"Men in the walls" stories?
il...@rcn.com
unimaginative
aliens invading Earth, and us humans stunning them with our creativity
and
inventiveness." It has been done to death, and did not make a
believable or very interesting story even the first time around, IMO.
What I like much more, but seems to be much rarer is "men in the
walls" stories -- humans living in an alien-dominated environment,
stealing and making use of alien technology and/or biota, and
surviving through stealth, skill and sheer bloody-mindedness. IOW,
humans as rats*.
Greg Benford did this amazingly well in "Galactic Center" series, but
aside from him I can think only of one short story ("In the Bone")
which used that theme. One of Stainless Steel Rat books plays on "men
in walls" idea, but in a total slapstick comedy manner. I am looking
for something as serious as Benford. Any suggestions?
* Which would be quite an accomplishment, if you think of it. There is
no mammal more adaptable and indestructible than Rattus Norvegicus,
and when their fleas and germs are taken into account, no mammal more
deadly to Homo Sapiens. Were humans to become a pest as ineradicable
and dangerous toward something a million years more technologically
superior, my hat is off to my species!
Dorothy J Heydt
<il...@rcn.com> wrote:
>One very common SF storyline I dislike is "advanced, but stodgy and
>unimaginative
>aliens invading Earth, and us humans stunning them with our creativity
>and
>inventiveness." It has been done to death, and did not make a
>believable or very interesting story even the first time around, IMO.
>What I like much more, but seems to be much rarer is "men in the
>walls" stories -- humans living in an alien-dominated environment,
>stealing and making use of alien technology and/or biota, and
>surviving through stealth, skill and sheer bloody-mindedness. IOW,
>humans as rats*.
Well, there's always William Tenn's "The Men in the Walls," which
got expanded into a novel whose title escapes me.
/grep
_Of Men and Monsters._
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Dan Goodman
> One very common SF storyline I dislike is "advanced, but stodgy and
> unimaginative
> aliens invading Earth, and us humans stunning them with our creativity
> and
> inventiveness." It has been done to death, and did not make a
> believable or very interesting story even the first time around, IMO.
> What I like much more, but seems to be much rarer is "men in the
> walls" stories -- humans living in an alien-dominated environment,
> stealing and making use of alien technology and/or biota, and
> surviving through stealth, skill and sheer bloody-mindedness. IOW,
> humans as rats*.
>
> Greg Benford did this amazingly well in "Galactic Center" series, but
> aside from him I can think only of one short story ("In the Bone")
> which used that theme. One of Stainless Steel Rat books plays on "men
> in walls" idea, but in a total slapstick comedy manner. I am looking
> for something as serious as Benford. Any suggestions?
William Tenn; short "The Men in the Walls," expanded as _Of Men and
Monsters_.
Rob Chilson, _Men Like Rats_.
John Brunner, _Day of the Star Cities_/_Age of Miracles_.
And, for another slant, F. L. Wallace's "Big Ancestor."
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
future http://dangoodman.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Nyrath the nearly wise
> What I like much more, but seems to be much rarer is "men in the
> walls" stories -- humans living in an alien-dominated environment,
> stealing and making use of alien technology and/or biota, and
> surviving through stealth, skill and sheer bloody-mindedness. IOW,
> humans as rats*.
>
> Greg Benford did this amazingly well in "Galactic Center" series, but
> aside from him I can think only of one short story ("In the Bone")
> which used that theme. One of Stainless Steel Rat books plays on "men
> in walls" idea, but in a total slapstick comedy manner. I am looking
> for something as serious as Benford. Any suggestions?
There was OF MEN AND MONSTERS by William Tenn.
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/t/william-tenn/of-men-and-monsters.htm
There was another short story, I forget the name.
It featured an alien called a "ribboneer".
I think it was called "Big Ancestor" and was
collected in Galactic Empires vol 2.
Nicholas Waller
> Greg Benford did this amazingly well in "Galactic Center" series, but
> aside from him I can think only of one short story ("In the Bone")
> which used that theme. One of Stainless Steel Rat books plays on "men
> in walls" idea, but in a total slapstick comedy manner. I am looking
> for something as serious as Benford. Any suggestions?
In Hitchhiker's Guide, of course, men live in the wainscotting of a
galaxy dominated by mice. But I doubt this is serious enough (or
features enough) for your interest.
How about Eric Frank Russell's _Wasp_? See http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/wasp.htm
for a review. It's one man undercover rather than Humanity as a whole,
though.
--
Nick
Remus Shepherd
> What I like much more, but seems to be much rarer is "men in the
> walls" stories -- humans living in an alien-dominated environment,
> stealing and making use of alien technology and/or biota, and
> surviving through stealth, skill and sheer bloody-mindedness. IOW,
> humans as rats*.
> Greg Benford did this amazingly well in "Galactic Center" series, but
> aside from him I can think only of one short story ("In the Bone")
> which used that theme. One of Stainless Steel Rat books plays on "men
> in walls" idea, but in a total slapstick comedy manner. I am looking
> for something as serious as Benford. Any suggestions?
David Brin's Uplift series is something like this -- humans are
unsponsored 'wolflings' in a universe where every sentient species was
uplifted by one older than themselves.
The first three novels -- Sundiver, Startide Rising, and The Uplift
War -- are highly recommended. The second trilogy is skippable, and as
it centers on aliens it doesn't go as deeply into the themes you want.
... ...
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com>
Indefensible Positions -- a story of superheroic philosophy.
http://indepos.comicgenesis.com/
Joseph Nebus
>What I like much more, but seems to be much rarer is "men in the
>walls" stories -- humans living in an alien-dominated environment,
>stealing and making use of alien technology and/or biota, and
>surviving through stealth, skill and sheer bloody-mindedness. IOW,
>humans as rats*.
My useless contribution to the thread: Why is the metaphor
always rats? Why not humans as raccoons, often mischievous, sometimes
dangerous, liked as they're kind of cute but chased out for always
making messes, only determinedly hunted when wearing their pelts comes
back into style, with folks observing that if they ever figured out how
to work screwdrivers then Civilization would be doomed?
Well, I mean, other than in how those nigh-omnipotent beings
with abundant spare time viewed humans on the Original Star Trek.
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Lindgren
nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
> Why not humans as raccoons, often mischievous, sometimes dangerous,
> liked as they're kind of cute but chased out for always making
> messes, only determinedly hunted when wearing their pelts comes back
> into style, with folks observing that if they ever figured out how
> to work screwdrivers then Civilization would be doomed?
Deep multi-mouth sigh. "If humans could figure out how to work the
Nx'blat'zzaag, then Civilization would be doomed."
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren "Too jaded to question stagnation"
Robert Sneddon
<***********@*****.***> writes
>Deep multi-mouth sigh. "If humans could figure out how to work the
>Nx'blat'zzaag, then Civilization would be doomed."
"Idiot Stick", by (I think) Damon Knight.
--
To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon
il...@rcn.com
> always rats? Why not humans as raccoons, often mischievous, sometimes
> dangerous, liked as they're kind of cute but chased out for always
> making messes, only determinedly hunted when wearing their pelts comes
> back into style, with folks observing that if they ever figured out how
> to work screwdrivers then Civilization would be doomed?
Two reasons, I think. First, humans would not make good racoons in
such situation -- most of us do not have enough of a sense of humor or
willingness to accept our station in life to pull it off without
growing either embittered (and thus not cute any more), greedy (and
thus more pestiferous), or desiring a better station (and thus
actively dangerous). Second, racoons are only cute and endearing
because *we find them so* -- they happen to push human "cuteness
buttons" the way skunks and wild dogs don't -- even though skunks and
wild dogs do not act all that different from racoons. "Humans as
racoons" requires aliens whose emotional buttons we just happen to
press. And if that happened, I think humans would be smart enough to
ingratiate themselves into position of "cats".
il...@rcn.com
> galaxy dominated by mice. But I doubt this is serious enough (or
> features enough) for your interest.
Right. Also, (most) humans are not aware that they live in a
wainscotting, which kind of defeates the point.
> How about Eric Frank Russell's _Wasp_? Seehttp://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/wasp.htm
> for a review. It's one man undercover rather than Humanity as a whole,
> though.
No, that's not what I am talking about at all. Wasp is an undercover
agent who comes from a society technologically equal (more or less) to
one he infiltrates.
Tenn's "Of Men and Monsters" sounds like what I want to read. I
noticed how it addresses what must be a rather difficult obvious
question when writing such stories: How do humans manage to stay
invisible or near-invisible to the aliens? Seems that Tenn's Monsters
are simply so huge, humans can hide among their artifacts just like
mice. Benford's Mechs are not necessarily huge (actually, most Mechs
are smaller than people), but most of them are not self-aware
individuals. Rather, every physical discreet Mech is part of a network
which can spread across a continent, or a planet -- and such network
has trouble noticing something as small as humans. Hunter-killer mechs
humans avoid or battle with are more like antibodies, or perhaps cats,
than conscious exteminators.
MPorcius
> What I like much more, but seems to be much rarer is "men in the
> walls" stories -- humans living in an alien-dominated environment,
> stealing and making use of alien technology and/or biota, and
> surviving through stealth, skill and sheer bloody-mindedness. IOW,
> humans as rats*.
>
You might like Daniel F. Galouye's "The City of Force," a 60 or 70
page story that adresses this very theme. I have it in _Bodyguard and
Four Other Short Novels From Galaxy_, ed. by H.L. Gold, and I rather
liked it.
Peter Meilinger
> What I like much more, but seems to be much rarer is "men in the
> walls" stories -- humans living in an alien-dominated environment,
> stealing and making use of alien technology and/or biota, and
> surviving through stealth, skill and sheer bloody-mindedness. IOW,
> humans as rats*.
Have you read Pratchett's books about the Nomes? They're
tiny human-like folks living in a human world, but the basic
idea is the same, and the books make for good reading.
Pete
Christopher J. Henrich
<il...@rcn.com> wrote:
> No, that's not what I am talking about at all. Wasp is an undercover
> agent who comes from a society technologically equal (more or less) to
> one he infiltrates.
For a moment I read this as a statement (true, in a way) about "Sea
Wasp."
--
Chris Henrich
http://www.mathinteract.com
God just doesn't fit inside a single religion.
Benedict
Second, racoons are only cute and endearing
> because *we find them so* -- they happen to push human "cuteness
> buttons" the way skunks and wild dogs don't -- even though skunks and
> wild dogs do not act all that different from racoons. "Humans as
> racoons" requires aliens whose emotional buttons we just happen to
> press.
Vernor Vinge does this very well in "A deepness in the sky" showing
how humans press the cuteness / emotional buttons of an alien species
in the same way as racoons do ours (infant like features pushing child
rearing buttons)
il...@rcn.com
> how humans press the cuteness / emotional buttons of an alien species
> in the same way as racoons do ours (infant like features pushing child
> rearing buttons)
Which aliens were that? I read "Deepness in the sky" more than 10
years ago and do not remember this part of it.
Benedict
I don't have my copy with me so can't remember the actual name, but it
was the spiders whose planet the emergents and Quang Ho are lurking
above. Towards the end of the book, after the delurk, humans are
referred do as cute (tho' I don't think that word is used) as they
have to turn to see things like baby spiders.
Nyrath the nearly wise
> You might like Daniel F. Galouye's "The City of Force," a 60 or 70
> page story that adresses this very theme. I have it in _Bodyguard and
> Four Other Short Novels From Galaxy_, ed. by H.L. Gold, and I rather
> liked it.
I think that was later expanded into the novel
Lords of the Psychon
Nyrath the nearly wise
> Two reasons, I think. First, humans would not make good racoons in
> such situation -- most of us do not have enough of a sense of humor or
> willingness to accept our station in life to pull it off without
> growing either embittered (and thus not cute any more), greedy (and
> thus more pestiferous), or desiring a better station (and thus
> actively dangerous).
That reminds me of the short story "For Love"
by Algis Budrys.
An alien spacecraft about a hundred miles tall
lands. It sends out robot miners to dig ore,
and totally ignores all the human beings.
The armies of the world spend the next
couple of decades trying to get the aliens
to notice us.
John Schilling
Unless, you know, the actual cats got there first.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
James Nicoll
<il...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>Two reasons, I think. First, humans would not make good racoons in
>such situation -- most of us do not have enough of a sense of humor or
>willingness to accept our station in life to pull it off without
>growing either embittered (and thus not cute any more), greedy (and
>thus more pestiferous), or desiring a better station (and thus
>actively dangerous). Second, racoons are only cute and endearing
>because *we find them so* -- they happen to push human "cuteness
>buttons" the way skunks and wild dogs don't
Skunks can be cute, in an amiable "my IQ is just slightly higher
than a bug" kind of way. My family had a pet skunk in the 1960s.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Robert Carnegie
Likewise (somewhat), The Borrowers.
And there's H. P. Lovecraft stuff. And Iain M. Banks. And maybe
_Planet of the Apes_ (_Monkey Planet_) and the book _The War of the
Worlds_ - one character proposes we will survive in tunnels, scavenge
Martian technology, and finally defeat them. But he's crazy. For
that matter, Wells's Martians are swiped in the _Killraven_ comics
series. I hesitate to mention "Tripods", yet another version of a
sort, because independent survival of humans in their world isn't
feasible - I don't think they eat us but they want to give the planet
a chlorine atmosphere like their own.
Dave Empey
@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
> One very common SF storyline I dislike is "advanced, but stodgy and
> unimaginative
> aliens invading Earth, and us humans stunning them with our creativity
> and
> inventiveness." It has been done to death, and did not make a
> believable or very interesting story even the first time around, IMO.
> What I like much more, but seems to be much rarer is "men in the
> walls" stories -- humans living in an alien-dominated environment,
> stealing and making use of alien technology and/or biota, and
> surviving through stealth, skill and sheer bloody-mindedness. IOW,
> humans as rats*.
>
> Greg Benford did this amazingly well in "Galactic Center" series, but
> aside from him I can think only of one short story ("In the Bone")
> which used that theme. One of Stainless Steel Rat books plays on "men
> in walls" idea, but in a total slapstick comedy manner. I am looking
> for something as serious as Benford. Any suggestions?
>
*Of Men and Monsters*, William Tenn. I don't remember it as
being particularly slapstick, but I see that "Tenn is best known
as a satirist" so there may be satire there I didn't see as a kid.
--
Dave Empey
Remember, if you're doing any major experiments in stellar
dynamics, always mount a scratch star first! --Richard Todd
Jens Kilian
> Second, racoons are only cute and endearing
> because *we find them so* -- they happen to push human "cuteness
Skunks *are* cute - if a bit unsettling if you meet one in the wild.
There are people keeping them (descented ones) as pets.
--
mailto:j...@acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
http://del.icio.us/jjk
James Nicoll
>il...@rcn.com writes:
>> Second, racoons are only cute and endearing
>> because *we find them so* -- they happen to push human "cuteness
>> buttons" the way skunks and wild dogs don't [...]
>
>Skunks *are* cute - if a bit unsettling if you meet one in the wild.
>There are people keeping them (descented ones) as pets.
I've encountered a lot of wild skunks and most of them were
happy enough to let me go my way if I let them go their way. There was
one that was headed the same way that I was, who walked next to me for
the length of the old access road to CKMS and a mating pair that seemed
put out to have a human suddenly, although I note that didn't stop them.
Oh, and there was one that _really_ wanted to be allowed into my house,
who seemed very sad at being locked out.
Now, a _rabid_ skunk is bad news but I've never seen a rabid
animal of any kind.
James Nicoll
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <87wt11i...@earrame.de>, Jens Kilian <j...@acm.org> wrote:
>>il...@rcn.com writes:
>>> Second, racoons are only cute and endearing
>>> because *we find them so* -- they happen to push human "cuteness
>>> buttons" the way skunks and wild dogs don't [...]
>>
>>Skunks *are* cute - if a bit unsettling if you meet one in the wild.
>>There are people keeping them (descented ones) as pets.
>
> I've encountered a lot of wild skunks and most of them were
>happy enough to let me go my way if I let them go their way. There was
>one that was headed the same way that I was, who walked next to me for
>the length of the old access road to CKMS and a mating pair that seemed
>put out to have a human suddenly
interupt them.
The thing is, skunk spray is metabolically expense, so they
don't want to use it if they can avoid it. In fact, they have clear
warning signs that they use to avoid having to spray, warning signs
that no dog has ever learned to recognise.
Wim Lewis
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Mar 25, 12:43 pm, i...@rcn.com wrote:
>> What I like much more, but seems to be much rarer is "men in the
>> walls" stories -- humans living in an alien-dominated environment,
>> stealing and making use of alien technology and/or biota, and
>> surviving through stealth, skill and sheer bloody-mindedness. IOW,
>> humans as rats*.
>
>sort, because independent survival of humans in their world isn't
>feasible - I don't think they eat us but they want to give the planet
>a chlorine atmosphere like their own.
The Tripods stories came to my mind, too. I'd forgotten the planned
chlorine atmosphere aspect, although I might argue that if we built
cities the way we sometimes imagine we want to, rats would have a hard time
surviving as well. But the way we actually build cities, rats seem to
get by.
A somewhat different "men as rats" scenario is Chtorr.
Has anyone mentioned the Strugatskies' _Roadside Picnic_?
--
Wim Lewis <wi...@hhhh.org>, Seattle, WA, USA. PGP keyID 27F772C1
Thomas Lindgren
il...@rcn.com writes:
> What I like much more, but seems to be much rarer is "men in the
> walls" stories -- humans living in an alien-dominated environment,
> stealing and making use of alien technology and/or biota, and
> surviving through stealth, skill and sheer bloody-mindedness. IOW,
> humans as rats*.
Here are a few broadly in that subgenre:
Thomas Disch, THE GENOCIDES
Thomas Disch, THE PUPPIES OF TERRA
Pohl & Kornbluth, WOLFBANE
William Tenn, OF MEN AND MONSTERS
Robert Carnegie
> Now, a _rabid_ skunk is bad news but I've never seen a rabid
> animal of any kind.
Now that's odd. :-)
John F. Eldredge
<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
I have never seen an animal that I knew for sure was rabid, but I have
seen some acting oddly, which is a danger sign of possible infection.
Knowing for sure that a given animal is rabid requires that laboratory
tests be done on a sample of its brain.
Chances are that James has seen at least one rabid animal during his
life, but didn't know that it was rabid.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Bill Snyder
<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
"Interestingly enough, I never actually saw the vampire bat, before or
after it bit me . . ."
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
James Nicoll
Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> wrote:
>On 31 Mar 2007 15:12:21 -0700, "Robert Carnegie"
><rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Now, a _rabid_ skunk is bad news but I've never seen a rabid
>>> animal of any kind.
>>
>>Now that's odd. :-)
>
>"Interestingly enough, I never actually saw the vampire bat, before or
>after it bit me . . ."
They're apparently good at sneaking up on stuff, which I guess
if you are a small and crunky predator feeding on much larger animals,
you'd have to be.
I do know someone who woke up to find a (regular) bat had crawled
into bed with them for the heat. After carefully removing the bat and
placing it outside in a tree, then going back in to bed, he noticed that
it had bitten him. By that point the bat had flown off so there was no
alternative but the full rabies treatment.
I was considered somewhat odd at the hospital for not just killing
the bats that sometimes got in if it was possible to capture and release
them.
Carol Hague
> I was considered somewhat odd at the hospital for not just killing
> the bats that sometimes got in if it was possible to capture and release
> them.
In the UK, bats are protected species and you're not supposed to touch
them at all, much less kill them. But then we don't have rabies here
(touch wood). I imagine things might be different if we did.
--
Carol
"Never trust a man wearing leather shorts and a plastic dressing gown"
- Spray, "The Dangerous Sports Club"
John M. Gamble
<il...@rcn.com> wrote:
>One very common SF storyline I dislike is "advanced, but stodgy and
>unimaginative
>aliens invading Earth, and us humans stunning them with our creativity
>and
>inventiveness." It has been done to death, and did not make a
>believable or very interesting story even the first time around, IMO.
>walls" stories -- humans living in an alien-dominated environment,
>stealing and making use of alien technology and/or biota, and
>surviving through stealth, skill and sheer bloody-mindedness. IOW,
>humans as rats*.
>
*Men Like Rats* by Bob Chilson? (Yes, the "like" should have been an
"as").
--
-john
February 28 1997: Last day libraries could order catalogue cards
from the Library of Congress.
Harry Erwin
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>
> > I was considered somewhat odd at the hospital for not just killing
> > the bats that sometimes got in if it was possible to capture and release
> > them.
>
> In the UK, bats are protected species and you're not supposed to touch
> them at all, much less kill them. But then we don't have rabies here
> (touch wood). I imagine things might be different if we did.
We do have rabies (Lyssavirus) here. We had a bat worker in Scotland die
of it. For a while after that, I was the only member of the local bat
group who had the necessary shots. (I had accumulated them working in a
bat lab in America.)
--
Harry Erwin <http://www.theworld.com/~herwin>
My neuroscience wikiwiki is at
<http://scat-he-g4.sunderland.ac.uk/~harryerw/phpwiki/index.php>
Carol Hague
> Carol Hague <ca...@wrhpv.com> wrote:
>
> > James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > I was considered somewhat odd at the hospital for not just killing
> > > the bats that sometimes got in if it was possible to capture and release
> > > them.
> >
> > In the UK, bats are protected species and you're not supposed to touch
> > them at all, much less kill them. But then we don't have rabies here
> > (touch wood). I imagine things might be different if we did.
>
> We do have rabies (Lyssavirus) here. We had a bat worker in Scotland die
> of it. For a while after that, I was the only member of the local bat
> group who had the necessary shots. (I had accumulated them working in a
> bat lab in America.)
I didn't know that. Thanks.
--
Carol
"The glassblower's cat is bompstable"
- Dorothy L. Sayers, _Clouds of Witness_