that involves
time-travel and Jesus.
--
I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard.

Mike Schilling

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Oct 17, 2005, 7:23:23 PM10/17/05
to

"Brian Palmer" <bpa...@rescomp.Stanford.EDU> wrote in message
news:0wh4q7f...@rescomp.stanford.edu...

> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> But he's anti-Christian, thus would have wanted to kill Christ, thus it's
>> true enough for religious work.
>
> Wouldn't a true anti-Christian have wanted to save Christ?

Only if gitfed with a great deal of foresight. Even He didn't seem to
realize the purpose His death served until after it had happened.

> I'm trying
> to think of whether any of that showed up in Gore Vidal's _Live from
> Golgotha_ -- the best book I can think of offhand that involves
> time-travel and Jesus.

Time travel would make it hindsight, always in much greater supply. But I
can see that working:

"Why make a martyr out of him? Lock him up with nothing to eat but some
bacon and nothing to drink but milk, and assign one of those pretty Moabite
girls to clean his cell. It'll be safe to let him go after he has no
street cred left."


William December Starr

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Oct 17, 2005, 8:21:28 PM10/17/05
to
In article <1129553207.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
blue...@gmail.com said:

> 'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious
> propaganda....'
>
> Says whiny anti-christian jewish author Philip Pullman in a
> transparent effort to flog his own disturbing fantasy books on the
> back of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe hype.
>
> It's his books which are disturbing to childen:

Man, listen to that axe grind...

--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>

Dr. Dave

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Oct 17, 2005, 9:01:48 PM10/17/05
to
Peter B. Juul wrote:
> carmen....@gmail.com writes:
>
> > "The Narnia books, Pullman said, contained '...a peevish blend of
> > racist, misogynistic and reactionary prejudice; but of love, of
> > Christian charity, [there is] not a trace'."
>
> Well, at least the racism is, frankly, a reasonable claim. Read the
> descriptions of the calormene. They are very much a caricature of
> arabs.

It's an awfully fond caricature, by the time you get to _The Last
Battle_. The young Calormene officer is probably the most sympathetic
character to make it to paradise, after all -- and make it he does, on
the "true worship is deity-independent" theory that is rankest heresy
among Christians.

If you want to argue racism, you need to find a better example.

David Tate

Derek Janssen

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Oct 18, 2005, 12:18:34 AM10/18/05
to
Dr. Dave wrote:
>
>>Well, at least the racism is, frankly, a reasonable claim. Read the
>>descriptions of the calormene. They are very much a caricature of
>>arabs.

(Or just a personal "Weren't the Crusades *cool*?" knight fan-geekhood
that dated back to Lewis's childhood.)

> It's an awfully fond caricature, by the time you get to _The Last
> Battle_. The young Calormene officer is probably the most sympathetic
> character to make it to paradise, after all -- and make it he does, on
> the "true worship is deity-independent" theory that is rankest heresy
> among Christians.

Depends which Christians--
"All find what they truly seek" is the accepted message of interfaith
tolerance.

...More importantly, it helps shoot Snotty Unread Cliche/Poseur Argument
#2 out of the water. :)

Derek Janssen
dja...@charter.net

Mark Atwood

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Oct 17, 2005, 9:41:04 PM10/17/05
to
p...@enzym.rnd.uni-c.dk (Peter B. Juul) writes:
>
> He doesn't give talking monkeys much of a chance, either.

Heh.

| "Ape,"
| he cried with a great voice.
| "You lie.
| You lie damnably.
| You lie like a Calormene.
| You lie like an Ape."
-- King Tirian, _The Last Battle_

Splicer

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Oct 17, 2005, 10:14:23 PM10/17/05
to
blue...@gmail.com wrote on 17 Oct 2005:

> Says whiny anti-christian jewish author Philip Pullman

Is it Kristallnacht already?

................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
>>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<
-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Steve Hayes

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Oct 17, 2005, 10:55:41 PM10/17/05
to
On 17 Oct 2005 05:46:48 -0700, blue...@gmail.com wrote:

>'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious propaganda....'
>
>Says whiny anti-christian jewish author Philip Pullman in a transparent
>effort to flog his own disturbing fantasy books on the back of the
>Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe hype.

This is the fourth time I've read this paragraph, under two different subject
lines.

What makes me think you are a troll and may be a spammer?


--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius

Gene Ward Smith

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Oct 18, 2005, 12:00:37 AM10/18/05
to

Peter B. Juul wrote:

> Well, at least the racism is, frankly, a reasonable claim. Read the
> descriptions of the calormene. They are very much a caricature of
> arabs.

Actually, the Calormene are only partly Arabs. The Persians,
Babylonians and Turks went into the brew. They are a sort of amalgam
classic "oriental despotism" as these have been viewed through Western
eyes going back (very significantly for Lewis) to ancient Greece.

carmen....@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 12:23:58 AM10/18/05
to

Peter B. Juul wrote:
> carmen....@gmail.com writes:
>
> > "The Narnia books, Pullman said, contained '...a peevish blend of
> > racist, misogynistic and reactionary prejudice; but of love, of
> > Christian charity, [there is] not a trace'."
>
> Well, at least the racism is, frankly, a reasonable claim. Read the
> descriptions of the calormene. They are very much a caricature of
> arabs.

I should have specified that I could at least see where he was getting
the first half of the sentence (although "peevish" is not an adjective
it would ever have occurred to me to apply to Narnia); it was the
second half that baffled me.

Carmen W.

Joe Pfeiffer

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 12:40:05 AM10/18/05
to
p...@enzym.rnd.uni-c.dk (Peter B. Juul) writes:

> carmen....@gmail.com writes:
>
> > "The Narnia books, Pullman said, contained '...a peevish blend of
> > racist, misogynistic and reactionary prejudice; but of love, of
> > Christian charity, [there is] not a trace'."
>
> Well, at least the racism is, frankly, a reasonable claim. Read the
> descriptions of the calormene. They are very much a caricature of
> arabs.

Yes, but it's demonstrated (in The Last Battle, IIRC) that a Calormene
who lives according to Aslan's teachings, without ever having heard of
Aslan, is as much a child of Aslan as anybody else.

Joe Pfeiffer

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 12:41:22 AM10/18/05
to
"Dr. Dave" <dt...@ida.org> writes:
>
> It's an awfully fond caricature, by the time you get to _The Last
> Battle_. The young Calormene officer is probably the most sympathetic
> character to make it to paradise, after all -- and make it he does, on
> the "true worship is deity-independent" theory that is rankest heresy
> among Christians.

I remember it as more "saved by Natural Law" than "true worship is
deity-independent."

Steve Hayes

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Oct 18, 2005, 2:44:29 AM10/18/05
to

Pullman's statement perhaps says more about Pullman than about Lewis. It gives
me the impression that Pullman recognises himself in the description of the
unreformed Eustace Scrubb, and took the description personally, as if Lewis
were deliberately having a dig at him. If anything is peevish, it's Pullman's
response.

Ray Cunningham

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 5:41:36 AM10/18/05
to

blue...@gmail.com wrote:
> 'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious propaganda....'
>
> Says whiny anti-christian jewish author Philip Pullman in a transparent
> effort to flog his own disturbing fantasy books on the back of the
> Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe hype.
>
> It's his books which are disturbing to childen:
>
> 'Actually, no. After the Harry Potter series I only managed to wade
> through Phillip Pullman's trilogy, which frankly disturbed me quite
> deeply and made me move away from Children's fiction for a while.'
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/rfm...?thread=860172
>
> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1593201,00.html

Crossposted to three different groups, unknown poster, dropping
'jewish' into the mix ... this post practically comes with its own
bridge.
If you must feed the troll at all, keep your replies to your own
newsgroup.

Ray

Peter B. Juul

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 7:35:57 AM10/18/05
to
"Dr. Dave" <dt...@ida.org> writes:

> It's an awfully fond caricature, by the time you get to _The Last
> Battle_. The young Calormene officer is probably the most sympathetic
> character to make it to paradise, after all

Indeed.

However, I do not really consider these things racist. Lewis' portrait
of these "pretty much arab" men is, though it may be somewhat
politically correct, just a product of the time it was written - and
for that time, probably a rather fond one.

But it would probably be what modern, politically correct people would
point to as racist.

To illustrate this concept, I like to mention swedish author Selma
Lagerlöf's "Christ Legends", written about 100 years ago. They are
kind and beautiful stories about people who somehow got in contact
with Christ back when.

In her story about the three wise men who came to the manger, she
tells ud that one of them was a poor old man, the other a lepper (as
far as I recall) and the third one a black man. It wouldn't surprise
me, if she actually used "nigger" or somesuch word. In the end, the
lepper is healthy and strong, the old man is young and rich and the
black man is a beautiful white man.

Written today? Horrific example of a narrow, racist mind, indeed.

Written then? Not so. It is simply a product of its time.

Another example is several danish children songs from the third
quarter of the 20th century. They use "nigger" as a noun for a colored
african. They are considered racist by many today. They were never
written in that spirit.
--
Peter B. Juul, o.-.o "Well," said Aslan, "I suppose we could try lasers."

Peter B. Juul

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 7:38:45 AM10/18/05
to
Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:

> Yes, but it's demonstrated (in The Last Battle, IIRC) that a Calormene
> who lives according to Aslan's teachings, without ever having heard of
> Aslan, is as much a child of Aslan as anybody else.

Absolutely. So murderers, traitors and calormene can all get saved :-)

--
Peter B. Juul, o.-.o "I'm not ignoring any facts.
The RockBear. ((^)) I'm simply ignoring you.
I speak only 0}._.{0 Slight difference."
for myself. O/ \O -jms

Martin Wisse

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 7:40:30 AM10/18/05
to
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:17:59 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
<mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Martin Wisse wrote:


>> On 17 Oct 2005 05:46:48 -0700, blue...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious propaganda....'
>> >
>> >Says whiny anti-christian jewish author Philip Pullman in a transparent
>> >effort to flog his own disturbing fantasy books on the back of the
>> >Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe hype.
>>

>> Oddly enough, when I see somebody going out of their way to point out
>> their opponent is Jewish, alarm bells go ringing in my mind.
>>
>> Especially when it isn't, you know, true.
>

>But he's anti-Christian, thus would have wanted to kill Christ, thus it's
>true enough for religious work.

You can't argue with logic like that...

Martin Wisse
--
"Check out these HOT lounge chairs do anything but lounge!
Better get that garden hose!"
<http://www.furnitureporn.com>

carmen....@gmail.com

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Oct 18, 2005, 9:33:18 AM10/18/05
to

I would have thought they were more symbolic of atheists.

Carmen W.

Sea Wasp

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 9:45:39 AM10/18/05
to
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> "Dr. Dave" <dt...@ida.org> writes:
>
>>It's an awfully fond caricature, by the time you get to _The Last
>>Battle_. The young Calormene officer is probably the most sympathetic
>>character to make it to paradise, after all -- and make it he does, on
>>the "true worship is deity-independent" theory that is rankest heresy
>>among Christians.
>
>
> I remember it as more "saved by Natural Law" than "true worship is
> deity-independent."

IIRC, Aslan's pretty explicit that the NAME of the deity youo worship
is irrelevant; Aslan knows his own. He who prays to the name of Tash,
and does good works and is a man of faith and honesty and uprightness,
is really praying to Aslan, and conversely he who says the name of
Aslan but does evil against his fellow man is really following Tash.

There's only ONE real deity of Good and one of Evil, and it's what
you do, not what you say, that counts in the Narniaverse.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/

Christopher J. Henrich

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 11:20:03 AM10/18/05
to
In article <OYX4f.13202$nE2....@fe03.lga>, Derek Janssen
<dja...@nospam.charter.net> wrote:

Gee, I never knew these were organized into a list. Is there a Web site
where I can find it?

--
Chris Henrich
http://www.mathinteract.com
God just doesn't fit inside a single religion.

Steve Hayes

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 11:52:13 AM10/18/05
to
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:45:42 GMT, mwi...@cloggie.org (Martin Wisse) wrote:

>On 17 Oct 2005 05:46:48 -0700, blue...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious propaganda....'
>>
>>Says whiny anti-christian jewish author Philip Pullman in a transparent
>>effort to flog his own disturbing fantasy books on the back of the
>>Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe hype.
>
>Oddly enough, when I see somebody going out of their way to point out
>their opponent is Jewish, alarm bells go ringing in my mind.

What's odd about that?

Steve Hayes

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 11:52:14 AM10/18/05
to
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:23:23 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
<mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Brian Palmer" <bpa...@rescomp.Stanford.EDU> wrote in message
>news:0wh4q7f...@rescomp.stanford.edu...
>> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> But he's anti-Christian, thus would have wanted to kill Christ, thus it's
>>> true enough for religious work.
>>
>> Wouldn't a true anti-Christian have wanted to save Christ?
>
>Only if gitfed with a great deal of foresight. Even He didn't seem to
>realize the purpose His death served until after it had happened.

Was that pun intentional, or just a typo?

Damien Sullivan

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 2:03:38 PM10/18/05
to
carmen....@gmail.com wrote:
>Damien Sullivan wrote:

>> It's hard for me to not see the Black Dwarfs as Jews.
>
>I would have thought they were more symbolic of atheists.

Hmm. I suppose to map tightly to Jews they should accept the
Emperor-Over-the-Sea while rejecting Aslan; all I remember is their rejecting
Aslan. But they looked like a typical caricature of Jews, and served the
White Witch in _Wardrobe_, who *did* follow the Emperor's Law. (She demanded
Edmund under the Law; Aslan acknowledged her right but substituted himself,
and was sacrificed on the Law Table, which his death broke. It's Furry
Pauline Christianity.)

-xx- Damien X-)

Mike Schilling

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 2:48:50 PM10/18/05
to

"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:18g9l1ds40cbegpsl...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:23:23 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
> <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Brian Palmer" <bpa...@rescomp.Stanford.EDU> wrote in message
>>news:0wh4q7f...@rescomp.stanford.edu...
>>> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> But he's anti-Christian, thus would have wanted to kill Christ, thus
>>>> it's
>>>> true enough for religious work.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't a true anti-Christian have wanted to save Christ?
>>
>>Only if gitfed with a great deal of foresight. Even He didn't seem to
>>realize the purpose His death served until after it had happened.
>
> Was that pun intentional, or just a typo?

"gitfed"? Pure typo.


carmen....@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 4:31:15 PM10/18/05
to

I only rechecked a couple of scenes in "Last Battle," which were
definitely about the denying of anything but themselves and what's
inside their own head. (I.e. not just "this isn't Aslan, the real
Aslan would act like we think he should", but "there is no Aslan,
period, or anything else we've never seen.") Still, without actually
checking the earlier books--weren't they the ones bringing in the black
witch and the werewolf in Prince Caspian, too?--it seems like their
main issue, aside from the clannishness, is consistently "we don't want
to follow this fantasy lion thing; we want to stick with power we can
*see*." I can see where you're getting the Jewish associations, but it
still seems to me that they are primarily total skeptics; their refusal
to see more than the confines of the stable seems fairly clear to me.

Carmen W.

Derek Janssen

unread,
Oct 18, 2005, 8:07:29 PM10/18/05
to
carmen....@gmail.com wrote:

>>Hmm. I suppose to map tightly to Jews they should accept the
>>Emperor-Over-the-Sea while rejecting Aslan; all I remember is their rejecting
>>Aslan. But they looked like a typical caricature of Jews, and served the
>>White Witch in _Wardrobe_, who *did* follow the Emperor's Law. (She demanded
>>Edmund under the Law; Aslan acknowledged her right but substituted himself,
>>and was sacrificed on the Law Table, which his death broke. It's Furry
>>Pauline Christianity.)
>
> I only rechecked a couple of scenes in "Last Battle," which were
> definitely about the denying of anything but themselves and what's
> inside their own head. (I.e. not just "this isn't Aslan, the real
> Aslan would act like we think he should", but "there is no Aslan,
> period, or anything else we've never seen.") Still, without actually
> checking the earlier books--weren't they the ones bringing in the black
> witch and the werewolf in Prince Caspian, too?

Nnnnn-not really, since we're looking about five books (and at least
several hundred fictional years) back, not to mention there's little
evidence that Nickabrick in PC wasn't just a solo loose-cannon...

> it seems like their
> main issue, aside from the clannishness, is consistently "we don't want
> to follow this fantasy lion thing; we want to stick with power we can
> *see*." I can see where you're getting the Jewish associations, but it
> still seems to me that they are primarily total skeptics; their refusal
> to see more than the confines of the stable seems fairly clear to me.

The LB were just average dwarfs who went cynical after bad experiences
with outsiders, and became symbolic of self-satisfied Smartypants
atheists--which Lewis had *much* more personal experience with--who
"wouldn't let themselves be fooled THIS time", and essentially walled
themselves in their *own* barn.

Derek Janssen
dja...@charter.net

Damien Sullivan

unread,
Oct 19, 2005, 12:34:55 AM10/19/05
to
"carmen....@gmail.com" <carmen....@gmail.com> wrote:

>witch and the werewolf in Prince Caspian, too?--it seems like their
>main issue, aside from the clannishness, is consistently "we don't want
>to follow this fantasy lion thing; we want to stick with power we can
>*see*." I can see where you're getting the Jewish associations, but it

Though wasn't Aslan a rather visible power?

Though even as a kid not picking up on the Christian-allegory stuff I was
bugged by his "have faith in me or else" in Prince Caspian.

-xx- Damien X-)

Old Toby

unread,
Oct 19, 2005, 2:29:44 AM10/19/05
to

So basically the Calormene are personifications of the "Oriental"
Other (in the Saidian sense), unmitigated by the need to have any
accurate reflection of the historical cultures on which they were
based. And their name looks like a variation on "coloured men".

A stereotype that's so important to Lewis that he has to create
an entire people to personify that. That's so much less racist
then simply making an identifiably "Arab" population a crude
racist caricature...


Old Toby
Least Known Dog on the Net

Lawrence Watt-Evans

unread,
Oct 19, 2005, 2:50:55 AM10/19/05
to
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 06:29:44 GMT, Old Toby
<tobiasbu...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>So basically the Calormene are personifications of the "Oriental"
>Other (in the Saidian sense), unmitigated by the need to have any
>accurate reflection of the historical cultures on which they were
>based.

Pretty much.

> And their name looks like a variation on "coloured men".

That, I think, is mere coincidence; in the first mention of them it's
spelled "Kalormene," and they're just the people a bunch of villains
sell slaves to. It's only later that they become pseudo-Orientals.

>A stereotype that's so important to Lewis that he has to create
>an entire people to personify that.

Creating an entire people really isn't a big deal for an author; it's
easy and fun. I don't think it implies that the stereotype was
important to Lewis. The story he wanted to tell required a
non-Christian [or rather, non-Aslanic] civilization, so he created one
that his readers would be able to appreciate without a lot of detailed
explanation, because they'd seen the stereotype in various Arabian
Nights-type stories. He was writing for mid-twentieth-century
children, after all, not for fantasy fans.

If you want to argue that this is casual, unthinking racism, you may
have a pretty good case. Saying that the racism was in any way
deliberate, or that it was important to Lewis, looks silly to me --
it's imposing modern attitudes on someone who did not live in modern
times. And Lewis was never one to transcend his surroundings.

--
Read the new Ethshar novel online! http://www.ethshar.com/thesprigganexperiment0.html

Jeff Urs

unread,
Oct 19, 2005, 2:56:58 AM10/19/05
to
Old Toby wrote:
> So basically the Calormene are personifications of the "Oriental"
> Other (in the Saidian sense), unmitigated by the need to have any
> accurate reflection of the historical cultures on which they were
> based. And their name looks like a variation on "coloured men".

Isn't "calor" Latin for heat?

--
Jeff

carmen....@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 19, 2005, 9:18:29 AM10/19/05
to

Damien Sullivan wrote:
> "carmen....@gmail.com" <carmen....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >witch and the werewolf in Prince Caspian, too?--it seems like their
> >main issue, aside from the clannishness, is consistently "we don't want
> >to follow this fantasy lion thing; we want to stick with power we can
> >*see*." I can see where you're getting the Jewish associations, but it
>
> Though wasn't Aslan a rather visible power?

Not at the points they were denying him, no. (Except at the very end
of The Last Battle, but by then the whole situation has moved out of
the rational arena.) It would have been "we heard Aslan did important
things once, but who knows whether that's true or not? None of us have
ever seen him, or any of his works." In Prince Caspian Nikabrik argues
that the White Witch must have been stronger because she killed
him--that stuff about his coming alive again is obviously propaganda.
*g*

Carmen W.

Mike Schilling

unread,
Oct 19, 2005, 11:07:22 AM10/19/05
to

"Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> wrote in message
news:dkqbl1944iv62crv2...@news.rcn.com...

> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 06:29:44 GMT, Old Toby
> <tobiasbu...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>> And their name looks like a variation on "coloured men".
>
> That, I think, is mere coincidence; in the first mention of them it's
> spelled "Kalormene," and they're just the people a bunch of villains
> sell slaves to. It's only later that they become pseudo-Orientals.

To me it connotes "People who live where it's hot".


Doug Weller

unread,
Oct 19, 2005, 12:25:03 PM10/19/05
to
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:47:52 -0400, in rec.arts.sf.written, Blake Hyde
wrote:

>blue...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious propaganda....'
>>
>

>Was I the only one who found Pullman's books underwhelming? I liked The
>Golden Compass, but The Subtle Knife was not very good at all, and I
>didn't finish The Amber Spyglass. Quite a disappointment; I thought TGC
>was one of the better "young adult" books I had read at the time. It
>had interesting ideas and an interesting setting.
>
>Followups have been directed to r.a.s.w, where they belong. Maybe it
>will drown out some of the Orson Scott Card traffic. ;)

I think they are brilliant -- I've just finished listening to him read the
full version (with the characters read by actors, I think from the theatre
production.) Listening I found was better than reading (I read them 2
years ago, I think I got more out of them this time).

Doug
--
Doug Weller -- exorcise the demon to reply
Doug & Helen's Dogs http://www.dougandhelen.com
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk


Richard R. Hershberger

unread,
Oct 19, 2005, 12:26:44 PM10/19/05
to

Derek Janssen wrote:
> Christopher J. Henrich wrote:
>
> > In article <1129553207.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,

> > <blue...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>'Narnia is corrupting, racist, mysonginistic religious propaganda....'
> >>
> >>Says whiny anti-christian jewish author Philip Pullman in a transparent
> >>effort to flog his own disturbing fantasy books on the back of the
> >>Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe hype.
> >>
> >
> > As far as I know, Mr. Pullman is not Jewish. It might have been better
> > if he were; the Jews that I know personally or by their writings often
> > display a plentiful fund of good sense, decency, and quiet self-mocking
> > humor. (Google for "Zen Judaism" . Enjoy!)
> >
> > His relation to Christianity is not simple antagonism. It is
> > complicated (muddled?) antagonism. As I understand it, he was much
> > influenced by his grandfather, who was a minister in the Church of
> > England.
>
> A particular breeding ground for snotty self-proclaimed "atheists" who
> crave the showoff spotlight for it:
> All the ritual and hierarchy of Catholicism without actually *being*
> Catholicism--and a heavily enforced emphasis on Guilt in a country with
> relatively few other options--tend to flatter the Angry Young into
> believing that they're throwing rocks at "all organized religion", when,
> in fact, they just haven't shopped around specific denominations.
> (Much the same as most of our statesiders who giggle over their own
> secular "mischief" usually trace back to the Baptist red-state
> belts...It's called "not getting out much".)

It seems to me that your characterization (specifically the ritual bit)
isn't accurate for Anglicanism generally, but only for the Oxford
Movement (aka "Anglo-Catholic") subset. I am more familiar with the
ECUSA than the CofE, so who knows?, but to the left of the pond the run
of the mill Episcopal church is not notably Catholic-like. (Neither
are the Anglo-Catholics, really, but only because their services are
essentially elaborate versions of pre-Vatican II Catholic masses, but
in English: more Catholic than the Catholics. You can't beat it for
ecclesiastical theater.)

Richard R. Hershberger

David Dyer-Bennet

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Oct 19, 2005, 2:37:05 PM10/19/05
to
"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes:

Especially with the other spelling, where the root "calorie" is pretty
obvious.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd...@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

Joe Pfeiffer

unread,
Oct 19, 2005, 2:45:22 PM10/19/05
to
"Richard R. Hershberger" <rrh...@acme.com> writes:
>
> It seems to me that your characterization (specifically the ritual bit)
> isn't accurate for Anglicanism generally, but only for the Oxford
> Movement (aka "Anglo-Catholic") subset. I am more familiar with the
> ECUSA than the CofE, so who knows?, but to the left of the pond the run
> of the mill Episcopal church is not notably Catholic-like. (Neither
> are the Anglo-Catholics, really, but only because their services are
> essentially elaborate versions of pre-Vatican II Catholic masses, but
> in English: more Catholic than the Catholics. You can't beat it for
> ecclesiastical theater.)

When I attended St. Mark's (Episcopal) Cathedral in Seattle for a
while, mass was very definitely very closely related to Catholic
mass.

Janet Puistonen

unread,
Oct 19, 2005, 3:31:39 PM10/19/05
to
Peter B. Juul wrote:

> In her story about the three wise men who came to the manger, she
> tells ud that one of them was a poor old man, the other a lepper (as
> far as I recall) and the third one a black man. It wouldn't surprise
> me, if she actually used "nigger" or somesuch word. In the end, the
> lepper is healthy and strong, the old man is young and rich and the
> black man is a beautiful white man.
>
> Written today? Horrific example of a narrow, racist mind, indeed.
>
> Written then? Not so. It is simply a product of its time.
>

Quite likely a product of its time, but a time when unthinking racism was
the norm.

To position leper/healthy, old and poor/young and rich, black/white as
equivalent changes in status is clearly to say that being black is at best
unfortunate.

Certainly, let's not brand the writer as a racist monster, but let's not
ignore the racism endemic in her society, either.


rrh...@acme.com

unread,
Oct 19, 2005, 5:24:54 PM10/19/05
to

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrh...@acme.com> writes:
> >
> > It seems to me that your characterization (specifically the ritual bit)
> > isn't accurate for Anglicanism generally, but only for the Oxford
> > Movement (aka "Anglo-Catholic") subset. I am more familiar with the
> > ECUSA than the CofE, so who knows?, but to the left of the pond the run
> > of the mill Episcopal church is not notably Catholic-like. (Neither
> > are the Anglo-Catholics, really, but only because their services are
> > essentially elaborate versions of pre-Vatican II Catholic masses, but
> > in English: more Catholic than the Catholics. You can't beat it for
> > ecclesiastical theater.)
>
> When I attended St. Mark's (Episcopal) Cathedral in Seattle for a
> while, mass was very definitely very closely related to Catholic
> mass.

I think we have a definition issue here. Yes, the Episcopal service is
closely related to the Catholic mass. So, for that matter, is the
service of my (Lutheran) church. In both cases, back in Reformation
days the two churches took the existing liturgy and purged anything
they considered bad doctrine, and left the rest alone. This is as
compared with other Protestants (e.g. the English Seperatists) who
considered the Catholic mass to be irredeemable and tossed it out
entirely, starting more or less from scratch. So any Anglican service
is structurally similar to a Catholic mass, especially compared with
what you will find at your local Pentacostal church. A high church
Anglican service will be very much like a Catholic mass, with the
Oxford Movement crowd self consciously at the extreme end, going for
all the trappings. But a low church Anglican service will eliminate
the smells and bells. The structure of the service is still the same,
but it would be unsatisfying to someone who craves ritualism but
doesn't want to be Catholic.

I suspect that what you found at the Seattle cathedral was at the high
church side of the spectrum, without quite reaching the Oxford Movement
extreme. (For what it is worth, most actual Roman Catholic masses
don't either, or even come close, nowadays.)

So my clarification was that we ought not lump all Anglican churches
together. There certainly are places there for those who want all the
ritual of Catholicism, but if you step into a randomly selected
Episcopal (or, I am guessing, CofE) parish, odds are that's not what
you will find.

Richard R. Hershberger

Kevin G. Rhoads

unread,
Oct 20, 2005, 7:29:35 AM10/20/05
to
>And for
>some of the media, a whiny rant is catnip.

And for much more of it/them, a whiny rant is crack-cocaine.

Joe Pfeiffer

unread,
Oct 20, 2005, 10:44:01 AM10/20/05
to
rrh...@acme.com writes:

> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> > "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrh...@acme.com> writes:

<snip a lot of good information>

> all the trappings. But a low church Anglican service will eliminate
> the smells and bells. The structure of the service is still the same,
> but it would be unsatisfying to someone who craves ritualism but
> doesn't want to be Catholic.

The Catholic mass has also mutated quite a bit over time -- we almost
never have smells nor bells any more, either (see below).

> I suspect that what you found at the Seattle cathedral was at the high
> church side of the spectrum, without quite reaching the Oxford Movement
> extreme. (For what it is worth, most actual Roman Catholic masses
> don't either, or even come close, nowadays.)

Exactly. With the result that a reasonably current Episcopal service
isa *lot* like a Catholic mass; I doubt the variation between low and
high Anglican would be much more extreme that the difference between
an informal Catholic parish near a university (my current parish is
the Newman Center for New Mexico State University) and a large,
conservative, urban parish.

> So my clarification was that we ought not lump all Anglican churches
> together. There certainly are places there for those who want all the
> ritual of Catholicism, but if you step into a randomly selected
> Episcopal (or, I am guessing, CofE) parish, odds are that's not what
> you will find.

I may be underestimating the variation among Episcopals; I suspect
you're underestimating the variations among Catholics.

rrh...@acme.com

unread,
Oct 20, 2005, 11:45:40 AM10/20/05
to

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> rrh...@acme.com writes:
>
> > So my clarification was that we ought not lump all Anglican churches
> > together. There certainly are places there for those who want all the
> > ritual of Catholicism, but if you step into a randomly selected
> > Episcopal (or, I am guessing, CofE) parish, odds are that's not what
> > you will find.
>
> I may be underestimating the variation among Episcopals; I suspect
> you're underestimating the variations among Catholics.

No, but I was being sloppy. (I have had unusually great exposure to
Catholic masses over the years. One of my professors in college was
also the music direct at Mission Santa Barbara and he would tip me off
when they had something good coming up. That was at the high end of
the liturgical spectrum. Since then I taught for a year in a Catholic
school and my wife of three years is Catholic, so I have had exposure
to the more typical parish church.) I should have written "ritual of
pre-Vatican II Catholicism". Even that may not really be accurate. I
can't honestly say what a typical Catholic mass c. 1950 was like other
than in general terms. So I was making the error of equating
"Catholic" with "lots of ritual" even though I know better.

As for the range of variation among Episcopal parishes (I subject I
also have experience with, and I'll take communion in an Episcopal
church) this can be really quite startling. If you go looking for
them, you can find Episcopalians who edge toward Pentacostalism. I
suspect this is true of Catholics as well, but I haven't run across
this. At the Oxford Movement end of the spectrum, I honestly have
never been to a Catholic mass that goes all-out they way the Oxfords do
routinely.

Richard R. Hershberger

Joe Pfeiffer

unread,
Oct 20, 2005, 1:54:47 PM10/20/05
to
rrh...@acme.com writes:

> to the more typical parish church.) I should have written "ritual of
> pre-Vatican II Catholicism". Even that may not really be accurate. I
> can't honestly say what a typical Catholic mass c. 1950 was like other
> than in general terms. So I was making the error of equating
> "Catholic" with "lots of ritual" even though I know better.

OK, now I think we're on the same page. Growing up in the 1960s there
were always bells, and smells when the pastor felt like putting on a
show (while my parents complained about how informal things had
gotten). Now, there are no bells and smells are pretty unusual.

> As for the range of variation among Episcopal parishes (I subject I
> also have experience with, and I'll take communion in an Episcopal
> church) this can be really quite startling. If you go looking for
> them, you can find Episcopalians who edge toward Pentacostalism. I
> suspect this is true of Catholics as well, but I haven't run across
> this.

I have -- the ones I've known have referred to themselves as "Catholic
Charismatics."

> At the Oxford Movement end of the spectrum, I honestly have
> never been to a Catholic mass that goes all-out they way the Oxfords do
> routinely.

I've never been to an Oxford Movement mass, but from your descriptions
that doesn't surprise me a bit.

(I should mention that I am a practicing Catholic, and that in college
I also attended an Assembly of God campus outreach. My wife was
raised a Southern Baptist, so looking for a compromise we went to the
Episcopal church for a while. Eventually we both decided we were more
comfortable with the Catholics)

rrh...@acme.com

unread,
Oct 20, 2005, 5:01:26 PM10/20/05
to

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> rrh...@acme.com writes:

> > At the Oxford Movement end of the spectrum, I honestly have
> > never been to a Catholic mass that goes all-out they way the Oxfords do
> > routinely.
>
> I've never been to an Oxford Movement mass, but from your descriptions
> that doesn't surprise me a bit.

Just to give a taste of what I'm talking about, a couple of years ago I
attended Evensong one Sunday at Saint Clement's in Philadelphia. They
had multiple priests and acolytes, all the smells and bells you could
ask for, a full procession, a mid-service procession to the side altar
dedicated to Mary, prayers to her (in which the words "immaculately
conceived" came out of the priest's mouth: a post-Reformation doctrine
no Protestant church accepts), a procession back to the main altar, and
so on, all perfectly choreographed and flawlessly executed. The thing
of it is that this was not a special occasion, or even their main
Sunday service. They did this every week. As an exercise in
ecclesiastical theater it was amazing. Was it an act of worship? I
don't make it my business to tell others what should be meaningful
worship for them; and I would certainly choose it over, say, a Praise
music service. But I couldn't quite get past the sense that this was a
performance by frustrated stage actors who had found a different
outlet.

Richard R. Hershberger

Joe Pfeiffer

unread,
Oct 21, 2005, 2:56:29 AM10/21/05
to
rrh...@acme.com writes:
>
> > > At the Oxford Movement end of the spectrum, I honestly have
> > > never been to a Catholic mass that goes all-out they way the Oxfords do
> > > routinely.
> >
> > I've never been to an Oxford Movement mass, but from your descriptions
> > that doesn't surprise me a bit.
>
> Just to give a taste of what I'm talking about, a couple of years ago I
> attended Evensong one Sunday at Saint Clement's in Philadelphia. They
> had multiple priests and acolytes, all the smells and bells you could
> ask for, a full procession, a mid-service procession to the side altar
> dedicated to Mary, prayers to her (in which the words "immaculately
> conceived" came out of the priest's mouth: a post-Reformation doctrine
> no Protestant church accepts), a procession back to the main altar,
> and

(while AFAIK you're right that no Protestant denomination accepts the
doctrine, it is definitely pre-Reformation. googlegooglegoogle
St. Proclus makes one of the clearer statements, saying "she was
formed without any stain.")

> so on, all perfectly choreographed and flawlessly executed. The thing
> of it is that this was not a special occasion, or even their main
> Sunday service. They did this every week. As an exercise in
> ecclesiastical theater it was amazing. Was it an act of worship? I
> don't make it my business to tell others what should be meaningful
> worship for them; and I would certainly choose it over, say, a Praise
> music service. But I couldn't quite get past the sense that this was a
> performance by frustrated stage actors who had found a different
> outlet.

I'd probably wonder about that as well... though I'd be very
interested in attending such a service. I've got a strong feeling my
parents would have found such a service much more satisfying than any
Catholic mass they attended in the last three decades of their lives.

And as for frustrated actors... go take a look at my web page. I
haven't updated the acting galleries in quite a while; some of the
roles that aren't in there are Claudius in "Hamlet", the title role(s)
in "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde", Stephen Girard in "The Insanity of Mary
Girard", and Senex in "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum,"
all in local community theatre. Continuing the trend in the first
three plays I mentioned there, when a local Presbyterian church
decided to do a Last Supper reenactment last Maundy Thursday, I played
Judas.

Dan Drake

unread,
Oct 21, 2005, 4:48:32 PM10/21/05
to
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:56:29 UTC, Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu>
wrote:

>
> (while AFAIK you're right that no Protestant denomination accepts the
> doctrine, it is definitely pre-Reformation. googlegooglegoogle
> St. Proclus makes one of the clearer statements, saying "she was
> formed without any stain.")

I can't give a reference after all these years, but I once saw text from a
letter from an Italian(?) churchman of the 14th century or earlier to an
English colleague, in which he shrugged off the idea of the Immaculate
Conception as an odd idea of the English. Well before the Reformation,
but looking kind of odd now.


--
Dan Drake
d...@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com

Tim Bruening

unread,
Jan 3, 2006, 6:22:11 PM1/3/06
to

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

Did she go to RCIA (Ritual of Christian Initiation of Adults)?

Cori

unread,
Jan 5, 2006, 8:43:21 PM1/5/06
to
>From what I've read of this Philip Pullman character, he has all the
answers and all the antidotes to the C. S. Lewis viewpoint? And, it
seems, at least some influential following on his side, as he's won
awards doing this.

Cori

Christopher J. Henrich

unread,
Jan 5, 2006, 10:36:48 PM1/5/06
to
In article <1136511801.0...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Cori <cmashiel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

If he has won awards,I think they are due to his own merits, which are
substantial. (I speak as a lifelong fan of C. S. Lewis.)

Mr. Pullman does not show himself at his best in his anti-Narnia
polemic.

--
Chris Henrich
http://www.mathinteract.com
God just doesn't fit inside a single religion.

Steve Hayes

unread,
Jan 6, 2006, 1:55:40 AM1/6/06
to
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 03:36:48 GMT, "Christopher J. Henrich"
<chen...@monmouth.com> wrote:

>In article <1136511801.0...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>Cori <cmashiel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >From what I've read of this Philip Pullman character, he has all the
>> answers and all the antidotes to the C. S. Lewis viewpoint? And, it
>> seems, at least some influential following on his side, as he's won
>> awards doing this.
>>
>> Cori
>>
>If he has won awards,I think they are due to his own merits, which are
>substantial. (I speak as a lifelong fan of C. S. Lewis.)
>
>Mr. Pullman does not show himself at his best in his anti-Narnia
>polemic.

Mr Pullman's comments on Narnia give the distinct impression os sour grapes.

He'd do better trying to improve his own writing than denigrating that of
other people. C.S. Lewis was a far better literary critic than Pullman, and I
suspect would have seen some merit in Pullman's work.


--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius

westprog

unread,
Jan 6, 2006, 10:15:00 AM1/6/06
to

"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9u4sr15phi2ebkdcs...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 03:36:48 GMT, "Christopher J. Henrich"
> <chen...@monmouth.com> wrote:

> >> >From what I've read of this Philip Pullman character, he has all the
> >> answers and all the antidotes to the C. S. Lewis viewpoint? And, it
> >> seems, at least some influential following on his side, as he's won
> >> awards doing this.

> >If he has won awards,I think they are due to his own merits, which are


> >substantial. (I speak as a lifelong fan of C. S. Lewis.)

> >Mr. Pullman does not show himself at his best in his anti-Narnia
> >polemic.

> Mr Pullman's comments on Narnia give the distinct impression os sour
grapes.

> He'd do better trying to improve his own writing than denigrating that of
> other people. C.S. Lewis was a far better literary critic than Pullman,
and I
> suspect would have seen some merit in Pullman's work.

It seems a bit unfair to criticise Lewis for writing religious propaganda,
when Pullman's major work is largely anti-religious propaganda. That doesn't
reflect on the merits of his writing, just his position as a critic.

J/


Cori

unread,
Jan 6, 2006, 3:07:14 PM1/6/06
to
From: "westprog" <westp...@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:15:00 -0000

> It seems a bit unfair to criticise Lewis for writing religious propaganda, when Pullman's major work is largely anti-religious propaganda. That doesn't reflect on the merits of his writing, just his position as a critic.

J/

Without having read Mr. Pullman's works, that's exactly the impression
I got: not just that he has spouted off publicly about Lewis, but that
the BOOKS THEMSELVES were written as a deliberate rebuttal to or attack
upon Lewis's works. I will read them when and if I get heavily into
the Carnegie medal winners. As soon as I read about five more books
I'll have finished off the Newbery gold medal winners, but have plenty
else to read!

Cori

westprog

unread,
Jan 6, 2006, 5:14:38 PM1/6/06
to

"Cori" <cmashiel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136578034.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> > It seems a bit unfair to criticise Lewis for writing religious
propaganda, when Pullman's major work is largely anti-religious propaganda.
That doesn't reflect on the merits of his writing, just his position as a
critic.

> Without having read Mr. Pullman's works, that's exactly the impression


> I got: not just that he has spouted off publicly about Lewis, but that
> the BOOKS THEMSELVES were written as a deliberate rebuttal to or attack
> upon Lewis's works.

No bad thing in itself. The Forever War was in part a response to Starship
Troopers. Angry writers producing rebuttals can produce good stuff, if it
isn't just replying paragraph by paragraph.

> I will read them when and if I get heavily into
> the Carnegie medal winners. As soon as I read about five more books
> I'll have finished off the Newbery gold medal winners, but have plenty
> else to read!

Has anyone reached the stage of saying "No, that's enough, I'll wait for
someone to write something"?

J/


Steve Hayes

unread,
Jan 6, 2006, 11:18:49 PM1/6/06
to
On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:15:00 -0000, "westprog" <west...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

>> He'd do better trying to improve his own writing than denigrating that of
>> other people. C.S. Lewis was a far better literary critic than Pullman,
>and I
>> suspect would have seen some merit in Pullman's work.
>
>It seems a bit unfair to criticise Lewis for writing religious propaganda,
>when Pullman's major work is largely anti-religious propaganda. That doesn't
>reflect on the merits of his writing, just his position as a critic.

If his books were significantly better than Lewis's, it might look less like
sour grapes, but they are not. So I think his position as writer and critic
are interrelated. He accuses Lewis of being preachy, but is far more preachy
in his books.

Graeme

unread,
Jan 8, 2006, 6:58:07 PM1/8/06
to

Steve Hayes wrote:
> If his books were significantly better than Lewis's, it might look less like
> sour grapes, but they are not. So I think his position as writer and critic
> are interrelated. He accuses Lewis of being preachy, but is far more preachy
> in his books.


Pullman's an obsessive fanatic. You could no more expect an objective
critique of Lewis from him than you could expect an objective critique
of Moby Dick from Captain Ahab. Best to look for a sober critique of
Lewis elsewhere.

Gene Ward Smith

unread,
Jan 9, 2006, 1:03:21 PM1/9/06
to

westprog wrote:

> No bad thing in itself. The Forever War was in part a response to Starship
> Troopers. Angry writers producing rebuttals can produce good stuff, if it
> isn't just replying paragraph by paragraph.

And Banewreaker was a response to Tolkien, which didn't improve the
writing any--in fact, stylistically the result was a disaster.

What are some of the sf books which came about as a reply to others? Of
course more general sorts of responses, such as The Iron Dream, are
interesting also.

scott...@yahoo.com

unread,
Jan 9, 2006, 1:14:08 PM1/9/06
to

Not really SF, but Lord of the Flies was a response to a Utopian novel
titled Coral Island, also about a group of boys stranded on an island.

Steve Hayes

unread,
Jan 9, 2006, 1:55:14 PM1/9/06
to
On 9 Jan 2006 10:14:08 -0800, "scott...@yahoo.com" <scott...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

And "Foe" was a response to "Robinson Crusoe", though not really a children's
book.

But I don't think Pullman's books relate to Lewis's in the same way as
Golding's does to Ballantyne's. In the latter the kids are marooned on a
desert island, and the island environments are similar.

Pullman and Lewis both have children travelling to different worlds, but the
environments are very dissimilar.

Dan Drake

unread,
Jan 9, 2006, 3:10:01 PM1/9/06
to
On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:03:21 UTC, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewa...@gmail.com> wrote:

>...


>
> What are some of the sf books which came about as a reply to others? Of
> course more general sorts of responses, such as The Iron Dream, are
> interesting also.

Heinlein is said to have described _Stranger in a Strange Land_ as his
reponse to his own fascist utopia [his term, supposedly] in _Starship
Soldier_ or Trooper or whatever it was.

Mike Van Pelt

unread,
Jan 9, 2006, 7:09:39 PM1/9/06
to
In article <vhIsdqY67dTD-pn2-xnYFjOcPrCex@localhost>,

Dan Drake <d...@dandrake.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:03:21 UTC, "Gene Ward Smith"
><genewa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> What are some of the sf books which came about as a reply to others?
>
>Heinlein is said to have described _Stranger in a Strange Land_ as his
>reponse to his own fascist utopia [his term, supposedly] in _Starship
>Soldier_ or Trooper or whatever it was.

Said by whom?

Heinlein, in "Expanded Universe", responds to the conception
that "Starship Troopers" was a fascist novel with withering
contempt. He said, IIRC, that people who claim that "Starship
Troopers" is a fascist novel demonstrate that they are unable
to read clear, declarative English sentences.


--
Tagon: "Where's your sense of adventure?" | Mike Van Pelt
Kevyn: "It died under mysterious circumstances. | mvp at calweb.com
My sense of self-preservation found the body, | KE6BVH
but assures me it has an airtight alibi." (schlockmercenary.com)

Benjamin Adams

unread,
Jan 9, 2006, 7:19:29 PM1/9/06
to
"Gene Ward Smith" <genewa...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1136829801.3...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> What are some of the sf books which came about as a reply to others?
> Of course more general sorts of responses, such as The Iron Dream, are
> interesting also.
>

Resnick's _Birthright: The Book of Man_ makes an interesting
comparison to Asimov's Foundation series.

-Ben Adams

Sea Wasp

unread,
Jan 10, 2006, 8:44:40 AM1/10/06
to

> "Gene Ward Smith" <genewa...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:1136829801.3...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>>What are some of the sf books which came about as a reply to others?
>>Of course more general sorts of responses, such as The Iron Dream, are
>>interesting also.

"Digital Knight" was partly a response to the "Everything Has To Stay
The Same" bit in most SF/F series -- books or movies. That's less
prevalent now, but at the time the stories started being written it
was pretty much The Way.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/

Michael Stemper

unread,
Jan 11, 2006, 1:23:41 PM1/11/06
to
In article <43c2fb43$0$76021$d36...@news.calweb.com>, Mike Van Pelt writes:
>In article <vhIsdqY67dTD-pn2-xnYFjOcPrCex@localhost>, Dan Drake <d...@dandrake.com> wrote:

>>Heinlein is said to have described _Stranger in a Strange Land_ as his
>>reponse to his own fascist utopia [his term, supposedly] in _Starship
>>Soldier_ or Trooper or whatever it was.
>
>Said by whom?
>
>Heinlein, in "Expanded Universe", responds to the conception
>that "Starship Troopers" was a fascist novel with withering
>contempt. He said, IIRC, that people who claim that "Starship
>Troopers" is a fascist novel demonstrate that they are unable
>to read clear, declarative English sentences.

Althugh I agree that ST isn't a "fascist novel", the source you're quoting
is somewhat less than reliable. It's the afterword to "Who are the Heirs
of Patrick Henry?", right? In that (possibly within a paragraph or two),
he also says "In _Starship Troopers_, it is stated flatly and more than
once that nineteen out of twenty veterans are not military veterans."

Since *nobody* has ever been able to unearth even one of these statements,
this afterword doesn't reflect very well on RAH's ability "to read clear,
declarative English sentences."

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
2 + 2 = 5, for sufficiently large values of 2

Dr. Dave

unread,
Jan 11, 2006, 4:47:07 PM1/11/06
to

If what was done to SiaSL by its editor is any indication, Heinlein
could easily have included such statements in the novel he wrote,
without having any of them survive into the novel that was published.
I suspect that authors are very bad at remembering things like "which
of the things I know I included in some draft or other actually
survived into the published book?".

David Tate

Dan Drake

unread,
Jan 11, 2006, 9:29:01 PM1/11/06
to
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:09:39 UTC, m...@web1.calweb.com (Mike Van Pelt)
wrote:

> In article <vhIsdqY67dTD-pn2-xnYFjOcPrCex@localhost>,
> Dan Drake <d...@dandrake.com> wrote:
> >On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:03:21 UTC, "Gene Ward Smith"
> ><genewa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> What are some of the sf books which came about as a reply to others?
> >
> >Heinlein is said to have described _Stranger in a Strange Land_ as his
> >reponse to his own fascist utopia [his term, supposedly] in _Starship
> >Soldier_ or Trooper or whatever it was.
>
> Said by whom?

By a usually reliable source, who would appear in this instance to have
been wrong. Or misunderstood, to be sure.

>
> Heinlein, in "Expanded Universe", responds to the conception
> that "Starship Troopers" was a fascist novel with withering
> contempt. He said, IIRC, that people who claim that "Starship
> Troopers" is a fascist novel demonstrate that they are unable
> to read clear, declarative English sentences.
>
>


--

peterw...@hotmail.com

unread,
Jan 12, 2006, 5:14:28 PM1/12/06
to

Harry Harrison's _Bill the Galactic Hero_ and Gordon Dickson's _Naked
to the Stars_ are both replies to _Starship Troopers_.

Fritz Leiber's _Gather, Darkness_ is a reply to Heinlein's _Sixth
Column_.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

Severian

unread,
Jan 12, 2006, 5:34:57 PM1/12/06
to
On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 06:18:49 +0200, Steve Hayes
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>If his books were significantly better than Lewis's, it might look less like
>sour grapes, but they are not. So I think his position as writer and critic
>are interrelated. He accuses Lewis of being preachy, but is far more preachy
>in his books.

Or in the the second and third, at least. "Northern Lights" stunned me
when I first read it - there's no preaching at all,the theology is
implicit, and it unfolds in a way that's natural and consistent with
Lyra's world.

I got progressively disappointed with the others to the point that I
thought I'd fooled myself how good the first was - until I went back
to read it again.

Steve Hayes

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Jan 12, 2006, 9:34:46 PM1/12/06
to
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 22:34:57 +0000, Severian <severian22000.at.yahoo.co.uk@>
wrote:

Yes, I agree with the progression.

I enjoyed "Northern lights", though I found the ending a bit unsatisfactory. I
also anyoyed "The subtle knife".

But I found "The amber spyglass" very disappointing. Not only was it preachy,
but it seemed highly inconsistent. The journey through the Land of the Dead
was downright boring. The last one who did that sort of thing well was Virgil.
Tolkien tried it in "Lord of the rings", and it was one of the weakes parts of
the book. In Pullman's book it was just banal.

But after all Pullman's increasingly shrill rants against Christian
asceticism, one expected that he was leading up to a "they got married and
lived happily ever after" ending, and instead he has his protagonists opt for
something almost indistiguishable from what he had been ranting against all
through the books. So the book didn't end, it just fell apart.

Tim Bruening

unread,
Jan 16, 2006, 4:06:28 PM1/16/06
to

Mark Atwood wrote:

> p...@enzym.rnd.uni-c.dk (Peter B. Juul) writes:
> >
> > He doesn't give talking monkeys much of a chance, either.
>
> Heh.
>
> | "Ape,"
> | he cried with a great voice.
> | "You lie.
> | You lie damnably.
> | You lie like a Calormene.
> | You lie like an Ape."
> -- King Tirian, _The Last Battle_

So here we have an anti-Calormene slur on top of an anti-Ape slur!

Tim Bruening

unread,
Jan 16, 2006, 4:08:43 PM1/16/06
to

Derek Janssen wrote:

> Dr. Dave wrote:
> >
> >>Well, at least the racism is, frankly, a reasonable claim. Read the
> >>descriptions of the calormene. They are very much a caricature of
> >>arabs.
>
> (Or just a personal "Weren't the Crusades *cool*?" knight fan-geekhood
> that dated back to Lewis's childhood.)
>
> > It's an awfully fond caricature, by the time you get to _The Last
> > Battle_. The young Calormene officer is probably the most sympathetic
> > character to make it to paradise, after all -- and make it he does, on
> > the "true worship is deity-independent" theory that is rankest heresy
> > among Christians.
>
> Depends which Christians--
> "All find what they truly seek" is the accepted message of interfaith
> tolerance.

In "Prince Caspian", we have Maenads helping a girl take off her unnecessary
clothes (but not all her clothes).

Tim Bruening

unread,
Jan 16, 2006, 4:12:46 PM1/16/06
to

"Peter B. Juul" wrote:

> Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
>
> > Yes, but it's demonstrated (in The Last Battle, IIRC) that a Calormene
> > who lives according to Aslan's teachings, without ever having heard of
> > Aslan, is as much a child of Aslan as anybody else.
>
> Absolutely. So murderers, traitors and calormene can all get saved :-)

I did read of a Dwarf being saved who had fired arrows at Talking Horses
during the Last Battle. As for traitors, Edmund repented long ago.

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