books similar in spirit to Lord of the Rings?
Darrell
interested in what books and authors are somewhat similar in
spirit/tone/style/depth to LoTR. I know that the whole fantasy genre has
been inspired by Tolkien, but what books have the same type of depth? I'll
start by suggesting Dennis McKiernan's Mithgar books...what others?
Konrad Gaertner
>
> I'm hungry for more like this. LoTR is a unique classic, but I'd be
> interested in what books and authors are somewhat similar in
> spirit/tone/style/depth to LoTR. I know that the whole fantasy genre has
> been inspired by Tolkien, but what books have the same type of depth?
I suspect you'll get a lot of conflicting opinions on which books are
deep or not, but I'll mention a few I think qualify (author followed
by recommended book(s) to start with):
George RR Martin, _A Game of Thrones_
Steven Brust, _Jhereg_, _The Phoenix Guards_, _Taltos_, _Brokedown
Palace_
Jo Walton, _The King's Peace_, _The Prize in the Game_
Diane Duane, _The Door into Fire_ (part of the omnibus _The Sword and
the Dragon_)
Robin Hobb, _Assassin's Apprentice_, _Ship of Magic_
Steven Erikson, _The Gardens of the Moon_
Stephen Hickman, _The Lemurian Stone_
Robert Jordan, _The Eye of the World_
Tad Williams, _The Dragonbone Chair_
--KG
Luna
"Darrell" <darre...@NoSpamattbi.com> wrote:
How strange. My challenge in looking for fantasy I would enjoy is in
finding stuff that ISN'T like LoTR.
--
-Michelle Levin (Luna)
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick
http://www.mindspring.com/~designbyluna
In the beginning, there was nothing. Then it exploded.
Brenda W. Clough
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Stephen Ball
Jack Love
<clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>WEIRDSTONE OF BRISINGAMEN and MOON OF GOMRATH, by Alan Garner.
Weirdstone of Brisingamen is one of my all time favorites: up to but
not including the crawl underground. My claustrophobia just doesn't
like it...ever since reading Thor Heyerdahl when I was a kid :)
>Brenda
Jim
You might like these..
Three books by James P. Blaylock
The Disappearing Dwarf
The Elfin Ship
The Stone Giant
Green Rider by Kristen Britain
The Curse of Sagamore
The Sword of Sagamore
both by Kara Dalkey
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever (trilogy) by Stephen R.
Donaldson
Reverend Lovejoy
news:xn8N9.454438$QZ.70571@sccrnsc02...
Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time books should keep you occupied for a while...
there's conflicting opinions about the quality of that series though
--
"This so called new religion is nothing but a pack of weird rituals and
chants designed to take away the money of fools. Let us say the Lord's
prayer 40 times, but first let's pass the collection plate."
- Reverend Lovejoy, The Simpsons
Peter H. Granzeau
I thought that of Elizabeth Moon's "The Deed of Paksenarrion" was that
good when I first read it, and still believe so.
Dan Clore
_The Sword of Shannara_ bears a certain degree of
resemblance to Tolkien's work.
--
Dan Clore
Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
All my fiction through 2001 and more. Intro by S.T. Joshi.
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro
Lord We˙rdgliffe and Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News for Anarchists & Activists:
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Said Smygo, the iconoclast of Zothique: "Bear a hammer with
thee always, and break down any terminus on which is
written: 'So far shalt thou pass, but no further go.'"
--Clark Ashton Smith
Chris Thompson
Dan Clore <cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote:
>Darrell wrote:
>>
>> I'm hungry for more like this. LoTR is a unique classic, but I'd be
>> interested in what books and authors are somewhat similar in
>> spirit/tone/style/depth to LoTR. I know that the whole fantasy genre has
>> been inspired by Tolkien,
"The whole fantasy genre" ?! That really is a bit over the top, you know ... :)
>> but what books have the same type of depth? I'll
>> start by suggesting Dennis McKiernan's Mithgar books...what others?
>
>_The Sword of Shannara_ bears a certain degree of
>resemblance to Tolkien's work.
True. In the same sense that "spam bears a certain degree of resemblance
to meat", or "velveeta bears a certain degree of resemblance to cheese".
Chris Thompson
Email: cet1 [at] cam.ac.uk
kd...@removeshaw.ca
God Stalk, Dark of the Moon, and Seeker's Mask by P.C. Hodgell.
Kerry
Kerry D. Lee
kd...@shaw.ca
Great, so now it's battle of the cliche men. - Lina Inverse, Slayers 1
The concept of linear time was severely harmed by this post
Michalak
I'm going to assume being fantasy and deep is enough, and you don't
mind a lack of elves, magic, and true heroes. Go read _Titus Groan_
and _Gormenghast_ by Mervyn Peake. Lots of depth, incredible images,
and also made into an excellent BBC production with Christopher Lee as
a lead character. I describe the books as sort of a twilight in the
forbidden city in a more European setting with a strong dose of the
absurd, though not outright comedy.
After that you might try...
_The Club Dumas_ by Arturo Perez-Reverte. It's about book collecting,
Satanism, and fans of Dumas. Nice work of modern fantasy, and it also
lacks elves and spells. It is somewhat similar in tone to...
_The Name of the Rose_ by Umberto Eco. It is a medieval detective
story
involving the love of books and a monastery. Both Eco and Reverte
write in a detail rich style. Of the two Eco is more in reality and
Perez-Reverte at least has the hint that something truely mystical is
happening, though it doesn't break right out into throwing lightning
bolts. And really The Name of the Rose is only halfway to fantasy,
but I thought I would throw it in anyways.
None of these books are quick reads, though they do suck me in
completely.
Michalak
Promoting Gormenghast so people will know what he's babbling about
when he throws his Gormenghast themed party at Milehicon in 2003.
Nancy Lebovitz
Darrell <darre...@NoSpamattbi.com> wrote:
I don't know which things about LOTR attract you, but I'll recommend
McKillip's Riddlemaster trilogy.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com 100 new slogans
I want to move to theory. Everything works in theory.
David Tate
> In article <xn8N9.454438$QZ.70571@sccrnsc02>,
> "Darrell" <darre...@NoSpamattbi.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm hungry for more like this. LoTR is a unique classic, but I'd be
> > interested in what books and authors are somewhat similar in
> > spirit/tone/style/depth to LoTR. I know that the whole fantasy genre has
> > been inspired by Tolkien, but what books have the same type of depth? I'll
> > start by suggesting Dennis McKiernan's Mithgar books...what others?
> How strange. My challenge in looking for fantasy I would enjoy is in
> finding stuff that ISN'T like LoTR.
That would seem to be an awfully unchallenging challenge. I've never
managed to find anything else remotely like LotR, except in the most
superficial ways.
Cheers,
David Tate
Brenda W. Clough
Well, it depends on what you want it to be 'like'. Do you want elves
and dwarves? Alan Garner's books are the choice to make. Do you want a
sweep of war and politics across a large fantasy landscape? George R.R.
Martin. Do you want moral dilemmas embodied in plot? Charles Williams
is the way to go. Wizardry in action? The Earthsea books or even Harry
Potter. And so on.
Konrad Gaertner
>
> David Tate wrote:
>
> >Luna <luna...@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message news:<lunachick-9DD74...@news.mindspring.com>...
> >
> >>In article <xn8N9.454438$QZ.70571@sccrnsc02>,
> >> "Darrell" <darre...@NoSpamattbi.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>I'm hungry for more like this. LoTR is a unique classic, but I'd be
> >>>interested in what books and authors are somewhat similar in
> >>>spirit/tone/style/depth to LoTR. I know that the whole fantasy genre has
> >>>been inspired by Tolkien, but what books have the same type of depth? I'll
> >>>start by suggesting Dennis McKiernan's Mithgar books...what others?
> >
> >>How strange. My challenge in looking for fantasy I would enjoy is in
> >>finding stuff that ISN'T like LoTR.
> >
> >That would seem to be an awfully unchallenging challenge. I've never
> >managed to find anything else remotely like LotR, except in the most
> >superficial ways.
>
> Well, it depends on what you want it to be 'like'. Do you want elves
> and dwarves? Alan Garner's books are the choice to make. Do you want a
> sweep of war and politics across a large fantasy landscape? George R.R.
> Martin. Do you want moral dilemmas embodied in plot? Charles Williams
> is the way to go. Wizardry in action? The Earthsea books or even Harry
> Potter. And so on.
Luckily, the original poster explicitly told us he was looking for
books with similar "depth", which certainly excludes most fantasy.
Now we get to argue over what's left :)
[My choices may be found upthread.]
--KG
Michalak
> Darrell wrote:
> >
> > I'm hungry for more like this. LoTR is a unique classic, but I'd be
> > interested in what books and authors are somewhat similar in
> > spirit/tone/style/depth to LoTR. I know that the whole fantasy genre has
> > been inspired by Tolkien, but what books have the same type of depth? I'll
> > start by suggesting Dennis McKiernan's Mithgar books...what others?
>
> _The Sword of Shannara_ bears a certain degree of
> resemblance to Tolkien's work.
I'll agree that _The Sword of Shannara_ has a certain degree of
resemblance to _The Lord of the Rings_, but there is not a huge
similarity beyond the quest to defeat ultimate evil plot line.
Personally I didn't care for it that much, and I think it does not
have anything near the depth of Tolkien. Which doesn't make it bad,
sometimes a person doesn't want to read a book where everyone speaks
*very dramatically*. And though I don't care much for _The Sword of
Shannara_ I still rather like _Magic Kingdom for Sale, Sold!_ and I'm
a bit fond of _The Elfstones of Shannara_. I'd skip the rest though.
Likewise with Dennis McKiernan. He wrote his Iron Tower Trilogy to be
sequels to Lord of the Rings (with the serial numbers filed off), but
he just doesn't have the deeply thought out style of Tolkien in my
opinion. Thought I do like him better than Brooks and I do like the
books well enough to track down first editions.
Michalak
Michalak
> True. In the same sense that "spam bears a certain degree of resemblance
> to meat", or "velveeta bears a certain degree of resemblance to cheese".
MMMmmmm, Spam and Velveeta sandwich. Demon food.
But seriously, I think you overstate the resemblance between _Lord of
the Rings_ and the _Sword of Shannara_ with your comparisons. Other
than standard fantasy elves & dwarves plus a quest to destroy evil
sort of a plot line LotR and tSoS have nothing in common. Whereas
Spam actually is meat, just ground up and reformed meat like a meat
loaf, deli meat, or sausage.
The previously mentioned _Iron Tower Trilogy_ by McKiernan is LotR
Spam, or sausage if you prefer. The exact same elements. Halflings,
elves, dwarves, and even orcs, wargs, and trolls by other names are
used. The plot is very similar, not just a Campbell sort of all myths
are similar, but all the way to extraordinary halfling having to
destroy ultimate evil. Plus bits of poetry are used as flavor. It is
LotR ground up and reformed into something new.
Michalak
David Bilek
>
>Likewise with Dennis McKiernan. He wrote his Iron Tower Trilogy to be
>sequels to Lord of the Rings (with the serial numbers filed off), but
>he just doesn't have the deeply thought out style of Tolkien in my
>opinion. Thought I do like him better than Brooks and I do like the
>books well enough to track down first editions.
>
Uh, no. He wrote the Silver Call duology to be sequels.
He wrote the Iron Tower trilogy to provide background for the Silver
Call duology when the rights were denied.
He posts here from time to time and has described the process at some
length in the past.
-David
Brandon Ray
David Bilek wrote:
Wow. How smart do you have to be to realize that it's not a productive
use of time to write a sequal to someone else's book ON SPEC???
--
You know how it hurts a lot when you get a paper cut? Hell is a bunch
worse than that. -- seen on Usenet, 11/16/02
David Tate
> David Tate wrote:
> >Luna <luna...@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message news:<lunachick-9DD74...@news.mindspring.com>...
> >>In article <xn8N9.454438$QZ.70571@sccrnsc02>,
> >> "Darrell" <darre...@NoSpamattbi.com> wrote:
> >>>I'm hungry for more like this. LoTR is a unique classic, but I'd be
> >>>interested in what books and authors are somewhat similar in
> >>>spirit/tone/style/depth to LoTR. [...]
> >>How strange. My challenge in looking for fantasy I would enjoy is in
> >>finding stuff that ISN'T like LoTR.
> >That would seem to be an awfully unchallenging challenge. I've never
> >managed to find anything else remotely like LotR, except in the most
> >superficial ways.
> Well, it depends on what you want it to be 'like'. Do you want elves
> and dwarves? Alan Garner's books are the choice to make. Do you want a
> sweep of war and politics across a large fantasy landscape? George R.R.
> Martin. Do you want moral dilemmas embodied in plot? Charles Williams
> is the way to go. Wizardry in action? The Earthsea books or even Harry
> Potter. And so on.
The criteria given were "spirit/tone/style/depth".
"Style" already eliminates basically everything written after LotR.
There simply aren't any books written in a similar style any more.
There are many reasons for that, and some of them are (IMO) good
reasons.
"Tone" is somewhat in the ear of the beholder, but this is at best a
short list. _Watership Down_ perhaps comes closest, to my ear.
_Something Wicked This Way Comes_ has quite a bit of overlap. Both of
those are, of course, very different from LotR in many other ways.
"Spirit" would have to involve both Tolkien's notion of eucatastrophe
and of the ennobling of the lowly. That eliminates most fantasy and
all horror. _Watership Down_ seems like a good candidate again. Some
of the Narnia books would fit here, too. _A Wrinkle in Time_. _A
Wizard of Earthsea_. The first 4 Deverry books by Katherine Kerr
might be close, although Tolkien would have loathed their neo-wiccan
milieu.
"Depth" is probably the easiest to find, oddly enough -- but not in
books of similar spirit and tone. Most fantasy with comparable depth
is either much more fundamentally pessimistic, or much more ironic.
I come out thinking that _Watership Down_ is a distant cousin, but
that nothing else I've read really matches up in more than one
category. That said, I haven't read George R R Martin yet. How does
he map to Tolkien, in those 4 areas?
David Tate
Joel Baxter
> I come out thinking that _Watership Down_ is a distant cousin, but
> that nothing else I've read really matches up in more than one
> category. That said, I haven't read George R R Martin yet. How does
> he map to Tolkien, in those 4 areas?
Few actually match Tolkien for depth, since authors don't tend to spend
their entire adult lives creating history, geography, language, and
literature for their books. But ASoIaF is closer to LotR along that
axis than the other axes, I'd guess. There is certainly substantial
geography and history behind it, and a lot of political development
(more than LotR in that area).
Style, not really, although Martin does do the multi-threaded
storytelling through multiple POVs that Tolkien made popular for Fat
Fantasy.
Tone or spirit, nope. Martin's characters are not that noble, the
central conflict is "simply" a political one, the human-scale activities
are grimmer (and often sordid and selfish), and the grand-scale sweep of
the series is likely to be different from LotR in several ways.
The characters in ASoIaF don't behave particularly anachronistically,
and the society is believable as a quasi-medieval one, but it's
nevertheless a very modern piece of writing, which sets it firmly apart
from the mythic LotR. But if what people are looking for is primarily a
big set of books with lots of characters following interleaved story
threads across a large, well-realized world, then ASoIaF is a good
choice -- IMO a better choice than any other post-Tolkien Fat Fantasy.
Joel Baxter
> But seriously, I think you overstate the resemblance between _Lord of
> the Rings_ and the _Sword of Shannara_ with your comparisons. Other
> than standard fantasy elves & dwarves plus a quest to destroy evil
> sort of a plot line LotR and tSoS have nothing in common. Whereas
> Spam actually is meat, just ground up and reformed meat like a meat
> loaf, deli meat, or sausage.
I agree it's possible to overstate the similarity between LotR and SoS,
but it does take some work to do so. :-) SoS isn't a carbon copy, but
it has a large number of similarities that cannot be coincidental, or
written off as "using the same sources a LotR".
If someone is tired of LotR, they would almost certainly hate SoS. If
someone has finished LotR and wants to read more of the same, in a
fairly literal sense, then they might like SoS quite a lot. It doesn't
operate on the same philosophies as LotR, or display the same level of
craft -- but it (deliberately I have to think) mimics the surface
contours of LotR in many ways.
> The previously mentioned _Iron Tower Trilogy_ by McKiernan is LotR
> Spam, or sausage if you prefer. The exact same elements. Halflings,
> elves, dwarves, and even orcs, wargs, and trolls by other names are
> used. The plot is very similar, not just a Campbell sort of all myths
> are similar, but all the way to extraordinary halfling having to
> destroy ultimate evil. Plus bits of poetry are used as flavor. It is
> LotR ground up and reformed into something new.
A long time ago I heard that McKiernan wanted to write stories in Middle
Earth but could not (of course) get permission to do so, so he published
LotR-with-the-serial-numbers-filed-off to establish such a setting that
he could then play with in further stories. I couldn't find that tidbit
again in a quick websearch just now, but I think that he wanders by this
newsgroup every now and then so maybe he can fill us in. Unless there's
a legal reason that he couldn't outright admit to doing this. :-)
(BTW, when one of those discussions bewailing the "host of Tolkien
clones" pops up, these are the only two works that come to mind, for me.
Not exactly a host.)
A.C.
news:859bef64.02122...@posting.google.com...
> Dan Clore <cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:<3E062222...@columbia-center.org>...
> > Darrell wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm hungry for more like this. LoTR is a unique classic, but I'd be
> > > interested in what books and authors are somewhat similar in
> > > spirit/tone/style/depth to LoTR. I know that the whole fantasy genre
has
> > > been inspired by Tolkien, but what books have the same type of depth?
I'll
> > > start by suggesting Dennis McKiernan's Mithgar books...what others?
> >
> > _The Sword of Shannara_ bears a certain degree of
> > resemblance to Tolkien's work.
>
> I'll agree that _The Sword of Shannara_ has a certain degree of
> resemblance to _The Lord of the Rings_, but there is not a huge
> similarity beyond the quest to defeat ultimate evil plot line.
Huh? And the characters (Vale->Shire, Allanon->Gandalf, Skull
Bearers->Nazgul, Orl Fane->Gollum, Palance->Theoden, Stenmin->Wormtongue),
and the main villain (in both cases their body has been destroyed, spirit
lives on, gathering armies of nonhumans, etc). I mean, hell, I even LIKED
the book and I recognize it's almost a retelling of LotR.
> Personally I didn't care for it that much, and I think it does not
> have anything near the depth of Tolkien. Which doesn't make it bad,
> sometimes a person doesn't want to read a book where everyone speaks
> *very dramatically*. And though I don't care much for _The Sword of
> Shannara_ I still rather like _Magic Kingdom for Sale, Sold!_ and I'm
> a bit fond of _The Elfstones of Shannara_. I'd skip the rest though.
Elfstones had some rather well-done battle scenes, and I'm usually someone
who gets bored by them. Of course, I haven't read the Shannara books since
I was young, so they probably didn't improve with age.
--
nomadi...@hotmail.com | http://nomadic.simspace.net
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand
Russell
Callisto
Try the Coldfire trilogy of C. S. Friedman
Darrell
them!). Perhaps I was a bit too confining with my "spirit/tone/style/depth"
request. I realize that Tolkien was a master of his art (in my opinion),
and that's a hard act to follow. At the same time, there has been derision
by some of "spam fantasy." I've read a fair amount of fantasy, and although
some plots are geared to the intellect of a 13-year-old (like some of the
Dragonlance books), I've been enjoying some others. Most notably, I like
Terry Brooks' Shanarra series and Ray Feists' Riftwar and Serpentwar books,
and I'm just now discovering Dennis McKiernan's series. I've never tried
any of Robert Jordan's stuff, because from what I've read of people's
opinions, I don't feel like wading through 11 books that apparently don't
advance the plot much.
One notable series that I *loved* that seems to be overlooked is Thomas K.
Martin's Magelord trilogy. His books are relatively short, but he packs a
lot in them without wandering into drivel like some authors.
Here are more precise criteria for what I'm looking for:
1) Depth--of course, no one can match Tolkien's level, but when I say depth,
I mean a well-defined world with an "epic sweep" feel to the novel.
2) the novel must have a map of the fantasy world--simply put, if a book has
no map, then I don't buy it. Since this kind of fantasy is on another
world, I need to see where the places are. Some might think that that's
trivial, but that's my preference.
3)detailed magic--To me, this is what separates fantasy from a historical
novel. I like fantasy with a consistent magic "system". Ideally, magic
should be somewhat rare and wondrous. I especially liked the sense of
wonder I got from Feist when reading about his hall between the worlds.
4) "the Tolkein feel"--I'm open to anything, but I feel very comfortable
with elves/dwarves/dragons and such. It may be derivative, but to me, it's
a genre. This is what led me to make my original post--Tolkien is dead and
won't write any more books like LoTR--but I'm open to other authors' visions
along the same lines.
5) Ideally, a book should be a *book*--meaning it has some degree of
resolution and not like the author just decided to take a two year lunch
break before continuing the next chapter. This is why I don't read Jordan.
I believe that an author can easily write a series of stories that
inter-connect without being like unfinished books. I am also very
interested in stand-alone novels, which seem increasingly rare in the
fantasy genre these days.
So, although I've enjoyed some of the authors mentioned, I'm always
interested in what other books people can recommend--and I sure others would
be interested in the same thing. Thanks again, everyone. Happy reading!
erilar
rx...@psu.edu (Callisto) wrote:
Yes, that IS a good suggestion. Much better than the Mithgar books, in
my opinion.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Here are more precise criteria for what I'm looking for:
I'm split some of these for clarity...
> 1) Depth--of course, no one can match Tolkien's level, but when I say depth,
1a)
> I mean a well-defined world
1b)
> with an "epic sweep" feel to the novel.
> 2) the novel must have a map of the fantasy world--simply put, if a book has
> no map, then I don't buy it. Since this kind of fantasy is on another
> world, I need to see where the places are. Some might think that that's
> trivial, but that's my preference.
I wouldn't say it's trivial, but I do know that some authors
actually are opposed to putting maps in their books (Brust is one).
> 3)detailed magic--To me, this is what separates fantasy from a historical
> novel.
3a)
> I like fantasy with a consistent magic "system".
3b)
> Ideally, magic should be somewhat rare and wondrous. I especially
> liked the sense of wonder I got from Feist when reading about his
> hall between the worlds.
> 4) "the Tolkein feel"--I'm open to anything, but I feel very comfortable
> with elves/dwarves/dragons and such. It may be derivative, but to me, it's
> a genre. This is what led me to make my original post--Tolkien is dead and
> won't write any more books like LoTR--but I'm open to other authors' visions
> along the same lines.
Could you elaborate on this? D&D tie-ins have lots of dwarves,
elves, halflings, etc, but (to me) are almost opposite to Tolkien
in every other way. Would you be content with sentient non-humans
that aren't obviously based on Tolkien's? Below I'll use 4a to mean
Tolkienesque non-humans, and 4b for non-Tolkien non-humans.
> 5) Ideally, a book should be a *book*--meaning it has some degree of
> resolution and not like the author just decided to take a two year lunch
> break before continuing the next chapter. This is why I don't read Jordan.
> I believe that an author can easily write a series of stories that
> inter-connect without being like unfinished books. I am also very
> interested in stand-alone novels, which seem increasingly rare in the
> fantasy genre these days.
I'm going assume you'll allow novels that were published in (a few)
parts like LOTR.
Okay, let's see how my earlier recommendations hold up to your
detailed criteria...
George RR Martin, _A Game of Thrones_
Meets: 1a, 1b, 2, 3b, 4b
Doesn't meet: 4a, 5
Steven Brust, _Jhereg_, _The Phoenix Guards_, _Taltos_, _Brokedown
Palace_
Meets: 1a, sometimes 1b, 3a for some types, 3b for others, 4b, 5
Doesn't meet: often 1b, 2 except Brokedown Palace, 4a
Jo Walton, _The King's Peace_, _The Prize in the Game_
Meets: 1a, 1b, 2, 3a, 3b, 5
Doesn't meet: 4a, 4b
Map can be found on her website:
http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk/sulien/map.jpg
Diane Duane, _The Door into Fire_ (part of the omnibus _The Sword and
the Dragon_)
Meets: 1a, 1b, 3a, 3b, 4b, 5
Doesn't meet: 2, 4a
Robin Hobb, _Assassin's Apprentice_, _Ship of Magic_
Meets: 1a, 1b, 2, 3a, 3b, 4b, 5
Doesn't meet: 4a
Steven Erikson, _The Gardens of the Moon_
Meets: 1a, 1b, 2, not sure about 3a, 3b, 4b
Doesn't meet: 4a, 5
Stephen Hickman, _The Lemurian Stone_
Meets: 1a, 1b, 2, 3b, 4b, 5
Doesn't meet: 4a
Robert Jordan, _The Eye of the World_
Meets: 1a, 1b, 2, 3a, 3b, 4b
Doesn't meet: 4a, 5
Tad Williams, _The Dragonbone Chair_
Meets: 1a, 1b, 3b, 4b, 5
Doesn't meet: 3a, 4a
[my memory is a bit hazy on this one; I REALLY hated the ending]
Other than Brooks, Feist, and McKiernen, I can't think of anyone who
uses Tolkien-style races. But then, I'm really not interested in
that sort of thing, much preferring original races.
--KG
Nancy Lebovitz
Darrell <darre...@NoSpamattbi.com> wrote:
>Wow, I'm pretty impressed with all the responses (and I thank you for
>them!). Perhaps I was a bit too confining with my "spirit/tone/style/depth"
>request. I realize that Tolkien was a master of his art (in my opinion),
>and that's a hard act to follow. At the same time, there has been derision
>by some of "spam fantasy." I've read a fair amount of fantasy, and although
>some plots are geared to the intellect of a 13-year-old (like some of the
>Dragonlance books), I've been enjoying some others. Most notably, I like
>Terry Brooks' Shanarra series and Ray Feists' Riftwar and Serpentwar books,
>and I'm just now discovering Dennis McKiernan's series. I've never tried
>any of Robert Jordan's stuff, because from what I've read of people's
>opinions, I don't feel like wading through 11 books that apparently don't
>advance the plot much.
You might like Elizabeth Moon's Paksennarion trilogy. If you liked Feist,
then you presumably don't mind gaming flavored fantasy if it's well
done. The Moon books focus on one character rather than having Tolkien's
epic sweep, but I don't think you mentioned a need for epic sweep.
>One notable series that I *loved* that seems to be overlooked is Thomas K.
>Martin's Magelord trilogy. His books are relatively short, but he packs a
>lot in them without wandering into drivel like some authors.
>Here are more precise criteria for what I'm looking for:
>1) Depth--of course, no one can match Tolkien's level, but when I say depth,
>I mean a well-defined world with an "epic sweep" feel to the novel.
>2) the novel must have a map of the fantasy world--simply put, if a book has
>no map, then I don't buy it. Since this kind of fantasy is on another
>world, I need to see where the places are. Some might think that that's
>trivial, but that's my preference.
Unfortunately, I can't remember whether the Paksennarion books have or
need a map. Anyone have a copy handy?
>3)detailed magic--To me, this is what separates fantasy from a historical
>novel. I like fantasy with a consistent magic "system". Ideally, magic
>should be somewhat rare and wondrous. I especially liked the sense of
>wonder I got from Feist when reading about his hall between the worlds.
>4) "the Tolkein feel"--I'm open to anything, but I feel very comfortable
>with elves/dwarves/dragons and such. It may be derivative, but to me, it's
>a genre. This is what led me to make my original post--Tolkien is dead and
>won't write any more books like LoTR--but I'm open to other authors' visions
>along the same lines.
>5) Ideally, a book should be a *book*--meaning it has some degree of
>resolution and not like the author just decided to take a two year lunch
>break before continuing the next chapter. This is why I don't read Jordan.
>I believe that an author can easily write a series of stories that
>inter-connect without being like unfinished books. I am also very
>interested in stand-alone novels, which seem increasingly rare in the
>fantasy genre these days.
I'm not sure whether you'd like Hodgell's fantasy. There's magic-- maybe
too much for your tastes, but the story focuses on a person with a
lot of magic running through her. There are maps. The world is lush
and decadent and weird, and some of the events are as much horror as
fantasy (though the same could almost be said of Tolkien).
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Bumper stickers *and* buttons
War is how Americans learn geography
Jim
> The Fionavar Tapestry by G.G. Kay
Anything by Kay, who helped Tolkien's son prepare the SILMARILLION for
press. His own books are mostly set in a version of Medieval Europe
that's peculiarly his own, and where magic works. The prose is
beautifully written, and the plotting is intricate and solid. The
biggest difference, to my mind, is that there are *real* females in
Kay's work. If you just want to try a single (though large) volume,
TIGANA is my favorite of everything of his I've read.
Jim
David Bilek
I like _Coldfire_. But what in hell does it have to do with Tolkien?
It's not even properly fantasy, but science fiction!
Yes, I'm being a bit of a pain. But I've noticed that questions such
as "what books are like X?" increasingly degenerate into "Lets just
name everything we like, regardless of the original question".
-David
David Bilek
_The Sarantine Mosaic_ is at heart the story of a bunch of powerful
(in many senses of the word) women. Crispin, the protagonist,
explicity realizes this at a couple points, IIRC.
-David
Allan Griffith
says...
> >Anything by Kay, who helped Tolkien's son prepare the SILMARILLION for
> >press. His own books are mostly set in a version of Medieval Europe
> >that's peculiarly his own, and where magic works. The prose is
> >beautifully written, and the plotting is intricate and solid. The
> >biggest difference, to my mind, is that there are *real* females in
> >Kay's work. If you just want to try a single (though large) volume,
> >TIGANA is my favorite of everything of his I've read.
> >
>
> _The Sarantine Mosaic_ is at heart the story of a bunch of powerful
> (in many senses of the word) women. Crispin, the protagonist,
> explicity realizes this at a couple points, IIRC.
_The Sarantine Mosaic_ is superior in every way to _Tigana_ IMHO.
The characters seem more real and are far more interesting, and although
it's longer than _Tigana_ I found it an easier read, the writing seemed
to flow more. If you want fascinating, powerful, complex and well-
developed women characters you can't do much better than _The Sarantine
Mosaic_.
I'm not sure how close it is in feel to Tolkien. There's plenty of
depth, Kay's fantasy world is vivid and detailed, but it has more of a
feel of being fantasy for grownups than Tolkien, with characters who are
real people facing adult dilemmas and challenges.
And it has at least one map.
Al
Barbara Friedberg
trilogy--which stetched into a tetrology. It starts slowly but gets much better.
It is the most like Tolkien in involving journeys to dangerous places with a
motley group of travelers and then alliances among various peoples against truly
grisly evils. The plot is intricate and some of the characters gain considerable
depth.
At the same time, if you want something with terser diction andl more
sophisticated interplay of character, along with a definite feel for a new
fantasy world--not just modular elements from other fantasies--I liked Teresa
Edgerton's first trilogy, starting with Child of Saturn.There's a map, there are
different countries with implied languages and previous political-cultural
history, and there's lots of magic, including a morally conflicted werewolf and
a good wizard who disappeared.
Jo Walton
>
> Jo Walton, _The King's Peace_, _The Prize in the Game_
> Meets: 1a, 1b, 2, 3a, 3b, 5
> Doesn't meet: 4a, 4b
> Map can be found on her website:
> http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk/sulien/map.jpg
And it's going to be in the Australian edition. Penguin Australia are
putting out _The King's Peace_ and _The King's Name_ and they are adding
a map (a redrawn version of my aunt's map on my web page) and a
dramatis personae. Well, three dramatis personae, one for each "book" of
the first novel and another for _The King's Name_.
It isn't fair to blame authors for lack of maps, incidentally, it can be
something where they have little choice.
--
Jo I kissed a kif at Kefk blu...@vif.com
THE KING'S PEACE and THE KING'S NAME available in paperback
THE PRIZE IN THE GAME out now!
sadly out-of-date web page: http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Jo Walton
Ursula Le Guin _A Wizard of Earthsea_ and sequels _The Tombs of Atuan_
and _The Farthest Shore_.
Barbara Hambly _Dragonsbane_, _The Rainbow Abyss_, _The Witches of
Wenshar_, _The Silent Tower_. These are all the first books of series,
and except the last (which is half a book, the completion is called _The
Silicon Mage_) stand alone reasonably well.
Poul Anderson _The Broken Sword_. Standalone. No map, but otherwise I
think it's closest of all to what you want.
Pamela Dean _The Secret Country_ and sequels -- soon to be republished
in one volume. No map, but it has the depth and the assumption of
history and quest and dragons and unicorns.
I agree there isn't anything like Tolkien for depth and that feeling.
Callisto
I mentioned it for being similar in spirit, they both have epic
sweep, they escribe a very perilous journey, with companions whose
definitions of good and evil and of themselves are put into question
and redefined, and they save the world from unimaginable evil, though
it is forever changed afterwards.
I think that by not trying to write an imitation Tolkien, Celia
managed to capture its spirit.
David Dyer-Bennet
> Pamela Dean _The Secret Country_ and sequels -- soon to be republished
> in one volume. No map, but it has the depth and the assumption of
> history and quest and dragons and unicorns.
Going to be three separate volumes, last I heard. Good for people
missing only *part* of the set, probably more expensive for people who
need all three.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info
Andrew Maizels
> You might like Elizabeth Moon's Paksennarion trilogy. If you liked Feist,
> then you presumably don't mind gaming flavored fantasy if it's well
> done. The Moon books focus on one character rather than having Tolkien's
> epic sweep, but I don't think you mentioned a need for epic sweep.
> Unfortunately, I can't remember whether the Paksennarion books have or
> need a map. Anyone have a copy handy?
Yes they do.
I'd recommend trying at least the first volume, _Paks Joins the Army_.
The other two books, _Paks Plays Nethack_ and _Paks's Bad Day_ were not
to my tastes.
Andrew.
--
Google fthagn! Google fthagn! Ia Google! Ia! Ia!
Andrew Maizels
> I don't know which things about LOTR attract you, but I'll recommend
> McKillip's Riddlemaster trilogy.
I tried to like Riddlemaster, but it overloaded my stupidity filter and
I had to chuck it.
A pity, because _The Forgotten Beasts of Eld_ is really quite good.
James Burbidge
>ce...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Chris Thompson) wrote:
>> True. In the same sense that "spam bears a certain degree of resemblance
>> to meat", or "velveeta bears a certain degree of resemblance to cheese".
>
>MMMmmmm, Spam and Velveeta sandwich. Demon food.
>
>But seriously, I think you overstate the resemblance between _Lord of
>the Rings_ and the _Sword of Shannara_ with your comparisons. Other
>than standard fantasy elves & dwarves plus a quest to destroy evil
>sort of a plot line LotR and tSoS have nothing in common.
I am trying to remember whether there were "standard fantasy elves &
dwarves" before SoS. My recollection of what I read -- before Brooks
showed the nature of the market for Tolkien-derivative books -- is
(aside from genuine legends) not very heavy on other races: Kurtz,
Chant, Beagle. Most of the other Fantasy published at the time was
reprints of pre-Tolkienian work (which was also not heavy on elves and
dwarves): Dunsany, Morris, Cabell, Eddison. Occasionally you have a
work which had elves/fairies which were not at all Tolkienian, like
_Lud-in-the-Mist_.
The reason that SoS looks less derivative by comparison is that its
success opened up a whole field of other works which shared the same
derivative qualities.
--
James Burbidge jamesandma...@sympatico.ca
Chris©
<cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote:
>Darrell wrote:
>>
>> I'm hungry for more like this. LoTR is a unique classic, but I'd be
>> interested in what books and authors are somewhat similar in
>> spirit/tone/style/depth to LoTR. I know that the whole fantasy genre has
>> been inspired by Tolkien, but what books have the same type of depth? I'll
>> start by suggesting Dennis McKiernan's Mithgar books...what others?
>
>_The Sword of Shannara_ bears a certain degree of
>resemblance to Tolkien's work.
SMACK!!! (In a scottish accent) How dare he!
Christopher P. Winter
wrote:
>I'm hungry for more like this. LoTR is a unique classic, but I'd be
>interested in what books and authors are somewhat similar in
>spirit/tone/style/depth to LoTR. I know that the whole fantasy genre has
>been inspired by Tolkien, but what books have the same type of depth? I'll
>start by suggesting Dennis McKiernan's Mithgar books...what others?
>
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the famous trilogy by Tolkien's
friend C. S. Lewis:
Out of the Silent Planet
Perelandra
That Hideous Strength
I read them long ago and don't remember them al that well. But I judge
them as matching LOTR in spirit, but not in depth, tone or style.
Thomas Yan
> Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
>
>> I don't know which things about LOTR attract you, but I'll recommend
>> McKillip's Riddlemaster trilogy.
>
> I tried to like Riddlemaster, but it overloaded my stupidity filter
> and I had to chuck it.
>
> A pity, because _The Forgotten Beasts of Eld_ is really quite good.
The setting was stupid, or the characters were stupid, e.g. Morgon as
moron? If the latter, I just want to point out that it is explained
later.
Have you tried her Firebird books? I really liked the Cygnet one.
Didn't care so much for the Sorceress one.
Clay Blankenship
> I don't think anyone mentioned Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn
> trilogy--which stetched into a tetrology. It starts slowly but gets much
> better. It is the most like Tolkien in involving journeys to dangerous
> places with a motley group of travelers and then alliances among various
> peoples against truly grisly evils. The plot is intricate and some of the
> characters gain considerable depth.
>
One of my favorites. I saw Tad Williams at a con and he thought of MST as
his "conversation with Tolkien". He wanted to write a similar-feeling
story, but do a few things differently. I believe the main thing he took
issue with was Tolkien's sense of loss from an idealized earlier age when
everything was grander (the current Men are only a shadow of the
Numenoreans, the Silmarils are gone, the old kingdoms have fallen into
ruin, the elves are departing, etc.). In any case, MST certainly has that
sense of epic scope, different (but original) races and cultures, and of
course, the quest to save the world.
Books I used to like (teenage years, mostly) more than I do now that have
some of these elements:
Raymond Feist, Riftwar Saga (4 books plus sequels, very D&D derivative)
--had elves, dwarves?, magic, and some great battle scenes
The next 2 are from TSR so have all the standard Tokienesque races
R.A. Salvatore, Icewind Dale (tetralogy?)--adventure and awesome swordplay
descriptions
Weiss and Hickman, Dragonlance chronicle--lots of fantasy world to explore
Stephen Donaldson, Chronicles of Thomas Covenant--I haven't read these
since the 80's but I still recall the richly detailed world and sense of
historical depth. More grim than the previous 3.
Current favorites for their epic scope and historical depth:
George R.R. Martin, _A Song of Ice and Fire_ (excellent writing and
characterization, very gritty world, no elves or dwarves but lots of
fighting and some magic)
Guy Gavriel Kay--anything. The Fionavar Tapestry is closest to Tolkien in
feel but the writing and characterization is much better in his later less
fantastic novels. Fionavar maybe tries to do too much--the King Arthur
subplot for example.
Robert Jordan, _Wheel of Time_ (but I wish he'd finish already!)--very
detailed world and epic plot. No elves or dwarves but the Ogier would be
right at home among the ents.
Robin Hobb, _Farseer_ (Assassin) books and _Liveship Traders_ (haven't read
the latest series)--Slightly less epic and less worldbuilding but good
fantasy storytelling.
--
Clay Blankenship Change 'Z' to 's' to reply
Monterey, CA
Stanislaus B.
wrote:
>
>
>David Bilek wrote:
>
>> He posts here from time to time and has described the process at some
>> length in the past.
>>
>> -David
>
>Wow. How smart do you have to be to realize that it's not a productive
>use of time to write a sequal to someone else's book ON SPEC???
He was in a full body cast at the time and nothing better to do, if I
remember right.
Damien Sullivan
I'll second Nancy's rec of Hodgell (Dark of the Gods (God Stalk + Dark of the
Moon), Seeker's Mask), but I'll try to match your criteria.
>1) Depth--of course, no one can match Tolkien's level, but when I say depth,
>I mean a well-defined world with an "epic sweep" feel to the novel.
I think it feels deep to me. Not everything's well defined to my
satisfaction, but the same is true of Tolkien, really. But there's a sense of
deep history, and lots of details, often thought out, often surprising.
>2) the novel must have a map of the fantasy world--simply put, if a book has
She's gone kind of crazy on the maps, especially with the new edition of
_Blood and Ivory_. A lot of her maps/art looks Tolkienish to me -- not in
copying Middle-Earth, not at all, just in drawing style, which is fine.
>3)detailed magic--To me, this is what separates fantasy from a historical
>novel. I like fantasy with a consistent magic "system". Ideally, magic
>should be somewhat rare and wondrous. I especially liked the sense of
"consistent" and "rare and wondrous" seem contradictory to me. Also I'd note
that Tolkien's magic wasn't so much rare as subtle. Or the wondrous stuff was
rare. But there's a lot of clairvoyance and mindreadng and visionary dreams
and prophecies and stuff all over. And dwarves know magic, contra much later
fiction. Not flashy spells, not elven magic, but items, and doors which open
on a certain day, and such.
Anyway, as Nancy said Hodgell's magic is more explicit, but I like it. Some
wondrous feel, I think... and not magic-as-technology like Brust.
>4) "the Tolkein feel"--I'm open to anything, but I feel very comfortable
>with elves/dwarves/dragons and such. It may be derivative, but to me, it's
Nope, not as such. But non-human races... the Kencyr _are_ a non-human race,
or at best a very odd breed, and somewhat like a variety of elves themselves.
The Kencyrath is/was made up of three or four or five non-human races, and
there are a bunch of odd things running around. Outdoes Tolkien in this
respect, I think, when we get to level of Goldberry or Mewlips.
>I believe that an author can easily write a series of stories that
>inter-connect without being like unfinished books. I am also very
I think she meets this. It's definitely a series, and a slowly produced
series, but the plot of each book is decently self-contained. The guy who
introduced me to Hodgell was almost disappointed that _God Stalk_ had sequels
-- not that he didn't like the sequels, but he thought it would have worked as
well as a standalone glimpse into this world, with the rest left to your
imagination.
-xx- Damien X-)
Lucius Chiaraviglio
>I'm hungry for more like this. LoTR is a unique classic, but I'd be
>interested in what books and authors are somewhat similar in
>spirit/tone/style/depth to LoTR. I know that the whole fantasy genre has
>been inspired by Tolkien, but what books have the same type of depth? I'll
>start by suggesting Dennis McKiernan's Mithgar books...what others?
This most definitely isn't exactly what you're looking for, and it
isn't a book, but it is a nice twist on what you're looking for, so you might
like it (if you can stand waiting for the slow server to display pages):
http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/funstuff/gaming/agg.html
--
Lucius Chiaraviglio
Approximate E-mail address: luci...@chapter.net
To get the exact address: ^^^ ^replace this with 'r'
|||
replace this with single digit meaning the same thing
(Spambots of Doom, take that!).
..
>I'm hungry for more like this. LoTR is a unique classic, but I'd be
>interested in what books and authors are somewhat similar in
>spirit/tone/style/depth to LoTR. I know that the whole fantasy genre has
>been inspired by Tolkien, but what books have the same type of depth?
I'll
>start by suggesting Dennis McKiernan's Mithgar books...what others?
You've read the Narnia series already, I trust?
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Colin Chock
Gormenghast Trilogy. Mervyn Peake
JWB
Try the Iron Tower Trilogy (or something like that)
JB