Plagiarism
James Nicoll
Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
lover [1].
But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
characters. Annoyingly, I can think of an example from the
mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
that I do not rosebud was the sled understand. I can't think
of any good SF or F examples. Or horror, come to think of it.
FOUNDATION has a researcher who seems to think research
involved comparing texts rather than committing actual field
work but I believe he actually rearranges the words before
he presents them as his work.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Michael Alan Chary
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
>Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
>text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
>ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
>lover [1].
>
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
>who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
>too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
>where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
>characters. Annoyingly, I can think of an example from the
>mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
>allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
>that I do not rosebud was the sled understand. I can't think
>of any good SF or F examples. Or horror, come to think of it.
"Who's Cribbing" by Jack Lewis. It is my deepest hope that I am not the
first person to post this, all things considered :):)
--
The All-New, All-Different Howling Curmudgeons!
http://www.whiterose.org/howlingcurmudgeons
Kurt Busiek
> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
> Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
> text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
> ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
> lover [1].
Magazine article, I think. Though she did swipe from numerous books,
and at least one Pulitzer-Prize-winning novel.
My favorite bit is when she has two characters talking about how
ferrets came to the Americas over the land bridge between Siberia and
Alaska, in a conversation set in 1850, between two people unlikely to
know what Siberia is, 17 years before Alaska was named and at least 40
before the land bridge was theorized, let alone taken seriously.
Her defense: It's research!
No, lady, it's "not enough research." And it's not enough writing of
the "research" you did...
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
> who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
> too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
> where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
> characters.
The TV series CHUCK depends on a false accusation of plagiarism on a
college essay or test, right?
Stephen King's "Secret Window, Hidden Garden" involves another
accusation of plagiarism, and doesn't it turn out to be rooted in an
actual piece of plagiarism that the author is stewing in guilt over,
Tell-Tale-Heart style?
kdb
Michael S. Schiffer
@panix2.panix.com:
> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
> Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
> text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
> ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
> lover [1].
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
> who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
> too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
> where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
> characters.
"Hindsight", Harry Turtledove: SF writer goes back to the fifties and
submits stories from her past and their future, along with stories
based on (what is to them) future history.
(I suspect there are a fair number of stories in which the title
character establishes him or herself in the past, or on a distant
planet, by recycling stories or songs from home.)
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
> What I'm looking for are stories
>where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
>characters.
Would "Phantom of the Paradise" count? Swan steals Winslow Leach's
music and passes it off as his own. Of course, it's a movie, not
prose.
(And for those who haven't seen it, yes, it's a fantasy -- there's a
deal with the devil in it. Bizarrely, though, while the movie is
definitely a fantasy, the novelization isn't -- either the fantastic
elements were added after the novelizer got the script, or he
systematically removed them all.)
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The seventh issue of Helix is now at http://www.helixsf.com
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
news:2008011713410050073-kurt@busiekcomics:
>
> The TV series CHUCK depends on a false accusation of plagiarism
> on a college essay or test, right?
As a vaguely unimportant background point for the title character,
yes. His roommate/best buddy got him thrown out of college to keep
him from being forcibly recuited in to a Three Letter Agency.
--
Terry Austin
"There's no law west of the internet."
- Nick Stump
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Kurt Busiek
<taus...@gmail.com> said:
> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote in
> news:2008011713410050073-kurt@busiekcomics:
>
>>
>> The TV series CHUCK depends on a false accusation of plagiarism
>> on a college essay or test, right?
>
> As a vaguely unimportant background point for the title character,
> yes. His roommate/best buddy got him thrown out of college to keep
> him from being forcibly recuited in to a Three Letter Agency.
Not unimportant -- it's the event that his whole life hinges on, and
the reason he's in place to be the recipient of the Inter/Sect (or
whatever that thing is called). He stews on it pretty regularly until
the episode that reveals why it happened.
kdb
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
>Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
>text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
>ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
>lover [1].
>
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
>who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
>too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
>where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
>characters. Annoyingly, I can think of an example from the
"Melancholy Elephants" -- Spider Robinson
Copyright extension must be shot down because there are
only so many pleasing tunes, and new composers are
continualy committing unwitting plagarism.
"Joe Haynes and the Zeitgeist" -- Ray Brown
The title character is so plugged into the spirit of the
times that he is composing famous composers famous works
before they do. Of course since he is not a famous composer
noone believes this.
Ted
Stewart Robert Hinsley
<jdni...@panix.com> writes
> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
>Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
>text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
>ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
>lover [1].
>
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
>who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
>too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
>where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
>characters. Annoyingly, I can think of an example from the
>mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
>allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
>that I do not rosebud was the sled understand. I can't think
>of any good SF or F examples. Or horror, come to think of it.
>
> FOUNDATION has a researcher who seems to think research
>involved comparing texts rather than committing actual field
>work but I believe he actually rearranges the words before
>he presents them as his work.
>
>
are looking for?
http://variety-sf.blogspot.com/2007/09/morley-roberts-anticipator-telepat
hic.html
http://variety-sf.blogspot.com/2007/09/arthur-clarkes-herbert-george-morl
ey.html
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Dorothy J Heydt
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
>Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
>text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
>ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
>lover [1].
>
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
>who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
>too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
>where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
>characters. Annoyingly, I can think of an example from the
>mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
>allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
I can think of a mystery with a plagiarism plot, in fact two of
them: one is Rex Stout's _Plot It Yourself_ and the other is
Ngaio Marsh's _When in Rome_, though in the latter, admittedly,
the plagiarism (spec. false accusation of) is more in the
setting-up and possible motive for one of the characters to be
the perp, than a major element in the story.
> FOUNDATION has a researcher who seems to think research
>involved comparing texts rather than committing actual field
>work but I believe he actually rearranges the words before
>he presents them as his work.
And gives the previous authors credit. Note that, as the
interregnum between the two Galatic Empires is loosely based on
the Dark Ages between 476 and 800 CE, so Lord Dorwin's attitude
toward research (compare all the works of the Great Writers of
ancient days and decide which one is right, or rather more right
than the others) is a take on the general attitude of medieval
scholars: all books, so precious, so fragile, so pitifully rare,
must be right and must (even through seeming contradictions) be
somehow worked into the scheme of things.
Ld. Dorwin didn't get enough screen time for us to observe him
(or anybody) writing anything new and *claiming* that he'd just
copied it from "myne olde auctor," but medieval writers sometimes
did just that.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Dorothy J Heydt
This Jack Lewis would be someone other than C[live] S[taples]
Lewis, known to his friends as Jack, I hope? Because I *thought*
I'd read everything of his, and I don't remember that one.
David E. Siegel
> In article <fmoh6d$a8...@panix2.panix.com>,
> "Melancholy Elephants" -- Spider Robinson
> Copyright extension must be shot down because there are
> only so many pleasing tunes, and new composers are
> continualy committing unwitting plagarism.
> Ted
A story which either shows a remarkable ignorance of how copyright
works, for an author who had been selling fiction for some time, or
else postulates a major change in copyright laws in the future, and
never mentions that such a change has occured.
Unlike patents, copyrights are not void due to "prior art". if soemone
actually manges to independantly create a work which, if copied would
be an infringment, it is still copyrightable (of course getting a
court to belive this might be tricky). Nor does the copyright office
routinely check already registered works against newly submitted ones
and deny copyright based on matches. Nor is it required to register
works on creation (as is implied in this story).Nor is work on which
the copyright has expired automatically forgotten or doe the absence
of copyright mean that people stop quoting shakespear? That woukld
make Project Gutenberg pointless indeed.
And as to the idea that we will "run out" of new music or new stories,
the power of permutation is such that for a reasonable length of
"tune" there are more possible tunes than could be played during the
expected life of the universe, and this applies several times over to
"stories".
The notion that any and every serving legislator is willing to take a
straingt bribe on pretty much any and every issue and vote however the
briber chooses also strikes me as false-to-fact, to say nothing of
offensive. *Some* legislators can be bribed on *some* issues. For even
the most corrupt legislator, ther are some issues which are essential
to continued political survival, and which no plausible bribe could
induce a flip-flop on. To say nothing of those who are actually not
corrupt.
As for the depiction of Virginia Heinlein, Robinson i gather knew her
personally, and I did not. All I can say is, it does not sound like
the accounts of her that I have read.
-DES
Mike Schilling
"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fmoh6d$a81$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
> Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
> text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
> ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
> lover [1].
>
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
> who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
> too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
> where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
> characters.
Clarke's "The Anticiaptor", sort of.
Gene Ward Smith
>>"Who's Cribbing" by Jack Lewis. It is my deepest hope that I am not the
>>first person to post this, all things considered :):)
>
> This Jack Lewis would be someone other than C[live] S[taples]
> Lewis, known to his friends as Jack, I hope? Because I *thought*
> I'd read everything of his, and I don't remember that one.
>
Yeah, that got me too, as I only know of one Jack Lewis in the field.
Brenda Clough
> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
> Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
> text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
> ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
> lover [1].
>
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
> who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
> too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
> where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
> characters. Annoyingly, I can think of an example from the
> mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
> allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
> that I do not rosebud was the sled understand. I can't think
> of any good SF or F examples. Or horror, come to think of it.
>
> FOUNDATION has a researcher who seems to think research
> involved comparing texts rather than committing actual field
> work but I believe he actually rearranges the words before
> he presents them as his work.
>
>
>
>
GAUDY NIGHT by Dorothy L. Sayers.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Recent short fiction:
"A Mighty Fortress"
http://www.helixsf.com/archives/Jul07/index.htm
Gene Ward Smith
> Ld. Dorwin didn't get enough screen time for us to observe him
> (or anybody) writing anything new and *claiming* that he'd just
> copied it from "myne olde auctor," but medieval writers sometimes
> did just that.
>
Chatterton did that, starting at age 11, and got away with it too.
David E. Siegel
> James Nicoll wrote:
> > Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
> > Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
> > text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
> > ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
> > lover [1].
>
> > But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
> > who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
> > too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
> > where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
> > characters. Annoyingly, I can think of an example from the
> > mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
> > allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
> > that I do not rosebud was the sled understand. I can't think
> > of any good SF or F examples. Or horror, come to think of it.
>
> > FOUNDATION has a researcher who seems to think research
> > involved comparing texts rather than committing actual field
> > work but I believe he actually rearranges the words before
> > he presents them as his work.
>
> GAUDY NIGHT by Dorothy L. Sayers.
>
-DES
David Johnston
wrote:
> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
>Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
>text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
>ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
>lover [1].
>
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
>who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
>too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
>where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
>characters. Annoyingly, I can think of an example from the
>mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
>allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
>that I do not rosebud was the sled understand. I can't think
>of any good SF or F examples. Or horror, come to think of it.
There's the time travel story where the villain was plagiarising
before he submitted his work.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
That's probably the Turtledove already mentioned though I'd say calling
her a villain is a bit strong. Still it's true that the downtime
author got a good look at her and didn't much like what he saw.
Ted
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Important to the character. Furniture to the audience. It's
background material only.
What really matters is how often Yvonne Strahovski is on-screen
wearing only her skivvies.
Default User
It also shook up Chuck's feelings about said former friend.
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Kurt Busiek
<taus...@gmail.com> said:
> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote in
> news:2008011713594611272-kurt@busiekcomics:
>
>> On 2008-01-17 13:56:55 -0800, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
>> <taus...@gmail.com> said:
>>
>>> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote in
>>> news:2008011713410050073-kurt@busiekcomics:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The TV series CHUCK depends on a false accusation of
>>>> plagiarism on a college essay or test, right?
>>>
>>> As a vaguely unimportant background point for the title
>>> character, yes. His roommate/best buddy got him thrown out of
>>> college to keep him from being forcibly recuited in to a Three
>>> Letter Agency.
>>
>> Not unimportant -- it's the event that his whole life hinges on,
>> and the reason he's in place to be the recipient of the
>> Inter/Sect (or whatever that thing is called). He stews on it
>> pretty regularly until the episode that reveals why it happened.
>>
> Important to the character. Furniture to the audience. It's
> background material only.
We disagree; it's a motivating factor and a piece of the puzzle, so
it's not furniture to my eyes.
> What really matters is how often Yvonne Strahovski is on-screen
> wearing only her skivvies.
If you count that, then the scenes in which she vaults the counter in
Wienerlicious uniform must be on the list.
Two new episodes next Thursday, in case anyone doesn't know...
kdb
Dorothy J Heydt
For some values of "got away with." Didn't he die at 19 or so?
/googles
Seventeen ... rather than dying slowly of starvation.
Doesn't sound very successful to me.
There's a poem somewhere by somebody that describes a poet, down
on his uppers, complaining to Fame that she neglects him and pays
attention to the unworthy. She replies, "Yes, but I will meet
you a century hence in the graveyard."
Dorothy J Heydt
Brenda Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>James Nicoll wrote:
>> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
>> Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
>> text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
>> ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
>> lover [1].
>>
>> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
>> who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
>> too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
>> where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
>> characters. Annoyingly, I can think of an example from the
>> mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
>> allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
>> that I do not rosebud was the sled understand. I can't think
>> of any good SF or F examples. Or horror, come to think of it.
>>
>> FOUNDATION has a researcher who seems to think research
>> involved comparing texts rather than committing actual field
>> work but I believe he actually rearranges the words before
>> he presents them as his work.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>GAUDY NIGHT by Dorothy L. Sayers.
Well ... that wasn't plagiarism, really. That was suppression of
a piece of crucial evidence because it contradicted the fellow's
pet theory.
And he'd already got his thesis all written and didn't want to
take the time to rewrite.
Dorothy J Heydt
She was, by his standards and the standards of his day, a slut.
Elf M. Sternberg
> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
> Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
> text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
> ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
> lover [1].
[1]http://anghara.livejournal.com/285007.html
Lost link, James. I had to restore it, because the scene is
so bad and so out of character because she just cut and paste. It was
*awful*.
Elf
--
Elf M. Sternberg, Immanentizing the Eschaton since 1988
http://www.pendorwright.com/
"You know how some people treat their body like a temple?
I treat mine like issa amusement park!" - Kei
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
news:5va47cF...@mid.individual.net:
> Kurt Busiek wrote:
>
>> On 2008-01-17 13:56:55 -0800, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
>> <taus...@gmail.com> said:
>>
>> >Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote in
>> > news:2008011713410050073-kurt@busiekcomics:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > The TV series CHUCK depends on a false accusation of
>> > > plagiarism on a college essay or test, right?
>> >
>> > As a vaguely unimportant background point for the title
>> > character, yes. His roommate/best buddy got him thrown out of
>> > college to keep him from being forcibly recuited in to a
>> > Three Letter Agency.
>>
>> Not unimportant -- it's the event that his whole life hinges
>> on, and the reason he's in place to be the recipient of the
>> Inter/Sect (or whatever that thing is called). He stews on it
>> pretty regularly until the episode that reveals why it
>> happened.
>
> It also shook up Chuck's feelings about said former friend.
>
Who was, predictably, not dead, despite dying on screen.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
> On 2008-01-17 14:42:42 -0800, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
> <taus...@gmail.com> said:
>
>> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote in
>> news:2008011713594611272-kurt@busiekcomics:
>>
>>> On 2008-01-17 13:56:55 -0800, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
>>> <taus...@gmail.com> said:
>>>
>>>> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote in
>>>> news:2008011713410050073-kurt@busiekcomics:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The TV series CHUCK depends on a false accusation of
>>>>> plagiarism on a college essay or test, right?
>>>>
>>>> As a vaguely unimportant background point for the title
>>>> character, yes. His roommate/best buddy got him thrown out of
>>>> college to keep him from being forcibly recuited in to a
>>>> Three Letter Agency.
>>>
>>> Not unimportant -- it's the event that his whole life hinges
>>> on, and the reason he's in place to be the recipient of the
>>> Inter/Sect (or whatever that thing is called). He stews on it
>>> pretty regularly until the episode that reveals why it
>>> happened.
>>>
>> Important to the character. Furniture to the audience. It's
>> background material only.
>
> We disagree; it's a motivating factor and a piece of the puzzle,
> so it's not furniture to my eyes.
It's an action show, not a character study.
>
>> What really matters is how often Yvonne Strahovski is on-screen
>> wearing only her skivvies.
>
> If you count that, then the scenes in which she vaults the
> counter in Wienerlicious uniform must be on the list.
>
Absolutely, though those are inferior to the outright underwear
scenes (twice) in the pilot.
I mean, really, that woman's body is hot enough you barely notice
the beaver teeth.
> Two new episodes next Thursday, in case anyone doesn't know...
>
I'm sure the tivoid recorder will catch it, but I'll just have to
make sure.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
news:874pdcy...@speakeasy.net:
> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>
>> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
>> Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
>> text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
>> ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
>> lover [1].
>
> [1]http://anghara.livejournal.com/285007.html
>
> Lost link, James. I had to restore it, because the
> scene is
> so bad and so out of character because she just cut and paste.
> It was *awful*.
>
But at least it was better than Meteor Man.
Default User
Once it turned out that "Bryce" had previously been romantically
involved with Wiener Girl, it was nigh on inevitable.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>
>> "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> news:5va47cF...@mid.individual.net:
>>
>> > Kurt Busiek wrote:
>
>> >> Not unimportant -- it's the event that his whole life hinges
>> >> on, and the reason he's in place to be the recipient of the
>> >> Inter/Sect (or whatever that thing is called). He stews on
>> >> it pretty regularly until the episode that reveals why it
>> >> happened.
>> >
>> > It also shook up Chuck's feelings about said former friend.
>> >
>> Who was, predictably, not dead, despite dying on screen.
>
> Once it turned out that "Bryce" had previously been romantically
> involved with Wiener Girl, it was nigh on inevitable.
>
Well, yeah.
tphile
with Shakespeare.
Its an injustice that Shakespeare did not get a co-writing Oscar for
Shakespeare in Love.
Most of it was cut and pasting his plays imho
tphile
David DeLaney
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
>who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
>too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
>where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
>characters. Annoyingly, I can think of an example from the
>mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
>allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
>that I do not rosebud was the sled understand. I can't think
>of any good SF or F examples. Or horror, come to think of it.
Do stories where either time-viewers (End of Eternity) or crosstime parallel-
universe invention-stealing (Paratime, Turtledove's Crosstime Traffic) drive
parts of the plot count? Or does it have to be plagiarism of actual, like,
you know, words 'n' punctuation?
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Gene Ward Smith
>>Chatterton did that, starting at age 11, and got away with it too.
>
> For some values of "got away with." Didn't he die at 19 or so?
>
> /googles
>
> Seventeen ... rather than dying slowly of starvation.
>
> Doesn't sound very successful to me.
>
He starved to death because he refused help from those who offered it. And
what he got away with was the literary fraud; had he lived longer who knows
what he would have done. Not neccessarily stuck with writing, of course--
look at the subsequent career of Rimbaud.
John Reiher
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
> Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
> text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
> ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
> lover [1].
>
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
> who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
> too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
> where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
> characters. Annoyingly, I can think of an example from the
> mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
> allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
> that I do not rosebud was the sled understand. I can't think
> of any good SF or F examples. Or horror, come to think of it.
>
> FOUNDATION has a researcher who seems to think research
> involved comparing texts rather than committing actual field
> work but I believe he actually rearranges the words before
> he presents them as his work.
Wasn't there an Analog story about a SF author who gets a letter from
his editor that he can't use the author's latest submission because,
well, it was already submitted by another author. It was nearly a word
for word version of his work.
It turns out that... <ROT-13'd>gur bgure nhgube jnf n gvzr geniryyre,
naq fur jnf gelvat gb punatr uvfgbel ol choyvfuvat gur orfg FS fgbevrf
rire jevggra. Fur whfg zvkrq hc jura gur bgure nhgube jebgr uvf
fgbel.</d'13-TOR>
--
The Kedamono Dragon
Pull Pinky's favorite words to email me.
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Have Mac, will Compute
Check out the PowerPointers Shop at:
http://www.cafeshops.com/PowerPointers
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Kurt Busiek
<taus...@gmail.com> said:
Comedy-adventure, I'd say, with character stuff. The action's usually
pretty minor. Now, SARAH CONNER CHRONICLES is an action show.
With just enough character drama so the action scenes don't all bunk
into each other.
kdb
Brenda Clough
True enough.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
A fair call.
> The action's
> usually pretty minor.
The adventure, however, is the central theme. And the background
point in question isn't all that important to any of it.
I'm not complaining, mind you. I think it's probably the best new
show of the season (so far as I'm concerned). They just kinda
glossed over the set up in the pilot, in a "don't look too close
cuz we didn't really put much effort in to this part" sort of way.
>Now, SARAH CONNER CHRONICLES is an action
> show.
That was the impression I got from the noises it made. I almost
wish I'd actually watched it, if only for Summer Glau kicking ass.
>
> With just enough character drama so the action scenes don't all
> bunk into each other.
>
The real question being, will it be something with a real story, or
"chase scene of the week." The former is harder to do, the latter
impossible to do well for more than half a season.
David Johnston
<taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The action's
>> usually pretty minor.
>
>The adventure, however, is the central theme. And the background
>point in question isn't all that important to any of it.
Well it's the reason why someone with Chuck's phenomenal abilities
ended up an apparent loser.
Kurt Busiek
<taus...@gmail.com> said:
As noted earlier, we disagree.
> I'm not complaining, mind you. I think it's probably the best new
> show of the season (so far as I'm concerned).
There, we agree, so long as "surviving" is added in there. I liked
JOURNEYMAN more.
But they killed it, the bums!
>> Now, SARAH CONNER CHRONICLES is an action
>> show.
>
> That was the impression I got from the noises it made. I almost
> wish I'd actually watched it, if only for Summer Glau kicking ass.
It's been pretty good so far. Summer Glau's been okay; the guy they
had playing the Bad Terminator in the first issue did a phenomenal
Unstoppable Robot Walk.
>> With just enough character drama so the action scenes don't all
>> bunk into each other.
>>
> The real question being, will it be something with a real story, or
> "chase scene of the week." The former is harder to do, the latter
> impossible to do well for more than half a season.
So far, what it looks like is "real story, with terminator fight at
every stage of it." The character relationships are set up well, past
entanglements are resurfacing in a way that wouldn't happen if it was a
chase-of-the-week show, and the cop-in-pursuit character has already
shown signs of unusual comprehension for a cop-in-pursuit characters.
The first episode was a really good reestablishment of everything
that's fun about the franchise, and the second bodes well for it as an
ongoing series.
kdb
Kurt Busiek
And it shattered his confidence, so it's key both to his current lot in
life and his outlook on it, both of which matter a lot.
Chuck is a genuinely decent guy who shows everything on the surface,
which is part of the fun what with him being surrounded by duplicity
and intel-agency gamesmanship. But what he shows on the surface is
colored thoroughly by the experience of being kicked out of school.
kdb
Joe Pfeiffer
>
> FOUNDATION has a researcher who seems to think research
> involved comparing texts rather than committing actual field
> work but I believe he actually rearranges the words before
> he presents them as his work.
I don't remember that researcher, but I can't imagine why that
wouldn't be valid research.
William December Starr
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
> Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
> text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
> ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
> lover.
s/dialogue/inspiration/ and the book would probably get a whole
lot more interesting.
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Mike Schilling
"Joe Pfeiffer" <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in message
news:1blk6n6...@snowball.wb.pfeifferfamily.net...
He's studying the question of whether humanity originated on a single planet
(the mythical "Urth" or "Eden") and, if so, where it might have been. His
only activity is to compare previous writings on the subject. It wouldn't
even occur to him to visit the various candidate planets, or even devise new
methods for qualifying them, say, by using subsequent advances in
comparative biology. It's valid research only of he's studying the history
of the question and has no interest in addressing it.
Joseph T Major
news:fmohtk$61k$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <fmoh6d$a81$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
>>Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
>>text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
>>ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
>>
>> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
>>who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
>>too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
>>where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
>>characters. Annoyingly, I can think of an example from the
>>mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
>>allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
>>that I do not rosebud was the sled understand. I can't think
>>of any good SF or F examples. Or horror, come to think of it.
>
> first person to post this, all things considered :):)
Too late. Todd Thromberry already did. (But he marks his posts
"no-archive", so you had to have been there to see it.
Joseph T Major
--
"Yrlsqb nx sobshuggum illingoon. Mark my words!"
-- Cyril Q. Kornbluth
William December Starr
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers who nicked
> other writers words because that sounds all together too lawsuity
> for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories where the plot
> depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the characters.
There's George R.R. Martin's Hugo-nominated novella from 1982,
"Unsound Variations," <http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?45198>.
Several old acquaintances (from high school, I think) are invited to
spend a weekend at the mansion of the only member of their group who
was successful in life, and he reveals to them that he's achieved
his revenge upon them for having wronged him back then[*1] by
inventing time travel and using it to repeatedly leap back in time
and (1) undermine their every chance for success by (2) doing or
having it done first.
The main-focus character there was a failed author who learns that
the reason he's failed is that this guy kept feeding the texts (from
the future) of his brilliant novels to other, unscrupulous writers
who were more than happy to publish them as their own before our
hero even began to write them.
*1: I believe they were all in a chess club together, and in the
Big Tournament this guy had been pressured by his fellows to
take a draw in a game he was sure he could win, because the
half-point from the draw would give them just enough to win as
a team whereas a loss would leave them in second place.
Taki Kogoma
allegedly proclaimed to rec.arts.sf.written:
"I want to know about the movie _Casablanca_. I will do this by reading
all the reviews of the film I can. What? Actually see the movie? Why
would I bother to do that when there are so many reviews out there to
read?"
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) quirk @ swcp.com
Just an article detector on the Information Supercollider.
Michael Alan Chary
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <fmohtk$61k$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>Michael Alan Chary <mch...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In article <fmoh6d$a81$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
>>>Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
>>>text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
>>>ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
>>>lover [1].
>>>
>>>who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
>>>too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
>>>where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
>>>mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
>>>allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
>>>that I do not rosebud was the sled understand. I can't think
>>>of any good SF or F examples. Or horror, come to think of it.
>>
>>"Who's Cribbing" by Jack Lewis. It is my deepest hope that I am not the
>>first person to post this, all things considered :):)
>
>Lewis, known to his friends as Jack, I hope? Because I *thought*
>I'd read everything of his, and I don't remember that one.
Haven't the foggiest. I'm inclined to doubt it, however because the
story isn't the slightest bit religious and since he wrote so much under
his own name, I can't see why he'd come over all shy about using it for
that one.
But surely you'd like to read something new by him?
Chary, firmly againt burning Nabokov's last novel....
--
The All-New, All-Different Howling Curmudgeons!
http://www.whiterose.org/howlingcurmudgeons
Michael Alan Chary
Ah. If only he'd take credit for my other posts as well.
Michael Alan Chary
>news:2008011713410050073-kurt@busiekcomics:
>
>>
>> The TV series CHUCK depends on a false accusation of plagiarism
>> on a college essay or test, right?
>
>As a vaguely unimportant background point for the title character,
>yes. His roommate/best buddy got him thrown out of college to keep
>him from being forcibly recuited in to a Three Letter Agency.
>
They weren't going to force him. He'd probably have joined willingly.
Bryce just thought he'd get killed.
darklensman
> In article <fmoh6d$a8...@panix2.panix.com>,
Book of skulls by silverberg has plagerism by one of the leads as a
key issue
Dorothy J Heydt
Of a sort. But what he's considering is the Origin Question,
that is, the question of what planet humans originated on.
(Earth is only one of the possible candidates.) And what he's
doing is reviewing all the books that have already been written
on the topic. Salvor Hardin, gruff pragmatist that he is, asks
him, "Well, why don't you go to the likeliest planets and dig
around and look for yourself?" And Dorwin says, "Oh, don't be
silly! Why should I go and look for myself, when the old masters
have already done it SO much better than anyone could in these
late, degenerate days?"
Very medieval attitude ... and of course the Empire *is* late and
degenerate, and attitudes like Dorwin's are both part of the
cause and part of the effect.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Dorothy J Heydt
Yes, but at this stage I think I will have to go to Heaven to do
it.
Jo Walton wrote a poem in which she went to heaven and went into
a bookstore and found ... several new books by Mary Renault, a
dozen Heinleins from his best period, a few by Tolkien ("he could
never write them fast"), lots of new Sayers ... I just checked
her website and, unlike her old one, this one doesn't have that
poem up, darn it.
>Chary, firmly againt burning Nabokov's last novel....
Dorothy J. Heydt, unwilling to read it
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Dorothy J Heydt
Hm. This now reminds me of Sharyn McCrumb's _Zombies of the Gene
Pool,_ which is about a group of 1950s actifen who now, forty
years or so later, are reconvening to reminisce about the
Worldcon they never got to go to because their car broke down so
they just sat home and drank beer and wrote fan papers. There's
no plagiarism exactly, but a decades-long impersonation involving
a member who stole another's identity after he had died, a fact
eventually revealed by an English teacher's examination of all
their fan papers for characteristic style.
Dorothy J Heydt
Oh my goodness yes. I'd much rather watch the ferrets ferreting
than the bipeds screwing on furry rugs.
Terry Austin
news:kruvo3tmol5ssvpd5...@4ax.com:
Which is furniture. What matters is that he _is_ an apparent loser, but has
said abilities. How he got there is not especially important to most of the
stories they tell.
--
Terry Austin
"Dude, we're all your bitch, but only Ken's wearing the juice."
- tussock
"Just throw a rock, and what screams will probably be a moron."
- Elvis (no, not that Elvis)
Terry Austin
kurt@busiekcomics:
It's actually a very good comment on the show that we both like it, and
disagree on it on such a basic point. It's a good thing that it can say
different things to different people.
>
>> I'm not complaining, mind you. I think it's probably the best new
>> show of the season (so far as I'm concerned).
>
> There, we agree, so long as "surviving" is added in there. I liked
> JOURNEYMAN more.
Didn't bother, as it didn't look like the sort of show I get in to.
>
> But they killed it, the bums!
Then - and I'm not kidding here - it must have been pretty good.
>
>>> Now, SARAH CONNER CHRONICLES is an action
>>> show.
>>
>> That was the impression I got from the noises it made. I almost
>> wish I'd actually watched it, if only for Summer Glau kicking ass.
>
> It's been pretty good so far. Summer Glau's been okay; the guy they
> had playing the Bad Terminator in the first issue did a phenomenal
> Unstoppable Robot Walk.
I did catch parts of that. Yeah, he had the walk, and general mannerisms,
down very well.
>
>>> With just enough character drama so the action scenes don't all
>>> bunk into each other.
>>>
>> The real question being, will it be something with a real story, or
>> "chase scene of the week." The former is harder to do, the latter
>> impossible to do well for more than half a season.
>
> So far, what it looks like is "real story, with terminator fight at
> every stage of it." The character relationships are set up well, past
> entanglements are resurfacing in a way that wouldn't happen if it was a
> chase-of-the-week show, and the cop-in-pursuit character has already
> shown signs of unusual comprehension for a cop-in-pursuit characters.
>
> The first episode was a really good reestablishment of everything
> that's fun about the franchise, and the second bodes well for it as an
> ongoing series.
>
Perhaps I'll pay more attention next time. I'm generally pretty cynical
about any network television attempt to do *any* kind of genre stuff.
(Though I hear Bonnie Hammer is stepping down at head of SciFi, so maybe
they'll replace wrestlign with, oh, I dunno, science fiction or
something.)
Terry Austin
@reader2.panix.com:
> In article <Xns9A288DE42C1...@216.168.3.64>,
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote in
>>news:2008011713410050073-kurt@busiekcomics:
>>
>>>
>>> The TV series CHUCK depends on a false accusation of plagiarism
>>> on a college essay or test, right?
>>
>>As a vaguely unimportant background point for the title character,
>>yes. His roommate/best buddy got him thrown out of college to keep
>>him from being forcibly recuited in to a Three Letter Agency.
>>
>
> They weren't going to force him. He'd probably have joined willingly.
> Bryce just thought he'd get killed.
They were a little ambiguous about it, but I was left with the definite
impression that he would have joined willingly, whether he wanted to or
not.
David Johnston
Lord Dorwin is one of Asimov's better characters I think.
Kurt Busiek
> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote in news:2008011717173237709-
> kurt@busiekcomics:
>
>> On 2008-01-17 16:52:16 -0800, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
>> <taus...@gmail.com> said:
>>
>>> I'm not complaining, mind you. I think it's probably the best new
>>> show of the season (so far as I'm concerned).
>>
>> There, we agree, so long as "surviving" is added in there. I liked
>> JOURNEYMAN more.
>
> Didn't bother, as it didn't look like the sort of show I get in to.
Me either. But I was looking for something more to watch, most of the
shows I followed having been cancelled or lost my interest, and
Lawrence Watt-Evans recommended it, so I gave it a try. Much, much
more than the QUANTUM LEAP knockoff it appeared to be, with great
characters, strong writing and mood and a distinctive look to the show.
kdb
James Nicoll
>Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
>text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
>ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
>
1: http://www.newsweek.com/id/94543/page/1
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Terry Austin
kurt@busiekcomics:
Still, a basic premise that just didn't interest me. To each his own. And
who knows, I may have liked it anyway. Winter Passing didn't look like
anything I'd be even remotely interested in, especially with will Ferrel,
who I'd love to watch tortured to death slowly as repentance for Elf, but
there it is.
Mike Schilling
Kurt Busiek
> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote in news:2008011720130138165-
> kurt@busiekcomics:
>
>> On 2008-01-17 19:39:37 -0800, Terry Austin <taus...@gmail.com> said:
>>
>>> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote in news:2008011717173237709-
>>> kurt@busiekcomics:
>>>
>>>> On 2008-01-17 16:52:16 -0800, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
>>>> <taus...@gmail.com> said:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not complaining, mind you. I think it's probably the best new
>>>>> show of the season (so far as I'm concerned).
>>>>
>>>> There, we agree, so long as "surviving" is added in there. I liked
>>>> JOURNEYMAN more.
>>>
>>> Didn't bother, as it didn't look like the sort of show I get in to.
>>
>> Me either. But I was looking for something more to watch, most of the
>> shows I followed having been cancelled or lost my interest, and
>> Lawrence Watt-Evans recommended it, so I gave it a try. Much, much
>> more than the QUANTUM LEAP knockoff it appeared to be, with great
>> characters, strong writing and mood and a distinctive look to the show.
>>
> Still, a basic premise that just didn't interest me. To each his own. And
> who knows, I may have liked it anyway. Winter Passing didn't look like
> anything I'd be even remotely interested in, especially with will Ferrel,
> who I'd love to watch tortured to death slowly as repentance for Elf, but
> there it is.
And on the Will Ferrell front, STRANGER THAN FICTION is very good, too,
and very unlike a Will Ferrell movie.
kdb
Richard Todd
> Ld. Dorwin didn't get enough screen time for us to observe him
> (or anybody) writing anything new and *claiming* that he'd just
> copied it from "myne olde auctor," but medieval writers sometimes
> did just that.
As did some more recent ones. Back in the 1950s, German SF publishers did good
business publishing translations of English-language SF, but thought that there
was no market for locally written SF. So Walter Ernsting, who had been making
money as a translator of SF and wanted to write his own stories, invented
a fictional British author "Clark Darlton" and sent off his stories claiming
they were translations of "Darlton"'s work.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I know Ernsting/Darlton was one of the main Perry Rhodan guys, so in the
event he succeeded beyond what anyone could have predicted..
And apparently the "English pedigree thing" wasn't just SF. There
was a recent article in Video Watchdog on a whole, long, series of
German films based on, or purporting to be based on, books by the
(now almost forgotten in the US) British mystery/crime writer Edgar
Wallace.
Ted
Terry Austin
I'll keep it in mind. IIRC, it was advertised as something of a comedy,
but not the slapstick he's best known for. Winter Passing is yet another
example of how easy it is for comedic actors to take on very serious,
dramatic roles, and do very well.
Gene Ward Smith
$rc2....@bignews1.bellsouth.net:
> I know Ernsting/Darlton was one of the main Perry Rhodan guys, so in the
> event he succeeded beyond what anyone could have predicted..
>
Perry Rhodan makes sense as a fake translation from an American author. It
makes me wonder how it got started.
ncw...@hotmail.com
> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
> Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
> text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
> ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
> lover [1].
>
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
> who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
> too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
> where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
> characters. Annoyingly, I can think of an example from the
> mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
> allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
> that I do not rosebud was the sled understand. I can't think
> of any good SF or F examples. Or horror, come to think of it.
>
> involved comparing texts rather than committing actual field
> work but I believe he actually rearranges the words before
> he presents them as his work.
>
There's the Asimov short story "Mirror Image" where Elijah Bailey has
to decide which one of two Spacer mathematicians has invented a
particular theory (his investiagtion is complicated by the fact that
he can't interview the Spacers themselves, only their robots).
Theres also a John Wyndham short story "Perforce to Dream" where two
women writers discover that they have independently written two near
identical novels based on their recurring dreams. They can't get
their books published because the publisher believes that one of them
must have plagiarized the other.
Cheers,
Nigel.
David Allsopp
<djh...@kithrup.com> writes
>Jo Walton wrote a poem in which she went to heaven and went into
>a bookstore and found ... several new books by Mary Renault, a
>dozen Heinleins from his best period, a few by Tolkien ("he could
>never write them fast"), lots of new Sayers ... I just checked
>her website and, unlike her old one, this one doesn't have that
>poem up, darn it.
Ah -- I saved that one, Dorothy. Enjoy.
I dreamed I went to Heaven, and in the bookshop there,
I went, the way I always go, to R
even though I've all the Renault, even though it isn't fair,
even though I know there won't be any more.
And there were six new Renault, six new books I'd never seen,
six unknown books she'd written since she died
and I picked them up and held them, feeling happy as a queen,
and a voice said "Have you looked the other side?
"There are four new Tolkiens waiting, he could never write them fast,
there are thirty Heinleins, written at his best,
there is Piper, there's Dunsany, there's more Sayers here at last,
and O'Brian, and Zelazny, and the rest."
And I staggered there in Heaven, as my arms and eyes spilled o'er,
and I said "Now where to start, I just don't know,
I am rich in wealth of Heaven's books, here gathered on the floor
and four hundred years of Shakespeare still to go."
[Jo Walton]
--
David Allsopp
Doug Weller
wrote:
>On 2008-01-17 13:26:37 -0800, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>
>> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
>> Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
>> text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
>> ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
>> lover [1].
>
>Magazine article, I think. Though she did swipe from numerous books,
>and at least one Pulitzer-Prize-winning novel.
>
>My favorite bit is when she has two characters talking about how
>ferrets came to the Americas over the land bridge between Siberia and
>Alaska, in a conversation set in 1850, between two people unlikely to
>know what Siberia is, 17 years before Alaska was named and at least 40
>before the land bridge was theorized, let alone taken seriously.
To be fair, it was an idea put forward by a Jesuit priest in the 17th
century to explain how Adam and Eve's children got to North America:
http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/firstnations/theories.html
>
>Her defense: It's research!
>
>No, lady, it's "not enough research." And it's not enough writing of
>the "research" you did...
>
>> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
>> who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
>> too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
>> where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
>> characters.
>
>The TV series CHUCK depends on a false accusation of plagiarism on a
>college essay or test, right?
>
>Stephen King's "Secret Window, Hidden Garden" involves another
>accusation of plagiarism, and doesn't it turn out to be rooted in an
>actual piece of plagiarism that the author is stewing in guilt over,
>Tell-Tale-Heart style?
>
>kdb
--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/
Matthias Warkus
> FOUNDATION has a researcher who seems to think research
> involved comparing texts rather than committing actual field
> work
Which, in the humanities, is perfectly acceptable. (Philosophical field
work is kind of hard to do.)
mawa
Walter Bushell
d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
> Do stories where either time-viewers (End of Eternity) or crosstime parallel-
> universe invention-stealing (Paratime, Turtledove's Crosstime Traffic) drive
> parts of the plot count? Or does it have to be plagiarism of actual, like,
> you know, words 'n' punctuation?
>
> Dave
Somewhere between those extremes. Plot and character similarities make
on suspicious, but not I think devices. For example, there is a lot of
extruded Toilken like fantasy product.
Dorothy J Heydt
In *SOME* of the humanities. But he was trying to apply that
technique to archaeology, and when it was suggested that he ought
to go to the sites and dig for himself, he said "Oh, don't be
silly; what would be the point of my going there when the old
masters have covered the ground SO much more efficiently than we
could?"
David E. Siegel
> In article <fmoh6d$a8...@panix2.panix.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
> > Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
> > text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
> > ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
> > lover [1].
>
> > who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
> > too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
> > where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
> > mystery but that book hasn't been published yet and I am not
> > allowed to discuss unpublished mysteries for some reason
> > that I do not rosebud was the sled understand. I can't think
> > of any good SF or F examples. Or horror, come to think of it.
>
> > involved comparing texts rather than committing actual field
> > he presents them as his work.
>
> his editor that he can't use the author's latest submission because,
> well, it was already submitted by another author. It was nearly a word
> for word version of his work.
>
> It turns out that... <ROT-13'd>gur bgure nhgube jnf n gvzr geniryyre,
> naq fur jnf gelvat gb punatr uvfgbel ol choyvfuvat gur orfg FS fgbevrf
> rire jevggra. Fur whfg zvkrq hc jura gur bgure nhgube jebgr uvf
> fgbel.</d'13-TOR>
>
That is the Turtledove story already mentioned upthread.
-DES
Michael Alan Chary
THis is what I was respondingto with...
>>>I'd read everything of his, and I don't remember that one.
>>
>>Haven't the foggiest. I'm inclined to doubt it, however because the
>>story isn't the slightest bit religious and since he wrote so much under
>>his own name, I can't see why he'd come over all shy about using it for
>>that one.
>>
>>But surely you'd like to read something new by him?
>
THis.
>Yes, but at this stage I think I will have to go to Heaven to do
>it.
>
But you were hoping that story was not written by Jack, so it seemed odd
that you would react in such a fashion as to hope it had been written by
Jack.
>Jo Walton wrote a poem in which she went to heaven and went into
>a bookstore and found ... several new books by Mary Renault, a
>dozen Heinleins from his best period, a few by Tolkien ("he could
>never write them fast"), lots of new Sayers ... I just checked
>her website and, unlike her old one, this one doesn't have that
>poem up, darn it.
>
>>Chary, firmly againt burning Nabokov's last novel....
>
>Dorothy J. Heydt, unwilling to read it
Well, go to the Slate and try to be convincing.
--
The All-New, All-Different Howling Curmudgeons!
http://www.whiterose.org/howlingcurmudgeons
loua...@yahoo.com
> But I'm not looking for alleged samples of SF writers
> who nicked other writers words because that sounds all together
> too lawsuity for my tastes. What I'm looking for are stories
> where the plot depends on an act of plagiarism by one of the
> characters.
Hang on, I've got one. "Never the Twain" by Kirk Mitchell, 1987. A
descendant of Bret Harte is convinced (rationally or no) that his
ancestor would have been insanely famous and his family insanely rich
if not for Mark Twain. In that being a 19th century American writer
who is not Mark Twain is slightly less rewarding than being a Jacobean
playwright who is not Shakespeare. Guy invents a time machine and has
a calligrapher write the complete text of "Huckleberry Finn" with a
fountain pen. He takes the MS back to his ancestor so he can submit it
as his own work. Complications ensue.
Side note: Mitchell has a very readable style and Amazon tells me he's
continued to put books out fairly regularly, but for some reason he
never took off. A shame.
Matthias Warkus
There's a difference between history and archaeology, and there is a
place for both.
mawa
Richard R. Hershberger
> In article <fmoh6d$a8...@panix2.panix.com>,
>
> > FOUNDATION has a researcher who seems to think research
> >involved comparing texts rather than committing actual field
> >work but I believe he actually rearranges the words before
> >he presents them as his work.
>
> And gives the previous authors credit. Note that, as the
> interregnum between the two Galatic Empires is loosely based on
> the Dark Ages between 476 and 800 CE, so Lord Dorwin's attitude
> toward research (compare all the works of the Great Writers of
> ancient days and decide which one is right, or rather more right
> than the others) is a take on the general attitude of medieval
> scholars: all books, so precious, so fragile, so pitifully rare,
> must be right and must (even through seeming contradictions) be
> somehow worked into the scheme of things.
Furthermore, lots of perfectly legitimate research involves comparing
texts. I research 19th century baseball, trying to figure out how
organizations developed and why. When you get right down to it, this
means I go to libraries and look at old texts. I'm not even sure what
"field work" would mean. The originality is in trying to use primary
sources to correct perceived flaws in secondary sources.
Asimov's point in Foundation, as I understand it, is that this is a
crappy way to do science. Plagiarism isn't the issue. Even his point
is only true to a point. Lots of theoreticians don't do lab work.
But the lab work is part of the cycle, and that is key. If all you
have are theoreticians and no experimentalists, you end up
contemplating angels dancing on the heads of pins.
Richard R. Hershberger
Dorothy J Heydt
What slate? Whom am I supposed to convince? I don't mind if
other people read Nabokov, I just don't want to.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
>Hang on, I've got one. "Never the Twain" by Kirk Mitchell, 1987. A
>descendant of Bret Harte is convinced (rationally or no) that his
>ancestor would have been insanely famous and his family insanely rich
>if not for Mark Twain. In that being a 19th century American writer
>who is not Mark Twain is slightly less rewarding than being a Jacobean
>playwright who is not Shakespeare. Guy invents a time machine and has
>a calligrapher write the complete text of "Huckleberry Finn" with a
>fountain pen. He takes the MS back to his ancestor so he can submit it
>as his own work. Complications ensue.
_Huckleberry Finn_? But that was a sequel to _The Adventures of Tom
Sawyer_. It even says so in the opening paragraph -- "You don't know
about me without you have read a book by the name of The Adventures of
Tom Sawyer; but that ain't no matter. That book was made by Mr. Mark
Twain, and he told the truth, mainly. There was things which he
stretched, but mainly he told the truth."
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The seventh issue of Helix is now at http://www.helixsf.com
Kurt Busiek
That's what it is, yep. Very quiet, elegant and human.
> Winter Passing is yet another
> example of how easy it is for comedic actors to take on very serious,
> dramatic roles, and do very well.
Looks interesting -- and anything with both Ed Harris and Amy Madigan
in it is likely worth at least a look...
kdb
loua...@yahoo.com
> In *SOME* of the humanities. But he was trying to apply that
> technique to archaeology, and when it was suggested that he ought
> to go to the sites and dig for himself, he said "Oh, don't be
> silly; what would be the point of my going there when the old
> masters have covered the ground SO much more efficiently than we
> could?"
Devil's advocate: in a sense he wasn't too far off; an archaeological
dig of a specific site involves painstakingly taking it apart and
painstakingly documenting it. At the end the original site isn't
_there_ as such any more. So if site X was excavated by the ancient
masters then yes, you have to rely on their ancient published works to
know what was there.
But in another sense, which Asimov no doubt meant, there's nothing to
stop a researcher from finding a _different_ ancient site on a
possible planet of origin and excavating it themselves. That would be
the only way to generate new data on the subject.
loua...@yahoo.com
>>Guy invents a time machine and has
> >a calligrapher write the complete text of "Huckleberry Finn" with a
> >fountain pen. He takes the MS back to his ancestor so he can submit it
> >as his own work. Complications ensue.
>
> _Huckleberry Finn_? But that was a sequel to _The Adventures of Tom
> Sawyer_. It even says so in the opening paragraph -- "You don't know
> about me without you have read a book by the name of The Adventures of
> Tom Sawyer; but that ain't no matter. That book was made by Mr. Mark
> Twain, and he told the truth, mainly. There was things which he
> stretched, but mainly he told the truth."
I guess "all of Huckleberry Finn but those bits," then.
Richard Todd
> I know Ernsting/Darlton was one of the main Perry Rhodan guys, so in the
> event he succeeded beyond what anyone could have predicted..
Yeah, though PR was after Ernsting's secret had come out, and other German
SF authors (including PR co-creater K.-H. Scheer) made it into the
market.
Kurt Busiek
<dwe...@ramtops.removethis.co.uk> said:
> On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 13:41:00 -0800, in rec.arts.sf.written, Kurt Busiek
> wrote:
>
>> On 2008-01-17 13:26:37 -0800, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>>
>>> Yes, I am a sheep and I am thinking of the Cassie
>>> Edwards situation, where (eg) she appears to have used
>>> text straight from a natural history book about black-footed
>>> ferrets as dialogue for a Lakota warrior and his pioneer
>>> lover [1].
>>
>> Magazine article, I think. Though she did swipe from numerous books,
>> and at least one Pulitzer-Prize-winning novel.
>>
>> My favorite bit is when she has two characters talking about how
>> ferrets came to the Americas over the land bridge between Siberia and
>> Alaska, in a conversation set in 1850, between two people unlikely to
>> know what Siberia is, 17 years before Alaska was named and at least 40
>> before the land bridge was theorized, let alone taken seriously.
>
> To be fair, it was an idea put forward by a Jesuit priest in the 17th
> century to explain how Adam and Eve's children got to North America:
> http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/firstnations/theories.html
Now that, at least, would have been period, if highly unusual for them
to know. I don't think Nova Orbis put the bridge in the Bering Strait,
though -- particularly since Vitus Bering hadn't gotten to charting the
area (or being born) yet.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Mike Van Pelt <m...@web1.calweb.com> wrote:
>
>
>In article <xHQjj.326$hI1...@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com>,
>Mike Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Clarke's "The Anticiaptor", sort of.
>
>Is that the one where this guy keeps finding a
>work-in-progress of his own finished and published by
>someone else? I don't recall the details; was that about
>a telepath stealing his work before he had completed it
>himself? Or was it that he was somehow "broadcasting"
>his brilliant ideas, and other people were inadvertently
>picking them up and pre-empting him?
>
>I think I recall a story about the latter case. The story
>I vaguely remember, the field was music, and the guy got so
>frustrated he decided to do a piece of pure randomness, and
>found John Cage had beat him to it just days before he was
>going to reveal his newest idea.
>
>--
>Mike Van Pelt | Wikipedia. The roulette wheel of knowledge.
>mvp at calweb.com | --Blair P. Houghton
>KE6BVH
That's one I mentioned upthread "Joe Haynes and the Zeitgeist" by
Ray Brown from the 7 Dec 81 _Analog_.
Ted
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Until recently, I wouldn't have bet that Will Ferrell could even
*identify* a human, much less play one in a movie.
>
>> Winter Passing is yet another
>> example of how easy it is for comedic actors to take on very
>> serious, dramatic roles, and do very well.
>
> Looks interesting -- and anything with both Ed Harris and Amy
> Madigan in it is likely worth at least a look...
>
Zooey Deschanel is rather promising, too. It's a rather dark
character study, with a kinda, sorta, beginning to be happy ending
(which is to say, not all mushy, sunshine-and-puppies). Not
something that would have gotten the least bit of attention from
me, without the talent in it. And, in fact, the exact same movie,
frame by frame, with less talented actors, would have bored me to
tears.
--
Terry Austin
"There's no law west of the internet."
- Nick Stump
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Another note: I wouldn't say it's a great movie, or even necessarily
a good movie. Just that I don't regret the time I spent watching it.
But that's a *lot* better than I would have expected.
David E. Siegel
It still doesn't work, of course, as Twain's literary reputation was
firmly established well before HF. If you want to "stop twain" you
need to prevent the publication of _The Innocents Abroad_. But since
most people today, if asked to name a book by MT, think of Huck Finn
first, that is what the story used, i presume.
The alternate Twain in Turtledove's _How Few Remain_ was quite
interesting, I thought -- better than many of the alternate versions
of real people in that book.
-DES
Walter Bushell
Well in physics some people do actually experiments and others apply
chalk to blackboards.
Doug Weller
wrote:
No, I think it was just a general statement.
[SNIP]
Doug
David E. Siegel
> In article <JuuJCq....@kithrup.com>,
> djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <fmqdbv$16m...@news.nnrp.de>,
> > Matthias Warkus <War...@students.uni-marburg.de> wrote:
> > >James Nicoll schrieb:
> > >> FOUNDATION has a researcher who seems to think research
> > >> involved comparing texts rather than committing actual field
> > >> work
>
> > >Which, in the humanities, is perfectly acceptable. (Philosophical field
> > >work is kind of hard to do.)
>
> > In *SOME* of the humanities. But he was trying to apply that
> > technique to archaeology, and when it was suggested that he ought
> > to go to the sites and dig for himself, he said "Oh, don't be
> > silly; what would be the point of my going there when the old
> > masters have covered the ground SO much more efficiently than we
> > could?"
>
> > Dorothy J. Heydt
> > Albany, California
>
> Well in physics some people do actually experiments and others apply
>
But the real point was the Scholastic attitude (in the technical sense
of that term) that the ONLY meaningful form of research was to read,
compare, and interpret previous work --that doing *original* work of
any sort is both pointless and rather declasse. Much as the
Scholastics would tend to settle any question by trying to determine
what Aristotle thought about it, if possible. The idea that there
could be truly *new* knowledge was foreign to their worldview -- and
to the worldview of the Asimov character. It shows his place in the
historical development of the Empire very clearly indeed.
Gene Ward Smith
da9980...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> The idea that there
> could be truly *new* knowledge was foreign to their worldview -- and
> to the worldview of the Asimov character. It shows his place in the
> historical development of the Empire very clearly indeed.
>
That's the stereotype; I don't think it is true at all. Probably the
greatest of the scholastic expositors of Aristotle to the high middle ages
was Albertus Magnus, and yet he did his own research on chemistry/alchemy,
and apparently discovered the element arsenic. Roger Bacon was another
Aristotle expert who did a great deal of his own scientific work. I think
this whole meme is simply baloney.
David E. Siegel
> "David E. Siegel" <sie...@acm.org> wrote in news:671b2745-83a9-4bde-92f3-
>
> > The idea that there
> > could be truly *new* knowledge was foreign to their worldview -- and
> > to the worldview of the Asimov character. It shows his place in the
> > historical development of the Empire very clearly indeed.
>
> That's the stereotype; I don't think it is true at all. Probably the
> greatest of the scholastic expositors of Aristotle to the high middle ages
> was Albertus Magnus, and yet he did his own research on chemistry/alchemy,
> and apparently discovered the element arsenic. Roger Bacon was another
> Aristotle expert who did a great deal of his own scientific work. I think
> this whole meme is simply baloney.
You are correct that some of the greatest figures of the high middle
ages transcended the scholastic paradigm. It is also true that the
real worldview of the real scholastics was not as black&white as the
sterotype. But the ordianary academic/theological establishment was
filled with people who fit the sterotype better than you might think.
Read what Bacon's *critics* wrote, and what many of Albertus Magnus's
students' students wrote. There was a lot of pretty much
sterotypically Scholastic thinking out there.
-DES
Dorothy J Heydt
St. Albert was a very unusual person. For every Albert, every
Thomas Aquinas, every anybody doing any original work (and there
were some), there were a large number doing the philosophical or
theological equivalent of counting the commas in Shakespeare.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
David DeLaney
>Furthermore, lots of perfectly legitimate research involves comparing
>texts. I research 19th century baseball, trying to figure out how
>organizations developed and why. When you get right down to it, this
>means I go to libraries and look at old texts. I'm not even sure what
>"field work" would mean. The originality is in trying to use primary
>sources to correct perceived flaws in secondary sources.
Well, field work might have involved talking to the various people who remember
things about 19th century baseball, but I think that's close to impossible
at this point...
>Asimov's point in Foundation, as I understand it, is that this is a
>crappy way to do science. Plagiarism isn't the issue. Even his point
>is only true to a point. Lots of theoreticians don't do lab work.
>But the lab work is part of the cycle, and that is key. If all you
>have are theoreticians and no experimentalists, you end up
>contemplating angels dancing on the heads of pins.
Or, more to the point at present, string theory.
Dave "though the LHC is nearly about to start up and possibly give us MORE
POW^H^H^HDATA!" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Gene Ward Smith
144324...@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
> Read what Bacon's *critics* wrote, and what many of Albertus Magnus's
> students' students wrote. There was a lot of pretty much
> sterotypically Scholastic thinking out there.
>
The most famous of Albertus Magnus's students by far was, of course,
Aquinas. Aquinas was a more typical Scholastic in the sense that he was
more interested in theology than in science. His characteristic method is
to cite prior authorities, including Aristotle, analzye what they said, and
then give his own views. I don't see how this helps the thesis along.
What did Rogher Bacon's critics say?
Keith F. Lynch
That he didn't write Shakespeare's plays; Shakespeare did.
No, wait, wrong Bacon.
ObSF: Michael Flynn's _Eifelheim_ really explores how the medieval
scholastics thought.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.