Good fantasy novels involving myths/folklore
aalu...@webtv.net
myth of Camelot/Avalon what are good novels that are retelling of
ancient myths. I am reading now Morgan Llywylens The Elementals which I
suspect is a retelling of a mythical/folklore story since it appears she
has done this in other novels.
I know Marion Bradley has a retelling of
the Helen of Troy myth.
So any other novels/novelists who do this well. I am planning on reading
more of Morgan's novels -whats her better ones?
r.r...@thevine.net
Are you only interested in stories that retell actual myths, or do
ones that draw on non-Arthurian folklore count?
If it's the first, the things that come to the me right off are Jo
Walton's _King's Name_ and _King's Peace_ (a re-telling of the Arthur
myth in an analogous but not identical world) and Lloyd Alexander's
Prydain series (based on Welsh mythology).
Rebecca
Westprog
<r.r...@thevine.net> wrote in message
news:ffck92l4v3iuqv1nr...@4ax.com...
And Evangeline Walton's Mabinogion series, treading the same paths as
Alexander.
Gaiman likes to play with myths, but he doesn't do simple retellings.
J/
BOTW: "Enigma - The Battle For The Code" - Hugh Sebag-Montefiore
ringman
For Irish mythology there is Kenneth C. Flint.
for Greek C. S. Lewis "Till we have Faces" his best fiction.
I don't suppose Ilium - Dan Simmonds counts
Dorothy J Heydt
ringman <geoffre...@baesystems.com> wrote:
>
>for Greek C. S. Lewis "Till we have Faces" his best fiction.
Actually, the tale of Cupid and Psyche, on which _TWHF_ is based,
is not Greek but Roman. It's from _The Golden Ass_ by Apuleius.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
William F. Adams
do which I think are worth reading:
Terri Windling's ``Fairy Tale'' series begun when she was at Ace
Fantasy:
- Jack the Giant Killer by Charles de Lint
- The Sun, the Moon, the Stars by Steven Brust
- Briar Rose by Jane Yolen --- a must read, makes the world a better
place by making the people who read it better people
- &c.
Barry Hughart's Number Ten Ox & Master Li books
Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising pentalogy
Jack Vance's Lyonesse Trilogy
Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword and The Merman's Children
William
David Tate
> Besides the billions it seems of novels involving the retelling of the
> myth of Camelot/Avalon what are good novels that are retelling of
> ancient myths.
Depending on how old 'ancient' is, there's Ellen Kushner's _Thomas the
Rhymer_ (from the traditional English ballad).
In the fairy tale category, there's _Beauty_ by Robin McKinley.
There are some works for which it would be a spoiler to mention them in
this thread, because the tie-in with the folklore/myth is something the
reader is supposed to gradually discover. I can think of one such that
is much praised (by me, too) in this group.
I keep thinking there's a famous SF work based on the myth of
Prometheus, but I can't bring it to mind...
David Tate
art...@yahoo.com
Dracula? The Wolfman? The Mummy? It must be one of those....
Tim Power's Last Call is based on The Grail Legend (among other
things).
Other novels of his have tidbits of folklore/myth such as On Stranger
Tides (The Fountain Of Youth) Declare (Arabian Folklore and Myth)
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Besides the billions it seems of novels involving the retelling of the
> myth of Camelot/Avalon what are good novels that are retelling of
> ancient myths.
Steven Brust, _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_
Terry Pratchett, _Witches Abroad_
JRR Tolkien, _The Silmarillion_ (esp. "Ainulindale")
Jo Walton, _The Prize in the Game_
--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gae...@aol.com
http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/
"I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface."
-- James Nicoll
Wayne Throop
:: the myth of Camelot/Avalon what are good novels that are retelling of
:: ancient myths.
: Steven Brust, _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_
: Terry Pratchett, _Witches Abroad_
: JRR Tolkien, _The Silmarillion_ (esp. "Ainulindale")
: Jo Walton, _The Prize in the Game_
Various Tannith Lee stuff, especially "Night's Master" and followups
in the "flat earth" setting. They get a little far from their roots,
but still.
Would "Lord of Light" count as a retelling of the Mahabharata?
And of course, "Forbidden Planet". Not a novel, but still.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
David Tate
> David Tate wrote:
> >
> > I keep thinking there's a famous SF work based on the myth of
> > Prometheus, but I can't bring it to mind...
>
> Dracula? The Wolfman? The Mummy? It must be one of those....
That's the one. :-)
I haven't read Shelley's original; is there actually a close parallel
to the myth anywhere, or just the metaphorical "bringer of dangerous
new tech" sense?
> Tim Power's Last Call is based on The Grail Legend (among other
> things).
There's a whole cottage industry of SF that uses the "Fisher King"
pattern/myth. Several Powers novels (THE DRAWING OF THE DARK, LAST
CALL), Caroline Stevermer's WHEN THE KING COMES HOME, Katherine Kurtz's
LAMMAS NIGHT (iirc), and I'm sure many others.
David Tate
Peter Meilinger
David Tate wrote:
> I keep thinking there's a famous SF work based on the myth of
> Prometheus, but I can't bring it to mind...
Well, there's Pratchett's The Last Hero, in which Cohen the
Barbarian decides he doesn't like what the gods did to the
Discworld version of Prometheus, who stole fire from the gods.
Cohen and the Silver Horde decide to give it back. With interest.
Wonderful book.
I think it was Pratchett's Eric that had Rincewind encounter
the Disc's version of Odysseus during the Trojan War. Not
the main plot of the book, though.
Didn't David Drake do a science fictional retelling of The Odyssey?
Pete
Brion K. Lienhart
Mercedes Lackey has done several of them, apart from her Valdemar
serieses. I've read _The Black Swan_ which was pretty good, IMO.
Summer Storms
Somewhat in a similar vein, try Kathleen M. O'Neal's "An Abyss of
Light", "Treasure of Light" and "Redemption of Light". Not quite a
direct treatment of ancient myth, but more of an amalgam of mythical
elements from ancient Hebraic culture, reset in a far-future/spaceborne
(and possibly alternate-universe; I was never quite clear on that)
setting. Gripping and enjoyable.
Another recommendation would be Charles deLint's "The Little Country".
Again, more a story using various mythical elements (in this case,
Welsh) but set in the present day. I couldn't put it down and was left
wanting more when I reached the last page.
Tony
Stephen Lawhead presents a good take on Arthur with his Pendragon series
- at least the first three. I haven't read more than that.
--
"The most convoluted explanation that fits all the available and made-up
facts is the most likely to be believed by conspiracy theorists"
Tony
DeLint borrows pretty heavily from Welsh mythology in a lot of his
materials. Other than Moonheart, though, I can't recall which ones in
particular.
Elaine Thompson
No idea about Llewellyn's work.
In older works:
Mary Renault's Theseus novels, _The King Must Die_ and _the Bull From
the Sea_.
Naomi Mitchison's _Corn King, Spring Queen_ (title may be a bit
mangled), and _To The Chapel Perilous_ (Grail)
More in the folklore line, Katharine Briggs' _Hobberdy Dick_, and
_Kate Crackernuts_ (found in the kids' section of my local library).
Novelisations of old tales.
I've always been surprised more writers don't use the Charlemagne
cycle. Gail Van Asten did two books using the Roland story - titles
escape me. Judith Tarr combined the Roland story with the Grail (I
didn't think much of it, but mileage varies).
Ursula Synge's _Swan's Wing_, IIRC. Novelisation based on the
<variable number> Swan Prince story. And _The SEventh Swan_ by
Nicholas Stuart Gray. (kids)
Most of Robin McKinley's work, except the two Damar novels. (Avoid the
Robin Hood one.)
Anything from the Terri Windling edited "Fairy Tale' series, published
by Ace and then Tor.
Parke Godwin's _Sherwood_ (guess what legendary character!) He also
did a Beowulf retelling _Tower of Beowulf_. And two Athurians
_Firelord_ and Beloved Exile_, and St. Patrick _ Last Rainbow_
Who wrote the story about Helen & Menelaus in Egypt? And how it was a
fake Helen who went to Troy? Rider Haggard?
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Tony
> Wayne Throop wrote:
>
>>:: Besides the billions it seems of novels involving the retelling of
>>:: the myth of Camelot/Avalon what are good novels that are retelling of
>>:: ancient myths.
>>
>>: Steven Brust, _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_
>>: Terry Pratchett, _Witches Abroad_
>>: JRR Tolkien, _The Silmarillion_ (esp. "Ainulindale")
>>: Jo Walton, _The Prize in the Game_
>>
>>Various Tannith Lee stuff, especially "Night's Master" and followups
>>in the "flat earth" setting. They get a little far from their roots,
>>but still.
>>
>>Would "Lord of Light" count as a retelling of the Mahabharata?
Forgot about that one. While we're at it, there's "Creatures of Light
and Darkness" - not a retelling, but it certainly uses Egyptian
mythology quite heavily.
Mike Schilling
"Tony" <ton...@dslextreme.WHATISTHIS.com> wrote in message
news:129lqct...@corp.supernews.com...
>>>Would "Lord of Light" count as a retelling of the Mahabharata?
>
> Forgot about that one. While we're at it, there's "Creatures of Light and
> Darkness" - not a retelling, but it certainly uses Egyptian mythology
> quite heavily.
_The Anubis Gates_ works in some Egyptian mythology too. It's
<spoiler>
</spoiler>
one of the few books where "the magic goes away" is a Good Thing.
CleV
Peter Trei
> aalu...@webtv.net wrote:
>> Besides the billions it seems of novels involving the retelling of the
>> myth of Camelot/Avalon what are good novels that are retelling of
>> ancient myths. I am reading now Morgan Llywylens The Elementals which I
>> suspect is a retelling of a mythical/folklore story since it appears she
>> has done this in other novels. I know Marion Bradley has a retelling
>> of the Helen of Troy myth.
>> So any other novels/novelists who do this well. I am planning on reading
>> more of Morgan's novels -whats her better ones?
>
> Stephen Lawhead presents a good take on Arthur with his Pendragon series
> - at least the first three. I haven't read more than that.
"The Owl Service" by Alan Garner (recently dramatized on BBC radio, you
may be able to catch it off their website). It is reworking of the
Welsh Blodeuwedd myth.
Peter Trei
dlan...@aol.com
I thought her version of _The Firebird_ was better, actually.
-Don L.
David Dyer-Bennet
Well, there's the various books in the Fairy Tales series -- started
at Ace, moved to Tor. Those aren't "ancient" generlaly, but they are
myth or related source material (including my wife's _Tam Lin_, which
is about to be reissued in August).
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd...@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
dlan...@aol.com
Several of Avram Davidson's Dr Esterhazy tales deal with bits of
folklore and myth, as well as forgotten or obscure bits of history.
None of them are simple retellings, however.But they are wonderful, and
someone with a taste for myth might well like them.
-Don L.
Brion K. Lienhart
> Brion K. Lienhart wrote:
>>>
>>
>>Mercedes Lackey has done several of them, apart from her Valdemar
>>serieses. I've read _The Black Swan_ which was pretty good, IMO.
>
>
> I thought her version of _The Firebird_ was better, actually.
>
Yahbut, I haven't read that one. _The Black Swan_ is the only one of
those that I have.
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
>Besides the billions it seems of novels involving the retelling of the
>myth of Camelot/Avalon what are good novels that are retelling of
>ancient myths. I am reading now Morgan Llywylens The Elementals which I
>suspect is a retelling of a mythical/folklore story since it appears she
>has done this in other novels.
>I know Marion Bradley has a retelling of
>the Helen of Troy myth.
>
>So any other novels/novelists who do this well.
Also, "The Owl Service", by Alan Garner, which deals with Welsh myth
playing itself out in modern times.
And while I'm at it, "The Moon of Gomrath" and "The Weirdstone of
Brisingamen", also by him.
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
>Besides the billions it seems of novels involving the retelling of the
>myth of Camelot/Avalon what are good novels that are retelling of
>ancient myths. I am reading now Morgan Llywylens The Elementals which I
>suspect is a retelling of a mythical/folklore story since it appears she
>has done this in other novels.
>I know Marion Bradley has a retelling of
>the Helen of Troy myth.
>
>So any other novels/novelists who do this well.
Mythago Wood, by Robert Holdstock
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>r.r...@thevine.net wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 00:44:25 -0400, aalu...@webtv.net wrote:
>>
>> If it's the first, the things that come to the me right off are Jo
>> Walton's _King's Name_ and _King's Peace_ (a re-telling of the Arthur
>> myth in an analogous but not identical world) and Lloyd Alexander's
>> Prydain series (based on Welsh mythology).
>
>DeLint borrows pretty heavily from Welsh mythology in a lot of his
>materials. Other than Moonheart, though, I can't recall which ones in
>particular.
Jack the Giant Killer, besides drawing on the various 'Jack' trickster
stories, draws directly on Kate Crackernuts, aka The Tale of the Two Kates
(which I love, it being uniquely the only example I know of the theme of
the Loving Step-Sisters). Jackie Rowan's best friend and co-lead is Kate
Hazel.
--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)
Joe Bednorz
"Cross the Stars". Drake also did "The Voyage," which is a sci-fi
retelling of Jason and the Argonauts. His take on what happened when
Jason returned with the fleece was interesting. He also had the Jason
character as female.
--
Alice in Wonderland Interactive Adventure: <http://www.ruthannzaroff.com/wonderland/>
Baen Free Online SciFi Library: <http://www.baen.com/library/>
SciFi.com classic & original works: <http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/archive.html>
All the best, Joe Bednorz
Robert A. Woodward
Joe Bednorz <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 22 Jun 2006 09:51:05 -0700, Peter Meilinger wrote:
>
> >
> >David Tate wrote:
> >
> >> I keep thinking there's a famous SF work based on the myth of
> >> Prometheus, but I can't bring it to mind...
> >
> >Well, there's Pratchett's The Last Hero, in which Cohen the
> >Barbarian decides he doesn't like what the gods did to the
> >Discworld version of Prometheus, who stole fire from the gods.
> >Cohen and the Silver Horde decide to give it back. With interest.
> >Wonderful book.
> >
> >I think it was Pratchett's Eric that had Rincewind encounter
> >the Disc's version of Odysseus during the Trojan War. Not
> >the main plot of the book, though.
> >
> >Didn't David Drake do a science fictional retelling of The Odyssey?
> >
>
> "Cross the Stars". Drake also did "The Voyage," which is a sci-fi
> retelling of Jason and the Argonauts. His take on what happened when
> Jason returned with the fleece was interesting. He also had the Jason
> character as female.
And, in another twist, it is a sequel to _Cross the Stars_ instead
of a prequel (and like _CtS_, Arlos Hammer makes a guess appearance
- I don't know the plot of the Argosy well enough to know if he was
filling in for Zeus again).
--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>
Luke Silburn
> So any other novels/novelists who do this well.
>
'Votan' by John James - a citizen of C2nd Rome ends up over the frontier in
Germania and his activities echo down the decades as Odin's legendary
exploits.
It also features the fruits of distillation as a key plot point now that I
think on it, so this post qualifies for the 'Alchoholic Beverages In SF'
thread as well.
Good luck finding it though.
Regards
Luke
Robert Grumbine
>:: Besides the billions it seems of novels involving the retelling of
>:: the myth of Camelot/Avalon what are good novels that are retelling of
>:: ancient myths.
>
>: Steven Brust, _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_
>: Terry Pratchett, _Witches Abroad_
>: JRR Tolkien, _The Silmarillion_ (esp. "Ainulindale")
>: Jo Walton, _The Prize in the Game_
>
>Various Tannith Lee stuff, especially "Night's Master" and followups
>in the "flat earth" setting. They get a little far from their roots,
>but still.
>
>Would "Lord of Light" count as a retelling of the Mahabharata?
I wouldn't count it so, having read both. (Well, an english
redaction of the Mahabharata only a couple hundred pages long.)
Most obviously, the Mahabharata does not have the Buddha at all
(Buddha being much later historically.) More generally, the
Mahabharata spends almost no time on gods, and when it does it
is almost always and only Krishna (who runs around with Arjuna
and his brothers), and then almost strictly as a character vs.
a deity. One of the few exceptions, where Krishna does pull
rank, is the speech/discussion between Krishna and Arjuna extracted
separately as the Bhagavad Gita.
But Lord of Light does do fairly well with the Hindu pantheon
and possible characterizations.
I don't recall all the titles (_To Die in Italbar_ was another), but
Zelazny wrote several novels with strong mythology elements around that
time. Sometimes, as with Italbar, he invented his own.
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
Joe Bednorz
"Eye of Cat" for Native American religion/myth?
Wayne Throop
:: I don't recall all the titles (_To Die in Italbar_ was another), but
:: Zelazny wrote several novels with strong mythology elements around
:: that time. Sometimes, as with Italbar, he invented his own.
: Joe Bednorz <inv...@invalid.invalid>
: "Eye of Cat" for Native American religion/myth?
Plus "This Immortal" for greek, "Creatures of Light and Darkness"
for egyptian, and arguably "A Night in the Lonesome October"
for cthulhuian. Seems to me there are more, but I can't call
them to mind. Possibly "Jack of Shadows", what with it having
Morningstar in it? Or the Amber books, what with them having...
well... everything in 'em? Sort of.
Mike Schilling
"Wayne Throop" <thr...@sheol.org> wrote in message
news:11510...@sheol.org...
The Amber books would have been more fun if they'd had more, I think. But
we have _Silverlock_ for that.
Joe Bernstein
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 00:44:25 -0400, aalu...@webtv.net wrote:
> >Besides the billions it seems of novels involving the retelling of the
> >myth of Camelot/Avalon what are good novels that are retelling of
> >ancient myths. I am reading now Morgan Llywylens The Elementals which I
> >suspect is a retelling of a mythical/folklore story since it appears she
> >has done this in other novels.
> >I know Marion Bradley has a retelling of
> >the Helen of Troy myth.
> >
> >So any other novels/novelists who do this well. I am planning on reading
> >more of Morgan's novels -whats her better ones?
> No idea about Llewellyn's work.
I've read, long ago, her novel about Brian Boru, but he's history not
myth. (I'm tolerably confident the book isn't even marginally a fantasy,
but don't take my word for it...)
> Who wrote the story about Helen & Menelaus in Egypt? And how it was a
> fake Helen who went to Troy? Rider Haggard?
Um, I dunno, but NB that that isn't some kind of strange modern twist.
Euripides did a play on that basis, and it wasn't original to him
either. (Think, look ... "According to Plato in the <Phaedros>,
when Stesichoros was blinded for having slandered Helen, he, unlike
Homer who was blinded for the same sin, wrote a <Palinode>, a
recantation, and immediately recovered his sight." This is a
footnote p. 110 of <Sappho and the Greek Lyric Poets> trans. Willis
Barnstone, New York: Schocken Books, c 1988. Stesichoros supposedly
lived 630-555 BC.).
This thread has focused on books that *use* mythic materials,
although Llewellyn tends to do actual *retellings* of mythic
or historical materials, which is a much narrower category.
In the "ancient" field, I can think offhand of <Till We Have
Faces>, already mentioned, and a trilogy by Patrick Adkins
that I haven't read but gather is actual retelling. But I'm
sure there's more.
I ~recently read but now can't remember title/author of a book
which tried *really, really hard* to work on a very sophisticated
sort of retelling level with various Sumerian myths, notably
the one about the descent of Ishtar to the nether world, also
some of the Gilgamesh stories. I didn't think the novel worked
in the end but it was certainly compelling reading to me, as
someone who'd read most of the source material; I was very
impressed with the author's ability to turn it into a coherent
science fiction (yes, seriously) novel. I'm positive I posted
about it after reading it, so a search on my posts (this address)
with Ishtar and Gilgamesh as search terms has a fair chance of
turning up the info.
More if I think of 'em.
Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein, writer j...@sfbooks.com
<http://www.panix.com/~josephb/> "She suited my mood, Sarah Mondleigh
did - it was like having a kitten in the room, like a vote for unreason."
<Glass Mountain>, Cynthia Voigt
Joe Bednorz
>In article <uthm92lqgjn0ugd64...@4ax.com>,
> Joe Bednorz <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 22 Jun 2006 09:51:05 -0700, Peter Meilinger wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >David Tate wrote:
>> >
>> >> I keep thinking there's a famous SF work based on the myth of
>> >> Prometheus, but I can't bring it to mind...
>> >
>> >Well, there's Pratchett's The Last Hero, in which Cohen the
>> >Barbarian decides he doesn't like what the gods did to the
>> >Discworld version of Prometheus, who stole fire from the gods.
>> >Cohen and the Silver Horde decide to give it back. With interest.
>> >Wonderful book.
>> >
>> >I think it was Pratchett's Eric that had Rincewind encounter
>> >the Disc's version of Odysseus during the Trojan War. Not
>> >the main plot of the book, though.
>> >
>> >Didn't David Drake do a science fictional retelling of The Odyssey?
>> >
>>
>> "Cross the Stars". Drake also did "The Voyage," which is a sci-fi
>> retelling of Jason and the Argonauts. His take on what happened when
>> Jason returned with the fleece was interesting. He also had the Jason
>> character as female.
>
>And, in another twist, it is a sequel to _Cross the Stars_ instead
>of a prequel (and like _CtS_, Arlos Hammer makes a guess appearance
^^^^^ Alois
>- I don't know the plot of the Argosy well enough to know if he was
>filling in for Zeus again).
I believe the incident in the book was directly drawn from the
Harpies' torment of a man by eating the food delivered to him. (Based
on the character of Phineus in the classic movie "Jason and the
Argonauts", with special effects by Ray Harryhausen.)
The basic setup is that the voyage to get the Golden Fleece is
supposed to be a suicide mission, killing Jason. That will solve a
nasty political problem. Jason sees the only solution is to actually
succeed. The best heros/warriors in the known universe are recruited as
crew.
As for his qualifications to write military science fiction and to use
history/myths. From the book jacket for "The Dance of Time":
"David Drake - Vietnam veteran, former lawyer, former bus driver, and
now best-selling author..." "Drake graduated Phi Beta Kappa from the
University of Iowa, majoring in history (with honors) and Latin. His
stint at Duke University Law School was interrupted for two years by the
U. S. Army, where he served as an enlisted interrogator with the 11th
Armored Cavalry in Vietnam and Cambodia."
Does that mean you have to like David Drake's work? No. (I don't
particularly like all of his work.) It doesn't even mean you have to
respect his work unread. (Lots of superficially qualified people turn
out dreck.) It does mean (to me) that the verisimilitude I found in his
work may well have a solid foundation. In other words, the result does
*not* read "...like a saga about sensitive Vikings." (cf. infra). It
also means that there's more realism in Drake's work than most people
want in their escapism.
His author's notes do a lot to bridge the gap between the modern world
and that of ancient history.
From the Author's Note at the end of "The Voyage" copyright 1994. (My
comment/footnotes are in square brackets):
"The earliest form of the legend of Jason and the Argonauts can be
reconstructed only from literary fragments and vase paintings. In this
version, Jason appears to have sailed west, into the Adriatic, rather
than east to the ends of the Black Sea. Readers with an interest in
Greek myth will notice that I've adapted portions of this 'Urmythus' in
the plot of 'The Voyage.' Most significantly, the original Jason
doesn't sow the dragon's teeth. Rather, the yokes the bronze bulls to
battle the water monster which guards the Golden Fleece.
"I don't mean to imply that I ignored the 'Argonautica' of the third
century B.C. poet Apollonius Rhodius. On the contrary, Apollonius was
my inspiration and main source.
"The problem facing Apollonius is similar to that of a modern writer
who intends to rework ancient legends. Apollonius was a cultured man
working in a period of high civilization. His material, however, was
that of the Heroic Age and would inevitably be compared to the use made
of the Heroic Age by Dark Age writers like Homer (the two Homers, in my
opinion).
"The result is oddly disquieting. Apollonius was a very skillful
writer. His characters are well drawn and their motivations are
perfectly understandable to a modern reader. The problem is that the
events and activities Apollonius describes are generally those of a much
harsher period; a period that *wasn't* civilized, by his standards or by
ours. The result reads like a saga about sensitive Vikings or the
autobiography of a self-effacing quattrocentro duke.
"The partial failure of an excellent craftsman like Apollonius was a
warning to me. To achieve what I believe is a more suitable tone for my
adaptation, I reread the 'Iliad'[1]. Frankly, HOmer's stark vision of
reality is closer to that of my own mind anyway.
"Apollonius wasn't merely a negative model for me, either. Many of
the classical authors had a remarkable talent for sketching minor
characters with a line or two. Apollonius was near the forefront of
that group.
"The members of the Swift's[2] crew are generally the characters whom
capsule descriptions in the 'Argonautica' evoked in my mind."
[Skipping some technical details, which character was which. What
historical locations corresponded to book locations, etc.]
"Apollonius ends his poem just as the 'Argo' comes back home to
harbor. There's a reason for his decision--the same reason that
Eisenstein halts the action of the[sic] 'The Battleship Potemkin' where
he does: what comes next is pretty horrifying. I went on and described
the return as well; partly because it is a major part of the myth, but
primarily because I find it morally necessary--for me--to show precisely
where certain courses of conduct and tricks[sic? maybe tracks?] of
though lead.
"The use of force is *always* an answer to problems. Whether or not
it'a a satisfactory answer depends on a number of things, not least the
personality of the person making the determination.
"Force isn't an attractive answer, though. I would not be true to
myself or to the people I served with in 1970 if I did not make that
realization clear.
Dave Drake
Chatham Country, NC"
[1] Probably in the original Latin.
[2] The name of Argo in "The Voyage"
For those who like straight fantasy that is myth, try David Drake's
"Lord of the Isles" series.
Lord of the Isles
Queen of Demons
Servant of the Dragon
Mistress of the Catacombs
Goddess of the Ice Realm
Master of the Cauldron
Fortress of Glass (From the book jacket: "The first volume of 'The
Crown of the Isles' trilogy, which will conclude Lord of the Isles.
A true trilogy, the action extends over a whole three-book arc.")
I don't know how much of the detailed myths Drake took from history.
I do know that the imagination in any one of those books is almost
overpowering. Fascination glimpses of other worlds/universes are
profligately used in a throw away fashion.
The style may not always be to your taste. (It wasn't to mine when I
read the first volume. Like some of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books,
there's too much there to get in a single reading.) When it comes to
structure, no one besides Terry Pratchett may be able to keep up. It's
difficult to know with Terry Pratchett. Yes, there's been some
retconning, but considering the overall scope of his work and the
incredibly stylish performance it's a tremendous achievement.)
Of course, anything above that is not quoted is just my opinion.
Robert Grumbine
Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
[snip]
>I ~recently read but now can't remember title/author of a book
>which tried *really, really hard* to work on a very sophisticated
>sort of retelling level with various Sumerian myths, notably
>the one about the descent of Ishtar to the nether world, also
>some of the Gilgamesh stories. I didn't think the novel worked
>in the end but it was certainly compelling reading to me, as
>someone who'd read most of the source material; I was very
>impressed with the author's ability to turn it into a coherent
>science fiction (yes, seriously) novel. I'm positive I posted
>about it after reading it, so a search on my posts (this address)
>with Ishtar and Gilgamesh as search terms has a fair chance of
>turning up the info.
Robert Silverberg's take on Gilgamesh?
I liked it when I first read it. Since then I've learned more
about the original mythology, and have a scholarly translation
of the original material on my nightstand now. Retrospectively,
I think he did an even better job (to the archeology) than I
did at the time (which is ca. 20 years ago). Whether it exactly
'worked' as a novel ... de gustibus non disutandum est. It was
fine by me.
In, perhaps, related vein, I have a very nice popular scholarly oriented
book on the moundbuilders (_The Mound Builders_) by Robert Silverberg.
(copyright 1970 for the original writing) I'm not enough of a writing
stylist observer to be sure that it's the same writer. And it's
not an uncommon name*. Anyone know if it is the same Silverberg?
*Even in the small world of usenet, I'm not the only Robert Grumbine.
The other is Robert E. 'Bob' Grumbine, MBA, who is a well-known
and frequent kook of the month candidate. I'm not him. Nor am
I the R. Edward Grumbine who is a noted ecologist and author of
_Ghost Bears_. As Grumbine is far less common than Silverberg,
I'm leery of simply assuming that they're the same people.
Christopher J. Henrich
Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
> Who wrote the story about Helen & Menelaus in Egypt? And how it was a
> fake Helen who went to Troy? Rider Haggard?
That might be "After Ten Years," by C. S. Lewis. (He wrote about three
chapters, but did not live to finish it..)
--
Chris Henrich
http://www.mathinteract.com
God just doesn't fit inside a single religion.
alanm...@yahoo.com
aalu...@webtv.net wrote:
> Besides the billions it seems of novels involving the retelling of the
> myth of Camelot/Avalon what are good novels that are retelling of
> ancient myths. I am reading now Morgan Llywylens The Elementals which I
> suspect is a retelling of a mythical/folklore story since it appears she
> has done this in other novels.
> I know Marion Bradley has a retelling of
> the Helen of Troy myth.
>
> So any other novels/novelists who do this well. I am planning on reading
> more of Morgan's novels -whats her better ones?
"Tain", by Gregory Frost, is the novelization of "The Cattle Raid of
Cooley", a famous Irish Epic- I think Gregory Frost has also written
other stories taken from Irish Mythology.
"Hrolf Kraki's Saga", by Poul Anderson, is a retelling of Norse
mythological tales. If you're familiar with "Beowulf", you'll
recognise Hroar.
More loosely mythological is "Three Hearts and Three Lions", by Poul
Anderson- this story relies on the Charlemagne saga, making Roland its
hero.
My favorite mythological series though, is
"The Complete Enchanter", by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt,
where the protagonist learns the mathematics of magic, and winds up
visiting the worlds of the Norse Gods at the time of fimbulwinter, the
world of Spencer's "Faerie Queene", the world of Orlando Furioso,
the world of Cu Chulainn, also addressed by Gregory Frost in "Tain",
and the world of the Finnish Kalevala- A. McIntire
Elaine Thompson
<j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>In article <tcml92pbgm1m8l1mp...@4ax.com>,
>Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
>
...
>
>> Who wrote the story about Helen & Menelaus in Egypt? And how it was a
>> fake Helen who went to Troy? Rider Haggard?
>
>Um, I dunno, but NB that that isn't some kind of strange modern twist.
>Euripides did a play on that basis, and it wasn't original to him
>either. (Think, look ... "According to Plato in the <Phaedros>,
>when Stesichoros was blinded for having slandered Helen, he, unlike
>Homer who was blinded for the same sin, wrote a <Palinode>, a
>recantation, and immediately recovered his sight."
And I probably read the Plato in college, too. Shows how much stuck.
Didn't get that Euripides, though.
What I was remembering was a paperback book with a yellowish cover I
read at *least* twenty years ago. Title might have had "Desire" in
it. It was a whole novel, and other than the subject I remember
almost nothing about it. The style of the writing might have been
more on the Victorian end, than modern, which is where I came up with
Haggard.
This is a
>footnote p. 110 of <Sappho and the Greek Lyric Poets> trans. Willis
>Barnstone, New York: Schocken Books, c 1988. Stesichoros supposedly
>lived 630-555 BC.).
Learned from his predecessor's fate, I guess, to recant.
>
>This thread has focused on books that *use* mythic materials,
>although Llewellyn tends to do actual *retellings* of mythic
>or historical materials, which is a much narrower category.
>In the "ancient" field, I can think offhand of <Till We Have
>Faces>, already mentioned, and a trilogy by Patrick Adkins
>that I haven't read but gather is actual retelling. But I'm
>sure there's more.
I can think of some kids books that deal with Troy or Medea, but not
much in the adult line retelling ancient Greek stuff. Just one: _Whom
the Gods Would Destroy_ by Powers does tackle the Illiad. And that
you'd have to get used or from the library.
Someone's mentioned Frost's retelling of the Tain Bo Cuilagne (sp?),
which reminds me, Jo Walton's _Prize in the Game_ also retells it.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
David Goldfarb
Joe Bednorz <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> From the Author's Note at the end of "The Voyage" copyright 1994. (My
>comment/footnotes are in square brackets):
>adaptation, I reread the 'Iliad'[1].
>
> Chatham Country, NC"
>
>[1] Probably in the original Latin.
I'm not sure if you're joking. In case you're not: No.
It is of course possible that David Drake has studied ancient Greek also.
--
David Goldfarb |"Bagels can be an enormous force for good or
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | for evil. It is up to us to decide how we
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | will use them."
| -- Daniel M. Pinkwater
Alexey Romanov
There is a pretty good retelling of Mahabharata by Henry Lyon Oldie. Three
volumes, dealing with lives of Bhishma, Drona and Karna. Indra is the
protagonist of the frame, but get more screen time in the third volume.
Unfortunately, it is in Russian, but should be pretty well translatable.
Pete Granzeau
(David Goldfarb) wrote:
>In article <5pjo92hhcihhlm2ht...@4ax.com>,
>Joe Bednorz <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> From the Author's Note at the end of "The Voyage" copyright 1994. (My
>>comment/footnotes are in square brackets):
>>. To achieve what I believe is a more suitable tone for my
>>adaptation, I reread the 'Iliad'[1].
>>
>> Dave Drake
>> Chatham Country, NC"
>>
>>[1] Probably in the original Latin.
>
>I'm not sure if you're joking. In case you're not: No.
>It is of course possible that David Drake has studied ancient Greek also.
Maybe he meant the Aenead?
lclough
> In article <e7hnlc$lv7$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
>>I ~recently read but now can't remember title/author of a book
>>which tried *really, really hard* to work on a very sophisticated
>>sort of retelling level with various Sumerian myths, notably
>>the one about the descent of Ishtar to the nether world, also
>>some of the Gilgamesh stories. I didn't think the novel worked
>>in the end but it was certainly compelling reading to me, as
>>someone who'd read most of the source material; I was very
>>impressed with the author's ability to turn it into a coherent
>>science fiction (yes, seriously) novel. I'm positive I posted
>>about it after reading it, so a search on my posts (this address)
>>with Ishtar and Gilgamesh as search terms has a fair chance of
>>turning up the info.
>
>
> Robert Silverberg's take on Gilgamesh?
>
> I liked it when I first read it. Since then I've learned more
> about the original mythology, and have a scholarly translation
> of the original material on my nightstand now. Retrospectively,
> I think he did an even better job (to the archeology) than I
> did at the time (which is ca. 20 years ago). Whether it exactly
> 'worked' as a novel ... de gustibus non disutandum est. It was
> fine by me.
>
There is a novel by a British author out within the last 5 years
or so, titled simply GILGAMESH. (Blue cover, picture of
bas-relief.) It wasn't very good.
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Recent short fiction:
FUTURE WASHINGTON (WSFA Press, October '05)
http://www.futurewashington.com
FIRST HEROES (TOR, May '04)
http://members.aol.com/wenamun/firstheroes.html
Mike Schilling
"lclough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:0Ugng.1940$il.994@trnddc03...
>
>
> There is a novel by a British author out within the last 5 years or so,
> titled simply GILGAMESH. (Blue cover, picture of bas-relief.) It wasn't
> very good.
Gil Gamesh is one of the main characters in Philip Roth's _The Great
American Novel_. He's a pitcher of superhuman ability and Babylonian
descent.
Westprog
Thorne Smith - The Night Life Of The Gods. It's probably one of the first
novels to feature the Greek/Roman gods in a contemporary setting, though
it's played chiefly for laughs.
J/
BOTW: "Enigma" - Hugh Sebag-Montefiore
lclough
Tch. Babylon is one with Nineveh and Tyre. Better he should
have hailed from Basra or Mosul.
Brenda <has done a couple things with Gil herself>
Mike Schilling
> Mike Schilling wrote:
>
>> "lclough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote in message
>> news:0Ugng.1940$il.994@trnddc03...
>>
>>>
>>>There is a novel by a British author out within the last 5 years or so,
>>>titled simply GILGAMESH. (Blue cover, picture of bas-relief.) It wasn't
>>>very good.
>>
>>
>> Gil Gamesh is one of the main characters in Philip Roth's _The Great
>> American Novel_. He's a pitcher of superhuman ability and Babylonian
>> descent.
>
>
> Tch. Babylon is one with Nineveh and Tyre. Better he should have hailed
> from Basra or Mosul.
>
He was also a bitter man, his father having been beaten to death by two guys
from Tierra del Fuego who had it in for Babylonians.
Joe Bednorz
Simple brain damage on my part.
Btw, http://www.baen.com/library/ddrake.htm has the following David
Drake books available for free on-line:
With the Lightnings - 1st book in the Lt. Leary series
Lt. Leary Commanding - 2nd book in the Lt. Leary series.
Seas of Venus
The Tyrant - Last (so far) in the Raj Whitehall and/or Center
stories. Co-authored with Eric Flint. All the other
books in this series were done with S. M. Stirling.
The Sea Hag - Short stories
The Tank Lords - Novella in the Hammers Slammers universe.
Northworld - First book of Drake's retelling of the Elder Edda(?)
The Drake/Flint Belisarius alternate history series:
An Oblique Approach - 1st
In the Heart of Darkness - 2nd
Destiny's Shield - 3rd
Redliners - A unit of burnt-out assault troops protects reluctant
colonists. One of my favorites.
Old Nathan - Offshoot of Manly Wade Wellman's Silver John stories.
(Short stories.)
Cross the Stars - Retelling of the Odyssey.
Paying the Piper
Sea Wasp
> Mike Schilling wrote:
>
>> "lclough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote in message
>> news:0Ugng.1940$il.994@trnddc03...
>>
>>>
>>> There is a novel by a British author out within the last 5 years or
>>> so, titled simply GILGAMESH. (Blue cover, picture of bas-relief.)
>>> It wasn't very good.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gil Gamesh is one of the main characters in Philip Roth's _The Great
>> American Novel_. He's a pitcher of superhuman ability and Babylonian
>> descent.
>>
>
>
> Tch. Babylon is one with Nineveh and Tyre. Better he should have
> hailed from Basra or Mosul.
>
> Brenda <has done a couple things with Gil herself>
After reading Girl Genius, the name is inextricably linked with the
last name "Wulfenbach".
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Joe Bednorz
>On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:18:23 -0400, Pete Granzeau wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 06:55:04 +0000 (UTC), gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU
>>(David Goldfarb) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <5pjo92hhcihhlm2ht...@4ax.com>,
>>>Joe Bednorz <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> From the Author's Note at the end of "The Voyage" copyright 1994. (My
>>>>comment/footnotes are in square brackets):
>>>>. To achieve what I believe is a more suitable tone for my
>>>>adaptation, I reread the 'Iliad'[1].
>>>>
>>>> Dave Drake
>>>> Chatham Country, NC"
>>>>
>>>>[1] Probably in the original Latin.
>>>
>>>I'm not sure if you're joking. In case you're not: No.
>>>It is of course possible that David Drake has studied ancient Greek also.
>>
>>Maybe he meant the Aenead?
>
> Simple brain damage on my part.
>
> Btw, http://www.baen.com/library/ddrake.htm has the following David
>Drake books available for free on-line:
>
>
<edit>
>
> The Sea Hag - Short stories
Speaking of brain damage, this is a fantasy novel, not a story
collection.
<more editing>
Dan Goodman
> Mike Schilling wrote:
>
> >"lclough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote in message
> >
> > >
> > > There is a novel by a British author out within the last 5 years
> > > or so, titled simply GILGAMESH. (Blue cover, picture of
> > > bas-relief.) It wasn't very good.
> >
> > Gil Gamesh is one of the main characters in Philip Roth's _The
> > Great American Novel_. He's a pitcher of superhuman ability and
> > Babylonian descent.
>
> Tch. Babylon is one with Nineveh and Tyre. Better he should have
> hailed from Basra or Mosul.
>
> Brenda <has done a couple things with Gil herself>
He shows up in a couple of Wilson Tucker novels: _The Time Masters_
and _Wild Talent_
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Joe Bernstein
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I believe the incident in the book was directly drawn from the
> Harpies' torment of a man by eating the food delivered to him. (Based
> on the character of Phineus in the classic movie "Jason and the
> Argonauts", with special effects by Ray Harryhausen.)
Do you have a reason to believe it's based on the movie version
instead of on Apollonios, which in the quote below Drake says was
his main source? I don't have a copy of the movie, nor any particular
desire to dig through one comparing it to the epic, but am curious
whether you've done so.
> From the Author's Note at the end of "The Voyage" copyright 1994. (My
> comment/footnotes are in square brackets):
I just want to add a few more footnotes.
> "The earliest form of the legend of Jason and the Argonauts can be
> reconstructed only from literary fragments and vase paintings. In this
> version, Jason appears to have sailed west, into the Adriatic, rather
> than east to the ends of the Black Sea. Readers with an interest in
> Greek myth will notice that I've adapted portions of this 'Urmythus' in
> the plot of 'The Voyage.' Most significantly, the original Jason
> doesn't sow the dragon's teeth. Rather, the yokes the bronze bulls to
> battle the water monster which guards the Golden Fleece.
This <Argonautica> was an actual written epic, though it's now lost
and I don't know how many fragments (if indeed any) survive. It
was not part of the "Epic Cycle", which was actually three cycles
(the Trojan one most often called by that name, a Theban one, and
one about the gods), but it was about the most prestigious of the
non-cyclic epics, except perhaps the Heracles one.
(And yes, there was presumably an oral epic back of the written
one - well, in this case, we're actually pretty sure there was,
which isn't the case for every epic.)
> "I don't mean to imply that I ignored the 'Argonautica' of the third
> century B.C. poet Apollonius Rhodius. On the contrary, Apollonius was
> my inspiration and main source.
There are two other surviving ancient <Argonautica>s, I think.
One is actually in Latin (all the rest of the epics under
discussion here are in Greek, OK excepting the jape reference
to the <Aeneid>...). This is Valerius Flaccus's, and is generally
believed to date to sometime around the year AD 100.
I read it, but in a Loeb translation, which is usually the worst
way to read anything literary if you have a serious alternative.
Essentially nothing about it stuck in my mind. OK, I did just
remember one thing: Valerius's geography is even wackier than
the <Argonautica> standard; I think the Argo spends some time
on the Danube in his version.
I'm not sure whether the other ancient <Argonautica> known to me
actually survives or not. I see people referring to something
called "the Orphic <Argonautica>", but every time I try to home in
on an actual publication of the text, let alone a translation, it
turns into mist before me. I have no idea why this should be
the case - it isn't (quite) true of other Orphic texts, let alone
of *anything* else from the Graeco-Roman world. (I mean, I even
found a translation of Hosidius Geta [1]...) But anyway...
> "Apollonius ends his poem just as the 'Argo' comes back home to
> harbor. There's a reason for his decision--the same reason that
> Eisenstein halts the action of the[sic] 'The Battleship Potemkin' where
> he does: what comes next is pretty horrifying. I went on and described
> the return as well; partly because it is a major part of the myth, but
> primarily because I find it morally necessary--for me--to show precisely
> where certain courses of conduct and tricks[sic? maybe tracks?] of
> though lead.
Um. It's hard to establish the meaning given that your typing here
shows a typo only two words away, but I can imagine he really did
mean "tricks". Would have to read the book to assess this. (And
now that I know it's a sequel, sigh, that's likely to be later
than sooner... I don't own the previous book.)
But the reason I'm quoting this is that I'm wondering what he
used for a source for whatever nasty parts of Jason's story he
did include. Did he rely on the tragedians? On modern syntheses?
I don't remember whether Valerius Flaccus dealt with this stuff -
surely I'd have noticed more of his book if he did? (OK, a reference
book says he didn't, and also casts doubts on the Danube thing) - and
obviously can't guess whether the Orphic folks did (though it seems
mildly unlikely).
Michael Ikeda
news:e7k767$ke0$1...@news.datemas.de:
>
> Thorne Smith - The Night Life Of The Gods. It's probably one of
> the first novels to feature the Greek/Roman gods in a
> contemporary setting, though it's played chiefly for laughs.
Charles Saunders' Imaro series may qualify. Not sure how much the
various supernaturalish events are based on real African myths, but
most of the tribes/societies that Imaro encounters are mythicized
versions of historical African tribes/societies.
(Incidentally, Saunders has revised the first "Imaro" novel and the
revised novel has been released in trade paperback form.)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Joe Bednorz
>In article <5pjo92hhcihhlm2ht...@4ax.com>, Joe Bednorz
><inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I believe the incident in the book was directly drawn from the
>> Harpies' torment of a man by eating the food delivered to him. (Based
>> on the character of Phineus in the classic movie "Jason and the
>> Argonauts", with special effects by Ray Harryhausen.)
>
>Do you have a reason to believe it's based on the movie version
>instead of on Apollonios, which in the quote below Drake says was
>his main source? I don't have a copy of the movie, nor any particular
>desire to dig through one comparing it to the epic, but am curious
>whether you've done so.
I used the movie because it was easy to look up and provide a
reference. A quote in the imdb identified Phineus for me: "Zeus, I was
a sinner. I've never tried to deny it. But I didn't sin every day. Why
then do you punish me every day?" Also, Drake duplicated the form of
punishment: Plenty of food supplied every day, which was stolen before
it could be eaten.
(The "Based on..." comment referred to what my belief was based on. I
knew it could be misleading but wanted to get the message posted.)
>
>> From the Author's Note at the end of "The Voyage" copyright 1994. (My
>> comment/footnotes are in square brackets):
>
>I just want to add a few more footnotes.
Thanks. Nice to get a substantive response.
>I'm not sure whether the other ancient <Argonautica> known to me
>actually survives or not. I see people referring to something
>called "the Orphic <Argonautica>", but every time I try to home in
>on an actual publication of the text, let alone a translation, it
>turns into mist before me. I have no idea why this should be
>the case - it isn't (quite) true of other Orphic texts, let alone
>of *anything* else from the Graeco-Roman world. (I mean, I even
>found a translation of Hosidius Geta [1]...) But anyway...
This might be a good place to start:
<http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/mailing_lists/CLA-L/2004/07/0866.php>
"F. Vian (ed., tr.), Les Argonautiques Orphiques (Paris 1987)"
"For the OA, Vian lists on pp. 64-5 only ten editions (all continental)
from 1500 to 1930, and nothing between that and his own. He mentions a
few other texts on p. 51. He discusses translations on pp. 52-3: there
are several in Latin and German, and one each in Danish, French and
Italian, before 1900. For the 20th C., Vian lists only Dottin (French,
1930) and Kanakis (modern Greek, 1971)."
>
>> "Apollonius ends his poem just as the 'Argo' comes back home to
>> harbor. There's a reason for his decision--the same reason that
>> Eisenstein halts the action of the[sic] 'The Battleship Potemkin' where
>> he does: what comes next is pretty horrifying. I went on and described
>> the return as well; partly because it is a major part of the myth, but
>> primarily because I find it morally necessary--for me--to show precisely
>> where certain courses of conduct and tricks[sic? maybe tracks?] of
>> though lead.
^^^^^^
thought (Yes, that was a typo on my part.)
>
>Um. It's hard to establish the meaning given that your typing here
>shows a typo only two words away, but I can imagine he really did
>mean "tricks". Would have to read the book to assess this. (And
>now that I know it's a sequel, sigh, that's likely to be later
>than sooner... I don't own the previous book.)
On his website <http://www.david-drake.com/voyage.html>
David Drake says:
"It's [The Voyage] a sequel of sorts to Cross the Stars--a minor
character from the earlier novel is the hero of this one...."
I don't think reading "Cross the Stars" is at all a requirement for
reading "The Voyage."
It may be a moot point, since "Cross the Stars", is available from the
free Baen on-line library at <http://www.baen.com/library/ddrake.htm>.
>
>But the reason I'm quoting this is that I'm wondering what he
>used for a source for whatever nasty parts of Jason's story he
>did include.
From David Drake's website:
"He [Apollonius] told the story of the Argo very skillfully, but he
didn't describe (and perhaps couldn't visualize) the brutal realities
that must have underlain such a story."
This quote includes everything I omitted from the Author's Note in my
previous post. After much editing the quote is no longer necessary to
this post, but since I've already typed it...:
"The members of the Swift's crew are generally the characters whom
capsule descriptions in the 'Argonautica' evoked in my mind. Thus
Apollonius' Idas became my Herne Lordling; Telamon and Peleus became the
Warson brothers; Calais and Zetes became the Boxalls (though here I
mined Propertius as well); the young Meleager became Josie Paetz, while
his two uncles were combined into the character of Yazov; Periclymenus
became Raff--and so on.
"Most (though not all) of the Swift's layovers are from points
Apollonius describes in the course of the 'Argo', though I've
significantly reduced the number as well as changing their sequence.
I've tried to maintain Apollonius' rough balance of events on ten
outward voyage, in Colchis, and on the return.
"Because some readers will want to know the originals from which I
build my fictions, and because (based on my past experience) most
reviewers commenting on the sources will get them wrong, the equivalents
are as follows:
Telaria/Iolcos;
Ajax Four/Mt Dindymon
Mirandola/Lemnos;
Paixhans' Node/Salmydessos in Thrace;
Burr-Detlingen/the Isle of Thynni;
the Sole Solution/the Planctae (the Clashing Rocks);
Buiin/the Island of Ares;
Pancahte/Colchis;
Wasatch 1029/Trinacria (which isn't really Sicily; but then I don't
suppose Colchis was much the way Apollonius describes the place
either);
Kazan/a combination of Crete (which Talos guards) and the Po Valley;
Celandine/a combination of the Brygaean Islands and Drepane (Homer's
Phaeacia);
Dell/Mt Pelion"
Joe Bernstein
Joe Bednorz <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 06:04:14 +0000 (UTC), Joe Bernstein wrote:
> >In article <5pjo92hhcihhlm2ht...@4ax.com>, Joe Bednorz
> ><inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> I believe the incident in the book was directly drawn from the
> >> Harpies' torment of a man by eating the food delivered to him. (Based
> >> on the character of Phineus in the classic movie "Jason and the
> >> Argonauts", with special effects by Ray Harryhausen.)
> >Do you have a reason to believe it's based on the movie version
> >instead of on Apollonios, which in the quote below Drake says was
> >his main source? I don't have a copy of the movie, nor any particular
> >desire to dig through one comparing it to the epic, but am curious
> >whether you've done so.
> I used the movie because it was easy to look up and provide a
> reference. A quote in the imdb identified Phineus for me: "Zeus, I was
> a sinner. I've never tried to deny it. But I didn't sin every day. Why
> then do you punish me every day?" Also, Drake duplicated the form of
> punishment: Plenty of food supplied every day, which was stolen before
> it could be eaten.
>
> (The "Based on..." comment referred to what my belief was based on. I
> knew it could be misleading but wanted to get the message posted.)
The form of punishment is from Apollonius, if not earlier; it's a
standard part of the <Argonautica> story.
> >> From the Author's Note at the end of "The Voyage" copyright 1994. (My
> >> comment/footnotes are in square brackets):
> >I just want to add a few more footnotes.
> Thanks. Nice to get a substantive response.
Well, thanks right back. I'm just kind of gasping in amazement that
I could bring up something that's been an occasional problem for me
for *years* - I mean, I'm not sure I looked for the Orphic <Argonautica>
back in 1991-1992, but I'm quite sure I did in 1996-1997... and you
hop onto the Web and find it in no time. I sure wish my Web searches
tended to be anywhere near so productive!
(At my website you can find more typical examples for me. Let me
think... <http://www.panix.com/~josephb/fishtory/chapter2/note1.html>
sv Akkadian and Tocharian.)
> >I'm not sure whether the other ancient <Argonautica> known to me
> >actually survives or not. I see people referring to something
> >called "the Orphic <Argonautica>", but every time I try to home in
> >on an actual publication of the text, let alone a translation, it
> >turns into mist before me.
> >I even found a translation of Hosidius Geta [1]...) But anyway...
(Apologies for the omitted footnote. There was this fad in late
antiquity for writing poems by piecing together lines from older
poems; it may have extended to prose too, but what I know about is
poems. The theory was that since Vergil and such were such perfect
writers of Latin, there was no point trying to outdo them on the
line/sentence level; rather one should seek a new arrangement of
their perfect lines. Often, of course, a Christian arrangement.
Anyway, the poems that resulted are called "centos". I've only read
- OK, in translation - one, a sort of devotional travel poem IIRC, by
Proba, a fourth-century woman; admittedly I don't remember much about
the content, but I do remember liking it. ANYWAY, Hosidius Geta
wrote a *play* by doing the cento thing. And what do you know?
Bringing us full circle, it's a <Medea>! Third century, I think,
making it one of the earliest centos, assuming I'm remembering
that part right and not slandering the guy. There are two *more*
never-discussed late plays, by the way, neither of which as best
I've heard is a cento: an <Orestes> by Dracontius, 5th century,
and something called <Christus Patiens> IIRC that was attributed
to one of the Byzantine Gregorys but no longer is. If you own a
"Complete Greek Drama", or "Roman", you were almost certainly lied to...)
> This might be a good place to start:
>
> <http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/mailing_lists/CLA-L/2004/07/0866.php>
> "F. Vian (ed., tr.), Les Argonautiques Orphiques (Paris 1987)"
This will certainly be a Bude. Which means libraries will own it.
Hot damn!
But why could I never find it, then? Admittedly I never tried a
web search, but I certainly checked a lot of library catalogues.
> "For the OA, Vian lists on pp. 64-5 only ten editions (all continental)
> from 1500 to 1930, and nothing between that and his own. He mentions a
> few other texts on p. 51. He discusses translations on pp. 52-3: there
> are several in Latin and German, and one each in Danish, French and
> Italian, before 1900. For the 20th C., Vian lists only Dottin (French,
> 1930) and Kanakis (modern Greek, 1971)."
This at least is plausible.
So no Englishing. Well, I'll live. I have a suspicion, though, that
I tend to overrate things I read in French, so that may be a problem.
Could always read it in German instead; I *know* that never helps a
text for me...
> >> "Apollonius ends his poem just as the 'Argo' comes back home to
> >> harbor. There's a reason for his decision--the same reason that
> >> Eisenstein halts the action of the[sic] 'The Battleship Potemkin' where
> >> he does: what comes next is pretty horrifying. I went on and described
> >> the return as well; partly because it is a major part of the myth, but
> >> primarily because I find it morally necessary--for me--to show precisely
> >> where certain courses of conduct and tricks[sic? maybe tracks?] of
> >> thought lead.
> >But the reason I'm quoting this is that I'm wondering what he
> >used for a source for whatever nasty parts of Jason's story he
> >did include.
> From David Drake's website:
>
> "He [Apollonius] told the story of the Argo very skillfully, but he
> didn't describe (and perhaps couldn't visualize) the brutal realities
> that must have underlain such a story."
Oh, I'm not asking whether he had a source for making Apollonius's
version nastier, just what he *used* as a source for at least the
return, if not the progressively more horrifying material that
follows *that*, none of which is in Apollonius.
> This quote includes everything I omitted from the Author's Note in my
> previous post. After much editing the quote is no longer necessary to
> this post, but since I've already typed it...:
Unfortunately, you're right, it's not "necessary" at least in the
sense that he doesn't tell us his source for the return. But I
was pretty surprised to see
> Calais and Zetes became the Boxalls (though here I mined Propertius
> as well);
which shows I've been away from this literature way too long for
what I say not to be taken with grains of salt, sigh. On a quick
leaf-through I don't see Propertius doing much narrative, but do
see that he's quite a poet; something to look forward to this
year or next...
Thanks again on the Orphic <Argonautica>.
Joe Bernstein
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 21:49:32 +0000 (UTC), Joe Bernstein
> <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
> >In article <tcml92pbgm1m8l1mp...@4ax.com>,
> >Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
> >> Who wrote the story about Helen & Menelaus in Egypt? And how it was a
> >> fake Helen who went to Troy? Rider Haggard?
> >Um, I dunno, but NB that that isn't some kind of strange modern twist.
> >Euripides did a play on that basis, and it wasn't original to him
> >either. (Think, look ... "According to Plato in the <Phaedros>,
> >when Stesichoros was blinded for having slandered Helen, he, unlike
> >Homer who was blinded for the same sin, wrote a <Palinode>, a
> >recantation, and immediately recovered his sight."
> And I probably read the Plato in college, too. Shows how much stuck.
> Didn't get that Euripides, though.
It's his <Helen>, which is one of several plays he did with happy
endings, among the things that outraged his contemporaries since he
was supposed to be writing tragedies. I don't remember liking it as
I did his <Alcestis> nor disliking it as I did his <Ion>; since I
mostly remember liking Euripides, this is not a good sign, but also
not a bad one.
Anyway, the Plato turns out to read as follows, with no Egypt, in
the translation of R. Hackforth:
(Socrates fears, rhetorically, that he has upset the goddess of love
by the advice he's given someone)
"And so, my friend, I have to purify myself. Now for such as offend
in speaking of gods and heroes there is an ancient mode of purification,
which was known to Stesichorus, though not to Homer. When Stesichorus
lost the sight of his eyes because of his defamation of Helen, he was
not, like Homer, at a loss to know why. As a true artist he
understood the reason, and promptly wrote the lines:
False, false the tale.
Thou never didst sail in the well-decked ships
Nor come to the towers of Troy.
And after finishing the composition of his so-called palinode he
straightway recovered his sight."
<Phaedrus> 243a-b.
Note that here, unlike the <Republic>'s more famous passage, Plato
distinguishes between poets on quasi-moral grounds. (Though he
sort of spoils it by immediately having Socrates say he's smarter'n
either of them because he'll do his palinode before being afflicted.
Long term, one could probably say "Oops!" about that...)
There's also quite a lot about Helen in Egypt in Herodotus's Egypt,
which I was looking at today for unrelated reasons, but Herodotus
doesn't actually seem to buy, and I *think* doesn't even mention,
the version Euripides has and Stesichorus appears to, according
to which the "Helen" at Troy was some sort of simulacrum while
the real Helen had a ten-year vacation in Egypt. What Herodotus
focuses on is a remark in the <Odyssey> that contradicts a remark
in the <Iliad> - the voyage to Troy either had a stop in Egypt
or was non-stop - which discrepancy I'll bet is what inspired this
whole line of talk in the first place.
> What I was remembering was a paperback book with a yellowish cover I
> read at *least* twenty years ago. Title might have had "Desire" in
> it. It was a whole novel, and other than the subject I remember
> almost nothing about it. The style of the writing might have been
> more on the Victorian end, than modern, which is where I came up with
> Haggard.
Well, if you want to fault your memory feel free, but you *may* have
come up with Haggard because it *was* Haggard.
<The World's Desire>. H. Rider Haggard and Andrew Lang. 1890.
The paragraph about this in Lang's <Encyclopedia of Fantasy> entry
is tempting me to quote it but I'm not sure John Clute would be OK
with that - it's really good writing and the last paragraph in the
entry - so I'll simply suggest to all and sundry that they go and
read it in the book instead.
[Stesichorus]
> Learned from his predecessor's fate, I guess, to recant.
As the quote above shows, yep, and that's why we ever heard of it.
> >This thread has focused on books that *use* mythic materials,
> >although Llewellyn tends to do actual *retellings* of mythic
> >or historical materials, which is a much narrower category.
> >In the "ancient" field, I can think offhand of <Till We Have
> >Faces>, already mentioned, and a trilogy by Patrick Adkins
> >that I haven't read but gather is actual retelling. But I'm
> >sure there's more.
> I can think of some kids books that deal with Troy or Medea, but not
> much in the adult line retelling ancient Greek stuff. Just one: _Whom
> the Gods Would Destroy_ by Powers does tackle the Illiad. And that
> you'd have to get used or from the library.
? Which Powers? Surely not Tim...
> Someone's mentioned Frost's retelling of the Tain Bo Cuilagne (sp?),
> which reminds me, Jo Walton's _Prize in the Game_ also retells it.
Yeah, as an episode in the story as I recall.
Joe Bernstein
<bo...@radix.net> wrote:
> In article <e7hnlc$lv7$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
> >I ~recently read but now can't remember title/author of a book
> >which tried *really, really hard* to work on a very sophisticated
> >sort of retelling level with various Sumerian myths, notably
> >the one about the descent of Ishtar to the nether world, also
> >some of the Gilgamesh stories. I didn't think the novel worked
> >in the end but it was certainly compelling reading to me, as
> >someone who'd read most of the source material; I was very
> >impressed with the author's ability to turn it into a coherent
> >science fiction (yes, seriously) novel. I'm positive I posted
> >about it after reading it, so a search on my posts (this address)
> >with Ishtar and Gilgamesh as search terms has a fair chance of
> >turning up the info.
> Robert Silverberg's take on Gilgamesh?
Nope, I finally dug through my archive and it's Anne Harris's
<Inventing Memory>. Which, come to think, I should really look
for a copy of.
All I've read of Silverberg's massive quasi-historical output
is the ?novella "Enter One Soldier. After a while, Enter Another"
or whatever it's called, which I read in its magazine appearance.
> I liked it when I first read it. Since then I've learned more
> about the original mythology, and have a scholarly translation
> of the original material on my nightstand now.
Huh. So happens I have a three-year-old new *edition* of the
Akkadian <Gilgamesh> sitting about two feet from me right now;
this turns out to be one of several Akkadian stories that have
had new editions in recent years, which is kinda cheering, since
assyriologists are much given to holding conferences devoted to
figuring out why their field is dying. (A book published last year
by one Kenton Sparks, I forget the title right now, as a guide for
biblical scholars to Near Eastern literature, is my source for the
new editions info. It's not exhaustive, but does cover more
stories of various sorts than I found when I started researching
the topic.)
Anyway, I'm curious which translation. Andrew George has done
one for someplace like Penguin, and is also the editor of the
edition (which includes a more literal translation); I myself
own Stephanie Dalley's, but not any of the stand-alone versions.
(I don't read Akkadian. Borrowed the edition partly for the
translation, which was rendered kinda pointless when I came
across Dalley's second edition used a week later, but mostly
for the long discussion of the epic's evolution, which I'll have
to read and figure out how much to trust if it differs much from
Jeffrey Tigay's 1980s treatment, which my draft chapter cites.)
I heard long long ago a rumor (but from a reliable source) that
the Sippar library contained <Gilgamesh> complete, among other
wonders. Well, if so, it ain't in the new edition, nor is there
anything *remotely* so optimistic in what I find online about
Sippar. (Though at least that library seems to have survived
the Iraq fighting so far, knock on wood.) Sigh.
> In, perhaps, related vein, I have a very nice popular scholarly oriented
> book on the moundbuilders (_The Mound Builders_) by Robert Silverberg.
> (copyright 1970 for the original writing) I'm not enough of a writing
> stylist observer to be sure that it's the same writer. And it's
> not an uncommon name*. Anyone know if it is the same Silverberg?
No, but the <Encyclopedia of Science Fiction> says he's written over
sixty non-fiction books (without listing them, though it cites
bibliographies you could probably check), and his essays from
<Asimov's> suggest to me a longstanding interest in archaeology, so
it's not a bad fit.
But, y'know, that doesn't *prove* anything. The Joel Rosenberg
who writes pro-Jewish fantasies is not the Joel Rosenberg who was
involved in the book <Rabbinic Fantasies>, go figure, and the
John Crowley who studies 19th century supernatural fiction is
*certainly* not the John Crowley who *writes* 19th century
supernatural fiction, so to speak.
David Goldfarb
Rather more than that -- it's basically the entire latter part of
the book, and most of what goes before works to set it up.
--
David Goldfarb |
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | [This space intentionally left blank.]
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |
David Tate
regarding various ancient writers, Joe Bernstein wrote:
> <The World's Desire>. H. Rider Haggard and Andrew Lang. 1890.
>
> The paragraph about this in Lang's <Encyclopedia of Fantasy> entry
> is tempting me to quote it but I'm not sure John Clute would be OK
> with that - it's really good writing and the last paragraph in the
> entry - so I'll simply suggest to all and sundry that they go and
> read it in the book instead.
I'm curious -- given the nature and purpose of the discussion you are
currently engaging in with Elaine, wouldn't quoting that paragraph (and
nothing else) count as "fair use" (or "fair dealing" in the UK) under
the various copyright laws? If not, then what does?
Private, non-profit, scholarly/critical, one-time, less than 5% of the
entire chapter (?), likely to have no negative (and potentially
positive) influence on sales of the original ... that seems to meet all
of the usual tests as I understand them.
David Tate
lclough
In this past Sunday's NYTimes Book Review, there is a short
review of a children's book about Lugalbanda. Yes, Gilgamesh's dad.
Brenda
Elaine Thompson
<j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>In article <uidp929v7410fk7fa...@4ax.com>,
>Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
>
snip a bunch about Euripedes and Plato. I liked the Euripedes I read
in college much more than the Plato. And now I bounce off Plato
completely, as I discovered recently when for some reason I was trying
to find a passage in one of the Dialogues.
>There's also quite a lot about Helen in Egypt in Herodotus's Egypt,
>which I was looking at today for unrelated reasons, but Herodotus
>doesn't actually seem to buy, and I *think* doesn't even mention,
>the version Euripides has and Stesichorus appears to, according
>to which the "Helen" at Troy was some sort of simulacrum while
>the real Helen had a ten-year vacation in Egypt. What Herodotus
>focuses on is a remark in the <Odyssey> that contradicts a remark
>in the <Iliad> - the voyage to Troy either had a stop in Egypt
>or was non-stop - which discrepancy I'll bet is what inspired this
>whole line of talk in the first place.
Likely.
And why don't more writers mine Herodotus for inspiration instead of
going to Justinian and Theodora aand King Arthur, hmmm? He's got all
sorts of story seeds.
>
>> What I was remembering was a paperback book with a yellowish cover I
>> read at *least* twenty years ago. Title might have had "Desire" in
>> it. It was a whole novel, and other than the subject I remember
>> almost nothing about it. The style of the writing might have been
>> more on the Victorian end, than modern, which is where I came up with
>> Haggard.
>
>Well, if you want to fault your memory feel free, but you *may* have
>come up with Haggard because it *was* Haggard.
Aha! I didn't feel like googling around for a reference. Thank you.
>
><The World's Desire>. H. Rider Haggard and Andrew Lang. 1890.
>
>> I can think of some kids books that deal with Troy or Medea, but not
>> much in the adult line retelling ancient Greek stuff. Just one: _Whom
>> the Gods Would Destroy_ by Powers does tackle the Illiad. And that
>> you'd have to get used or from the library.
>
>? Which Powers? Surely not Tim...
Richard I think. <visits thewebsite of the library wherefrom I
checked the book out lo these many years ago. > Ooops. Richard
PoweLL, not Powers. Next time I'm there I should check it out again.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Robert Grumbine
Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>In article <129p6fv...@corp.supernews.com>, Robert Grumbine
><bo...@radix.net> wrote:
>
>> In article <e7hnlc$lv7$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>> Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>
>> Robert Silverberg's take on Gilgamesh?
>
>Nope, I finally dug through my archive and it's Anne Harris's
><Inventing Memory>. Which, come to think, I should really look
>for a copy of.
>
>All I've read of Silverberg's massive quasi-historical output
>is the ?novella "Enter One Soldier. After a while, Enter Another"
>or whatever it's called, which I read in its magazine appearance.
Worth a try on Silverberg's Gilgamesh, then.
>> I liked it when I first read it. Since then I've learned more
>> about the original mythology, and have a scholarly translation
>> of the original material on my nightstand now.
>
>Huh. So happens I have a three-year-old new *edition* of the
>Akkadian <Gilgamesh> sitting about two feet from me right now;
>this turns out to be one of several Akkadian stories that have
>had new editions in recent years, which is kinda cheering, since
>assyriologists are much given to holding conferences devoted to
>figuring out why their field is dying. (A book published last year
>by one Kenton Sparks, I forget the title right now, as a guide for
>biblical scholars to Near Eastern literature, is my source for the
>new editions info. It's not exhaustive, but does cover more
>stories of various sorts than I found when I started researching
>the topic.)
>
>Anyway, I'm curious which translation. Andrew George has done
>one for someplace like Penguin, and is also the editor of the
>edition (which includes a more literal translation); I myself
>own Stephanie Dalley's, but not any of the stand-alone versions.
Mine is an old penguin -- N. K. Sandars is the translator,
copyright 1960. The introduction is almost as long as the
epic (about 60 pages each).
>(I don't read Akkadian. Borrowed the edition partly for the
>translation, which was rendered kinda pointless when I came
>across Dalley's second edition used a week later, but mostly
>for the long discussion of the epic's evolution, which I'll have
>to read and figure out how much to trust if it differs much from
>Jeffrey Tigay's 1980s treatment, which my draft chapter cites.)
>
>I heard long long ago a rumor (but from a reliable source) that
>the Sippar library contained <Gilgamesh> complete, among other
>wonders. Well, if so, it ain't in the new edition, nor is there
>anything *remotely* so optimistic in what I find online about
>Sippar. (Though at least that library seems to have survived
>the Iraq fighting so far, knock on wood.) Sigh.
Something to look forward to, if not with bated breath.
>> In, perhaps, related vein, I have a very nice popular scholarly oriented
>> book on the moundbuilders (_The Mound Builders_) by Robert Silverberg.
>> (copyright 1970 for the original writing) I'm not enough of a writing
>> stylist observer to be sure that it's the same writer. And it's
>> not an uncommon name*. Anyone know if it is the same Silverberg?
>
>No, but the <Encyclopedia of Science Fiction> says he's written over
>sixty non-fiction books (without listing them, though it cites
>bibliographies you could probably check), and his essays from
><Asimov's> suggest to me a longstanding interest in archaeology, so
>it's not a bad fit.
That's what raised the question. As you say, though:
>But, y'know, that doesn't *prove* anything. The Joel Rosenberg
>who writes pro-Jewish fantasies is not the Joel Rosenberg who was
>involved in the book <Rabbinic Fantasies>, go figure, and the
>John Crowley who studies 19th century supernatural fiction is
>*certainly* not the John Crowley who *writes* 19th century
>supernatural fiction, so to speak.
... and my own experiences with being mistaken for others of
the same or same enough name.
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
Joe Bernstein
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
> snip a bunch about Euripedes and Plato. I liked the Euripedes I read
> in college much more than the Plato. And now I bounce off Plato
> completely, as I discovered recently when for some reason I was trying
> to find a passage in one of the Dialogues.
Yeah, I had the same reaction to the <Phaedrus> bits I read. It's
*amazing* how irritating that business of having characters exist
to be Socrates cheerleaders still is, chez me anyway.
This is disturbing because Plato is pretty much obligatory reading
for my history of fantasy, and not terribly far off either. I got
to skip him while doing my work for the <Encyclopedia> because
someone else was doing an entry (which ended up dropped by mistake,
so it's on the errata website); the other two Major Ancient Fantasy
Authors I've not read for the same reason are Apuleius (though I
tried, a year or so ago) and Lucian (beyond what I read as a kid).
So uck. Lots of Plato to not look forward to. ("But why?" I hear
you cry. Um, because of Atlantis and the myth of the cave, just to
start with; but see, those are the ones I *know* about...)
> And why don't more writers mine Herodotus for inspiration instead of
> going to Justinian and Theodora aand King Arthur, hmmm? He's got all
> sorts of story seeds.
Well, Gillian Bradshaw did, anyway, in her children's book <Beyond
the North Wind>. Gore Vidal did too, sorta, in <Creation>. But
yeah, it's an underused gold mine.
Hot diggity dog, two Gillian Bradshaw references in one day! Ooh,
this must be going to be a *good* day...
And thanks for the correction re Powell.
William December Starr
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> said:
> Charles Saunders' Imaro series may qualify. Not sure how much the
> various supernaturalish events are based on real African myths,
> but most of the tribes/societies that Imaro encounters are
> mythicized versions of historical African tribes/societies.
>
> (Incidentally, Saunders has revised the first "Imaro" novel and
> the revised novel has been released in trade paperback form.)
Do you happen to know (roughly) how different the new version is?
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Michael Ikeda
@panix1.panix.com:
I haven't read the revised version yet. I did skim parts of
Saunder's introduction to the new version. From what I recall, the
biggest changes in Book 1 are that the "Giant-Kings" chapter has been
removed, a new chapter involving something called the "Afua" was
added, and the "City of Madness" chapter was moved to the beginning
of the second book.
(The removal of the "Giant-Kings" chapter, of course, means other
changes. For one thing Imaro and Tanisha originally met in that
chapter, so the circumstances of their meeting changes in the new
version.)