David Feintuch's _Hope_ series
LizSnider
to me as similar to Heinlein's sci-fi, or as the woman
at the bookstore said, "He's like Heinlein on downers."
I didn't realize from that, although perhaps I should
have, how incredibly depressing the books are. I've
read the first four books now (_Midshipman's Hope_,
_Challenger's Hope_, _Prisoner's Hope_, _Fisherman's
Hope_) and have the fifth on my bookshelf, but am
reluctant to read it. I read the first four hoping that
EVENTUALLY Nicholas Seafort would have a happy
ending, or at least a period of happiness that lasted
more than a year!
Has anyone else read this series, and can you tell me
whether _Voices of Hope_ has a happy ending, or at
least one not as incredibly depressing as the last
three books? To make a horrid pun, I'd like to have
hope that Seafort lives happily ever after, and if
_Voices_ is as depressing as the other novels, I think
I'd just as soon leave it unread.
Thanks in advance for any help!
Liz
Here you go: have a world of wealth and poverty, wrenching change and rooted
history ... Endure pain, find joy, and make your own meaning, because the
universe certainly isn't going to supply it ... Live. Live. Live. -- Capt.
Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan
James Gassaway
: I picked up this author because he was recommended
: to me as similar to Heinlein's sci-fi, or as the woman
: at the bookstore said, "He's like Heinlein on downers."
:
: I didn't realize from that, although perhaps I should
: have, how incredibly depressing the books are. I've
: read the first four books now (_Midshipman's Hope_,
: _Challenger's Hope_, _Prisoner's Hope_, _Fisherman's
: Hope_) and have the fifth on my bookshelf, but am
: reluctant to read it. I read the first four hoping that
: EVENTUALLY Nicholas Seafort would have a happy
: ending, or at least a period of happiness that lasted
: more than a year!
:
: Has anyone else read this series, and can you tell me
: whether _Voices of Hope_ has a happy ending, or at
: least one not as incredibly depressing as the last
: three books? To make a horrid pun, I'd like to have
: hope that Seafort lives happily ever after, and if
: _Voices_ is as depressing as the other novels, I think
: I'd just as soon leave it unread.
:
: Thanks in advance for any help!
:
: Liz
Well, Nicholas Seafort is not the main character of _Voices_. The book is
... less depressing than the rest. (BTW your charactization is a common
complaint about the series.) Since you've read the previous four books, I
would say go ahead and read the last one. Just be aware that _Voices_
isn't really the fifth book in a series, it's another book set in the same
universe.
--
Dimensional Traveler
Commander - WarForce Omega (The Star Killers), Multiversal Mercenaries
'You name it, we kill it, any time, any reality.'
Gareth Wilson
>
> I didn't realize from that, although perhaps I should
> have, how incredibly depressing the books are. I've
> read the first four books now (_Midshipman's Hope_,
> _Challenger's Hope_, _Prisoner's Hope_, _Fisherman's
> Hope_) and have the fifth on my bookshelf, but am
> reluctant to read it.
"Prisoners Hope" wasn't too bad. He doesn't have to kill or torture
quite so many people...
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gareth Wilson
Christchurch
New Zealand
e-mail gr...@student.canterbury.ac.nz
"A cesspool of smoking, cursing, and poor vocabulary"
-Jimmy Bakker on prison
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sakura
LizSnider <lizs...@aol.com> wrote:
>I picked up this author because he was recommended
>to me as similar to Heinlein's sci-fi, or as the woman
>at the bookstore said, "He's like Heinlein on downers."
>
>have, how incredibly depressing the books are.
>
>whether _Voices of Hope_ has a happy ending, or at
>least one not as incredibly depressing as the last
>three books?
Well...no fairytale happy ending, certainly, but it's not quite as
depressing.
There is a sixth book coming out, _Patriarch's Hope_. Personally, I'm
going to wait until it's in paperback, or possibly even at the used
bookstore.
J
--
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - je...@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Rich Clark
>Has anyone else read this series, and can you tell me
>whether _Voices of Hope_ has a happy ending, or at
>least one not as incredibly depressing as the last
>three books? To make a horrid pun, I'd like to have
>hope that Seafort lives happily ever after, and if
>_Voices_ is as depressing as the other novels, I think
>I'd just as soon leave it unread.
I can't tell you about the ending, because I couldn't finish it.
I hung with the four Nick books mostly because my life, despite four
heart attacks, diabetes, ankle reconstruction, the deaths of both
parents, and assorted other bad luck of recent years, is a bed of
roses compared to Seafort's. I may be one of the few readers who was
cheered up by this series. <g>
The "fifth" book (not really part of the main series) is so affected
stylistically that I simply couldn't abide it. Too much work for too
small a payoff. The use of so much invented vernacular, and the
attempt to write so much accented dialogue, just didn't work for me.
I wanted subtitles, or a translator.
There might have been a worthwhile story in there, but the author
erected too many barriers between it and me.
RichC
Zara Baxter
>LizSnider (lizs...@aol.com) wrote:
>: I didn't realize from that, although perhaps I should
>: have, how incredibly depressing the books are. I've
>: read the first four books now (_Midshipman's Hope_,
>: _Challenger's Hope_, _Prisoner's Hope_, _Fisherman's
>: Hope_) and have the fifth on my bookshelf, but am
>: reluctant to read it. I read the first four hoping that
>: EVENTUALLY Nicholas Seafort would have a happy
>: ending, or at least a period of happiness that lasted
>: more than a year!
>Well, Nicholas Seafort is not the main character of _Voices_. The book is
>... less depressing than the rest. (BTW your charactization is a common
>complaint about the series.) Since you've read the previous four books, I
>would say go ahead and read the last one. Just be aware that _Voices_
>isn't really the fifth book in a series, it's another book set in the same
>universe.
Depressing books?
*ears perk up*
Another to add to my "to read" list. Damn.
Zara
Samuel Paik
> Depressing books?
>
> *ears perk up*
>
> Another to add to my "to read" list. Damn.
Then you may want to check Feintuch's standalone, _The Still_.
Sam
--
Samuel S. Paik | http://www.webnexus.com/users/paik/
3D and multimedia, architecture and implementation
Solyent Green is kitniyot!
Ernest Sjogren
>I picked up this author because he was recommended
>to me as similar to Heinlein's sci-fi, or as the woman
>at the bookstore said, "He's like Heinlein on downers."
>
<snip>
>Has anyone else read this series, and can you tell me
>whether _Voices of Hope_ has a happy ending, or at
>least one not as incredibly depressing as the last
>three books? To make a horrid pun, I'd like to have
>hope that Seafort lives happily ever after, and if
>_Voices_ is as depressing as the other novels, I think
>I'd just as soon leave it unread.
>
I'm surely not the first to say this: Read it. The other four I
haven't read, bur _Voices of Hope_ I have. It's a good story and
quite reminiscent of Heinlein. The protagonist is Seafort's son, but
Seafort plays an important role at the end of the book, which I don't
remember as a downer at all. I enjoyed the story very much -- enough
to send a copy to my brother, who's a Heinlein fan. He also thought
it was great.
>Thanks in advance for any help!
My pleasure.
-- Ernie Sjogren
Thomas Bagwell
> Depressing books?
>
> *ears perk up*
>
> Another to add to my "to read" list. Damn.
It isn't the depression so much as the whining... Depressing? Oh,
yeah. Irritating and annoying? Even more so. I was only able to take
so much brooding and self-pity. In his own way he was even worse than
Thomas Covenant. How would you like to be trapped in a room with
those two characters?
Tom B.
Corinna Mergelsberg
Which reminds me. _Patriarch's Hope_ is due out later this year, does
anybody have an idea what it is about and how it fits in?
Corinna
merge...@metronet.de
******************************************************
Ein Wort, ein Satz-: aus Chiffren steigen
erkanntes Leben, jaeher Sinn,
die Sonne steht, die Sphaeren schweigen
und alles ballt sich zu ihm hin.
(Gottfried Benn)
Sakura
Well, while I wouldn't want to be trapped in a room with either one, I've
got to say that I at least understand Covenant and why he is the way he
is. That, for me, made the CoTCtU readable.
David Feintuch
> whether _Voices of Hope_ has a happy ending, or at
> least one not as incredibly depressing as the last
> three books? To make a horrid pun, I'd like to have
> hope that Seafort lives happily ever after, and if
> _Voices_ is as depressing as the other novels, I think
> I'd just as soon leave it unread.
Liz,
Well, I've read it, and I certainly think Voices is more upbeat
than its predecessors. Nick Seafort has mellowed considerably as he's
aged. And, for another thing, he isn't the narrator, so his self-doubt
is
somewhat muted. Give it a try.
--
David Feintuch web page: www.cris.com/~writeman
Author of:
PATRIARCH'S HOPE (New in April '99)
MIDSHIPMAN'S HOPE CHALLENGER'S HOPE
PRISONER'S HOPE FISHERMAN'S HOPE
VOICES OF HOPE
THE STILL
David Feintuch
>
> Sam
Hey, _I_ found it exhilarating. I suppose the question is,
what do you mean by "depressing". I abhor fantasies, or novels, in
which everything is guaranteed to come out hunky-dory for all the
good guys in a Disneyesque-ending sense. In real life, sad things
happen to good people, and the drama is in how they, or those
around them cope with it. The Still definitely ended on an upper,
as did Voices of Hope.
Pete McCutchen
<tnba...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Zara Baxter wrote:
>> Depressing books?
>>
>> *ears perk up*
>>
>> Another to add to my "to read" list. Damn.
>
>It isn't the depression so much as the whining... Depressing? Oh,
>yeah. Irritating and annoying? Even more so. I was only able to take
>so much brooding and self-pity. In his own way he was even worse than
>Thomas Covenant. How would you like to be trapped in a room with
>those two characters?
>
Don't _do_ that.
I'm going to be having nightmares for months.
David Feintuch
> Which reminds me. _Patriarch's Hope_ is due out later this year, does
> anybody have an idea what it is about and how it fits in?
Actually, Patriartch's Hope began shipping yesterday. It will
reach shelves any moment now. It's another Seafort book, narrated by
him. It takes place some years after the end of Voices of Hope, can be
read
as a stand-alone, and shows a considerably-mellowed Seafort. When
written,
it was meant to be the last-ever Seafort book.
Sakura
>Corinna Mergelsberg wrote:
>
>> Which reminds me. _Patriarch's Hope_ is due out later this year, does
>> anybody have an idea what it is about and how it fits in?
>
> Actually, Patriartch's Hope began shipping yesterday.
Hi Dave! from a fellow Earlham grad.
Does that little teaser mean that there are, in fact, more Seafort books
coming after _Patriarch_?
Marcel
Patriarch's Hope according to Kirkus (through Amazon.com):
[..] Lots of emotional nurturingit helps disguise the brutal floggings still
prevalent in this man's Navypoliticking, and religion, but limited action:
okay for the teenaged target audience, of little interest otherwise. --
Copyright ©1919, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved.
Teenaged target audience......... Hah! I don't agree. I already bought
it............
Marcel
>Corinna Mergelsberg wrote:
>
>> Which reminds me. _Patriarch's Hope_ is due out later this year, does
>> anybody have an idea what it is about and how it fits in?
>
> Actually, Patriartch's Hope began shipping yesterday. It will
>reach shelves any moment now. It's another Seafort book, narrated by
>him. It takes place some years after the end of Voices of Hope, can be
>read
>as a stand-alone, and shows a considerably-mellowed Seafort. When
>written,
>it was meant to be the last-ever Seafort book.
>
MRS1956
reservations, since several people had given it only mediocre reviews. But I
knew I really liked the Seafort series. I just wish this fantasy world would
become a series. I felt the ending left me hanging.
Zara Baxter
wrote:
>Zara Baxter wrote:
>> Depressing books?
>>
>> *ears perk up*
>>
>> Another to add to my "to read" list. Damn.
>
>Then you may want to check Feintuch's standalone, _The Still_.
I did.. after reading some of the reviews in rasfw after it had just
come out. I rather enjoyed it too.. parts of it were a little fluffy
bunny, but the overall attitude of the protagonist is quite
refreshing. He's so sure his position is hopless at some points, that
you actually think it *might* be hopeless.
mm.
I keep seeing noe or two of the hope books, but haven't seen them all
at once, so have avoided.. now I figure it's worth it.
Zara
Thomas Bagwell
>In article <7fmfc8$9a7$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
>Thomas Bagwell <tnba...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>Zara Baxter wrote:
>>> Depressing books?
>>> *ears perk up*
>>> Another to add to my "to read" list. Damn.
>>
>>yeah. Irritating and annoying? Even more so. I was only able to
take
>>so much brooding and self-pity. In his own way he was even worse
than
>>Thomas Covenant. How would you like to be trapped in a room with
>>those two characters?
>
I've
>got to say that I at least understand Covenant and why he is the way
he
>is. That, for me, made the CoTCtU readable.
I can agree with that. I even will...
Tom B.
M w stone
>Patriarch's Hope according to Kirkus (through Amazon.com):
>
>[..] Lots of emotional nurturingit helps disguise the brutal floggings still
>prevalent in this man's Navy
What was his problem about the brutal floggings?
Is there any reason to suppose that 1990s attitudes to matters like corporal
punishment are necessarily permanent?
At least (afaik) Feintuch's world doesn't use the impaling stake
Mike Stone - Peterborough England
Last words of King Edward II.
"I always said that Roger Mortimer was a pain in the - - -A AARGHH!!!
Gareth Wilson
>
> Hey, _I_ found it exhilarating. I suppose the question is,
> what do you mean by "depressing". I abhor fantasies, or novels, in
> which everything is guaranteed to come out hunky-dory for all the
> good guys in a Disneyesque-ending sense. In real life, sad things
> happen to good people, and the drama is in how they, or those
> around them cope with it.
I think the reason the Hope books seem so depressing is because of the
viewpoint character. Looked at from the outside, he's a tactical and
organisational genius on the level of Miles Vorkosigan, and he's
achieved stunning successes in the Fish War. But he considers himself a
hopeless screw-up and mortal sinner, lurching from one crisis to the
next and leaving a trail of bodies in his wake. I'd hope that in the
later books (I've only read up to "Prisoner's") he gains a little
self-esteem and recognises that he _isn't_ a hopeless loser.
Andrew Plotkin
> David Feintuch wrote:
> >
> > Hey, _I_ found it exhilarating. I suppose the question is,
> > what do you mean by "depressing". I abhor fantasies, or novels, in
> > which everything is guaranteed to come out hunky-dory for all the
> > good guys in a Disneyesque-ending sense. In real life, sad things
> > happen to good people, and the drama is in how they, or those
> > around them cope with it.
> I think the reason the Hope books seem so depressing is because of the
> viewpoint character. Looked at from the outside, he's a tactical and
> organisational genius on the level of Miles Vorkosigan, and he's
> achieved stunning successes in the Fish War. But he considers himself a
> hopeless screw-up and mortal sinner, lurching from one crisis to the
> next and leaving a trail of bodies in his wake. I'd hope that in the
> later books (I've only read up to "Prisoner's") he gains a little
> self-esteem and recognises that he _isn't_ a hopeless loser.
You can hope that....
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Janet Cone
<tnba...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Zara Baxter wrote:
>> Depressing books?
>>
>> *ears perk up*
>>
>> Another to add to my "to read" list. Damn.
>
>It isn't the depression so much as the whining... Depressing? Oh,
>yeah. Irritating and annoying? Even more so. I was only able to take
>so much brooding and self-pity. In his own way he was even worse than
>Thomas Covenant. How would you like to be trapped in a room with
>those two characters?
Of the two I would rather be stuck with Covenant. I only made it
through 2 of the Seafort books before I gave up in disgust.
|\ _,,,---,,_ Janet (and Berelain) |
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
David Feintuch
>
> Patriarch's Hope according to Kirkus (through Amazon.com):
>
> [..] Lots of emotional nurturingit helps disguise the brutal floggings still
> okay for the teenaged target audience, of little interest otherwise. --
> Copyright ©1919, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved.
>
> Teenaged target audience......... Hah! I don't agree. I already bought
> it............
>
Generally,
reviewers have been quite kind to my books, and they, on the whole, have
been
sour and negative. That "targetted teenage audience" bit totally
mystifies
me. If any book definitely wasn't written for young teenagers, it's
Patriarch's Hope.
Hope you lik eit.
David Feintuch
>
> >From: "Marcel" <mar...@nimitz.demon.nl>
>
> >Patriarch's Hope according to Kirkus (through Amazon.com):
> >
> >[..] Lots of emotional nurturingit helps disguise the brutal floggings still
>
> What was his problem about the brutal floggings?
>
> Is there any reason to suppose that 1990s attitudes to matters like corporal
> punishment are necessarily permanent?
>
Hope, there is NOT ONE flogging, brutal or otherwise? Ah, well. There
is
mention made, at one point, of a British-public-school type caning. I
suppose that for Kirkus's 1990's reviewer, that was simply too ghastly
to
contemplate.
Hope you like the book.
David Feintuch
There is a second and concluding book half-written. When I finished The
Still, I
knew there was room for more, but I tried very hard not to leave you
hanging.
While the fate of the kingdom remains undecided, Roddy's emotional
growth is
completed, and he leaves as a more mature, resolved, confident adult.
John Scott
wrote:
> Well, while I wouldn't want to be trapped in a room with either one, I've
> got to say that I at least understand Covenant and why he is the way he
> is. That, for me, made the CoTCtU readable.
>
And, for the same reasons, I enjoyed (no, that's the wrong word),
appreciated the Hope books.
Nick Seafort is an incredibly able person trying to live up to
impossibly high standards and aware that he is failing to meet them a
lot of the time.
He does a lot of (to him) quite reprehensible stuff, because he is torn
between two conflicting loyalties - his oath to the Navy and his
morals. A 'normal' person might well try and subsume one loyalty into
the other. He can't, and crucifies himself for trying to do what is
impossible.
One loyalty says "Thou shalt not kill" the other says "discipline
abourd ship is more important than the life of a mutineer".
Nick Seafort should never have been in the Navy - then perhaps he would
have had a happy life. The sad fact is that he was, and thus had to
face conflict.
And conflict drives drama.
My 0/0/2.
John
LizSnider
>"depressing". I abhor fantasies, or novels, in
>which everything is guaranteed to come out hunky-dory
> for all the good guys in a Disneyesque-ending
>sense. In real life, sad things happen to good people,
>and the drama is in how they, or those around them
>as did Voices of Hope.
>
>--
>David Feintuch
Well, what I found depressing about the first four "Hope"
books wasn't that bad things happened, but that Seafort
was so constantly torn up about everything that happened,
and never seemed to find any happiness in his sucesses,
although most of his victories were definitly Pyrrhic. I
just hated how his happiness was so brief, on the rare
occasion that he was happy. I'm glad to hear that Voices
and The Still have a more upbeat ending ... I've bought
them because I enjoyed the first books so much, but
was reluctant to read them if I'd use up as many tissues
as I did the first four Seafort books *g*
I guess I somewhat disagree with you on the happy
endings though ... I know horrid things happen to people
in real life, that's why I read fiction -- even if bad things
happen in a novel, ususally one is assured of a happy
ending eventually. That's why I persisted with the Seafort
saga as long as I did before stopping ... I kept hoping that
eventually Nick would have a happy ending. He was so
valient in how he coped with all the tragedies around him,
I kept hoping that _eventually_ he'd be happy for a while.
I really do enjoy these books, though, and look forward
to reading the final two Hope books as well as The Still.
Matthew Campbell
>
> On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:25:13 -0500, "Thomas Bagwell"
> <tnba...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >so much brooding and self-pity. In his own way he was even worse than
> >Thomas Covenant. How would you like to be trapped in a room with
> >those two characters?
>
> Of the two I would rather be stuck with Covenant. I only made it
> through 2 of the Seafort books before I gave up in disgust.
You forget that Nick only whines on the _inside_. If you were stuck in
a room with him, all you would ever see would be a competent,
intelligent individual devoting all his efforts into getting the two of
you out of the room you're stuck in. And he'd be willing to remain
trapped himself, if that's what it took to get you free.
Of course, on the inside he'd be one big morass of self-pity and
self-loathing. You'd never have to see it, though.
--
Matthew Campbell
"Margaret's explanation, which I liked better, was that you
had to learn a culture until you knew whether the person on
the other side of the table was following a cultural norm
different from yours, or just an asshole."
- EARTH MADE OF GLASS by John Barnes
Elio M. Garcia, Jr.
> You forget that Nick only whines on the _inside_. If you were stuck in
> a room with him, all you would ever see would be a competent,
> intelligent individual devoting all his efforts into getting the two of
> you out of the room you're stuck in. And he'd be willing to remain
> trapped himself, if that's what it took to get you free.
The down side of this is that he'd probably escape and you'd be left
behind despite his heruclean efforts to the contrary. Then he'd have one
more thing to bemoan. ;)
Haven't commented on this thread yet, so I'll just put in that I
enjoyed the series and the characters.
Richard I. Pelletier
rdclark...@SPAMTRAPacnatsci.org (Rich Clark) wrote:
> The "fifth" book (not really part of the main series) is so affected
> stylistically that I simply couldn't abide it. Too much work for too
> small a payoff. The use of so much invented vernacular, and the
> attempt to write so much accented dialogue, just didn't work for me.
After blasting through the first four as fast as I could, I came to a
screeching halt on "Voices..." for the same reason: the language slowed
my reading speed terribly. I made it through it, but it was work. But I
do mean to go back and reread it.
As I have already reread the first four, and "The Still".
Vale,
Rip
--
Richard I. Pelletier
Death before dishonor; nothing before coffee.
NB eddress: r i p 1 [at] h o m e [dot] c o m
Richard I. Pelletier
> Actually, Patriartch's Hope began shipping yesterday. It will
> reach shelves any moment now.
Kewl! I'll call my bookstores today.
I started Midshipman's Hope at about 6pm on a Saturday night. I turned
out the light at 3 am, halfway thru Prisoner's Hope. (I'm very lucky: I
read close to 100 pages an hour in comfort.) I started Fisherman's Hope
about noon Sunday, then "lost" 10 hours to the California Shakespeare
Festival, and dinner and movie with friends. Then I finshed FH about 1
am.
I read the series in 31 hours wall-clock time, about 17 hours of which
was reading. Now if I'd known that I wasn't going to be able to stop
once I started, I'd have begun it at 8 am Saturday morning, and could
have finished it by bedtime. OK, a late bedtime.
This is a long-winded way of saying, "Thank you very much! I couldn't
stop." For me, this was the written equivalent of "Raiders of the Lost
Ark", or "Star Wars": so _this_ is how this kind of story should be
done!
Ernest Sjogren
<snip>
>After blasting through the first four as fast as I could, I came to a
>screeching halt on "Voices..." for the same reason: the language slowed
>my reading speed terribly. I made it through it, but it was work. But I
>do mean to go back and reread it.
>
Hmmm ... I'd forgotten about the language. But now that you mention
it -- for me it was a minor but definite plus for the book. I assume
you're talking about "kanza" (or however it was spelled) and the other
coinages of the street language. It was clever, a lot of fun (for me,
at least), and it definitely kept the reader on his (or her) toes.
Small beans compared to other good things in the book, but a good
thing nevertheless.
However, I must admit I had trouble with the writing in the first
chapter or three. I didn't analyze what I kept stumbling over, but
something didn't sit well with my usual reading style. In fact, I put
the book down for a few weeks because of this. Either the writing
changed or I did, as I had no trouble "inhaling" the rest of the book
when I went back to it, doggedly reread the first chapters, and then
sailed happily on.
-- Ernie Sjogren
Richard I. Pelletier
Sjogren) wrote:
> something didn't sit well with my usual reading style. In fact, I put
> the book down for a few weeks because of this.
Aye, that's what I did: put the book down for N weeks (I have forgotten
the value of N), then picked it up when the pain of not knowing what
was in it outweighed the dimly-remembered pain of reading a foreign
dialect. And I guess it went easier for being expected the second time.
vale,
Rich Clark
<bitb...@home.com> wrote:
>In article <372221a7.432138266@FUBAR>, sjog...@mindspring.com (Ernest
>Sjogren) wrote:
>
>> something didn't sit well with my usual reading style. In fact, I put
>> the book down for a few weeks because of this.
>
>Aye, that's what I did: put the book down for N weeks (I have forgotten
>the value of N), then picked it up when the pain of not knowing what
>was in it outweighed the dimly-remembered pain of reading a foreign
>dialect. And I guess it went easier for being expected the second time.
Maybe I'll try it again. But I'm an even less patient person now than
I was then.
RichC
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Steve Moss
Gareth Wilson wrote:
> David Feintuch wrote:
> >
> > Hey, _I_ found it exhilarating. I suppose the question is,
> > what do you mean by "depressing". I abhor fantasies, or novels, in
> > which everything is guaranteed to come out hunky-dory for all the
> > good guys in a Disneyesque-ending sense. In real life, sad things
> > happen to good people, and the drama is in how they, or those
> > around them cope with it.
>
> I think the reason the Hope books seem so depressing is because of the
> viewpoint character. Looked at from the outside, he's a tactical and
> organisational genius on the level of Miles Vorkosigan, and he's
> achieved stunning successes in the Fish War. But he considers himself a
> hopeless screw-up and mortal sinner, lurching from one crisis to the
> next and leaving a trail of bodies in his wake. I'd hope that in the
> later books (I've only read up to "Prisoner's") he gains a little
> self-esteem and recognises that he _isn't_ a hopeless loser.
I like the way the main character envisions himself. It's a refreshing
change in fantasy and is very reminiscient of Forester's Hornblower. One
example, Hornblower sinks three Spanish ships, all larger than his, before
striking his colors with a decimated crew, refuses to give his parole when
captured and then escapes with a few men, capturing a French ship in the
process. Returns to England expecting to be court-martialed and hung for
surrendering.. Of course, like Seafort, he's hailed as a hero when he gets
home.
Too many fantasy heros are super-competent with no 'weaker' traits (or
contrives weaknesses which don't really effect his overall performance).
Its refreshing to see characters such as Seafort.
I loved all the Seafort books with the exception of Voices, which may be a
great book but I haven't yet managed to get through it. Mostly because I
can't find a character that I like, even partly. Seafort's scenes, at
least at this point of my reading, are pretty rare. Of the kids, I can't
help but think they all need a huge thrashing (or prompt enrollment as
midshipmen).
Steve Moss
Steve Moss
MRS1956 wrote:
> Concerning The Still, I thought it was a great read. I picked it up with some
> reservations, since several people had given it only mediocre reviews. But I
> knew I really liked the Seafort series. I just wish this fantasy world would
> become a series. I felt the ending left me hanging.
I liked Fientuch's writing in the Still. He tells a story well. I also liked the
kingdom/world. I liked the main character's growth from spoiled brat to confident
(at least he's learned to suck it up and look it on the surface)
warrior/politician.
I despised the main character's personal relationship. Both for personal reasons
and because I thought it contradictory or senseless. I would have been much
happier if Rodrigo's mentor had been split into two seperate characters. Some of
the implications (maybe I'm reading too much into it) made me definately
uncomfortable. Which is why I recommend it, but only to more mature readers.
I will buy the sequel.
Steve Moss
Joseph Major
: I think the reason the Hope books seem so depressing is because of the
: viewpoint character. Looked at from the outside, he's a tactical and
: organisational genius on the level of Miles Vorkosigan, and he's
: achieved stunning successes in the Fish War. But he considers himself a
: hopeless screw-up and mortal sinner, lurching from one crisis to the
: next and leaving a trail of bodies in his wake. I'd hope that in the
: later books (I've only read up to "Prisoner's") he gains a little
: self-esteem and recognises that he _isn't_ a hopeless loser.
Nightmare:
Feintuch and Stephen Donaldson decide to collaborate.
Nick Seafort meets Thomas Covenant.
Conjunction of such masses of depression and self-loathing
creates pan-metaversical black hole.
Everything gets sucked in, all universes come to an end.
Now that's a . . . cosmic . . . idea, isn't it?
Joseph T Major
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Yrlsqb nx sobshuggum illingoon. Mark my words!"
-- Cyril Q. Kornbluth
--
mi...@okcforum.org
: Gareth Wilson wrote:
: : I think the reason the Hope books seem so depressing is because of the
: : viewpoint character. Looked at from the outside, he's a tactical and
: : organisational genius on the level of Miles Vorkosigan, and he's
: : achieved stunning successes in the Fish War. But he considers himself a
: : hopeless screw-up and mortal sinner, lurching from one crisis to the
: : next and leaving a trail of bodies in his wake. I'd hope that in the
: : later books (I've only read up to "Prisoner's") he gains a little
: : self-esteem and recognises that he _isn't_ a hopeless loser.
: Nightmare:
: Feintuch and Stephen Donaldson decide to collaborate.
: Nick Seafort meets Thomas Covenant.
: Conjunction of such masses of depression and self-loathing
: creates pan-metaversical black hole.
: Everything gets sucked in, all universes come to an end.
: Now that's a . . . cosmic . . . idea, isn't it?
Well, folks, I got my copy of _Patriarch's Hope_ last night,
and now am about halfway through it.[1] Our Hero still reads
very high on the Self-Loathing meter. Why do I suspect that
if I told him to get a life, he'd ask, "Whose?"
Pace, David F. It's still a good read, and I'm happy to have
contributed to your $BEVERAGE fund, but did you have to
incorporate Hornblower's self-disgust and self-loathing
so very completely into Nick Seafort?
I'm depressed already, despite the massive doses of Effexor.
I read books to have a good time, not to get more depressed.
--
Mike Andrews
Tired old sysadmin
mi...@okcforum.org
[1] Damn jobs, anyway. People expect you to do things when you
obviously should be reading the new book.
James Nicoll
>Joseph Major <jtm...@iglou.com> wrote:
>
>Well, folks, I got my copy of _Patriarch's Hope_ last night,
>and now am about halfway through it.[1] Our Hero still reads
>very high on the Self-Loathing meter. Why do I suspect that
>if I told him to get a life, he'd ask, "Whose?"
>
>Pace, David F. It's still a good read, and I'm happy to have
>contributed to your $BEVERAGE fund, but did you have to
>incorporate Hornblower's self-disgust and self-loathing
>so very completely into Nick Seafort?
>
>I'm depressed already, despite the massive doses of Effexor.
>I read books to have a good time, not to get more depressed.
I find old Seafort an antidepressant: no matter how bad
things get, I did not get saddled with a worldview and set of
obligations which doom me to self loathing the way Seafort
did.
James Nicoll
--
"Can i have my midlife crisis now while I am young and agile enough
to enjoy it?"
David Feintuch
> Well, folks, I got my copy of _Patriarch's Hope_ last night,
> and now am about halfway through it.[1] Our Hero still reads
> very high on the Self-Loathing meter. Why do I suspect that
> if I told him to get a life, he'd ask, "Whose?"
>
> Pace, David F. It's still a good read, and I'm happy to have
> contributed to your $BEVERAGE fund, but did you have to
> incorporate Hornblower's self-disgust and self-loathing
> so very completely into Nick Seafort?
Actually, Mike, I'm surprised you have that read on
him. In Patriarchg's Hope, Nick Seafort is considerably
mellowed, and has far more self-confidence than before. Not
to mention a greater sense of humor about himself.
In any event, thank you for the donation to the
beverage fund :)
REPLY TO WRIT...@CRIS.COM, NOT ABOVE ADDRESS!
HMS Lion
much worse.
Horatio Hornblower is dogged by bad luck that prevents him from receiving the
tangible rewards for his acts until late in his career, and is worried thereby,
but never loses faith in himself. He doubts himself because his standards are
high, but never fails to meet them.
Nicolas Seafort is a man who has, by his own lights, damned himself several
times over. His victories are bought at tremendous personal cost (which is the
main virtue of the first four books - they illustrate The Destruction of
Nicolas Seafort in a highly dramatic manner).
And that is the difference between the two.
V/R:
Michael McDaniel
Paula S. Sanch
> Nightmare:
> Feintuch and Stephen Donaldson decide to collaborate.
> Nick Seafort meets Thomas Covenant.
> Conjunction of such masses of depression and self-loathing
> creates pan-metaversical black hole.
> Everything gets sucked in, all universes come to an end.
>
> Now that's a . . . cosmic . . . idea, isn't it?
It isn't often I encounter ideas that spark "I wish *I'd* thought of
that." However, this is definitely one of them, quite possibly the
best of the decade.
I struggled through all six books of Thomas Covenant in the mid-80s at
the behest of a fellow worker who thought they were marvelous. Since
we had many SF likes in common, I kept thinking that surely it would
get better. It never did, only worse.
As best I can remember, some 3-4 years after the fact, I bought the
entire set of 5 Hope novels to wunst. Thinking about it, I believe it
was in response to someone's enthusiastic partisanship in this venue.
I read 'em all (I guess there's a masochist buried somewhere inside),
and gave 'em away. I did not destroy them; the quality of the writing
itself is excellent. Nevertheless, I can't imagine that I will ever,
no matter what the incentive, purchase another book by either of these
authors. I read to escape my own pain, not to endure someone else's.
I'm disabled by degenerative osteoarthritis, and it takes six Pain
Clinic visits a year plus narcotics to keep me barely sane.
The only other author who has even approached the heights of these two
authors on my "don't buy" list is Lackey. My first encounter was the
Herald Mage series. And at least the first two books weren't so bad,
but I just hate universes where entropy impinges on the morals and
cultures of its denizens. I refuse to believe that Good can only
fight losing battles. Let's keep entropy in physics, where it
belongs.
I don't mind some angst. I'm a big fan of Bujold and Mary Doria
Russell, and neither of them hesitates to put their characters through
some pretty awful stuff. However, there's hope in the end (and maybe
even a little joy and happiness), and it's not a chimera, and it's not
solely in the title.
Paula
"When I get a little money, I buy books.
And if any is left, I buy food and clothes." - Erasmus
Zara Bee
>>Joseph Major wrote:
>>
>>> Nightmare:
>>> Feintuch and Stephen Donaldson decide to collaborate.
>>> Nick Seafort meets Thomas Covenant.
>
>NOOOOOO!!!! NOOOOOOO!!!! PLEASE, GOD, NOOOOOO!!!!!
>
>Man, THAT one REALLY broke my brain.
ITYM "literally". HTH. HAND.
*snicker*
*ducks incoming pedants*
Zara
Steve Moss
Otto wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Jun 1999 23:22:54 GMT, p.s...@nospam.voyager.net (Paula S.
> Sanch) wrote:
>
> >Joseph Major wrote:
> >
> >> Nightmare:
> >> Feintuch and Stephen Donaldson decide to collaborate.
> >> Nick Seafort meets Thomas Covenant.
snip
> Man, THAT one REALLY broke my brain.
>
> >As best I can remember, some 3-4 years after the fact, I bought the
> >entire set of 5 Hope novels to wunst. Thinking about it, I believe it
> >was in response to someone's enthusiastic partisanship in this venue.
> >I read 'em all (I guess there's a masochist buried somewhere inside),
(snip)
> I agree! That's one of the things that bugs me about the books, and
> gives me a vague sense of guilt whenever I think about them (so I try
> not to do that too often.) They're _well-made_ _books_. It's just
> that their protagonist's outlook is so unremittingly _negative_ that
> it's no _fun_ to read!
Actually, that's why I found it fun to read. Heroic characters often live
unhappy lives and die tragically. I personally think we need more such
characters in sci-fi/fantasy.
Steve Moss
Steve Moss
Otto wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Jun 1999 02:05:23 GMT, Steve Moss <ste...@ctaz.com> wrote:
>
> >> I agree! That's one of the things that bugs me about the books, and
> >> gives me a vague sense of guilt whenever I think about them (so I try
> >> not to do that too often.) They're _well-made_ _books_. It's just
> >> that their protagonist's outlook is so unremittingly _negative_ that
> >> it's no _fun_ to read!
> >
> >Actually, that's why I found it fun to read. Heroic characters often live
> >unhappy lives and die tragically. I personally think we need more such
> >characters in sci-fi/fantasy.
>
> I dunno. It seems that if you take your average person, they "live an
> unhappy life" and "die tragically", at least on their own terms.
> People like to read about superhuman characters doing amazing things
> and living happily ever after because, vicariously, they imagine
> _themselves_ doing the same things. Books where the main viewpoint is
> a chronic depressive only drag you down.
>
> (Now, I don't mind having some 'depressive' characters in a story for
> _contrast_. I just don't like it when the tone of the story _itself_
> is cynical and nasty.)
On the other hand, superhuman characters that are pre-destined for a happy
ending will make me throw a book across the room in disgust.
I really dislike superhuman characters, prefering the viewpoint of the simple
soldier or sailor, though I admit to a prefernce for a "competent" main
character.
As for unhappy endings, look at the Alamo, Thermopylea, etc... People are
often heroic becuase they fight impossible odds. And while they may lose, they
become near legendary in the process.
That's what I find inspiring. Not the mighty thewed barbarian or
ultra-powerful wizard.
Steve Moss
Martin Wisse
>On the other hand, superhuman characters that are pre-destined for a happy
>ending will make me throw a book across the room in disgust.
For me, it depends. When the writer makes it too easy for his characters
it irritates me, but i don't mind knowing 800 pages in advance that good
is going to triumph.
>I really dislike superhuman characters, prefering the viewpoint of the simple
>soldier or sailor, though I admit to a prefernce for a "competent" main
>character.
>As for unhappy endings, look at the Alamo, Thermopylea, etc... People are
>often heroic becuase they fight impossible odds. And while they may lose, they
>become near legendary in the process.
But they didn't *whine* about it. The problem with Covenant is that he's
such a miserable little git, not that he loses.
Martin Wisse
Steve Moss
Martin Wisse wrote:
Oh boy. I hope you don't think I was defending Covenant. I thought he was a
miserable little <insert bad word> who needed to be shot.
Steve Moss