Long SF
James Nicoll
The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
Witchbreed, yes.
Mote in God's Eye, maybe
Dune except I am not sure it really is long. It seemed long in the 1970s
but back then SF novels were quite short by modern standards. I think
it's actually only about 400 pages.
Eventually this will work around to my thesis that in almost all (note
the wiggle room) cases SF stories do not require more than 65K to 120K
to tell. Hmmm. Maybe 60K to 100K.
[Yes, I am using the non-inclusive meaning of SF]
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Silk
> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>
> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
> Witchbreed, yes.
>
> Mote in God's Eye, maybe
>
> Dune except I am not sure it really is long. It seemed long in the 1970s
> but back then SF novels were quite short by modern standards. I think
> it's actually only about 400 pages.
>
> Eventually this will work around to my thesis that in almost all (note
> the wiggle room) cases SF stories do not require more than 65K to 120K
> to tell. Hmmm. Maybe 60K to 100K.
>
> [Yes, I am using the non-inclusive meaning of SF]
> defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
So if it's long it must be fantasy
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>
> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
> Witchbreed, yes.
>
> Mote in God's Eye, maybe
>
> Dune except I am not sure it really is long. It seemed long in the 1970s
> but back then SF novels were quite short by modern standards. I think
> it's actually only about 400 pages.
>
> Eventually this will work around to my thesis that in almost all (note
> the wiggle room) cases SF stories do not require more than 65K to 120K
> to tell. Hmmm. Maybe 60K to 100K.
>
> [Yes, I am using the non-inclusive meaning of SF]
Vinge's Zones of Thought.
Snow Crash.
Even if I edited out everything I didn't like from Hamilton's Night's
Dawn, they'd STILL be longer than 100k, easily.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Dave Hansen
> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>
> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
> Witchbreed, yes.
Dahlgren, no. The others, I'm ashamed to admit, I haven't read.
>
> Mote in God's Eye, maybe
Mote, yes.
>
> Dune except I am not sure it really is long. It seemed long in the 1970s
> but back then SF novels were quite short by modern standards. I think
> it's actually only about 400 pages.
Downbelow Station, yes, if it's long enough. Cyteen, maybe.
>
> Eventually this will work around to my thesis that in almost all (note
> the wiggle room) cases SF stories do not require more than 65K to 120K
> to tell. Hmmm. Maybe 60K to 100K.
>
> [Yes, I am using the non-inclusive meaning of SF]
New Sun (ignoring Urth for the moment), Long Sun, yes. Short Sun,
maybe. If you count those as SF (which I mostly do, except maybe
Short Sun...).
Regards,
-=Dave
James Nicoll
Silk <giles...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On 3 June, 14:38, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>>
>> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
>> Witchbreed, yes.
>>
>> Mote in God's Eye, maybe
>>
>> Dune except I am not sure it really is long. It seemed long in the 1970s
>> but back then SF novels were quite short by modern standards. I think
>> it's actually only about 400 pages.
>>
>> Eventually this will work around to my thesis that in almost all (note
>> the wiggle room) cases SF stories do not require more than 65K to 120K
>> to tell. Hmmm. Maybe 60K to 100K.
>>
>> [Yes, I am using the non-inclusive meaning of SF]
>>
No.
Long SF books clearly *exist*. I am suggesting most existing long SF books
would have been better cut down to a much shorter length.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
James Nicoll
Dave Hansen <id...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 3, 8:38�am, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>>
>> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
>> Witchbreed, yes.
>
>Dahlgren, no. The others, I'm ashamed to admit, I haven't read.
DAHLGREN has sold over a million copies and gone through dozens of printings.
Since we know sell-through is the measure of quality literature, it's
successful.
Why is it Baen hasn't done a release of DAHLGREN? I've seen books by them
that seem as likely:
http://www.baen.com/author_catalog.asp?author=bnmalzberg
I think both THE SHEEP LOOK UP and STAND ON ZANZIBAR hold up well despite
their ages and zeerust. Be warned that while SOZ has a fairly happy arc
(one characters finds a rewarding job in Asia while the other is on hand
for some interesting anthropological discoveries in Africa) TSLU is perhaps
somewhat less than completely upbeat.
art...@yahoo.com
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> James Nicoll wrote:
> > What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>
> > The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
> > Witchbreed, yes.
>
> > Mote in God's Eye, maybe
>
> > Dune except I am not sure it really is long. It seemed long in the 1970s
> > but back then SF novels were quite short by modern standards. I think
> > it's actually only about 400 pages.
>
> > Eventually this will work around to my thesis that in almost all (note
> > the wiggle room) cases SF stories do not require more than 65K to 120K
> > to tell. Hmmm. Maybe 60K to 100K.
>
> > [Yes, I am using the non-inclusive meaning of SF]
>
> Vinge's Zones of Thought.
>
> Snow Crash.
Cryptonomicon
Anthony Nance
> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>
> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
> Witchbreed, yes.
>
> Mote in God's Eye, maybe
>
> Dune except I am not sure it really is long. It seemed long in the 1970s
> but back then SF novels were quite short by modern standards. I think
> it's actually only about 400 pages.
>
> Eventually this will work around to my thesis that in almost all (note
> the wiggle room) cases SF stories do not require more than 65K to 120K
> to tell. Hmmm. Maybe 60K to 100K.
>
> [Yes, I am using the non-inclusive meaning of SF]
Most of Banks' Culture novels are pretty long, and I see very
little bloat in those.
Tony
Mike Schilling
"Dave Hansen" <id...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:85efc538-3ec3-4653...@o12g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
>
> Downbelow Station, yes, if it's long enough. Cyteen, maybe.
Cyteen, definitely IMHO.
Silk
>
> - Show quoted text -
A pattern here-Neal Stephenson writes long books.I liked the System of
the World books but their sfness has been disputed.Haven't read his
latest but it looks pretty long.
Joel Olson
news:hu8ct0$3js$1...@reader1.panix.com...
>
Robinson's Mars books seemed (to me) longer than they are.
( http://www.youtube.com/v/CtNWqKKg8gI )
Gerry Quinn
> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>
> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
> Witchbreed, yes.
>
> Mote in God's Eye, maybe
>
> Dune except I am not sure it really is long. It seemed long in the 1970s
> but back then SF novels were quite short by modern standards. I think
> it's actually only about 400 pages.
>
> Eventually this will work around to my thesis that in almost all (note
> the wiggle room) cases SF stories do not require more than 65K to 120K
> to tell. Hmmm. Maybe 60K to 100K.
Maybe some books don't *require* their length to tell their story, but
does that necessarily mean they would be better at shorter length? The
may have other things in them besides story.
Some have argued that the novella is the perfect SF length, and I would
tend to agree, but why shoehorn eveything into that standard.
Gene Wolfe has written stories of just about every possible length from
one page up; and it's hard to say any of his works are the 'wrong'
length, even though some criticise his pacing.
- Gerry Quinn
David DeLaney
>James Nicoll wrote:
>>What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>>
>>The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
>>Witchbreed, yes.
>>
>>Mote in God's Eye, maybe
>>
>>Dune except I am not sure it really is long.
>
> Snow Crash.
> Even if I edited out everything I didn't like from Hamilton's Night's
>Dawn, they'd STILL be longer than 100k, easily.
I'll nominate The Last Dancer by Moran; it's an incredible hodgepodge of stuff,
true, some of which is deep backstory and other parts of which are clearly
Someone Else's Story intruding, but it IS SF, despite the clearly-included
gods, and it wouldn't be the same pared down to the base story of Denise,
Trent, D'Van, and the last Dancer.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I'm reading Weber's _A Mighty Fortress_. I don't think anything happened
until 200+ pages in.
Now, I grant _On Basilisk Station_ was a crackerjack, 2am, book with very
little bloat, but in an ideal world the rest of the HH series would have
been short stories later put together in a 300 page fix-up..
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David Johnston
wrote:
I read Matter and I think it is fair to say that a whole lot of
nothing happens in it.
Greg Goss
>Dune except I am not sure it really is long. It seemed long in the 1970s
>but back then SF novels were quite short by modern standards. I think
>it's actually only about 400 pages.
Dune was actually two novels in magazine serialization. (somewhere in
my boxes, I have one part of "Prophet of Dune" -- the second "novel"
of the first book.)
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27
Mike Voss
news:MPG.2671e19d5...@news.indigo.ie...
> Maybe some books don't *require* their length to tell their story, but
> does that necessarily mean they would be better at shorter length? The
> may have other things in them besides story.
> Some have argued that the novella is the perfect SF length, and I would
> tend to agree, but why shoehorn eveything into that standard.
I think the OP and others are making is that *most* really long SF
books include unnecessary, for want of a better word, dross - stuff
that if left out would leave the novel just as good, or even better
because it's tighter. As James and others note, there are long
novels we *wouldn't* want cut, because the authors are good enough
at what they're doing to keep a reader's interest. Less attempting
to shoehorn, the, as suggest that writers either adhere to a standard of
excellence and make every word count, or stop being quite so in love
with every word they write.
And of course the same standards would apply to editors,
since they ultimately decide which of the words a writer submits
will be published, hopefully with the principle in mind that
suggested cuts wouldimprove the work in question.
A perfect case in point, outside SF, is Thomas Wolfe.
You Can't Go Home Again and Look Homeward, Angel
are both *very* long novels. Without the cuts made by
his editor(s) they'd have been much longer, yet stand
as well-respected literature today. Moby-Dick could
suffer some respectable cutting without falling from
greatness. Undoubtedly many great SF novels
stand in similar stead (to possibly misuse an
idiom - feel free to edit <g>).
Mike
Jack Tingle
> A pattern here-Neal Stephenson writes long books.I liked the System of
> the World books but their sfness has been disputed.Haven't read his
> latest but it looks pretty long.
It's longer than it looks. See recent review.
Regards,
Jack Tingle
Jack Tingle
> I think both THE SHEEP LOOK UP and STAND ON ZANZIBAR hold up well despite
> their ages and zeerust. ...TSLU is perhaps
> somewhat less than completely upbeat.
For certain values of "...liking North Americans". :)
Regards,
Jack Tingle
Jack Tingle
> A perfect case in point, outside SF, is Thomas Wolfe.
> You Can't Go Home Again and Look Homeward, Angel
> are both *very* long novels. Without the cuts made by
> his editor(s) they'd have been much longer, yet stand
> as well-respected literature today. Moby-Dick could
> suffer some respectable cutting without falling from
> greatness. Undoubtedly many great SF novels
> stand in similar stead (to possibly misuse an
> idiom - feel free to edit <g>).
The question, I suppose, could be over-simplified to, "Is good sf
hamburger or saffron?"
Regards,
Jack Tingle
Ed Treijs
> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
If I have to suggest some items, Vinge's Snow Queen/Summer Queen? How
about Metropolitan/City on Fire?
You could argue that both take fantasy-style complicated plotting and
throw it on an SF-ish background.
The more SF-ish the plot, the shorter? (Whatever an "SF-ish plot"
is....)
Default User
"David Johnston" <da...@block.net> wrote in message
news:pd4g06hafqg43ib3e...@4ax.com...
I would agree with that. I didn't much like the semi-medieval society and
inheritance conflict the book set up, but the resolution to was even worse.
Brian
Anthony Nance
Ah...that one I haven't read. Good stuff to know - my thanks
to both of you.
Tony
Moriarty
Personally, I really liked _Matter_, resolution and all. I don't
think there's a lot of bloat in it either. Even the infodump early on
was well done, and necessary for the plot unlike your standard Weber
style infodump which can usually be skipped with no loss of plot at
all.
-Moriarty
Anthony Nance
Mike Schilling
Vlad books), but I wouldn't wish them any shorter.
DouhetSukd
> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>
Yes. I remain impressed by how prescient some of Brunner's work is.
Up to and including water shortages and muckers.
>Dahlgren yes.
An unacquired acquired taste.
Golden
> Witchbreed, yes.
Am intrigued. I liked Ash, but nothing else by her.
> Mote in God's Eye, maybe
>
Mote was good enough that it flew by for me.
Also nominating Neverness by Zindell (only book 1 though). It drags
on sometimes, but still adds up to a wonderful vision.
And I believe there are worse books than Hyperion 1 & 2 which add up
to a pretty big book.
Fire Upon The Deep and Deepness in the Sky are pretty big.
James Nicoll
DouhetSukd <douhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 3, 6:38 am, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>>
>
>
>Am intrigued. I liked Ash, but nothing else by her.
Have a long review.
http://vectoreditors.wordpress.com/2010/05/28/reading-list-golden-witchbreed/
>> Mote in God's Eye, maybe
>
>Mote was good enough that it flew by for me.
It kept my interest when I first began to read it although I was in
the process of walking from Benton and Union to the University of
Waterloo when I started reading (the key is to either look up once
in a which or learn to recognise the air-feel of on-coming lamp-
posts) *and* I had just had major dental work. This is not a test
I've run on anything else [1] but it passed.
1: Oddly, I don't think I had a book with me that time I had to walk
from KW Hospital to the University of Waterloo, with several broken
ribs, during a blizzard so bad all the cabs and buses stopped running.
What a curious oversight.
[crap. Trimmed too much]
ABout the Zindell series: how can you not like Danlo and Galactic
Random Encounter Table?
Brian M. Scott
<douhe...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:cc0d0eee-1e9b-4ea9...@g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
> On Jun 3, 6:38�am, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>> What long SF books are there that actually put all of
>> their pages to good use?
[...]
>>Dahlgren yes.
_Dhalgren_, actually.
> An unacquired acquired taste.
Indeed.
>> Golden Witchbreed, yes.
> Am intrigued. I liked Ash, but nothing else by her.
_Ash_ is ingenious, to say the least, but my favorite of
Mary's is still _Rats and Gargoyles_. (Mind you, I've a
soft spot for _Grunts!_, and I've not yet managed to run
across any of her Roxanne Morgan output.)
[...]
Brian
David Goldfarb
James Nicholl <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <85efc538-3ec3-4653...@o12g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,
>>On Jun 3, 8:38 am, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicholl) wrote:
>>> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to
>good use?
>>>
>>> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
>>> Witchbreed, yes.
>>
>>Dahlgren, no. The others, I'm ashamed to admit, I haven't read.
>
>DAHLGREN has sold over a million copies and gone through dozens of printings.
I assume that this is _Dahlgren_ by Samuel R. Delaney?
--
David Goldfarb |"An athiest is a person who wierdly refuses
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |to recieve the gift of beleif in a diety."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Dave Langford, on rec.arts.sf.fandom
(And for those who've gotten this far without getting the joke: it's
_Dhalgren_, "Delaney", "Hansen", and "Nicoll".)
David Goldfarb
Nigel
> In article <9f3696a2-d4ac-4fa1-b2a2-8f3475398...@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Silk <gilesof...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >On 3 June, 14:38, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> >> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>
> >> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
> >> Witchbreed, yes.
>
<snip>
> >So if it's long it must be fantasy
>
> No.
>
> Long SF books clearly *exist*. I am suggesting most existing long SF books
> would have been better cut down to a much shorter length.
>
That's interesting, because Mote *was* cut down. Pournelle published
one of the cut segments (a prequel on New Scotland) in _A Step Further
Out_, and mentioned another (a spaceship battle near New Chicago).
Cheers,
Nigel.
noRm d. plumBeR
>What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
Is 329 pages "long"? I consider _Jerusalem_Fire_ by R.M. Meluch to be
very well put together.
--
"Vengeance is mine" saith Montezuma
noRm d. plumBeR
>Long SF books clearly *exist*. I am suggesting most existing long SF books
>would have been better cut down to a much shorter length.
If writers could build a world in 50 words they could write much
shorter books that still contain aspects like characters and plot.
Mike Voss
"Nigel" <ncw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:76094e29-fbc5-4050...@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
On 3 June, 16:06, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>> In article
>> <9f3696a2-d4ac-4fa1-b2a2-8f3475398...@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com
>> >On 3 June, 14:38, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>> >> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to
>> >> good use?
>>>> >> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
>> >> Witchbreed, yes.
>>>> >> Mote in God's Eye, maybe
<snip>
>> >So if it's long it must be fantasy
>>>> No
>> would have been better cut down to a much shorter length.
>>
>That's interesting, because Mote *was* cut down. Pournelle published
>one of the cut segments (a prequel on New Scotland) in _A Step Further
>Out_, and mentioned another (a spaceship battle near New Chicago).
"Motelight", described as a prologue.
The other was published as "Reflex".
Together and with a third prison camp scene,
they shortened the book "only" by about 20,000
words. In the prologue to Motelight, Niven/Pournelle
say they ultimately cut a lot more, though,
trimming Mote from 245,000 to 170,000 words.
Hallelujah! I'm guessing the nearly 20K they
published later were the most readable and
interesting of the 85K total in cuts. Seeing
more of that restored in an expanded edition
*might* be interesting reading, but I'm betting
not :-)
Mike
James Nicoll
David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>In article <L3H6M...@kithrup.com>,
>David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>In article <hu8dep$ngb$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>>James Nicholl <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>In article
><85efc538-3ec3-4653...@o12g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,
>>>Dave Hanson <id...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>On Jun 3, 8:38 am, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicholl) wrote:
>>>>> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to
>>>good use?
>>>>>
>>>>> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
>>>>> Witchbreed, yes.
>>>>
>>>>Dahlgren, no. The others, I'm ashamed to admit, I haven't read.
>>>
>>>DAHLGREN has sold over a million copies and gone through dozens of printings.
>>
>>I assume that this is _Dahlgren_ by Samuel R. Delaney?
*sigh* Yes.
>>(And for those who've gotten this far without getting the joke: it's
>>_Dhalgren_, "Delaney", "Hansen", and "Nicoll".)
>
>Arrrrrrgh. "Delany", no e.
>
Hee hee.
David DeLaney
>David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>>James Nicholl <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>Dave Hanson <id...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
>>>>>> Witchbreed, yes.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dahlgren, no. The others, I'm ashamed to admit, I haven't read.
>>>>
>>>>DAHLGREN has sold over a million copies and gone through dozens of
printings.
>>>
>>>I assume that this is _Dahlgren_ by Samuel R. Delaney?
>
>*sigh* Yes.
>
>>>(And for those who've gotten this far without getting the joke: it's
>>>_Dhalgren_, "Delaney", "Hansen", and "Nicoll".)
>>
>>Arrrrrrgh. "Delany", no e.
>
>Hee hee.
No extra charge.
Dave "my work here is ... okay, not yet done" DeLaney
David DeLaney
>jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>Long SF books clearly *exist*. I am suggesting most existing long SF books
>>would have been better cut down to a much shorter length.
>
>If writers could build a world in 50 words they could write much
>shorter books that still contain aspects like characters and plot.
"If"?
_100 Great Fantasy Short Short Stories_, ed. Asimov, Carr, & Greenberg
_100 Great Science Fiction Short Short Stories_, ed. Asimov, Greenberg, &
Olander
Dave
Mike Ash
<cc0d0eee-1e9b-4ea9...@g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
DouhetSukd <douhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Fire Upon The Deep and Deepness in the Sky are pretty big.
I'm a *huge* fan of both books, but would really not mind at all if
about 80% of the kids-and-smart-dogs planet-bound plot was cut from
Fire, and maybe 25% or so of the spider-side plot from Deepness.
Deepness's planet-plot was at least fairly central to the story, but
Fire was basically two books which collide at the end, and one of them
not nearly as interesting as the other.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
noRm d. plumBeR
>noRm d. plumBeR <se...@money.com> wrote:
>>jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>>Long SF books clearly *exist*. I am suggesting most existing long SF books
>>>would have been better cut down to a much shorter length.
>>
>>If writers could build a world in 50 words they could write much
>>shorter books that still contain aspects like characters and plot.
>
>"If"?
>
>_100 Great Fantasy Short Short Stories_, ed. Asimov, Carr, & Greenberg
>_100 Great Science Fiction Short Short Stories_, ed. Asimov, Greenberg, &
> Olander
>
>Dave
cha/a world/any world/
Michael Stemper
>In article <85efc538-3ec3-4653...@o12g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, Dave Hansen <id...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>On Jun 3, 8:38 am, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>>>
>>> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
>>> Witchbreed, yes.
>>
>>Dahlgren, no. The others, I'm ashamed to admit, I haven't read.
>I think both THE SHEEP LOOK UP and STAND ON ZANZIBAR hold up well despite
>their ages and zeerust.
I dunno about that. I re-read _Stand on Zanzibar_ a couple of years
back and was continually annoyed by the assumption that 2010 would
be exactly like 1968, except more so.
> Be warned that while SOZ has a fairly happy arc
>(one characters finds a rewarding job in Asia
That's so dry that it's parching my hands!
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
2 + 2 = 5, for sufficiently large values of 2
Ed Treijs
> I'm a *huge* fan of both books, but would really not mind at all if
> about 80% of the kids-and-smart-dogs planet-bound plot was cut from
> Fire, and maybe 25% or so of the spider-side plot from Deepness.
> Deepness's planet-plot was at least fairly central to the story, but
> Fire was basically two books which collide at the end, and one of them
> not nearly as interesting as the other.
Agreed. The "sociopath dog character misleading the naive kids" plot
really frustrated me. Do Tines have moustaches to twirl? Of course the
reader is pretty sure that it will all work out in the end; in the
meantime, we see entirely too much of the misleading. Being in the
mind of the bad Tine was annoying, possibly distasteful at times.
In general, I don't like sociopath POV action.
Default User
"Mike Ash" <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote in message
news:mike-FFBBB2.1...@reserved-multicast-range-not-delegated.example.com...
> In article
> <cc0d0eee-1e9b-4ea9...@g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
> DouhetSukd <douhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Fire Upon The Deep and Deepness in the Sky are pretty big.
>
> I'm a *huge* fan of both books, but would really not mind at all if
> about 80% of the kids-and-smart-dogs planet-bound plot was cut from
> Fire, and maybe 25% or so of the spider-side plot from Deepness.
> Deepness's planet-plot was at least fairly central to the story, but
> Fire was basically two books which collide at the end, and one of them
> not nearly as interesting as the other.
I heartily endorse this product and/or service.
Brian
Joel Olson
news:hu8b81$ma3$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good
> use?
>
> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
> Witchbreed, yes.
>
>
> but back then SF novels were quite short by modern standards. I think
> it's actually only about 400 pages.
>
> Eventually this will work around to my thesis that in almost all (note
> the wiggle room) cases SF stories do not require more than 65K to 120K
> to tell. Hmmm. Maybe 60K to 100K.
>
> [Yes, I am using the non-inclusive meaning of SF]
> --
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
> http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
> defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
>
I uncertain whether the temporally increasing length correlates best
with the advent of pcs, the sophistication of word processors, or the
increasing size of hard disks.
erilar
"Joel Olson" <joel....@cox.net> wrote:
> "James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:hu8b81$ma3$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> > What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good
> > use?
> >
> > The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes.
Dahlgren NEVER! I like long books if they're good because then there's
more to enjoy. I never managed to slog through Dahlgren even though I'm
a fast reader.
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist
erilar
"noRm d. plumBeR" <se...@money.com> wrote:
> Is 329 pages "long"? I consider _Jerusalem_Fire_ by R.M. Meluch to be
> very well put together.
I don't think I've read it, but I don't consider 329 pages very long 8-)
erilar
"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Dave Hansen" <id...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:85efc538-3ec3-4653...@o12g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Downbelow Station, yes, if it's long enough. Cyteen, maybe.
>
> Cyteen, definitely IMHO.
I have to dig mine out to reread now that I have the sequel on my shelf.
DouhetSukd
> In article
> <cc0d0eee-1e9b-4ea9-8885-73caedde5...@g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
>
> DouhetSukd <douhets...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Fire Upon The Deep and Deepness in the Sky are pretty big.
>
> I'm a *huge* fan of both books, but would really not mind at all if
> about 80% of the kids-and-smart-dogs planet-bound plot was cut from
> Fire, and maybe 25% or so of the spider-side plot from Deepness.
> Deepness's planet-plot was at least fairly central to the story, but
> Fire was basically two books which collide at the end, and one of them
> not nearly as interesting as the other.
>
> --
> Mike Ash
> Radio Free Earth
> Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
MMDV. Just re-read both recently.
About the only bibliography I could see worth reading if I get around
to it is Da Vinci's. And that's who the guy spider reminds me of.
Can't get rid of him then.
Far as Fire goes, the zones of thought idea is brilliant, but would
have had a problem being stretched out over 100 pages, unless the
story was radically altered.
Otherwise, Fire's quest to snuff out the evil Power would make a great
short story or novella. Having the kids around allows for the back
and forth that stretches it out into an interesting novel rather than
a what-if.
But mostly, the story _is_ the multiple body aliens, for me at least.
The only caveat being that I can't see the required information
bandwidth to integrate multiple minds being pushed by ultrasound.
When's Vinge coming out with another book, post-Rainbow?
Mike Schilling
"Michael Stemper" <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote in message
news:hubdgp$bf2$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>> Be warned that while SOZ has a fairly happy arc
>>(one characters finds a rewarding job in Asia
>
> That's so dry that it's parching my hands!
What's more rewarding that a job that allows you to use all of your skills?
Mike Schilling
"erilar" <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:drache-EC7C96....@news.eternal-september.org...
> In article <hu8fme$blm$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Dave Hansen" <id...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:85efc538-3ec3-4653...@o12g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Downbelow Station, yes, if it's long enough. Cyteen, maybe.
>>
>> Cyteen, definitely IMHO.
>
> I have to dig mine out to reread now that I have the sequel on my shelf.
> 8-)
I found Regenesis quite disappointing. Though it may improve on rereading;
Cyteen has, each time.
Mark Reichert
> In article <hu8e3u$r2...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Anthony Nance <na...@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> >James Nicoll <jdnic...@panix.com> wrote:
> >> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>
> >> Witchbreed, yes.
>
> >> Mote in God's Eye, maybe
>
> >> Dune except I am not sure it really is long. It seemed long in the 1970s
> >> but back then SF novels were quite short by modern standards. I think
> >> it's actually only about 400 pages.
>
> >> Eventually this will work around to my thesis that in almost all (note
> >> the wiggle room) cases SF stories do not require more than 65K to 120K
> >> to tell. Hmmm. Maybe 60K to 100K.
>
> >> [Yes, I am using the non-inclusive meaning of SF]
>
> >little bloat in those.
>
> >Tony
>
> I'm reading Weber's _A Mighty Fortress_. I don't think anything happened
> until 200+ pages in.
As I tried to point out in the "Audiobooks highlight bad prose" thread
that only two people responded to, it is MUCH worse in that format.
At least in paper form, a skilled scanning reader can skip over all
the redundant bits. You're forced to listen to every excruciating
word in an audiobook. As I said in that post, 6 CDs in to a 28! CD
book, Weber has had FOUR characters have the exact same internal
dialogue about one subject. And every good guy and honorable bad guy
says or thinks "truth to tell", "to be honest", and they all snort.
(Dishonorable bad guys, being intellectually dishonest and having no
sense of humor, do not use those phrases and do not snort)
> Now, I grant _On Basilisk Station_ was a crackerjack, 2am, book with very
> little bloat, but in an ideal world the rest of the HH series would have
> been short stories later put together in a 300 page fix-up..
Actually, Off Armageddon Reef(1) was better than the next three books,
which have gotten progressively worse. The sort of quality free,
writers finance based writing, multilevel pyramid marketing(2) that
Weber uses (and Sea Wasp defends) won't work if the first book of the
series puts people off. And OBS was even more important to be good in
since he didn't have the luxury of a fawning fan base.
(1) Anybody else notice that similarity of OBS and OAR? On/Off, A and
R being one letter down from B and S.
(2) Publisher marketing in which it only matters that you have more
suckers coming in than are leaving.
Mike Ash
<d8c089da-fcf7-4562...@34g2000prs.googlegroups.com>,
DouhetSukd <douhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 9:38 am, Mike Ash <m...@mikeash.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <cc0d0eee-1e9b-4ea9-8885-73caedde5...@g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > DouhetSukd <douhets...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Fire Upon The Deep and Deepness in the Sky are pretty big.
> >
> > I'm a *huge* fan of both books, but would really not mind at all if
> > about 80% of the kids-and-smart-dogs planet-bound plot was cut from
> > Fire, and maybe 25% or so of the spider-side plot from Deepness.
> > Deepness's planet-plot was at least fairly central to the story, but
> > Fire was basically two books which collide at the end, and one of them
> > not nearly as interesting as the other.
>
> MMDV. Just re-read both recently.
>
> About the only bibliography I could see worth reading if I get around
> to it is Da Vinci's. And that's who the guy spider reminds me of.
> Can't get rid of him then.
You'll note that I only proposed removing 25% of that plot. I think most
of it is good, but it tends to stretch overly long in my view.
> Far as Fire goes, the zones of thought idea is brilliant, but would
> have had a problem being stretched out over 100 pages, unless the
> story was radically altered.
>
> Otherwise, Fire's quest to snuff out the evil Power would make a great
> short story or novella. Having the kids around allows for the back
> and forth that stretches it out into an interesting novel rather than
> a what-if.
To me, the cool thing in the story is the Galactic Usenet. The Zones are
neat too, but as you say, they don't support a story by themselves.
> But mostly, the story _is_ the multiple body aliens, for me at least.
> The only caveat being that I can't see the required information
> bandwidth to integrate multiple minds being pushed by ultrasound.
I liked the aliens. I didn't like the story they were put into very
much. Interesting aliens in an uninteresting story doesn't necessarily
work. Didn't for me this time around, mostly.
> When's Vinge coming out with another book, post-Rainbow?
He is supposedly working on a sequel to Deepness, titled The Children of
the Sky. I have no idea when it's coming out. I found one site that
claims February 2011, but I trust that about as much as a used-car
salesman.
Mike Ash
"Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Would you also like to subscribe to my newsletter?
Mike Ash
<b1c16d67-22cf-4883...@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
Ed Treijs <ed.to...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think you've described my problem as well. More generally, I don't
like plots which revolve around central characters not knowing something
the reader knows. It's ok for a plot to hang on something the reader
doesn't know either, but "character is manipulated by Obvious Evil and
doesn't know it" really grates. I'm thinking that if you cut out all of
the Steel/Flenser action, and just saw Jefri's e-mail and the girl's
(name momentarily forgotten) adventures on the planets, it would be much
more interesting and ambiguous.
Another dissatisfying angle was that there was this epic struggle on the
planet, but once the humans showed up, the bad guys were pretty much
brushed aside. I don't get the impression that the Good Doggies were all
that consequential. If the girl had been killed and they had never
figured out how to work her computer, the story would have turned out
pretty much the same, so what's the point?
Mike Schilling
"Mark Reichert" <Mark_R...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be933013-5fbf-4c34...@u26g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
Even for good books, slow pacing turns deadly in audio format. I've read
_Lord Jim_ happily and expect to do so again some day, but having to listen
to every bit of Marlowe's speculation, digression, and tergiversation out
loud made me want to pull my ears off.
j...@xmission.com
> What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>
> The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes. Golden
> Witchbreed, yes.
>
> Mote in God's Eye, maybe
>
> Dune except I am not sure it really is long. It seemed long in the 1970s
> but back then SF novels were quite short by modern standards. I think
> it's actually only about 400 pages.
>
> Eventually this will work around to my thesis that in almost all (note
> the wiggle room) cases SF stories do not require more than 65K to 120K
> to tell. Hmmm. Maybe 60K to 100K.
>
> [Yes, I am using the non-inclusive meaning of SF]
I thought "The Two Moons" by Hogan was worth it. But then, that might
be cheating the question since it is actually two novels published under
one cover.
Howard Brazee
>I think you've described my problem as well. More generally, I don't
>like plots which revolve around central characters not knowing something
>the reader knows.
That doesn't necessary mean:
>It's ok for a plot to hang on something the reader
>doesn't know either, but "character is manipulated by Obvious Evil and
>doesn't know it" really grates. I'm thinking that if you cut out all of
>the Steel/Flenser action, and just saw Jefri's e-mail and the girl's
>(name momentarily forgotten) adventures on the planets, it would be much
>more interesting and ambiguous.
For instance, there's a style of detective story where we see the
crime and know who did it - and the rest of the book has the detective
figuring it out. (replace "detective" with "spy" or "soldier" or
"lawyer" if you want).
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Howard Brazee
<douhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>About the only bibliography I could see worth reading if I get around
>to it is Da Vinci's. And that's who the guy spider reminds me of.
>Can't get rid of him then.
Did Da Vinci write a bibliography?
Howard Brazee
>To me, the cool thing in the story is the Galactic Usenet. The Zones are
>neat too, but as you say, they don't support a story by themselves.
The Zones are interesting, and allow him to have FTL with even Pohl
accepting it as SF.
But the piece of these books that I tell people about the most is the
side track chapter with the example of what ubiquitous law enforcement
does to a planet.
DouhetSukd
> On Fri, 4 Jun 2010 18:49:29 -0700 (PDT), DouhetSukd
>
> >About the only bibliography I could see worth reading if I get around
> >to it is Da Vinci's. And that's who the guy spider reminds me of.
> >Can't get rid of him then.
>
> Did Da Vinci write a bibliography?
>
A French moment, I plead.
Biography. And not the auto version.
W. Citoan
> On Fri, 4 Jun 2010 18:49:29 -0700 (PDT), DouhetSukd
> <douhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >About the only bibliography I could see worth reading if I get around
> >to it is Da Vinci's. And that's who the guy spider reminds me of.
> >Can't get rid of him then.
>
> Did Da Vinci write a bibliography?
Don't know, but people have written bibliographies of him. I've always
preferred bibliographies to auto-bibliographies (less marketing), but
then they're not something I tend to read (look things up in, yes).
For reading, give me a biography over a bibliography almost anytime.
- W. Citoan
--
Life is an end in itself, and the only question as to whether it is worth
living is whether you have had enough of it.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Gene Wirchenko
Goldfarb) wrote:
>In article <L3H6M...@kithrup.com>,
>David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>>(And for those who've gotten this far without getting the joke: it's
>>_Dhalgren_, "Delaney", "Hansen", and "Nicoll".)
>
>Arrrrrrgh. "Delany", no e.
^
Ahem.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
David DeLaney
>James Nicoll wrote:
>>What long SF books are there that actually put all of their pages to good use?
>
>be cheating the question since it is actually two novels published under
>one cover.
?? If that's only two, it probably SHOULD have been three. Lemme go look ...
Yes, looks like _The Minervan Experiment_ was all three, and _The Two Moons_
left _Giant's Star_ out.
Mike Ash
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 00:13:25 -0400, Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
>
> >I think you've described my problem as well. More generally, I don't
> >like plots which revolve around central characters not knowing something
> >the reader knows.
>
> That doesn't necessary mean:
>
> >It's ok for a plot to hang on something the reader
> >doesn't know either, but "character is manipulated by Obvious Evil and
> >doesn't know it" really grates. I'm thinking that if you cut out all of
> >the Steel/Flenser action, and just saw Jefri's e-mail and the girl's
> >(name momentarily forgotten) adventures on the planets, it would be much
> >more interesting and ambiguous.
>
> For instance, there's a style of detective story where we see the
> crime and know who did it - and the rest of the book has the detective
> figuring it out. (replace "detective" with "spy" or "soldier" or
> "lawyer" if you want).
Sure, it's a fairly common style, doesn't mean I like it. :) I can't
think of any examples of that sort of story offhand, but in general I
don't like it when the mystery is only to a character and not the
reader. Watching somebody work their way out from ignorance when you
already know the answer isn't fun for me.
Mark Reichert
> On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 00:13:25 -0400, Mike Ash <m...@mikeash.com> wrote:
> >I think you've described my problem as well. More generally, I don't
> >like plots which revolve around central characters not knowing something
> >the reader knows.
>
> That doesn't necessary mean:
>
> >It's ok for a plot to hang on something the reader
> >doesn't know either, but "character is manipulated by Obvious Evil and
> >doesn't know it" really grates. I'm thinking that if you cut out all of
> >the Steel/Flenser action, and just saw Jefri's e-mail and the girl's
> >(name momentarily forgotten) adventures on the planets, it would be much
> >more interesting and ambiguous.
>
> For instance, there's a style of detective story where we see the
> crime and know who did it - and the rest of the book has the detective
> figuring it out. (replace "detective" with "spy" or "soldier" or
> "lawyer" if you want).
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReverseWhodunnit
Left out is Asimov's "Whiff of Death", which is not only a Reverse
Whodunnit, but whose detective, Doheny, bears a resemblance to Columbo.
Howard Brazee
>> For instance, there's a style of detective story where we see the
>> crime and know who did it - and the rest of the book has the detective
>> figuring it out. (replace "detective" with "spy" or "soldier" or
>> "lawyer" if you want).
>
>Sure, it's a fairly common style, doesn't mean I like it. :) I can't
>think of any examples of that sort of story offhand, but in general I
>don't like it when the mystery is only to a character and not the
>reader. Watching somebody work their way out from ignorance when you
>already know the answer isn't fun for me.
Another example is the character we know will become a live hero - the
character figures his odds are more likely that he will be cannon
fodder.
I take it you decided not to watch _Titanic_.
Gene Wirchenko
Are you short on time? Would you like to read properly edited
books? Would you just as soon not read the dross?
Cut your reading by 90%.
Turn to Ash.
Mike Ash Editing and Flamethrower Services
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Mike Ash
Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
We Read Your Books So You Don't Have To.
Mike Ash
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 18:50:59 -0400, Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
>
> >> For instance, there's a style of detective story where we see the
> >> crime and know who did it - and the rest of the book has the detective
> >> figuring it out. (replace "detective" with "spy" or "soldier" or
> >> "lawyer" if you want).
> >
> >Sure, it's a fairly common style, doesn't mean I like it. :) I can't
> >think of any examples of that sort of story offhand, but in general I
> >don't like it when the mystery is only to a character and not the
> >reader. Watching somebody work their way out from ignorance when you
> >already know the answer isn't fun for me.
>
> Another example is the character we know will become a live hero - the
> character figures his odds are more likely that he will be cannon
> fodder.
Any story in which a character is supposedly placed in terrible danger,
but the story makes it obvious that He Is The Hero and therefore Must
Survive, I do indeed find annoying. The best ones are where the danger
is credible.
> I take it you decided not to watch _Titanic_.
If the story centered around the captain and crew being idiots and
thereby causing the disaster, I don't think it would be very enjoyable.
As it was, I don't like that movie, but for other reasons. (The basic
plot idea doesn't hit the stumbling block above, because even though the
ship is doomed, the plot revolves around two passengers whose fate is
not pre-ordained, especially not because they're oblivious to something.)
W. Citoan
> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >Would you also like to subscribe to my newsletter?
> >
> > Are you short on time? Would you like to read properly edited
> > books? Would you just as soon not read the dross?
> >
> > Cut your reading by 90%.
> >
> > Turn to Ash.
> >
> > Mike Ash Editing and Flamethrower Services
>
> We Read Your Books So You Don't Have To.
CliffsNotes ... SparkNotes ... AshNotes ?
- W. Citoan
--
What is mind? Never matter. What is matter? Never mind.
-- Thomas Hewitt Key
Mike Ash
"W. Citoan" <wci...@NOSPAM-yahoo.com> wrote:
> Mike Ash wrote:
> > Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Would you also like to subscribe to my newsletter?
> > >
> > > Are you short on time? Would you like to read properly edited
> > > books? Would you just as soon not read the dross?
> > >
> > > Cut your reading by 90%.
> > >
> > > Turn to Ash.
> > >
> > > Mike Ash Editing and Flamethrower Services
> >
> > We Read Your Books So You Don't Have To.
>
> CliffsNotes ... SparkNotes ... AshNotes ?
We provide a subtly but substantially different service. Unlike the
others you mention, which merely provide summaries, we read your books
and then tell you that they weren't worth your attention in the first
place, thus saving you valuable time and effort that otherwise would
have been wasted.
Bill Snyder
wrote:
>In article <slrni0n8ef....@wcitoan-via.eternal-september.org>,
> "W. Citoan" <wci...@NOSPAM-yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Mike Ash wrote:
>> > Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >Would you also like to subscribe to my newsletter?
>> > >
>> > > Are you short on time? Would you like to read properly edited
>> > > books? Would you just as soon not read the dross?
>> > >
>> > > Cut your reading by 90%.
>> > >
>> > > Turn to Ash.
>> > >
>> > > Mike Ash Editing and Flamethrower Services
>> >
>> > We Read Your Books So You Don't Have To.
>>
>> CliffsNotes ... SparkNotes ... AshNotes ?
>
>We provide a subtly but substantially different service. Unlike the
>others you mention, which merely provide summaries, we read your books
>and then tell you that they weren't worth your attention in the first
>place, thus saving you valuable time and effort that otherwise would
>have been wasted.
And I'm sure the fact that this simultaneously strokes the
customer's ego and assures him that your service is worth every
penny is purely coincidental.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
>In article <fmql06tq4gcg6c6n9...@4ax.com>,
> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 18:50:59 -0400, Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> For instance, there's a style of detective story where we see the
>> >> crime and know who did it - and the rest of the book has the detective
>> >> figuring it out. (replace "detective" with "spy" or "soldier" or
>> >> "lawyer" if you want).
>> >
>> >Sure, it's a fairly common style, doesn't mean I like it. :) I can't
>> >think of any examples of that sort of story offhand, but in general I
>> >don't like it when the mystery is only to a character and not the
>> >reader. Watching somebody work their way out from ignorance when you
>> >already know the answer isn't fun for me.
>>
>> Another example is the character we know will become a live hero - the
>> character figures his odds are more likely that he will be cannon
>> fodder.
>
>Any story in which a character is supposedly placed in terrible danger,
>but the story makes it obvious that He Is The Hero and therefore Must
>Survive, I do indeed find annoying. The best ones are where the danger
>is credible.
>
Do you avoid all first-person books, then?
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Howard Brazee
>If the story centered around the captain and crew being idiots and
>thereby causing the disaster, I don't think it would be very enjoyable.
>As it was, I don't like that movie, but for other reasons. (The basic
>plot idea doesn't hit the stumbling block above, because even though the
>ship is doomed, the plot revolves around two passengers whose fate is
>not pre-ordained, especially not because they're oblivious to something.)
I forgot - wasn't the movie a flashback for one of the leads?
Mike Ash
t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
There's no conflict with first-person books. Not all (or even a lot of)
books hinge on life-threatening danger to the protagonist, for one
thing. Of those that do, since it's fiction, there's no actual
requirement that the narrator survive to tell his tale. And even if
there were, good writing can make you forget about it in the suspense of
the moment.
Mike Ash
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 06:52:56 -0400, Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
>
> >If the story centered around the captain and crew being idiots and
> >thereby causing the disaster, I don't think it would be very enjoyable.
> >As it was, I don't like that movie, but for other reasons. (The basic
> >plot idea doesn't hit the stumbling block above, because even though the
> >ship is doomed, the plot revolves around two passengers whose fate is
> >not pre-ordained, especially not because they're oblivious to something.)
>
> I forgot - wasn't the movie a flashback for one of the leads?
A fine point. However, it wasn't a flashback for the other, and in fact
he does (SPOILER IF YOU CARE ABOUT SILLY 90s MOVIES) die at the end.
Robert Bannister
> In article <slrni0n8ef....@wcitoan-via.eternal-september.org>,
> "W. Citoan" <wci...@NOSPAM-yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Mike Ash wrote:
>>> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
>>>>> Would you also like to subscribe to my newsletter?
>>>> Are you short on time? Would you like to read properly edited
>>>> books? Would you just as soon not read the dross?
>>>>
>>>> Cut your reading by 90%.
>>>>
>>>> Turn to Ash.
>>>>
>>>> Mike Ash Editing and Flamethrower Services
>>> We Read Your Books So You Don't Have To.
>> CliffsNotes ... SparkNotes ... AshNotes ?
>
> We provide a subtly but substantially different service. Unlike the
> others you mention, which merely provide summaries, we read your books
> and then tell you that they weren't worth your attention in the first
> place, thus saving you valuable time and effort that otherwise would
> have been wasted.
>
Could you go to the gym for me, thus saving me getting up early and
having achy bits later?
--
Rob Bannister
erilar
<mike-D96158.1...@62-183-169-81.bb.dnainternet.fi>,
Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
When I discover that type of story, I just dump it. If I want a
mystery, I want it mysterious. And I don't care for sf or fantasy
variations on the style, either.
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist
erilar
<mike-66D67C.1...@62-183-169-81.bb.dnainternet.fi>,
Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
> In article <c26o065mv8fkd1k90...@4ax.com>,
> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 06:52:56 -0400, Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
> >
> > >If the story centered around the captain and crew being idiots and
> > >thereby causing the disaster, I don't think it would be very enjoyable.
> > >As it was, I don't like that movie, but for other reasons. (The basic
> > >plot idea doesn't hit the stumbling block above, because even though the
> > >ship is doomed, the plot revolves around two passengers whose fate is
> > >not pre-ordained, especially not because they're oblivious to something.)
> >
> > I forgot - wasn't the movie a flashback for one of the leads?
>
> A fine point. However, it wasn't a flashback for the other, and in fact
> he does (SPOILER IF YOU CARE ABOUT SILLY 90s MOVIES) die at the end.
Good. I never saw it and never wanted to.
erilar
"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Even for good books, slow pacing turns deadly in audio format. I've read
> _Lord Jim_ happily and expect to do so again some day, but having to listen
> to every bit of Marlowe's speculation, digression, and tergiversation out
> loud made me want to pull my ears off.
I've never been interested in having someone read me a book. I'm much
too fast a reader to put up with it 8-)
David Johnston
<dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
>In article <huckq0$4je$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Even for good books, slow pacing turns deadly in audio format. I've read
>> _Lord Jim_ happily and expect to do so again some day, but having to listen
>> to every bit of Marlowe's speculation, digression, and tergiversation out
>> loud made me want to pull my ears off.
>
>I've never been interested in having someone read me a book. I'm much
>too fast a reader to put up with it 8-)
It works fine as long you are playing a computer game at the time.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's still a *mystery*. It's just that who killed Mr. Body is not the
mystery. *How* Columbo proves it is the mystery. (And when it's done
well, you don't see his path clear going into it..)
David DeLaney
>> books? Would you just as soon not read the dross?
>>
>> Cut your reading by 90%.
>>
>> Turn to Ash.
>>
>> Mike Ash Editing and Flamethrower Services
>
>We Read Your Books So You Don't Have To.
I thought James Nicoll had a trademark on a very similar concept?
Mike Ash
Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
I believe I could offer that service, yes, but the price would be
substantially more than the book-reading service.
Robert A. Woodward
t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
There is also, WHY it was done (obSF _The Demolished Man_).
--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>
David Duffy
> In article <sFgOn.41483$Ak3....@newsfe16.iad>,
> "Joel Olson" <joel....@cox.net> wrote:
>> "James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
>> > The Sheep Look Up and Stand on Zanzibar, yes. Dahlgren yes.
> Dahlgren NEVER! I like long books if they're good because then there's
This must be from the mispelt word thread.
Kurt Busiek
Or "can they catch him before he does it again/gets them/reaches his
goal/whatever?"
I just read STORM PREY by John Sandford last night, a procedural
thriller where we know from the opening pages whodunit, because we see
them do it. The rest of the book is cops trying to find them while they
try to cover loose ends, more and more destructively.
Watching the cops try to figure out something the reader already knows
works fine for me because the cops can't just read chapter one and
figure it all out; they have to do the police work. They also have to
do more than figure it out, but be able to prove it to a judge (for
warrants) and eventually, a jury (though in this case, not many of the
bad guys make it to trial).
But if Erilar doesn't like procedurals, no sweat. They have enough of
an audience to manage anyway.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
noRm d. plumBeR
>I just read STORM PREY by John Sandford last night, a procedural
>thriller where we know from the opening pages whodunit, because we see
>them do it. The rest of the book is cops trying to find them while they
>try to cover loose ends, more and more destructively.
Sandford has written some entertaining stuff. When sci-fi seemed to
"dry up" in the early '90s or whenever it was, I read a lot of books
in that genre. Stuart Woods was writing some pretty decent stuff too
for a while, then he seemed to get successful and lean more toward the
rich-hotsy-totsy side of things. Ridley Pearson writes some of the
best in that genre.
obsf: Okay, so them guys is off topic, if you haven't read them and
you like detective stories, try Jack Chalker's _Labyrinth_Of_Dreams_
series which is sci-fi.
--
"Vengeance is mine" saith Montezuma
Michael Stemper
>noRm d. plumBeR <se...@money.com> wrote:
>>jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>>Long SF books clearly *exist*. I am suggesting most existing long SF books
>>>would have been better cut down to a much shorter length.
>>
>>If writers could build a world in 50 words they could write much
>>shorter books that still contain aspects like characters and plot.
>
>"If"?
>
>_100 Great Fantasy Short Short Stories_, ed. Asimov, Carr, & Greenberg
That's what immediately popped into my mind when noRm made his comment.
A&G actually talk in the introduction about the way that the authors in
this collection economically sketch the worlds in which their stories
take place.
The one problem with that is: it's all a lie. Most of the stories are
set in (then-)contemporary America. In the rest, we learn nothing about
the world in which they're set.
It's still a great collection, but the stories don't exemplify what
the editors claimed they did.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
Mark Reichert
> In article <huckq0$4j...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Even for good books, slow pacing turns deadly in audio format. I've read
> > _Lord Jim_ happily and expect to do so again some day, but having to listen
> > to every bit of Marlowe's speculation, digression, and tergiversation out
> > loud made me want to pull my ears off.
>
> I've never been interested in having someone read me a book. I'm much
> too fast a reader to put up with it 8-)
As are most of us here, but can you read while driving? While doing
some other visually oriented task? I can listen to an audiobook then
without it interfering.
Robert Bannister
I am told it is very soothing while ironing. Unfortunately, I have
officially declared my iron and ironing board no-go areas, and the three
remaining shirts I own that require ironing now go to the laundry.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
Foiled again.
--
Rob Bannister
Jonathan Schattke
Well, I've read while I was driving on the freeway. I'm not saying it
was the wisest thing to do. Actually, most people who drive alone have
probably consulted a map while driving, come to think of it.
Mike Schilling
"erilar" <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:drache-560194....@62-183-169-81.bb.dnainternet.fi...
> In article <huckq0$4je$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Even for good books, slow pacing turns deadly in audio format. I've read
>> _Lord Jim_ happily and expect to do so again some day, but having to
>> listen
>> to every bit of Marlowe's speculation, digression, and tergiversation out
>> loud made me want to pull my ears off.
>
> I've never been interested in having someone read me a book. I'm much
> too fast a reader to put up with it 8-)
I used to listen in the car. Now that that portion of my commute is down to
10 minutes, no longer.
Michael Stemper
I withdraw these comments. I was thinking of _50 Great Short SF Stories_,
edited by Asimov and Conklin. I've never read this one.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Reunite Gondwanaland!
Michael Stemper
>> On Jun 4, 12:38 pm, Mike Ash <m...@mikeash.com> wrote:
>> > I'm a *huge* fan of both books, but would really not mind at all if
>> > about 80% of the kids-and-smart-dogs planet-bound plot was cut from
>> > Fire,
>Another dissatisfying angle was that there was this epic struggle on the
>planet, but once the humans showed up, the bad guys were pretty much
>brushed aside. I don't get the impression that the Good Doggies were all
>that consequential. If the girl had been killed and they had never
>figured out how to work her computer, the story would have turned out
>pretty much the same, so what's the point?
Part of the point was the way the computer realized that they didn't
know how to work it, and adapted its behavior to guide them in learning
how to use it. Until I read your post, it never ocurred to me that the
same thing happened with _The Young Lady's Primer_ in _Diamond Age_.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce,
they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.
Mike Ash
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
> In article
> <mike-724041.0...@reserved-multicast-range-not-delegated.example.com
> >, Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> writes:
> >> On Jun 4, 12:38 pm, Mike Ash <m...@mikeash.com> wrote:
>
> >> > I'm a *huge* fan of both books, but would really not mind at all if
> >> > about 80% of the kids-and-smart-dogs planet-bound plot was cut from
> >> > Fire,
>
> >Another dissatisfying angle was that there was this epic struggle on the
> >planet, but once the humans showed up, the bad guys were pretty much
> >brushed aside. I don't get the impression that the Good Doggies were all
> >that consequential. If the girl had been killed and they had never
> >figured out how to work her computer, the story would have turned out
> >pretty much the same, so what's the point?
>
> Part of the point was the way the computer realized that they didn't
> know how to work it, and adapted its behavior to guide them in learning
> how to use it. Until I read your post, it never ocurred to me that the
> same thing happened with _The Young Lady's Primer_ in _Diamond Age_.
I never thought of that either. It's an interesting comparison. Still,
it's unrelated to the main point. That diversion would have been far
more interesting if the good aliens actually mattered in some way to
destroying the antagonist.
William December Starr
Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> said:
> t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
>> Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Any story in which a character is supposedly placed in terrible
>>> danger, but the story makes it obvious that He Is The Hero and
>>> therefore Must Survive, I do indeed find annoying. The best ones
>>> are where the danger is credible.
>>
>> Do you avoid all first-person books, then?
>
> There's no conflict with first-person books. Not all (or even a
> lot of) books hinge on life-threatening danger to the protagonist,
> for one thing. Of those that do, since it's fiction, there's no
> actual requirement that the narrator survive to tell his tale. And
> even if there were, good writing can make you forget about it in
> the suspense of the moment.
In the crime/mystery field, I recall (very weakly) a Donald E.
Westlake short story that ended in mid-sentence as the first-person
narrator got shot dead[1].
(Of course, the unspoken meta-rules for short stories differ a bit
from those for novels -- the reader has invested less time and
therefore is not as badly "cheated" when the author does something
"against the rules" like that.)
*1: And in SF there's the novel <rot13> HC GUR YVAR ol Eboreg
Fvyireoret</rot13> which ends just about exactly the same way.
-- wds
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
And in SF (and fantasy), death is not always insurmountable, thus
_We All Died at Breakaway Station_ by Richard C Meredith.
Still *felt* like a cheat though.