Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

Del Rey Internet Newsletter, June (long)

0 views
Skip to first unread message

Ellen Key Harris

unread,
Jun 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/4/96
to

|DEL|
|REY| The DEL REY BOOKS Internet Newsletter

Number 41 (June 1996)

WHAT'S NEW IN THE STORES===========================================

BELGARATH THE SORCERER by David & Leigh Eddings. Paperback. (VC)

This is the Eddings' long-awaited return to the world of _The Belgariad_
and _The Malloreon_. Fans will recall that Eddings wrote, at the end of
his _New York Times_ hardcover bestseller THE SEERESS OF KELL that "There
will be other days and other stories, but this tale is finished." But even
as he (shy devil) was putting a firm _end_ to the tale of Garion the
Godslayer, Eddings was planning to go back and tell the beginning of the
story. After all, Ancient Belgarath and his daughter Polgara the Sorceress
had spent eons fighting the battle to determine the fate of all
creation--don't try to tell him there wasn't a rip-roaring story in _that_!
Now, aided and abetted (as always) by his previously unindicted
co-conspirator and spouse Leigh, David Eddings gives us the epochal
autobiography of Belgarath himself, the original big bad Old Wolf.

>> SAMPLE CHAPTER AVAILABLE ONLINE:
http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/sample/belgarath.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------
GENELLAN: IN THE SHADOW OF THE MOON by Scott G. Gier. Paperback. (SS)

Continuing the story begun in GENELLAN: PLANETFALL, this book examines the
building of the colony on Genellan and the tentative peace between the
humans, the bearlike Kones, and the winged cliff-dwellers. In IN THE SHADOW
OF THE MOON, Lt. Buccari is torn between her duty to her son and the other
people of Genellan and her duty to the space fleet--especially now that
both are under attack: Genellan by another faction of the Kones, who claim
the planet as their own; and the fleet by the same horrendous aliens who
years earlier wiped out entire colonies and now have it in for Buccari
personally. IN THE SHADOW OF THE MOON brings back most of the great
characters from the first book, as well as introducing a few new and
equally engaging ones. And as with the first book, there's plenty of
military action, adventure, romance, and heroism.

>> SAMPLE CHAPTER AVAILABLE ONLINE:
http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/sample/intheshadow.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CHILDHOOD'S END by Arthur C. Clarke. Paperback. (SWS)

Clarke's dark vision of a golden age, brought about by the mysterious
extraterrestrial Overlords as a gift to the human race. But as usual, the
price of paradise is not one we would choose to pay. A haunting, classic
sf novel--one of those must-reads that even non-sf readers will appreciate.

DEL REY DATA=======================================================
JUNE 1996:
THE RINGWORLD THRONE by Larry Niven (SF)
345-35861-9
Hardcover, 432 pp; cover art by Barclay Shaw; SS, editor

THE SAGE by Christopher Stasheff (F)
Book Two of _The Star Stone_; 345-39239-6
Hardcover, 384 pp; cover art by Stephen Youll; VC, editor

WITCHES' BREW by Terry Brooks (F)
Sequel to THE TANGLE BOX; Mass-market edition of our 4/95 hardcover;
345-38702-3
Paperback, 368 pp; cover art by Keith Parkinson; OL, editor

THE CYBERNETIC WALRUS by Jack L. Chalker (SF)
Book One of _The Wonderland Gambit_; Mass-market edition of our 11/95
trade paperback; 345-38847-X
Paperback, 336 pp; cover art by Paul Youll; SWS, editor

SHADE AND SHADOW by Francine Woodbury (F)
Del Rey Discovery; 345-39428-3
Paperback, 320 pp; cover art by Paul Youll; VC, editor

DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP by Philip K. Dick (SF)
a.k.a. BLADERUNNER; 345-40447-5
Trade paperback, 256 pp; cover art by Bruce Jensen; SWS, editor
--------------------------------------------------------------
JULY 1996:
BELGARATH THE SORCERER by David & Leigh Eddings (F)
Mass-market edition of our 8/95 hardcover; 345-40395-9
Paperback, 737 pp; cover art by Laurence Schwinger; VC, editor

GENELLAN: Book Two, IN THE SHADOW OF THE MOON by Scott G. Gier (SF)
Sequel to GENELLAN: PLANETFALL; 345-40449-1
Paperback, 480 pp; cover art by Bob Eggleton; SS, editor

CHILDHOOD'S END by Arthur Clarke (SF)
345-40449-1
Repackage, 218 pp; cover collage by David Stevenson; SWS, editor
-------------------------------------------------------------
AUGUST 1996:
THE WATERBORN by J. Gregory Keyes (F)
345-40393-2
Hardcover, 320 pp; cover art by Tom Kidd; VC, editor

GRAYHEART by Tara K. Harper (SF)
345-38053-3
Paperback, 352 pp; cover art by Eric Peterson; SS, editor

WHEEL OF DREAMS by Salinda Tyson (F)
345-39403-5
Paperback, 320 pp; cover art by Michael Kaluta; VC, editor

HAMMER AND ANVIL by Harry Turtledove (F)
345-38048-7
Paperback, 384 pp; cover art by Steve Youll; VC, editor

SLOW RIVER by Nicola Griffith (SF)
345-39537-9
Trade paperback, 352; cover art by David Stevenson; EKH, editor
------------------------------------------------------------
SEPTEMBER 1996:
THREE BOOKS OF KNOWN SPACE by Larry Niven (SF)
345-40448-3
Trade paperback, 608 pp; cover art and design by David Stevenson from
photos
courtesy of Phototake; SS, editor

LAST SWORD OF POWER by David Gemmell (F)
345-37901-2
Paperback, 320 pp; cover art by Royo; SWS, editor

HUNT THE HEAVENS by Chris Bunch (SF)
345-38736-8
Paperback, 256 pp; cover art by Nicholas Jainschigg; SS, editor
------------------------------------------------------------
OCTOBER 1996:
MOTHER OF WINTER by Barbara Hambly (F)
345-39722-3
Hardcover, 352 pp; cover art by Donato Giancola; VC, editor

TARZAN: THE EPIC ADVENTURES by R.A. Salvatore (SF)
345-40810-1
Trade paperback, 256 pp; cover photo by Michelene Keller; SWS, editor

THE OCTOBER COUNTRY by Ray Bradbury (SF)
345-40785-7
Trade paperback, 336 pp; cover art by Janet Woolley; CL, editor

THE QUOTABLE STAR WARS: I'D JUST AS SOON KISS A WOOKIEE by
Stephen J. Sansweet (SF)
345-40760-1
Trade paperback, 128 pp; cover art from Lucasfilm Ltd.; SWS, editor

THE ROAD TO MADNESS: THE TRANSITION OF H.P. LOVECRAFT by H.P.
Lovecraft (SF)
Third of our short-story collection series; 345-38422-9
Trade paperback, 384 pp; cover art by John Jude Palencar; SWS, editor

MID-FLINX by Alan Dean Foster (SF)
Mass-market edition of our 11/95 hardcover edition;345-40644-3
Paperback,352 pp; cover art by Bob Eggleton; SS, editor

DEVIL'S TOWER by Mark Sumner (SF)
345-40209-X
Paperback, 352 pp; cover art by Sanjulian; VC, editor

A GUIDE TO THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE, SECOND EDITON, REVISED & EXPANDED
by Bill Slavicsek (SF)
345-38625-6
Trade paperback reissue, 495 pp; cover art by Ralph McQuarrie, SWS, editor
--------------------------------------------------------
DRIN AVAILABILITY (Lots of ways to get the DRIN online)

1. read it the first few days of the month on rec.arts.sf.written,
Delphi's Science Fiction and Fantasy SIG (Upcoming Books and Magazines
topic), America Online's SF Library or OmniPurpose Library,* or
CompuServe's SFLit Library 2*;
2. send a message to majo...@www.randomhouse.com to be added to
the subscriber list and have the DRIN delivered to your mailbox the
first or second working day of the month. The body of the message
should read: subscribe DRIN-dist e-mail-address;
3. read it and more on our World Wide Web site*,
http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/
4. get a copy from the Del Rey fileserver* (del...@tachyon.com) by
sending e-mail with "SENDME newsletter.current" as the body of
the message (or send "HELP" for full instructions);
5. read it on the Panix gopher* (gopher.panix.com; choose the Del Rey
Books directory);
6. read it at the Internet Book Information Center (WWW address:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/ibic/IBIC-homepage.html);*
7. read the current issue in the science-fiction area on BIX;
8. retrieve the current issue from the SF archives at
sflovers.rutgers.edu

*Back issues also available
--------------------------------------------------------------
WORKS IN PROGRESS: Changes, Additions, Updates

The DRIN lists only the changes to the Works in Progress report. The
entire current report can be found on the Panix gopher (gopher.panix.com)
in the Del Rey Books subdirectory, under Publishing Information.)

No updates this month except for news on Arthur C. Clarke's 3001: THE FINAL
ODYSSEY (see News and Announcements below).

---------------------------------------------------------------
SIGNING, READINGS, CONVENTION ATTENDANCE BY DEL REY AUTHORS

MARK COTTA VAZ will be signing SECRETS OF STAR WARS: SHADOWS OF THE EMPIRE
at the following locations:
June 1: Cartoon Art Museum, San Francisco, California, 1PM-3PM.
June 14: East Bay Books, San Leandro, California, 4PM-6PM.

FRANCINE WOODBURY will be signing SHADE AND SHADOW at the following stores:
June 1: Waldenbooks, Chestnut Hill, Pennsylvania, 1PM-2:30PM.
June 1: Pandemonium Books and Games, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 4PM-6PM.
June 7: Worchester Common Fashion Outlet, Worchester, Mass, 12PM-2PM.
June 8: Waldenbooks, Auburn, Massachussets, 1PM-2:30PM.
June 9: Waldenbooks, Manchester, Connecticut,, 1PM-2:30PM.
June 15: Tatnuck Bookseller, Worcester, Massachussets, 1PM-4PM.

STEVE SAFFEL, Del Rey Senior Editor, VERONICA CHAPMAN, Del Rey Senior
Editor, KUO-YU LIANG, Del Rey Associate Publisher, and J. GREGORY KEYES,
author of Discovery of the Year THE WATERBORN, will be attending DragonCon
in Atlanta, Georgia, June 20-23.

DEL REY NEWS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS===================================

NEW HARRY HARRISON ALTERNATE-HISTORY TRILOGY

Del Rey has just purchased a sweeping alternate-history trilogy by Harry
Harrison, tentatively titled _The Stars and Stripes_. We plan to publish
the first volume in 1998. Here's what it's about:

The change of history begins as Prince Albert, who in the real timeline
averts a diplomatic crisis, dies an untimely death--which leads to a
British invasion of America's northern border...smack in the middle of the
Civil War. The Civil War is in a stalemate; Abe Lincoln and Jefferson
Davis have been in secret meetings to discuss a resolution when the Brits
show up. When the Brits accidentally attack a Southern stronghold, North
and South unite against the invaders. General Sherman becomes the
commanding General and leads Grant, Lee, McClellan, Jackson, etc. into a
series of fantastic battles the Brits, including the Battle of New York and
Sherman's march through Canada. Britain, furious at its defeat, begins a
second, massive invasion through the Gulf of Mexico as it pulls in all of
its resources from colonies worldwide. We'll leave what happens next a
mystery, but let's just say it involves Ireland.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
DEL REY BOOKS ACQUIRES ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S 3001: THE FINAL ODYSSEY

3001: THE FINAL ODYSSEY is the concluding installment of a story that began
with 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY and continued with 2010: ODYSSEY TWO and 2061:
ODYSSEY THREE. Arthur Clarke says: "To put the Odyssey series in
perspective, it must be remembered that when Stanley Kubrick and I started
planning what we privately called 'How the Solar System Was Won,' the Space
Age was barely seven years old and no human had traveled more than a
hundred kilometers from the home planet. In 1965, travel to the moon still
seemed to most people like a far-off dream. We did not even know what the
lunar surface looked like at close quarters. There were still fears that
the first word uttered by an emerging astronaut would be 'Help!' as he
disappeared into a talcum-powder-like layer of moondust.

"This new work will discard many of the elements of its precursors, but
develop others--and I hope more important ones--in much greater detail.
I've never had so much fun writing, and the ideas are pouring out."

Progress on the novel was hindered by the Challenger space shuttle disaster
in 1986. The shuttle was to have launched the Galileo space probe to
Jupiter, a journey of some 390 million miles during which the vessel would
have transmitted detailed observations to Earth. Without the information
from Galileo, Clarke was unable to continue his research for the concluding
volume of the Odyssey series. It was not until NASA successfully launched
the probe years later that the author was able to obtain the data he
needed to proceed with 3001: THE FINAL ODYSSEY.

There is no publication date as yet, but watch this space for news.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
SEMIANNUAL, BILATERAL, HEXADECIMAL SF/F WEB SITE ROUND-UP

In standard World Wide Web fashion, I set off looking for SF/F publishers'
sites and ended up with few of what I sought but lots of related stuff
instead--stores, fan sites, and even a site for those of you who watch TV
when you're not reading books. Thus, the following items:

Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy and Utopia Page, which I found out
about by reading SF Weekly (see below):
http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/femsf.html

Weekly Internet Top 100 SF/Fantasy List (compiled from votes by readers):
www.clark.net/pub/iz/Books/Top100/top100list.txt

Northwest Science Fiction Resources, including convention information,
writer and fan resources, links to clubs and bookstores, and more:
http://www.seanet.com/Users/warlock/

Science Fiction Weekly, a Web-based SF/F magazine with book, game, and TV &
movie reviews, plus interviews etc.:
http://www.scifiweekly.com/

Mysterious Galaxy SF/F/Mystery bookstore (at their newish address):
http://www.mystgalaxy.com/mg.html

The House of Speculative Fiction (an Ottawa bookstore), including staff
picks with reviews, forthcoming books list, ordering by e-mail:
http://www.cyberus.ca/specfic/

Dominion, the Sci-Fi Channel's site, mostly TV-oriented but with some book
and merchandise stuff:
http://www.scifi.com/

A site put together by author Mark Sumner to promote DEVIL'S TOWER, his
forthcoming Del Rey book:
http://www.inlink.com/~range/

An unofficial David Gemmell site,with bibliography by series:
http://www.home-spun.com/gemmell/

A detailed J.R.R. Tolkien timeline, covering events in his life and career:
http://www.lights.com/tolkien/timeline.html

Note: I'm happy to publicize good new SF/F sites and will be doing
another round-up sometime soon, so feel free to send me suggestions.
Thanks!

LATEST EXCERPTS ONLINE=============================================

Sample chapters of some of our upcoming and recent (and some of our
favorite, neither upcoming nor recent) books are available online (for
free, of course). This month's books are BELGARATH by David and Leigh
Eddings and GENELLAN: IN THE SHADOW OF THE MOON by Scott G. Gier.
Descriptions above in "What's New in the Stores."

You can get the sample chapters a few different ways: they're on the Del
Rey Web site (http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/) and on the Panix gopher
(gopher.panix.com) in the Del Rey Books directory; you can request them via
e-mail from the Del Rey fileserver (del...@tachyon.com; SENDME
sample.belgarath or sample.in_the_shadow) and they'll be available in
CompuServe's SFLit Library 2 and AOL's SF and Fantasy libraries, too. (For
a list of all sample chapters available via the fileserver, send a message
to del...@tachyon.com with "LIST sample" as the body of the message.)

IN DEPTH========================================================

Since turning to the arts full-time in 1978, Barclay Shaw has painted well
over 350 book and magazine cover illustrations--including many covers for
Del Rey. His career as an artist began with commissions to do the cover
illustrations for sixteen Harlan Ellison titles. Since then, he has worked
for virtually every major publishing house. His work has been nominated for
Hugo and Chesley Awards and has been displayed in museum and gallery shows
as well as numerous Science Fiction Convention art shows. He recently
created the cover art for Larry Niven's THE RINGWORLD THRONE, using digital
tools instead of paint and brushes. Below are his comments on the
experience, in the context of technological changes in the art scene:

THE RINGWORLD THRONE AND ELECTRONIC MEDIA

Acrylic paint and photography were two major new developments in art media
to come along in quite some time, and both had a profound impact on the art
scene. As both were derived from the developing technologies of the day,
the initial forms of each suffered from many problems, primary among them
issues of consistency and permanence. Although these problems were resolved
as technology evolved, full acceptance of the media took a long time. Both
acrylics and photography are still looked down upon in certain art circles
as inferior media. But that controversy is about to pale before those being
created by the latest new medium: the computer.

Although computer art is relatively new, it has already created problems
and controversy that are likely to exceed those created by the introduction
of acrylics or even photography. For example, in a computer-generated 2D
image what is the actual art? Is it the electronic file, or is output from
that file? Or is the output a print? And so on. The majority of such issues
are market-based questions and as such are important to the artist as
marketer, but also are irrelevant to the artist as creator.

Ralph Mayer in his artist's bible, THE ARTIST'S HANDBOOK OF MATERIALS AND
TECHNIQUES, says: "No movements or schools of art began as a result of the
discovery of new materials or inventions of new techniques. Rather, when
new ideas and aesthetic departures arose, they created a demand for new
technical methods that could express them in a more appropriate and fluent
manner..." This sounds great, but my own experience is that things are far
more interrelated than that. In accordance with Mayer, Impressionism was an
aesthetic departure which embraced the reductionism of scientific thought,
by focusing in on specific aspects of the traditional painting process: the
use of light or color for example. But it was just as much a reaction to
the invention of photography (a new tool/material/medium), as it was simply
an aesthetic departure.

More specifically, I find that artistic expression is more the result of
the interaction of artist and materials as it is the concrescence of an
independent idea. Sculpture is one of my first loves, and many of my pieces
begin simply as play with different materials. The results of that play
directly evoke feelings and concepts that lead to the final sculpture. Two
of my favorite materials, fiberglass and polyurethane foam, are relatively
recent inventions, and the properties of those materials contribute
directly to the sculptures I create with them. In a sense, I would not have
thought to create those specific sculptures without seeing what those
specific materials do. And so, in a far more dynamic way the interaction
between artist and computer is now giving rise to an enormous array of new
art forms, using and combining 2D & 3D imagery, animation, sound or
whatever aspects of multimedia spectrum the artist chooses.

Some artists immediately take to new tools or media while others eschew
them. This is an outcome of the elitism that is inherent in (and necessary
to) the art market, but happily not in art itself; there seems to be plenty
of room for expression in the art world. The key term here is artist's
tool, and as is said: "use the right tool for the job." If one is creating
a mural on the bottom of a swimming pool, it may be wise to put away the
watercolors. Likewise, an image best suited to oil on canvas would probably
best not be created with a computer. Of course, as you read that last line
there was probably some artist in SOHO dipping his CPU in paint and rolling
it across a stretched canvas. All right, so that was me in Connecticut. And
it did make an interesting textural pattern... but I digress.

So, Dave Stevenson, art director at Del Rey Books, decided that a
computer-generated piece would make a good cover for Larry Niven's THE
RINGWORLD THRONE. Dave knew that I dabbled with 3D computer programs, and
I was very pleased to receive the assignment. It is still a bold move to
use computer art, and from the artist's perspective, it is always a joy to
work with someone willing to experiment. After reading and discussing the
manuscript with Dave, I created some sketches based on a more symbolic or
surreal approach to the book, rather than a literal rendering of a specific
scene.

The chosen concept incorporated an element from the manuscript, the
floating city, into a surreal depiction of the Ringworld ring. The actual
creation of the final piece involved mapping various painted and
photo-manipulated textures onto models sculpted with a 3D program. Lighting
sources and a camera were placed in the scene, and a high-resolution
rendering was made from the virtual camera's point of view. That rendering
was output to a 4x5 transparency for color separation.

One interesting thing about the 3D programs is that once a virtual scene is
made, it is extremely easy to move a camera or any other aspect of the
model over a timeline to create an animation (with multiple renderings).
This is exactly what I did with the Ringworld Throne model. I also have an
interest in creating electronic music, so by integrating some simple
animations and music, I was able create a short promotional QuickTime movie
for the book. Being able to combine a variety of interests (painting,
sculpture, animation and music) in a single project was pure joy!

This sort of thing opens up enormous possibilities for the artist. Although
the interface for 3D programs are at present somewhat awkward, one can see
that in the very near future the would-be sculptor will simply don a pair
of glasses and gloves and model virtual objects in space. Computer-aided
manufacture could then produce an edition of the sculpted object, or the
object could itself be animated by shape and/or texture and displayed in a
virtual gallery. The variations are endless. Taking my own tack, I have
just produced a limited edition print from one of my paintings: "Song of
Cecilia." Although the painting is actually painted on canvas in oil on
acrylic, its structure was designed in a 3D program. On completion of the
painting, the textures in it were scanned and re-applied to the objects in
the original computer model, allowing the creation of 3D scene animations.
I am currently working on the creation of an interactive CD-ROM as a
companion to the art print, which will enable the viewer to explore the
environment of the painting and listen to music composed specifically for
the piece. Again, what fun it is to combine the various media!

--Copyright 1996 by Barclay Shaw
Barcl...@aol.com

Q & A===================================================================

Q: What info do you have on Jack Chalker's books? Is there stuff on the
Internet?
A: We have quite a few sample chapters from Chalker's books on our Web
site, http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/ (also on our gopherspace,
gopher://gopher.panix.com:70/00/DRB/); we've done a Chalker bibliography in
the DRIN (http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/drindex/). Check the summaries
at the address above to find the exact isue. Also, he has a Web site
(http://www.greyware.com/authors/jack_l_chalker) and a reader has a Well
World site (http://www.netnet.net/users/gbuntin/dawell.html).

Q: How many _Worldwar_ books is Harry Turtledove planning?
A: The third book, WORLDWAR: UPSETTING THE BALANCE, is out now in hardcover
(sporting Albert Einstein, Dwight Eisenhower, and Benito Mussolini on the
cover). It will be released as a paperback in late November-early
December, at about the same time as the fourth and final book, WORLDWAR:
STRIKING THE BALANCE hits in hardcover. For the finale, Harry Turtledove
has pulled some real rabbits out of the hat, including a classic red
herring and a couple of real, hold-your-breath dramatic scenes.

Q: I've been following the DRIN since the first issue and look forward to
it every month. I miss two sections from the "old days": IMHO, which
lent a sense of reality to the publishing business, and Q & A, which
used to include questions other than those about release dates of
upcoming books. I can sense the time pressures in an editor's
life--getting books published and sold is obviously far more important
than filling the public in on the details of the business--but it would
be nice to see, once again, even an occasional column in the DRIN with a
view on where the SF and fantasy markets are headed, especially when
that direction is changing!
A: I wish we still had IMHOs and more Q&As, too. The IMHOs stopped because
I ran out of things to say (at the same time as I ran out of time to write
them!), and no one else around here wanted to take over. I offered the
space to anyone from the sf-reader community who wanted to submit articles,
but no one was interested, apparently. So here I go again: The DRIN is
looking for articles by readers about SF/F--anything well reasoned and
interesting, other than reviews of particular books. The pay is
nonexistent, but if you've ever wanted to reach thousands of interested
SF/F readers all over the electronic world, here's your soapbox. I did it
for two years and tried to teach readers what I know about SF/F publishing
and the book business in general, plus took a few education breaks to rant
and rave over various things. I dare some of you to tell us what _you_
know!

Ellen Key Harris
Editor, Del Rey Books
Director of Online Projects, Ballantine Books
del...@randomhouse.com |DEL|
===================================================================|REY|
[The Del Rey Internet Newsletter is copyright 1996 by Del Rey Books,
except for the IN DEPTH section, which is copyright by the author.
The DRIN may be reproduced only in its entirety, and not for profit.]

Charles Board

unread,
Jun 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/5/96
to

In article <4p1mmb$2...@panix.com>, e...@panix.com (Ellen Key Harris) writes:

|> SEPTEMBER 1996:
|> THREE BOOKS OF KNOWN SPACE by Larry Niven (SF)
|> 345-40448-3
|> Trade paperback, 608 pp; cover art and design by David Stevenson from
|> photos
|> courtesy of Phototake; SS, editor

Anyone have any more info on what exactly this is/includes?

0 new messages