Overpopulation SF

[Cryptoengineer]

Now we are 7 ... billion.

We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around
Halloween. That was the population of the Earth in 'Make Room! Make
Room!',
filmed as 'Soylent Green'.

What SF stories have dealt with gross overpopulation? Which one
posited the highest population for the planet?

These come to mind immediately:

Make Room! Make Room! 7 billion (in 1999)
The Caves of Steel 8 billion
Foundation (on Trantor) 45 billion
The World Inside 75 billion
A Torrent of Faces Trillion(s?)

I also remember one non-fiction speculative essay ("The Ruddy Limit")
which went far, far higher, but it required reconstructing the Earth
into a much larger multi-decked sphere, and had heat dissipation as
the limiting factor.

I don't count stories that change humans to something smaller and
easier to pack, such as in Blood Music (10^15 or so).

pt

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 10/3/11 5:33 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
> Now we are 7 ... billion.
>
> We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around
> Halloween. That was the population of the Earth in 'Make Room! Make
> Room!',
> filmed as 'Soylent Green'.
>
> What SF stories have dealt with gross overpopulation? Which one
> posited the highest population for the planet?
>
> These come to mind immediately:
>
> Make Room! Make Room! 7 billion (in 1999)
> The Caves of Steel 8 billion
> Foundation (on Trantor) 45 billion
> The World Inside 75 billion
> A Torrent of Faces Trillion(s?)
>

There was an (I think) Asimov story, with the numbers in the trillions,
in which the main character is someone keeping alive the last non-human
animals -- a zoo with things like Guinea Pigs and things like that. It
concludes with them ordering him to get rid of the animals because they
take up the resources of at least ten people. He follows his orders and
then kills himself, IIRC.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Lynn McGuire]

There is the classic movie, "Silent Running".
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067756/

_Flood_ by Stephen Baxter is what happens when the
oceans rise 10,000 meters over 50 years and the
amount of habitable land drops to zero:
http://www.amazon.com/Flood-Stephen-Baxter/dp/B002XULY2S/

Lynn

[Butch Malahide]

On Oct 3, 4:33 pm, Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now we are 7 ... billion.
>
> We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around
> Halloween.

What is the prediction for peak population?

> What SF stories have dealt with gross overpopulation? Which one
> posited the highest population for the planet?

J. T. McIntosh, "The Million Cities":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Million_Cities

I don't recall what the population was, but they were really packed
in.

> I don't count stories that change humans to something smaller and
> easier to pack, such as in Blood Music (10^15 or so).

I never heard of that one, but the classic stories on that theme are
Robert Abernathy's "The Giants Return" and Robert Bloch's "This
Crowded Earth".

[John Dierdorf]

On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:35:08 -0500, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>
wrote:

>On 10/3/2011 4:33 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>> Now we are 7 ... billion.
>>
>> We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around
>> Halloween. That was the population of the Earth in 'Make Room! Make
>> Room!',
>> filmed as 'Soylent Green'.
>>
>> What SF stories have dealt with gross overpopulation? Which one
>> posited the highest population for the planet?
>>
>> These come to mind immediately:
>>
>> Make Room! Make Room! 7 billion (in 1999)
>> The Caves of Steel 8 billion
>> Foundation (on Trantor) 45 billion
>> The World Inside 75 billion
>> A Torrent of Faces Trillion(s?)

Stand on Zanzibar 7 billion (2010)

[Greg Goss]

Butch Malahide <fred....@gmail.com> wrote:


>> I don't count stories that change humans to something smaller and
>> easier to pack, such as in Blood Music (10^15 or so).
>
>I never heard of that one,

Well, the intelligent characters werent human.
--
"If the Gods Had Meant Us to Vote They Would Have Given Us Candidates" (Jim Hightower)

[Paul Colquhoun]

Niven's "Known Space" stories have a heavily populated earth. I'm not
near my books to look up the figures, but Wikipedia says

"Known Space" 18 billion


--
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC. http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
Asking for technical help in newsgroups? Read this first:
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro

[James Nicoll]

In article <d15b466d-0cdb-4c5b...@z8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,

Cryptoengineer <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Now we are 7 ... billion.
>
>We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around
>Halloween. That was the population of the Earth in 'Make Room! Make
>Room!',
>filmed as 'Soylent Green'.
>
>What SF stories have dealt with gross overpopulation? Which one
>posited the highest population for the planet?
>
>These come to mind immediately:
>
>Make Room! Make Room! 7 billion (in 1999)
>The Caves of Steel 8 billion
>Foundation (on Trantor) 45 billion
>The World Inside 75 billion
>A Torrent of Faces Trillion(s?)
>

Known Space has Earth at about 18 billion for centuries, iirc.

The Thousand Cultures has 50 billion total, about half on Earth.


--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

[Peter Huebner]

In article <d15b466d-0cdb-4c5b...@z8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
pete...@gmail.com says...

>
> Now we are 7 ... billion.
>

"Stand on Zanzibar" by John Brunner was the first I ever read on this theme.

-P.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <MPG.28f55a24e...@news.individual.net>,

It made it into Star Trek memorably with that one where Kirk wakes up
alone on "The Enterprise" except for that girl. THe image of people
pressed all against the mock-up and their heart-beats was pretty
creepy.

Then there was that Farmer story where the problem is solved by
freezing everyone and thawing them one day out of seven.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[DouhetSukd]

On Oct 3, 2:33 pm, Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now we are 7 ... billion.
>
> We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around
> Halloween. That was the population of the Earth in 'Make Room! Make
> Room!',
> filmed as 'Soylent Green'.
>
> What SF stories have dealt with gross overpopulation? Which one
> posited the highest population for the planet?
>

Chung Kuo. 43?
Mind over Ship, Counting Heads
Dayworld PJ Farmer

Blade Runner

Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. Not.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:49:07 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:

>Butch Malahide <fred....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> I don't count stories that change humans to something smaller and
>>> easier to pack, such as in Blood Music (10^15 or so).
>>
>>I never heard of that one,
>
>Well, the intelligent characters werent human.

A few of them were right at the end, they got 'uploaded' into the
noosphere. Unless that was a snark on Bear's character writing?

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Happiness, n.: An agreeable sensation arising from contemplating the
misery of another. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

[William F. Adams]

On Oct 3, 8:11 pm, Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 3, 4:33 pm, Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Now we are 7 ... billion.
>
> > We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around
> > Halloween.
>
> What is the prediction for peak population?

It's been shifting downward a bit of late --- but little has been made
of it, presumably 'cause people don't want to upset the apple cart.

The most optimistic has it peaking at around 7.75 billion in 2025 or
so, others are 9.25 billion in 2065 or 14 billion and still trending
up in 2100.

William

[James Nicoll]

In article <d15b466d-0cdb-4c5b...@z8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Cryptoengineer <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Now we are 7 ... billion.
>

What population level would you not consider overpopulation?

[James Nicoll]

In article <b40559d5-27e7-4c82...@gd10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

Why is the low estimate the optimistic one?

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 10/4/11 10:22 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article<b40559d5-27e7-4c82...@gd10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> William F. Adams<will...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 3, 8:11 pm, Butch Malahide<fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Oct 3, 4:33 pm, Cryptoengineer<petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now we are 7 ... billion.
>>>
>>>> We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around
>>>> Halloween.
>>>
>>> What is the prediction for peak population?
>>
>> It's been shifting downward a bit of late --- but little has been made
>> of it, presumably 'cause people don't want to upset the apple cart.
>>
>> The most optimistic has it peaking at around 7.75 billion in 2025 or
>> so, others are 9.25 billion in 2065 or 14 billion and still trending
>> up in 2100.
>
> Why is the low estimate the optimistic one?

Because obviously the planet cannot support more than a few million
hunter-gatherers, as our modern techniques require us to use
petrochemicals to artificially enrich the soil and once the oil runs out
the agribusiness will collapse and we'll all die off in an orgy of
cannibalism and starvation before returning to a simpler, better time of
no antibiotics, rampant infection, and other of the attractions of
yesteryear.

[Greg Goss]

Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:

>On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:49:07 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>
>>Butch Malahide <fred....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> I don't count stories that change humans to something smaller and
>>>> easier to pack, such as in Blood Music (10^15 or so).
>>>
>>>I never heard of that one,
>>
>>Well, the intelligent characters werent human.
>
>A few of them were right at the end, they got 'uploaded' into the
>noosphere. Unless that was a snark on Bear's character writing?

I don't remember that bit. It's been a while since I read it, and I
don't "memorize" books I've read this side of my teens.

[Dan Goodman]

On Tue, 04 Oct 2011 14:00:26 +0000, James Nicoll wrote:

> In article
> <d15b466d-0cdb-4c5b...@z8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> Cryptoengineer <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Now we are 7 ... billion.
>>
> What population level would you not consider overpopulation?

For one simple answer, see the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement.



--
Dan Goodman

[Greg Goss]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>> Why is the low estimate the optimistic one?
>
> Because obviously the planet cannot support more than a few million
>hunter-gatherers, as our modern techniques require us to use
>petrochemicals to artificially enrich the soil and once the oil runs out
>the agribusiness will collapse and we'll all die off in an orgy of
>cannibalism and starvation before returning to a simpler, better time of
>no antibiotics, rampant infection, and other of the attractions of
>yesteryear.

... sometime before the year 2000.

Limits to Growth and Population Bomb and some (titles forgotten)
Asimov novels were all pretty clear that the end was coming within
thirty years.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Oct 4, 4:52 am, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> In article <d15b466d-0cdb-4c5b-86b3-2279afa71...@z8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,

>
>
>
> Cryptoengineer  <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Now we are 7 ... billion.
>
> >We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around
> >Halloween. That was the population of the Earth in 'Make Room! Make
> >Room!',
> >filmed as 'Soylent Green'.
>
> >What SF stories have dealt with gross overpopulation? Which one
> >posited the highest population for the planet?
>
> >These come to mind immediately:
>
> >Make Room! Make Room!       7 billion (in 1999)
> >The Caves of Steel                  8 billion
> >Foundation (on Trantor)     45 billion
> >The World Inside                    75 billion
> >A Torrent of Faces                  Trillion(s?)
>
> Known Space has Earth at about 18 billion for centuries, iirc.

And reproduction a capital offence, i/i/rc, at least in organ-bank
times. But then, passing a stop light - or something similar - was a
capital offence, in one of those.

[Lynn McGuire]

Peak oi just got moved to 2100 by the new Shale
Oil and horizontal drilling technology. If then.

Lynn

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Don't worry, the new tar sands pipeline is "game over" for the planet,
according to the emails I've been getting, so humanity will be dead long
before peak oil happens.

I wish the people who desperately want to stop new oil development
because of global warming weren't *ALSO* apparently the people mostly
against nuclear reactors because Japan's couldn't withstand a Richter 9
without damage.

[her...@btinternet.com.invalid]

In article
<d15b466d-0cdb-4c5b...@z8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Cryptoengineer <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

What is the population necessary to maintain the current level of
technology?

Over the last forty years, the number of people in my speciality (which
changed from time to time) tended to be two digits. A serious dose of
food poisoning at a conference would have wiped out the world-wide skill
base.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Tue, 04 Oct 2011 09:16:37 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:

>Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:49:07 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>
>>>Butch Malahide <fred....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> I don't count stories that change humans to something smaller and
>>>>> easier to pack, such as in Blood Music (10^15 or so).
>>>>
>>>>I never heard of that one,
>>>
>>>Well, the intelligent characters werent human.
>>
>>A few of them were right at the end, they got 'uploaded' into the
>>noosphere. Unless that was a snark on Bear's character writing?
>
>I don't remember that bit. It's been a while since I read it, and I
>don't "memorize" books I've read this side of my teens.

Nor do I, so I may be misremembering. I don't appear to have a copy of
it any more to check, which I should do something about.

My memory is that after the bugs make the leap from internal to
*everywhere* they absorb the useful organic matter that were humans,
but kindly incorporating their minds into the new world. So "a few" is
probably "5x10^9" compared to the 10^15 or so bugs.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"I do not like the feel of the middle way; and I do not like the smell of
the left hand way" -- J R R Tolkien

[Ilya2]

> > What population level would you not consider overpopulation?
>
> For one simple answer, see the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement.

I take it, your answer is "current population, minus all members of
VHEM"? I would not mind that.

[Lynn McGuire]

The people against the tar sands pipeline are idiots. The
tar sands oil will be moved into the USA by rail line or
pipeline, period. The Canadians just do not have the
refinery capacity to handle the heavy tar sand oil like
the USA refineries do. The chance of having an oil spill
from a rail line is much greater than that of a pipeline.
Maybe 100X.

I wish that we were building four new nuclear power plants
instead of the one nuclear power plant under construction
in the USA right now. Each nuclear power plant is good
for 10,000 blue collar jobs for four years. And high
paying skilled jobs ($25+/hour)!

Although, I do think that all new nuclear power plants
should have the extra thick dome (six feet of concrete
and rebar) that the three mile island domes have. There
is a lot of evidence that the extra two feet is what
saved three mile island from cracking it's dome during
the "event".

Lynn

[Scott Lurndal]

"William F. Adams" <will...@aol.com> writes:
>On Oct 3, 8:11=A0pm, Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Oct 3, 4:33=A0pm, Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Now we are 7 ... billion.
>>
>> > We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around
>> > Halloween.
>>
>> What is the prediction for peak population?
>
>It's been shifting downward a bit of late --- but little has been made
>of it, presumably 'cause people don't want to upset the apple cart.
>
>The most optimistic has it peaking at around 7.75 billion in 2025 or
>so, others are 9.25 billion in 2065 or 14 billion and still trending
>up in 2100.
>
>William

You may find these analyses on the limits to growth (particularly on the
limits to physical growth - i.e. energy) to be of interest:

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/09/discovering-limits-to-growth/
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/can-economic-growth-last/
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/

scott

[art...@yahoo.com]

On Oct 3, 5:33 pm, Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now we are 7 ... billion.
>
> We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around

> Halloween. That was the population of the Earth in 'Make Room! Make
> Room!',
> filmed as 'Soylent Green'.
>
> What SF stories have dealt with gross overpopulation? Which one
> posited the highest population for the planet?

George Turner had several including Drowning Towers and The Destiny
Makers.
In the latter, the earth's population was 12 Billion.

[Edward A. Falk]

In article <9evjim...@mid.individual.net>,

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>In article <MPG.28f55a24e...@news.individual.net>,
>Peter Huebner <no....@this.address> wrote:
>
>It made it into Star Trek memorably with that one where Kirk wakes up
>alone on "The Enterprise" except for that girl. THe image of people
>pressed all against the mock-up and their heart-beats was pretty
>creepy.

Mark of Gideon.

>Then there was that Farmer story where the problem is solved by
>freezing everyone and thawing them one day out of seven.

There's a short story in Stanislov Lem's "Star Diaries" where people do
something similar.

I'm also thinking of "Half Past Human", but I don't know the number that
was given for the population. The human race had been bred into small
little people known as "nebishes" who didn't need as much in the way of
resources as regular people.

And along those lines is Vonnegut's novel "Slapstick" in which the
Chinese miniaturize themselves all the way down to microscopic scale.
--
-Ed Falk, fa...@despams.r.us.com
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

[Robert Carnegie]

On Oct 4, 5:28 pm, her...@btinternet.com.invalid wrote:
> In article
> <d15b466d-0cdb-4c5b-86b3-2279afa71...@z8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>

Doesn't your parenthetical comment imply that some other people could
be re-trained into the missing discipline? ;-)

And, do you fly on separate planes, and, like pilots, choose different
meals?

(Captain picks first, I suppose?)

[Derek Lyons]

her...@btinternet.com.invalid wrote:
>What is the population necessary to maintain the current level of
>technology?

That is a debate that has, over the years, been repeated many times
with no significant conclusion reached.

>Over the last forty years, the number of people in my speciality (which
>changed from time to time) tended to be two digits. A serious dose of
>food poisoning at a conference would have wiped out the world-wide skill
>base.

Is your specialty necessary to maintain the current level of
technology? Or, to put it another way, I suspect specialties that
small are research specialties rather than operational ones.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

[Joseph Nebus]

In <j6fl61$uv0$2...@blue-new.rahul.net> fa...@rahul.net (Edward A. Falk) writes:

>I'm also thinking of "Half Past Human", but I don't know the number that
>was given for the population. The human race had been bred into small
>little people known as "nebishes" who didn't need as much in the way of
>resources as regular people.

A fortunate vowel is all that's keeping me from being
pointlessly offended by that story.

--
http://nebusresearch.wordpress.com/ Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Joseph Nebus]

In <9f0mea...@mid.individual.net> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:

>... sometime before the year 2000.

>Limits to Growth and Population Bomb and some (titles forgotten)
>Asimov novels were all pretty clear that the end was coming within
>thirty years.

Hm. I don't recall any Asimov Overpopulated Hells, with the
exception of the irradiated Earth everyone supposed was survivor of
an atomic war, or any where Earth reaches that hopeless overpopulated
state within thirty years. Which obvious cases am I overlooking?

I do remember a few of his planets depicted as Overpopulated,
but that the residents at least felt that things were pleasant enough
on average despite the occasional inconvenience.

My rough estimate is that an 'Overpopulated' world is one that
has twice the population that the Earth had when the person making the
estimate was a teenager, and 'Impossibly Overpopulated' occurs when
the planet has three times that teen-baseline population.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Oct 4, 9:28 pm, nebu...@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:

> In <9f0meaFrq...@mid.individual.net> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>
> >... sometime before the year 2000.
> >Limits to Growth and Population Bomb and some (titles forgotten)
> >Asimov novels were all pretty clear that the end was coming within
> >thirty years.
>
>         Hm.  I don't recall any Asimov Overpopulated Hells, with the
> exception of the irradiated Earth everyone supposed was survivor of
> an atomic war, or any where Earth reaches that hopeless overpopulated
> state within thirty years.  Which obvious cases am I overlooking?  
>
>         I do remember a few of his planets depicted as Overpopulated,
> but that the residents at least felt that things were pleasant enough
> on average despite the occasional inconvenience.  

Imperial Trantor depended on imports, I think - food, maybe fissile
material? It's completely urban and full of people.

(I've been vaguely trying to remember who - maybe "Doc" Smith - had
Earth importing crude oil from other planets, maybe other systems.)

The Star Wars capital we eventually read about and saw, Coruscant, has
similar issues.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <74676b3a-f956-4f7e...@fx14g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Oct 4, 9:28 pm, nebu...@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
>> In <9f0meaFrq...@mid.individual.net> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>>
>> >... sometime before the year 2000.
>> >Limits to Growth and Population Bomb and some (titles forgotten)
>> >Asimov novels were all pretty clear that the end was coming within
>> >thirty years.
>>
>>         Hm.  I don't recall any Asimov Overpopulated Hells, with the
>> exception of the irradiated Earth everyone supposed was survivor of
>> an atomic war, or any where Earth reaches that hopeless overpopulated
>> state within thirty years.  Which obvious cases am I overlooking?  
>>
>>         I do remember a few of his planets depicted as Overpopulated,
>> but that the residents at least felt that things were pleasant enough
>> on average despite the occasional inconvenience.  
>
>Imperial Trantor depended on imports, I think - food, maybe fissile
>material? It's completely urban and full of people.

But is it overpopulated? I mean New York City relies on food and
other imports. So do a number of countries.

I recall some Asimov anecdote where someone was discussing with him the
dystopia he had imagined for _The Caves of Steel_, and it hadn't occured
to him that life in an enclosed mega-city would be perceived that way.

[Stewart Robert Hinsley]

In message
<74676b3a-f956-4f7e...@fx14g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes

E.E. Smith, "Subspace Explorers".

>
>The Star Wars capital we eventually read about and saw, Coruscant, has
>similar issues.

--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

[Greg Goss]

nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:

>In <9f0mea...@mid.individual.net> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>
>>... sometime before the year 2000.
>
>>Limits to Growth and Population Bomb and some (titles forgotten)
>>Asimov novels were all pretty clear that the end was coming within
>>thirty years.
>
> Hm. I don't recall any Asimov Overpopulated Hells, with the
>exception of the irradiated Earth everyone supposed was survivor of
>an atomic war, or any where Earth reaches that hopeless overpopulated
>state within thirty years. Which obvious cases am I overlooking?

I didn't intend to say "novels". I was thinking of essays in
magazines.

[Greg Goss]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>And reproduction a capital offence, i/i/rc, at least in organ-bank
>times. But then, passing a stop light - or something similar - was a
>capital offence, in one of those.

Sigmund Ausfaller gets demoted to Mother Hunts for a while after the
Puppeteers depart Known Space. He and his partner didn't like the
duty.

[Wayne Throop]

:: Hm. I don't recall any Asimov Overpopulated Hells, with the

:: exception of the irradiated Earth everyone supposed was survivor of
:: an atomic war, or any where Earth reaches that hopeless overpopulated
:: state within thirty years. Which obvious cases am I overlooking?

Well there was that short story where the entire biomass of the earth
was taken up with humans plus food yeast (perhaps Soylent Green Brand
Food Yeast). But he didn't really say it was all that hellish, I suppose.

[James Nicoll]

In article <74676b3a-f956-4f7e...@fx14g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Oct 4, 9:28 pm, nebu...@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
>> In <9f0meaFrq...@mid.individual.net> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>>
>> >... sometime before the year 2000.
>> >Limits to Growth and Population Bomb and some (titles forgotten)
>> >Asimov novels were all pretty clear that the end was coming within
>> >thirty years.
>>
>>         Hm.  I don't recall any Asimov Overpopulated Hells, with the
>> exception of the irradiated Earth everyone supposed was survivor of
>> an atomic war, or any where Earth reaches that hopeless overpopulated
>> state within thirty years.  Which obvious cases am I overlooking?  
>>
>>         I do remember a few of his planets depicted as Overpopulated,
>> but that the residents at least felt that things were pleasant enough
>> on average despite the occasional inconvenience.  
>
>Imperial Trantor depended on imports, I think - food, maybe fissile
>material? It's completely urban and full of people.

It's not full of people, actually. It's more like surprisingly empty
of people, given the apparent floor area on the place. It's a desolate,
empty world of echoing corridors.

[Paul Colquhoun]

On Wed, 5 Oct 2011 02:46:48 +0000 (UTC), James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
| In article <74676b3a-f956-4f7e...@fx14g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
| Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
|>On Oct 4, 9:28 pm, nebu...@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
|>> In <9f0meaFrq...@mid.individual.net> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
|>>
|>> >... sometime before the year 2000.
|>> >Limits to Growth and Population Bomb and some (titles forgotten)
|>> >Asimov novels were all pretty clear that the end was coming within
|>> >thirty years.
|>>
|>>         Hm.  I don't recall any Asimov Overpopulated Hells, with the
|>> exception of the irradiated Earth everyone supposed was survivor of
|>> an atomic war, or any where Earth reaches that hopeless overpopulated
|>> state within thirty years.  Which obvious cases am I overlooking?  
|>>
|>>         I do remember a few of his planets depicted as Overpopulated,
|>> but that the residents at least felt that things were pleasant enough
|>> on average despite the occasional inconvenience.  
|>
|>Imperial Trantor depended on imports, I think - food, maybe fissile
|>material? It's completely urban and full of people.
|
|
| It's not full of people, actually. It's more like surprisingly empty
| of people, given the apparent floor area on the place. It's a desolate,
| empty world of echoing corridors.

When? During the height of the Empire? Or much later, when the Second
Foundation representatives visit, after the collapse of the Empire?


--
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC. http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
Asking for technical help in newsgroups? Read this first:
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro

[David Goldfarb]

In article <slrnj8nvtq.e...@andor.dropbear.id.au>,

Paul Colquhoun <newsp...@andor.dropbear.id.au> wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Oct 2011 02:46:48 +0000 (UTC), James Nicoll
><jdni...@panix.com> wrote:

[Imperial Trantor]

>| It's not full of people, actually. It's more like surprisingly empty
>| of people, given the apparent floor area on the place. It's a desolate,
>| empty world of echoing corridors.
>
>When? During the height of the Empire? Or much later, when the Second
>Foundation representatives visit, after the collapse of the Empire?

At the height of the Empire -- *given* the population figures we're
told, divided by the amount of floor space that should be available.
In other words, Asimov didn't do the math.

--
David Goldfarb |"Hello, this is Leslie Down with the daily home
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | astrology report.
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | TAURUS: Contemplate domestic turmoil.
| AQUARIUS: Abandon hope for future plans." -- TMBG

[James Nicoll]

In article <slrnj8nvtq.e...@andor.dropbear.id.au>,
Paul Colquhoun <newsp...@andor.dropbear.id.au> wrote:

At its height. Trantor has 75 million square miles of land, all so
built up it is possible to go years without going outside. From roof
to basement is about two kilometers. Assuming one floor per 10 meters,
that's 200 floors or a total area of 15 billion square miles. 40 billion
over 15 billion works out to 2 2/3rds people per square mile or fewer
people per unit area than Mongolia or the Sahara.

[Cryptoengineer]

On Oct 4, 12:56 pm, Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org>

wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Oct 2011 09:16:37 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> >Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>
> >>On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:49:07 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>

> >>>Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> I don't count stories that change humans to something smaller and
> >>>>> easier to pack, such as in Blood Music (10^15 or so).
>
> >>>>I never heard of that one,
>
> >>>Well, the intelligent characters werent human.
>
> >>A few of them were right at the end, they got 'uploaded' into the
> >>noosphere. Unless that was a snark on Bear's character writing?
>
> >I don't remember that bit.  It's been a while since I read it, and I
> >don't "memorize" books I've read this side of my teens.
>
> Nor do I, so I may be misremembering. I don't appear to have a copy of
> it any more to check, which I should do something about.
>
> My memory is that after the bugs make the leap from internal to
> *everywhere* they absorb the useful organic matter that were humans,
> but kindly incorporating their minds into the new world. So "a few" is
> probably "5x10^9" compared to the 10^15 or so bugs.

After I posted, I realized that I'd made a couple errors. The
intelligences that made up most of the noosphere were smaller than a
human cell, and actually incorporated all organic matter, not just
humans. If it were just humans, it would be around 10^21. Multiply
that by the ratio of human flesh to all other organic matter; I
suspect at least another 10^6.

pt

[William F. Adams]

On Oct 4, 1:48 pm, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> "William F. Adams" <willad...@aol.com> writes:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Oct 3, 8:11=A0pm, Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Oct 3, 4:33=A0pm, Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Now we are 7 ... billion.
>
> >> > We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around
> >> > Halloween.
>
> >> What is the prediction for peak population?
>
> >It's been shifting downward a bit of late --- but little has been made
> >of it, presumably 'cause people don't want to upset the apple cart.
>
> >The most optimistic has it peaking at around 7.75 billion in 2025 or
> >so, others are 9.25 billion in 2065 or 14 billion and still trending
> >up in 2100.
>
> >William
>
> You may find these analyses on the limits to growth (particularly on the
> limits to physical growth - i.e. energy) to be of interest:
>

>  http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/09/discovering-limits-to-gro...
>  http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/can-economic-growth-last/
>  http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/

Thanks.

I did think of a group of stories on overpopulation --- many of the
short stories by Hal Clement in his collection _Space Lash_(originally
published as _Small Changes).

William

[William F. Adams]

On Oct 4, 10:22 am, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> In article <b40559d5-27e7-4c82-8d3d-78080438b...@gd10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> William F. Adams <willad...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Oct 3, 8:11 pm, Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> On Oct 3, 4:33 pm, Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Now we are 7 ... billion.
>
> >> > We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around
> >> > Halloween.
>
> >> What is the prediction for peak population?
>
> >It's been shifting downward a bit of late --- but little has been made
> >of it, presumably 'cause people don't want to upset the apple cart.
>
> >The most optimistic has it peaking at around 7.75 billion in 2025 or
> >so, others are 9.25 billion in 2065 or 14 billion and still trending
> >up in 2100.
>

> Why is the low estimate the optimistic one?

Because I'd like to live in a world where there are still untrammeled
spaces, and room to breathe, and space for non-industrial agriculture
and land costs are moderate enough that single-dwelling homes are an
affordable option for the majority of people.

William
(who is still trying to save up enough money for his cabin in the
woods)

[her...@btinternet.com.invalid]

In article <4e8f6355....@news.supernews.com>,

fair...@gmail.com (Derek Lyons) wrote:

> her...@btinternet.com.invalid wrote:
> >What is the population necessary to maintain the current level of
> >technology?
>
> That is a debate that has, over the years, been repeated many times
> with no significant conclusion reached.
>
> >Over the last forty years, the number of people in my speciality (which
> >changed from time to time) tended to be two digits. A serious dose of
> >food poisoning at a conference would have wiped out the world-wide skill
> >base.
>
> Is your specialty necessary to maintain the current level of
> technology? Or, to put it another way, I suspect specialties that
> small are research specialties rather than operational ones.

It was usually a speciality that was just getting started. I usually
retrained when the number of specialists reached three digits and
customers could start to be choosy.

The UK uses an apprentice system to train its high-level experts. That
means it hasn't maintained its expertise in a lot of technologies and
has had to import foreign experts. The current Government has decided to
stop doing that, and the effects were immediately obvious in a number of
very high tech areas.

My underlying point is that some niche specialities are desperately
needed but there are very small numbers of experts. If population
declines, at what point does technology get lost?

[Remus Shepherd]

William F. Adams <will...@aol.com> wrote:

> On Oct 4, 10:22?am, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> > >The most optimistic has it peaking at around 7.75 billion in 2025 or
> > >so, others are 9.25 billion in 2065 or 14 billion and still trending
> > >up in 2100.
> >
> > Why is the low estimate the optimistic one?

> Because I'd like to live in a world where there are still untrammeled
> spaces, and room to breathe, and space for non-industrial agriculture
> and land costs are moderate enough that single-dwelling homes are an
> affordable option for the majority of people.

> William
> (who is still trying to save up enough money for his cabin in the
> woods)

I've got that cabin in the woods -- well, in a cornfield -- and even
with internet, it's not all it's cracked up to be. I'm lonely.

But those estimates come from U.N. population projections, if I'm not
mistaken, and along with the numbers they also predicted the political
outcomes of such population numbers. While we could feed and shelter 14
billion people if we were all lovey-dovey and efficient, we are not, and
the greater scenario is often described as 'Malthusean'. (That's economic
speak for 'Really Bad'.)

The UN put out several different scenarios, including one where
population peaks at about 8 billion in 2040 or so, then declines to 6
billion by 2100. So continuous increases are not guaranteed, and there
is hope. It's unlikely, though.

... ...
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com>
New Webcomic: Genocide Man http://www.genocideman.com/
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Oct 4, 10:46 pm, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
> In article <74676b3a-f956-4f7e-bbb7-1e163825b...@fx14g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

> Robert Carnegie  <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Oct 4, 9:28 pm, nebu...@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
> >> In <9f0meaFrq...@mid.individual.net> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>
> >> >... sometime before the year 2000.
> >> >Limits to Growth and Population Bomb and some (titles forgotten)
> >> >Asimov novels were all pretty clear that the end was coming within
> >> >thirty years.
>
> >>         Hm.  I don't recall any Asimov Overpopulated Hells, with the
> >> exception of the irradiated Earth everyone supposed was survivor of
> >> an atomic war, or any where Earth reaches that hopeless overpopulated
> >> state within thirty years.  Which obvious cases am I overlooking?  
>
> >>         I do remember a few of his planets depicted as Overpopulated,
> >> but that the residents at least felt that things were pleasant enough
> >> on average despite the occasional inconvenience.  
>
> >Imperial Trantor depended on imports, I think - food, maybe fissile
> >material?  It's completely urban and full of people.
>
> But is it overpopulated?  I mean New York City relies on food and
> other imports.  So do a number of countries.

Well... I think ideally a country should be able to function self-
sufficiently. A planet community such as a permanent colony on Moon/
Mars/Venus, likewise. (Of course I'm talking about like in the old
days.) In case people outside your community turn against you. So,
yeah, I think a nation that can't feed itself is overpopulated,
probably.

> I recall some Asimov anecdote where someone was discussing with him the
> dystopia he had imagined for _The Caves of Steel_, and it hadn't occured
> to him that life in an enclosed mega-city would be perceived that way.

Does that mean that that Earth wasn't intended as a dystopia?

(And does that mean that Asimov hadn't read "The Machine Stops"?)

(Copyrighted till 2040 here in the United Kingdom, I think, so,
hyperlink not attempted.)

In sequels, some people were trying to get out from under the
agoraphobia, weren't they? Wasn't there a modest movement of
"Farmers"?

[Louann Miller]

Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote in news:j6hnpj$9oo$1
@reader1.panix.com:

>> William
>> (who is still trying to save up enough money for his cabin in the
>> woods)
>
> I've got that cabin in the woods -- well, in a cornfield -- and even
> with internet, it's not all it's cracked up to be. I'm lonely.

You two should do a real estate deal.

Louann, house in a 28-acre field in easy-ish distance of a major
metropolis.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 10/5/11 9:58 AM, Remus Shepherd wrote:
> William F. Adams<will...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 4, 10:22?am, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>>> The most optimistic has it peaking at around 7.75 billion in 2025 or
>>>> so, others are 9.25 billion in 2065 or 14 billion and still trending
>>>> up in 2100.
>>>
>>> Why is the low estimate the optimistic one?
>
>> Because I'd like to live in a world where there are still untrammeled
>> spaces, and room to breathe, and space for non-industrial agriculture
>> and land costs are moderate enough that single-dwelling homes are an
>> affordable option for the majority of people.
>
>> William
>> (who is still trying to save up enough money for his cabin in the
>> woods)
>
> I've got that cabin in the woods -- well, in a cornfield -- and even
> with internet, it's not all it's cracked up to be. I'm lonely.
>

I've got 35 acres I'll happily sell to someone who wants to live in a
cabin in the woods. Bring your own generator, there's no electricity,
sewer, or water lines.



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Derek Lyons]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>Well... I think ideally a country should be able to function self-
>sufficiently.

That's called "autarky", and it can have... very interesting economic
problems.

[Derek Lyons]

"William F. Adams" <will...@aol.com> wrote:

>Because I'd like to live in a world where there are still untrammeled
>spaces, and room to breathe, and space for non-industrial agriculture
>and land costs are moderate enough that single-dwelling homes are an
>affordable option for the majority of people.

Land costs in much of the world aren't driven so much by lack of
availability so much as by so much of it being inconviently located
for the purpose of single family dwellings and/or so much not being
particularly desireable for said use.

[James Nicoll]

In article <4e8d8ee5....@news.supernews.com>,

Derek Lyons <fair...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>Well... I think ideally a country should be able to function self-
>>sufficiently.
>
>That's called "autarky", and it can have... very interesting economic
>problems.

Random example of a nation that is in no way self-sufficient: Singpore

Random example of a nation that tries very hard* to be self-sufficient,
complete with justifying ideology: North Korea



* Unsuccessfully.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <abd3e203-0b7e-4075...@n8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,

Hmm. Isn't your country one of the ones which is not food self-sufficient?
(Food rationing during the Battle of the Atlantic, bad times until the
corn laws were repealed etc..) Do you consider The UK overpouplated?

>
>> I recall some Asimov anecdote where someone was discussing with him the
>> dystopia he had imagined for _The Caves of Steel_, and it hadn't occured
>> to him that life in an enclosed mega-city would be perceived that way.
>
>Does that mean that that Earth wasn't intended as a dystopia?

Well, I guess having all that irradiated territory can't have been a
good thing, but I think Asimov saw the cities as kind of a larger New York,
and was mostly OK with that. I think Lyje and his wife have a pretty
happy urban middle class existence apart from the fallout of his Spacer case
and I don't recalls seeing abject poverty or misery (though it has been
a loooong time since I read). The place has its phobias and nuroses, but
it's not a dystopia IMHO.

>
>In sequels, some people were trying to get out from under the
>agoraphobia, weren't they? Wasn't there a modest movement of
>"Farmers"?

I don't recall specifically, though Lije was working on his agoraphobia.
(Also, I wouldn't count any books after the second one as being true to
the original conception).

[James Nicoll]

In article <4e8e8f3b....@news.supernews.com>,

Derek Lyons <fair...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"William F. Adams" <will...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Because I'd like to live in a world where there are still untrammeled
>>spaces, and room to breathe, and space for non-industrial agriculture
>>and land costs are moderate enough that single-dwelling homes are an
>>affordable option for the majority of people.
>
>Land costs in much of the world aren't driven so much by lack of
>availability so much as by so much of it being inconviently located
>for the purpose of single family dwellings and/or so much not being
>particularly desireable for said use.

My father used to muse about how cheap land was in Mato Grosso but
always came back to the main problem with said cheap land, which
was that it was in Mato Grosso. Even our first farm an hour north
of Waterloo turned out to be too much of a bother to commute from
so we ended up on a small farm 3 rural roads north of St Agatha.

[Derek Lyons]

her...@btinternet.com.invalid wrote:

>In article <4e8f6355....@news.supernews.com>,
> fair...@gmail.com (Derek Lyons) wrote:
>
>> her...@btinternet.com.invalid wrote:
>> >What is the population necessary to maintain the current level of
>> >technology?
>>
>> That is a debate that has, over the years, been repeated many times
>> with no significant conclusion reached.
>>
>> >Over the last forty years, the number of people in my speciality (which
>> >changed from time to time) tended to be two digits. A serious dose of
>> >food poisoning at a conference would have wiped out the world-wide skill
>> >base.
>>
>> Is your specialty necessary to maintain the current level of
>> technology? Or, to put it another way, I suspect specialties that
>> small are research specialties rather than operational ones.
>
>It was usually a speciality that was just getting started. I usually
>retrained when the number of specialists reached three digits and
>customers could start to be choosy.

But that's not a situation of "maintaining the current level of
technology", that's "expanding the current share of a given
technology/expanding the economy". Plus, if you could retrain, that
implies that others could too - probably by increasing their focus
from a more general field. And if you can do this more than twice in
your career, that it seems to me that it wasn't all that special in
the first place - it sounds more like technological churn than
technological progress. (I.E. IT.)

>My underlying point is that some niche specialities are desperately
>needed but there are very small numbers of experts. If population
>declines, at what point does technology get lost?

Which goes back to my original, and unanswered, question - are these
tiny specialties actually required to maintain the current level of
technology? By which I mean a given economy may only need a half a
dozen experts in designing and building plants to produce transparent
steel - but it's not clear that sudden lack will cause civilization
and/or technology to crash.

[Ilya2]

> I'm also thinking of "Half Past Human", but I don't know the number that
> was given for the population.  The human race had been bred into small
> little people known as "nebishes" who didn't need as much in the way of
> resources as regular people.

IIRC, total population in "Half Past Human" is close to a trillion.
However their small size was not the major factor -- Nebbishes were
about half the mass of normal adult, -- their minds were. Nebbishes
simply were not bothered by crowding, and did not suffer any adverse
psychological effects from being perpetually in someone else's space.

They would make ideal submarine crews.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <4e8e8f3b....@news.supernews.com>,

fair...@gmail.com (Derek Lyons) wrote:

>
> Land costs in much of the world aren't driven so much by lack of
> availability so much as by so much of it being inconviently located
> for the purpose of single family dwellings and/or so much not being
> particularly desireable for said use.

Location, location and location. First location is near centers of
employment.

--
Ignorance is no protection against reality. -- Paul J Gans

[Peter Trei]

On Oct 5, 9:55 am, her...@btinternet.com.invalid wrote:
> In article <4e8f6355.187376...@news.supernews.com>,

I (and I think others) would really appreciate if you could give
examples of some of these specialties.

pt

[David DeLaney]

Joseph Nebus <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>>... sometime before the year 2000.
>
>>Limits to Growth and Population Bomb and some (titles forgotten)
>>Asimov novels were all pretty clear that the end was coming within
>>thirty years.
>
> Hm. I don't recall any Asimov Overpopulated Hells, with the
>exception of the irradiated Earth everyone supposed was survivor of
>an atomic war, or any where Earth reaches that hopeless overpopulated
>state within thirty years. Which obvious cases am I overlooking?

Don't know, but I suspect a direct connection to the immediacy of fusion
reactors (and flying-car popular usage).

> My rough estimate is that an 'Overpopulated' world is one that
>has twice the population that the Earth had when the person making the
>estimate was a teenager, and 'Impossibly Overpopulated' occurs when
>the planet has three times that teen-baseline population.

Ah, another use for the Golden Age of SF!

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>> I recall some Asimov anecdote where someone was discussing with him the
>> dystopia he had imagined for _The Caves of Steel_, and it hadn't occured
>> to him that life in an enclosed mega-city would be perceived that way.
>
>Does that mean that that Earth wasn't intended as a dystopia?

It wasn't; remember, Asimov lived in NYC...

>(And does that mean that Asimov hadn't read "The Machine Stops"?)

(That I don't know.)

[David DeLaney]

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>It's not full of people, actually. It's more like surprisingly empty
>of people, given the apparent floor area on the place. It's a desolate,
>empty world of echoing corridors.

And an occasional sign on the wall reading "Beware of the Tumithak".

[David DeLaney]

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
>Then there was that Farmer story where the problem is solved by
>freezing everyone and thawing them one day out of seven.

Stories; Dayworld, Dayworld Rebel, Dayworld Breakup, and possibly some shorts
set in it that I don't know about.

Also see Orson Scott Card's Capitol/soma series.

[David DeLaney]

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:

>Cryptoengineer <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Now we are 7 ... billion.
>

>What population level would you not consider overpopulation?

There's nobody else living inside my apartment, so I don't think we're there
yet.

[Paul Colquhoun]

Thanks. It had never occurred to me to do those calculations when I was
reading the books.

Hmm, what could I do on my personal square kilometer of floor space?
Call it 25 floors, each 200 by 200 meters. Wow! That is a BIG building.

Given unlimited power, hydroponics should generate most of my food
requirements, or at least a good supply of luxury food items.
Have a floor or 2 for recycling waste. Still leaves lots of room for
a running track, full gym, swimming pool (uses 2 floors worth of space),
and a luxurious apartment.

[Robert Carnegie]

Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <abd3e203-0b7e-4075...@n8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >On Oct 4, 10:46�pm, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
> >> In article
> ><74676b3a-f956-4f7e-bbb7-1e163825b...@fx14g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> >> Robert Carnegie �<rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Imperial Trantor depended on imports, I think - food, maybe fissile
> >> >material? It's completely urban and full of people.
> >>
> >> But is it overpopulated? I mean New York City relies on food and
> >> other imports. So do a number of countries.
> >
> >Well... I think ideally a country should be able to function self-
> >sufficiently. A planet community such as a permanent colony on Moon/
> >Mars/Venus, likewise. (Of course I'm talking about like in the old
> >days.) In case people outside your community turn against you. So,
> >yeah, I think a nation that can't feed itself is overpopulated,
> >probably.
>
> Hmm. Isn't your country one of the ones which is not food self-sufficient?
> (Food rationing during the Battle of the Atlantic, bad times until the
> corn laws were repealed etc..) Do you consider The UK overpouplated?

Production nowadays is a lot more efficient; modernised.

Up to the Second World War, we had a fruitful Empire. The motherland
may have gotten lazy.

[Howard Brazee]

On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 09:30:28 +1100, Paul Colquhoun
<newsp...@andor.dropbear.id.au> wrote:

> At its height. Trantor has 75 million square miles of land, all so
>| built up it is possible to go years without going outside. From roof
>| to basement is about two kilometers. Assuming one floor per 10 meters,
>| that's 200 floors or a total area of 15 billion square miles. 40 billion
>| over 15 billion works out to 2 2/3rds people per square mile or fewer
>| people per unit area than Mongolia or the Sahara.
>
>
>Thanks. It had never occurred to me to do those calculations when I was
>reading the books.
>
>Hmm, what could I do on my personal square kilometer of floor space?
>Call it 25 floors, each 200 by 200 meters. Wow! That is a BIG building.

Do you really think very many people have that average? Or would
farmers and the wealthy and the state and businesses and
infrastructure have most of it, leaving everybody else to fight over
the rest?

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Robert Carnegie]

On Oct 5, 11:30 pm, Paul Colquhoun <newspos...@andor.dropbear.id.au>
wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Oct 2011 12:42:47 +0000 (UTC), James Nicoll <jdnic...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> | In article <slrnj8nvtq.ejg.newspos...@andor.dropbear.id.au>,
> | Paul Colquhoun  <newspos...@andor.dropbear.id.au> wrote:

> |>On Wed, 5 Oct 2011 02:46:48 +0000 (UTC), James Nicoll|><jdnic...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> |>| In article
> |><74676b3a-f956-4f7e-bbb7-1e163825b...@fx14g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

I was wondering how much of it would be used for the septic tank.

All those floors help to mess up the arithmetic... so I'm going to
propose that most of that space is zoned for retail, and the
redundancy of malls is another early sign of the Empire's problems.

[James Nicoll]

In article <b8tp87h65kap5vnh4...@4ax.com>,

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 09:30:28 +1100, Paul Colquhoun
><newsp...@andor.dropbear.id.au> wrote:
>
>> At its height. Trantor has 75 million square miles of land, all so
>>| built up it is possible to go years without going outside. From roof
>>| to basement is about two kilometers. Assuming one floor per 10 meters,
>>| that's 200 floors or a total area of 15 billion square miles. 40 billion
>>| over 15 billion works out to 2 2/3rds people per square mile or fewer
>>| people per unit area than Mongolia or the Sahara.
>>
>>
>>Thanks. It had never occurred to me to do those calculations when I was
>>reading the books.
>>
>>Hmm, what could I do on my personal square kilometer of floor space?
>>Call it 25 floors, each 200 by 200 meters. Wow! That is a BIG building.
>
>Do you really think very many people have that average? Or would
>farmers and the wealthy and the state and businesses and
>infrastructure have most of it, leaving everybody else to fight over
>the rest?

Farmers? This is Trantor!

I expect a surprising percentage of it was taken up with filing
cabinets.

[Wayne Throop]

::: At its height. Trantor has 75 million square miles of land, all so

::: built up it is possible to go years without going outside. From
::: roof to basement is about two kilometers. Assuming one floor per 10
::: meters, that's 200 floors or a total area of 15 billion square
::: miles. 40 billion over 15 billion works out to 2 2/3rds people per
::: square mile or fewer people per unit area than Mongolia or the
::: Sahara.

: Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net>
: Do you really think very many people have that average? Or would

: farmers and the wealthy and the state and businesses and
: infrastructure have most of it, leaving everybody else to fight over
: the rest?

Let's assume that one person had 99 percent of it. The rest would
still have 10,000 square meters each (if I'm doing the arithmetic
correctly).

Of course, there could still be sufficient inequities for there to be lots
of people are packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes, contestants
in a suicidal race. But things'd have to be really *really* skewed.

Many miles away, something crawls from the slime
At the bottom of a dark Scottish lake

--- Synchronicity II

There's a rich man sleeping on a golden bed
There's a skeleton choking on a crust of bread

--- King of Pain

"Shiny!" --- Jayne Cobb

[Greg Goss]

d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:

>Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>> I recall some Asimov anecdote where someone was discussing with him the
>>> dystopia he had imagined for _The Caves of Steel_, and it hadn't occured
>>> to him that life in an enclosed mega-city would be perceived that way.
>>
>>Does that mean that that Earth wasn't intended as a dystopia?
>
>It wasn't; remember, Asimov lived in NYC...

I think it was intended to be a mild dystopia. He wrote one book of
an overly closed-in society, contrasted with a society with other
phobias. The idea was that Bailey's son (and subsequent descendants)
would populate the galaxy, superseding a stagnant Earth and a stagnant
70 (?) robot-addicted worlds.
--
"If the Gods Had Meant Us to Vote They Would Have Given Us Candidates" (Jim Hightower)

[Walter Bushell]

In article <j6ith8$3ev$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> Farmers? This is Trantor!
>
> I expect a surprising percentage of it was taken up with filing
> cabinets.

Given a galaxy full of planets, over thousands of years, at the density
of habitable planets in the Galaxy even microfilmed the wedding records
would take a major part of the space.

[Joy Beeson]

On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 12:40:11 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

> I've got 35 acres I'll happily sell to someone who wants to live in a
> cabin in the woods. Bring your own generator, there's no electricity,
> sewer, or water lines.

Sounds like the cabin where I spent many happy hours as a child. Never
occurred to anybody to install a noisy generator; the icebox worked
fine, and we went to bed at sunset.

Where's the nearest lake?

Is there a good hill to build into?

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net

[Derek Lyons]

Why? Submarines aren't particularly crowded even if they are quite
cramped.

[James Nicoll]

In article <4e8f3c48....@news.supernews.com>,

Derek Lyons <fair...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Ilya2 <il...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>>> I'm also thinking of "Half Past Human", but I don't know the number that
>>> was given for the population.  The human race had been bred into small
>>> little people known as "nebishes" who didn't need as much in the way of
>>> resources as regular people.
>>
>>IIRC, total population in "Half Past Human" is close to a trillion.
>>However their small size was not the major factor -- Nebbishes were
>>about half the mass of normal adult, -- their minds were. Nebbishes
>>simply were not bothered by crowding, and did not suffer any adverse
>>psychological effects from being perpetually in someone else's space.
>>
>>They would make ideal submarine crews.
>
>Why? Submarines aren't particularly crowded even if they are quite
>cramped.

As I recall, a lot of the Nebbishes lived on the ragged edge of
starvation, with the cognitive impairments that can involve. I think
even if you did crew a sub with them, the real heavy lifting would
have to be done by the AIs running everything.

[her...@btinternet.com.invalid]

In article
<af37a2c5-20aa-4ad4...@k10g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,

For your amusement, two of the areas:

Architectural design of a high performance real-time concurrent system.
The design had to be provably correct.

Security architecture of an extremely large-scale distributed system.
The system was certain to be under heavy hacker attack.

What characterised the early days was nobody knew how to do it, and you
had to muddle through. Ever go to bed knowing that there was no one to
ask the question you were wrestling with (and losing to)?

[her...@btinternet.com.invalid]

In article <4e8f8ff9....@news.supernews.com>,

It depends on how you train your experts. If your culture usually uses
advanced taught courses, you're in much better shape than if your
culture relies on apprenticeships.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:20:54 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
wrote:

>In article <j6ith8$3ev$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> Farmers? This is Trantor!
>>
>> I expect a surprising percentage of it was taken up with filing
>> cabinets.
>
>Given a galaxy full of planets, over thousands of years, at the density
>of habitable planets in the Galaxy even microfilmed the wedding records
>would take a major part of the space.

Microfilmed? How quaint!

Cheers - Jaimie
--
human /mia'ow/ n.: Combination can-opener and heated chair-cover

[Walter Bushell]

In article <if4r87lbb0admtmu2...@4ax.com>,

Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:20:54 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <j6ith8$3ev$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> > jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> >
> >> Farmers? This is Trantor!
> >>
> >> I expect a surprising percentage of it was taken up with filing
> >> cabinets.
> >
> >Given a galaxy full of planets, over thousands of years, at the density
> >of habitable planets in the Galaxy even microfilmed the wedding records
> >would take a major part of the space.
>
> Microfilmed? How quaint!
>
> Cheers - Jaimie

Well yes, but remember when the story was written and records are still
kept on it today.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 10/6/11 7:33 AM, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:20:54 -0400, Walter Bushell<pr...@panix.com>
> wrote:
>
>> In article<j6ith8$3ev$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>>> Farmers? This is Trantor!
>>>
>>> I expect a surprising percentage of it was taken up with filing
>>> cabinets.
>>
>> Given a galaxy full of planets, over thousands of years, at the density
>> of habitable planets in the Galaxy even microfilmed the wedding records
>> would take a major part of the space.
>
> Microfilmed? How quaint!

As James said above, THIS! IS! TRAAANTOR!

Microfilm was the wave of the future in the past.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 10/5/11 11:21 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 12:40:11 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> I've got 35 acres I'll happily sell to someone who wants to live in a
>> cabin in the woods. Bring your own generator, there's no electricity,
>> sewer, or water lines.
>
> Sounds like the cabin where I spent many happy hours as a child. Never
> occurred to anybody to install a noisy generator; the icebox worked
> fine, and we went to bed at sunset.
>
> Where's the nearest lake?

Lake I dunno. Checking Google and Mapquest it looks like it's sort of
midway between the Great Sacandaga Lake and Saratoga Lake. There's a
pond and a small stream on the property in which I've seen small trout.

>
> Is there a good hill to build into?
>

This is the Adirondack foothills, there's nothing BUT hills! Made of
granite and with tumbled rock and soil from glacial deposits, of course.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <j6k59m$gg$2...@dont-email.me>,

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

> On 10/6/11 7:33 AM, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
> > On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:20:54 -0400, Walter Bushell<pr...@panix.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> In article<j6ith8$3ev$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> >> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> >>
> >>> Farmers? This is Trantor!
> >>>
> >>> I expect a surprising percentage of it was taken up with filing
> >>> cabinets.
> >>
> >> Given a galaxy full of planets, over thousands of years, at the density
> >> of habitable planets in the Galaxy even microfilmed the wedding records
> >> would take a major part of the space.
> >
> > Microfilmed? How quaint!
>
> As James said above, THIS! IS! TRAAANTOR!
>
> Microfilm was the wave of the future in the past.

And still good for archivial purposes. How long can digital documents
survive? Already it's expensive and difficult to read data fro 5.5 inch
floppies. How much longer will CDs survive?

[Peter Trei]

On Oct 6, 6:38 am, her...@btinternet.com.invalid wrote:
> In article

> <af37a2c5-20aa-4ad4-8086-2f4111949...@k10g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,

Neat! Folk are still dealing with these problems. I'm currently doing
somewhat related work on an (open) DARPA project.

pt

[Howard Brazee]

On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 08:08:25 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
wrote:

>> Microfilm was the wave of the future in the past.
>
>And still good for archivial purposes. How long can digital documents
>survive? Already it's expensive and difficult to read data fro 5.5 inch
>floppies. How much longer will CDs survive?

If I wanted my work to survive, digital certainly beats microfilm.

[Joseph Nebus]

In <ehbr87dg60v99eei8...@4ax.com> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> writes:

>On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 08:08:25 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
>wrote:

>>> Microfilm was the wave of the future in the past.
>>
>>And still good for archivial purposes. How long can digital documents
>>survive? Already it's expensive and difficult to read data fro 5.5 inch
>>floppies. How much longer will CDs survive?

>If I wanted my work to survive, digital certainly beats microfilm.

The stuff I want to last I put in files called 'ReadMe', so
the bits won't be worn down by use.

--
http://nebusresearch.wordpress.com/ Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jerry Brown]

On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 08:08:25 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>

wrote:

>In article <j6k59m$gg$2...@dont-email.me>,
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/6/11 7:33 AM, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
>> > On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:20:54 -0400, Walter Bushell<pr...@panix.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article<j6ith8$3ev$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>> >> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Farmers? This is Trantor!
>> >>>
>> >>> I expect a surprising percentage of it was taken up with filing
>> >>> cabinets.
>> >>
>> >> Given a galaxy full of planets, over thousands of years, at the density
>> >> of habitable planets in the Galaxy even microfilmed the wedding records
>> >> would take a major part of the space.
>> >
>> > Microfilmed? How quaint!
>>
>> As James said above, THIS! IS! TRAAANTOR!
>>
>> Microfilm was the wave of the future in the past.
>
>And still good for archivial purposes. How long can digital documents
>survive? Already it's expensive and difficult to read data fro 5.5 inch
>floppies. How much longer will CDs survive?

That occurred to me, but now that I think about it, they've done a
pretty good job of maintaining backwards compatibility for each new
12cm disk format. My DVD player can play DVDs and CDs, and my BluRay
player can play BDs, DVDs and CDs. The only things I can think of
which don't work are a couple of CD-sized LaserDiscs (one of the them
is the trailer for Terminator II) I have from the mid nineties.

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

[Walter Bushell]

In article <c1jr871k308jbb2p0...@4ax.com>,

Not a long time. For archival storage the only long time proven ones
are stone or baked clay tablets. Oh, yes and paintings in deep caves.

[David DeLaney]

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:

>d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>It wasn't; remember, Asimov lived in NYC...
>
>I think it was intended to be a mild dystopia. He wrote one book of
>an overly closed-in society, contrasted with a society with other
>phobias. The idea was that Bailey's son (and subsequent descendants)
>would populate the galaxy, superseding a stagnant Earth and a stagnant
>70 (?) robot-addicted worlds.

Fifty, if I recall right. (With that last 51st one turning up in another book.)

[David DeLaney]

Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>And still good for archivial purposes. How long can digital documents
>survive? Already it's expensive and difficult to read data fro 5.5 inch
>floppies.

As well it should be, because most of them were 5.25" floppies.

I have a computer in the bedroom that can do it. I just haven't turned it
on in some years now.

[Brett Dunbar]

In message <j6hnpj$9oo$1...@reader1.panix.com>, Remus Shepherd
<re...@panix.com> writes
> The UN put out several different scenarios, including one where
>population peaks at about 8 billion in 2040 or so, then declines to 6
>billion by 2100. So continuous increases are not guaranteed, and there
>is hope. It's unlikely, though.

The population trends have fairly consistently matched the UNs low
estimate over the last few decades. The UN models include some
assumptions that appear to be incorrect and tend to exaggerate the
figures. One assumption that the birth rate would tend to converge on
replacement rates which implies a floor that doesn't seem to exist. When
birth rates drop below replacement they tend to stay there.
--
Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm
Livejournal http://brett-dunbar.livejournal.com/
Brett Dunbar

[Michael Stemper]

In article <j6des7$igk$1...@dont-email.me>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>On 10/3/11 5:33 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:

>> Now we are 7 ... billion.
>>
>> We're supposed to get human number 7,000,000,000 somewhere around
>> Halloween. That was the population of the Earth in 'Make Room! Make
>> Room!',
>> filmed as 'Soylent Green'.
>>
>> What SF stories have dealt with gross overpopulation? Which one
>> posited the highest population for the planet?

Over-population stories pretty much took over the niche once filled
by World War III (and aftermath) stories, sometime in the late 1960s.

> There was an (I think) Asimov story, with the numbers in the trillions,
>in which the main character is someone keeping alive the last non-human
>animals -- a zoo with things like Guinea Pigs and things like that. It
>concludes with them ordering him to get rid of the animals because they
>take up the resources of at least ten people. He follows his orders and
>then kills himself, IIRC.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2430_A.D.>

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Economists have correctly predicted seven of the last three recessions.

[Michael Stemper]

In article <9f3hh1...@mid.individual.net>, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) writes:
>In article <abd3e203-0b7e-4075...@n8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>On Oct 4, 10:46 pm, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:

>>> In article <74676b3a-f956-4f7e-bbb7-1e163825b...@fx14g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, Robert Carnegie  <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:

>>> I recall some Asimov anecdote where someone was discussing with him the
>>> dystopia he had imagined for _The Caves of Steel_, and it hadn't occured
>>> to him that life in an enclosed mega-city would be perceived that way.
>>
>>Does that mean that that Earth wasn't intended as a dystopia?
>

>Well, I guess having all that irradiated territory can't have been a
>good thing,

I don't believe that such was ever mentioned in _The Caves of Steel_.

It was mentioned in _The Stars Like Dust_ and _Pebble in the Sky_.
But, there's nothing about population in Stars, and (IIRC) the Earth
in Pebble is fairly low-population. Didn't Chica contain all of about
50,000 people?

> I think Lyje and his wife have a pretty
>happy urban middle class existence apart from the fallout of his Spacer case

There was always the risk of being unclassified. That wasn't related
due to population, however. It was due to the socialistic nature of
the society itself.

[Michael Stemper]

In article <dG14XKyV...@meden.invalid>, Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> writes:
>In message <74676b3a-f956-4f7e...@fx14g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes

>>Imperial Trantor depended on imports, I think - food, maybe fissile
>>material? It's completely urban and full of people.
>>

>>(I've been vaguely trying to remember who - maybe "Doc" Smith - had
>>Earth importing crude oil from other planets, maybe other systems.)
>
>E.E. Smith, "Subspace Explorers".

That also featured fresh milk brought daily from Lactia to Earth,
where it was then delivered house-to-house by milkmen in white uniforms.

[Michael Stemper]

In article <j6hjc7$qbl$1...@reader1.panix.com>, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>In article <slrnj8nvtq.e...@andor.dropbear.id.au>, Paul Colquhoun <newsp...@andor.dropbear.id.au> wrote:
>>On Wed, 5 Oct 2011 02:46:48 +0000 (UTC), James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:

>>| In article <74676b3a-f956-4f7e...@fx14g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>>|>Imperial Trantor depended on imports, I think - food, maybe fissile
>>|>material? It's completely urban and full of people.
>>|

>>| It's not full of people, actually. It's more like surprisingly empty
>>| of people, given the apparent floor area on the place. It's a desolate,
>>| empty world of echoing corridors.
>>
>>When? During the height of the Empire? Or much later, when the Second
>>Foundation representatives visit, after the collapse of the Empire?

>>
>At its height. Trantor has 75 million square miles of land, all so
>built up it is possible to go years without going outside. From roof
>to basement is about two kilometers. Assuming one floor per 10 meters,

Which, I hasten to point out, is *really* high ceilings.

[Michael Stemper]

In article <proto-AD0DE1....@news.panix.com>, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> writes:
>In article <j6ith8$3ev$1...@reader1.panix.com>, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

>> Farmers? This is Trantor!
>>
>> I expect a surprising percentage of it was taken up with filing
>> cabinets.
>
>Given a galaxy full of planets, over thousands of years, at the density
>of habitable planets in the Galaxy even microfilmed the wedding records
>would take a major part of the space.

Until the mass of the records got so large that Trantor finally
underwent gravitational collapse, leading to the central black
hole that the Galaxy has in post-1980 Foundation books.

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>

Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.

[Michael Stemper]

Doessn't really matter. I have files on my computer that have survived
being moved from a Cyber 830 (NOS) to an SGI box (Irix) to a P-III (DR-DOS)
through something else (Win 98) to my current Athalon (Ubuntu). The
corners have gotten rounded off some of the bits, but the code still
compiles (except for the stuff that was in CDC Fortran), the scripts still
run, and the emails are still readable, as are the first digital pictures
that I took in 1998.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <slrnj8ria...@gatekeeper.vic.com>,

d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:

> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> >And still good for archivial purposes. How long can digital documents
> >survive? Already it's expensive and difficult to read data fro 5.5 inch
> >floppies.
>
> As well it should be, because most of them were 5.25" floppies.
>
> I have a computer in the bedroom that can do it. I just haven't turned it
> on in some years now.
>
> Dave

But you may have some trouble getting the data off that old machine into
the modern system. And depending on which machine wrote the disks you
may have to align the head to read them. OTGH, how many disks from that
era are still readable at all?

[Wayne Throop]

:: At its height. Trantor has 75 million square miles of land, all so

:: built up it is possible to go years without going outside. From roof
:: to basement is about two kilometers. Assuming one floor per 10
:: meters,

: mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper)
: Which, I hasten to point out, is *really* high ceilings.

Oh I dunno. It's less than twice the height of the ceilings
that my wife prefers, in our previous house. In the center anyways.
And then you gotta expect Brazil-like utility conduits would fill
half of it. So you're left with what, a puny five meters or so.
Barely room to stand up if you happen to transform to the Ang Lee Hulk.

Of course, to prevent that, they doubtless put G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate
in the air supply... and then wondered why Trantor fell.
Worse than lead for romans.

[Greg Goss]

d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:

>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>>It wasn't; remember, Asimov lived in NYC...
>>
>>I think it was intended to be a mild dystopia. He wrote one book of
>>an overly closed-in society, contrasted with a society with other
>>phobias. The idea was that Bailey's son (and subsequent descendants)
>>would populate the galaxy, superseding a stagnant Earth and a stagnant
>>70 (?) robot-addicted worlds.
>
>Fifty, if I recall right. (With that last 51st one turning up in another book.)

It's too bad that the US was still stuck at "48 states" at the time,
or the count of fifty could mean something deeply metaphorical that I
never realized until just now.
--
"If the Gods Had Meant Us to Vote They Would Have Given Us Candidates" (Jim Hightower)