Science Fiction Writer John C. Wright Becomes A Christian
words of truth
John C. Wright on becoming a Christian
John C. Wright, author of the best science fiction series of the
millennium (to date) - The Golden Age trilogy - as well as one of the
most interesting fantasy series - Everness - has become a Christian.
He appears in the comments box of an SF Signal review. It's so
interesting, I'm going to reproduce a portion at length, but I suggest
you read the rest too, plus his books!:
My conversion was in two parts: a natural part and a supernatural part.
Here is the natural part: first, over a period of two years my hatred
toward Christianity eroded due to my philosophical inquiries.
Rest assured, I take the logical process of philosophy very seriously,
and I am impatient with anyone who is not a rigorous and trained
thinker. Reason is the tool men use to determine if their statements
about reality are valid: there is no other. Those who do not or cannot
reason are little better than slaves, because their lives are
controlled by the ideas of other men, ideas they have not examined.
To my surprise and alarm, I found that, step by step, logic drove me to
conclusions no modern philosophy shared, but only this ancient and (as
I saw it then) corrupt and superstitious foolery called the Church.
Each time I followed the argument fearlessly where it lead, it kept
leading me, one remorseless rational step at a time, to a position the
Church had been maintaining for more than a thousand years. That
haunted me.
Second, I began to notice how shallow, either simply optimistic or
simply pessimistic, other philosophies and views of life were.
The public conduct of my fellow atheists was so lacking in sobriety and
gravity that I began to wonder why, if we atheists had a hammerlock on
truth, so much of what we said was pointless or naive. I remember
listening to a fellow atheist telling me how wonderful the world would
be once religion was swept into the dustbin of history, and I realized
the chap knew nothing about history. If atheism solved all human woe,
then the Soviet Union would have been an empire of joy and dancing
bunnies, instead of the land of corpses.
I would listen to my fellow atheists, and they would sound as innocent
of any notion of what real human life was like as the Man from Mars who
has never met human beings or even heard clear rumors of them. Then I
would read something written by Christian men of letters, Tolkien,
Lewis, or G.K. Chesterton, and see a solid understanding of the joys
and woes of human life. They were mature men.
I would look at the rigorous logic of St. Thomas Aquinas, the
complexity and thoroughness of his reasoning, and compare that to the
scattered and mentally incoherent sentimentality of some poseur like
Nietzsche or Sartre. I can tell the difference between a rigorous
argument and shrill psychological flatulence. I can see the difference
between a dwarf and a giant.
My wife is a Christian and is extraordinary patient, logical, and
philosophical. For years I would challenge and condemn her beliefs,
battering the structure of her conclusions with every argument,
analogy, and evidence I could bring to bear. I am a very argumentative
man, and I am as fell and subtle as a serpent in debate. All my arts
failed against her. At last I was forced to conclude that, like
non-Euclidian geometry, her world-view logically followed from its
axioms (although the axioms were radically mystical, and I rejected
them with contempt). Her persistence compared favorably to the behavior
of my fellow atheists, most of whom cannot utter any argument more
mentally alert than a silly ad Hominem attack. Once again, I saw that I
was confronting a mature and serious world-view, not merely a tissue of
fables and superstitions.
Third, a friend of mine asked me what evidence, if any, would be
sufficient to convince me that the supernatural existed. This question
stumped me. My philosophy at the time excluded the contemplation of the
supernatural axiomatically: by definition (my definition) even the word
"super-natural" was a contradiction in terms. Logic then said that, if
my conclusions were definitional, they were circular. I was assuming
the conclusion of the subject matter in dispute.
Now, my philosophy at the time was as rigorous and exact as 35 years of
study could make it (I started philosophy when I was seven). This meant
there was no point for reasonable doubt in the foundational structure
of my axioms, definitions, and common notions. This meant that,
logically, even if God existed, and manifested Himself to me, my
philosophy would force me to reject the evidence of my senses, and
dismiss any manifestations as a coincidence, hallucination, or dream.
Under this hypothetical, my philosophy would force me to an exactly
wrong conclusion due to structural errors of assumption.
A philosopher (and I mean a serious and manly philosopher, not a
sophomoric boy) does not use philosophy to flinch away from truth or
hide from it. A philosophy composed of structural false-to-facts
assumptions is insupportable.
A philosopher goes where the truth leads, and has no patience with mere
emotion.
But it was impossible, logically impossible, that I should ever believe
in such nonsense as to believe in the supernatural. It would be a
miracle to get me to believe in miracles.
So I prayed. "Dear God, I know (because I can prove it with the
certainty that a geometer can prove opposite angles are equal) that you
do not exist. Nonetheless, as a scholar, I am forced to entertain the
hypothetical possibility that I am mistaken. So just in case I am
mistaken, please reveal yourself to me in some fashion that will prove
your case. If you do not answer, I can safely assume that either you do
not care whether I believe in you, or that you have no power to produce
evidence to persuade me. The former argues you not beneficent, the
latter not omnipotent: in either case unworthy of worship. If you do
not exist, this prayer is merely words in the air, and I loose nothing
but a bit of my dignity. Thanking you in advance for your kind
cooperation in this matter, John Wright."
I had a heart attack two days later. God obviously has a sense of humor
as well as a sense of timing.
Now for the supernatural part.
My wife called someone from her Church, which is a denomination that
practices healing through prayer. My wife read a passage from their
writings, and the pain vanished. If this was a coincidence, then, by
God, I could use more coincidences like that in my life.
Feeling fit, I nonetheless went to the hospital, so find out what had
happened to me. The diagnosis was grave, and a quintuple bypass heart
surgery was ordered. So I was in the hospital for a few days.
Those were the happiest days of my life. A sense of peace and
confidence, a peace that passes all understanding, like a field of
energy entered my body. I grew aware of a spiritual dimension of
reality of which I had hitherto been unaware. It was like a man born
blind suddenly receiving sight.
The Truth to which my lifetime as a philosopher had been devoted turned
out to be a living thing. It turned and looked at me. Something from
beyond the reach of time and space, more fundamental than reality,
reached across the universe and broke into my soul and changed me. This
was not a case of defense and prosecution laying out evidence for my
reason to pick through: I was altered down to the root of my being.
It was like falling in love. If you have not been in love, I cannot
explain it. If you have, you will raise a glass with me in toast.
Naturally, I was overjoyed. First, I discovered that the death sentence
under which all life suffers no longer applied to me. The governor, so
to speak, had phoned. Second, imagine how puffed up with pride you'd
be to find out you were the son of Caesar, and all the empire would be
yours. How much more, then, to find out you were the child of God?
I was also able to perform, for the first time in my life, the act
which I had studied philosophy all my life to perform, which is, to put
aside all fear of death. The Roman Stoics, whom I so admire, speak
volumes about this philosophical fortitude. But their lessons could not
teach me this virtue. The blessing of the Holy Spirit could and did
impart it to me, as a gift. So the thing I've been seeking my whole
life was now mine.
Then, just to make sure I was flooded with evidence, I received three
visions like Scrooge being visited by three ghosts. I was not drugged
or semiconscious, I was perfectly alert and in my right wits.
It was not a dream. I have had dreams every night of my life. I know
what a dream is. It was not a hallucination. I know someone who suffers
from hallucinations, and I know the signs. Those signs were not present
here.
Then, just to make even more sure that I was flooded with overwhelming
evidence, I had a religious experience. This is separate from the
visions, and took place several days after my release from the
hospital, when my health was moderately well. I was not taking any
pain-killers, by the way, because I found that prayer could banish pain
in moments.
During this experience, I became aware of the origin of all thought,
the underlying oneness of the universe, the nature of time: the paradox
of determinism and free will was resolved for me. I saw and experienced
part of the workings of a mind infinitely superior to mine, a mind able
to count every atom in the universe, filled with paternal love and
jovial good humor. The cosmos created by the thought of this mind was
as intricate as a symphony, with themes and reflections repeating
themselves forward and backward through time: prophecy is the awareness
that a current theme is the foreshadowing of the same theme destined to
emerge with greater clarity later. A prophet is one who is in tune, so
to speak, with the music of the cosmos.
The illusionary nature of pain, and the logical impossibility of death,
were part of the things I was shown.
Now, as far as these experiences go, they are not unique. They are not
even unusual. More people have had religious experiences than have seen
the far side of the moon. Dogmas disagree, but mystics are strangely (I
am tempted to say mystically) in agreement.
The things I was shown have echoes both in pagan and Christian
tradition, both Eastern and Western (although, with apologies to my
pagan friends, I see that Christianity is the clearest expression of
these themes, and also has a logical and ethical character other
religions expressions lack).
Further, the world view implied by taking this vision seriously (1)
gives supernatural sanction to conclusions only painfully reached by
logic (2) supports and justifies a mature rather than simplistic
world-view (3) fits in with the majority traditions not merely of the
West, but also, in a limited way, with the East.
As a side issue, the solution of various philosophical conundrums, like
the problem of the one and the many, mind-body duality, determinism and
indeterminism, and so on, is an added benefit. If you are familiar with
such things, I follow the panentheist idealism of Bishop Berkeley; and,
no, Mr. Johnson does not refute him merely by kicking a stone.
>From that time to this, I have had prayers answered and seen miracles:
each individually could be explained away as a coincidence by a
skeptic, but not taken as a whole. From that time to this, I continue
to be aware of the Holy Spirit within me, like feeling a heartbeat. It
is a primary impression coming not through the medium of the senses: an
intuitive axiom, like the knowledge of one's own self-being.
This, then, is the final answer to your question: it would not be
rational for me to doubt something of which I am aware on a primary and
fundamental level.
Occam's razor cuts out hallucination or dream as a likely explanation
for my experiences. In order to fit these experiences into an atheist
framework, I would have to resort to endless ad hoc explanations: this
lacks the elegance of geometers and parsimony of philosophers.
I would also have to assume all the great thinkers of history were
fools. While I was perfectly content to support this belief back in my
atheist days, this is a flattering conceit difficult to maintain
seriously.
On a pragmatic level, I am somewhat more useful to my fellow man than
before, and certainly more charitable. If it is a daydream, why wake me
up? My neighbors will not thank you if I stop believing in the mystical
brotherhood of man.
Besides, the atheist non-god is not going to send me to non-hell for my
lapse of non-faith if it should turn out that I am mistaken.
What's that quote about conversion stories and love stories being the
same thing?
Denis Loubet
"words of truth" <wordso...@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134859548....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.idlefellows.com/speculativecatholic/2005/12/john-c-wright-on-becoming-christian.html
>
>
> John C. Wright on becoming a Christian
>
>
> John C. Wright, author of the best science fiction series of the
> millennium (to date) - The Golden Age trilogy - as well as one of the
> most interesting fantasy series - Everness - has become a Christian.
Never heard of him.
--
Denis Loubet
dlo...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
Gene Ward Smith
Denis Loubet wrote:
> > John C. Wright, author of the best science fiction series of the
> > millennium (to date) - The Golden Age trilogy - as well as one of the
> > most interesting fantasy series - Everness - has become a Christian.
>
> Never heard of him.
I guess that proves he's no good.
Mike Schilling
"Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote in message
news:1134865570....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I've never heard of him either, which casts at least some doubt on his being
the author of the best SF series of the millennium. *This* millennium,
anyway.
Abraxas
"Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote in message
news:1134865570....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
literature. Haven't seen any listings even in a best of 100 top science
fiction/fantasy posting.
Kurt Busiek
I've seen discussions of his books here on the newsgroup (in this case,
rec.arts.sf.written) and picked up one of his novels -- Orphans of
Somethingorother -- but haven't read it yet.
Judging from the discussion, the book sounds like imaginative fantasy
with a lot of erotic spankings of adolescents in it. How the series
will progress post-conversion, I couldn't say.
kdb
--
Read an ASTRO CITY story for FREE, at:
http://www.dccomics.com/features/astro/
Peter D. Tillman
"Denis Loubet" <dlo...@io.com> wrote:
> "words of truth" <wordso...@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> >http://www.idlefellows.com/speculativecatholic/2005/12/john-c-wright-on-becoming-christian.html
> >
> > John C. Wright on becoming a Christian
> >
> >
> > John C. Wright, author of the best science fiction series of the
> > millennium (to date) - The Golden Age trilogy - as well as one of the
> > most interesting fantasy series - Everness - has become a Christian.
>
> Never heard of him.
Never heard of "Denis Loubet" either.
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
>
> http://www.idlefellows.com/speculativecatholic/2005/12/john-c-wright-on-becoming-christian.html
>
> John C. Wright on becoming a Christian
>
> John C. Wright, author of the best science fiction series of the
> millennium (to date)
[snip]
Wrong. The best science FICTION writers are the proponents of
intelligent design. On the other hand, he has joined the ranks of some
of the greatest fiction and fantasy writers this world has known.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
If everything is coming your way then you're in the wrong lane.
Gene Ward Smith
Mike Schilling wrote:
> I've never heard of him either, which casts at least some doubt on his being
> the author of the best SF series of the millennium. *This* millennium,
> anyway.
You never heard of John C. Wright, or you never heard of Denis Loubet?
Gene Ward Smith
Kurt Busiek wrote:
> >> Haven't seen any reviews of this fellow, and I keep abreast of current
> > literature.
Obviously, you do no such thing.
> I've seen discussions of his books here on the newsgroup (in this case,
> rec.arts.sf.written) and picked up one of his novels -- Orphans of
> Somethingorother -- but haven't read it yet.
He's been discussed reasonably often on rec.arts.sf.written.
> Judging from the discussion, the book sounds like imaginative fantasy
> with a lot of erotic spankings of adolescents in it. How the series
> will progress post-conversion, I couldn't say.
Publishers Weekly says readers will be rewarded with mildly erotic
spanking scenes involving underage characters. I guess it depends on
what rewards you are after.
"At first glance, Wright's myth-infused fantasy looks like something
older Harry Potter fans might enjoy with its creaky British boarding
school setting and its five ageless orphans-Colin, Quentin, Victor,
Vanity and Amelia-each with a supernatural gift. But the underlying
theme of dominance and submission plus a fair amount of physics and
theology make this definitely a book for adults. A spanking scene
involving the precocious Amelia Armstrong Windrose, who can travel into
the fourth dimension, may offend some readers, but others will find it
playful. Wright (Mists of Everness) doesn't fully develop the
intriguing premise of these unusual students trapped in a school run by
Greek gods as hostages in a bizarre war, but presumably he'll do so in
later installments. Those who like sophisticated fantasy with a mild
erotic charge will be most rewarded."
Mike Schilling
"Kurt Busiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote in message
news:2005121717111577923-kurtbusiek@aolcomics...
> Judging from the discussion, the book sounds like imaginative fantasy with
> a lot of erotic spankings of adolescents in it.
When did Piers Anthony start using pseudonyms?
Enkidu
> John C. Wright on becoming a Christian
Who?
--
Enkidu AA#2165
http://www.musings.leaddogs.org/
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons,
sticks turning into snakes, food falling from the sky, people walking on
water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you say
that we are the ones that need help?
-- Jon Stoll
James Nicoll
RPG artist. Has own wikipedia entry (for what he does, not
just words).
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
David Johnston
wrote:
>
>"words of truth" <wordso...@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1134859548....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> http://www.idlefellows.com/speculativecatholic/2005/12/john-c-wright-on-becoming-christian.html
>>
>>
>> John C. Wright on becoming a Christian
>>
>>
>> John C. Wright, author of the best science fiction series of the
>> millennium (to date) - The Golden Age trilogy - as well as one of the
>> most interesting fantasy series - Everness - has become a Christian.
>
>Never heard of him.
>
He wrote the Golden Age as a rampant display of his objectivism. I
shudder to think what he'll write next as an objectivist Christian.
bg1...@apexmail.com
> http://www.idlefellows.com/speculativecatholic/2005/12/john-c-wright-on-becoming-christian.html
>
>
> John C. Wright on becoming a Christian
>
>
> John C. Wright, author of the best science fiction series of the
> millennium (to date) - The Golden Age trilogy - as well as one of the
> most interesting fantasy series - Everness - has become a Christian.
A fifth-rate sci-fi hack "finds god" so he can cash in on the
Tim La Hate fantasies. Quelle surprise.
Bob Dog
Atheist #153 = 1^3 + 5^3 + 3^3
EAC's chief cook and brainwasher
-----
"Sooner or later the despairing Churches will try to get
a world-alliance with something like Fascist tyranny to
check the growth of Atheism. It is their one hope."
- Joseph McCabe
Wilson Heydt
Paul Hovnanian P.E. <Pa...@Hovnanian.com> wrote:
>words of truth wrote:
>>
>> http://www.idlefellows.com/speculativecatholic/2005/12/john-c-wright-on-becoming-christian.html
>>
>> John C. Wright on becoming a Christian
>>
>> John C. Wright, author of the best science fiction series of the
>> millennium (to date)
>
>[snip]
>
>Wrong. The best science FICTION writers are the proponents of
>intelligent design.
[snip]
Nope. Those works are fantasy...and not even suspension of disbelief will
help them.
--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA
My dime, my opinions.
Gene Ward Smith
bg1...@apexmail.com wrote:
> A fifth-rate sci-fi hack "finds god" so he can cash in on the
> Tim La Hate fantasies. Quelle surprise.
Fifthe-rate would be Kevin J. Anderson. Wright is clearly some other
rate, but what rate is it?
By the way, speaking of hate fantasies, your theory that Wright plans
to cash in on the loony evangelical market seems to qualify. If you
want to make a story up based on no evidence, I'd try suggesting he's
going after the vast Christian Objectivist market. You know it's out
there. You just have to find it.
Rick Pollock
more convincing.
Andrew Plotkin
You don't remember my use of the line "...instead of writing an
ending, Wright pulls the decaying corpse of Ayn Rand out of his butt"?
I'm disappointed.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
I'm still thinking about what to put in this space.
Stewart Robert Hinsley
of truth <wordso...@hoshmail.com> writes
>
>Besides, the atheist non-god is not going to send me to non-hell for my
>lapse of non-faith if it should turn out that I am mistaken.
>
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
David Bilek
>bg1...@apexmail.com wrote:
>
>> A fifth-rate sci-fi hack "finds god" so he can cash in on the
>> Tim La Hate fantasies. Quelle surprise.
>
>Fifthe-rate would be Kevin J. Anderson. Wright is clearly some other
>rate, but what rate is it?
>
He actually has the writing talent of a first-rate author but the
ideological blinkers prevent him from living up to his potential.
-David
Woland99
"Death sentence does not apply to me anymore"....
That bloke can sure write God-inspired gibberish.
I recommend Prozac and long hikes in the
mountains. Before jumping headfirst and joining
the "lets rape the Earth" gang.
Sean O'Hara
>
> I've never heard of him either, which casts at least some doubt
> on his being the author of the best SF series of the millennium.
> *This* millennium, anyway.
>
There are still 995 years left in this millennium; the odds of you
having encountered the best SF series of it are vanishingly small.
Obviously this message comes from the future, and is a blatant
attempt to force John C. Wright to convert, a la R.C. Wilson's The
Chronoliths.
--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
There are more fools in the world than there are people.
-Heinrich Heine
Paul Duca
Paul
Malibu Skipper
> "words of truth" <wordso...@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1134859548....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>http://www.idlefellows.com/speculativecatholic/2005/12/john-c-wright-on-becoming-christian.html
>>
>>
>>John C. Wright on becoming a Christian
>>
>>
>>John C. Wright, author of the best science fiction series of the
>>millennium (to date) - The Golden Age trilogy - as well as one of the
>>most interesting fantasy series - Everness - has become a Christian.
>
>
> Never heard of him.
>
>
His books are nicely conceived, but generally pedantic and obvious in
execution. One of the Everness books, for instance, contains a entire
chapter in which the villians do pretty much nothing but drive around
cackling "Thank God for gun control! Now we can rule the world!"
In interviews, Wright tends to go on and on about how much better
educated and more intelligent he is than everybody else he knows.
Unfortunately, he is quite shy about giving evidence of this.
Gene Ward Smith
Malibu Skipper wrote:
> Wright used to be an Objectivist. Now he's a fundy. Big surprise.
We discussed this on rec.arts.sf.written a while back, and the claim
was made that he was never a believing, born-again Objectivist.
Mike Schilling
"Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote in message
news:1134933004.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
There's nothing worse than a heretical Objectivist.
Malibu Skipper
affiliation, but only by the content of his books. At any rate, he's
always struck me as somebody who was utterly convinced that whatever
ideas he held were right; so I'm not at all suprised by his religious
conversion.
John Pelan
Perhaps more floggings?
Cheers,
John
Sean O'Hara
>
>
How about a thirteen year old Objectivist who thinks he's the first
person in the world to discover Ayn Rand, and believes that he is a
Randian Ubermensch while those around him are too stupid to live?
Oh, wait, isn't that most Objectivists?
--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
Gretchen: Donnie Darko? What the hell kind of name is that? It's
like some sort of superhero or something.
Donnie: What makes you think I'm not?
-Donnie Darko
Malibu Skipper
> In the Year of the Cock, the Great and Powerful Mike Schilling declared:
>
>>
>> There's nothing worse than a heretical Objectivist.
>>
>
> How about a thirteen year old Objectivist who thinks he's the first
> person in the world to discover Ayn Rand, and believes that he is a
> Randian Ubermensch while those around him are too stupid to live?
>
> Oh, wait, isn't that most Objectivists?
>
erikc
wrote:
>words of truth wrote:
>>
>> http://www.idlefellows.com/speculativecatholic/2005/12/john-c-wright-on-becoming-christian.html
>>
>> John C. Wright on becoming a Christian
>>
>> John C. Wright, author of the best science fiction series of the
>> millennium (to date)
>
>[snip]
>
>Wrong. The best science FICTION writers are the proponents of
>intelligent design. On the other hand, he has joined the ranks of some
>of the greatest fiction and fantasy writers this world has known.
And you know this precisely how?
Erikc (alt.atheist #002) | "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil."
BAAWA Knight (retired) | "The Truth against the World."
erikc
>On 2005-12-17 16:53:18 -0800, "Abraxas" <gun...@suscom.net> said:
>
>>
>> "Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote in message
>> news:1134865570....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> Denis Loubet wrote:
>>>
>>>>> John C. Wright, author of the best science fiction series of the
>>>>> millennium (to date) - The Golden Age trilogy - as well as one of the
>>>>> most interesting fantasy series - Everness - has become a Christian.
>>>>
>>>> Never heard of him.
>>>
>>> I guess that proves he's no good.
>>> Haven't seen any reviews of this fellow, and I keep abreast of current
>> literature. Haven't seen any listings even in a best of 100 top science
>> fiction/fantasy posting.
>
>I've seen discussions of his books here on the newsgroup (in this case,
>rec.arts.sf.written) and picked up one of his novels -- Orphans of
>Somethingorother -- but haven't read it yet.
>
>Judging from the discussion, the book sounds like imaginative fantasy
>with a lot of erotic spankings of adolescents in it. How the series
>will progress post-conversion, I couldn't say.
Perhaps erotic crufixions?
Gene Ward Smith
Malibu Skipper wrote:
> Sean O'Hara wrote:
> > How about a thirteen year old Objectivist who thinks he's the first
> > person in the world to discover Ayn Rand, and believes that he is a
> > Randian Ubermensch while those around him are too stupid to live?
> >
> > Oh, wait, isn't that most Objectivists?
> >
> It probably describes most thirteen year olds.
Thirteen year olds are slans.
The Last Conformist
words of truth wrote:
> http://www.idlefellows.com/speculativecatholic/2005/12/john-c-wright-on-becoming-christian.html
>
>
> John C. Wright on becoming a Christian
[snip]
My sister will *hate* this - she quite likes the Golden Age.
Mark K. Bilbo
truth" <wordso...@hoshmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.idlefellows.com/speculativecatholic/2005/12/john-c-wright-on-becoming-christian.html
>
>
> John C. Wright on becoming a Christian
Who?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
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"...it may be that they may have written us off."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O21E51C1C
Howard Brazee
<wordso...@hoshmail.com> wrote:
>John C. Wright, author of the best science fiction series of the
>millennium (to date) - The Golden Age trilogy - as well as one of the
>most interesting fantasy series - Everness - has become a Christian.
Never heard of him. Was this "interesting" a description created by
someone who believed his fiction supported his religious beliefs?
Howard Brazee
>Wright used to be an Objectivist. Now he's a fundy. Big surprise.
Bigger built-in market for people who don't seem to sell by the
strength of their fiction.
Howard Brazee
<Pa...@Hovnanian.com> wrote:
>Wrong. The best science FICTION writers are the proponents of
>intelligent design. On the other hand, he has joined the ranks of some
>of the greatest fiction and fantasy writers this world has known.
Obviously you haven't read it. There is much better and more logical
science FICTION available.
Howard Brazee
<WillTime...@aol.com> wrote:
>As men age, religions which promise a happy afterlife become more and
>more convincing.
I haven't seen a description of a happy afterlife that would force me
to live, say a million years that would be preferable to death. And
any religion that says that my son or daughter or even my worst enemy
will be tortured forever and ever without hope of parole because he
was fooled by Satan into not believing - is not at all attractive to
someone who is not completely filled with hate.
johnsnovak
> In rec.arts.sf.written, Mike Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > "Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote in message
> > news:1134865570....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > Denis Loubet wrote:
> > >
> > >> > John C. Wright, author of the best science fiction series of the
> > >> > millennium (to date) - The Golden Age trilogy - as well as one of the
> > >> > most interesting fantasy series - Everness - has become a Christian.
> > >>
> > >> Never heard of him.
> > >
> > > I guess that proves he's no good.
> >
> > I've never heard of him either, which casts at least some doubt on his being
> > the author of the best SF series of the millennium.
>
> You don't remember my use of the line "...instead of writing an
> ending, Wright pulls the decaying corpse of Ayn Rand out of his butt"?
>
> I'm disappointed.
That, and my dissection of the mathematical absurdity of his first
trilogy? I still giggle at the notion that the Objectivist Uber-
Machines could only be described as operating by provably impossible
algorithms.
--
John S. Novak, III
The Humblest Man On The Net
johnsnovak
says...
> His books are nicely conceived, but generally pedantic and obvious in
> execution. One of the Everness books, for instance, contains a entire
> chapter in which the villians do pretty much nothing but drive around
> cackling "Thank God for gun control! Now we can rule the world!"
> In interviews, Wright tends to go on and on about how much better
> educated and more intelligent he is than everybody else he knows.
> Unfortunately, he is quite shy about giving evidence of this.
One may then infer that he knows very few people.
johnsnovak
> In the Year of the Cock, the Great and Powerful Mike Schilling declared:
> >
> > There's nothing worse than a heretical Objectivist.
> >
>
> How about a thirteen year old Objectivist who thinks he's the first
> person in the world to discover Ayn Rand, and believes that he is a
> Randian Ubermensch while those around him are too stupid to live?
>
> Oh, wait, isn't that most Objectivists?
Most thirteen year old boys, except for the Ayn Rand/Objectivist thing.
Gene Ward Smith
John wrote:
> That, and my dissection of the mathematical absurdity of his first
> trilogy? I still giggle at the notion that the Objectivist Uber-
> Machines could only be described as operating by provably impossible
> algorithms.
They compute things you can't compute? Sounds like an oracle.
johnsnovak
gws...@svpal.org says...
Funny how that works out.
But mostly, they violate Goedel's Second Incompleteness Theorem.
Gene Ward Smith
John wrote:
> In article <1134961665.5...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> Funny how that works out.
> But mostly, they violate Goedel's Second Incompleteness Theorem.
Wright's Objectivist Uber-Machines are formal theories?
loua...@yahoo.com
Malibu Skipper wrote:
> Denis Loubet wrote:
> > "words of truth" <wordso...@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1134859548....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >>http://www.idlefellows.com/speculativecatholic/2005/12/john-c-wright-on-becoming-christian.html
> Wright used to be an Objectivist. Now he's a fundy. Big surprise.
"Turncoats & True Believers: The Dynamics of Political Belief and
Disillusionment" by Ted Goertzel is quite a good book on the
interaction between personality types and ideologies. A person
converting from a harshly dogmatic X to a harshly dogmatic anti-X, for
any value of X, is absolutely textbook.
Malibu Skipper
ex-Trotskyite.
rog...@comcast.net
The whole thing sounds a little contrived: The loving, patient
Christian wife, the life-changing "sign from God", the emotional
release...
Seems like he's using an awful lot of hackneyed plot devices, but who
knows? Maybe it really happened that way.
Nix
No, but they can't handle anything which isn't completely formally
provable and self-consistent.
Yet, oddly, they appear to have no problem with most of maths, despite
Godel.
--
`I must caution that dipping fingers into molten lead
presents several serious dangers.' --- Jearl Walker
Gene Ward Smith
Nix wrote:
> No, but they can't handle anything which isn't completely formally
> provable and self-consistent.
>
> Yet, oddly, they appear to have no problem with most of maths, despite
> Godel.
Math is formally provable and self-consistent. It's how the game is
played.
Aatu Koskensilta
> On 18 Dec 2005, Gene Ward Smith suggested tentatively:
>>
>
> No, but they can't handle anything which isn't completely formally
> provable and self-consistent.
Formally provable from what set of axioms?
> Yet, oddly, they appear to have no problem with most of maths, despite
> Godel.
What in Gödel's work suggests that "most of maths" is not consistent?
--
Aatu Koskensilta (aatu.kos...@xortec.fi)
"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, daruber muss man schweigen"
- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus
Richard D. Latham
"Mr. Godel, you have a call on the white courtesy phone."
--
#include <disclaimer.std> /* I don't speak for IBM ... */
/* Heck, I don't even speak for myself */
/* Don't believe me ? Ask my wife :-) */
Richard D. Latham lat...@us.ibm.com
Gene Ward Smith
Richard D. Latham wrote:
> > Math is formally provable and self-consistent. It's how the game is
> > played.
> "Mr. Godel, you have a call on the white courtesy phone."
When you learn, if you ever do, what the phrases "proof theory", "proof
verification" and the "Mizar project" mean, get back to us. How in hell
do you imagine math can work at all if we can't tell if a proof is
valid?
Then again, why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain
thing?
dearcilla
Malibu Skipper wrote:
> Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> > Malibu Skipper wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Wright used to be an Objectivist. Now he's a fundy. Big surprise.
> >
> >
> > was made that he was never a believing, born-again Objectivist.
> >
> That's possible. I'm not going by any knowledge of religious
> affiliation, but only by the content of his books. At any rate, he's
> always struck me as somebody who was utterly convinced that whatever
> ideas he held were right; so I'm not at all suprised by his religious
> conversion.
By contrast, most people are utterly convinced that whatever ideas they
hold are wrong.
Except me, of course. I'm an exception.
Aaron Bergman
There's a difference between verifying a proof and saying that math is
self-consistent.
Aaron
Gene Ward Smith
Nix wrote:
> On 18 Dec 2005, Gene Ward Smith suggested tentatively:
> >
> > John wrote:
> >> In article <1134961665.5...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >> Funny how that works out.
> >> But mostly, they violate Goedel's Second Incompleteness Theorem.
> >
> > Wright's Objectivist Uber-Machines are formal theories?
>
> No, but they can't handle anything which isn't completely formally
> provable and self-consistent.
>
> Yet, oddly, they appear to have no problem with most of maths, despite
> Godel.
Sounds as if the problem is that they are unhappy when they can't prove
they themselves are consistent, but perhaps Objectivist O-machines are
really self-verifying theories. For instance, there are self-verifying
versions of arithmetic which can't prove all the theorems of Peano
arithmetic, but *can* prove theorems Peano arithmetic cannot prove,
*and* are able to verify their own consistency. They thus remain happy
little Oist gizmos, and never get pissy like Bomb 20 in Dark Star, and
blow themselves up.
One of these days I'd like to be introduced to a formal theory, and
shake its hand.
Gene Ward Smith
Aaron Bergman wrote:
> There's a difference between verifying a proof and saying that math is
> self-consistent.
It's how the game is played, is what I said. If an inconsistency is
found, the axioms are taken back to the shop for further work. Even
paraconsistent theories are considered in the context of a consistent
metatheory.
Aaron Bergman
"Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote:
That's all fine. You're still never going to prove consistency of any
sufficiently complex axiomatic system within that system.
Aaron
Gene Ward Smith
Aaron Bergman wrote:
> That's all fine. You're still never going to prove consistency of any
> sufficiently complex axiomatic system within that system.
And that shows math is inconsistent?
Aaron Bergman
"Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote:
You know the answer to that.
Aaron
Matt Ruff
> "words of truth" wrote:
>
>> John C. Wright on becoming a Christian
>
> Who?
You know, that guy at the thing we saw that time.
-- M. Ruff
Matt Ruff
>>
>>> A fifth-rate sci-fi hack "finds god" so he can cash in on the
>>> Tim La Hate fantasies. Quelle surprise.
>>
>> Fifth-rate would be Kevin J. Anderson. Wright is clearly some other
>> rate, but what rate is it?
>
> He actually has the writing talent of a first-rate author
I don't see much evidence of that in this particular essay.
-- M. Ruff
Matt Ruff
>
> "words of truth" <wordso...@hoshmail.com> wrote:
>
>> the chap knew nothing about history. If atheism solved all human woe,
>> then the Soviet Union would have been an empire of joy and dancing
>> bunnies, instead of the land of corpses.
>
> Yes, the Christian explanation for this makes so much more sense:
> Devils and Original Sin. Yep.
I just want to know what dancing bunnies have to do with solving human
woe. Personally I think I'd find them creepy.
-- M. Ruff
Malibu Skipper
Obviously, you haven't opened your heart to the dancing bunnies. Heretic.
Malibu Skipper
hold are right, but I try to remain open to the notion that they might
be wrong.
David T. Bilek
Read _The Golden Age_ and maybe _The Phoenix Exultant_. No need to
read _The Golden Transcendence_... just imagine Ayn Rand's corpse
rising from the grave and vomiting on you instead.
-David
Martin Wisse
wrote:
>"Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote:
>>bg1...@apexmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> A fifth-rate sci-fi hack "finds god" so he can cash in on the
>>> Tim La Hate fantasies. Quelle surprise.
>>
>>Fifthe-rate would be Kevin J. Anderson. Wright is clearly some other
>>rate, but what rate is it?
>>
>
>He actually has the writing talent of a first-rate author but the
>ideological blinkers prevent him from living up to his potential.
Not so much ideological blinkers, as his utter conviction that whatever
he beliefs at this very moment is the whole and naked TRVTH and he only
has to assert so rather than prove it.
It is quite possible to write good Randian based science fiction (none
spring to mind at the moment) but preaching rarely makes for good
fiction.
Martin Wisse
--
I'm sick of idiots of all colours, nationalities and ideological
persuasions.
Vlatko Juric-Kokic, RASSEFF.
Sean O'Hara
Well if she didn't do it after he wrote Sewer, Gas & Electric, she
won't do it now.
--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
[Sodomy] can lead to marriage and procreation.
-Charles A. Rosenthal, Jr.
Mr. Limpet
news:41h7t9F...@individual.net...
> In the Year of the Cock, the Great and Powerful David T. Bilek declared:
>> On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:03:51 GMT, Matt Ruff
>> <storyt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I don't see much evidence of that in this particular essay.
>>>
>> Read _The Golden Age_ and maybe _The Phoenix Exultant_. No need to
>> read _The Golden Transcendence_... just imagine Ayn Rand's corpse
>> rising from the grave and vomiting on you instead.
>>
>
> Well if she didn't do it after he wrote Sewer, Gas & Electric, she won't
> do it now.
Now that was a fun read!
Bobby D. Bryant
I see that someone has time to spam newsgroups other than talk.origins
with his moronic posts.
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
Doug Weller
is, if he isn't still an Objectivist.
Doug
--
Doug Weller --
Doug & Helen's Dogs http://www.dougandhelen.com
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk