Justice systems in SF and Fantasy
Mark Reichert
handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
One example that pops to mind is Aral's first attempt to attend to the
letter of the anti-dueling law, which didn't work out so well. I was
recently reminded that was not an example of "People before
principles".
I think Discworld has had some rather good and bad examples.
Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's
dream, completely privatized?[1]
[1] I thought of him when I saw this last night:
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/colbert-report-word-green-mile
No doubt Mr. Spoor will say this is the entire reason for my post,
perhaps no without some justification, but I think it's a good thread
subject anyway.
djinn
> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is
> handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
>
> One example that pops to mind is Aral's first attempt to attend to the
> letter of the anti-dueling law, which didn't work out so well. I was
> recently reminded that was not an example of "People before
> principles".
>
> I think Discworld has had some rather good and bad examples.
>
> Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's
> dream, completely privatized?[1]
>
Wayne Throop
:: dream, completely privatized?[1]
: For some reason, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress comes to mind...
Hm. How about "And Then There Were None"?
Or, perhaps "The Ungoverned".
:: Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is
:: handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
Maybe "The Disposessed". Maybe "Coventry". Or that sequel to Coventry,
"Methuselah's Children". Which then reminds me of the "Methuselas"
in "Altered Carbon", which has something to do with how well or badly
justice is dispensed therein. Or, say, "Oath of Fealty". And...
well, free association goes on and on from there.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Butch Malahide
> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is
> handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates:
_Alice in Wonderland_ by Lewis Carroll
"The Devil and Daniel Webster" by Stephen Vincent Benet
_The Unholy City_ by Charles G. Finney
"The Trial of Adam Link, Robot" by Eando Binder
"Arena" by Fredric Brown
"Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein
_Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ by Robert A. Heinlein
_The E.S.P. Worm_ by Piers Anthony and Robert E. Margroff
Stephen Allcroft
>
> Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's
> dream, completely privatized?[1]
>
Ken MacLeod has market-competitive legal systems in a few of his
books. The Sky Road springs to mind.
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk
Eric Frank Russell - "The Witness"
--
"McNear had responded to the inexplicable as people often do: he had
ignored its existance. An excellent way to maintain sanity."
- "Practice" by Verge Foray
<http://variety-sf.blogspot.com/2009/10/howard-l-myers-practice-as-by-verge.html>
Juho Julkunen
> Butch Malahide wrote:
> > On Nov 4, 9:29 pm, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is
> >> handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
> >
> > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates:
> >
> > _Alice in Wonderland_ by Lewis Carroll
> > "The Devil and Daniel Webster" by Stephen Vincent Benet
> > _The Unholy City_ by Charles G. Finney
> > "The Trial of Adam Link, Robot" by Eando Binder
> > "Arena" by Fredric Brown
> > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein
That's "Jerry was a Man", right?
> > _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ by Robert A. Heinlein
> > _The E.S.P. Worm_ by Piers Anthony and Robert E. Margroff
>
> Eric Frank Russell - "The Witness"
_The Dosadi Experiment_ and "The Tactful Saboteur" by Frank Herbert.
--
Juho Julkunen
Anthony Nance
_Monument_ by Lloyd Biggle, Jr.
Will in New Haven
It fits, but only to some extent. The Authorities don't care much but
they _do_ have the high justice and the low justice. The privatized
justice carried out without their knowledge or consent is really a
stop-gap measure because the Authorities don't get involved. Some
Loonies praise the virtues of their system but they probably would
never have resorted to it if the circumstances didn't mandate.
--
Will in New Haven
rochrist
How about RAH's Star Beast?
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is
> handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
>
The Demolished Man, by Alfred Bester, or even The Stars My Destination
by the same author.
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Michael Stemper
>In article <hcuglj$c4b$1...@aioe.org>, (tkma...@yahoo.co.uk) says...
>> Butch Malahide wrote:
>> > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates:
Not so famous, but still of interest:
"Kangaroo Court", by Virginia Kids
"The Law-Twister Shorty", by Gordon R. Dickson
>_The Dosadi Experiment_ and "The Tactful Saboteur" by Frank Herbert.
Is the latter a story in which BuSab is shown doing some actual
sabotage?
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
The name of the story is "A Sound of Thunder".
It was written by Ray Bradbury. You're welcome.
Default User
> Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's
> dream, completely privatized?[1]
Vernor Vinge's "The Ungoverned". They didn't really go that much into
justice, more protection.
Brian
--
Day 276 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project
Butch Malahide
> In article <hcuglj$c4...@aioe.org>, (tkmail...@yahoo.co.uk) says...
>
> > Butch Malahide wrote:
> > > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates:
>
> > > _Alice in Wonderland_ by Lewis Carroll
> > > "The Devil and Daniel Webster" by Stephen Vincent Benet
> > > _The Unholy City_ by Charles G. Finney
> > > "The Trial of Adam Link, Robot" by Eando Binder
> > > "Arena" by Fredric Brown
> > > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein
>
> That's "Jerry was a Man", right?
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/se.cgi
It was "is" in the original magazine publication, but apparently it's
been "was" ever since.
Michael Stemper
>On Nov 5, 8:09=A0am, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> In article <hcuglj$c4...@aioe.org>, =A0(tkmail...@yahoo.co.uk) says...
>> > Butch Malahide wrote:
>> > > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates=
>> > > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein
>>
>> That's "Jerry was a Man", right?
>
>http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/se.cgi
>
>It was "is" in the original magazine publication, but apparently it's
>been "was" ever since.
So, it was "is", but it is "was"?
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about architecture" - Thelonious Monk
Juho Julkunen
(mste...@walkabout.empros.com) says...
> In article <MPG.255d08f66...@news.kolumbus.fi>, Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >In article <hcuglj$c4b$1...@aioe.org>, (tkma...@yahoo.co.uk) says...
> >> Butch Malahide wrote:
>
> >> > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates:
>
> Not so famous, but still of interest:
>
> "Kangaroo Court", by Virginia Kids
> "The Law-Twister Shorty", by Gordon R. Dickson
>
> >_The Dosadi Experiment_ and "The Tactful Saboteur" by Frank Herbert.
>
> Is the latter a story in which BuSab is shown doing some actual
> sabotage?
There's sabotage, and BuSab is involved.
There's some in "A Matter of Traces".
--
Juho Julkunen
David DeLaney
>Butch Malahide <fred....@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Nov 5, 8:09=A0am, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Butch Malahide wrote:
>>> > > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates=
>>> > > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein
>>>
>>> That's "Jerry was a Man", right?
>>
>>http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/se.cgi
>>
>>It was "is" in the original magazine publication, but apparently it's
>>been "was" ever since.
>
>So, it was "is", but it is "was"?
And of course is-not is not not-is.
Dave "depending on what the meaning of 'man' is/was" DeLaney
--
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It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
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Ddfr
> :: Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's
> :: dream, completely privatized?[1]
>
> : For some reason, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress comes to mind...
>
> Hm. How about "And Then There Were None"?
> Or, perhaps "The Ungoverned".
Interesting list.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress was one of the things that inspired my
ideas on the subject. And Vinge, in the afterward to "The Ungoverned,"
explicitly credits my Machinery of Freedom as his source.
Which is only fair, since I stole some of my ideas about online
anonymity from him.
Mark Reichert
Came to my mind on the way home as well.
Manny sitting judge for Stu being the primary example.
Only thing: reputation actually mattered on pre-Revolution Luna. A
bad judge wouldn't have cases brought to him. Today, he'd just hire a
public relations flak, perhaps Burson-Marsteller.
Mark Reichert
"Galley Slave" by Isaac Asimov.
There's also a trial in "The Psychohistorians" at the front of "First
Foundation".
Mark Reichert
wrote:
How does that work, both the mechanics and the effectiveness?
Mark Reichert
> Mark Reichert wrote:
> > Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's
> > dream, completely privatized?[1]
>
> Vernor Vinge's "The Ungoverned". They didn't really go that much into
> justice, more protection.
Which what you have to do without some sort of government.
I think Jared Diamond is right in suggesting that Nation/States
started from a desire to settle disputes among very large dense groups
of people without resorting to warfare.
It was not forced upon people by thuggish con men. Those are just the
sort that will take over if the governed stop paying attention.
Mark Reichert
> :: Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's
> :: dream, completely privatized?[1]
>
> : For some reason, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress comes to mind...
>
> Hm. How about "And Then There Were None"?
> Or, perhaps "The Ungoverned".
>
> :: Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is
> :: handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
>
> Maybe "The Disposessed". Maybe "Coventry". Or that sequel to Coventry,
> "Methuselah's Children". Which then reminds me of the "Methuselas"
> in "Altered Carbon", which has something to do with how well or badly
> justice is dispensed therein. Or, say, "Oath of Fealty". And...
I forget about how justice was handed out in Todos Santos. The diving
board made a bigger impression.<g>
Wayne Throop
: I forget about how justice was handed out in Todos Santos. The diving
: board made a bigger impression.<g>
I had in mind how they handled the terorist incident, along with
the fact that they took some pains to put themselves outside the
juristiction of the surrounding area, trading economic power for
various special dispensations, and the effects this had on how safe
people were and how safe they actually were. Etc etc.
It also occurs to me that issues of the admistration of justice are
central to the Codex Alera series. One might almost say justce was
privatised, via the Juris Macto (may the crows feast on the unjust).
Sadly, only citizens have access to the Juris Macto, and most of the
population aren't citizens. Still, it's availability has a mojor
impact on several plot points. Plus, of course the way Gaius Sextus
is portrayed, and the exchange where Antilus Raucus outlines to Isana
both why Sextus is "a fearsome old cat", plus the reasons why that's
not adequate in a leader.
Jeff Stehman
> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is
> handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
The justice system in Simon R Green's Hawk & Fisher series is kind of a
caricature of the US justice system. Or perhaps more accurately, it
resembles the justice system in many cop movies. Impenetrable
bureaucracy, impossible to follow paper trails, criminals walking almost
as soon as they're taken in, and the good-guy cops playing fast and
loose with the law to get around the system.
Over the course of Glen Cook's Garrett series, the justice system goes
from a very corrupt one in which money call the shots to a frightening
one in which fanatical secret police rule with a deadly hand.
It's been too long since I read any Stainless Steel Rat, but I'm sure
that justice system is portrayed in an entertaining fashion.
--Jeff Stehman
Michael Stemper
>On Nov 5, 5:11=A0am, Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates:
>"Galley Slave" by Isaac Asimov.
In a similar vein, there's "The Cyber and Justice Holmes", by Frank Riley.
>There's also a trial in "The Psychohistorians" at the front of "First
>Foundation".
Is that a typo, or has _Foundatio_ really been retitled?
--
Michael F. Stemper
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Please read it before posting.
Default User
> On Nov 5, 1:28�pm, "Default User" <defaultuse...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Mark Reichert wrote:
> > > Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David
> > > Friedman's dream, completely privatized?[1]
> >
> > Vernor Vinge's "The Ungoverned". They didn't really go that much
> > into justice, more protection.
>
> Which what you have to do without some sort of government.
I still think the model for this sort of thing is fundamentally flawed.
Something like what you see in "The Ungovered" just wouldn't last very
much past the first serious dispute in a community. Most police type
actions happen after the fact. If there's no adjudication process that
anyone's required to follow, then what good are the services? They
don't stay in your house to protect it while you're gone, or walk with
you to keep you safe on the street. You might as well save money and
spend it on good weapons and security features for the house.
Brian
--
Day 277 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project
Michael Stemper
>In article <382063b2-1d35-41e9...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Mark Reichert <Mark_R...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>There's also a trial in "The Psychohistorians" at the front of "First
>>Foundation".
>
>Is that a typo, or has _Foundatio_ really been retitled?
Naturally, when I ask about a potential typo, I have one of my own.
This was supposed to read "_Foundation_".
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
A bad day sailing is better than a good day at the office.
Michael Stemper
That's nice to know, and maybe I'll encounter one of these some day. I
was quite frustrated with the way that BuSab was dangled in front of the
reader, but not shown doing its thing, in _Whipping Star_ and _The Dosadi
Experiment_.
I thought that it was a cool concept and wished that Herbert had done
something with it.
--
Michael F. Stemper
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David Johnston
(Michael Stemper) wrote:
>In article <hd1muq$77v$3...@news.eternal-september.org>, mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>>In article <382063b2-1d35-41e9...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Mark Reichert <Mark_R...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>>There's also a trial in "The Psychohistorians" at the front of "First
>>>Foundation".
>>
>>Is that a typo, or has _Foundatio_ really been retitled?
>
>Naturally, when I ask about a potential typo, I have one of my own.
>This was supposed to read "_Foundation_".
Until the movie comes out.
Kay Shapero
the list
> >
> > > Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's
> > > dream, completely privatized?[1]
iirc L. Neil Smith's _The Probability Broach*_ worked that way.
* a title that always makes me think of a small pin-on time machine.
--
Kay Shapero
address munged, email kay at following domain
http://www.kayshapero.net
Cece
> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is
> handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
>
> letter of the anti-dueling law, which didn't work out so well. I was
> recently reminded that was not an example of "People before
> principles".
>
> I think Discworld has had some rather good and bad examples.
>
> dream, completely privatized?[1]
>
>
> http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/colbert-report-word-green...
>
> No doubt Mr. Spoor will say this is the entire reason for my post,
> perhaps no without some justification, but I think it's a good thread
> subject anyway.
A Planet for Texans / Lone Star Planet, by Piper)
Trilogy: Circuit, Circuit Breaker, Final Circuit, by Melinda M.
Snodgrass.
What about the trials Pendarvis judges in the Fuzzy books?
Mark Reichert
wrote:
> In article <hd1muq$77...@news.eternal-september.org>, mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>
> >In article <382063b2-1d35-41e9-bd30-595ed4d5f...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>There's also a trial in "The Psychohistorians" at the front of "First
> >>Foundation".
>
> >Is that a typo, or has _Foundatio_ really been retitled?
>
> Naturally, when I ask about a potential typo, I have one of my own.
> This was supposed to read "_Foundation_".
Actually, you got it right. I was operating from memory and I haven't
read the books in awhile.
Mark Reichert
Which is what I've pointed out to guns, guns, guns people.
Much as I liked the wall of guns in Tremors, keeping that amount of
loaded guns on a wall is overkill and dangerous. They'd have been
better off putting steel reinforcement in their foundation.
Beefed up active and passive security also has the benefit of working
when you aren't there to use your guns. Might prevent one of the most
frequent fates of guns..being stolen.
Will in New Haven
Remember, the clients of the narrator/protagonists have signed "no
right to bear arms" agreements with his company. In that environment I
think that means that the security providers have to keep someone
around your property pretty much all the time. Certainly, they would
have to have extremely frequent patrols. I would no more hire them and
give up my RTKBA than I would think the Branford and New Haven police
departments provide anything but some passive protection and
deterrence.
--
Will in New Haven
Jim Lovejoy
news:hcump6$ju1$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu:
> Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> In article <hcuglj$c4b$1...@aioe.org>, (tkma...@yahoo.co.uk) says...
>>> Butch Malahide wrote:
>>> > On Nov 4, 9:29 pm, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice
>>> >> is handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
>>> >
>>> > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some
>>> > candidates:
>>> >
>>> > _Alice in Wonderland_ by Lewis Carroll
>>> > "The Devil and Daniel Webster" by Stephen Vincent Benet
>>> > _The Unholy City_ by Charles G. Finney
>>> > "The Trial of Adam Link, Robot" by Eando Binder
>>> > "Arena" by Fredric Brown
>>> > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein
>>
>> That's "Jerry was a Man", right?
>>
>>> > _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ by Robert A. Heinlein
>>> > _The E.S.P. Worm_ by Piers Anthony and Robert E. Margroff
>>>
>>> Eric Frank Russell - "The Witness"
>>
>> _The Dosadi Experiment_ and "The Tactful Saboteur" by Frank Herbert.
>
> _Monument_ by Lloyd Biggle, Jr.
_Gladiator at Law_ by Pohl and Kornbluth
Dan Clore
> On Nov 4, 9:29 pm, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is
>> handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
>
> What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some
> candidates:
>
> _Alice in Wonderland_ by Lewis Carroll "The Devil and Daniel Webster"
> by Stephen Vincent Benet _The Unholy City_ by Charles G. Finney "The
> Trial of Adam Link, Robot" by Eando Binder "Arena" by Fredric Brown
> by Robert A. Heinlein _The E.S.P. Worm_ by Piers Anthony and Robert
> E. Margroff
Taking a broad definition of "SF":
Franz Kafka, _The Trial_ (duh)
William Burroughs, _Nova Express_
James Joyce, _Ulysses_ (hallucinated)
And I would add:
Pink Floyd, _The Wall_ (or _Pink Floyd: The Wall_, if you prefer the
movie version)
--
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