Re: Starving people refuse to eat food aid
William December Starr
"Charles Wm. Dimmick" <cdim...@snet.net> said:
>> or "the roof of the world..."
>
> OK. That one isn't too hard.
That would have been the hardest for me, because it's so nonsensical.
-- wds
Dorothy J Heydt
It's a standard phrase, though, apparently a translation of
_Bam-i Dunya_, "a native expression, presumably Wakhi," says the
Wikipedia article. It appears to have appeared first in English
as the title of T. E. Gordon's travelogue dated 1838.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
William December Starr
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>>>> or "the roof of the world..."
>>>
>>> OK. That one isn't too hard.
>>
>> That would have been the hardest for me, because it's so nonsensical.
>
> It's a standard phrase, though, apparently a translation of
> _Bam-i Dunya_, "a native expression, presumably Wakhi," says the
> Wikipedia article. It appears to have appeared first in English
> as the title of T. E. Gordon's travelogue dated 1838.
Were the natives on drugs, or was it just a really bad translation?
-- wds
Dorothy J Heydt
Heck, I don't know. It is the highest inhabited part of the
Himalayas, though. Maybe they're all suffering from a spot of
anoxia?
R H Draney
>
>In article <hgmvnd$c2c$1...@panix1.panix.com>,
>William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In article <KuzIx...@kithrup.com>,
>>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>>
>>>>>> or "the roof of the world..."
>>>>>
>>>>> OK. That one isn't too hard.
>>>>
>>>> That would have been the hardest for me, because it's so nonsensical.
>>>
>>> It's a standard phrase, though, apparently a translation of
>>> _Bam-i Dunya_, "a native expression, presumably Wakhi," says the
>>> Wikipedia article. It appears to have appeared first in English
>>> as the title of T. E. Gordon's travelogue dated 1838.
>>
>>Were the natives on drugs, or was it just a really bad translation?
>
>Heck, I don't know. It is the highest inhabited part of the
>Himalayas, though. Maybe they're all suffering from a spot of
>anoxia?
Maybe they were just feeling a little Wakhi....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
John F. Eldredge
It seems like a fairly obvious metaphor to me. Just as the highest part
of a building is the roof, the highest part of the world would be
referred to as its roof.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Bill Snyder
Starr) wrote:
You'd prefer "Killer of Hindus?"
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> Dorothy J Heydt filted:
>> In article <hgmvnd$c2c$1...@panix1.panix.com>,
>> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> In article <KuzIx...@kithrup.com>,
>>> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>>>
>>>>>>> or "the roof of the world..."
>>>>>> OK. That one isn't too hard.
>>>>> That would have been the hardest for me, because it's so nonsensical.
>>>> It's a standard phrase, though, apparently a translation of
>>>> _Bam-i Dunya_, "a native expression, presumably Wakhi," says the
>>>> Wikipedia article. It appears to have appeared first in English
>>>> as the title of T. E. Gordon's travelogue dated 1838.
>>> Were the natives on drugs, or was it just a really bad translation?
>> Heck, I don't know. It is the highest inhabited part of the
>> Himalayas, though. Maybe they're all suffering from a spot of
>> anoxia?
>
> Maybe they were just feeling a little Wakhi....r
>
>
Hatunen
<jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 00:05:49 -0500, William December Starr wrote:
>
>> In article <KuzIx...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>> Heydt) said:
>>
>>>>>> or "the roof of the world..."
>>>>>
>>>>> OK. That one isn't too hard.
>>>>
>>>> That would have been the hardest for me, because it's so nonsensical.
>>>
>>> It's a standard phrase, though, apparently a translation of _Bam-i
>>> Dunya_, "a native expression, presumably Wakhi," says the Wikipedia
>>> article. It appears to have appeared first in English as the title of
>>> T. E. Gordon's travelogue dated 1838.
>>
>> Were the natives on drugs, or was it just a really bad translation?
>>
>> -- wds
>
>It seems like a fairly obvious metaphor to me. Just as the highest part
>of a building is the roof, the highest part of the world would be
>referred to as its roof.
I've hear the phrase most of my altogether too long life.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Keith F. Lynch
> part of a building is the roof, the highest part of the world would
> be referred to as its roof.
Maybe there's a secret control room hidden underneath, like on Niven's
Ringworld.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Keith F. Lynch
Not as bad as "abominable snowman," from the same part of the world,
though apparently not the same language.
cryptoguy
> John F. Eldredge <j...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>
> > It seems like a fairly obvious metaphor to me. Just as the highest
> > part of a building is the roof, the highest part of the world would
> > be referred to as its roof.
>
> Maybe there's a secret control room hidden underneath, like on Niven's
> Ringworld.
Try researching the name 'Shambala', or 'Shambhala'.
pt
William December Starr
"John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com> said:
> It seems like a fairly obvious metaphor to me. Just as the
> highest part of a building is the roof, the highest part of the
> world would be referred to as its roof.
Just as a roof is a moderately flat piece of architecture that
provides coverage for that beneath it, so is a mountain range...
-- wds
Kurt Busiek
So you're arguing that if it doesn't fit precisely, it's a bad
metaphor? That you have to be able to fit it into any comparison
before it's acceptable?
That's not how metaphors usually work. Did I miss a memo?
"What is this 'wine-dark sea' thing? Some wines are light! And seas
generally aren't red, either!"
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
"Michal Dwuznik (Michał Dwużnik)"
Michal
William December Starr
Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> said:
> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>> "John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com> said:
>>
>>> It seems like a fairly obvious metaphor to me. Just as the
>>> highest part of a building is the roof, the highest part of the
>>> world would be referred to as its roof.
>>
>> Just as a roof is a moderately flat piece of architecture that
>> provides coverage for that beneath it, so is a mountain range...
>
> So you're arguing that if it doesn't fit precisely, it's a bad
> metaphor? That you have to be able to fit it into any comparison
> before it's acceptable?
There's metaphor and then there's WTF metaphor. Where the line lies
is necessarily subjective; I see "a mountain range == a roof" as
being way on the WTF side.
> That's not how metaphors usually work. Did I miss a memo?
>
> "What is this 'wine-dark sea' thing? Some wines are light! And
> seas generally aren't red, either!"
Actually, that last bit of sarcasm does sum up my problem with that
line. What _was_ it supposed to mean anyway -- a dark red ocean?
Question: if you can remember, did "wine-dark sea" make sense to you
the very first time you were exposed to it (and if so, what mental
image did you form, and why?), or have you just come to accept it
through repetition and/or subconscious "well, it's a classic therefore
it must be good" reasoning.
-- wds
William December Starr
<"michal[dot]dwuznik[at]cern[dot]ch"@think.a.bit.before.replying> said:
> William December Starr wrote:
>> "John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com> said:
>>
>>> It seems like a fairly obvious metaphor to me. Just as the
>>> highest part of a building is the roof, the highest part of the
>>> world would be referred to as its roof.
>>
>> Just as a roof is a moderately flat piece of architecture that
>> provides coverage for that beneath it, so is a mountain range...
>
> Roof? Flat? Well, in some places the roofs may be flat...
I thought about adding a lot of text about how I meant "a
two-dimensional surface that is not greatly curved through the third
dimension" and not "necessarily perpendicular to local gravity" but
decided ah the hell with it. And yes, some roofs are all rounded
and curvy, but come on already.
-- wds
Wayne Throop
: Question: if you can remember, did "wine-dark sea" make sense to you
: the very first time you were exposed to it (and if so, what mental
: image did you form, and why?),
An intoxicating, opaque, possibly aromatic fluid seen in low light.
The general notion being the ocean as seductive in some sense.
And what's all this I hear about the woods being lovely, dark and deep,
what's up with that? Why all the fuss over some guy who just happens
to be too busy to take a little walk in the forest?
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
John Francis
Come on already yourself. Mosty people, when they hear the term
"flat roof", assume that to mean something planar and horizontal.
That's most evidently not an accurate description of roofs where
many (most?) people live.
Your description doesn't appear to encompass a simple peaked roof,
the archetype for most western dwellings.
Kurt Busiek
> In article <hh1es2$d41$2...@solani.org>,
> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> said:
>
>> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>>> "John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com> said:
>>>
>>>> It seems like a fairly obvious metaphor to me. Just as the
>>>> highest part of a building is the roof, the highest part of the
>>>> world would be referred to as its roof.
>>>
>>> Just as a roof is a moderately flat piece of architecture that
>>> provides coverage for that beneath it, so is a mountain range...
>>
>> So you're arguing that if it doesn't fit precisely, it's a bad
>> metaphor? That you have to be able to fit it into any comparison
>> before it's acceptable?
>
> There's metaphor and then there's WTF metaphor. Where the line lies
> is necessarily subjective; I see "a mountain range == a roof" as
> being way on the WTF side.
It always made sense to me. Climbing around on the Himalayas was like
climbing around on the roof of the world; the highest point you can get
on the structure. Looking at the peak of a mountain and looking at the
peak of a rooftop can be seen as the same kind of thing on wildly
different scales. Roof is a concept that you think of as shelter
first, from the interior, but to others the sense of pointy shape
higher than the rest at least shares that. I wonder if there's
something in the idea that those people who'd build or shingle roofs
see them differently from those who don't ever need to go up on one;
I've done very little roof repair, but I've climbed around on a fair
number of roofs.
If it doesn't make sense to you, I guess there's no way around that,
but it apparently seems pretty natural to a large number of people,
considering how long it's been around (and across numerous cultures and
languages).
>> That's not how metaphors usually work. Did I miss a memo?
>>
>> "What is this 'wine-dark sea' thing? Some wines are light! And
>> seas generally aren't red, either!"
>
> Actually, that last bit of sarcasm does sum up my problem with that
> line. What _was_ it supposed to mean anyway -- a dark red ocean?
I always took it to mean a sea as dark as red wine, not a sea as red as
red wine. That'd be a wine-red sea, surely.
But there are those who've said that under certain conditions those
waters can appear red (when there's the right amount of dust in the
air, or the right kind of lighting), and that this is what he might
have meant. But I always pictured something as dark as wine, not
something the color of wine.
> Question: if you can remember, did "wine-dark sea" make sense to you
> the very first time you were exposed to it (and if so, what mental
> image did you form, and why?), or have you just come to accept it
> through repetition and/or subconscious "well, it's a classic therefore
> it must be good" reasoning.
It made sense to me. Dark water, as dark as a rich red wine (and maybe
one that suggested the texture of wine as well, somehow thicker and
oilier than mere sea water, or a sea that would mess with one's
senses). If water did turn red, I might have imagined that, too, but
maybe not. I'm trying to think of how I'd imagine something described
as "forest-dark" or "redwood-tall," to see whether the color comes
along with the image. It doesn't, at least at the moment
("forest-dark" suggests to me as dark as a forest, a kind of
enveloping, organic shadow, not as cold as "cavern-dark," but not
specifically green; "redwood-tall" suggests height and maybe a sense of
something grown to that size rather than built, but not color at all),
but I can't say how much I'm affected by the parameters of the
experiment.
But I don't remember a time I thought "wine-dark" sounded odd, or
suggested red sea, just dark sea. There are definitely those who did
wonder if Homer meant to communicate redness, so it's possible to take
it that way. But I doubt anyone ever thought it meant a sea as dark as
white wine; the "dark" was an overriding word.
Kurt Busiek
A lot of roofs, the world over, do have peaks. And ridges and slopes.
A mountain's are far more organic and complex, but such is metaphor.
Kurt Busiek
And for that matter, the term was coined by natives of the area, and
for them roofs varied from flat to peaked to ornate temple roofs full
of complex structure and carving.
But I don't think the image was necessarily about it looking literally
like the roof of a house, but that it was high up like a roof. Stand
on a roof and you can see across an area (especially an area where
there aren't a lot o multi-tier houses), stand on a moutain and you can
see a great vista.
It doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to figure that someone up
on a high slope looked out across the vista below and thought that it
was like standing on the roof of the world.
David DeLaney
>wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>> I thought about adding a lot of text about how I meant "a
>> two-dimensional surface that is not greatly curved through the third
>> dimension" and not "necessarily perpendicular to local gravity" but
>> decided ah the hell with it. And yes, some roofs are all rounded
>> and curvy, but come on already.
>
>A lot of roofs, the world over, do have peaks. And ridges and slopes.
And lots of snow on them.
>A mountain's are far more organic and complex, but such is metaphor.
Dave "cedar shingles are organic!" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
William December Starr
thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) said:
> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr)
>
>> Question: if you can remember, did "wine-dark sea" make
>> sense to you the very first time you were exposed to it (and
>> if so, what mental image did you form, and why?),
>
> An intoxicating, opaque, possibly aromatic fluid seen in low
> light. The general notion being the ocean as seductive in
> some sense.
"Dark" as in "low-illumination" then? Given the linking of it
with "wine" that interpretation never occurred to me. Nor did
"intoxicating"; I was seeing it as a visual metaphor.
> And what's all this I hear about the woods being lovely, dark
> and deep, what's up with that? Why all the fuss over some guy
> who just happens to be too busy to take a little walk in the
> forest?
Foul. You're (facetiously) complaining about the subject matter
of a poem, not a metaphorical construct used in it.
-- wds
William December Starr
Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> said:
> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>
>> There's metaphor and then there's WTF metaphor. Where the line
>> lies is necessarily subjective; I see "a mountain range == a
>> roof" as being way on the WTF side.
>
> It always made sense to me. Climbing around on the Himalayas was
> like climbing around on the roof of the world; the highest point
> you can get on the structure. Looking at the peak of a mountain
> and looking at the peak of a rooftop can be seen as the same kind
> of thing on wildly different scales. Roof is a concept that you
> think of as shelter first, from the interior, but to others the
> sense of pointy shape higher than the rest at least shares that.
> I wonder if there's something in the idea that those people who'd
> build or shingle roofs see them differently from those who don't
> ever need to go up on one; I've done very little roof repair, but
> I've climbed around on a fair number of roofs.
"The high thing that when you fall off it you scream and then you
become horribly injured or dead of the world" then.
> If it doesn't make sense to you, I guess there's no way around
> that, but it apparently seems pretty natural to a large number of
> people, considering how long it's been around (and across numerous
> cultures and languages).
There's a lot of that going around. Too much of the world of
language seems to me a pointless effort to obscure meaning via
speaking in code. ("Dear Mr. Shakespeare: what the fuck is a
scepter'd isle?")
>>> That's not how metaphors usually work. Did I miss a memo?
>>>
>>> "What is this 'wine-dark sea' thing? Some wines are light! And
>>> seas generally aren't red, either!"
>>
>> Actually, that last bit of sarcasm does sum up my problem with that
>> line. What _was_ it supposed to mean anyway -- a dark red ocean?
>
> I always took it to mean a sea as dark as red wine, not a sea as
> red as red wine. That'd be a wine-red sea, surely.
Part of the problem there is your use of "surely." To me, humans
are too often just plain inexplicable/weird (see, e.g., "religion").
Applying some form of common-sense analysis to what they do or say
fails so frequently that I often just skip any step of the form
"Well, he couldn't _possibly_ have meant X, therefore..."
-- wds
Kurt Busiek
Actually, he's assuming (as many do) that the poem is a metaphor,
though there's no widespread agreement as to for what.
What do the woods represent? Does "before I sleep" mean "before I die"?
The poem's either an innocuous account of a minor incident or a
metaphor. Even Frost doesn't seem to have thought it was innocuous,
but what he had in mind, he never said.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com — for all your Busiek needs!
Kurt Busiek
> In article <hh3462$97r$1...@solani.org>,
> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> said:
>
>> I wonder if there's something in the idea that those people who'd
>> build or shingle roofs see them differently from those who don't
>> ever need to go up on one; I've done very little roof repair, but
>> I've climbed around on a fair number of roofs.
>
> "The high thing that when you fall off it you scream and then you
> become horribly injured or dead of the world" then.
Not to me. But it fits, at least.
> There's a lot of that going around. Too much of the world of
> language seems to me a pointless effort to obscure meaning via
> speaking in code. ("Dear Mr. Shakespeare: what the fuck is a
> scepter'd isle?")
If so, then it shouldn't strike you as unusual that other people would
embrace a metaphor you don't get.
>>>> "What is this 'wine-dark sea' thing? Some wines are light! And
>>>> seas generally aren't red, either!"
>>>
>>> Actually, that last bit of sarcasm does sum up my problem with that
>>> line. What _was_ it supposed to mean anyway -- a dark red ocean?
>>
>> I always took it to mean a sea as dark as red wine, not a sea as
>> red as red wine. That'd be a wine-red sea, surely.
>
> Part of the problem there is your use of "surely." To me, humans
> are too often just plain inexplicable/weird (see, e.g., "religion").
> Applying some form of common-sense analysis to what they do or say
> fails so frequently that I often just skip any step of the form
> "Well, he couldn't _possibly_ have meant X, therefore..."
You didn't seem to want to take it poetically but weren't taking it
literally either. If taken literally, it refers to shade, not color --
it says "dark," not "colored," after all.
If you're going to just figure it's weird and inexplicable, then it
doesn't matter what it says, because you're not thinking about what it
says.
Either way, whether you take it literally or take it as inexplicable,
it doesn't say "red."
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com — for all your Busiek needs!
Charles Wm. Dimmick
Dorothy J Heydt
>On 2009-12-25 12:59:12 -0800, wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>
>> In article <12617...@sheol.org>,
>> thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) said:
>>
>>> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr)
>>>
>>>> Question: if you can remember, did "wine-dark sea" make
>>>> sense to you the very first time you were exposed to it (and
>>>> if so, what mental image did you form, and why?),
>>>
>>> An intoxicating, opaque, possibly aromatic fluid seen in low
>>> light. The general notion being the ocean as seductive in
>>> some sense.
>>
>> "Dark" as in "low-illumination" then? Given the linking of it
>> with "wine" that interpretation never occurred to me. Nor did
>> "intoxicating"; I was seeing it as a visual metaphor.
>>
>>> And what's all this I hear about the woods being lovely, dark
>>> and deep, what's up with that? Why all the fuss over some guy
>>> who just happens to be too busy to take a little walk in the
>>> forest?
>>
>> Foul. You're (facetiously) complaining about the subject matter
>> of a poem, not a metaphorical construct used in it.
>
>Actually, he's assuming (as many do) that the poem is a metaphor,
>though there's no widespread agreement as to for what.
>
>What do the woods represent? Does "before I sleep" mean "before I die"?
Yes, of course. (Little children, on hearing the poem for the
first time, figure that out.) That's why the line is repeated.
>
>The poem's either an innocuous account of a minor incident or a
>metaphor.
It's an account of a minor incident AND a metaphor. A lot of
Frost is like that.
>Even Frost doesn't seem to have thought it was innocuous,
>but what he had in mind, he never said.
Well, "I have promises to keep." But he doesn't say what those
were.
Compare "The Road Not Taken."
"Michal Dwuznik (Michał Dwużnik)"
> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>>> I thought about adding a lot of text about how I meant "a
>>> two-dimensional surface that is not greatly curved through the third
>>> dimension" and not "necessarily perpendicular to local gravity" but
>>> decided ah the hell with it. And yes, some roofs are all rounded
>>> and curvy, but come on already.
>> A lot of roofs, the world over, do have peaks. And ridges and slopes.
>
> And lots of snow on them.
>
Michal
"Michal Dwuznik (Michał Dwużnik)"
__________
| |
| |
| |
----------
Hmm, looks like I prefer more interesting architecture...
Michal
Kurt Busiek
> In article <hh3anr$kmj$1...@solani.org>, Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>> Actually, he's assuming (as many do) that the poem is a metaphor,
>> though there's no widespread agreement as to for what.
>>
>> What do the woods represent? Does "before I sleep" mean "before I die"?
>
> Yes, of course. (Little children, on hearing the poem for the
> first time, figure that out.) That's why the line is repeated.
Frost disagreed. He said the ending of the poem was less about
symbols, and more about getting back to business after his reflection
in the field.
Many people have used the line as a metaphor for death, and it
certainly works well that way. Whether Frost meant it that way -- or
whether he meant it multiple ways, including that, or whether he meant
something else, or anything specific at all -- is a question that
ranges farther than "of course." Frost didn't write at a level that
little children could easily dig all the meaning out of, after all.
Given that he wrote the poem in only a few minutes, he may not have had
concrete ideas as to what it meant, merely an atmosphere that felt
resonant with many things.
William December Starr
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
[ re Robert Frost's "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening" ]
>> Actually, he's assuming (as many do) that the poem is a metaphor,
>> though there's no widespread agreement as to for what.
>>
>> What do the woods represent? Does "before I sleep" mean "before
>> I die"?
>
> Yes, of course. (Little children, on hearing the poem for the
> first time, figure that out.) That's why the line is repeated.
Really? I never, ever got that. It was a new idea when I saw Kurt
post it, above.
So, when a poet speaks nonsensically I'm supposed to assume that
there's a secret meaning that makes sense, and when one speaks
clearly I'm supposed to assume that he doesn't mean what the words
say?
What did Frost mean when he said "Home is where, when you have to go
there, they have to take you in?" That he liked vanilla ice cream?
-- wds
Wayne Throop
:: deep, what's up with that? Why all the fuss over some guy who just
:: happens to be too busy to take a little walk in the forest?
: wds...@panix.com (William December Starr)
: Foul. You're (facetiously) complaining about the subject matter of a
: poem, not a metaphorical construct used in it.
No, I facetiously complained about the literal meaning of the poem,
despite it fairly clearly being a metaphor of some sort. Which is not a
foul, it's exactly on-topic, said topic being, taking a literal meaning
when a metaphor and/or limited analogy is obviously called for. You might
as well complain about "wine dark sea" because the ocean doesn't contain
nearly as much alcohol as wine, or "roof of the world" because mountains
don't have shingles. Or, per above, that staring at a woods and
deciding not to take a walk in it shouldn't be poet-laureate-fodder.
All same thing.
"Hello mudder / Hello fodder / Here I am at / Camp Grenada..."
William December Starr
> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr)
>
>> Foul. You're (facetiously) complaining about the subject
>> matter of a poem, not a metaphorical construct used in it.
>
> No, I facetiously complained about the literal meaning of the
> poem, despite it fairly clearly being a metaphor of some
> sort.
Yes, *clearly*. It's a poem, after all -- it's illegal for them
to be about what they say they're about.
-- wds
William December Starr
If that's supposed to be a side view, then note what I said about
"not 'necessarily perpendicular to local gravity'."
If that's supposed to be a top view, then note that I didn't say
anything about "must be on top of a rectangular structure."
-- wds
"Michal Dwuznik (Michał Dwużnik)"
> In article <hh3eva$bqg$2...@news.onet.pl>,
> <"michal[dot]dwuznik[at]cern[dot]ch"@think.a.bit.before.replying> said:
>
>> William December Starr wrote:
>>> <"michal[dot]dwuznik[at]cern[dot]ch"@think.a.bit.before.replying> said:
>>>
>>>> Roof? Flat? Well, in some places the roofs may be flat...
>>> I thought about adding a lot of text about how I meant "a
>>> two-dimensional surface that is not greatly curved through the third
>>> dimension" and not "necessarily perpendicular to local gravity" but
>>> decided ah the hell with it. And yes, some roofs are all rounded
>>> and curvy, but come on already.
>> __________
>> | |
>> | |
>> | |
>> ----------
>>
>> Hmm, looks like I prefer more interesting architecture...
>
> If that's supposed to be a side view, then note what I said about
> "not 'necessarily perpendicular to local gravity'."
>
surface...
Michal
Wayne Throop
: Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com>
: Frost disagreed. He said the ending of the poem was less about
: symbols, and more about getting back to business after his reflection
: in the field. [...]
: Given that he wrote the poem in only a few minutes, he may not have had
: concrete ideas as to what it meant, merely an atmosphere that felt
: resonant with many things.
Which is also fine; whether you want to call those "resonances" instead
of "metaphor" still makes kvetching about the literal meaing a bit
pointless, like looking at somebody's fingertip when they try
to point at the moon.
Kurt Busiek
> In article <Kv8A2...@kithrup.com>,
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>
>> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>
> [ re Robert Frost's "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening" ]
>
>>> Actually, he's assuming (as many do) that the poem is a metaphor,
>>> though there's no widespread agreement as to for what.
>>>
>>> What do the woods represent? Does "before I sleep" mean "before
>>> I die"?
>>
>> Yes, of course. (Little children, on hearing the poem for the
>> first time, figure that out.) That's why the line is repeated.
>
> Really? I never, ever got that. It was a new idea when I saw Kurt
> post it, above.
>
> So, when a poet speaks nonsensically I'm supposed to assume that
> there's a secret meaning that makes sense, and when one speaks
> clearly I'm supposed to assume that he doesn't mean what the words
> say?
Well, it is poetry.
It may just be that metaphors aren't for you, because you greet the
idea of them with hostility and rejection, and the idea that a poem
about stopping by woods can actually be about deeper thoughts
symbolized by the incident, so that it has both literal and symbolic
meanings, you regard as baffling code rather elliptical, indicative
communication.
If you don't like things that don't stick to literal meanings, then
metaphor clearly isn't gonna be your thing.
> What did Frost mean when he said "Home is where, when you have to go
> there, they have to take you in?" That he liked vanilla ice cream?
That mercy trumps justice. Or should.
It can be read two ways: Either Warren is saying that this isn't
Silas's home, and that therefore they don't have to take Silas in. Or
he's grumbling that yes, they do, because he's unwelcome anywhere else;
that even though Silas doesn't deserve it and Warren resists the idea,
he'll find a final welcome here and that makes it more his home than
his brother's house. You could even read home as death (as you can
with so many images in poetry, like the woods, the sleeping, the snow
and whatever), than death waits to welcome us all, whether we deserve
it or not.
But the plot of the poem is about Silas, Mary and Warren; the
underlying meaning is about ties not easily defined, felt rather than
described. He's not only talking about Silas, but about all of us.
It's when he says, "The best way out is always through" that he means
he likes vanilla ice cream. But vanilla bean, not French vanilla.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Kurt Busiek
I'm not kvetching about the literal meanings, though. I like the poem
because of its language and strength of feeling, and how it carries
meaning depending on what ideas the reader brings to it.
William is kvetching about literal meanings, but he may see no
resonances or metaphors in it to begin with; to him it may be a pretty
bit of doggerel about some woods and a guy who's late.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Wayne Throop
: So, when a poet speaks nonsensically I'm supposed to assume that
: there's a secret meaning that makes sense, and when one speaks
: clearly I'm supposed to assume that he doesn't mean what the words
: say?
Rassen frassen poets. They screw everything up; nobody else ever does
that. If somebody is described as a go-getter, they clearly work for a
messenger service. If something is described as "bad news", it must
be something to do with journalism depicting unfortunate events. If a
woman is described as a "man eater", she's clearly a canibal, or maybe
a member of the Donner party. If "something's rotten in the state of
Denmark", you consult with specialists in landfills and/or composting.
If someone is challenged to the Juris Macto, it's clearly a fistfight,
so bringing swords is superfluous. The "little death" is clearly a very
unpleasant experience, and much to be avoided.
"Woah-oh here she comes. Watch out boy, she'll chew you up..."
Lon
> __________
> | |
> | |
> | |
> ----------
>
>
> Hmm, looks like I prefer more interesting architecture...
>
> Michal
_____^_____
| |
| |
| | <=== PERTH
----------
Kurt Busiek
> : wds...@panix.com (William December Starr)
> : So, when a poet speaks nonsensically I'm supposed to assume that
> : there's a secret meaning that makes sense, and when one speaks
> : clearly I'm supposed to assume that he doesn't mean what the words
> : say?
>
> Rassen frassen poets. They screw everything up; nobody else ever does
> that. If somebody is described as a go-getter, they clearly work for a
> messenger service. If something is described as "bad news", it must
> be something to do with journalism depicting unfortunate events. If a
> woman is described as a "man eater", she's clearly a canibal, or maybe
> a member of the Donner party. If "something's rotten in the state of
> Denmark", you consult with specialists in landfills and/or composting.
Or you disregard it, because you don't like in Denmark or anywhere near it.
But that bit, at least, came from a rassen-frassen poet. He just gets
quoted a lot because he wrote so many damn cliches.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Wayne Throop
: I'm not kvetching about the literal meanings, though.
I didn't intend to imply that you were. I meant to indicate that
even if you substitute "resonances" for "metaphor", the critique of
William's critique remains valid.
Kurt Busiek
> : Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com>
> : I'm not kvetching about the literal meanings, though.
>
> I didn't intend to imply that you were. I meant to indicate that
> even if you substitute "resonances" for "metaphor", the critique of
> William's critique remains valid.
I wasn't critiquing any critique of William's critique. I was
responding to Dorothy's comment on my critique of William's critique.
If I remember it right.
William's critique seems to be that he finds metaphor tricksy and
undependable, and he has little patience for it. I'm not saying he
shouldn't, I'm just noting that while metaphor may be infuriatingly
indirect for him, that doesn't mean it's not there, that Frost (and
others) were writing only on the surface. So "wine-dark sea" and "roof
of the world" may bug him, but that doesn't mean they don't work for
vast numbers of people.
It means that he might prefer to avoid them, but those who like 'em
will continue to find depth, resonance and allusion where he doesn't
see it. That difference in reading will attract different people to
different kinds of writing, because they'll find different stuff in it.
Dorothy J Heydt
Nicely phrased.
(That is what my cats do a lot, actually.)
"Michal Dwuznik (Michał Dwużnik)"
> Michal Dwuznik (Michał Dwużnik) wrote:
>
>> __________
>> | |
>> | |
>> | |
>> ----------
>>
>>
>> Hmm, looks like I prefer more interesting architecture...
>>
>
> | |
> | |
> | | <=== PERTH
> ----------
At least three planes for a roof. That's the spirit!
Michal
cryptoguy
> On 2009-12-25 12:59:12 -0800, wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <1261768...@sheol.org>,
> > thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) said:
>
> >> wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr)
>
> >>> Question: if you can remember, did "wine-dark sea" make
> >>> sense to you the very first time you were exposed to it (and
> >>> if so, what mental image did you form, and why?),
>
> >> An intoxicating, opaque, possibly aromatic fluid seen in low
> >> light. The general notion being the ocean as seductive in
> >> some sense.
>
> > "Dark" as in "low-illumination" then? Given the linking of it
> > with "wine" that interpretation never occurred to me. Nor did
> > "intoxicating"; I was seeing it as a visual metaphor.
>
> >> And what's all this I hear about the woods being lovely, dark
> >> and deep, what's up with that? Why all the fuss over some guy
> >> who just happens to be too busy to take a little walk in the
> >> forest?
>
> > Foul. You're (facetiously) complaining about the subject matter
> > of a poem, not a metaphorical construct used in it.
>
> Actually, he's assuming (as many do) that the poem is a metaphor,
> though there's no widespread agreement as to for what.
>
> What do the woods represent? Does "before I sleep" mean "before I die"?
>
> The poem's either an innocuous account of a minor incident or a
> metaphor. Even Frost doesn't seem to have thought it was innocuous,
> but what he had in mind, he never said.
I'm taking a risk here; responding before I've read the rest of the
thread. I don't think its either a minor incident, nor a metaphor.
Rather, its an illustration.
The narrator is a man caught up in the hurly burly of modernity.
Passing by the woods, he becomes aware of the Zen-like purity of the
scene, unknown to even the wood's owner, and stops to contemplate it.
But only for a minute; the world calls, and even his horse expects him
to attend to his responsibilities rather than soak up the quiet
natural beauty. Reluctantly, he leaves.
The poem can be read as merely the recounting of a minor incident. But
it can also be read as call not to be too busy to enjoy the simple
beauties of nature.
pt
cryptoguy
dwuznik[at]cern[dot]ch"@think.a.bit.before.replying> wrote:
> David DeLaney wrote:
> >> wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
> >>> I thought about adding a lot of text about how I meant "a
> >>> two-dimensional surface that is not greatly curved through the third
> >>> dimension" and not "necessarily perpendicular to local gravity" but
> >>> decided ah the hell with it. And yes, some roofs are all rounded
> >>> and curvy, but come on already.
> >> A lot of roofs, the world over, do have peaks. And ridges and slopes.
>
> > And lots of snow on them.
>
> The idea is "more slope, less snow".
Here in MA, quite a few roofs actually have small projections on some
surfaces, designed to *prevent* the snow sliding off above a doorway.
pt
Wayne Throop
: I'm taking a risk here; responding before I've read the rest of the
: thread. I don't think its either a minor incident, nor a metaphor.
: Rather, its an illustration.
:
: The narrator is a man caught up in the hurly burly of modernity.
: Passing by the woods, he becomes aware of the Zen-like purity of the
: scene, unknown to even the wood's owner, and stops to contemplate it.
: But only for a minute; the world calls, and even his horse expects him
: to attend to his responsibilities rather than soak up the quiet
: natural beauty. Reluctantly, he leaves.
Sure, that's what happens, literally. But it practically begs you to
take it as metaphor for any number of things, or at the very least, for
it to stand in for and/or evoke many similar zen-like experience. and,
perhahps regret when responsibilities intrude. And so, to mention that
"but nothing happens, it's just this guy deciding he's too busy to walk
in the woods" misses all that heavenly glory, whether zen or metaphor.
Note that you really can't avoid metaphor; language usage floats in
a veriable sea of metaphor, the very air abounds in metaphor.
Even a language as "logical" and "unambiguous" as lojban intentionally
builds in metaphor-building features, and count it a strength.
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban+Introductory+Brochure
(search for the places "metaphor" is mentioned in that page)
It is like a finger pointing toward the moon.
Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss
all that heavenly glory.
--- Bruce Lee
Judy R. Johnson
> In article<12617...@sheol.org>,
> thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) said:
>
>> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr)
>>
>>> Question: if you can remember, did "wine-dark sea" make
>>> sense to you the very first time you were exposed to it (and
>>> if so, what mental image did you form, and why?),
>>
>> An intoxicating, opaque, possibly aromatic fluid seen in low
>> light. The general notion being the ocean as seductive in
>> some sense.
>
> "Dark" as in "low-illumination" then? Given the linking of it
> with "wine" that interpretation never occurred to me. Nor did
> "intoxicating"; I was seeing it as a visual metaphor.
>
>> And what's all this I hear about the woods being lovely, dark
>> and deep, what's up with that? Why all the fuss over some guy
>> who just happens to be too busy to take a little walk in the
>> forest?
>
> Foul. You're (facetiously) complaining about the subject matter
> of a poem, not a metaphorical construct used in it.
>
>
--
====================================
NEW -- JRJ>Maybe I missed the memo, as usual. Did anybody mention that
"wine-dark sea" is one of Homer's "heroic epithets?" Same as "rosy
fingered dawn." Maybe it was, back before I subscribed a few months ago.
I admit when I first read them, back in college, I thought the dawn one
was ok - once and once only - but the other made no sense at all.
Homer's Illiad and Odyssey are apparently the first surviving written
form of a well-developed "formulaic" system of poetic composition. Think
of a bard entertaining illiterate royalty during the centuries when the
form was developed. In the course of that colloquium I learned about
heroic epithets and their importance in oral tradition, but still
disliked the wds one for decades.
Then my cousins came back from a Mediterranean cruise and mentioned that
the sea between the Greek islands was a very particular dark blue, not
sea-green as we are used to, and it started to make a bit more sense.
Maybe it was meant to indicate deep-sea travel as opposed to shore
hugging, and therefore indicated heroic travel, actually.
Entwife Judy
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> Question: if you can remember, did "wine-dark sea" make sense to you
> the very first time you were exposed to it (and if so, what mental
> image did you form, and why?), or have you just come to accept it
> through repetition and/or subconscious "well, it's a classic therefore
> it must be good" reasoning.
I thought of an ocean the darkness of some really red wines that I'd
seen. It said "wine-dark" not "wine-colored", so clearly the point was
that it was not a light and transparent sea like glass.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> In article <Kv8A2...@kithrup.com>,
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>
>> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>
> [ re Robert Frost's "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening" ]
>
>>> Actually, he's assuming (as many do) that the poem is a metaphor,
>>> though there's no widespread agreement as to for what.
>>>
>>> What do the woods represent? Does "before I sleep" mean "before
>>> I die"?
>> Yes, of course. (Little children, on hearing the poem for the
>> first time, figure that out.) That's why the line is repeated.
>
> Really? I never, ever got that. It was a new idea when I saw Kurt
> post it, above.
>
Ditto.
Though my association with that poem is that it triggers hypnotically
programmed commie assassins to blow up key locations in the United States.
David DeLaney
>William December Starr wrote:
>>> __________
>>> | |
>>> | |
>>> | |
>>> ----------
I think this won't fit in a .sig .
>>> Hmm, looks like I prefer more interesting architecture...
>>
>> If that's supposed to be a side view, then note what I said about
>> "not 'necessarily perpendicular to local gravity'."
>>
>Show me one piece of interesting architecture with roof being one flat
>surface...
The spaceport on We Made It?
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>Which is also fine; whether you want to call those "resonances" instead
>of "metaphor" still makes kvetching about the literal meaing a bit
>pointless, like looking at somebody's fingertip when they try
>to point at the moon.
Which ACTUALLY means they're pointing DIRECTLY at the BIG BANG!
Dave "try it yourself" DeLaney
Wayne Throop
: "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com>
: Though my association with that poem is that it triggers hypnotically
: programmed commie assassins to blow up key locations in the United States.
True, I can all too easily hear it in the voice of Donald Pleasence.
Kurt Busiek
My favorite dumb overinterpretation of the poem is that he's
contemplating an affair -- the woods are someone else's wife, no one
will know if he sleeps with her, but his horse is his workaday,
plodding conscience, which reminds him of his wedding vows.
Spiros Bousbouras
"John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 00:05:49 -0500, William December Starr wrote:
>
> > In article <KuzIx...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> > Heydt) said:
> >
> >>>>> or "the roof of the world..."
> >>>>
> >>>> OK. That one isn't too hard.
> >>>
> >>> That would have been the hardest for me, because it's so nonsensical.
> >>
> >> It's a standard phrase, though, apparently a translation of _Bam-i
> >> Dunya_, "a native expression, presumably Wakhi," says the Wikipedia
> >> article. It appears to have appeared first in English as the title of
> >> T. E. Gordon's travelogue dated 1838.
> >
> > Were the natives on drugs, or was it just a really bad translation?
> >
> > -- wds
>
> It seems like a fairly obvious metaphor to me. Just as the highest part
> of a building is the roof, the highest part of the world would be
> referred to as its roof.
There is also "roof of a thread" which is a common metaphor for the
opening post of a thread.
Spiros Bousbouras
Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
> On 2009-12-25 15:39:33 -0800, wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>
> > In article <Kv8A2...@kithrup.com>,
> > djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
> >
> >> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
> >
> > [ re Robert Frost's "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening" ]
> >
> >>> Actually, he's assuming (as many do) that the poem is a metaphor,
> >>> though there's no widespread agreement as to for what.
> >>>
> >>> What do the woods represent? Does "before I sleep" mean "before
> >>> I die"?
> >>
> >> Yes, of course. (Little children, on hearing the poem for the
> >> first time, figure that out.) That's why the line is repeated.
> >
> > Really? I never, ever got that. It was a new idea when I saw Kurt
> > post it, above.
> >
> > So, when a poet speaks nonsensically I'm supposed to assume that
> > there's a secret meaning that makes sense, and when one speaks
> > clearly I'm supposed to assume that he doesn't mean what the words
> > say?
>
> Well, it is poetry.
It's not *supposed* to make sense.
Kurt Busiek
A dehoy who was terribly hobble
Cast only stones that were cobble
From a shot that was sling
At bats that were ding
But only hit inks that were bobble.
Spiros Bousbouras
I think you are committing the "no flat Scotsman" fallacy there.
Spiros Bousbouras
Well , I haven't read the poem but based on what I've read in this
thread it seems to me that another reasonable interpretation is that
he's married to an ugly woman (the "horse" part) so he wants to return
home as soon as possible so that he can look at some porn on the
internet.
--
When I'm feeling white
listen to my plight
I have missed my flight
underwear too tight
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> :::: [ re Robert Frost's "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening" ]
>
> : "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com>
> : Though my association with that poem is that it triggers hypnotically
> : programmed commie assassins to blow up key locations in the United States.
>
> True, I can all too easily hear it in the voice of Donald Pleasence.
>
I hear it mostly in the voice of Charles Bronson, though. "Remember,
Nikolai... Remember."
Spiros Bousbouras
>
> > In article <KuzIx...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> > Heydt) said:
> >
> >>>>> or "the roof of the world..."
> >>>>
> >>>> OK. That one isn't too hard.
> >>>
> >>> That would have been the hardest for me, because it's so nonsensical.
> >>
> >> It's a standard phrase, though, apparently a translation of _Bam-i
> >> Dunya_, "a native expression, presumably Wakhi," says the Wikipedia
> >> article. It appears to have appeared first in English as the title of
> >> T. E. Gordon's travelogue dated 1838.
> >
> > Were the natives on drugs, or was it just a really bad translation?
> >
> > -- wds
>
> It seems like a fairly obvious metaphor to me. Just as the highest part
> of a building is the roof, the highest part of the world would be
> referred to as its roof.
All this discussion about metaphors makes me wonder : are there any
examples of metaphors in literature where the word "metaphor" itself is
understood metaphorically ?
Kurt Busiek
And the "miles to go" is a metaphor for waiting until the Internet's invented.
I think you've cracked it.
David Goldfarb
>But I don't remember a time I thought "wine-dark" sounded odd, or
>suggested red sea, just dark sea. There are definitely those who did
>wonder if Homer meant to communicate redness, so it's possible to take
>it that way. But I doubt anyone ever thought it meant a sea as dark as
>white wine; the "dark" was an overriding word.
Which is a bit amusing, because the "dark" in there is an artifact
of translation. The original Greek is "oinops", which literally
means "wine-eyed" (cf. "Cyclops", "circle-eyed"). Here, "eye" is
being used as synecdoche for "face", so "wine-faced". We can tell
that the wine in question is red and not white because the word
is also sometimes used of cattle.
--
David Goldfarb |"A non-running computer produces fewer errors."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Onur Hosten
David Goldfarb
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <12617...@sheol.org>, Wayne Throop <thr...@sheol.org> wrote:
>> like looking at somebody's fingertip when they try
>>to point at the moon.
>
>Nicely phrased.
It's a phrase from Buddhism, I believe, admonishing people to seek
enlightenment and not to grow too attached to the Buddha. (In this
usage, the Buddha is seen as the finger pointing.)
--
David Goldfarb |"Special agents have been employed to slow the
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | film down and grind it to a screeching halt."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Mystery Science Theater 3000,
| "Rocket Attack USA"
Dimensional Traveler
fall somewhere else.
--
"Dude. They've gone fractal."
Strobe
wrote:
>cryptoguy wrote:
>> On Dec 25, 5:36 pm, "Michal Dwuznik (Michal Dwuznik)" <"michal[dot]
My interpretation is that they're intended to stop dangerously solid lumps
of frozen snow from sliding onto your head.
Merely loose snow would easily pass between the 'stoppers'.
Strobe
>All this discussion about metaphors makes me wonder : are there any
>examples of metaphors in literature where the word "metaphor" itself is
>understood metaphorically ?
Wouldn't that be a metametaphor?
Cheryl
>>> matter of a poem, not a metaphorical construct used in it.
>> poem, despite it fairly clearly being a metaphor of some
>> sort.
>
> Yes, *clearly*. It's a poem, after all -- it's illegal for them
> to be about what they say they're about.
>
> -- wds
>
There's a story that a certain Famous Poet was an honoured guest at a
seminar in which various experts expounded on the meaning of his poems.
At the end, he said rather bemusedly that he hadn't been thinging any of
the very complicated stuff he'd been given credit for - in some versions
of the story, Frost was the great poet.
--
Cheryl
David DeLaney
ObSF: A Wrinkle In Time.
Dave
"Michal Dwuznik (Michał Dwużnik)"
Michal
Wayne Throop
: All this discussion about metaphors makes me wonder : are there any
: examples of metaphors in literature where the word "metaphor" itself is
: understood metaphorically ?
You are Douglas Hofstadter, AICMFQ.
Wayne Throop
::: flat surface...
: Keyword being _one_
Either of the towers of the WTC. Those towers were, so I am given to
understand, architecturally interesting. Or perhaps merely the
engineering was meant, but even so, still interesting.
Szymon Sokół
That's what porches are for:
http://www.rogergladwell.co.uk/20dec06/porch.jpg
--
Szymon Sokół (SS316-RIPE) -- Network Manager B
Computer Center, AGH - University of Science and Technology, Cracow, Poland O
http://home.agh.edu.pl/szymon/ PGP key id: RSA: 0x2ABE016B, DSS: 0xF9289982 F
Free speech includes the right not to listen, if not interested -- Heinlein H
"Michal Dwuznik (Michał Dwużnik)"
> ::: Show me one piece of interesting architecture with roof being one
> ::: flat surface...
>
> : Keyword being _one_
>
> Either of the towers of the WTC. Those towers were, so I am given to
> understand, architecturally interesting. Or perhaps merely the
> engineering was meant, but even so, still interesting.
>
near the ground having _separate_ roofs :>
Usually they were also referred as "twin towers" and treated as a pair,
not...
Michal
"Michal Dwuznik (Michał Dwużnik)"
Michal
Cryptoengineer
> <@think.a.bit.before.replying> wrote:
> >William December Starr wrote:
> >>> __________
> >>> | |
> >>> | |
> >>> | |
> >>> ----------
>
> I think this won't fit in a .sig .
>
> >>> Hmm, looks like I prefer more interesting architecture...
>
> >> If that's supposed to be a side view, then note what I said about
> >> "not 'necessarily perpendicular to local gravity'."
>
> >Show me one piece of interesting architecture with roof being one flat
> >surface...
>
> The spaceport on We Made It?
The V.A.B.
pt
Cryptoengineer
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 00:05:49 -0500, William December Starr wrote:
>
> > > Heydt) said:
>
> > >>>>> or "the roof of the world..."
>
> > >>>> OK. That one isn't too hard.
>
> > >>> That would have been the hardest for me, because it's so nonsensical.
>
> > >> It's a standard phrase, though, apparently a translation of _Bam-i
> > >> Dunya_, "a native expression, presumably Wakhi," says the Wikipedia
> > >> article. It appears to have appeared first in English as the title of
> > >> T. E. Gordon's travelogue dated 1838.
>
> > > Were the natives on drugs, or was it just a really bad translation?
>
> > > -- wds
>
> > It seems like a fairly obvious metaphor to me. Just as the highest part
> > of a building is the roof, the highest part of the world would be
> > referred to as its roof.
>
> All this discussion about metaphors makes me wonder : are there any
> examples of metaphors in literature where the word "metaphor" itself is
> understood metaphorically ?
Maybe:
"A man's reach should exceed his grasp or whats a metaphor?"
--Marshall McLuhan
pt
Cryptoengineer
You're thinking of snow deflectors. What I'm referring to are called
'snow guards', and do exactly what I said. They're usually found on
metal roofs:
http://www.metalroofsnowguards.com/
pt
Kurt Busiek
> All this discussion about metaphors makes me wonder : are there any
> examples of metaphors in literature where the word "metaphor" itself is
> understood metaphorically ?
I don't know, but I can think of one fantasy work -- the
otherwise-lousy "Halloween is Grinch Night" -- in which the word
"euphemism" is used as a euphemism.
Keith F. Lynch
> There is also "roof of a thread" which is a common metaphor for the
> opening post of a thread.
I've never heard that expression before, in over a quarter century on
Usenet. Are you sure you don't mean "root"?
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Dorothy J Heydt
>On 2009-12-25 21:42:49 -0800, Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> said:
>
>> All this discussion about metaphors makes me wonder : are there any
>> examples of metaphors in literature where the word "metaphor" itself is
>> understood metaphorically ?
>
>I don't know, but I can think of one fantasy work -- the
>otherwise-lousy "Halloween is Grinch Night" -- in which the word
>"euphemism" is used as a euphemism.
Haven't seen that for years, so I don't remember the use, but
I've heard it in real life. Bjo Trimble used it, IIRC: "If you
have to go to the euphemism, go now."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Cryptoengineer
dwuznik[at]cern[dot]ch"@think.a.bit.before.replying> wrote:
> Wayne Throop wrote:
> > ::: Show me one piece of interesting architecture with roof being one
> > ::: flat surface...
>
> > : Keyword being _one_
>
> > Either of the towers of the WTC. Those towers were, so I am given to
> > understand, architecturally interesting. Or perhaps merely the
> > engineering was meant, but even so, still interesting.
>
> Hmm, they were interesting, though as far as I remember both have parts
> near the ground having _separate_ roofs :>
No. The ground at the site sloped down to the river, The WTC actually
had several buildings, all of which had flat roofs. All rose out of a
flat level plaza, even with the ground at the inland side, and rising
about 20 m above street level at the river side. Inside, this
structure contained a shopping mall, several levels of parking, and
access to both subways and the PATH rail system.
The towers started at mall level inside the mall, and rose out of the
plaza at the full width they maintained to the top floor. There were
no setbacks or other roofs.
I used to work across the street, so I'm pretty familiar with the WTC.
pt
Kurt Busiek
> In article <hh5fqg$5cl$1...@solani.org>, Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>> On 2009-12-25 21:42:49 -0800, Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> said:
>>
>>> All this discussion about metaphors makes me wonder : are there any
>>> examples of metaphors in literature where the word "metaphor" itself is
>>> understood metaphorically ?
>>
>> I don't know, but I can think of one fantasy work -- the
>> otherwise-lousy "Halloween is Grinch Night" -- in which the word
>> "euphemism" is used as a euphemism.
>
> Haven't seen that for years, so I don't remember the use, but
> I've heard it in real life. Bjo Trimble used it, IIRC: "If you
> have to go to the euphemism, go now."
In "Grinch Night," the word "euphemism" was used as a euphemism for
"outhouse." So, much the same thing.
Keith F. Lynch
>>> What do the woods represent? Does "before I sleep" mean "before
>>> I die"?
>> Yes, of course. (Little children, on hearing the poem for the
>> first time, figure that out.) That's why the line is repeated.
> Really? I never, ever got that.
Me neither.
Cryptoengineer
> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There is also "roof of a thread" which is a common metaphor for the
> > opening post of a thread.
>
> I've never heard that expression before, in over a quarter century on
> Usenet. Are you sure you don't mean "root"?
I agree with Keith. This usage is unknown to me (and between us, we
have about a half-century of usenet experience).
pt
Keith F. Lynch
> David DeLaney wrote:
>> And lots of snow on them.
> The idea is "more slope, less snow".
Right. Snow is the main reason why rooves (roofs?) are sloped. Too
much snow accumulation on a roof could cause the roof to collapse.
For instance the Knickerbocker Theater in DC, whose flat roof
collapsed in 1922, killing 98 people.
There is snow on roofs (rooves?) around here right now, which is
appropriate for Christmas. And the snow is rapidly melting (thanks to
rain and unseasonably warm temperatures), which is appropriate for the
day after Christmas. I'd be perfectly happy to see no more snow until
next Christmas. I kind of like being able to walk on the sidewalk
rather than in the middle of the road.
Keith F. Lynch
> you the very first time you were exposed to it (and if so, what
> mental image did you form, and why?), or have you just come to
> accept it through repetition and/or subconscious "well, it's a
> classic therefore it must be good" reasoning.
Well, Homer was supposedly blind, you know.
Dimensional Traveler
not a comb- or rake-like structure on the eaves.
Dimensional Traveler
> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 23:33:36 -0800, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>
>> cryptoguy wrote:
>>> On Dec 25, 5:36 pm, "Michal Dwuznik (Michał Dwużnik)" <"michal[dot]
>>> dwuznik[at]cern[dot]ch"@think.a.bit.before.replying> wrote:
>>>> David DeLaney wrote:
>>>>> Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>>>>>> wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>>>>>>> I thought about adding a lot of text about how I meant "a
>>>>>>> two-dimensional surface that is not greatly curved through the third
>>>>>>> dimension" and not "necessarily perpendicular to local gravity" but
>>>>>>> decided ah the hell with it. And yes, some roofs are all rounded
>>>>>>> and curvy, but come on already.
>>>>>> A lot of roofs, the world over, do have peaks. And ridges and slopes.
>>>>> And lots of snow on them.
>>>> The idea is "more slope, less snow".
>>> Here in MA, quite a few roofs actually have small projections on some
>>> surfaces, designed to *prevent* the snow sliding off above a doorway.
>>>
>> Yes, but _not_ to keep it on the roof in the process. Just redirect its
>> fall somewhere else.
>
> That's what porches are for:
> http://www.rogergladwell.co.uk/20dec06/porch.jpg
>
Dimensional Traveler
remaining on the roof, collapsing it. Not a problem in some areas,
serious concern in others.
Dorothy J Heydt
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Question: if you can remember, did "wine-dark sea" make sense to
>> you the very first time you were exposed to it (and if so, what
>> mental image did you form, and why?), or have you just come to
>> accept it through repetition and/or subconscious "well, it's a
>> classic therefore it must be good" reasoning.
>
>Well, Homer was supposedly blind, you know.
More to the point, Homer was using a huge corpus of metrical
formulae that enabled him to compose lines of iambic hexameter
on the fly, and/or to remember lines that already existed. A
good translation will show this. Every character's name has an
adjective that goes with it and makes up a half-line. You don't
have to *think* of how to describe the character and make it
scan, you already have a formula that scans.
E.g., "resourceful Odysseus," "circumspect Penelope," "grey-eyed
Athene," "cloud-gathering Zeus" (also known as "the father of
gods and of men"), "sweetly laughing Aphrodite" (even when she
has just been wounded by a mortal's spear and is weeping).
There are also entire lines that are formulae, e.g., instead of
saying "So-and-so said" you say "Then resourceful Odysseus said
in reply". Or whatever name-formula you need to plug in.
There's one exception: a character in the Odyssey, Eumaios the
swine-herd, is always referred to in the second person rather
than the third: "Then, O swine-herd Eumaios, you said in reply"
-- because, for reasons my Greek isn't good enough to explain,
the nominative _Eumaios_ wouldn't scan in that line, but the
vocative _Eumaie_ would.
All these formulae had been handed down from one illiterate bard
to another for umpteen generations before Homer. The reason
Homer's epics got written down when his predecessors' weren't is
probably composed of equal parts (a) they were really good, and
(b) this new-fangled writing thing had finally arrived in the
neighborhood. Even in Attic times there were still people called
rhapsodes whose job was to recite Homer's epics (and others) on
demand.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
I agree as well, we're up to three-quarters of a century. One more
grognard and we'll hit a full century. Anyone? Anyone? Beuller?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Kurt Busiek
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:
I can only add another 16 years, but I'm suspicious of the value of
adding more exerience when it's the same quarter-century over and over.
Still, I've never seen "roof of the thread." Talk about your mixed metaphors.
"Roof of the world," now, I'd seen that many, many times.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> On 2009-12-26 10:47:33 -0800, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:
>
>> Cryptoengineer wrote:
>>> On Dec 26, 12:15 pm, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> There is also "roof of a thread" which is a common metaphor for the
>>>>> opening post of a thread.
>>>> I've never heard that expression before, in over a quarter century on
>>>> Usenet. Are you sure you don't mean "root"?
>>>
>>> I agree with Keith. This usage is unknown to me (and between us, we
>>> have about a half-century of usenet experience).
>>
>> I agree as well, we're up to three-quarters of a century. One more
>> grognard and we'll hit a full century. Anyone? Anyone? Beuller?
>
> I can only add another 16 years, but I'm suspicious of the value of
> adding more exerience when it's the same quarter-century over and over.
>
Are you saying my experience of that quarter-century is the same as
Keith's??
Usenet is broad and deep; there is room for many a quarter-century of
experience to swim and never encounter each other, and for still more to
brush edges and then pass on.
Cryptoengineer
Yes.
There are quite a number of ways of dealing with snow at or near the
door of a house. In the linked photo, if you look at the roofline,
this porch isn't there to deal with snow sliding off the roof in front
of the door; its to provide a place to knock the snow off your boots,
and prevent snow/rain from blowing in as you enter. As this is in
Brtain, its much more likely to be dealing with rain than snow.
The snow guards I was referring to do, indeed, work by *keeping* the
snow on the roof.
Conversely, one item of household kit you'll find here in NE is the
'roof rake', a very long (20 foot) handled device for pulling snow off
of sloping roofs.
pt
Cryptoengineer
> In article <hh5i32$78...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
I'm the ritualist in my lodge, and as such I have a *lot* of very long
speeches memorized, and am expected to be able to reproduce them near-
letter-perfect. I can confirm that, even outside poetry (which is much
easier to memorize than prose), the use of these repeated motifs
greatly simplifies the job.
pt
Kurt Busiek
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:
> Kurt Busiek wrote:
>> On 2009-12-26 10:47:33 -0800, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:
>>
>>> Cryptoengineer wrote:
>>>> On Dec 26, 12:15 pm, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>>> Spiros Bousbouras <spi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> There is also "roof of a thread" which is a common metaphor for the
>>>>>> opening post of a thread.
>>>>> I've never heard that expression before, in over a quarter century on
>>>>> Usenet. Are you sure you don't mean "root"?
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Keith. This usage is unknown to me (and between us, we
>>>> have about a half-century of usenet experience).
>>>
>>> I agree as well, we're up to three-quarters of a century. One more
>>> grognard and we'll hit a full century. Anyone? Anyone? Beuller?
>>
>> I can only add another 16 years, but I'm suspicious of the value of
>> adding more exerience when it's the same quarter-century over and over.
>
> Are you saying my experience of that quarter-century is the same as Keith's??
No, I'm saying it's of "the same quarter-century, over and over."
> Usenet is broad and deep; there is room for many a quarter-century of
> experience to swim and never encounter each other, and for still more
> to brush edges and then pass on.
And I suspect you could get up to several thousand years of internet
experience without changing the results; as such, the value of adding
more and more strikes me as dubious, in this case.
But don't let me stop you; it's a comment, not a criminal charge.