A white universe in science fiction?
juliakicksass
depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5, we see a
predominance of white humans and though there are some
token characters that are black, asian, or of other
cultures, it seems to me that there is better character
development for those characters that are aliens than those
that are ethnic.
In Bio of a Space Tyrant, ethnicity determines what planet
you live on. Though a little more progressive with a
latino lead character, still most of the characters we see
are caucasian.
Maybe Bladerunner was the most hones in portraying a
heavily congested community with lots of asian faces on it
(well china is like 1/10th the world's population).
What's up with that? Doesn't it seem more probable that in
the future, Humans should look like a mix of many ethnic
backgrounds and not predominately just one?
What do you guys think of this?
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Sea Wasp
>
> I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
> depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>
> In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5, we see a
> predominance of white humans and though there are some
> token characters that are black, asian, or of other
> cultures, it seems to me that there is better character
> development for those characters that are aliens than those
> that are ethnic.
>
> In Bio of a Space Tyrant, ethnicity determines what planet
> you live on. Though a little more progressive with a
> latino lead character, still most of the characters we see
> are caucasian.
>
> Maybe Bladerunner was the most hones in portraying a
> heavily congested community with lots of asian faces on it
> (well china is like 1/10th the world's population).
>
> What's up with that? Doesn't it seem more probable that in
> the future, Humans should look like a mix of many ethnic
> backgrounds and not predominately just one?
>
> What do you guys think of this?
I think you write what you know. I happen to be white. While I do on
occasion put in characters of other ethnic extractions, it's difficult
to do if those ethnic extractions are to be anything other than a
surface paint job. I'm not from the inner city, and I'm not black, so if
I tried to make an inner-city black character I would no doubt fail
miserably in doing so. A black character who comes from the same
socioeconomic background that I do ... well, he will probably behave the
same as I do, pretty much, so making him black is rather pointless then,
unless there's some plot-driven reason to make him black.
In futuristic SF, I sort of randomly choose the genetic background of a
character -- but the character's BEHAVIOR is determined by the society
they grow up in, in which case it doesn't MATTER if they're white,
green, or black.
So in short I suspect the "white bread" SF tendencies are driven more
by who does the writing than by any true racism. I would bet that if the
writers are black, they have a much higher tendency to make the
characters black; the same probably goes for oriental, female, Native
American, or any other racial/social/cultural group.
--
Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html
/^\
;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at
http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html
gme...@trinity.edu
Demographics and marketing should explain the rest.
It is hard for an American or European white person to
write convincingly of another ethnic group.
Can there be niche marketing for other groups? Certainly, there
has been success with Spanish language TV. On the other hand,
an African-American comic line (Milestone) wasn't a success.
Otto
<anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
>depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>
>In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5,
...all of which are television shows or movies, which have the notable
disadvantage (from a 'diversity' standpoint) of being made in the
white-majority Hollwood region. Were there more non-white actors, I'm
quite certain that there would have been more non-white roles in, say,
"Star Wars".
Commodore Otto
Andrew Plotkin
> I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
> depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>
> predominance of white humans and though there are some
> token characters that are black, asian, or of other
> cultures, it seems to me that there is better character
> development for those characters that are aliens than those
> that are ethnic.
I think you're focussing much too heavily on TV SF. TV SF shows almost
always depict the same ethnic mix as current American culture. It would be
unmarketable otherwise. The Average Television Watcher couldn't get past
the superficial strangeness of an unfamiliar color balance. I don't mean
he would refuse to watch the show -- but I *do* think he couldn't watch
the show *as being about anything other than race*. It would get in the
way of the story, unless every single episode *was* about race.
Written SF is a whole different kettle of melanin.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Jordan S. Bassior
>In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5, we see a
>predominance of white humans and though there are some
>token characters that are black, asian, or of other
>cultures, it seems to me that there is better character
>development for those characters that are aliens than those
>that are ethnic.
I think that this is more a matter of the ethnic breakdown of Hollywood actors
than of prejudiced casting or writing. In the case of Star Wars, of course,
none of the present-day Earthly ethnicities exist anyway; it's "a long time ago
in a galaxy far, far away" as you may recall :)
>In Bio of a Space Tyrant, ethnicity determines what planet
>you live on.
Yes. Anthony's Solar System in that universe is a direct parody of 20th century
Earth.
> Though a little more progressive with a
>latino lead character
ROFL!!! You can use the word "progressive" in this sentence with a straight
face? What's more "progressive" about a Hispanic lead character as opposed to
(say) an Italian or Russian one?
>Maybe Bladerunner was the most honest in portraying a
>heavily congested community with lots of asian faces on it
>(well china is like 1/10th the world's population).
Though note that the major characters were all Caucasian.
>What's up with that? Doesn't it seem more probable that in
>the future, Humans should look like a mix of many ethnic
>backgrounds and not predominately just one?
>
I suspect that past the next century, the ethnic groups we currently consider
as "races" won't even exist anymore, save in backwater areas, and new "races"
will be emerging outside the cosmopolitan areas.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
>depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
I find it more annoying than disturbing.
>Maybe Bladerunner was the most hones in portraying a
>heavily congested community with lots of asian faces on it
>(well china is like 1/10th the world's population).
No, China is one-FIFTH of the world's population. India is
one-eighth.
>What's up with that? Doesn't it seem more probable that in
>the future, Humans should look like a mix of many ethnic
>backgrounds and not predominately just one?
>
>What do you guys think of this?
I think that when Hollywood thinks about the subject at all, they
makes assumptions about what their audience will accept, and also rely
heavily on what's available from the casting director. This is
improving slowly -- far more slowly than it should. That "Blade
Runner" was not particularly successful at the box office didn't help.
(It's recognized _now_ as a minor classic -- and when it first came
out many people predicted it would be -- but it didn't actually sell
as many tickets as the studio expected.)
And in _written_ SF, which is what this newsgroup is devoted to...
well, it depends on the author. Some depict mixed-race or
Asian-dominated futures; others never mention anyone's race; and
others do indeed show white-dominated cultures, for one reason or
another.
In my own SF novels I've shown...
a near-future (2011) world where racial distribution is much as it is
now;
a planet settled entirely by American Christians where the planet's
inhabitants are all white but offworlders are largely black and Asian;
a planet where the economy is dominated by Japanese-surnamed families,
most of the population has Chinese surnames, the lower classes are
largely white, and racial slurs are all based on Asian or Arabic terms
-- terms describing whites, blacks, or lower-class Japanese
And I really don't remember what I did in _Denner's Wreck_, which is
set so far in the future that the whole question is pretty
meaningless.
So if there is still a problem in _written_ SF -- which I couldn't
really say one way or the other -- I don't feel I'm contributing to
it, and I'm satisfied with that.
--
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 7/24/99
Dan Goodman
juliakicksass <anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
>depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5,
Lesson #1: This newsgroup is for discussion of _written_ speculative
fiction (which includes science fiction).
Lesson #2: The sf which appears on movie and tv screens is in some ways
_very_ unlike the printed stuff.
>In Bio of a Space Tyrant, ethnicity determines what planet
>you live on. Though a little more progressive with a
>latino lead character, still most of the characters we see
>are caucasian.
>What's up with that? Doesn't it seem more probable that in
>the future, Humans should look like a mix of many ethnic
>backgrounds and not predominately just one?
>
>What do you guys think of this?
I think there's a lot of sf you haven't read. That's not a sin or a
crime; but citing one of Piers Anthony's less well-known recent books
suggests your reading isn't a good sample. Go to http://www.locusmag.com,
and see what's appearing on their various sf best-seller lists. Read some
of it. You may still find it imbalanced; but probably not nearly as much.
Or, for a _large_ dose of something else, read Wingate's Chung Kuo series.
It starts out with China ruling humanity.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
R. Tang
>On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:38:00 -0800, juliakicksass
><anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>
>>I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
>>depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>>
>>In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5,
>
>disadvantage (from a 'diversity' standpoint) of being made in the
>white-majority Hollwood region. Were there more non-white actors, I'm
>quite certain that there would have been more non-white roles in, say,
>"Star Wars".
Not with the current bozos in charge of casting.
The non-white actors are already there; they just gotta get
used...
--
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
R. Tang
gme...@trinity.edu <gme...@trinity.edu> wrote:
>People write about what they know and what will sell.
>
>Demographics and marketing should explain the rest.
>
>It is hard for an American or European white person to
>write convincingly of another ethnic group.
If they don't do the homework, sure.
I can almost buy this in television....time pressure and all that.
But movies don;t have that excuse. And even in television....how about
hiring some ethnic writers on staff? And don't ghettoize them by
relegating them to "just" ethnic stories....let 'em handle all sorts of
stories, and the knowledge diffueses among the staff...
R. Tang
Jordan S. Bassior <jsba...@aol.com> wrote:
>Juliakickass said:
>>In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5, we see a
>>predominance of white humans and though there are some
>>token characters that are black, asian, or of other
>>cultures, it seems to me that there is better character
>>development for those characters that are aliens than those
>>that are ethnic.
>
>I think that this is more a matter of the ethnic breakdown of Hollywood actors
>than of prejudiced casting or writing.
From personal experience, I believe you're mistaken.
gme...@trinity.edu
complexity and will cost money.
That's all that counts for some.
Brenda
juliakicksass wrote:
> I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
> depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>
> In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5, we see a
> predominance of white humans and though there are some
> token characters that are black, asian, or of other
> cultures, it seems to me that there is better character
> development for those characters that are aliens than those
> that are ethnic.
>
Heh. I fixed this. The short story is in HOW TO SAVE THE WORLD, edited by
Charles Sheffield.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of HOW LIKE A GOD, from Tor Books
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Jordan S. Bassior
>It is hard for an American or European white person to
>write convincingly of another ethnic group.
<chuckle> Yeah, cause it's a <fill in the blank> thing, ya wouldn't understand.
Does this work both ways, in your opinion? Do blacks, hispanics, or orientals
have problems writing convincingly about American or European white people?
>On the other hand,
>an African-American comic line (Milestone) wasn't a success.
Because the guy who started it was a raving racist paranoid, and he wrote it
from a raving racis paranoid viewpoint. I have a friend who knew the guy when
he worked back at Marvel.
Jonathan W Hendry
> On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:38:00 -0800, juliakicksass
> >I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
> >depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
> >
> >In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5,
> ...all of which are television shows or movies, which have the notable
> disadvantage (from a 'diversity' standpoint) of being made in the
> white-majority Hollwood region. Were there more non-white actors, I'm
> quite certain that there would have been more non-white roles in, say,
> "Star Wars".
A large part of it is probably that the marketers have the show aimed at
a white audience.
Rick Keir
<erky...@netcom.com> wrote:
> TV SF shows almost
> always depict the same ethnic mix as current American culture. It would be
> unmarketable otherwise. The Average Television Watcher couldn't get past
> the superficial strangeness of an unfamiliar color balance. I don't mean
> he would refuse to watch the show -- but I *do* think he couldn't watch
> the show *as being about anything other than race*. It would get in the
> way of the story, unless every single episode *was* about race.
I think this is unnecessarily harsh. By your reasoning, the Average
Television Watcher should have been unable to watch the original
Star Trek without demanding that every episode be about race,
because it was so full of "the superficial strangeness of an
unfamiliar color balance" for its time.
In practice, I think there's a good track record for people
being willing to watch the unfamiliar when they are offered
the opportunity to do so. "Cosby" certainly had a large
white component to its audience, and it was never a show
where every single episode was about race.
Now, if you wanted to say rude things about the various
people in LA and New York who sells shows, advertising, etc.,
and THEIR inability to deal with color, I'd be in full
agreement with you.
R. Tang
gme...@trinity.edu <gme...@trinity.edu> wrote:
>Reasonable point, Mr. Tang except that it adds
>complexity and will cost money.
What? Hiring ethnic writers and actors and letting them be people?
Don't think so.....
>
>That's all that counts for some.
Yeah, but I don't think it DOES cost money....
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
>GMeyer said:
>
>>On the other hand,
>>an African-American comic line (Milestone) wasn't a success.
>
>Because the guy who started it was a raving racist paranoid, and he wrote it
>from a raving racis paranoid viewpoint. I have a friend who knew the guy when
>he worked back at Marvel.
Huh?
I think you may be thinking of one of the other companies, not
Milestone. In fact, both of you may be, since Milestone was
black-owned but was by no means entirely "African-American" in either
employment or its characters. I believe they usually had more
Korean-Americans than African-Americans on their payroll.
There were several writers at Milestone, of various colors and
backgrounds. None of their comics were "raving racist paranoid," or
even really came close.
The notion that they _were_ a bunch of black racists apparently helped
kill the company, which is a shame, because _Static_ and _Icon_ were
really good comics, and _Blood Syndicate_ definitely had its moments.
I have friends who were major _Xombi_ fans (Asian-American hero there,
I believe), but I never tried that one.
When you talk about a raving racist paranoid who worked at Marvel, are
you thinking of Michael somebody? (I've gone blank on his last name.)
Because if I remember correctly, he was a co-founder of Milestone, but
got kicked out by the others because besides being a "raving racist
paranoid" he was incompetent at his job. He never wrote any of the
comics; he did write press releases, unfortunately.
Or were you maybe thinking of some other company entirely, such as,
say, ANIA?
R. Tang
>>an African-American comic line (Milestone) wasn't a success.
>
>Because the guy who started it was a raving racist paranoid, and he wrote it
>from a raving racis paranoid viewpoint. I have a friend who knew the guy when
>he worked back at Marvel.
Ever READ the fershinlugger things?
Ever MET Dwayne McDuffie?
I think not on both counts.
Sara
>Maybe Bladerunner was the most honest in portraying a
>heavily congested community with lots of asian faces on it
>(well china is like 1/10th the world's population).
Try 1/4 to 1/3 =)
>What's up with that? Doesn't it seem more probable that in
>the future, Humans should look like a mix of many ethnic
>backgrounds and not predominately just one?
>
>What do you guys think of this?
The reason? In movies/shows/etc., there's a heavy bias towards the ethnic
mix of one's nationality. Notice, for instance, that British program's
spacecrews have the
token Asian (maybe. Definetly in doubt.)
token American (no more than two)
token Indian
token Other (unoften)
And everyone else is from the U.K.
Anime Example: All the aliens look, act, and are culturally nearly identical
to traditional Japanese. Except for Amazing Jumping Capabilities,
Neon-Colored Hair, and Weird Eyes.
Part of this is simply presenting the target viewer with the faces and color
mixes they tend to expect. A big part, though is also simple cost. It's
easier in America to higher good/cheap American actors, than to higher
good/cheap Chinese actors who speak English. It's the pool of acting talent
producers and directers draw from.
Sara
R. Tang wrote in message <7niddi$d7q$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>...
>><anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
>>>depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>>>
>>>In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5,
>>
>>...all of which are television shows or movies, which have the notable
>>disadvantage (from a 'diversity' standpoint) of being made in the
>>white-majority Hollwood region. Were there more non-white actors, I'm
>>quite certain that there would have been more non-white roles in, say,
>>"Star Wars".
>
>
> The non-white actors are already there; they just gotta get
>used...
>--
But are they talented? Are they right for the role? And, most importantly,
are they well-known enough to get invited for the role?
R. Tang
Sara <srsf...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>Part of this is simply presenting the target viewer with the faces and color
>mixes they tend to expect. A big part, though is also simple cost. It's
>easier in America to higher good/cheap American actors, than to higher
>good/cheap Chinese actors who speak English. It's the pool of acting talent
>producers and directers draw from.
THUD. THUD. THUD. THUD.
My head SURE IS SORE from banging it against the wall.
Rick Keir
> The reason? In movies/shows/etc., there's a heavy bias towards the ethnic
> mix of one's nationality.
if this were so, we'd have black, hispanic and asian actors
all over the screen. The United States that is depicted
on prime time shows is almost entirely white; the US
that watches those shows is not. (You are posting from
a US educational site so I'm making the assumption that
your nationality is American).
Dan Goodman
Jonathan W Hendry <jhe...@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Quoth Otto on Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:09:40 GMT in <379fb20a...@news.erols.com>:
>> <anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>
>> >I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
>> >depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>> >
>> >In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5,
>
>> ...all of which are television shows or movies, which have the notable
>> disadvantage (from a 'diversity' standpoint) of being made in the
>> white-majority Hollwood region. Were there more non-white actors, I'm
>> quite certain that there would have been more non-white roles in, say,
>> "Star Wars".
>
>a white audience.
Hey, doesn't this belong in rec.arts.sf.tv and/or rec.arts.sf.movies?
R. Tang
Sara <srsf...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>R. Tang wrote in message <7niddi$d7q$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>...
>>In article <379fb20a...@news.erols.com>, Otto <otto...@the.couch>
>wrote:
>>><anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
>>>>depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>>>>
>>>>In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5,
>>>
>>>...all of which are television shows or movies, which have the notable
>>>disadvantage (from a 'diversity' standpoint) of being made in the
>>>white-majority Hollwood region. Were there more non-white actors, I'm
>>>quite certain that there would have been more non-white roles in, say,
>>>"Star Wars".
>>
>>
>> The non-white actors are already there; they just gotta get
>>used...
>
Yes.
>Are they right for the role?
Well, if you get over the idea that the only roles Asians can play
are Chinatown gang member or aggreived Asian parents, that's not a
problem. And don't think that this ain't happening today; it's not as
common as it once was, but I still get remarks like "How come you;re
auditioning for this role? This isn't an Oriental role."
>And, most importantly,
>are they well-known enough to get invited for the role?
If actors aren't even allowed to audition because the role doesn't
call for [fill in the blank ethnicity] how are they going to get
"well-known" enough?
R. Tang
Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
>On 26 Jul 1999 20:39:30 GMT, jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior)
>wrote:
>
>>GMeyer said:
>>
>>>an African-American comic line (Milestone) wasn't a success.
>>
>>Because the guy who started it was a raving racist paranoid, and he wrote it
>>from a raving racis paranoid viewpoint. I have a friend who knew the guy when
>>he worked back at Marvel.
>
>
>I think you may be thinking of one of the other companies, not
>Milestone. In fact, both of you may be, since Milestone was
>black-owned but was by no means entirely "African-American" in either
>employment or its characters. I believe they usually had more
>Korean-Americans than African-Americans on their payroll.
>
>There were several writers at Milestone, of various colors and
>backgrounds. None of their comics were "raving racist paranoid," or
>even really came close.
>
>The notion that they _were_ a bunch of black racists apparently helped
>kill the company,
And whose fault is this? I think a lot of folks were prejudging
the books without looking at them. Certainly, ICON was a better written
title than any of the flagship titles at Marvel or DC are now or then...
>I have friends who were major _Xombi_ fans (Asian-American hero there,
>I believe), but I never tried that one.
Certainly, this was the most SF oriented. Seriously weird stuff,
but I loved it (and it was certainly not stereotypical) (and written by a
white guy, too)....
Ian
>I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
>depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>
>In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5, we see a
>predominance of white humans and though there are some
>token characters that are black, asian, or of other
>cultures, it seems to me that there is better character
>development for those characters that are aliens than those
>that are ethnic.
First off, it is trivial to note that these shows are made in the United
States. They have to deal with the audience of the United States, and they
have to hire actors from the United States (where the great majority of
actors are white).
Second off, it is trivial to note that in the world of Star Trek, ethnicity
is apparently no longer an extremely differentiating fact of human life,
but there are still extensive differences between humans and aliens.
>Maybe Bladerunner was the most hones in portraying a
>heavily congested community with lots of asian faces on it
>(well china is like 1/10th the world's population).
China has 1/5 of the world's population.
Bruce Lin
> Anime Example: All the aliens look, act, and are culturally nearly identical
> to traditional Japanese. Except for Amazing Jumping Capabilities,
> Neon-Colored Hair, and Weird Eyes.
J.C. Herz wrote something about this in her book _Joystick Nation_ (an
excellent nonfiction work about arcade games, by the way). Characters like
Ken and Ryu in _Street Fighter_, who to me look awfully Caucasian in
appearance, are actually supposed to be Japanese. Herz writes that when
anime artists want to caricaturize other Asian races, they use the same
tropes as Western stereotypists: small eyes, buck teeth, etc. I think this
says something about how people perceive themselves and how they perceive
the Other.
Bruce
"The sky was the perfect untroubled blue of a television screen, tuned to
a dead channel." --Neil Gaiman, _Neverwhere_
Sea Wasp
>
> Sara <srsf...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> > Anime Example: All the aliens look, act, and are culturally nearly identical
> > to traditional Japanese. Except for Amazing Jumping Capabilities,
> > Neon-Colored Hair, and Weird Eyes.
>
> J.C. Herz wrote something about this in her book _Joystick Nation_ (an
> excellent nonfiction work about arcade games, by the way). Characters like
> Ken and Ryu in _Street Fighter_, who to me look awfully Caucasian in
> appearance, are actually supposed to be Japanese.
This derives from the fact that Osamu Tezuka, the man who started
anime, was inspired mostly by Walt Disney. Thus the big round eyes and
Caucasian features became the norm.
It's also a matter of differences being enlarged. Ken, however, isn't
supposed to be Japanese. He's American -- his name is Ken Masters. Ryu
is Japanese, though. The funny hair colors are exaggerations; black hair
like that of the Japanese often has slight highlights of purple,
greenish, reddish, or gold... so in anime this translates to purple,
green, gold, or red hair.
> "The sky was the perfect untroubled blue of a television screen, tuned to
> a dead channel." --Neil Gaiman, _Neverwhere_
Depends on the TV. Mine goes bright green. Of course, in the old days
they were a flickering shade of gray.
--
Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html
/^\
;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at
http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html
Brenda
Bruce Lin wrote:
> Sara <srsf...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> > Anime Example: All the aliens look, act, and are culturally nearly identical
> > to traditional Japanese. Except for Amazing Jumping Capabilities,
> > Neon-Colored Hair, and Weird Eyes.
>
> J.C. Herz wrote something about this in her book _Joystick Nation_ (an
> excellent nonfiction work about arcade games, by the way). Characters like
> Ken and Ryu in _Street Fighter_, who to me look awfully Caucasian in
> appearance, are actually supposed to be Japanese. Herz writes that when
> anime artists want to caricaturize other Asian races, they use the same
> tropes as Western stereotypists: small eyes, buck teeth, etc. I think this
> says something about how people perceive themselves and how they perceive
> the Other.
>
Could be. When my mother came to the US from China in the 1940s, she complained
that all white people looked alike to her.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
McCutchen) wrote:
>On 26 Jul 1999 22:26:53 GMT, gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
>wrote:
>
>>>The notion that they _were_ a bunch of black racists apparently helped
>>>kill the company,
>>
>> And whose fault is this? I think a lot of folks were prejudging
>>the books without looking at them. Certainly, ICON was a better written
>>title than any of the flagship titles at Marvel or DC are now or then...
>
>Well, according to LWE, the one fellow who was, indeed, a raving
>racist paranoid wrote press releases. Anybody who read one of those
>press releases might reasonably infer raving racial paranoia on the
>part of the organization as a whole.
Not really.
The guy I'm thinking of was not really a raving racist paranoid, just
the closest I could think of among the folks at Milestone. He did
tend to have an us.-vs.-them attitude sometimes, and to attribute the
shortage of successful non-white superheroes to racism, but usually
his press releases were written with a slant of, "Of course, _you're_
too cool to miss out on good stuff that way!"
You'd really need to be pretty out of touch with reality to consider
them raving racist paranoia.
On the other hand, they did emphasize the non-white make-up of the
company, which did indeed cause some people to label Milestone as
comics by blacks and for blacks. Which wasn't accurate.
Dwayne McDuffie (who pretty much ran Milestone) has publicly regretted
some of those early press releases. In hindsight, it's easy to say
they should have emphasized inclusion more, should have stuck to terms
like "multi-ethnic" rather than even mentioning blacks -- but there
wasn't much experience to draw on in '92, and they got it wrong.
Which is REALLY a shame.
Samuel Paik
> >Maybe Bladerunner was the most honest in portraying a
> >heavily congested community with lots of asian faces on it
> >(well china is like 1/10th the world's population).
>
China is a bit over a billion, the world population is 6 billion.
Try 1/5 to 1/6
Sam
--
Samuel S. Paik | http://www.webnexus.com/users/paik/
3D and multimedia, architecture and implementation
Solyent Green is kitniyot!
juliakicksass
wasn't it based out of south america? not the phillipines
if i recall correctly. some one the details here?
anyway,
as a side note,
i did meet gareth chang once
(actor - plays ensign harry kim on star trek)
he said that the only reason he got the job was
because captain janeway was cast as a woman instead of a
man -- so they could have a token asian on the crew --
otherwise his character would have been replaced with a
woman to make the pc quotient.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
>Sara wrote:
>> >Maybe Bladerunner was the most honest in portraying a
>> >heavily congested community with lots of asian faces on it
>> >(well china is like 1/10th the world's population).
>>
>> Try 1/4 to 1/3 =)
>
>China is a bit over a billion...
1.24 billion, latest estimate.
> the world population is 6 billion.
>Try 1/5 to 1/6
1/5.
Otto
wrote:
>In article <7nilk5$j0g$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>, "Sara"
><srsf...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>> The reason? In movies/shows/etc., there's a heavy bias towards the ethnic
>> mix of one's nationality.
>
>if this were so, we'd have black, hispanic and asian actors
>all over the screen. The United States that is depicted
>on prime time shows is almost entirely white;
Guess what? In a lot of places, THE UNITED STATES *IS* ENTIRELY
WHITE. The US is not an even blend of "65 percent white, 20 percent
black, etc. etc." everywhere in the country. There's a population of
American Indians in the country, but you don't see many wigwams in
downtown Detroit. (to use a totally inaccurate, inappropriate, and
insensitive racial stereotype.)
Commodore Otto
Christina
>
>On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:44:16 -0500, ke...@doit.wisc.edu (Rick Keir)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <7nilk5$j0g$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>, "Sara"
>><srsf...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> The reason? In movies/shows/etc., there's a heavy bias towards the ethnic
>>> mix of one's nationality.
>>
>>if this were so, we'd have black, hispanic and asian actors
>>all over the screen. The United States that is depicted
>>on prime time shows is almost entirely white;
>
>Guess what? In a lot of places, THE UNITED STATES *IS* ENTIRELY
>WHITE. The US is not an even blend of "65 percent white, 20 percent
>black, etc. etc." everywhere in the country.
Yes, but where are most studios and industry people based? NY and LA. What
are the 3 most common American city settings for a movie or TV show? NY, LA
and SF. None of those 3 cities can be considered even close to entirely white.
I don't know the specific stats for NY and LA, but SF is just 49% white.
You might have a point if Paramount was based in a small Midwest town and
shooting all its movies there. But to live in LA and shoot and set movies
there and cast all-white casts really speaks of an amazing disconnect.
Pete McCutchen
<gme...@trinity.edu> wrote:
>People write about what they know and what will sell.
>
>Demographics and marketing should explain the rest.
>
>It is hard for an American or European white person to
>write convincingly of another ethnic group.
Ah. That explains why there is no sf about aliens.
Pete McCutchen
<anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
>depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>
>In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5, we see a
>predominance of white humans and though there are some
>token characters that are black, asian, or of other
On the off chance that you're not a troll, I'd point out that Captain
Sisco on DS9 was more than a "token" character; he was the star of the
show. And, for that matter, Ensign Kim on _Voyager_, while not
high-ranking, is nonetheless a major character.
>cultures, it seems to me that there is better character
>development for those characters that are aliens than those
>that are ethnic.
>
>In Bio of a Space Tyrant, ethnicity determines what planet
>you live on. Though a little more progressive with a
>latino lead character, still most of the characters we see
>are caucasian.
Well, in the Honor Harrington books, the lead character's mother is
Asian, and the Manticoran royal house is black.
For that matter, there are any number of stories where the race of the
characters is simply not relevant. You can visualize such characters
as being any color you want. Why assume they're white?
>
>Maybe Bladerunner was the most hones in portraying a
>heavily congested community with lots of asian faces on it
>(well china is like 1/10th the world's population).
>
>What's up with that? Doesn't it seem more probable that in
>the future, Humans should look like a mix of many ethnic
>backgrounds and not predominately just one?
>
It's quite possible that interbreeding will eliminate current racial
distinctions.
Dan Goodman
>
>Bruce Lin wrote:
>
>> Sara <srsf...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>> > Anime Example: All the aliens look, act, and are culturally nearly identical
>> > to traditional Japanese. Except for Amazing Jumping Capabilities,
>> > Neon-Colored Hair, and Weird Eyes.
>>
>> J.C. Herz wrote something about this in her book _Joystick Nation_ (an
>> excellent nonfiction work about arcade games, by the way). Characters like
>> Ken and Ryu in _Street Fighter_, who to me look awfully Caucasian in
>> appearance, are actually supposed to be Japanese. Herz writes that when
>> anime artists want to caricaturize other Asian races, they use the same
>> tropes as Western stereotypists: small eyes, buck teeth, etc. I think this
>> says something about how people perceive themselves and how they perceive
>> the Other.
>>
>
>Could be. When my mother came to the US from China in the 1940s, she complained
>that all white people looked alike to her.
A while back, I read an article by an American who had gone to China
because he was interested in martial arts. The people running a
convention/conference he attended told him "We're housing you with other
foreigners, where you'll be comfortable."
They put him with the North Koreans.
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>>The notion that they _were_ a bunch of black racists apparently helped
>>kill the company,
>
> And whose fault is this? I think a lot of folks were prejudging
>the books without looking at them. Certainly, ICON was a better written
>title than any of the flagship titles at Marvel or DC are now or then...
Well, according to LWE, the one fellow who was, indeed, a raving
racist paranoid wrote press releases. Anybody who read one of those
press releases might reasonably infer raving racial paranoia on the
part of the organization as a whole.
>
>>I have friends who were major _Xombi_ fans (Asian-American hero there,
>>I believe), but I never tried that one.
>
> Certainly, this was the most SF oriented. Seriously weird stuff,
>but I loved it (and it was certainly not stereotypical) (and written by a
>white guy, too)....
How daring.
Dan Goodman
Of course, first you need to eliminate the Midwestern small towns which
are near Indian reservations; the ones which have migrant workers coming
through and sometimes settling down; ones in which people consider it
their Christian duty to help refugees; ones near colleges with sports
teams....
But to live in LA and shoot and set movies
>there and cast all-white casts really speaks of an amazing disconnect.
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>
>> Though a little more progressive with a
>>latino lead character
>
>ROFL!!! You can use the word "progressive" in this sentence with a straight
>face? What's more "progressive" about a Hispanic lead character as opposed to
>(say) an Italian or Russian one?
You know what would be really progressive? A book with a _Phillipino_
lead character. Let's see, do I have any such books for Julie. . . .
Let me look around; I'll get back to you on that.
Ian
No. While I don't agree with the original poster, your reasoning is
incorrect. There aren't any aliens around for people to use as a base of
comparison and say "hey, those Zorgons are such a stereotype, in actual
Zorgon culture they really..."
Bruce Lin
arcade games. And I maybe should emphasize that my point was related to
the fact that the characters in _Street Fighter_ are drawn by Japanese
artists.
Bruce
Bruce Lin <bruc...@mesa.princeton.edu> wrote:
> J.C. Herz wrote something about this in her book _Joystick Nation_ (an
> excellent nonfiction work about arcade games, by the way). Characters like
> Ken and Ryu in _Street Fighter_, who to me look awfully Caucasian in
> appearance, are actually supposed to be Japanese. Herz writes that when
> anime artists want to caricaturize other Asian races, they use the same
> tropes as Western stereotypists: small eyes, buck teeth, etc. I think this
> says something about how people perceive themselves and how they perceive
> the Other.
>
> Bruce
Yon Lew
> I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
> depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
> In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5, we see a
> predominance of white humans and though there are some
> token characters that are black, asian, or of other
> cultures, it seems to me that there is better character
> development for those characters that are aliens than those
> that are ethnic.
Head over to China or Japan and, surprise, most of the faces on tv are
Chinese or Japanese. Logistically, it's probably just tough to find
foreign actors who can speak the language. Not that there's probably any
great demand for it, even in the sf shows.
MarkReiche
>In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5, we see a
>predominance of white humans and though there are some
>token characters that are black, asian, or of other
>cultures, it seems to me that there is better character
>development for those characters that are aliens than those
>that are ethnic.
>
I think it is insulting to call the doctor in Babylon 5 a token character.
Whether he was 'black' enough for you, I couldn't say, but I do know that he
had certain educational and experience requirements to get to his position and
that coming from a military family would have also erased some that ethnicity.
Also, TV and movies do not SF make. The Ruling family of the Star Kingdom of
Manticore in David Weber's Honor Harrington books range from chocolate brown to
a shade less than space black. The head of the Republic of Nantucket's
military in S.M. Stirling's time travel novels is a black woman from South
Carolina who was the captain of the Coast Guard sail-driven training vessel,
the Eagle.
Oh, like it or not, blacks make up no more than 10-12% of the American public
and less of Western civilization, which along with certain Asian cultures are
going to be the best candidates for setting up space colonies and space
investment.
After all, most of the blacks I've known, including the niece of a U.S.
Representative thought the space program was taking up 50% of the budget and
should be eliminated entirely.
As far as I can tell, a great many blacks are self selecting themselves out of
science fiction stories by not being part of the audience.
Dan Goodman
Yon Lew <le...@flatland.dimensional.com> wrote:
>juliakicksass <anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>> I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
>> depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>
>> predominance of white humans and though there are some
>> token characters that are black, asian, or of other
>> cultures, it seems to me that there is better character
>> development for those characters that are aliens than those
>> that are ethnic.
>
>Chinese or Japanese. Logistically, it's probably just tough to find
>foreign actors who can speak the language. Not that there's probably any
>great demand for it, even in the sf shows.
1) The US has a large black population _most of whom have English as their
native language_.
2) The US has a large Asian population _of whom many were born in the US,
and grew up with English as a native language_.
There are many Black, Asian, and Hispanic actors in the US _who are not
foreign_.
Douglas Muir
> lead character. Let's see, do I have any such books for Julie. . . .
>
> Let me look around; I'll get back to you on that.
Filipino. And it's been done; _Starship Troopers_ of course.
Doug M.
Gareth Wilson
MarkReiche wrote:
>
> After all, most of the blacks I've known, including the niece of a U.S.
> Representative thought the space program was taking up 50% of the budget and
> should be eliminated entirely.
Oh, we wish...
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gareth Wilson
Christchurch
New Zealand
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matt Ruff / Lisa Gold
>
> I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
> depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>
> In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5, we see a
> predominance of white humans and though there are some
> token characters that are black, asian, or of other
> cultures, it seems to me that there is better character
> development for those characters that are aliens than those
> that are ethnic.
The aliens *are* the ethnic characters in a lot of SF.
-- M. Ruff
Matt Ruff / Lisa Gold
>
> On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:11:06 -0500, "gme...@trinity.edu"
> <gme...@trinity.edu> wrote:
>
>> It is hard for an American or European white person to
>> write convincingly of another ethnic group.
>
> Ah. That explains why there is no sf about aliens.
Well, most SF about aliens is really SF about foreigners.
-- M. Ruff
Matt Ruff / Lisa Gold
>
> GMeyer said:
>
>> It is hard for an American or European white person to
>> write convincingly of another ethnic group.
>
> understand. Does this work both ways, in your opinion? Do blacks,
> hispanics, or orientals have problems writing convincingly about
> American or European white people?
Did you hear about the white serial killers picketing "Summer of Sam"
because they didn't think Spike Lee could do them justice?
-- M. Ruff
Matt Ruff / Lisa Gold
>
> Anime Example: All the aliens look, act, and are culturally nearly
> identical to traditional Japanese.
Actually, in all of the anime I've seen, the characters look
surprisingly Caucasian. What's up with that?
-- M. Ruff
Matt Ruff / Lisa Gold
>
> After all, most of the blacks I've known, including the niece of a
> U.S. Representative thought the space program was taking up 50% of
> the budget and should be eliminated entirely.
So that explains it: the dearth of black characters in SF is
*punishment* for black folks' failure to support NASA.
-- M. Ruff
Sea Wasp
>
> On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:43:06 -0400, Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net>
> wrote:
>
> > It's also a matter of differences being enlarged. Ken, however, isn't
> >supposed to be Japanese. He's American -- his name is Ken Masters.
>
> It wasn't, though, waaay back when the game was first designed. (At
> least, I've heard this story. Maybe it's just a meme; can anyone
> confirm it?)
>
> He used to be just "Ken". He turned into "Ken Masters" when they were
> making the Street Fighter "GI-Joe" figures; Hasbro, owner of the
> GI-Joe property, already _had_ a "Ken" doll (from their Barbie line)
> and didn't want to produce _another_ toy with the same name. Thus,
> "Ken" became "Ken Masters".
Nope. The Japanese called him "Ken Masters" -- see the anime they
produced, where he's definitely an American. That wasn't introduced in
translation, that's what he was called in the original sound version. I
believe, if you get a hold of the original Japanese instructions for the
game, you'll also find him called "Ken Masters" and given an American
background even there.
--
Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html
/^\
;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at
http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html
Sea Wasp
As I mentioned, there's a couple factors:
1) Osamu Tezuka, the founder of anime, was mostly inspired by Walt
Disney. Thus the big cute eyes and so on.
2) The Japanese use the eyes to show emotion and thoughts even more
than we do; larger, rounder eyes make better "windows to the soul", so
to speak.
3) Small differences that we Gaijin don't notice are very apparent to
them (just as relatively small differences they don't notice are very
apparent to us), and they exaggerate these differences for effect and to
individualize the characters even more.
Jeremy DuCharme
>
> On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:44:16 -0500, ke...@doit.wisc.edu (Rick Keir)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <7nilk5$j0g$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>, "Sara"
> ><srsf...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> The reason? In movies/shows/etc., there's a heavy bias towards the ethnic
> >> mix of one's nationality.
> >
> >if this were so, we'd have black, hispanic and asian actors
> >all over the screen. The United States that is depicted
> >on prime time shows is almost entirely white;
>
> Guess what? In a lot of places, THE UNITED STATES *IS* ENTIRELY
> WHITE. The US is not an even blend of "65 percent white, 20 percent
> American Indians in the country, but you don't see many wigwams in
> downtown Detroit. (to use a totally inaccurate, inappropriate, and
> insensitive racial stereotype.)
>
No but in Detroit you do have a significant Arab-American presence, and
we do have Indian reservations in the upper pennisula and maybe a few
in the lower pennisula.
--
"You've made a fine mess Captain Sheridan. Half the generals in Earth
Force want to kiss you on the cheek and give you the Medal of Honor.
The other half want to have you taken out and shot. As a politician
you learn to compromise so, I should give you the Medal of Honor, then
have you shot."
Babylon 5 "Rising Star"
===========================================================================
B-5 is alive on TNT!!!! E-mail to: jeremyd...@sprintmail.com
Jordan S. Bassior
>Did you hear about the white serial killers picketing "Summer of Sam"
>because they didn't think Spike Lee could do them justice?
Well, that was obviously a joke, but I don't get your point. Are you trying to
argue that yes, in fact, whites can't understand non-whites but non-whites can
understand whites, or did you have some other point in mind?
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Jordan S. Bassior
>I think it is insulting to call the doctor in Babylon 5 a token character.
>
>Whether he was 'black' enough for you, I couldn't say, but I do know that he
>had certain educational and experience requirements to get to his position and
>that coming from a military family would have also erased some that ethnicity.
Plus, the idea that in order to be "black" one has to possess a series of
cultural traits associated with irresponsibility and poverty is self-defeating.
If swallowed, then all black characters would either be (1) "too white", (2)
unconvincing (can you imagine a judge or corporate head acting like the
characters on "Good Times"), or (3) lower-class scumbags (which is the
stereotype being railed against in the first place).
>Also, TV and movies do not SF make. The Ruling family of the Star Kingdom of
>Manticore in David Weber's Honor Harrington books range from chocolate brown
>to a shade less than space black. The head of the Republic of Nantucket's
>military in S.M. Stirling's time travel novels is a black woman from South
>Carolina who was the captain of the Coast Guard sail-driven training vessel,
>the Eagle.
Yep. Though, amusingly, Weber and Stirling are probably not very popular among
leftist SF fans :)
>Oh, like it or not, blacks make up no more than 10-12% of the American public
>and less of Western civilization, which along with certain Asian cultures are
>going to be the best candidates for setting up space colonies and space
>investment.
>
Uh-huh.
>After all, most of the blacks I've known, including the niece of a U.S.
>Representative thought the space program was taking up 50% of the budget and
>should be eliminated entirely.
I'm surprised by that. Is this kind of misconception that prevalent?
>As far as I can tell, a great many blacks are self selecting themselves out
>of science fiction stories by not being part of the audience.
Qutie possibly. The black SF fans I've known have told me that the level of
hostility in their communities to science fiction, and to intellectualism in
general, is very large. Of course, the two I knew best both grew up in
LOWER-class communities, it's probably different among middle-class blacks.
Andrew Plotkin
> On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:11:06 -0500, "gme...@trinity.edu"
> <gme...@trinity.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>>Demographics and marketing should explain the rest.
>>
>>write convincingly of another ethnic group.
>
People frequently argue that there *isn't*.
I don't go that far, but I'd say it's rare. "These are real aliens, not
just us-in-rubber-suits" is an uncommon and high form of praise around
here; that argues that it *is* a hard task.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Dr Nuncheon
R. Tang <gwan...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>The notion that they _were_ a bunch of black racists apparently helped
>>kill the company,
>
> And whose fault is this? I think a lot of folks were prejudging
>the books without looking at them. Certainly, ICON was a better written
>title than any of the flagship titles at Marvel or DC are now or then...
I'll believe that. I personally liked Static a lot - it went back to the
old Spider-man idea of a wisecracking hero who actually *thinks* to defeat
his enemies, instead of just shooting them. (Of course the superpowered
street gang Blood Syndicate was an interesting idea as well...)
On the other hand, I wonder if the writing for Icon, etc just didn't fit
with what most comic book readers wanted? Look at the kind of comics that
seem to be popular today: Big Guns, Big Breasts and Skimpy Outfits - pure
power-fantasy and escapism. Look at what Icon had to offer: a noble
Superman-type and a variety of very real-world problems like his
sidekick's teen pregnancy. If you're reading the comics as a kid, that
kind of stuff isn't going to be as interesting to you...if you're reading
them to escape, it's not going to be as interesting...so the market that's
left is the mature adult comic-book reader that's looking for something a
little more realistic. Sad to say, that's probably a fairly small market.
J
--
"Yeilds falsehood when preceded by its quotation" Jeff Johnston
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. jeffj @ io.com
Stephen Taylor
> I think there's a lot of sf you haven't read. That's not a sin or a
> crime; but citing one of Piers Anthony's less well-known recent books
> suggests your reading isn't a good sample. Go to http://www.locusmag.com,
> and see what's appearing on their various sf best-seller lists. Read some
> of it. You may still find it imbalanced; but probably not nearly as much.
>
> Or, for a _large_ dose of something else, read Wingate's Chung Kuo series.
> It starts out with China ruling humanity.
Also for SF where ethnicity amounts to more than a casual mention of
skin colour:
_China Mountain Zhang_ by Maureen McHugh
_Half the Day is Night_ by Maureen McHugh
_Brown Girl in the Ring_ by Nalo Hopkinson (though I haven't got around
to that one yet).
> Dan Goodman
Steve
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Taylor st...@afs.net.au
Applied Financial Services
Phone: +61 3 9670 0233 Fax: +61 3 9670 5018
Dr Nuncheon
Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>On 26 Jul 1999 19:43:19 GMT, jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior)
>wrote:
>
>>> Though a little more progressive with a
>>>latino lead character
>>
>>ROFL!!! You can use the word "progressive" in this sentence with a straight
>>face? What's more "progressive" about a Hispanic lead character as opposed to
>>(say) an Italian or Russian one?
>
>lead character. Let's see, do I have any such books for Julie. . . .
Juan Rico, from Starship Troopers, is (IIRC) half Filipino, half Hispanic.
(So who played him in the film? Some pretty-boy Caucasian 90210 reject.
*sigh*)
How about SF with an Inuit lead character? There's somethign that might
have gone unexplored...
Louann Miller
Jordan S. Bassior wrote in message
<19990727094806...@ng-cf1.aol.com>...
>Mark Reiche said:
>>Also, TV and movies do not SF make. The Ruling family of the Star Kingdom
of
>>Manticore in David Weber's Honor Harrington books range from chocolate
brown
>>to a shade less than space black. The head of the Republic of Nantucket's
>>military in S.M. Stirling's time travel novels is a black woman from South
>>Carolina who was the captain of the Coast Guard sail-driven training
vessel,
>>the Eagle.
>Yep. Though, amusingly, Weber and Stirling are probably not very popular
among
>leftist SF fans :)
The royal House of Winton (Weber's Manticore books) doesn't have many
cultural similarities to current black culture, but Capt. Marion (Sea of
Time) is a good example of a character who makes a story really richer, not
just in a token PC way, by having a particular ethnic background. She would
not be as interesting a character if she was a generic white person. I'd
also toss in (since this thread started with TV/movies) the heroine from
"Strange Days." That story would have been duller without the culture clash.
R. Tang
Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>On 26 Jul 1999 22:26:53 GMT, gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
>
>
>>>The notion that they _were_ a bunch of black racists apparently helped
>>>kill the company,
>>
>> And whose fault is this? I think a lot of folks were prejudging
>>the books without looking at them. Certainly, ICON was a better written
>>title than any of the flagship titles at Marvel or DC are now or then...
>
>racist paranoid wrote press releases. Anybody who read one of those
>press releases might reasonably infer raving racial paranoia on the
>part of the organization as a whole.
Huh. Didn't know that.
On the other hand...how much contact do readers (of comics or SF)
have with the press releases? Doesn't it get filtered? (And how raving
paranoid were the press releases?).
>>>I have friends who were major _Xombi_ fans (Asian-American hero there,
>>>I believe), but I never tried that one.
>>
>> Certainly, this was the most SF oriented. Seriously weird stuff,
>>but I loved it (and it was certainly not stereotypical) (and written by a
>>white guy, too)....
>
>How daring.
Heh. Given that somebody said that white writers couldn't write
believable ethnic characters....
--
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
Mark Evans Jeffcoat
: How about SF with an Inuit lead character? There's somethign that might
: have gone unexplored...
:
And maybe he could even be paired with a character who's half-black!
But we all know that that'll never happen, since science fiction
is clearly only by, for, and about white folk.
Mark Jeffcoat
Otto
question than an SF.written question.
On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:00:31 -0400, Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net>
wrote:
>Otto wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:43:06 -0400, Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > It's also a matter of differences being enlarged. Ken, however, isn't
>> >supposed to be Japanese. He's American -- his name is Ken Masters.
>>
>> It wasn't, though, waaay back when the game was first designed. (At
>> least, I've heard this story. Maybe it's just a meme; can anyone
>> confirm it?)
>>
>> He used to be just "Ken". He turned into "Ken Masters" when they were
>> making the Street Fighter "GI-Joe" figures; Hasbro, owner of the
>> GI-Joe property, already _had_ a "Ken" doll (from their Barbie line)
>> and didn't want to produce _another_ toy with the same name. Thus,
>> "Ken" became "Ken Masters".
>
> Nope. The Japanese called him "Ken Masters" -- see the anime they
>produced, where he's definitely an American.
The anime was produced after the game had been out for many years. In
fact, I believe that it came out around the "SF2 Turbo" era.
Actually...AGSF2 folks, who's right? _Was_ Ken really "Ken Masters"
in the original "Street Figher 2" game?
Commodore Otto
Bruce Lin
>> You know what would be really progressive? A book with a _Phillipino_
>> lead character. Let's see, do I have any such books for Julie. . . .
>>
>
> Filipino. And it's been done; _Starship Troopers_ of course.
hook, line, and sinker!
Bruce
Matt Austern
> >People write about what they know and what will sell.
> >
> >Demographics and marketing should explain the rest.
> >
> >It is hard for an American or European white person to
> >write convincingly of another ethnic group.
>
> Ah. That explains why there is no sf about aliens.
It does explain why there's so little *good* sf about aliens.
I actually agree with the original poster: writing convincingly about
a very different culture (a culture of the distant past, or the
distant future, or the foreign present) is hard. Not that it's the
only reason writing good science fiction is hard.
Mike Schilling
>
> Pete wrote:
> >
> > You know what would be really progressive? A book with a _Phillipino_
> > lead character. Let's see, do I have any such books for Julie. . . .
> >
> > Let me look around; I'll get back to you on that.
>
> Filipino. And it's been done; _Starship Troopers_ of course.
Prcisely Pete's point; he's just proven that RAH is "progressive".
juliakicksass
"Alien" or "Person from another country" in a racist manner
in some indian language. true?
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winte...@tictac.org
>
>How about SF with an Inuit lead character? There's somethign that might
>have gone unexplored...
Snow Crash.
David Navarro
>
> Douglas Muir <dougla...@yale.edu> wrote:
> >> You know what would be really progressive? A book with a _Phillipino_
> >> lead character. Let's see, do I have any such books for Julie. . . .
> >>
> >> Let me look around; I'll get back to you on that.
> >
> > Filipino. And it's been done; _Starship Troopers_ of course.
>
>
> Bruce
Also _Cryptonomicon_...
--
__________________________________________________
David Navarro http://www.alcaudon.com
__________________________________________________
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Craig Levin
juliakicksass <anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>I think I remember hearing that Ferengi actually meant
>"Alien" or "Person from another country" in a racist manner
>in some indian language. true?
Actually, Farang or Fereng means "Frank" (that is, a European
Christian) in Arabic. Not exactly an Indian language, although
there _are_ Moslems in India.
--
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~clevin/index.html
cle...@ripco.com
Craig Levin
Jordan S. Bassior
>The royal House of Winton (Weber's Manticore books) doesn't have many
>cultural similarities to current black culture
Yes. In fact it's more similar to 18th century Britain.
> but Capt. Marion (Sea of
>Time) is a good example of a character who makes a story really richer, not
>just in a token PC way, by having a particular ethnic background. She would
>not be as interesting a character if she was a generic white person.
Absolutely. Marion Alston is one of the strongest characters I've ever seen in
science fiction. And she's definitely ethnic, though of course rural-Southern
rather than urban-Northeastern.
Jordan S. Bassior
>I think I remember hearing that Ferengi actually meant
>"Alien" or "Person from another country" in a racist manner
>in some indian language. true?
>
Arabic. Means "Frank" (i.e. European). Comes from the Crusading era.
Jason Hatter
p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net proclaimed
<379d24df...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>:
>You know what would be really progressive? A book with a
>_Phillipino_ lead character. Let's see, do I have any such books
>for Julie. . . .
>
>Let me look around; I'll get back to you on that.
Probably already mentioned, but STARSHIP TROOPERS, by Heinlein has
just such a character...
--
Jason
http://www.concentric.net/~towonder/
Sailor Moon V at http://www.concentric.net/~towonder/fanfic.shtml
Sith Lords should learn to stay away from wells.
Jason Hatter
jeremyd...@sprintmail.com proclaimed
<379DB841...@sprintmail.com>:
>presence, and we do have Indian reservations in the upper
>pennisula and maybe a few in the lower pennisula.
Yes, there are a few down here as well.
Jinston
news:37a4e3c2...@news.erols.com...
From what I recall, those G.I. Joe dolls were made before the animes... But
then I wasn't into the anime back then. I think those G.I.Joes were made
after the home release of SF2:CE on Genesis and SF2:HF on SNES. I recall
that they had to add "Masters" because of Mattel from Wizard Magazine I
think.
>
> Commodore Otto
--
Jinston
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School of Veterinary Medicine
<Storyt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Sara wrote:
> >
> > Anime Example: All the aliens look, act, and are culturally nearly
> > identical to traditional Japanese.
>
> Actually, in all of the anime I've seen, the characters look
> surprisingly Caucasian. What's up with that?
It's not just limited to anime. It can be argued that
"the Japanese self-image" is considerably closer to
a Caucasian body type than the typical person of
European decent would guess. Examples of this can
be found in traditional Japanese art and especially
in Japanese war propaganda, where depictions of other
Asian races were considerably darker in skin color
and contained more "stereotypical Oriental features"
relative to the Japanese.
Thomas
Mark Evans Jeffcoat wrote:
> Dr Nuncheon (je...@fnord.io.com) wrote:
> : How about SF with an Inuit lead character? There's somethign that might
> : have gone unexplored...
> :
> And maybe he could even be paired with a character who's half-black!
>
And has a really self-referential name. And a pair of japanese swords!
mike stone
>juliakicksass
><anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I find it a little disturbing how often the future gets
>>depicted as being a very caucasian universe.
>>
>>In Star Trek, Star Wars, & even Babylon 5,
>..all of which are television shows or movies, which have the notable
>disadvantage (from a 'diversity' standpoint) of being made in the
>white-majority Hollwood region. Were there more non-white actors, I'm
>quite certain that there would have been more non-white roles in, say,
>"Star Wars".
>
>
As usual, TV/Film SF is 30 or 40 years behind the written kind.
I remember being a bit surprised as a teenager when I read Poul Anderson's
"Trader to the Stars" and found that the Spaceship captain was an Indian (a
brown one not a red one) I wasn't used to having non-white characters in
*written* sf then
Mike Stone - Peterborough England
Q: How do you tell the difference between a Mormon wedding and a Non-Mormon
wedding?
A: At the Mormon wedding, it's the bride's *mother* who is pregnant!
Sea Wasp
> How about SF with an Inuit lead character? There's somethign that might
> have gone unexplored...
Not THE main character, but a major character in Brian Daley's _Jinx on
a Terran Inheritance_ was Inuit-descended. That universe was a MAD blend
of just about everything.
--
Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html
/^\
;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at
http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html
Erich R. Schneider
> In article <9330973...@www.remarq.com>,
> juliakicksass <anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
> >I think I remember hearing that Ferengi actually meant
> >"Alien" or "Person from another country" in a racist manner
> >in some indian language. true?
>
> Actually, Farang or Fereng means "Frank" (that is, a European
> Christian) in Arabic. Not exactly an Indian language, although
> there _are_ Moslems in India.
"Farang" is used to refer to foreigners in Thai as well.
--
Erich Schneider er...@caltech.edu Caltech Information Technology Services
Daniel C Stillwaggon
Jordan S. Bassior wrote:
> <chuckle> Yeah, cause it's a <fill in the blank> thing, ya wouldn't
> understand. Does this work both ways, in your opinion? Do blacks,
> hispanics, or orientals have problems writing convincingly about
> American or European white people?
The only problem with this line of reasoning is that the media is full of
white done whites. There are plenty of sources to copy from. There are
precious few(comparatively) black done blacks, etc. Too many white done
minorities even...
Daniel
Daniel C Stillwaggon
Jordan S. Bassior <jsba...@aol.com> wrote:
>Qutie possibly. The black SF fans I've known have told me that the level of
>hostility in their communities to science fiction, and to intellectualism in
>general, is very large. Of course, the two I knew best both grew up in
>LOWER-class communities, it's probably different among middle-class blacks.
As opposed to the rowsing support for intellectualism among whites? Sorry,
but I believe that America has a prevalant mindset that the simple is
equal to the good and that intelectuals and the intelectual are more or less
trouble and somehow corrupt.
Just remember that a large percentage of people in this country chose to
identify with a retarded man as the symbol of this century...
Daniel
(stupid is as stupid does, as we see daily on Usenet... ;) )
Jordan S. Bassior
> It can be argued that
>"the Japanese self-image" is considerably closer to
>a Caucasian body type than the typical person of
>European decent would guess. Examples of this can
>be found in traditional Japanese art and especially
>in Japanese war propaganda, where depictions of other
>Asian races were considerably darker in skin color
>and contained more "stereotypical Oriental features"
>relative to the Japanese.
Partially because the (Oriental) Japanese interbred with the (Caucasian) Ainu,
though the Japanese hate to admit this. Note that the Japanese are among the
few Oriental subgroups with abundant facial and body hair.
Otto
wrote:
>Otto <otto...@the.couch> wrote in message
>news:37a4e3c2...@news.erols.com...
>> >> He used to be just "Ken". He turned into "Ken Masters" when they were
>> >> making the Street Fighter "GI-Joe" figures; Hasbro, owner of the
>> >> GI-Joe property, already _had_ a "Ken" doll (from their Barbie line)
>> >> and didn't want to produce _another_ toy with the same name. Thus,
>> >> "Ken" became "Ken Masters".
>> >
>> > Nope. The Japanese called him "Ken Masters" -- see the anime they
>> >produced, where he's definitely an American.
>>
>> The anime was produced after the game had been out for many years. In
>> fact, I believe that it came out around the "SF2 Turbo" era.
>>
>> Actually...AGSF2 folks, who's right? _Was_ Ken really "Ken Masters"
>> in the original "Street Figher 2" game?
>
>From what I recall, those G.I. Joe dolls were made before the animes... But
>then I wasn't into the anime back then. I think those G.I.Joes were made
>after the home release of SF2:CE on Genesis and SF2:HF on SNES. I recall
>that they had to add "Masters" because of Mattel from Wizard Magazine I
>think.
Coulda been Mattel. Who makes GI Joe? (And Barbie, too, presumably.)
Commodore Otto
juliakicksass
then, are usually attributed with characteristics that are
very similar to stereotypes of certain ethnic races
currently out there?
and how is it that sometiem sthe aliens have so much more
personality & opportunities offered to them than to the
ethnic characters (token or not) in many sci fi 's?
s...@grey.pseudo
>with what most comic book readers wanted? Look at the kind of comics that
>seem to be popular today: Big Guns, Big Breasts and Skimpy Outfits - pure
>power-fantasy and escapism.
Just like Sandman.
>J
>--
>"Yeilds falsehood when preceded by its quotation" Jeff Johnston
>yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. jeffj @ io.com
This is from Scientific American, isn't it?
Samuel Paik
> >China is a bit over a billion...
>
> 1.24 billion, latest estimate.
>
> > the world population is 6 billion.
> >Try 1/5 to 1/6
>
> 1/5.
Yep, just checked the CIA WFB. BTW, when I mentioned 6 billion
people worldwide, I was working of a memory of a message that
the 6 billionth person arrived sometime within the past two
months, but I'm not sure where to verify that.
Sam
--
Samuel S. Paik | http://www.webnexus.com/users/paik/
3D and multimedia, architecture and implementation
Solyent Green is kitniyos!
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> >China is a bit over a billion...
>>
>> 1.24 billion, latest estimate.
>>
>> > the world population is 6 billion.
>> >Try 1/5 to 1/6
>>
>> 1/5.
>
>Yep, just checked the CIA WFB. BTW, when I mentioned 6 billion
>people worldwide, I was working of a memory of a message that
>the 6 billionth person arrived sometime within the past two
>months, but I'm not sure where to verify that.
I've come across several estimates -- a counter at the Boston Museum
of Science was the one that got me looking -- and they all put the six
billionth person some time this year, but vary on exactly when. Most
put it in the past two months, as you say, but a few put it earlier or
later. The latest date I saw was October of this year.
--
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 7/24/99
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<Storyt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>MarkReiche wrote:
>>
>> I was also trying to point out that blacks don't make up that much
>> of that population of the world that has any chance of moving out
>> into space
>
>I don't think anyone alive today has a realistic chance of "moving out
>into space" -- that's a long ways down the road yet, if it ever happens
>at all.
There's a guy named Bigelow -- he owns the Budget Suites hotel chain,
if I remember the name correctly -- who's earmarked half a billion
dollars for building himself a "cruise ship" in lunar orbit.
He's aiming at fifteen to twenty years from now.
It strikes me as entirely possible that that cruise ship will have
lots of black crew members.
>Depends on your assumptions. I doubt NASA will ever again have the level
>of taxpayer support that it did during the days of Apollo; if people
>actually do colonize Mars, etc., it'll probably happen as a private
>venture. If that's true, then killing the government space program could
>actually help speed things along.
Yup. When I saw the feature article on Bigelow (I think it was in the
Washington Post business section a few days back) I felt like cheering
-- I think he's got a _much_ better chance of getting the job done
than NASA does these days.
Jordan S. Bassior
>Any followup ideas on why so many of the alien species
>then, are usually attributed with characteristics that are
>very similar to stereotypes of certain ethnic races
>currently out there?
Some of the ethnic stereotypes are of fairly basic dichotomies which would
apply to aliens as well (hardworking vs.lazy, aggressive vs. peaceful, etc.).
Also, some sf writers are less than imaginative and simply create "space Jews /
blacks / Japanese / whatever"
>and how is it that sometiem sthe aliens have so much more
>personality & opportunities offered to them than to the
>ethnic characters (token or not) in many sci fi 's?
??? I don't know where you get this from. In SF universes where there are alien
races, one of the assumptions usually is that the human ethnic differences
known today have become either trivial, or superseded by new ones.
Pete McCutchen
(Ian) wrote:
>>>
>>>It is hard for an American or European white person to
>>>write convincingly of another ethnic group.
>>
>>Ah. That explains why there is no sf about aliens.
>
>No. While I don't agree with the original poster, your reasoning is
>incorrect. There aren't any aliens around for people to use as a base of
>comparison and say "hey, those Zorgons are such a stereotype, in actual
>Zorgon culture they really..."
>
I wondered if anybody would notice that.
Pete McCutchen
<dougla...@yale.edu> wrote:
>> You know what would be really progressive? A book with a _Phillipino_
>> lead character. Let's see, do I have any such books for Julie. . . .
>>
>> Let me look around; I'll get back to you on that.
>
>Filipino.
Sorry. I never claimed that spelling was my strong suit.
> And it's been done; _Starship Troopers_ of course.
>
_Really_? I hadn't thought of that when I made the suggestion.
Also give her _Tunnel in the Sky_, since we all know that Rod Walker
is black.
>
>
>Doug M.
Pete McCutchen
<anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>Jonny Rico - also know as Juan Rico in the book...
>wasn't it based out of south america? not the phillipines
>if i recall correctly. some one the details here?
Nope. You apparently have the book/movie problem. In the book, his
home is not specified until the end, although there are a few clues.
We do know, however, that his home is _not_ Argentina, since his mom
was on a vacation there "far from home" when she was killed.
In the movie-by-the-same-name, he's from an Argentina that has, at
some point, apparently been conquered by Aryan supermen. I read an
interview with the screenwriter in which he appeared to suggest that
Rico was from BA in the book, but the screenwriter apparently was
unable to read.
>
>anyway,
>
>as a side note,
>i did meet gareth chang once
>(actor - plays ensign harry kim on star trek)
>he said that the only reason he got the job was
>because captain janeway was cast as a woman instead of a
>man -- so they could have a token asian on the crew --
>otherwise his character would have been replaced with a
>woman to make the pc quotient.
Well, it could have been an Asian woman.
In any case, I don't deny that Trek has PC quotients. I do deny that
all of Asian or black actors are in token roles, and I think that Kim
is a good example. As is Avery Brooks, who plays Cisco.
jeff wiel
: On 26 Jul 1999 19:43:19 GMT, jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior)
: wrote:
: >
: >> Though a little more progressive with a
: >>latino lead character
: >
: >ROFL!!! You can use the word "progressive" in this sentence with a straight
: >face? What's more "progressive" about a Hispanic lead character as opposed to
: >(say) an Italian or Russian one?
: You know what would be really progressive? A book with a _Phillipino_
: lead character. Let's see, do I have any such books for Julie. . . .
hmmmm... No, can't think of any. How about a book with an afro-asian
protagonist?
: Let me look around; I'll get back to you on that.
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>: You know what would be really progressive? A book with a _Phillipino_
>: lead character. Let's see, do I have any such books for Julie. . . .
>
>hmmmm... No, can't think of any. How about a book with an afro-asian
>protagonist?
I think you might be able to dig one up, if you look for really
_progressive_ authors.
MarkReiche
>> After all, most of the blacks I've known, including the niece of a U.S.
>> Representative thought the space program was taking up 50% of the budget
>and
>> should be eliminated entirely.
>
>Oh, we wish...
>
We'd have a Lunar AND Martian colony with that sort of money.<g>