Names that Make You Wince
John Andrew Fairhurst
from one novel in a way that causes the wince.
A couple of examples:
_Federation_ by 'William Shatner' has a pair of psychohistorians who are
trying to get Star Fleet interested in their findings. Their Fleet
contact was Admiral Hardin (though fortunately not Salvor :-))
SM Stirling's _On the Oceans of Eternity_ has a Sgt (I think) Roark
defending a hospital station against overwhelming odds. To be fair, this
was I *hope* played a bit for the laughs.
Any others?
--
John Fairhurst
In Association with Amazon worldwide:
http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk/Books/Gollancz
More Classic SF
Captain Button
> Not the unpronounceable ones that use odd punctuation, but that use names
> from one novel in a way that causes the wince.
> A couple of examples:
> _Federation_ by 'William Shatner' has a pair of psychohistorians who are
> trying to get Star Fleet interested in their findings. Their Fleet
> contact was Admiral Hardin (though fortunately not Salvor :-))
> SM Stirling's _On the Oceans of Eternity_ has a Sgt (I think) Roark
> defending a hospital station against overwhelming odds. To be fair, this
> was I *hope* played a bit for the laughs.
That was supposed to be a homage I think I've seen SMS sayhere in the
past.
> Any others?
--
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in
tolerance and free speech," - David Brin
Captain Button - but...@io.com
Jerry Brown
<Jo...@johnsbooks.co.uk> wrote:
>Not the unpronounceable ones that use odd punctuation, but that use names
>from one novel in a way that causes the wince.
>
>A couple of examples:
>
>_Federation_ by 'William Shatner' has a pair of psychohistorians who are
>trying to get Star Fleet interested in their findings. Their Fleet
>contact was Admiral Hardin (though fortunately not Salvor :-))
>
>SM Stirling's _On the Oceans of Eternity_ has a Sgt (I think) Roark
>defending a hospital station against overwhelming odds. To be fair, this
>was I *hope* played a bit for the laughs.
>
>Any others?
Not SF, but what was Thomas Harris thinking when he named a pair of
minor characters in 'Hannibal' Burke and Hare?
The book also makes it clear that the protagonist's name was Hannibal
from birth, which must have limited his options for rhyming lifestyle
choices (in the earlier books I'd assumed that he'd changed his name
early in his 'career').
Jerry Brown
--
A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
Ken Vale
In the the Waterborn and the Blackgod by J. Gregory Keyes, one of the main
characters is named Perkar, my mind kept replacing the first r with a c, and
the a with an e. It was very distarcting.
Ken
Dorothy J Heydt
>trying to get Star Fleet interested in their findings. Their Fleet
>contact was Admiral Hardin (though fortunately not Salvor :-))
Surely that was deliberate.... the technical term is _hommage_.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Dorothy J Heydt
Jerry Brown <je...@jwbrown.co.uk.RemoveThisBitToReply> wrote:
>A cat may look at a king
>(but probably won't bother)
Oh, you'd be surprised. We usually take a cat to SCA events, and
(depending on the circumstances on the cat) I've seen one wander
about court (to the extent of the long leash she was on), look
the Royalty up and down, and in one case wander up and sit on the
Queen's lap.
rkbose
> Not the unpronounceable ones that use odd punctuation, but that use names
> from one novel in a way that causes the wince.
The Star Wars lot, though I imagine that was intentional: Chewbacca, Laia
Organa, Darth Maul, and especially Amidala, which sounds vaguely sacreligious
though it probably isn't.
Theresa Ann Wymer
: John Andrew Fairhurst wrote:
Amidala, though, is very close to the Portuguese "amigdala", which
I'm told caused uproarious laughter in Brazilian cinemas. Queen Tonsil?
--
Theresa Ann Wymer twy...@efn.org
Dorothy J Heydt
Sounds medical to me. The amygdala (means "almond") is some
structure in the brain, I forget what.
Dorothy J Heydt
Tonsil, and almond. (I bet.) Similarly, the German for almond
and tonsil is the same word: Mandel.
David Tate
> Not the unpronounceable ones that use odd punctuation, but that use names
> from one novel in a way that causes the wince.
The Star Trek novel _Death Count_ was written by "L. A. Graf", a
pseudonym (and acronym -- "Let's All Get Rich And Famous") for the
writing team of whom Julia Ecklar is half. Julia and I were members
of the Bach Choir of Pittsburgh at the time. She and her co-author
decided to name all of their characters after members of the
Pittsburgh Penguins hockey club. Thus, various major characters had
names like Lemieux, Coffey, Recchi, Jagr, etc. They then decided that
killing off those characters in grisly ways might not be appreciated
by the Pens, so they changed the names of all the (many -- see title)
victims to names from the Bach Choir. Which is how Ensign Tate
managed to worm his way into the book. Briefly.
Yes, it made me wince.
Cheers,
David Tate
Michael Schilling
news:9d67e55e.01111...@posting.google.com...
> The Star Trek novel _Death Count_ was written by "L. A. Graf", a
> pseudonym (and acronym -- "Let's All Get Rich And Famous") for the
> writing team of whom Julia Ecklar is half. Julia and I were members
> of the Bach Choir of Pittsburgh at the time. She and her co-author
> decided to name all of their characters after members of the
> Pittsburgh Penguins hockey club. Thus, various major characters had
> names like Lemieux, Coffey, Recchi, Jagr, etc. They then decided that
> killing off those characters in grisly ways might not be appreciated
> by the Pens, so they changed the names of all the (many -- see title)
> victims to names from the Bach Choir. Which is how Ensign Tate
> managed to worm his way into the book. Briefly.
>
> Yes, it made me wince.
Does _The Manchurian Candidate_ count as SF? The members of the platoon
were named after the actors (*not* the characters) in Sgt. Bilko's platoon.
Captain Button
> In article <3BED65F8...@pacific.net.sg>,
> rkbose <rkb...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>>John Andrew Fairhurst wrote:
>>
>>> Not the unpronounceable ones that use odd punctuation, but that use names
>>> from one novel in a way that causes the wince.
>>
>>The Star Wars lot, though I imagine that was intentional: Chewbacca, Laia
>>Organa, Darth Maul, and especially Amidala, which sounds vaguely sacreligious
>>though it probably isn't.
> Sounds medical to me. The amygdala (means "almond") is some
> structure in the brain, I forget what.
ObSF: I think in TJ Bass's _Half Past Human_ there is discussion
of a AI harvester's amygdala, described so in analogy to the
human brains structure. This being a Bass novel, everyone is
familiar with details of brain anatomy and function.
Jerry Brown
Similarly, the characters in 'The Howling' were named after directors
of earlier werewolf films, and 'Babylon 5' featured a psi-cop called
Alfred Bester.
There's supposedly a similar in-joke relating to the faked credits on
'Sleuth' but I can't remember the details.
Jerry Brown
--
rkbose
> In article <3BED65F8...@pacific.net.sg>,
> rkbose <rkb...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
> >John Andrew Fairhurst wrote:
> >
> >> Not the unpronounceable ones that use odd punctuation, but that use names
> >> from one novel in a way that causes the wince.
> >
> >The Star Wars lot, though I imagine that was intentional: Chewbacca, Laia
> >Organa, Darth Maul, and especially Amidala, which sounds vaguely sacreligious
> >though it probably isn't.
>
> Sounds medical to me. The amygdala (means "almond") is some
> structure in the brain, I forget what.
Never thought of that. I associated it with the Amida Buddha...particularly with
the Japanese cast to some of the costumes.
Eric Walker
[...]
>There's supposedly a similar in-joke relating to the faked
>credits on 'Sleuth' but I can't remember the details.
(The play being as old as it is, I'll skip the usual "Spoiler
Space.")
The play is entirely a two-character play, but it is vital that
the audience not initially be aware that a third character who
appears is one of the two in disguise.
The credits, which might otherwise give that away (there are, I
suppose, a few people who read the playbill through before the
play begins), thus list a pseudonym for the "actor" playing that
role. The exact pseudonym I forget, but I would guess it's
George Spelvin, "the universal standard pseudonym" for actors.
(Recall the porn actress--if that's the word--who caled herself
Georgina Spelvin, another in joke).
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker, webmaster
Great Science-Fiction & Fantasy Works
http://owlcroft.com/sfandf
John Andrew Fairhurst
> psychohistorians who are
> >trying to get Star Fleet interested in their findings. Their Fleet
> >contact was Admiral Hardin (though fortunately not Salvor :-))
>
> Surely that was deliberate.... the technical term is _hommage_.
>
But then, surely, you would have expected Admiral Seldon :-).
I don't really mind these sorts of things particularly if I recognise the
characters/books being hommaged
Mark Reichert
news:MPG.1656e0e46...@news.compuserve.com...
> defending a hospital station against overwhelming odds. To be fair, this
> was I *hope* played a bit for the laughs.
The battle is a direct homage to the movie ZULU, not so much the actual
events at Roarke's Drift.
Joseph Michael Bay
Yeah, and in the USAno cinema we were all
guffawing like "HAW HAW, SHE'S A BASAL GANGLION"!
>Queen Tonsil?
"Queen Almond?"
--
Chimes peal joy. Bah. Joseph Michael Bay
Icy colon barge Cancer Biology
Frosty divine Saturn Stanford University
When encryption is outlawed, fO$t ^@3sVe) %4iG Vx@| /jNGe5x6@^.
Joseph Michael Bay
>John Andrew Fairhurst wrote:
MILK: "Behold, we are Dark Lords of the Sith!"
CHEESE: "Is that sacreligious?"
TOGETHER:"IT IS NOW!"
Greg Owen
John Andrew Fairhurst <Jo...@johnsbooks.co.uk> writes:
> SM Stirling's _On the Oceans of Eternity_ has a Sgt (I think) Roark
> defending a hospital station against overwhelming odds. To be fair,
> this was I *hope* played a bit for the laughs.
Yes, it was pretty clearly a joke even in the book, but...
At the risk of publicising my ignorance, I missed the
reference, even while understanding it was a joke. What was the
original/uptime Rourke's Ford?
--
gowen -- Greg Owen -- go...@swynwyr.com
Jeffrey C. Dege
Rourke's Drift - and what was painful about that part of the book was that
it didn't follow history, it followed the film adaptation of the battle.
--
What? Me .sig?
Joe Slater
>Rourke's Drift - and what was painful about that part of the book was that
>it didn't follow history, it followed the film adaptation of the battle.
I have observed before that Steve Stirling sounds very confident about
his historical knowledge, but I'm not sure how accurate it generally
is.
jds
--
Joe Slater was but a low-grade paranoiac, whose fantastic notions must
have come from the crude hereditary folk-tales which circulated in even
the most decadent of communities.
_Beyond the Wall of Sleep_ by H P Lovecraft
Terry Austin
"Greg Owen" <go...@swynwyr.com> wrote in message
news:m3ofm6m...@h00a0c9056d78.ne.mediaone.net...
Roarke's Drift, the subject of the movie _Zulu_. Involved something like
100 Brits defending a remote outpost by that name against 40:1 odds,
successfully. (Based on real incident.) Great volley fire scene.
Terry Austin
Greg Owen
Joe Slater <joeDEL...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> writes:
> I have observed before that Steve Stirling sounds very confident
> about his historical knowledge, but I'm not sure how accurate it
> generally is.
I was amused to note while reading Johnson's "History of the
American People" that William Walker was an army officer in the
(1800s?) who decided to take his command down to South America and try
to set up his own country.
Keith Morrison
> > SM Stirling's _On the Oceans of Eternity_ has a Sgt (I think) Roark
> > defending a hospital station against overwhelming odds. To be fair,
> > this was I *hope* played a bit for the laughs.
>
> Yes, it was pretty clearly a joke even in the book, but...
>
> At the risk of publicising my ignorance, I missed the
> reference, even while understanding it was a joke. What was the
> original/uptime Rourke's Ford?
Rorke's Drift. It was a mission outpost in South Africa used by the
British as a supply point during the Zulu War of 1879.
A British detachment of about 150 men were trapped in the mission by
a force of about 4000 Zulus on the 22nd-23rd January, 1879. About
104 of the British were actually fit to fight. The battle shouldn't
have happened at all, really. The Zulus (under Dabulamanzi kaMpande)
were a detachment that hadn't played much of a role at Isandhlwana
the day before before and so the men pushed Dabulamanzi into disobeying
the orders of his brother, King Cetshwayo, not to cross in Natal.
The Zulus mounted a series of attacks, eventually making a penetration
of the perimeter and getting into the main house (serving as a hospital)
which they started burning and began spearing patients until Private
Alfred Hooks fought them off with a bayonet while Pvt John Williams
hacked through a wall and pulled the wounded and sick out one at a
time.
The fighting went on all night, the Zulus finally withdrawing in the
morning. There were at least 351 Zulus left dead (and an unknown
number who would have died later after retreating). There were 16
dead on the British side. Eleven Victoria Crosses were awarded, the
most ever in a single action, and there probably would have been one
or two more but the VC wasn't awarded posthumously until 1905.
It caught a lot of attention because the day before Cetshwayo had
taken on 1700 British and colonial troops at Isandlwhana and utterly
annihilated them (only 400, only 80 of them Europeans, got out alive).
After that disaster, the defense of Rorke's Drift when faced with
worse odds, became legendary.
--
Keith
Lawrence Watt-Evans
> I was amused to note while reading Johnson's "History of the
>American People" that William Walker was an army officer in the
>(1800s?) who decided to take his command down to South America and try
>to set up his own country.
Central America, actually, rather than South.
--
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 5/28/01
My next novel is THE DRAGON SOCIETY, coming soon from Tor.
Jeffrey C. Dege
>jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) wrote:
>>Rourke's Drift - and what was painful about that part of the book was that
>>it didn't follow history, it followed the film adaptation of the battle.
>
>I have observed before that Steve Stirling sounds very confident about
>his historical knowledge, but I'm not sure how accurate it generally
>is.
I'm not slamming Stirling for his historical research. The connection
to the movie is obvious - he even borrows dialogue.
--
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron -- more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to humankind.
-- Mirelle Stein, _The Productive Class
Jordan S. Bassior
>jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) wrote:
>>Rourke's Drift - and what was painful about that part of the book was that
>>it didn't follow history, it followed the film adaptation of the battle.
>
>I have observed before that Steve Stirling sounds very confident about
>his historical knowledge, but I'm not sure how accurate it generally is.
The scene in the Stirling novel was intended as a homage to the movie more so
than the actual history.
--
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
--
raycun
Since I'm reading Pakenham's 'Scramble for Africa' at the moment...
The British entered into the Zulu wars for no particular reason other
than that they wanted a war with the Zulus. At the time, official
policy in south Africa was to try to incorporate the independent Boer
states into Cape Colony. The recent annexation of the Transvaal hadn't
gone down too well (but, although they may bitch about it for a while,
there's no way the Boers would ever take up arms, you understand), and
so the British administrators wanted to show they were anti-Zulu, to
get the Boers on their side.
Their first attempt was offering to arbitrate in a land dispute
between the Boers and the Zulus. Unfortunately the arbitration
committee found that the Zulus were in the right, and wouldn't bow to
the pressure to change their verdict. So the Brits gave up looking for
excuses, and told King Cetshwayo to disband his army. He refused, and
faced with such abominable cheek the army had no choice but to teach
him a lesson...
Ray
Mark Reichert
> worse odds, became legendary.
And makes for one hell of a movie, even if it does depart from history.
http://amazon.imdb.com/Details?0058777
Jeffrey C. Dege
The only thing that irked me was the portrayal of Commissary Dalton.
He was a former infantry NCO, and the most experienced soldier at
Rorke's Drift. He was instrumental in the planning of the defense.
He was one of the recipients of the VC - from the movie, you have to
wonder why.
http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/vc/dalton.htm
James Dalton was born in London in 1833. He enlisted in 85th Foot in
November 1849 aged 17. He transferred to the Commissariat Corps in
1862 as a Corporal, and was promoted to Sergeant in the following
year. Four years later, he became a clerk and a Master-Sergeant. He
served with Sir Garnet Wolseley on the Red River Expedition (Canada)
in 1870.
He retired from the army, with a Long Service & Good Conduct medal in
1871 after 22 years service. By 1877, he was in South Africa and
volunteered for service as Acting Assistant Commissary with the
British Force. It was largely due to his experience, which made the
defence of Rorke's Drift a success. At first his contribution was not
recognised; however reports of his actions finally reached the ears of
senior officers and even Queen Victoria.
He received his VC from General Hugh Clifford VC at a special parade
at Fort Napier on 16 January 1880. He returned to army service being
given a permanent commission. He sailed for England in February 1880.
He soon returned to South Africa and took part shares in a gold mine.
He died at a friend's house at Port Elizabeth, Eastern Cape on 7
January 1887, aged 53. (His VC is in the Royal Logistic Corps Museum,
Blackdown, Camberley, Surrey).
--
I could climb the very highest Himalayas,
be among the greatest ever tennis players,
Win at chess, marry a princess,
or study hard and be an eminent professor.
I could be a millionaire, play the clarinet, travel everywhere,
learn to cook, catch a crook, win a war and write a book about it.
I could paint a Mona Lisa, I could be another Caesar,
compose an oratorio that was sublime,
The door's not shut on my genius, but
I just don't have the time.
-- Michael Flanders and Donald Swann
Mark Reichert
news:slrn9vgtmr...@jdege.visi.com...
> The only thing that irked me was the portrayal of Commissary Dalton.
>
> He was a former infantry NCO, and the most experienced soldier at
> Rorke's Drift. He was instrumental in the planning of the defense.
Thanks for the info. I'll pay more attention the next time I see the movie.
William December Starr
je...@jwbrown.co.uk.RemoveThisBitToReply said:
> Not SF, but what was Thomas Harris thinking when he named a pair of
> minor characters in 'Hannibal' Burke and Hare?
His own cleverness, no doubt. (I hate it when authors decide to be
clever.)
> The book also makes it clear that the protagonist's name was
> Hannibal from birth, which must have limited his options for rhyming
> lifestyle choices (in the earlier books I'd assumed that he'd
> changed his name early in his 'career').
Hmm. That he'd been named anything other than Hannibal all his life
had never occurred to me. And now you've got me thinking of the
cannibalistic "Guy DeVore, the Carnivore" from the short-lived soap
opera spoof "Muscle."
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Nyrath the nearly wise
MISSION TO THE HEART STARS. And there is the name of the
the alien administrator: "Baxx Terr"
Karen Williams
In THE TWO TOWERS, the remaining Fellowship members walk by
a river named Wetwang.
--
Karen Williams
bra...@ix.netcom.com
Simon Bradshaw
Williams) wrote:
> In THE TWO TOWERS, the remaining Fellowship members walk by
> a river named Wetwang.
...which is a small town in Yorkshire. I used to drive through it
regularly about ten years ago (with a wry smile, I should add).
--
Simon Bradshaw sjbra...@cix.co.uk
http://www.cix.co.uk/~sjbradshaw
*** The Science Fiction Foundation ***
http://www.sf-foundation.org
Simon Bradshaw
nearly wise) wrote:
I really must have words with Stephen; getting yourself Tuckerized at the
age of eight is pushing things a bit far...
Cyril N. Alberga
Simon Bradshaw wrote:
>
> In article <3BFFF602...@home.com>, bran...@home.com (Karen
> Williams) wrote:
>
> > In THE TWO TOWERS, the remaining Fellowship members walk by
> > a river named Wetwang.
>
> ...which is a small town in Yorkshire. I used to drive through it
> regularly about ten years ago (with a wry smile, I should add).
>
> --
Meaning, according to my gazetteer, "wet field" in Anglo-Saxon.
Cyril N. Alberga
Cernunnos
spelled names that sound exactly like a normal Earth name. Aliens running
around with names like t'om ahdams and silly nonsense like that. (the
example is not from any specifc thing, more of a generaliztion)
--
--
I've been making shows of trading blows,
Just hoping no one knows,
That I've been going through the motions,
Walking through the part,
Nothing seems to penetrate my heart.
Eric Walker
character named Hobbes is rescued at sea when a whale swimming
around him attracts the ship's attention. He'd not have been
found, says a sailor, save for the behavior of Hobbes'
leviathan.
There are, believe it or not, other and worse cases. A chief
character whose first name is Tristram is passenger on a ship
under the administration of a Captain Stern. Oh my . . . .
Matt McIrvin
maureen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2001 19:34:26 GMT, Karen Williams <bran...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:
> >>
> >> Sheesh. Just this morning I'm re-reading James Blish's
> >> MISSION TO THE HEART STARS. And there is the name of the
> >> the alien administrator: "Baxx Terr"
> >
> >In THE TWO TOWERS, the remaining Fellowship members walk by
> >a river named Wetwang.
>
> Oh, that's a good Northern English placename, that is. But yes, if you
> don't know this, I can imagine that it looks really peculiar.
Some people from Idaho who were visiting Massachusetts told me
that they found the name "Middlesex Turnpike" bizarre and hilarious.
--
Matt McIrvin
Jens Kilian
> In THE TWO TOWERS, the remaining Fellowship members walk by
> a river named Wetwang.
There are any number of weird place names in LoTR (esp. in the Shire, e.g.,
Nobottle); and all of them are linguistically sound and/or based on historic
precedent...
--
mailto:j...@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698)
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351
PGP: 06 04 1C 35 7B DC 1F 26 As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
0x555DA8B5 BB A2 F0 66 77 75 E1 08 so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
snark^
warbled on about "Re: Rourke's ford?" in rec.arts.sf.written <<=
> On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 20:04:30 GMT, Mark Reichert <ma...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >And makes for one hell of a movie, even if it does depart from history.
> >
> >http://amazon.imdb.com/Details?0058777
>
> The only thing that irked me was the portrayal of Commissary Dalton.
>
> He was a former infantry NCO, and the most experienced soldier at
> Rorke's Drift. He was instrumental in the planning of the defense.
>
> He was one of the recipients of the VC - from the movie, you have to
> wonder why.
While _Zulu_ was a great movie to watch it still isn't the epitome of a
historically correct piece. Besides the Dalton thing above the movie makers
took a few other liberties -- the complete character assassination of Henry
Hook for one. How the screenwriters managed to turn a sober teetotaler into
the very epitome of a stereotypical cockney anti-establishment beer-guzzling
anti-hero is beyond me.
"As Colour-Sergeant Bourne was issuing the spirit to B company he was
astonished to see Private hook, a lifelong teetotaler, hold out his mug for
his share. 'What? You here?' 'Well', replied Hook, 'I feel I want
something after that'. Then he went back to making tea for the wounded."*
The missionary, Witt, wasn't drunk and rode away before the Zulu's arrived.
He eventually ended up in the UK where he gained a little notoriety from
claiming to be a survivor of both Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift.
Bromhead (Michael Caine's character) was almost completely deaf.
Colour Sergeant Bourne was only 24 at the time and probably not the very
epitome of SM-ness as portrayed by the eponymous Nigel Green. He was
eventually commisioned (ended up as a Lieutenant Colonel) and was also the
last recognised survivor of the Boer War, dying sometime in the 1940's I
think
Adendorff didn't stay and left with his troops. The Native Contingent fled
as did some other Colonial Volunteer cavalry that happened by. The 24th
actually took some potshots at their backs before Bromhead and Chard could
stop them firing.
There was none of that terrifying Welsh close-harmony singing... ;)
Rorke's Drift isn't even the best example of fighting off overwhelming odds
in the history of the British Army. In the military ref. books I've read on
RD most of the historians seem to think that the only reason it got so many
VC's awarded was because of what happened at Isandlhwana immediately
earlier. Not detracting from their achievement of staying alive at huge
odds but a hugely heralded Heroic Victory helped the public forget the
earlier disaster and saved more than a few worthy reputations from the chop.
Just found a good site about the battle while trying to rack my bRAyn3 for
all this stuff: http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/
* Not quite sure where the original source for this quote comes from. I got
it from _Rorke's Drift_ by Michael Glover (Wordsworth Military Library, ISBN
1-85326-673-6).
--
Blackadder : Have you ever been to Wales Baldrick?
Baldrick : No, but I've often thought I'd like to.
Blackadder : Well don't, it's a ghastly place. Huge gangs of tough, sinewy
men roam the valleys terrorising people with their close-harmony singing.
You need half a pint of phlegm in your throat just to pronounce the
placenames. Never ask for directions in Wales, Baldrick. You'll be
washing spit out of your hair for a fortnight.
David Allsopp
<jabbe...@deepinthetulgeywook.com> writes
>The missionary, Witt, wasn't drunk and rode away before the Zulu's arrived.
>He eventually ended up in the UK where he gained a little notoriety from
>claiming to be a survivor of both Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift.
That was Harry Flashman, surely?
--
David Allsopp Houston, this is Tranquillity Base.
Remove SPAM to email me The Eagle has landed.
Robert Sneddon
>in the history of the British Army.
Mirbat in Oman, in 1972 or thereabouts? A beach party versus 400-odd
heavily-armed North Yemeni insurgents.
OK, the guys having a party on the beach were off-duty SAS, but it was
still a bit one-sided.
--
Robert Sneddon nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
Robert Sneddon
<d...@tqSPAMbase.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <mgk90uktjo367djch...@4ax.com>, snark^
><jabbe...@deepinthetulgeywook.com> writes
>>The missionary, Witt, wasn't drunk and rode away before the Zulu's arrived.
>>He eventually ended up in the UK where he gained a little notoriety from
>>claiming to be a survivor of both Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift.
>
>That was Harry Flashman, surely?
you're thinking of the Crimea, a lot earlier. Flashy was the only
British officer to take part in the charge of the Heavy Brigade, the
Thin Red Line and the charge of the Light Brigade, all in one afternoon.
David Allsopp
<no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
Well actually, I missed out a :-).
Seriously, I'm sure that in one of the books ("...Mountain Of Light"?)
Flashy mentions being at Isandhlwana. If he *was* there, of course, the
chance of him *not* being at Rorke's Drift is minimal.
I remember wondering at the time how much research GMF had to do to
plausibly get Flashy to all the major late C19 battles[1] on three
continents, and being surprised that it was even possible. I have a
feeling that GMF actually has him in the US at the time of Isandhlwana,
but trusting my memory over GMF's research is probably unwise.
[1] He would have found it tricky being at Waterloo, for instance... He
was probably too old for the Boer War as well. But ISTR that Flashy is
still alive at the start of WWI, if GMF ever feels like torturing a
nonagenarian...
Joseph Major
:
: In article <k+BdF7AC...@nojay.fsnet.co.uk>, Robert Sneddon
: <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
:>In article <1xrTSWC1...@tqbase.demon.co.uk>, David Allsopp
:><d...@tqSPAMbase.demon.co.uk> writes
:>>In article <mgk90uktjo367djch...@4ax.com>, snark^
:>><jabbe...@deepinthetulgeywook.com> writes
:>>>The missionary, Witt, wasn't drunk and rode away before the Zulu's arrived.
:>>>He eventually ended up in the UK where he gained a little notoriety from
:>>>claiming to be a survivor of both Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift.
:>>
:>>That was Harry Flashman, surely?
:>
:> you're thinking of the Crimea, a lot earlier. Flashy was the only
:>British officer to take part in the charge of the Heavy Brigade, the
:>Thin Red Line and the charge of the Light Brigade, all in one afternoon.
he was also at the Little Big Horn (_Flashman and the Redskins_)
and in the Siege of Peking (_Mr. American_).
:
: Well actually, I missed out a :-).
:
: Seriously, I'm sure that in one of the books ("...Mountain Of Light"?)
: Flashy mentions being at Isandhlwana. If he *was* there, of course, the
: chance of him *not* being at Rorke's Drift is minimal.
The title story in _Flashman and the Tiger_ has Flashman escaping
from Isandhlwana and encountering "Tiger Jack" Moran. Later on, Moran
tries to blackmail Flashman and his granddaughter, so Flashy decides to
stalk and ambush him. He follows Moran through London all the way to an
empty house . . .
:
: I remember wondering at the time how much research GMF had to do to
: plausibly get Flashy to all the major late C19 battles[1] on three
: continents, and being surprised that it was even possible. I have a
: feeling that GMF actually has him in the US at the time of Isandhlwana,
: but trusting my memory over GMF's research is probably unwise.
Quite a lot. I understand he had to research Central Asian
history pretty thoroughly to get the background for the last part of
_Flashman at the Charge_.
:
: [1] He would have found it tricky being at Waterloo, for instance... He
: was probably too old for the Boer War as well. But ISTR that Flashy is
: still alive at the start of WWI, if GMF ever feels like torturing a
: nonagenarian...
In _Mr. American_ Flashman drives into Buckingham Palace to use
the loo.
Joseph T Major
--
Jens Kilian
> That was Harry Flashman, surely?
IIRC, Rorke's Drift wasn't in _Flashman and the Tiger_. (I may be wrong.)
Jens Kilian
> he was also at the Little Big Horn (_Flashman and the Redskins_)
> and in the Siege of Peking (_Mr. American_).
_Flashman and the Dragon_ is set during the Taiping Rebellion.
IIRC, Flashman was not in *all* the major battles; one of the notes
(in _F. and the Mountain of Light_, IIRC) mentions that although he
wrote that he had been at Chillianwallah(sp?), he couldn't have been there.
Jens "how can I remember *that*, but must write it down when I need to
buy a loaf of bread?" Kilian.
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
wrote:
>David Allsopp <d...@tqSPAMbase.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> That was Harry Flashman, surely?
>
>IIRC, Rorke's Drift wasn't in _Flashman and the Tiger_. (I may be wrong.)
It is, and you are.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric D. Berge
(remove spaces for valid address)
Clay lies still, but blood's a rover
Breath's a ware that will not keep
Up, lad! When the journey's over
There'll be time enough to sleep.
- A.E.Housman, "Reveille"
------------------------------------------------------------------
Steinn Sigurdsson
> In article <mgk90uktjo367djch...@4ax.com>, snark^
> <jabbe...@deepinthetulgeywook.com> writes
> >Rorke's Drift isn't even the best example of fighting off overwhelming odds
> >in the history of the British Army.
> Mirbat in Oman, in 1972 or thereabouts? A beach party versus 400-odd
> heavily-armed North Yemeni insurgents.
> OK, the guys having a party on the beach were off-duty SAS, but it was
> still a bit one-sided.
Yes, I was much amused to compare recent accounts of
the battle at Mazar-e-Sharif in the US and UK press.
Must have been two separate prisoner rebellions, there
is no other accounting for the disparaties.
Lee DeRaud
<ste...@najma.astro.psu.edu> wrote:
Enlighten us, please.
Lee
David Allsopp
<jtm...@shell1.iglou.com> writes
>David Allsopp <d...@tqspambase.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>: Seriously, I'm sure that in one of the books ("...Mountain Of Light"?)
>: Flashy mentions being at Isandhlwana. If he *was* there, of course, the
>: chance of him *not* being at Rorke's Drift is minimal.
>
> The title story in _Flashman and the Tiger_ has Flashman escaping
>from Isandhlwana and encountering "Tiger Jack" Moran. Later on, Moran
>tries to blackmail Flashman and his granddaughter, so Flashy decides to
>stalk and ambush him. He follows Moran through London all the way to an
>empty house . . .
Ahhh...I *thought* there was a new Flashman that I hadn't read yet. One
more for the Christmas list...
Jens Kilian
> On 29 Nov 2001 14:52:19 +0100, Jens Kilian <Jens_...@agilent.com>
> wrote:
> >IIRC, Rorke's Drift wasn't in _Flashman and the Tiger_. (I may be wrong.)
>
> It is, and you are.
Out of the bookcase it comes, and on the reading pile it goes...
Jens Kilian
> Do you believe everything Flashman tells us?
Well, yes. What reason does he have for lying (it's not as if he *brags*
about his adventures :-)
Rich Trouton
McIrvin <mmci...@world.std.com> wrote:
One wonders what they'd make of some of the towns in Pennsylvania.
Rich, who's used to towns named Intercourse and Blue Ball.
Robert Sneddon
<Jens_...@agilent.com> writes
>how...@brazee.net writes:
>> Do you believe everything Flashman tells us?
>
>Well, yes. What reason does he have for lying (it's not as if he *brags*
>about his adventures :-)
The Flashman Papers, as presented by George McDonald Fraser, purport to
be the private diaries of The Honourable Sir Harry Flashman, KBE, VC
etc. etc. as found in a tin trunk.
Then again, he is such an egotistical bastard that he might have been
lying to himself (inventing the hat-trick, indeed. Ha! Poppycock!)
Steinn Sigurdsson
> >Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Enlighten us, please.
From Nov 28:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24988-2001Nov27.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4308891,00.html
These are accounts from comparably weighty major UK and US newspapers,
both did previous and subsequent stories on it, the level of detail
and account emphasis was consistently inconsistent in the different
stories I saw.
The other consistently interesting thing is that the European
press has been much quicker and more informative (in the literal
sense of providing more information) about events in Afghanistan
then the US press.
Jeffrey C. Dege
>
>The other consistently interesting thing is that the European
>press has been much quicker and more informative (in the literal
>sense of providing more information) about events in Afghanistan
>then the US press.
The US press corps seems to think that all they should have to do is
show up for the briefings.
--
The customer proceeds to go through each change line-by-line.
Excruciating detail, which no logic can divine.
And when it ends there's only four not sitting there agog:
The customer, the manager, the pony and the dog.
snark^
> I wrote:
> >Rorke's Drift isn't even the best example of fighting off overwhelming odds
> >in the history of the British Army.
>
> Mirbat in Oman, in 1972 or thereabouts? A beach party versus 400-odd
> heavily-armed North Yemeni insurgents.
>
> OK, the guys having a party on the beach were off-duty SAS, but it was
> still a bit one-sided.
The book I read quoted two other incidents: a unit defending Maya pass in
1813 (presumably in the Peninsular Campaign) and the stand made by the Corp
of Guides at Kabul. Neither of which I've ever heard of. I'm looking them
up now.
The point made in the book is that it wasn't that outstanding an event: in
total the 24th lost only 15 soldiers in total and 10 of those were wounded
in the hospital when it got torched. Zulu dead was around 400. Yet from
this 11 VCs were awarded, 4DCMs(?), Chard became the only man to jump from
Lieutenant to Major in a day, and both he and Bromhead got some sort of
offical thanks from parliament (previously unheard of for two at once).
--
"And to close on, the Dept. of Small Consolations. Some troubledome just
figured out that if you allow for every codder and shiggy and appleofmyeye
a space one foot by two you could stand us all on the six hundred forty
square mile surface of the island of Zanzibar. ToDAY third MAY twenty-TEN
come AGAIN!"
snark^
> Seriously, I'm sure that in one of the books ("...Mountain Of Light"?)
> Flashy mentions being at Isandhlwana. If he *was* there, of course, the
> chance of him *not* being at Rorke's Drift is minimal.
>
> I remember wondering at the time how much research GMF had to do to
> plausibly get Flashy to all the major late C19 battles[1] on three
> continents, and being surprised that it was even possible. I have a
> feeling that GMF actually has him in the US at the time of Isandhlwana,
> but trusting my memory over GMF's research is probably unwise.
As yet, re: Flashy's infamous career, there's a few gaps left. The Zulu
Wars occured in 1879 so there's plenty of time for Flashy to get there...
:) Doubtless he'll be hiding under the wagon as Witt flees, having somehow
previously saved the colours at Isandhlwana (honoured along with the two who
died doing the same).
Flashy's career in chronological order:
1838 ... kicked out of Rugby by Arnold ...
1839-42 Flashman -- Britain, India, Afghanistan (Elphy Bey)
1842 Royal (part 1) -- Britain (Lola Montez)
1842-45 Lady -- Britain, Borneo, Madagascar (Suliman, Ranavalona, Brooke)
1845-46 Mountain of Light -- Indian Punjab (Sikh Khalsa, Jeendan)
1847-48 Royal (part 2) -- Germany (Bismark, Starnberg)
1848-49 For Freedom! -- Britain, West Africa, USA (Spring)
1849-50 The Redskins (part 1) -- USA (Mangas Colorado, Sonseearey)
??
1854-55 The Charge -- Britain, Crimea, Central Asia (Cardigan, Ignatieff)
1856-58 The Great Game -- Britain, India (Lakshmibai)
1858-59 The Angel of the Lord -- India, South Africa, USA (Spring, Brown)
1860 The Dragon -- China
??
1875-76 The Redskins (part 2) -- USA (Custer, Crazy Horse)
??
1915 ... AF (After Flashy) ...
--
I've seen things you newbies wouldn't believe. Attack-morons aflame off
the shoulder of rec.arts.sf.written. I watched Cancel posts glitter in the
ether near the waikato.ac.nz gateway. All those moments will be lost in
time -- like beers in the rain. Time to unsubscribe.
Keith Morrison
> > I wrote:
> > >Rorke's Drift isn't even the best example of fighting off overwhelming odds
> > >in the history of the British Army.
> >
> > Mirbat in Oman, in 1972 or thereabouts? A beach party versus 400-odd
> > heavily-armed North Yemeni insurgents.
> >
> > OK, the guys having a party on the beach were off-duty SAS, but it was
> > still a bit one-sided.
>
> The book I read quoted two other incidents: a unit defending Maya pass in
> 1813 (presumably in the Peninsular Campaign) and the stand made by the Corp
> of Guides at Kabul. Neither of which I've ever heard of. I'm looking them
> up now.
>
> The point made in the book is that it wasn't that outstanding an event: in
> total the 24th lost only 15 soldiers in total and 10 of those were wounded
> in the hospital when it got torched. Zulu dead was around 400. Yet from
> this 11 VCs were awarded, 4DCMs(?), Chard became the only man to jump from
> Lieutenant to Major in a day, and both he and Bromhead got some sort of
> offical thanks from parliament (previously unheard of for two at once).
As I said before, the thing that captured the public's attention about
Rorke's Drift was that the day before a far larger force had been
annihilated at Isandhlwana. Rorke's Drift was thus something like the
Doolittle Raid on Tokyo; after getting your ass kicked but good by the
other guy, you take your victory when you can get it and play it for
all its worth.
--
Keith
James Bodi
snark^ <jabbe...@deepinthetulgeywook.com> wrote:
>=>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then David Allsopp
> warbled on about "Re: Rourke's ford?" in rec.arts.sf.written <<=
>
>> Seriously, I'm sure that in one of the books ("...Mountain Of Light"?)
>> Flashy mentions being at Isandhlwana. If he *was* there, of course, the
>> chance of him *not* being at Rorke's Drift is minimal.
>>
>> I remember wondering at the time how much research GMF had to do to
>> plausibly get Flashy to all the major late C19 battles[1] on three
>> continents, and being surprised that it was even possible. I have a
>> feeling that GMF actually has him in the US at the time of Isandhlwana,
>> but trusting my memory over GMF's research is probably unwise.
>
>As yet, re: Flashy's infamous career, there's a few gaps left. The Zulu
>Wars occured in 1879 so there's plenty of time for Flashy to get there...
>:) Doubtless he'll be hiding under the wagon as Witt flees, having somehow
>previously saved the colours at Isandhlwana (honoured along with the two
who
>died doing the same).
---HF's deeds at Islandhlwana and the Drift are sketched out in 'Flashman
and the Tiger', a novella released in 1975 or so and reprinted last year.
>
>Flashy's career in chronological order:
>
>1838 ... kicked out of Rugby by Arnold ...
>1839-42 Flashman -- Britain, India, Afghanistan (Elphy Bey)
>1842 Royal (part 1) -- Britain (Lola Montez)
>1842-45 Lady -- Britain, Borneo, Madagascar (Suliman, Ranavalona, Brooke)
>1845-46 Mountain of Light -- Indian Punjab (Sikh Khalsa, Jeendan)
>1847-48 Royal (part 2) -- Germany (Bismark, Starnberg)
>1848-49 For Freedom! -- Britain, West Africa, USA (Spring)
>1849-50 The Redskins (part 1) -- USA (Mangas Colorado, Sonseearey)
>??
>1854-55 The Charge -- Britain, Crimea, Central Asia (Cardigan, Ignatieff)
>1856-58 The Great Game -- Britain, India (Lakshmibai)
>1858-59 The Angel of the Lord -- India, South Africa, USA (Spring, Brown)
>1860 The Dragon -- China
>??
>1875-76 The Redskins (part 2) -- USA (Custer, Crazy Horse)
>??
>1915 ... AF (After Flashy) ...
---Don't forget his gatecrashing of the Buckhouse lavatories in late 1914
(Mr American), and attempted seduction of the journalists sister in the 1840's
(Black Appollo).