Eddings and Feist ?
Ivor O'Connor
happily ever after, but that was years ago. If I remember right the
dragon died in some fight and pug left to handle god like subjects
like first forces and such...
Rock...@cris.com (Stryker) wrote:
>In article <46cphs$p...@mirv.unsw.edu.au>, jivr...@cse.unsw.edu.au (Mujo Tateno) says:
>>
>>45rhk8$k...@news2.aimnet.com> <45rukg$h...@moose.erie.net>
>>Distribution:
>>
>>: Excellent book. It really shows a human side to Roo, and gets things
>>: moving! One of the better fantasy books I've read so far. I was a little
>>: disappointed with some of Feist's other books (just couldn't seem to get
>>: into them), but this series ROCKS!
>>
>>Sorry to stagger in as a newbie, but is this the sequel to "Shadow of a Dark
>>Queen"? Roo as in Rupert Avery? Corporal (soon will be) Erik's friend?
>>BTW just finished reading SoDQ.
>Yup, it's Roo. He is the star of _Rise of a Merchant Prine_. I liked the
>book, but I wished it could have been longer:)
>>I've also read other of Feist's stories, and to be honest, I haven't really
>>liked the "main" character of each book. If to rank the characters, I find
>>Nakor to be best. Followed by Captain Amos. Pug seems to be just a tag along
>>to the book after Magician.
>Pug does seem TOO POWERFUL recently to be more than a supporting
>character. The only ones I can see him fighting are gods. This
>kind of limits him as a charater. I too like Nakor. You'll be
>pleased with _Rise_ as he plays a major role:)
Stryker
>
>So has Feist come out with a new book? Last I knew Pug was living
>happily ever after, but that was years ago. If I remember right the
>dragon died in some fight and pug left to handle god like subjects
>like first forces and such...
Ha, he is even MORE powerful in the new books. This is why Feist
puts him on an island dallying with a sorceress named Miranda
(who is also extraordinarily powerful, which is why so many have
speculated she is Macros' daughter) for the ENTIRE book.
The trouble is these characters, they are just TOO powerful.
There are demigods in Greek myths that do not approach these
characters in terms of raw power. They are no longer interesting
because of this. All Pug has to do is point, and the battle is
over. Too bad, I liked Pug in Magician.
Terry Butler
>So has Feist come out with a new book? Last I knew Pug was living
>happily ever after, but that was years ago. If I remember right the
>dragon died in some fight and pug left to handle god like subjects
>like first forces and such...
>
>
>
>>In article <46cphs$p...@mirv.unsw.edu.au>, jivr...@cse.unsw.edu.au (Mujo Tateno) says:
>>>
>>>45rhk8$k...@news2.aimnet.com> <45rukg$h...@moose.erie.net>
>>>Distribution:
>>>
>>>: Excellent book. It really shows a human side to Roo, and gets things
>>>: moving! One of the better fantasy books I've read so far. I was a little
>>>: disappointed with some of Feist's other books (just couldn't seem to get
>>>: into them), but this series ROCKS!
>>>
>>>Sorry to stagger in as a newbie, but is this the sequel to "Shadow of a Dark
>>>Queen"? Roo as in Rupert Avery? Corporal (soon will be) Erik's friend?
>>>BTW just finished reading SoDQ.
>
>>Yup, it's Roo. He is the star of _Rise of a Merchant Prine_. I liked the
>>book, but I wished it could have been longer:)
>
>
>>>I've also read other of Feist's stories, and to be honest, I haven't really
>>>liked the "main" character of each book. If to rank the characters, I find
>>>Nakor to be best. Followed by Captain Amos. Pug seems to be just a tag along
>>>to the book after Magician.
>
>>Pug does seem TOO POWERFUL recently to be more than a supporting
>>character. The only ones I can see him fighting are gods. This
>>kind of limits him as a charater. I too like Nakor. You'll be
>>pleased with _Rise_ as he plays a major role:)
>
>
disagree with you about Pug being a supporting character. He is the
central character of both series. Also, I happened to love the characters
in all the other books, especially Arutha and Locklear. I admit I cryed
when they died. I grew to think of those characters as I do my own family.
But, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion so....
Joe Butler
Terry Butler
>In article <4h9v9k$g...@salyko.cube.net>, oco...@cublx1.cube.net says...
>>
>>So has Feist come out with a new book? Last I knew Pug was living
>>happily ever after, but that was years ago. If I remember right the
>>dragon died in some fight and pug left to handle god like subjects
>>like first forces and such...
>
>
>
>puts him on an island dallying with a sorceress named Miranda
>(who is also extraordinarily powerful, which is why so many have
>speculated she is Macros' daughter) for the ENTIRE book.
>The trouble is these characters, they are just TOO powerful.
>There are demigods in Greek myths that do not approach these
>characters in terms of raw power. They are no longer interesting
>because of this. All Pug has to do is point, and the battle is
>over. Too bad, I liked Pug in Magician.
>
>
the Emerald Queen, the Pantathians,& the Saurr have more power than Pug
does. So it could turn out to be a major magical battle, which would be
awesome. I still think Pug is an interesting character. What he needs to
do is go back to Kelewan to see how things are there. -Joe
Nadim van der Ros
>
> So has Feist come out with a new book? Last I knew Pug was living
> happily ever after, but that was years ago. If I remember right the
> dragon died in some fight and pug left to handle god like subjects
> like first forces and such...
>
>
> >In article <46cphs$p...@mirv.unsw.edu.au>, jivr...@cse.unsw.edu.au (Mujo Tateno) says:
> >>
> >>45rhk8$k...@news2.aimnet.com> <45rukg$h...@moose.erie.net>
> >>Distribution:
> >>
> >>: Excellent book. It really shows a human side to Roo, and gets things
> >>: moving! One of the better fantasy books I've read so far. I was a little
> >>: disappointed with some of Feist's other books (just couldn't seem to get
> >>: into them), but this series ROCKS!
> >>
> >>Sorry to stagger in as a newbie, but is this the sequel to "Shadow of a Dark
> >>Queen"? Roo as in Rupert Avery? Corporal (soon will be) Erik's friend?
> >>BTW just finished reading SoDQ.
>
> >Yup, it's Roo. He is the star of _Rise of a Merchant Prine_. I liked the
> >book, but I wished it could have been longer:)
>
> >>I've also read other of Feist's stories, and to be honest, I haven't really
> >>liked the "main" character of each book. If to rank the characters, I find
> >>Nakor to be best. Followed by Captain Amos. Pug seems to be just a tag along
> >>to the book after Magician.
>
> >Pug does seem TOO POWERFUL recently to be more than a supporting
> >character. The only ones I can see him fighting are gods. This
> >kind of limits him as a charater. I too like Nakor. You'll be
> >pleased with _Rise_ as he plays a major role:)
Dealing with Godlike characters is a very tricky subject. What's the fun
in having a character that can deal out pure power at the "push off a
button"? Pug should be a secondary character, the way the main characters
meet a merchant or shady contact in a bar. Nothing more nothing less.
We shouldnt see him and his activities as we should a main character.
Unless of course, we see his limitations and his failings/struggles.
Perhaps Pug should lose his powers, and his knowledge or something. Pug
has become equal to a god, and gods are best left up there, so to speak.
Scott Silvey
] happily ever after, but that was years ago. If I remember right the
] dragon died in some fight and pug left to handle god like subjects
] like first forces and such...
] >In article <46cphs$p...@mirv.unsw.edu.au>, jivr...@cse.unsw.edu.au (Mujo Tat
eno) says:
] >>
] >>: Excellent book. It really shows a human side to Roo, and gets things
] >>: moving! One of the better fantasy books I've read so far. I was a little
] >>: disappointed with some of Feist's other books (just couldn't seem to get
] >>: into them), but this series ROCKS!
Say, which particular book are we talking about here?
I've read Feist's first 5 starting from Magician and considered all of
them quite mediocre, really. Has he really gotten better in terms of
literary quality or is this particular book you guys are talking about
just more entertaining than usual?
Scott
Christopher Smith
> I've read Feist's first 5 starting from Magician and considered all of
> them quite mediocre, really. Has he really gotten better in terms of
> literary quality or is this particular book you guys are talking about
> just more entertaining than usual?
You seem to be a bit behind :-)
Feist is currently writing the 8th book in the 'series' (the term is used
loosely). the first 7 are as follows
1a. Magician (1st of rift war saga)
1b. Magician (revised edition with ~15,000 extra words)
2. Silverthorn (2nd of rift war saga)
3. Darkness at Sethanon (3rd of rift war saga)
4. Prince of the Blood (stand alone)
5. Kings Buccaneer (stand alone)
6. Shadow of a Dark Queen (1st of serpent war saga)
7. Rise of a Merchant Prince (2nd of serpent war saga)
It is the last book that is being talked about.
I have always liked his books and have never considered them mediocre, I
would be interested to hear your arguments, if you have any.
Later.
**************************************************************************
* Chris Smith - Part II B.Sc. Computer Science at Southampton University *
*------------------------------------------------------------------------*
* email: cj...@ecs.soton.ac.uk or cjs...@soton.ac.uk *
* HTTP://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~cjs94/ *
*------------------------------------------------------------------------*
* "Father forgive me, for I have just killed quite a few men." *
* - Desperado *
**************************************************************************
Christopher Smith
> Dealing with Godlike characters is a very tricky subject. What's the fun
> in having a character that can deal out pure power at the "push off a
> button"? Pug should be a secondary character, the way the main characters
> meet a merchant or shady contact in a bar. Nothing more nothing less.
> We shouldnt see him and his activities as we should a main character.
> Unless of course, we see his limitations and his failings/struggles.
> Perhaps Pug should lose his powers, and his knowledge or something. Pug
> has become equal to a god, and gods are best left up there, so to speak.
One way to limit his powers is to make them useless to a particular
situation, a bit like the way Macros was trapped in the City Forever (I
know his powers were remove by the Valheru, but you get the idea). It
would be interesting to see how Pug would get out of the situation
without his powers.
I agree that Pug is a bit powerful, but remember there are things that he
can't do; for example, some have said that Pug isn't as powerful as
Macros and even he needed help to close the rift.
Feist is doing well with Pug I think; he has put him into a non-combat
position so that his role is using his knowledge to solve various puzzles.
Michael Omotayo Akinde
>Rock...@cris.com (Stryker) wrote:
[...Pugs Power...]
>I agree. Pug is too powerful, but on the other hand the combined forces of
>the Emerald Queen, the Pantathians,& the Saurr have more power than Pug
>does. So it could turn out to be a major magical battle, which would be
>awesome. I still think Pug is an interesting character. What he needs to
>do is go back to Kelewan to see how things are there. -Joe
Last I heard of Kelewan things were doing fine - what with Mara being
Mistress of the Empire and such. :-)
Waiting for Merchant Prince to reach paperback here...sigh.
Regards
Michael.
Stryker
>
>Rock...@cris.com (Stryker) wrote:
>>In article <4h9v9k$g...@salyko.cube.net>, oco...@cublx1.cube.net says...
>I agree. Pug is too powerful, but on the other hand the combined forces of
>the Emerald Queen, the Pantathians,& the Saurr have more power than Pug
>does. So it could turn out to be a major magical battle, which would be
>awesome. I still think Pug is an interesting character. What he needs to
>do is go back to Kelewan to see how things are there. -Joe
I agree Pug back on Kelewan would be AWESOME!!!, but alas Ray is done with
that world. He has stated that that Rift will close and Kelewan will be
a distant memory:( Of course he doesn't say *when* that will happen:)
T. Buckley
: On 4 Mar 1996, Scott Silvey wrote:
: > I've read Feist's first 5 starting from Magician and considered all of
: > them quite mediocre, really. Has he really gotten better in terms of
: > literary quality or is this particular book you guys are talking about
: > just more entertaining than usual?
: You seem to be a bit behind :-)
: Feist is currently writing the 8th book in the 'series' (the term is used
: loosely). the first 7 are as follows
: 1a. Magician (1st of rift war saga)
: 1b. Magician (revised edition with ~15,000 extra words)
: 2. Silverthorn (2nd of rift war saga)
: 3. Darkness at Sethanon (3rd of rift war saga)
: 4. Prince of the Blood (stand alone)
: 5. Kings Buccaneer (stand alone)
: 6. Shadow of a Dark Queen (1st of serpent war saga)
: 7. Rise of a Merchant Prince (2nd of serpent war saga)
: It is the last book that is being talked about.
: I have always liked his books and have never considered them mediocre, I
: would be interested to hear your arguments, if you have any.
I still cannot understand what people seen in Eddings or Feist.
A friend kept raving about how amazing the Riftwar Saga was, so I picked
up the first 5 books on your list and started reading. After about the
3rd book (with all the predictable plots, characters, etc) it became a
chore to read. The same with Eddings, his books are so juvenile in writing
that they turned me off immediately (only got to the second book before
I decided to call it quits), not one surprise in those 2 books. Maybe
these books are better when you're 14-15 (I was around 23 when I read both
books). After reading better fantasy like the Wheel of Time, it surprises
me that people on this newsgroup still recommend these authors.
-Trev
Tshen
: In article <4hqj7j$i...@News.Dal.Ca>, buc...@ug.cs.dal.cað says...
: > After reading better fantasy like the Wheel of Time, it surprises
: >me that people on this newsgroup still recommend these authors.
: Well, check the crossposting before you say "this newsgroup". I was about
: to tear into THE WHEEL OF TIME, but I see that this is also going to
: Jordan's newsgroup. So, different strokes...
Oh, please, don't let that stop you. Tear away. But I doubt you'll have
anything to say that we haven't heard (or said ourselves) before. But
give it a try. You never know. (Unless you're Polgara, then you *know*
that the same corn cob has been up your butt sideways for the last 50
centuries. It's just a given, being the defining point of her personality
and all.)
--Tshen
Qodaxti Institute, 87th stratum
Stryker
>
>Stryker (Rock...@cris.com) wrote:
>: In article <4hqj7j$i...@News.Dal.Ca>, buc...@ug.cs.dal.caš says...
>: > After reading better fantasy like the Wheel of Time, it surprises
>: >me that people on this newsgroup still recommend these authors.
>
>: Well, check the crossposting before you say "this newsgroup". I was about
>: to tear into THE WHEEL OF TIME, but I see that this is also going to
>: Jordan's newsgroup. So, different strokes...
>
>Oh, please, don't let that stop you. Tear away. But I doubt you'll have
>anything to say that we haven't heard (or said ourselves) before. But
>give it a try. You never know. (Unless you're Polgara, then you *know*
>that the same corn cob has been up your butt sideways for the last 50
>centuries. It's just a given, being the defining point of her personality
>and all.)
Wasn't that an intelligent rejoinder? Is this post indicative of the quality
of people who post to rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan? I was stating an
opinion (with no malice towards *any* of the authors mentioned in the
original post), and I receive a flame that petty and derisive. Yes, you've
certainly acquitted any unfavorable opinions I might have about your author-
such eloquence!
Stryker
>
>In message 10 Mar 1996 16:30:26 GMT, Rock...@cris.com (Stryker) writes:
>
>> In article <4hu5lm$6...@calliope.wln.com>, tshe...@rs6a.wln.com! says...
> [picking on Jordan fans, but thinly veiled by the "I was going to..."
> why announce that you were "going to?"]
It was mentioned in the first article as if it was the greatest fantasy novel
ever written. The original poster held it up as a measuring stick and
used it for the purpose of belittling Eddings and Feist. I was simply
going to point out the book has flaws. Certainly even fans of Jordan
can't see this book as perfect. It is a readable, occasionally enjoyable
book, but it truthfully has no more literary merit than the books of
Eddings and Feist. I was going to point out some of the criticism leveled
against the book. I put the "I was going to..." there because the article
would be going to the Jordan newsgroup and those issues had already been
discussed there ad nauseam.
>>> Oh, please, don't let that stop you. Tear away. But I doubt you'll have
>>> anything to say that we haven't heard (or said ourselves) before. But
>>> give it a try. You never know. (Unless you're Polgara, then you *know*
>>> that the same corn cob has been up your butt sideways for the last 50
>>> centuries. It's just a given, being the defining point of her
>>> personality and all.)
>
> [retaliatiatory flaming (and a humorous and surprisingly accurate
> character summary of Pol)]
DO notice that YOU are baiting fans of Eddings here. Are you then behaving
like a child?
>> Wasn't that an intelligent rejoinder? Is this post indicative of the
>> quality of people who post to rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan? I was
>> stating an opinion (with no malice towards *any* of the authors mentioned
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> You mean with poorly-hidden malice.
I said nothing that to draw this type of response. No malice.
>> and I receive a flame that petty and derisive.
>
> Yes, and I'd have to say you deserved it. Unless you *really* thought you
>wouldn't offend anyone by saying "oh, by the way, i was just about to rip
>your favorite author to shreds...but i won't, to each his own." And then I'd
>question your IQ!
I never said that. Amazing how people invent rhetoric when they are unable
to argue a position from the standpoint of truth. You are little better
than the poster of the original flame. Putting words in someone else's mouth
makes you seem petty and insecure. You have read things into the post
that were never stated and, if such a conclusion was drawn,
unintended. I never said I was going to rip Jordan to shreds (which would be
difficult as he is a very good writer). I never implied it. Bring him
down to the level of the other authors being discussed yes (as this is
where I would rate his work. Eddings and Feist are also very good authors).
>> Yes, you've certainly acquitted any unfavorable opinions I might have
>> about your author- such eloquence!
>
> both of you are guilty of behaving like children. But that's OK, you're
>men. It's to be expected. :)
What your excuse then -undescended testicles, or gynecomastia? ;)
> -Mari
> P.S. have either of you gentlemen read Stephen R. Donaldson's work?
> Better than both Eddings and Jordan, but that's just my humble opinion.
I have never read Donaldson. I'll give it a try.
Christopher Smith
> I agree Pug back on Kelewan would be AWESOME!!!, but alas Ray is done with
> that world. He has stated that that Rift will close and Kelewan will be
> a distant memory:( Of course he doesn't say *when* that will happen:)
Where did you hear that??
Aaron Bergman
: The last book that I read by Feist was "Shadow of Dark Queen" Are
: there anymore that belong with this series?
Rise of a Merchant Prince
Aaron
--
--------
Aaron Bergman -- aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu
<http://minerva.cis.yale.edu/~abergman/abergman.html>
--A flag burning amendment would burn the flag--
Jim Hinze
Not intending to continue the thread e.g. kicking a dead horse, but I
just wish to throw my opinion in...
Having just completed Jordan's first book Eye of the World, and having
read all Eddings and Feist and some Donaldson they are all good authors.
Jordan and Donaldson have much more intricate plot lines than Eddings and
Feist but they all develop their characters well. Its almost as if the
characters come alive.
Each author has a vivid imagination. To develop the worlds that each has
takes more imagination and vision than most of the american population.
They all deserver credit for their respective works!
Just my humble opinion.....
--Jim
BPGriffin
wries in article <1996031117243...@caper1.uccb.ns.ca>
>In message Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:05:13 -0500 (EST),
> Rock...@cris.com (Stryker) writes:
>> I have never read Donaldson. I'll give it a try.
> Ah...now thats something that does my heart good. <smile>
> Tell me if you like it! :)
I wonder which Donaldson books are being thought of here?
If we're talking about the Covenant books (Lord Foul's
Bane, et al) we have what may be the finest epic fantasy
ever written (woth the possible exception of Tolkien).
OTOH, the Mordant's need books are bloody near unreadable
(only MHO, of course). The difference in quality has always amazed
me. (I'm ignorant of his SF "Gap" series).
--
Brian Griffin bpgr...@aol.com
RJ Whitney
>
> The last book that I read by Feist was "Shadow of Dark Queen" Are
> there anymore that belong with this series?
There is a second book out that is entitled _Rise of a Merchant Prince_
which (even though I have not had the chance to read it yet... I'm a
university student, so I must wait until it comes out in PB) I know deals
with the development of Roo. There is also a third installment to this
series that is not, as of yet, out. I can not recall the title. Sorry.
<<----------------------------------------------------------->>
<< RJ Whitney -->e-mail: rjwh...@acs.ucalgary.ca >>
<< 9th Gup: Chinook Taekwon do -- Calgary, AB >>
<<----------------------------------------------------------->>
*** A calm mind and an aggressive spirit are the keys to understanding ***
Simon Withers
: >I've read Feist's first 5 starting from Magician and considered all of
: >them quite mediocre, really. Has he really gotten better in terms of
: >literary quality or is this particular book you guys are talking about
: >just more entertaining than usual?
As far as I can tell his writing went from bad in Magician to worse now.
The only book I would rate better than Magician was Daughter of the
Empire with Janny Wurts, but even that was mediocre. His only saving
grace IMO are some of his base ideas.
Simon
----------------------------------------------------------------
: Stop on by the Internet TeleCafe! telnet://telecafe.com:9000 :
----------------------------------------------------------------
Sue
>Christopher Smith (cj...@ecs.soton.ac.uk) wrote:
>: On 4 Mar 1996, Scott Silvey wrote:
>: > I've read Feist's first 5 starting from Magician and considered all of
>: > them quite mediocre, really. Has he really gotten better in terms of
>: > literary quality or is this particular book you guys are talking about
>: > just more entertaining than usual?
>: You seem to be a bit behind :-)
>: Feist is currently writing the 8th book in the 'series' (the term is used
>: loosely). the first 7 are as follows
>: 1a. Magician (1st of rift war saga)
>: 1b. Magician (revised edition with ~15,000 extra words)
>: 2. Silverthorn (2nd of rift war saga)
>: 3. Darkness at Sethanon (3rd of rift war saga)
>: 4. Prince of the Blood (stand alone)
>: 5. Kings Buccaneer (stand alone)
>: 6. Shadow of a Dark Queen (1st of serpent war saga)
>: 7. Rise of a Merchant Prince (2nd of serpent war saga)
>: It is the last book that is being talked about.
>: I have always liked his books and have never considered them mediocre, I
>: would be interested to hear your arguments, if you have any.
> I still cannot understand what people seen in Eddings or Feist.
I think maybe the dialogue has something to do with it. These are two
of the very few genre authors that actually make me chuckle out loud.
And they actually seem to take some time to have some fun with their
characters every once in a while. Sometimes continuous grim,
save-the-world, heroic quest to the death and all gets to be a little
much.
>A friend kept raving about how amazing the Riftwar Saga was, so I picked
>up the first 5 books on your list and started reading. After about the
>3rd book (with all the predictable plots, characters, etc) it became a
>chore to read. The same with Eddings, his books are so juvenile in writing
>that they turned me off immediately (only got to the second book before
>I decided to call it quits), not one surprise in those 2 books. Maybe
>these books are better when you're 14-15 (I was around 23 when I read both
>books). After reading better fantasy like the Wheel of Time, it surprises
>me that people on this newsgroup still recommend these authors.
Well maybe when you age a little more your opinons will change once
again. : - ) I have tried to read those Wheel of Time tomes (I
own the first three). I got through the first one, was intrigued.
Read the second one and got a repeat of the first. Bought the third
one and couldn't find the time nor the effort to start it. Now there
are seven of them and the story is not over yet! I am thirty-nine by
the way.
I guess when I was in my twenties I liked things more intense than
Eddings or Feist. I was reading Carlos Castenedas and beleiving I
understood what it was all about. : - ) I wish I could have read
Anne Rice in my twenties, I think I would have appreciated her more.
TAlk about intense.
Peoples tastes differ - THANK GOD. Imagine how boring it would be if
everyone liked all the same things? I like Eddings and Feist and am
not fond of Jordan. If someone wanted me to recommend a long and
involved fantasy epic I would steer them to Jordon just because so
many people seem to like him. Eddings would get a nod for his first
set of five (I admit he is getting repetetive) and Feist for just
about everything. Maybe even Modesitt's stuff. I am reading him
right now and he seems to fit well with these other three.
>-Trev
---
Sue sue.bi...@sympatico.ca
*** Carpe Diem, mes enfants!
**** What may be may not be. Scottish Proverb
***** Conform and be dull. J. Frank Dobie
Marissa L. Douglas
> Stryker (Rock...@cris.com) wrote:
> : In article <1996031015334...@caper1.uccb.ns.ca>,
> : MD90...@caper1.uccb.ns.ca says...
> : > Have either of you gentlemen read Stephen R. Donaldson's work?
> : > Better than both Eddings and Jordan, but that's just my humble
> : > opinion.
> : I have never read Donaldson. I'll give it a try.
> Tried to read the first T.C. book. Got as far as the rape scene, and
> decided that (1) this kind of behavior was unlikely to make me sympathize
> with, or even care about, the protaganist, and (2) Donaldson's prose
> style had up to that point failed to grab me.
You should try to finish at least the first trilogy. About your points:
1) Covenant's raping of Lena is not supposed to make you sympathize with
him. He is thoroughly unlikable, that everyone can agree on. But in time
you get to know the jerk, and even begin to understand his rather warped
psyche. The rape makes sense (as much as rape ever can) when you realize
what he's lost and what, in the moments before the vile deed, he has
regained. Besides, *Spoiler alert*
The guilt he experiences after the rape motivates him through the entire
first trilogy, and he also has a daughter by that rape, a daughter who
figures very strongly in the books, the ramifications of TC dealing with her
practically cause the second trilogy.
2) You honestly don't like Donaldson's prose? I find it very entertaining,
not 90% dialogue like Eddings, but more of what goes on in the character's
minds.
Please respond....anyone...
> --Tshen
> Qodaxti Institute, 87th stratum
-Mari
Stryker
>
>Stryker (Rock...@cris.com) wrote:
>: In article <1996031015334...@caper1.uccb.ns.ca>, MD90...@caper1.uc
>"...going to tear the book apart" is not even remotely the semantic
>equivalent of "going to point out the book has flaws".
You know I am certain people are sick of this thread, but I NEVER said I
was "going to tear the book apart". I had to look up the original post
because I couldn't believe I'd said that. Of course the reason why the
aforementioned words sounded unfamiliar... they weren't mine. At the end
of a rather long rejoinder where I admitted some of the flaws the original
poster pointed out in regards to both Eddings and Feist, I said, "I was
about to tear into THE WHEEL OF TIME, but I see that this is also going
to Jordan's newsgroup." Tearing into a book and tearing it apart have
completely different connotations. I tore into the works of Eddings,
especially in regards to the Sparhawk series, immediately prior to
making the statement. At the same time I stuck up for Eddings original five
books collectively known as the Belgariad.
> If you don't
>understand this, then we cannot trust that you really mean anything you
>say, because it has been shown that you do not know how to express what
>you mean.
Again, how can I defend myself when I am quoted out of context, and
quoted incorrectly too. The vernacular I used was not all that obscure.
>If you do understand this, then you are being willfully
>duplicious--in which case you would be well advised to desist.
Duplicitous you mean?
To what end?
>As for the second part, can you really deny that Polgara is the most
>officious, authoritarian, priggish character that has never changed in
>5,000 years of life?
My dear fellow, had you said, I would have laughed. That was very near the
mark. I would never deny that Polgara is immutable.
>What?! We just responded for no reason, is that it? You are asserting
>that you provided no stimulus for this response? Doubtful.
Obviously you did feel justified, but it seemed that you were not there
to discuss, but rather to insult. Do reread your original post and note
that it was you who said, "Unless you're Polgara, then you *know*
that the same corn cob has been up your butt sideways for the last 50
centuries. It's just a given, being the defining point of her personality
and all.)" Crude and a rather unflattering comparison. Unless YOU
ARE Polgara... This then becomes a personal slight as you are no
doubt aware Polgara is a fictional character. You were not satirizing
Eddings' character, but rather the author of the post. I will accept
the possibility that the characterization was meant to be Falstaffian,
albeit sophomorically executed.
>Tell me, exactly what qualities _do_ you expect in a flame?
Well some of the wit that you displayed in your recent characterization
of Polgara would have been nice. Your first comment was merely crude.
>Hey, she's not the only one. Maybe you might consider the possibility
>that what you wrote did not adequately communicate what you had intended
>it to do.
Obviously.
>Ah, the appropriate way to accurately evaluate the writing of a good
>author is to "tear into" him. (Your words, BTW, nobody put them into your
>mouth but you.) Well, go ahead and "tear into" him. Maybe you will be
>able to "bring him down".
Precisely.
>My excuse is neotony.
You are a sexually mature larva? Oh yes the word you chose is amphibolous.
You no doubt meant you still have traces of gills. ;)
Gary Baines
> I wonder which Donaldson books are being thought of here?
> If we're talking about the Covenant books (Lord Foul's
> Bane, et al) we have what may be the finest epic fantasy
> ever written (woth the possible exception of Tolkien).
> OTOH, the Mordant's need books are bloody near unreadable
> (only MHO, of course). The difference in quality has always amazed
> me. (I'm ignorant of his SF "Gap" series).
> --
> Brian Griffin bpgr...@aol.com
>
You are kidding yes? Mordents Need, especially the second book
"A man rides through" is one of the most uplifting and well written
books around. The plot is amazing and frankly leaves his earlier
work to shame. I suppose the Covenant books were written as more
epic fantasy trying to mirror Tolkien. In Mordants need he just got
down and told a great story. No problems about liking the heroes and
heroines in this book.
When I reread it I am able to grieve with the Tor and feel sorry
for the Fayle as he tries to save his care, but I never fail to hear
horns :-)
Gary.
Tshen
: tshe...@rs6a.wln.com says...
: >Stryker (Rock...@cris.com) wrote:
: >:tshenkel sez...
: >"...going to tear the book apart" is not even remotely the semantic
: You know I am certain people are sick of this thread, but I NEVER said I
: was "going to tear the book apart". I had to look up the original post
: because I couldn't believe I'd said that. Of course the reason why the
: aforementioned words sounded unfamiliar... they weren't mine. At the end
: of a rather long rejoinder where I admitted some of the flaws the original
: poster pointed out in regards to both Eddings and Feist, I said, "I was
: about to tear into THE WHEEL OF TIME, but I see that this is also going
: to Jordan's newsgroup." Tearing into a book and tearing it apart have
: completely different connotations. I tore into the works of Eddings,
: especially in regards to the Sparhawk series, immediately prior to
: making the statement. At the same time I stuck up for Eddings original five
: books collectively known as the Belgariad.
My fault for misquoting "tearing into a book" as "going to tear the book
apart." That was inaccurate, though I _did_ quote accurately in the rest
of my post (which was mostly snipped).
And maybe I'm a big dum-dum cuz I can't see where the difference between
tearing into and tearing apart lies. Could you like explain this or sumtin?
: > If you don't
: >understand this, then we cannot trust that you really mean anything you
: >say, because it has been shown that you do not know how to express what
: >you mean.
: Again, how can I defend myself when I am quoted out of context, and
: quoted incorrectly too. The vernacular I used was not all that obscure.
Gee. Unlike you, I thought I was leaving in all relevant context.
: >If you do understand this, then you are being willfully
: >duplicious--in which case you would be well advised to desist.
: Duplicitous you mean?
Obviously.
: To what end?
_If_ you are being dulici*T*ous, then I would hope you would know your
own motivation for being such. _If_ you are not being such, then my other
supposition follows (that's the supposition above that we've already
commented on).
That's all for now. Lunch is over.
Rob Pooley
novels. I thought the bit about leprosy at the start was wonderful and then got
totally fed up with the main story after a very short time. Even the fact that I
was stuck in Sweden with no other fiction to read for a week didn't encourage me
to try to persevere. Sorry if you enjoyed it, but I certainly don't want to read
three books or so to get into something that I found as dull and badly written as
this. (That's the way I read it, not an infallible judgement.)
On the other hand, I started on Pawn of Prophecy and was sucked in within the
first couple of paragraphs. I remember thinking that here was a fantasy work
written by somebody who new how to write a story. Shame he went on to overplay
the characters and ideas in the second series.
Rob
--
------------------------------------
Dr Rob Pooley
Senior Lecturer, Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh
Kings Buildings, Edinburgh EH9 3JZ. Tel:+44 131 650 5123 Fax:+44 131 667 7209
Donal K. Fellows
RJ Whitney <rjwh...@acs.ucalgary.ca> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Don Martin wrote:
>> The last book that I read by Feist was "Shadow of Dark Queen" Are
>> there anymore that belong with this series?
>
> There is a second book out that is entitled _Rise of a Merchant Prince_
> which (even though I have not had the chance to read it yet... I'm a
> university student, so I must wait until it comes out in PB) I know deals
> with the development of Roo. There is also a third installment to this
> series that is not, as of yet, out. I can not recall the title. Sorry.
`Rage of a Demon King' will be out in Spring '97 (Autumn for the
southern hemisphere) and `Honor of a Bastard Knight' will be out a
year later (according to REF). Yes, it's going to be a 4 book set.
There are pointers to various REF FAQs at:
http://r8h.cs.man.ac.uk:8000/REF/
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows, (at work) | Donal K. Fellows, (at home)
Dept. of Computer Science, | 6, Randall Place, Heaton,
University of Manchester | Bradford, BD9 4AE
U.K. Tel: ++44-161-275-6137 | U.K. Tel: ++44-1274-401017
fell...@cs.man.ac.uk (preferred) | do...@ugglan.demon.co.uk (if you must)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
<http://r8h.cs.man.ac.uk:8000/> for my home page
One Slimy Hog
>I wonder which Donaldson books are being thought of here?
>If we're talking about the Covenant books (Lord Foul's
>Bane, et al) we have what may be the finest epic fantasy
>ever written (woth the possible exception of Tolkien).
>OTOH, the Mordant's need books are bloody near unreadable
>(only MHO, of course). The difference in quality has always amazed
>me. (I'm ignorant of his SF "Gap" series).
>--
>Brian Griffin bpgr...@aol.com
What never ceases to amaze me is the huge differences of opinion Donaldson
causes. Many of those who like Covenent hate Mordant's Need, and vice versa.
His Gap series is equally lived or loathed, seemingly independently of how
people found his other work. I consider myself very fortunate that I love it
all. For the record, I went in a bookshop last week, and found out that the
Gap into Ruin is due out on April 9th here in the UK. (I can't wait!)
Simon1
Tshen
: In article <4i52hn$10...@calliope.wln.com>, tshe...@rs6a.wln.com says...
: >Stryker (Rock...@cris.com) wrote:
: > : tshenkel wroted:
: >As for the second part, can you really deny that Polgara is the most
: >5,000 years of life?
: My dear fellow, had you said, I would have laughed. That was very near the
: mark. I would never deny that Polgara is immutable.
Ah, we agree. Good. The world is filled with wond'rous things after all. :-)
: >What?! We just responded for no reason, is that it? You are asserting
: >that you provided no stimulus for this response? Doubtful.
: Obviously you did feel justified, but it seemed that you were not there
: to discuss, but rather to insult.
Funny, I could've said the same thing about your post. Isn't the net a
wonderful (mis)communications tool?
: Do reread your original post and note
: that it was you who said, "Unless you're Polgara, then you *know*
: that the same corn cob has been up your butt sideways for the last 50
: centuries. It's just a given, being the defining point of her personality
: and all.)" Crude and a rather unflattering comparison. Unless YOU
: ARE Polgara... This then becomes a personal slight as you are no
: doubt aware Polgara is a fictional character. You were not satirizing
: Eddings' character, but rather the author of the post. I will accept
: the possibility that the characterization was meant to be Falstaffian,
: albeit sophomorically executed.
Ah. This is my fault. I should have used "one knows" instead of "you
know", as I was referring only to Polgara--a character who has a
*special* place in my heart. Sigh. It's just that the objective third
person sounds so _stilted_...
: >Tell me, exactly what qualities _do_ you expect in a flame?
: Well some of the wit that you displayed in your recent characterization
: of Polgara would have been nice. Your first comment was merely crude.
I was responding on the same level I perceived "tear into" the WoT books
was coming from.
: >Hey, she's not the only one. Maybe you might consider the possibility
: >that what you wrote did not adequately communicate what you had intended
: >it to do.
: Obviously.
C'est la nette.
: >Ah, the appropriate way to accurately evaluate the writing of a good
: >author is to "tear into" him. (Your words, BTW, nobody put them into your
: >mouth but you.) Well, go ahead and "tear into" him. Maybe you will be
: >able to "bring him down".
: Precisely.
I'm still confused *why* you would want to perform this figurative act of
literary violence on RJ (or any other author for that matter).
: >My excuse is neotony.
: You are a sexually mature larva? Oh yes the word you chose is amphibolous.
: You no doubt meant you still have traces of gills. ;)
No, no, no. I mean it in the psychiatiric sense. The ability to continue
to experience life with a child-like sense of wonder. It's hard to be
neotonous and a cynical bastard, but I try.
Stryker
>: tshe...@rs6a.wln.com says...
>My fault for misquoting "tearing into a book" as "going to tear the book
>apart." That was inaccurate, though I _did_ quote accurately in the rest
>of my post (which was mostly snipped).
That was the only quote you made. The rest of the post was merely
reproducing the previous article(s).
>And maybe I'm a big dum-dum cuz I can't see where the difference between
>tearing into and tearing apart lies. Could you like explain this or sumtin?
Look, haven't you ever bought a new book and went home and "tore into it".
Or decided to review it and "tore through it again" looking for
inconsistencies and errors. I was using a common, I thought, figure of
speech. I don't want to argue semantics, but that is what this thread has
dilapidated to. I admit that the way I phrased the original rejoinder was
sloppy, and left room for misinterpretation (obviously, as two people took
it that way).
>: > If you don't
>: >understand this, then we cannot trust that you really mean anything you
>: >say, because it has been shown that you do not know how to express what
>: >you mean.
>: Again, how can I defend myself when I am quoted out of context, and
>: quoted incorrectly too. The vernacular I used was not all that obscure.
>
>Gee. Unlike you, I thought I was leaving in all relevant context.
And I thought WE were wasting bandwidth. I omitted the superfluous (as
defined by text that was not applicable to what I was commenting on). It
was really getting to be an unmanageable behemoth. If you feel I glossed
over something, restate it.
>_If_ you are being dulici*T*ous, then I would hope you would know your
>own motivation for being such. _If_ you are not being such, then my other
>supposition follows (that's the supposition above that we've already
>commented on).
Well, I was not being duPlicitous. I was using what I thought was a common
figure of speech. Try considering the original post in the Gestalt, rather
than in part. You will see that I acknowledge the weakness of two authors
I am defending. I was simply trying to point out that while neither Feist
nor Eddings are perfect, both have written very good books. Jordan is on
par with, not better than, either; as redundant as it is to restate this: this
is merely my opinion -which should be obvious, but is restated for the
obtuse who need such assurances. I probably overreacted to
your satire as well. It seemed to me you were trying to pull
a "guilt by association" slap analogous to Jonathan Swift or Oscar Wilde.
I no longer think that was your intent. Do I suspect duplicity on your
part? No, it was merely a misreading of your intent.
Take care:)
Simon Tanner
> I would recommened that all books from either of these authors
> are avoided except for the excellent Faerie Tale Adventure by
> Feist. But that's just me.
>
I agree wholeheartedly - avoid like the plague or your tongue will turn
black and your eyes grey with boredom at the lack of characterisation and
the sheer predictability of the plot.
British Werewolf in Boston
Fredrik Claesson
>
> 2) You honestly don't like Donaldson's prose? I find it very entertaining,
> not 90% dialogue like Eddings, but more of what goes on in the character's
> minds.
>
> Please respond....anyone...
>
Ok, I will..=)
I agree with you.
Eddings books are entertaining, but thats it..The books are funny, the
characters are always making jokes but nothing is very serious.
In the entire 10 books, how many of the maincharacters die? One? And he becomes
a god?? When the woman takes a mortal blow by that knife in her heart, what
happens? _Someone_ stops the time so she can be healed..I dont like that kind of
silly,overgood _nothing bad ever happens_ kind of books..
Donaldsons Covenants books on the other hand are quite realistic. Covenant
himself is so wonderfully human! So excellently pissed off. And the books has
much sorrow and pain. Not only for covenant but for most people how fights for
the good of the world. Quite many people suffer and die..Not like the
childishlike prose of Eddings.
Donaldson is a great author, and his new books, The Gap series, is excellent.
Donaldson is IMHO the best author to build up a plot. To spread the net of
intrigues and in the end tie everything up in a mighty finish.
--
***************************************************
Fredrik Claesson
E-mail sy9...@blg.du.se
Homepage http://www.blg.se/~sy93fcl
Donal K. Fellows
Amy I. Sheldon <ai...@po.CWRU.Edu> wrote:
[ Elided ]
> In the American version of English, there *is* a difference
> between "tear apart" and "tear into". The connotations of
> "tear apart" are mainly negative, and imply that the speaker
> plans to deconstruct the object with a view towards exposing
> all the flaws of said object.
>
> "Tear into", on the other hand, is more frequently used to
> denote enthusiasm. If you are hungry, you might "tear into"
> a steak dinner. If you are the kind of person who enjoys a
> good arguement, you would tear into a discussion of which
> author is better.
I believe that the distinction also exists in the UK version of the
language (which, naturally, is the correct one :^)
> ObEddings: The paperback version of _Belgarath the Sorcerer_
> will be out in the U.S. in July.
I think that BtS is already out in paperback in the UK, but I'm not
sure, since it's been ages since I've been to a bookshop...
Donal K. Fellows
One Slimy Hog <sch...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> What never ceases to amaze me is the huge differences of opinion Donaldson
> causes. Many of those who like Covenent hate Mordant's Need, and vice versa.
> His Gap series is equally lived or loathed, seemingly independently of how
> people found his other work. I consider myself very fortunate that I love it
> all. For the record, I went in a bookshop last week, and found out that the
> Gap into Ruin is due out on April 9th here in the UK. (I can't wait!)
All of which puzzles me, since I like them all...
Jim Hanley
>
> In article <31497E...@blg.du.se>, sy9...@blg.du.se says...
[snip]
> >When the woman takes a mortal blow by that knife in her heart, what
> >happens? _Someone_ stops the time so she can be healed..I don't like that kind of
> >silly, overgood _nothing bad ever happens_ kind of books..
>
> Could I have forgotten something that important? It sounds like the plot
> of Raymond E. Feist's book SILVERTHORN. I do remember Hettar's woman
> having something bad happen, but I don't remember what. I must have
> forgotten the fact that time was stopped (not surprising as I had
> completely forgotten the scene until you mentioned it. Anyway, it
> was not a real major player that was hurt. A lot of people *do* die in
> Eddings' work, but you are correct, no main characters, at least until
> the last book of the Mallorean. This does stretch the realism of the
> books a little for me as well. Still, I really enjoyed the books. Good
> characters, a fun read.
I believe it was an arrow in Adara's side, put there by a murgo while
they hauled the Cherek ships up the escarpmnent in Algaria. All they did was
race her back to polgara, and she was healed there.
I sort of see Eddings type of fantasy as a whole different genere of
literature. A sort of sub-style. The kind where there is not as much based in
reality, and some of the natural laws are suspended for periods of time. I
believe Catherine Kerr (spelling?) writes very true to earth in the Bishops
Heir. One of the main Characters, the king whose name I cant remember, has his
bride slain on the alter, and the Special powers people can't do anything for
her in time. I like both styles, where I can lose myself in Eddings and enjoy
the good always trouncing the evil, and I also enjoy Kerr's style, where the
good has some work cut out for them, and all the good guys don't make it to the
end.
Jim Hanley, ire...@u.washington.edu
A.Jante
>Can I agree with the poster who tried and failed to read Donaldson's Covanenter
>novels. I thought the bit about leprosy at the start was wonderful and then got
>totally fed up with the main story after a very short time.
I agree that the Covenant Chronicles are somewhat depressing. I do
urge you to give Donaldson's other fantasy "Mordant's Need" (two
volumes - The Mirror of Her Dreams and a Man Rides Through) a try.
It is much lighter and easier to read than Covenant but it still
explores the same theme (to my mind, at least) and it is certainly
one of my favorite fantasy works to read & re-read. (Or was,
too bad my copies are half a world away right now).
aLYN
Emmet O'Brien
>You are kidding yes? Mordents Need, especially the second book
>"A man rides through" is one of the most uplifting and well written
>books around. The plot is amazing and frankly leaves his earlier
>work to shame. I suppose the Covenant books were written as more
>epic fantasy trying to mirror Tolkien. In Mordants need he just got
>down and told a great story. No problems about liking the heroes and
>heroines in this book.
You actually _liked_ Terisa ? I felt some element of sympathy for her,
but if she'd applied two brain cells to her situation for any length of time,
the book could have been concluded with much less padding. IMO, he succeeded
admirably in bringing off a lighter, "fairy-tale" tone, but the plot clunked
and the characters were ciphers compared to the supporting cast of the
Covenant books.
Emmet
--
Daddy, what does "Formatting drive C:" mean ?
Marissa L. Douglas
> Regrettably, Stephen D. seems to have lost all track with his "GAP
> Series". What an utter load of boring drivel.
oh my goodness. somebody jumpstart my pacemaker!
wait, i dont have a pacemaker! I think I need one now.....
The Gap is the most fantastic SF I've ever read, and nearly as
engrossing as the Covenant books themselves.
> It made me weep for the Donaldson of old.
wait...can't feel my left side.....
> --
> R.J.Griffin
> Prophecy.
>
-Mari
Andrea Lynn Leistra
>It's one of the very few stories I've ever read that brought tears to
>my eyes more than once.
Same here.
I don't want to bore people by listing scenes, but I will urge anyone who
stopped reading the series before the end of the first book (for instance,
if they were turned off by the rape) to give them another try. It's
important to remember that you aren't expected to like or admire
Covenant.
>Especially the scene in the Second Chronicles (Wounded Land I believe)
>where Covenant meets his old friends again in ethereal form. Saltheart
>Foamfollower especially. _What_ a thoroughly engrossing and emotional
>read.
Definitely. Donaldson spent the first series creating a world of
tremendous beauty, and the second series detailing the complete perversion
of everything in it. I cared about the Land as if it were a character -
that takes doing.
I've also read both the Mordant's Need duology and the Gap series. I
found the former mediocre at best. I tried rereading it a few months ago
and stopped midway through the first book, after saying the Eight Deadly
Words. I found the Gap series to be incredible - but again, if you need
unambiguous good guys, skip it. The characters range from several
varieties of unpleasant through nasty to absolutely repugnant. And after
four of five books, you're not sure who you should be rooting for. I like
that, but it's not for everyone.
--
Andrea Leistra http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~aleistra
-----
Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts.
Marissa L. Douglas
veg...@ifi.uio.no (Vegard Br!then) writes:
> I gave it up after the first two volumes. But my problem wasn't the
> character Covenant - I really felt the he was a complex and likable
> character. I also enjoyed Donaldson's style - but thats about it. None of
> the character's other than Covenant were very memorable, and the story
> just didn't grab me.
<shaking head> Well I guess we have completely dissimilar tastes!
I have never been so enthralled in a fantasy seres before or since. Oh well,
to each her own I guess.
You really should give a thought to finishing the other four books. Did
you know that the entire second trilogy is mostly the result of Covenant
raping Lena? You've already read about that!
-Mari
Marissa L. Douglas
Fredrik Claesson <sy9...@blg.du.se> writes:
> Eddings books are entertaining, but thats it..The books are funny, the
> characters are always making jokes but nothing is very serious.
> In the entire 10 books, how many of the maincharacters die? One? And he
> becomes a god?? When the woman takes a mortal blow by that knife in her
> heart, what happens? _Someone_ stops the time so she can be healed..I
> dont like that kind of silly,overgood _nothing bad ever happens_ kind of
> books..
exactly!
> Donaldsons Covenants books on the other hand are quite realistic. Covenant
> himself is so wonderfully human! So excellently pissed off. And the books
> has much sorrow and pain. Not only for covenant but for most people how
> fights for the good of the world. Quite many people suffer and die..
yes!
> Donaldson is a great author, and his new books, The Gap series, is
> excellent. Donaldson is IMHO the best author to build up a plot. To
> spread the net of intrigues and in the end tie everything up in a mighty
> finish.
I couldn't have put everything any better than you did, Fredrik. Its nice
to know there are people out there who share the same opinions as me....
<smile>
You've made my day!
> ***************************************************
> Fredrik Claesson
> E-mail sy9...@blg.du.se
> Homepage http://www.blg.se/~sy93fcl
>
-Mari
Michael Huston
<ire...@u.washington.edu> writes:
<snip>
>believe Catherine Kerr (spelling?) writes very true to earth in the
Bishops
>Heir. One of the main Characters, the king whose name I cant
remember, has his
>bride slain on the alter, and the Special powers people can't do
anything for
>her in time. I like both styles, where I can lose myself in Eddings
The author that you're thinking of is Katherine Kurtz. Oh yes, I
remember that particular scene; I sniveled through the rest of the
book. Kurtz has become very adept at killing off her main characters --
the book _Camber the Heretic_ and _The Heirs of Saint Camber_ series
are four of the most depressing books that I've ever read. Good though.
However, word's out that she's finishing up _King Kelson's Bride_,
where the king actually gets to have a happy relationship. Can't wait
to see it.
R Huston
Tshen
: what a bunch of slop, why don't all you spend more time reading and
: less time criticising each other's opinion, you know it's everyone's
: right to have one!
RE: the above:
What a bunch of slop! Why don't you spend more time reading, and less
time criticizing our opinions. You know, it is everyone's right to have one.
Notes:
1) The "Shift" key is your friend. Become familiar with it.
2) When you find it, look a couple of keys over. There you will find the
"." key. You may also find this useful for better, clearer communications.
3) Please include some portion of the article(s) you are responding to
for context. Failing to do so makes one look like (a) a loon, (b) a
newbie, (c) both.
4) Have a nice day.
rsf...@uncg.edu
>what a bunch of slop, why don't all you spend more time reading and
>less time criticising each other's opinion, you know it's everyone's
>right to have one!
Indeed it is!
However, we *can't* spend more time reading. We read faster than the authors
write (I just finished a book I waited five bloody years for in about two
hours. Now, I have to wait some *more* for the second book in the trilogy.
Aieeee.)
Rob F.
Dave Navarro
>
> Can I agree with the poster who tried and failed to read Donaldson's Covanenter
> novels. I thought the bit about leprosy at the start was wonderful and then got
> was stuck in Sweden with no other fiction to read for a week didn't encourage me
> to try to persevere. Sorry if you enjoyed it, but I certainly don't want to read
> three books or so to get into something that I found as dull and badly written as
> this. (That's the way I read it, not an infallible judgement.)
>
> On the other hand, I started on Pawn of Prophecy and was sucked in within the
> first couple of paragraphs. I remember thinking that here was a fantasy work
> written by somebody who new how to write a story. Shame he went on to overplay
> the characters and ideas in the second series.
I have to agree. I read the first two books and gave up.
What I enjoy with both Eddings' and Feist's books is there ability to 'grab
my attention' and not let go of it. Frequently, I'll be lying down on the
couch in the living room and my fiance will look at me strangly as I lauch
out loud or sniffle (maybe pound out a tear or two) as I am reading. The
only other author that does the same to me is James P. Hogan (different genre
altogether than Feist and Eddings).
--Dave
Kate Nepveu
: I've read both Covenant trilogies, Mordant's Need, and the first two books
: of "The Gap". I still haven't figured Donaldson out. I found Thomas
: Covenant to be almost completely despicable (except for the end of the
: second trilogy, where he redeems himself), and *all* the characters in
: "The Gap" to be thoroughly unlikable. Am I alone in this, or is this
: perhaps one reason why a lot of people don't like Donaldson? Reading the
: "Gap" books was almost sickening in the cruelty and depravity of his
: characters. Don't get me wrong - I *think* I liked the books, and am
: waiting for the final volume to come out before reading the entire thing
: over from scratch.
I read the TC books, and I found them compelling, but I can't say I
really liked them. The supporting characters (the Giants, etc.--it's
been a while & I'm rusty on names, so we'll leave it at "etc.") were in
many cases wonderful, and some of the scenes were excellent, but
overally so much angst was tough going. And the Gap books were also
very disturbing--I'm waiting for the fifth to see how Donaldson pulls it
all together (I haven't touched the books since the last one came out.)
: Yet with the sick things (rape and brutality, especially), I have
: to wonder about a few things:
: - What does it say about Donaldson that he can write of such things? In
: all of his books, he seems to make women the victims of men: Lena's rape
: in "Covenant", the heroine in "Mordant's Need" - I forget her name - being
: sexually used by the villain - I forget his name too (sorry, it's been so
: long since I've read them), and the brutal assault, both with fists and
: rape, of Morn Hyland in "Gap".
This I am unable to comment on. What does it say of any author that
deal with these subjects? And a large number do. (But see below.)
: - What does it say about me that I read his books, and usually enjoy them?
: What does it say about other people who read Donaldson?
: - Am I missing something deeper in all of this?
Well, as I said, it's been a while since I've read his books, but it
seems to me what makes me actually want to read the last Gap book the
main characters' fight for redemption. (Besides finding out the
plot Dios has been implementing all this time.) All of them--Morn,
Davie, Angus, Dios--are struggling so hard to find what they need,
overcome their problems, and atone for their sins. That's what's
enabling me to spend more time with people who have done such
horrible things--because there's the possibility for their becoming
something better. Maybe that's the something deeper you were looking
for.
--
Kate Nepveu kne...@lynx.neu.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------
I rise in the morning torn between a desire to improve (or save)
the world and a desire to enjoy (or savour) it. This makes it
hard to plan the day.
--E.B. White
A.Jante
>of time,
>: > the book could have been concluded with much less padding.
>I have to say that _I_ loved Terisa. And that Mordant;'s Need is, in my
>opinion, Donaldson's best work--because he manages to make the
>psychological depth and density of Covenant palatable through the lighter
>format. My problem with Covenant is that, although it was lovely and
>beautiful and evocative, it was DEPRESSING. It lost its entertainment
>value. And the Gap novels are even worse.....So Mordant's Need to me is
>the perfect compromise.
>I wish he'd write more.
Ditto. Mordant's Need is my favorite Donaldson as well. And I also
like Terisa because I find it very believable that someone who has
all the hangups that she had, suddenly transported into an alternate
reality, would still be looking at her new world thru her old paradigm.
Much better than if she had taken one look at whtasisname clove-breath
and said _uh-oh, obviously the bad guy_. Sure her mistakes were
infuriating, but it's precisely that - the growth of her character -
which makes Mordant's Need so interesting.
Alyn
Gary Baines
> but if she'd applied two brain cells to her situation for any length of time,
I thought the scenes when she was in the dungeon thinking her way through what had
happened were great. I think it's a little unfair to suggest she should have
pegged the bad guy before then, where was the proof?
> IMO, he succeeded
> admirably in bringing off a lighter, "fairy-tale" tone, but the plot clunked
> and the characters were ciphers compared to the supporting cast of the
> Covenant books.
> Emmet
I thought the supporting cast wasn't bad at all. Artagel and the Tor were my two
favourites and of course Prince Kragen in the second book. Saltheart foamfollower
and the bloodguard (forget his name) are the ones I best remember from the Covenant
novels. IMO it is fair to say that the secondary cast in Mordant's need easily
holds its own :)
Gary.
Fredrik Claesson
>
> > [cut]
> I have to agree. I've read all the Covenant series three times through
> and I'm still finding bits that I didn't "see" last time I read it.
ah yes, they are so great
>
> It's one of the very few stories I've ever read that brought tears to
> my eyes more than once.
>
ah yes, they are so great
> Especially the scene in the Second Chronicles (Wounded Land I believe)
> where Covenant meets his old friends again in ethereal form. Saltheart
> Foamfollower especially. _What_ a thoroughly engrossing and emotional
> read.
*wipes a tear from his eye* ah yes, they are so great
> I've never read any books before or since that match the Covenant
> books.
>
ah yes, they are so great
BUT, I must say that *sniff* Robert Jordan has surpassed him with his Wheel of time. Even
though it's not finished yet.
> They say every writer has /one/ masterpiece in them. This was
> Donaldson's!!
Ah yes, did I say that they are so great? ;)
--
***************************************************
Fredrik Claesson
E-mail sy9...@blg.du.se
Homepage http://www.hfb.se/~sy93fcl
Fredrik Claesson
> >characters are always making jokes but nothing is very serious.
> >a god??
>
> Huh??? We are talking about Eddings here, right? Eriond becomes a god in
> the Mallorean, but it is Pol's husband that has two lives.
Yes, we are talking Eddings..And you are right about Eriond and Durnik. But that's just my point, Durnik
dies but what happens? He is brought back to life again.
>
> >When the woman takes a mortal blow by that knife in her heart, what
> >happens? _Someone_ stops the time so she can be healed..I don't like that kind of
> >silly, overgood _nothing bad ever happens_ kind of books..
>
> Could I have forgotten something that important? It sounds like the plot
> of Raymond E. Feist's book SILVERTHORN. I do remember Hettar's woman
My mistake, that woman is from the other series by Eddings, the Tamuli and Elenium. But they are about
the same stuff as Belgariad and Mallorea; no one dies. It's all goodie-goodie.
BUT, I didn't say I didn't like them. I do. They are fun reading, very light reading, entertaining and
worth the 2 hours/book they take to read. But I wouldn't call them great fantasy, as R Jordans,
S Donaldsons and JRR Tolkiens books.
Gavin Williams
>
>Regrettably, Stephen D. seems to have lost all track with his "GAP
>Series". What an utter load of boring drivel.
>
>It made me weep for the Donaldson of old.
'Tis true, 'tis pity, and pity 'tis 'tis true
Gavin
John W. Schwegler
: In article <3149fdbd...@news.demon.co.uk>, <Alberron> wrote:
: >It's one of the very few stories I've ever read that brought tears to
: >my eyes more than once.
: Same here.
: I don't want to bore people by listing scenes, but I will urge anyone who
: stopped reading the series before the end of the first book (for instance,
: if they were turned off by the rape) to give them another try. It's
: important to remember that you aren't expected to like or admire
: Covenant.
I don't think anyone's going to have any problems not liking or
admiring Covenant. Nonetheless, it is (in some cases) possible to
have sympathy for him, especially once you realize what he thinks
the Land is going to do to him if he lets it (by acknowledging it
as real).
: >Especially the scene in the Second Chronicles (Wounded Land I believe)
: >where Covenant meets his old friends again in ethereal form. Saltheart
: >Foamfollower especially. _What_ a thoroughly engrossing and emotional
: >read.
: Definitely. Donaldson spent the first series creating a world of
: tremendous beauty, and the second series detailing the complete perversion
: of everything in it. I cared about the Land as if it were a character -
: that takes doing.
One quote (my paraphrase, it's been a year since my last reread):
"What do you do to the man who's lost everything? Give him back something
broken."
: I've also read both the Mordant's Need duology and the Gap series. I
: found the former mediocre at best. I tried rereading it a few months ago
: and stopped midway through the first book, after saying the Eight Deadly
: Words. I found the Gap series to be incredible - but again, if you need
: unambiguous good guys, skip it. The characters range from several
: varieties of unpleasant through nasty to absolutely repugnant. And after
: four of five books, you're not sure who you should be rooting for. I like
: that, but it's not for everyone.
Mordant's Need drove me up a wall. The series seemed as if it
came from a completely different author, inferior to the author
who wrote the Covenant series. On the other hand, I'm eagerly awaiting
_Now All Gods Must Die_ (I think that's the name for the last book in
the Gap series).
-john
--
______________________________________________________________________________
"Genius may have its limitations, | John Schwegler
but stupidity is not thus | Temple U. Auditory Research Dept.
handicapped." | jo...@flower.aud.temple.edu
- Elbert Hubbard | (215) 707-3687 FAX 707-3650
One Slimy Hog
>- What does it say about Donaldson that he can write of such things? In
>all of his books, he seems to make women the victims of men: Lena's rape
>in "Covenant", the heroine in "Mordant's Need" - I forget her name - being
>sexually used by the villain - I forget his name too (sorry, it's been so
>long since I've read them), and the brutal assault, both with fists and
>rape, of Morn Hyland in "Gap".
Theresa.
>- What does it say about me that I read his books, and usually enjoy them?
>What does it say about other people who read Donaldson?
Why? I don't follow the chain of logic that says because I enjoy Donaldson, I
am about to become a rapist. There are some horrific acts carried out in
Donaldson's books. Any attempt to justify Angus' or Covenant's behaviour is
insulting. Personally, I find fascinating and moving the acts of heroism
carried out by some of the victims. Is there anyone here who would have given
Angus back his freedom?
>- Am I missing something deeper in all of this?
I don't know.
>Thanks,
>Andy Raibeck
Simon1
Nathan Lundblad
: ah yes, they are so great
: ah yes, they are so great
: *wipes a tear from his eye* ah yes, they are so great
: BUT, I must say that *sniff* Robert Jordan has surpassed him with his Wheel of time. Even
: though it's not finished yet.
How do you define surpass? In creating an addictive plot, yes. In weaving a tale
of such complexity to boggle most of us, yes. But emotional depth? In the long
run, I think tCoTCtU will be recognized as the deeper, more thought-provoking tale.
I'm not saying tWoT is fluff. It's not. But Donaldson and Jordan subscribe to
two completely different fantasy paradigms, and to say Jordan has surpassed
Donaldson is, at the very least, something that requires more argument than
some overdone sarcasm. Btw, are you saying you didn't find Covenant confronting
his shades in tWL a powerful scene? Wow.
--
Nathan Eric Lundblad I have found a kind of
lund...@ugastro.berkeley.edu temporary sanity in this...
http://www.ugastro.berkeley.edu/~lundblad ---------------------------
Craig Richardson
Shawn R. Hillmann <aar...@post.its.mcw.edu> wrote:
>Eddings style is definetily inferior to that of Donaldsons, especially in
>there dialogue.
Nothing to add, really - just that this might be the funniest
sentence I've ever read on USENET...
--Craig
--
Craig S. Richardson (cri...@eskimo.com - http://www.eskimo.com/~crichar)
Shortstop/Pitcher (0-2, 6.16) - Federal Way Astros (11-9) [NABA]
"... things don't look good for Craig. He's a stiff." - Gary Huckabay
All I'd ever need / Right before my eyes / Never felt a thing / Never realized
Marissa L. Douglas
jo...@flower.aud.temple.edu (John W. Schwegler) writes:
> someone wrote:
> : Donaldson spent the first series creating a world of
> : tremendous beauty, and the second series detailing the complete
> : perversion of everything in it.
> : I cared about the Land as if it were a character - that takes doing.
> One quote (my paraphrase, it's been a year since my last reread):
> "What do you do to the man who's lost everything? Give him back something
> broken."
Yes, that is a fantastic quote :)
Very true also, methinks.
> Mordant's Need drove me up a wall. The series seemed as if it
> came from a completely different author, inferior to the author
> who wrote the Covenant series. On the other hand, I'm eagerly awaiting
> _Now All Gods Must Die_ (I think that's the name for the last book in
> the Gap series).
I honestly didn't mind the Mordant's Need books. Sure Terisa was annoying
as heck but she made me wish I was her big sister so I could hug her and
maybe straighten the poor girl out. On a little side note, Piers Anthony
(gack) has admitted in one of his author's notes that he ripped off the
title "The Mirror of Her Dreams" for his Xanth book "The Color of Her Panties".
Draw your own conclusions about that one....
> -john
-Mari
P.S. The last Gap book is titled _This Day All Gods Die_. It should be a
great read.
Marissa L. Douglas
sch...@hermes.cam.ac.uk (One Slimy Hog) writes:
> In article <4if52k$d...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> arai...@aol.com (ARaibeck)
> writes:
>>- What does it say about Donaldson that he can write of such things? In
>> all of his books, he seems to make women the victims of men: Lena's
>> rape in "Covenant", the heroine in "Mordant's Need" - I forget her name
>> - being sexually used by the villain - I forget his name too (sorry,
>> it's been so long since I've read them), and the brutal assault, both
>> with fists and rape, of Morn Hyland in "Gap".
> Theresa.
Terisa :)
As frequently, or even more frequently it is men who are the victims of
other men, or, as in the case of Linden's father, men who are the victims of
women. I think its more the case of human beings as victims, not a gender
thing.
Stephen R. Donaldson is a *much* less sexist author than Eddings. Not that
I want to start that old debate again, but Donaldson has powerful women
warriors and leaders (the First of the giants, Lord Shetra, Min Donner, Linden
Avery) and leaders, not sneaky, conniving, man-trapping vixens like
Polgara and Vella. Eddings also has the weak, petulant,
I-need-a-man-to-protect-me, crying, hide-my-eyes types like Ce'Nedra.
Last time I said anything like this, however, I was berated by all the men
here, who really I think have a problem understanding how the Eddings
characters who fit my description really turn off women and make it
difficult for us to enjoy the series.
Why do they all take baths every 10 pages???!!
*sigh*
-Mari
Marissa L. Douglas
Fredrik Claesson <sy9...@blg.du.se> writes:
> Nathan Lundblad wrote:
> Of course they are different, some things Donaldson do better, some Jordan.
> That's what's so great with books..They are different..=)
Agreed :)
> Hell no! I was strongly moved by several scenes. I especially liked when
> Covenant gave the giant ghosts of the coast city the coramoor(sp?).
I believe its Camora or something very similar. The ritual cleansing by
fire.
> Fredrik Claesson
> E-mail sy9...@blg.du.se
> Homepage http://www.hfb.se/~sy93fcl
-Mari
Stryker
>
>I would recommened that all books from either of these authors
>are avoided except for the excellent Faerie Tale Adventure by
>Feist. But that's just me.
You really LIKED Faerie Tale? This seems to be his least popular book
too, but it is really his most original. Well, I liked them all though.
Stryker
>
>On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, AD SPINK wrote:
>
>> I would recommened that all books from either of these authors
>> are avoided except for the excellent Faerie Tale Adventure by
>> Feist. But that's just me.
>>
>
>black and your eyes grey with boredom at the lack of characterisation and
>the sheer predictability of the plot.
>
>British Werewolf in Boston
Ummm, the plots of the Belgariad and Magician were pretty original. The
characterization of both authors is very good as well. Lately, both
have started to repeat themselves a little, but I still find them enjoyable.
Gary Baines
before I finished it, so apologies if this apears out of thread.
"Marissa L. Douglas" <MD90...@caper1.uccb.ns.ca > wrote:
>
> In message 18 Mar 1996 23:59:31 GMT,
> Gary Baines <g.ba...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
>
> > someone else wrote:
>
> >> You actually _liked_ Terisa ? I felt some element of sympathy for her,
> >> but if she'd applied two brain cells to her situation for any length
> >> of time,
>
> > I thought the scenes when she was in the dungeon thinking her way through
> > what had happened were great. I think it's a little unfair to suggest
> > she should have pegged the bad guy before then, where was the proof?
>
> I thought she was guilty of thinking with her crotch in falling for Master
> Eremis, one of the slimiest smooth-operators I have had the misfortune to
> encounter in a fantasy novel. Ah...how i long for the pure villany of
> Asharak or Torak...the easy disrepute of Yarblek...hmm maybe Eddings
> villains are more proud of their evil, no hiding it!
True, but it sure was funny waiting to see what would prevent Eremis
having his evil way with her each time he got her alone. The time when
Geraden comes barges in with a summons from the King was hilarious, I can
just imagine the expression on Eremis's face...
> > I thought the supporting cast wasn't bad at all. Artagel and the Tor
> > were my two favourites and of course Prince Kragen in the second book.
> > Saltheart foamfollower and the bloodguard (forget his name) are the ones
> > I best remember from the Covenant novels. IMO it is fair to say that the
> > secondary cast in Mordant's need easily holds its own :)
>
> Artagel was great! The fight with Gert the assassin was something all
> Eddings fans should read since it was sort of in Eddings style.
>
> > Gary.
>
> -Mari
Yes that was one of the highlights, in fact I thought the whole build up and
execution of the final battle was very well done, Donaldson really knows how
to write battle scenes, something we saw in the Wounded Land and Power that
Preserves. Which reminds me of Hile Troy, another great character that
I had forgotten about when I wrote the above piece. I thought he deserved
better than his fate, but the tragic ending was in fitting with the mood of
the books.
I really liked the Covenant novels (the first series anyway), but I much
prefer the lighter tone of Mordants Need. Sure you have a slimy character
in Eremis trying to get off with Terisa, but you always know somethings is
going to happen to stop him succeeding. If it was a Covenant novel he
would have had his evil way with her even if she had destroyed him in the
end. I prefer the fairytale ending :)
I read the first two books of the Gap series, and the first chapter of the
third book. The writting was very good, but I didn't like the story and
it was far too dark and perverse for my taste.
Cheers,
Gary.
Shadowsinger
(*pulling at hair*) Yes... I know. Isn't it *&^%ing maddening?
I don't know if I must learn to read slower, take on more favorite
authors or just grin and bear it and hope they become more proliferate.
(*bemused laugh*)
Speak thee soon.
===================================================================
"Learning that we're only immortal |**Shadowsinger**
For a Limited Time" - N. Peart |Shadow...@greatgig.com
|tlw...@freenet.mb.ca
===================================================================
Courtenay Footman
>However, we *can't* spend more time reading. We read faster than the authors
>write (I just finished a book I waited five bloody years for in about two
>hours. Now, I have to wait some *more* for the second book in the trilogy.
>Aieeee.)
>
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Courtenay Footman I have again gotten back on the net, and
c...@lightlink.com again I will never get anything done.
Cristina Walstad Pulido
Consider how different the Covenant, Mordant, and Gap series are. Is it
possible that people who dislike the Gap series prefer fantasy? I have
to say that I find Donaldson a good enough writer to make me view
fantasy tales (Covenant, Mordant) with a fresh eye, when I had become
jaded. If he can't do that for people who are tired of "hard" SF, that's
a pity.
Does anybody else feel that this is where the problem lies: in the
fantasy/SF divide?
Cristina
Fredrik Claesson
>
> Fredrik Claesson (sy9...@blg.du.se) wrote:
>
> : BUT, I must say that *sniff* Robert Jordan has surpassed him with his Wheel of time. Even
> : though it's not finished yet.
>
> How do you define surpass? In creating an addictive plot, yes. In weaving a tale
> of such complexity to boggle most of us, yes. But emotional depth? In the long
> run, I think tCoTCtU will be recognized as the deeper, more thought-provoking tale.
in Covenant is better. And of course, the Covenant books are far more provoking than tWoT. I don't
think Jordan wants to provoke. Maybe some machoguys are provoked by the strong female influence but I
guess it's good if they woke up to the 20th century, especially since it's soon the 21st...
But to conclude my definition of surpassing, it's just the general feeling I have after reading 6
books of tWoT and the 6 Covenant books. My feeling is that the WoT is better. Of course they are
different..=)
> I'm not saying tWoT is fluff. It's not. But Donaldson and Jordan subscribe to
> two completely different fantasy paradigms, and to say Jordan has surpassed
> Donaldson is, at the very least, something that requires more argument than
> some overdone sarcasm. Btw, are you saying you didn't find Covenant confronting
> his shades in tWL a powerful scene? Wow.
Hell no! I was strongly moved by several scenes. I especially liked when Covenant gave the
giant ghosts of the coast city the coramoor(sp?). Great scene.
(I hope it was giants, I've read a swedish translation and in those books they are called trolls, but
I mean hmm, Foamfollowers? kin.
--
***************************************************
Richard Carrington
None of the main core of Jordan characters (the ones that all appeared
in EOTW) have died yet either. And although I like the series, I'm never
especially worried about this main band of characters (Mat, Perrin,
Elayne, Egwene, Rand etc, etc) because I always feel they'll get
through. So although the stakes are high in WOT, the dangers don't seem
as real as in other fantasy works. Magical balls of light, or magical
visions etc happen, but I challenge anyone to say that they still worry
about the characters' lives when they do. People here discuss what
various magical occurences mean, but they never say "Whoa. That was a
close one. Egewene nearly died."
IMO, the next book needs to kill someone dear to us off. If the dark one
and his darkfriends are so powerful, why are there so many people
running around opposing him and still living six books later?
This unwillingness of Jordan to really endanger any of his main
characters is a major weakness of the series. If the evil is great then
the dangers must be REAL. People we care for have to die or suffer
terrible disabling injuries etc. Yes, I know people die in WOT, but it's
never anyone we care about and never a core character.
Infact, there's few fantasy writers writing with the nerve to kill off
characters we love. GGKay in Tigana does it with the main female
character...and the moment when Dianora swims out to sea at the end of
the book is one of the greatest tragic moments in fantasy literature.
Jordan should have similar tragedies and real danger in his subsequent
books if he is to make the threat of the dark one seem real.
Richard
Elliot C Fertik
: In message 18 Mar 1996 22:02:30 GMT,
: jo...@flower.aud.temple.edu (John W. Schwegler) writes:
: > someone wrote:
: > Mordant's Need drove me up a wall. The series seemed as if it
: > came from a completely different author, inferior to the author
: > who wrote the Covenant series. On the other hand, I'm eagerly awaiting
: > _Now All Gods Must Die_ (I think that's the name for the last book in
: > the Gap series).
: I honestly didn't mind the Mordant's Need books. Sure Terisa was annoying
: as heck but she made me wish I was her big sister so I could hug her and
: maybe straighten the poor girl out. On a little side note, Piers Anthony
: (gack) has admitted in one of his author's notes that he ripped off the
: title "The Mirror of Her Dreams" for his Xanth book "The Color of Her Panties".
: Draw your own conclusions about that one....
: > -john
This just goes to show how people can have completely different reactions
to the same book. I LOVED Mordant's Need, and still quite honestly think
of it as my favorite fantasy series of all time. And that includes quite
a few books. I still find Terisa and Geraden to be two of the most
symphathetic, lovable heroes in all of fantasy literature. Covenant is
probably better as literature, but its Mordant's Need I often find myself
going back to. I would also point out that the whole system of mirror
magic was fresh and original, unlike most other fantasy series.
-Elliot Fertik
: -Mari
Marissa L. Douglas
Gary Baines <g.ba...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
> someone else wrote:
>> You actually _liked_ Terisa ? I felt some element of sympathy for her,
>> but if she'd applied two brain cells to her situation for any length
>> of time,
> I thought the scenes when she was in the dungeon thinking her way through
> what had happened were great. I think it's a little unfair to suggest
> she should have pegged the bad guy before then, where was the proof?
I thought she was guilty of thinking with her crotch in falling for Master
Eremis, one of the slimiest smooth-operators I have had the misfortune to
encounter in a fantasy novel. Ah...how i long for the pure villany of
Asharak or Torak...the easy disrepute of Yarblek...hmm maybe Eddings
villains are more proud of their evil, no hiding it!
> I thought the supporting cast wasn't bad at all. Artagel and the Tor
Jeff Stehman
: Infact, there's few fantasy writers writing with the nerve to kill off
: characters we love. GGKay in Tigana does it with the main female
: character...and the moment when Dianora swims out to sea at the end of
: the book is one of the greatest tragic moments in fantasy literature.
That's a big reason why I enjoy McKiernen's early work (haven't read
anything recently). Not only is he willing to kill main characters, he's
willing to have missions fail in death and then turn out to be completely
pointless. I found that incredibly refreshing.
--
Jeff Stehman Senior Systems Administrator
ste...@southwind.net SouthWind Internet Access, Inc.
voice: (316)263-7963 Wichita, KS
URL for Wichita Area Chamber of Commerce: http://www.southwind.net/ict/
Elena Bianco
Richard Carrington <rich...@icscom.com> wrote:
>>>no one dies. It's all goodie-goodie.<<
>
>None of the main core of Jordan characters (the ones that all appeared
>in EOTW) have died yet either. And although I like the series, I'm never
>especially worried about this main band of characters (Mat, Perrin,
>Elayne, Egwene, Rand etc, etc) because I always feel they'll get
>through. So although the stakes are high in WOT, the dangers don't seem
>as real as in other fantasy works. Magical balls of light, or magical
>visions etc happen, but I challenge anyone to say that they still worry
>about the characters' lives when they do. People here discuss what
>various magical occurences mean, but they never say "Whoa. That was a
>close one. Egewene nearly died."
Uh, what about Moiraine? Mat? He nearly died several times. Actually
did once. 'Course, RJ could kill off Rand. Yeah. DO wins. whoopy!
BLECH!
[munch the critique's stuff]
I'm sorry, but I think that RJ has more than justified, in
an entirely believable, why none of the 'main' characters
has gotten offed yet. I might point out, that he has suggested
that Nynaeve might bite it.
"Aan'allein will die on the day he learns that you are dead."
-Melaine, to Nynaeve, tFoH, Meetings
Of course this might be meaningless. We know Lan is going to become
Nynaeve's warder. And Warders tend to avenge the death of their AS.
It could be in the very far future. Or maybe not.
--
******************************************************
Elena Bianco
E-mail: ebi...@u.washington.edu
WWW Home Page: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~ebianco/
Gary Baines
No I like both SF and fantasy and still cann't stand the Gap series, but
like the rest of his work. The problem with the Gap series is that is is
too dark and brutal for me.
Gary.
A.Jante
> On 17 Mar 1996 rsf...@uncg.edu wrote:
>> However, we *can't* spend more time reading. We read faster than the authors
>> write (I just finished a book I waited five bloody years for in about two
>> hours. Now, I have to wait some *more* for the second book in the trilogy.
>> Aieeee.)
>(*pulling at hair*) Yes... I know. Isn't it *&^%ing maddening?
>I don't know if I must learn to read slower, take on more favorite
>authors or just grin and bear it and hope they become more proliferate.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Well, maybe if we splash some water on our favorite authors they'll
split into lots of little favorite authors and proliferate in a
gremlin-like fashion.
Well, what do you say, authors? Anyone for a splash? I'll even feed you
guys after midnight:)
Alyn
Donal K. Fellows
> In article <4i9ds3$d...@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>
> fell...@cs.man.ac.uk (Donal K. Fellows) writes:
[ My own stuff elided, as it isn't relevant to the following ]
> w0000! Donal's back!! yaaaaaaay! :)
Yes, and I'd be back more often if other people would actually say
something more often... :^)
(I'm usually in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan and comp.lang.tcl,
as well as on the FEISTFANS-L list at Cornell)
I suspect that you may well see me quite a bit more just after PtS is
published (a day or two after I've got the book is my current guess -
so perhaps as much asa week after it becomes available in the UK :^)
I still keep an eye on a.f.e from time to time, but the level of
signal there is _very_ low, and I'm usually bored by author
comparisons...
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows, (at work) | Donal K. Fellows, (at home)
Dept. of Computer Science, | 6, Randall Place, Heaton,
University of Manchester | Bradford, BD9 4AE
U.K. Tel: ++44-161-275-6137 | U.K. Tel: ++44-1274-401017
fell...@cs.man.ac.uk (preferred) | do...@ugglan.demon.co.uk (if you must)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
<http://r8h.cs.man.ac.uk:8000/> for my home page
Gary Baines
>This just goes to show how people can have completely different reactions
>to the same book. I LOVED Mordant's Need, and still quite honestly think
>of it as my favorite fantasy series of all time. And that includes quite
>a few books. I still find Terisa and Geraden to be two of the most
>symphathetic, lovable heroes in all of fantasy literature. Covenant is
>probably better as literature, but its Mordant's Need I often find myself
>going back to. I would also point out that the whole system of mirror
>magic was fresh and original, unlike most other fantasy series.
>
>-Elliot Fertik
>
I couldn't have put it better myself. A Man rides through is my most read
book bar none, and I read a lot or books! I rank it as my number one without
needing to even think about it.
Gary.
Scott Jeter
> I wonder which Donaldson books are being thought of here?
> If we're talking about the Covenant books (Lord Foul's
> Bane, et al) we have what may be the finest epic fantasy
> ever written (woth the possible exception of Tolkien).
> OTOH, the Mordant's need books are bloody near unreadable
> (only MHO, of course). The difference in quality has always amazed
> me. (I'm ignorant of his SF "Gap" series).
> --
Personally I read and enjoyed both 'Covenant' series. I am also a fan of
sf, so when Donaldson came out with his 'Gap' series, I thought, 'Great,
best of both!'
Well, to be blunt, I did not like the gap stories. I found them hard to
read. The writing seemed a little muddy to me. My opinion is that
Donaldson should stick with fantasy--or maybe his next attempt at sf will
work better.
BTW, what is "Mordant's Need"? This sounds familiar, but I don't
remember it.
------
scott jeter
bje...@odin.cbu.edu
------
Jay Ashworth
:
: >- What does it say about Donaldson that he can write of such things? In
: >all of his books, he seems to make women the victims of men: Lena's rape
: >in "Covenant", the heroine in "Mordant's Need" - I forget her name - being
: >sexually used by the villain - I forget his name too (sorry, it's been so
: >long since I've read them), and the brutal assault, both with fists and
: >rape, of Morn Hyland in "Gap".
In the first TC series, I read 'Power that Preserves' first (book 3),
and, sure, i was _somewhat_ clueless when the story referenced earlier
events, BUT i think it gave me a little different perspective on
Tommy Boy. I.e., I didn't enter the series with his fits of
depression (well... sorta), his momentary madness when he first comes to
the Land, and his constant whining ('this is a dream'... 'this is a
dream'... 'this is a dream'...). I'm exaggerating here, but my point
is that by book 3, Tommy is fairly likeable, YES he is still the same
person, YES he still believes it's all a dream, BUT he has grown to
care about the Land (dream or not) and he cares about the
inhabitants, like the High Lord Mhoram???, Foamfollower, etc, (been a long
time since I read the series).
To address your complaint, I don't believe that Donaldson is some
depraved individual because he has a rape scene in one of his books.
Without trying to justify this action, let me just say: 1) Covenant
perceives the Land as a dream, 2) at this point in the story, his mental
state is _especially_ unhealthy.
Real people make mistakes, why not fictional ones?
I've read Mordant's Need a dozen times in the last ten years, and I never
thought of Terisa as a victim. Or even sexually _used_. That implies
that something is happening that _she_ _doesn't_ _want_. And for the
majority of the series, she's confused and doesn't know WHAT she wants,
often times she goes TO Eremis in hopes of being 'used'. It's only near
the beginning of the second book, that she becomes devoted to Geraden.
After this, there are two incidents where Eremis tries to 'use' her. If
you're trying to make this a sexist thing, let me point out that Eremis's
ally, Gilbur, likes 'male meat' and apparantly 'uses' Geradon's brother,
Nyle. 1) shit happens, 2) these are the bad guys we're talking about,
they like rape, killing, putting cats in the microwave, etc.
I haven't read the Gap series so I can't make a comment on that
incident.
: >- What does it say about me that I read his books, and usually enjoy them?
: >What does it say about other people who read Donaldson?
Whether you like the character of Thomas Covenant or not, the series is
still a classic. Donaldson created one of the most vivid settings for a
fantasy series that I have come across. And Mordant's Need had been my
favorite series for many, many years. (only recently replaced by
Jordan's Wheel of Time) There is much more to these books than a rape
scene, or a sexual assault, or whatever. And, if that is what you're
dwelling on when you read these then you're missing a lot.
-Rumour
******************************************************************
"But pretty women were always Rahvin's weakness. He likes to have
two or three or four at once dancing attendance on him."
-Robert Jordan, The Shadow Rising
Lucky Rahvin. 'Course... he DID get balefiredd
Jay McFadyen
> do they all take baths every 10 pages???!!
To annoy the male characters of course...
--
Jay McFadyen
Development Tools and Infrastructure, C2PSD, Ford Motor Company
mcfa...@cadcam.pd9.ford.com or JMCFADYE
(313) 33-73359
Scott Jeter
> Polgara and Vella. Eddings also has the weak, petulant,
> I-need-a-man-to-protect-me, crying, hide-my-eyes types like Ce'Nedra.
> Last time I said anything like this, however, I was berated by all the men
> here, who really I think have a problem understanding how the Eddings
> characters who fit my description really turn off women and make it
> difficult for us to enjoy the series.
>
> -Mari
I actually *read* the foreword in "Belgerath the Sorcerer", in which it
is stated that BOTH David and Leigh Eddings wrote the 'David Eddings' books.
What does this have to do with your comments? Well I will try to explain
what I mean.
It seems to me that much of the 'stereotyping' you refer to is meant as
tongue in cheek ribbing--intentionally exaggerated. The constant give and
take between mates in the stories strikes me as a healthy way for mates
to get along. I *think* that *maybe* this is how the Eddings get along.
I cannot speak to how women see the stories, but as a man, I don't think
they stereotype women, I think they just make fun of women's habits and
men's shortcomings in dealing with them.
Just my opinion...
Steve Ptac
> > Polgara and Vella. Eddings also has the weak, petulant,
> > I-need-a-man-to-protect-me, crying, hide-my-eyes types like Ce'Nedra.
> > Last time I said anything like this, however, I was berated by all the men
> > here, who really I think have a problem understanding how the Eddings
> > characters who fit my description really turn off women and make it
> > difficult for us to enjoy the series.
> > Why do they all take baths every 10 pages???!!
> >
> > *sigh*
> > -Mari
>
Sorry I know four females that have read the series .. they all loved it.
My wife, sister , friend's wife , and another friend.
My wife personally loves the humor the most.
Steve Ptac
Stryker
>> write (I just finished a book I waited five bloody years for in about two
>> hours. Now, I have to wait some *more* for the second book in the trilogy.
>> Aieeee.)
>>
>>
>>
>
>(*pulling at hair*) Yes... I know. Isn't it *&^%ing maddening?
>I don't know if I must learn to read slower, take on more favorite
>authors or just grin and bear it and hope they become more proliferate.
>
>Speak thee soon.
Finally, some nice things about Eddings and Feist:) :) :) Write faster,
but write well:) Please:)
Dana Crom
Scott Jeter <bje...@odin.cbu.edu> wrote:
>I actually *read* the foreword in "Belgerath the Sorcerer", in which it
>is stated that BOTH David and Leigh Eddings wrote the 'David Eddings' books.
>
>What does this have to do with your comments? Well I will try to explain
>what I mean.
>
>It seems to me that much of the 'stereotyping' you refer to is meant as
>tongue in cheek ribbing--intentionally exaggerated. The constant give and
>take between mates in the stories strikes me as a healthy way for mates
>to get along. I *think* that *maybe* this is how the Eddings get along.
Hmmph. That kind of back-and-forth is how my wife and I get along; as
long as it's understood by both parties, it's pretty health - I zing
her, she zings me, we both enjoy it. To someone who doesn't know us,
it probably sounds like pointless squabling; to us, it's a way of showing
love and defusing tension at the same time.
Most of the healthy, long-term couples I know have some similar mechanism.
It's the couples that alternate between cooing affection and screaming
that worry me.
>I cannot speak to how women see the stories, but as a man, I don't think
>they stereotype women, I think they just make fun of women's habits and
>men's shortcomings in dealing with them.
The Eddings stereotype both men and women; if anything, the men come off
as even greater blockheads than the women when it comes to relationships.
Then again, who in their right mind would read *Eddings* to see how
relationships work? That's like reading Niven for the nuts-and-bolts
technical details.
--
--------------------------+----------------------------------------------------
Dana Crom (415) 933-1449 / I now have a mental picture of a "Hotditarod" where
da...@morc.mfg.sgi.com / a team of naked humans drags a dog in air-conditioned
Silicon Graphics, Inc. / comfort from Mexico City to Buenos Aires - L. Smith
A.Jante
> Another point to note perhaps is some of the Hard SF authors have
>written heaps of books eg Heinlein has written over 20 - I have read
>most and only like some. The question is therefore if you like an
>author in a particular field will you like everything they turn out
>and the same if they try another field - will you like the change?
>
>Thoughts any one?
Well, I prefer fantasy but will read SF occasionally. I adore Elizabeth
Moon's Deed of Paksenarrion but only read one of her sf books - it was
ok but nothing special (to me) so I never bother to try any of her other
sf.
Alyn
People Covered In Fish
> No I like both SF and fantasy and still cann't stand the Gap series, but
> like the rest of his work. The problem with the Gap series is that is is
> too dark and brutal for me.
I also like both SF and fantasy (more the fantasy, I admit) and appreciate
Donaldson as someone who's managed to do both well. Margaret Weis (hard
though it is to take most of her stuff seriously) pulled it off with Star
of the Guardians; Andre Norton, Janny Wurts (well, she's always kind of
borderline) and Orson Scott Card also spring to mind.
Yeah, I confess-- I do like the Gap Cycle. Sure, it's dark and brutal;
sure, the first book was an exploration of the author's dark/perverted/
savage side thinly masked as an exercise in melodrama; and yes, book one
kind of sucked. Frankly, I was hooked by the epilogue to _Real Story_. I
always like to see great epics (the Ring Cycle, Paradise Lost) transcribed
into science fiction. That got me to pick up book two. By forty pages
into it, I was really hooked.
Apart from the epic analog, there are several other things I like about
the Gap series. First are the characters. I don't think I've EVER read a
book in which every (major AND secondary) character stood out so starkkly
from the page. Plus, they all have cool names. :)
Second, I like his pacing. The ""heroes"" (calls for a double set of
quotes) are continually riding on the verge of utter destruction/collapse,
yet survive against all odds. And it's believable, unlike the crappy deus
ex machinae so common in other authors. I was literally out of breath when
I finished _Dark & Hungry God_. I also like the redemption theme other
people have mentioned, and the political intrigue, and the Amnion concept,
and lots of other stuff. With all that, I can get past the brutality and
evil.
I do agree with a later post, though, that _Mordant's Need_ was also
really, REALLY good. One of the best series I've ever read, in fact. The
mirror magic was ingenious, the characters were highly readable, and the
whole world had a very unique, mythic _feel_ to it. I particularly loved
Geraden's brothers, the Monomach, and King Joyce. The fact that Donaldson
had enough self-restraint to write only two books also scored high points
with me. :)
Joel
JOHN ABEL
*snip*
>>
>> I wonder which Donaldson books are being thought of here?
>> If we're talking about the Covenant books (Lord Foul's
>> Bane, et al) we have what may be the finest epic fantasy
>> ever written (woth the possible exception of Tolkien).
>> OTOH, the Mordant's need books are bloody near unreadable
>> (only MHO, of course). The difference in quality has always amazed
>> me. (I'm ignorant of his SF "Gap" series).
>> --
*snip*
To clarify for readers - the following is very much IMHO
I love Eddings, don't mind Feist but I much prefer the stuff he did
with Janny Wurtz - and her Light/Shadow series is really brilliant -
lots of tortured souls and unrequited love, hated Covenant (and of
course) liked Mordants Need.
In another threads there are some other authors debated - the rest of
my adore list is - Guy Gavriel Kay, Anne McCaffery, K Kurtz, J
Roberson, Julian May, Melanie Rawn, MZB, Heinlein, Piers Anthony and
Robin McKinley.
The thing I love about SF so much is that there is infinite variety -
not only to stories but authors and styles. I've been reading SF for
nearly 20 years and not tired of it yet! :-)
Stacey
Stacey Hill "I have to get these ideas out of my head -
so I have room for new ones!"
jsa...@voyager.co.nz
Email at srh @ alpine.co.nz
JOHN ABEL
>Cristina Walstad Pulido <c.w.p...@sosiologi.uio.no> wrote:
>>I disagree. I find the variety of themes Donaldson explores fascinating.
>>Consider how different the Covenant, Mordant, and Gap series are. Is it
>>possible that people who dislike the Gap series prefer fantasy? I have
>>to say that I find Donaldson a good enough writer to make me view
>>fantasy tales (Covenant, Mordant) with a fresh eye, when I had become
>>jaded. If he can't do that for people who are tired of "hard" SF, that's
>>a pity.
>>
>>Does anybody else feel that this is where the problem lies: in the
>>fantasy/SF divide?
>>
>>Cristina
>>
>No I like both SF and fantasy and still cann't stand the Gap series, but
>like the rest of his work. The problem with the Gap series is that is is
>too dark and brutal for me.
>Gary.
I agree with Gary - although I couldn't stand Thomas Covenant.
However I would like to propose an author I have not yet seen
mentioned so far, Storm Constantine - her stuff could be classed as
either fiction or fantasy. Some I like and some not. So there you go
:) I have deviated a bit from the original thread but I am trying to
answer the original question of SF v Fantasy by one author.
Another point to note perhaps is some of the Hard SF authors have
written heaps of books eg Heinlein has written over 20 - I have read
most and only like some. The question is therefore if you like an
author in a particular field will you like everything they turn out
and the same if they try another field - will you like the change?
Thoughts any one?
Stacey
rsf...@uncg.edu
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.96...@winnie.freenet.mb.ca>,
tlw...@freenet.mb.ca says...
>>
>> On 17 Mar 1996 rsf...@uncg.edu wrote:
>>> However, we *can't* spend more time reading. We read faster than they
>>> write (I just finished a book I waited five bloody years for in about two
>>> hours. Now, I have to wait some *more* for the second book in the trilogy.
>>> Aieeee.)
>>(*pulling at hair*) Yes... I know. Isn't it *&^%ing maddening?
>>I don't know if I must learn to read slower, take on more favorite
>>authors or just grin and bear it and hope they become more proliferate.
>Finally, some nice things about Eddings and Feist:) :) :) Write faster,
>but write well:) Please:)
Of course, my response was not about Eddings and Feist. The book that I waited
five years for was _Bleak Seasons_, volume one of _Glittering Stone_, by Glen
Cook. I, I should note, have little respect for either of the above authors.
Rob F.
Torbj|rn Andersson
[Well, actually it was signed "Joel", but that's what the header said.]
> I do agree with a later post, though, that _Mordant's Need_ was also
> really, REALLY good. One of the best series I've ever read, in fact. The
> mirror magic was ingenious, the characters were highly readable, and the
> whole world had a very unique, mythic _feel_ to it. I particularly loved
> Geraden's brothers, the Monomach, and King Joyce. The fact that Donaldson
> had enough self-restraint to write only two books also scored high points
> with me. :)
It actually took quite long before I bought those books, even though I
like both the Covenant and Gap books, because I kept wondering when the
third book would be out. The idea that books like that don't always
come in threes didn't occur to me. :-)
Once I did grasp this fairly obvious fact, I found I quite liked them.
(Of course, the Swedish translators have "fixed" the problem by
releasing it as four books. Well, three, actually last time I checked,
since they hadn't translated the whole thing yet by then, and maybe
they still haven't. Good thing I can read English well enough usually
to make my own translations.)
_
Torbjorn Andersson
Stryker
>
>In article <4it6kq$3...@tribune.cris.com>, Rock...@cris.com (Stryker) writes:
>
>>In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.96...@winnie.freenet.mb.ca>,
>tlw...@freenet.mb.ca says...
>>Finally, some nice things about Eddings and Feist:) :) :) Write faster,
>>but write well:) Please:)
>
>Of course, my response was not about Eddings and Feist. The book that I waited
>five years for was _Bleak Seasons_, volume one of _Glittering Stone_, by Glen
>Cook. I, I should note, have little respect for either of the above authors.
>
> Rob F.
Sorry, I saw the heading and the write faster, and what little was
snipped in and thought you must want them to write faster too:) Well,
a lot of people don't like Feist and Eddings. People have different tastes,
I guess.
Francis A. Ney, Jr.
> Of course, my response was not about Eddings and Feist. The book that I waited
> five years for was _Bleak Seasons_, volume one of _Glittering Stone_, by Glen
> Cook. I, I should note, have little respect for either of the above authors.
Fear not, Glen is writing. A sentence at a time between bolt-tightenings, but
he is writing.
Come to think of it, he may have gotten a few days of solid writing due to
recent events...
---
Frank Ney WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A N4ZHG LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO
Sponsor, BATF Abuse page http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
West Virginia Coordinator, Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus
"[E]lections amount to no more than choosing between the scum that floats to
the top of the barrel and the dregs that settle to the bottom."
- L. Neil Smith
Scott Silvey
] >especially worried about this main band of characters (Mat, Perrin,
] >Elayne, Egwene, Rand etc, etc) because I always feel they'll get
] >through.
] Uh, what about Moiraine?
We don't know that Moiraine actually died. In fact, there is wide
speculation among most readers that she'll make a "surprise"
reappearance in some later book.
] Mat? He nearly died several times.
Those last two words right off should be a clue that something is
really wrong here... "several times"? This brings up an even greater
weakness that Jordan has exhibited... the Fake Death Syndrome (we
should probably come up with a name for this disease ... probably named
after one of the characters on Star Trek or something). So far with
Moiraine and Mat, that's at least 3 fake deaths that he has staged.
This is worse than them not dying at all! Even if someone big DOES die
in the future, we'll all find it hard to believe that they're actually
gone now. By doing this, Jordan has basically robbed himself of a
powerful way of stirring up emotions in his readers... If someone dies
a valiant death in the future, readers will be much less likely to be
moved because the immediate reaction will be "they can't be really gone
... so how is RJ going to resurrect _this_ person?"
The odd thing is that in one of his online interviews, Jordan claims to
never let sympathy for his characters affect his writing of them in the
plot. I don't believe that, however. I find it really hard to feel that
the main characters are ever in mortal danger and as a result his books
are merely amusing instead of being truly engaging.
] 'Course, RJ could kill off Rand. Yeah. DO wins. whoopy!
] BLECH!
There's a good chance that Rand will bite it in the end anyway. I really
hope Jordan doesn't make it a fairy tale ending...
Scott
Scott Silvey
] That's a big reason why I enjoy McKiernen's early work (haven't read
] anything recently). Not only is he willing to kill main characters, he's
] willing to have missions fail in death and then turn out to be completely
] pointless. I found that incredibly refreshing.
When people start finding pointless death to be "incredibly refreshing",
you know something really odd is going on...
Scott
Shadowsinger
> >>Finally, some nice things about Eddings and Feist:) :) :) Write faster,
> >>but write well:) Please:)
> >
> >Of course, my response was not about Eddings and Feist. The book that I waited
> >five years for was _Bleak Seasons_, volume one of _Glittering Stone_, by Glen
> >Cook. I, I should note, have little respect for either of the above authors.
> >
> > Rob F.
>
> Sorry, I saw the heading and the write faster, and what little was
> snipped in and thought you must want them to write faster too:) Well,
> a lot of people don't like Feist and Eddings. People have different tastes,
> I guess.
>
>
>
(*Laughter*) S'okay -- my fault, i guess, since you didn't specify. I
wasn't talking specifically about them either, really... the book I was
thinking of when i wrote it was Lord of Chaos by Robert Jordan.
(*snicker*) So i guess we're even.
Take care.
===================================================================
"Learning that we're only immortal |**Shadowsinger**
For a Limited Time" - N. Peart |Shadow...@greatgig.com
|tlw...@freenet.mb.ca
===================================================================
Daniel Tropea
and Tannith Lee easily surpass all three.
Marissa L. Douglas
Scott Jeter <bje...@odin.cbu.edu> writes:
> I cannot speak to how women see [Eddings'] stories, but as a man, I don't
> think they stereotype women, I think they just make fun of women's
> habits and men's shortcomings in dealing with them.
What about men's habits? What about male stereotypes?
> scott jeter
-Mari
A. Young
: In message Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:25:00 -0600,
: Scott Jeter <bje...@odin.cbu.edu> writes:
What about the drinking habits of Belgarath, Silk, Yarblek.... What
about Barak's ridiculous attachment to his beard... Eddings picks the
characteristic most suited to the person, and makes the most of it,
whether the character is male or female...
AJY
Michael D. Steeves
Marissa L. Douglas <MD90...@caper1.uccb.ns.ca> wrote:
= In message Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:25:00 -0600,
= Scott Jeter <bje...@odin.cbu.edu> writes:
= > I cannot speak to how women see [Eddings'] stories, but as a man, I don't
= > think they stereotype women, I think they just make fun of women's
= > habits and men's shortcomings in dealing with them.
=
= What about men's habits? What about male stereotypes?
Those are different.
-darkelf
--
Death before dishonor / Drugs before lunch
-Aspen Gun and Drug Club
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.cs.uml.edu/~msteeves | mste...@cs.uml.edu
john carlos prezas
: In article <4hb2hg$5...@news-f.iadfw.net>, Terry Butler <tbu...@airmail.net> writes:
: >Rock...@cris.com (Stryker) wrote:
: >>In article <4h9v9k$g...@salyko.cube.net>, oco...@cublx1.cube.net says...
: [...Pugs Power...]
: >I agree. Pug is too powerful, but on the other hand the combined forces of
: >the Emerald Queen, the Pantathians,& the Saurr have more power than Pug
: >does. So it could turn out to be a major magical battle, which would be
: >awesome. I still think Pug is an interesting character. What he needs to
: >do is go back to Kelewan to see how things are there. -Joe
: Last I heard of Kelewan things were doing fine - what with Mara being
: Mistress of the Empire and such. :-)
: Waiting for Merchant Prince to reach paperback here...sigh.
: Regards
: Michael.
I just got rise of a Merchant prince in hardback from the SFBC!
(Science Fiction Book Club). I plan to start reading immediately.
The one I can't find is daughter of the empire. I have Shadow and the
rest of the riftwar stuff.
jcp
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi
:
: -Mari
I wouldnt call Eddings' male characters stereotypes as much as I would
call them archtypes. Silk (obviously) is the stereotypical thief (with
some cosmetic changes) , Belgarath fits the 'Mighty Merlin' archtype
quite well etc. I just wish that he would have used more than one
female archtype for his heroines thou.
--
jaripekka
jpju...@paju.oulu.fi jpju...@phoenix.oulu.fi
erik...@lexmark.com
Velvet (thief-assassin), Polgara (mighty sorceress), Ce'Nedra (spoiled princess),
Cyradis (seeress), Porenn (highly effective queen), Vella (Amazon?)
And lets not forget the 'bad guy' was a powerful sorceress as well.
And one thing I am thankful for -- at least Eddings didn't try to explain
the female psyche in depth (being a man, that is impossible for him.)
Erik Ward
People Covered In Fish
> > I just wish that he would have used more than one
> > female archtype for his heroines thou.
>
> Velvet (thief-assassin), Polgara (mighty sorceress), Ce'Nedra (spoiled princess),
> Cyradis (seeress), Porenn (highly effective queen), Vella (Amazon?)
>
> And lets not forget the 'bad guy' was a powerful sorceress as well.
Yeah, but those aren't exactly archetypes (sorceress and spolied princess,
maybe, but seeress?). Those are character roles. All his women are
either highly efficient, highly sarcastic, yet highly dependent (Pol,
CeNedra, Porenn) or complete wallflowers (Cyradis, Layla). Zandramas
doesn't really count, since she's never really treated as a woman.
> And one thing I am thankful for -- at least Eddings didn't try to explain
> the female psyche in depth (being a man, that is impossible for him.)
Ha! On this, I think I agree with you. :)
Joel