Re: Starving people refuse to eat food aid
trag
> Louann Miller <louan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> Not necessarily convenient. If you live in a city like New York or
> >> San Francisco a car can be damn inconvenient.
> > Yeah, there's definitely a 'car as hinderance' zone in the densest
> > part of the major cities. It may be up to 1% of the geographic area
> > of the US, and if that's where you want to live you should avoid
> > owning one.
>
> But that "1% of the geographic area of the US" (which I suspect is
> closer to 5%) is where most Americans live, and where most of the
> jobs, shopping, and social events are.
If you call that living....
Cryptoengineer
Just for the record: The Outdoors is a Very Big Place.. 5% of the US
is the area of California. 1% is Indiana. I'd put the total 'car as
hindrance zone' at well under 1%.
pt
Keith F. Lynch
> Just for the record: The Outdoors is a Very Big Place.. 5% of the
> US is the area of California. 1% is Indiana. I'd put the total 'car
> as hindrance zone' at well under 1%.
What about places where cars are useless for the opposite reason: No
roads go there? As you point out, The Outdoors is a Very Big Place.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Wayne Throop
: What about places where cars are useless for the opposite reason: No
: roads go there? As you point out, The Outdoors is a Very Big Place.
Depending on the specific expeditionary needs,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-road_vehicle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Terrain_Vehicle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogyro
There are, of course, also RVs (to get in the general region)
coupled with carrying ATVs or dirt bikes. A fairly common setup.
http://www.google.com/#q=RV+with+motorcycle
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Keith F. Lynch
As contrasted with what? Wandering in a desert? Living in a
Unabomber-style shack in the woods? Spending 12 hours every day
staring at the south end of a north-bound mule (i.e. farming)?
Dorothy J Heydt
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>trag <tr...@io.com> wrote:
>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>> But that "1% of the geographic area of the US" (which I suspect is
>>> closer to 5%) is where most Americans live, and where most of the
>>> jobs, shopping, and social events are.
>
>> If you call that living....
>
>As contrasted with what? Wandering in a desert? Living in a
>Unabomber-style shack in the woods? Spending 12 hours every day
>staring at the south end of a north-bound mule (i.e. farming)?
For each individual, I betcha, there is an ideal mix of rural and
urban features. One can't always get one's favorite mix, of
course. Mine would combine the peace and quiet of a small town
with the anonymity of a larger city, the proximity with lots of
trees and grass with the proximity of at least a few stores
(grocery, drugstore, bookshop) within walking distance, all
within a short bus ride of a large city with a university to
hand. Oh yes, and the flatness of the flats (so I don't fall
down and break bones) with the proximity of hills to look at and
catch the rain and prevent the sky from being too big.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
cryptoguy
> Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Just for the record: The Outdoors is a Very Big Place.. 5% of the
> > US is the area of California. 1% is Indiana. I'd put the total 'car
> > as hindrance zone' at well under 1%.
>
> What about places where cars are useless for the opposite reason: No
> roads go there? As you point out, The Outdoors is a Very Big Place.
What about them? You yourself said:
Keith said:
> But that "1% of the geographic area of the US" [pt: where its
> too crowded for most people to want to own a car] (which I suspect is
> closer to 5%) is where most Americans live, and where most of the
> jobs, shopping, and social events are.
To me, it looks as if you've said something you now realize is in
error. To distract from that, you are attempting to change the
subject.
pt
Keith F. Lynch
> To me, it looks as if you've said something you now realize is
> in error. To distract from that, you are attempting to change
> the subject.
Change the subject? In *this* thread? Heaven forfend!
This is a conversation, not a formal debate or a cross-examination.
Your implication was that cars are useful everwhere except in certain
parts of certain cities. I reminded you that cars require roads, and
there are plenty of places without roads.
Lon
> Cryptoengineer <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Just for the record: The Outdoors is a Very Big Place.. 5% of the
>> US is the area of California. 1% is Indiana. I'd put the total 'car
>> as hindrance zone' at well under 1%.
>
> What about places where cars are useless for the opposite reason: No
> roads go there? As you point out, The Outdoors is a Very Big Place.
Jeep. It helps get you away from both cars and even more importantly,
those who believe their taste in cars applies to more than themselves.
When the jeep runs out of capability, dirt bike. As it runs out,
Shank's Mare.
Michael Stemper
>Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> Cryptoengineer <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Just for the record: The Outdoors is a Very Big Place.. 5% of the
>>> US is the area of California. 1% is Indiana. I'd put the total 'car
>>> as hindrance zone' at well under 1%.
>>
>> What about places where cars are useless for the opposite reason: No
>> roads go there? As you point out, The Outdoors is a Very Big Place.
>
>Jeep. It helps get you away from both cars and even more importantly,
>those who believe their taste in cars applies to more than themselves.
Also, a car (or a Jeep) is very useful for getting to the beginning of
the places that roads don't go.
For instance, I'm involved in a project at Sherburne National Wildlife
Refuge. Once a year, this project entitles me to go into the interior
of the Refuge. Deep into the interior.
I drive on two-lane blacktop county roads to an access gate. I unlock
the gate and drive in on access roads, which aren't pavement, or gravel,
or dirt. They're sand. Then, I turn off of the sand roads onto various
places that were cart-tracks in the 1960s and drive through six-foot-high
grass. At the end of the abandoned cart-track, I park my car and hike
into the inaccessible (by vehicle) regions.
>When the jeep runs out of capability, dirt bike. As it runs out,
>Shank's Mare.
Works nicely for those of us who are desperate and foolish enough to
like getting out into the toolies.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
The name of the story is "A Sound of Thunder".
It was written by Ray Bradbury. You're welcome.
Hatunen
wrote:
Jeeps and dirt bikes may not be legal in some of those remote
areas.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
erilar
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
> I drive on two-lane blacktop county roads to an access gate. I unlock
> the gate and drive in on access roads, which aren't pavement, or gravel,
> or dirt. They're sand. Then, I turn off of the sand roads onto various
> places that were cart-tracks in the 1960s and drive through six-foot-high
> grass. At the end of the abandoned cart-track, I park my car and hike
> into the inaccessible (by vehicle) regions.
tote roads! My father used to give directions like "after the third
road " that only worked if you knew he counted tote roads. He was also
known to drive on them without a jeep.
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist
Dorothy J Heydt
Michael Stemper <mste...@siemens-emis.com> wrote:
>
>For instance, I'm involved in a project at Sherburne National Wildlife
>Refuge. Once a year, this project entitles me to go into the interior
>of the Refuge. Deep into the interior.
>
>I drive on two-lane blacktop county roads to an access gate. I unlock
>the gate and drive in on access roads, which aren't pavement, or gravel,
>or dirt. They're sand. Then, I turn off of the sand roads onto various
>places that were cart-tracks in the 1960s and drive through six-foot-high
>grass. At the end of the abandoned cart-track, I park my car and hike
>into the inaccessible (by vehicle) regions.
Hal comments, "Around here* we have a name for six-foot-high
grass. We call it Fire Hazard." Google tells me Sherburne is in
Minnesota, so maybe not so much of a danger? Hal says, "In
summer it probably is." But maybe with the precautious you take,
there are fewer fires? How many lightning strikes do you get
there?
*"Here" being California.
cryptoguy
> cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > To me, it looks as if you've said something you now realize is
> > in error. To distract from that, you are attempting to change
> > the subject.
>
> Change the subject? In *this* thread? Heaven forfend!
>
> This is a conversation, not a formal debate or a cross-examination.
>
> Your implication was that cars are useful everwhere except in certain
> parts of certain cities. I reminded you that cars require roads, and
> there are plenty of places without roads.
Don't put words in my mouth. My implication was that cars were useful
to *residents* of most places except parts of certain cities.
I've got news for Keith. Very, very, very few Americans have a primary
residence which more than a minute's walk from a public or private
road. I suspect most who do, live in Alaska, with the rest on small
islands.
...and even the Alaskans probably have small planes, snowmobiles, and/
or a pickup. driven off-road.
pt
cryptoguy
wrote:
> In article <a_-dnTCilJM1d7fWnZ2dnUVZ_qZi4...@giganews.com>, Lon <lon.stow...@comcast.net> writes:
> >Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> >>> Just for the record: The Outdoors is a Very Big Place.. 5% of the
> >>> US is the area of California. 1% is Indiana. I'd put the total 'car
> >>> as hindrance zone' at well under 1%.
>
> >> What about places where cars are useless for the opposite reason: No
> >> roads go there? As you point out, The Outdoors is a Very Big Place.
>
> >Jeep. It helps get you away from both cars and even more importantly,
> >those who believe their taste in cars applies to more than themselves.
>
> Also, a car (or a Jeep) is very useful for getting to the beginning of
> the places that roads don't go.
>
> For instance, I'm involved in a project at Sherburne National Wildlife
> Refuge. Once a year, this project entitles me to go into the interior
> of the Refuge. Deep into the interior.
>
> I drive on two-lane blacktop county roads to an access gate. I unlock
> the gate and drive in on access roads, which aren't pavement, or gravel,
> or dirt. They're sand. Then, I turn off of the sand roads onto various
> places that were cart-tracks in the 1960s and drive through six-foot-high
> grass. At the end of the abandoned cart-track, I park my car and hike
> into the inaccessible (by vehicle) regions.
How many people live permanently in those 'naccessible (by vehicle)
regions'?
pt
Keith F. Lynch
> Hal comments, "Around here* we have a name for six-foot-high grass.
> We call it Fire Hazard." Google tells me Sherburne is in Minnesota,
> so maybe not so much of a danger?
I'll bet they also have a lot fewer mudslides. And of course far
fewer earthquakes. But probably a lot more instances of freezing
to death.
I see that Jesse Ventura is no longer their governor. So it's no
longer interesting to speculate whether their governor can beat up
your governor.
Dorothy J Heydt
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Hal comments, "Around here* we have a name for six-foot-high grass.
>> We call it Fire Hazard." Google tells me Sherburne is in Minnesota,
>> so maybe not so much of a danger?
>
>I'll bet they also have a lot fewer mudslides. And of course far
>fewer earthquakes. But probably a lot more instances of freezing
>to death.
Yes, but that's not the point. The absolute danger level for an
area is not under discussion; we were wondering what the wildfire
risk was.
Every place on earth is risky. We live in a wild universe, not a
tame one.
Dorothy J Heydt
From the description, none. Beasts and birds, amphibians and
reptiles, but no people.
Doug Wickström
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> Hal comments, "Around here* we have a name for six-foot-high grass.
>> We call it Fire Hazard." Google tells me Sherburne is in Minnesota,
>> so maybe not so much of a danger?
>
>I'll bet they also have a lot fewer mudslides. And of course far
>fewer earthquakes. But probably a lot more instances of freezing
>to death.
>
>I see that Jesse Ventura is no longer their governor.
Jeezus! Where have you _been_ for the last six years?
--
Doug Wickström
Doug Wickström
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <hggg6t$7f0$2...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>Michael Stemper <mste...@siemens-emis.com> wrote:
>>
>>For instance, I'm involved in a project at Sherburne National Wildlife
>>Refuge. Once a year, this project entitles me to go into the interior
>>of the Refuge. Deep into the interior.
>>
>>I drive on two-lane blacktop county roads to an access gate. I unlock
>>the gate and drive in on access roads, which aren't pavement, or gravel,
>>or dirt. They're sand. Then, I turn off of the sand roads onto various
>>places that were cart-tracks in the 1960s and drive through six-foot-high
>>grass. At the end of the abandoned cart-track, I park my car and hike
>>into the inaccessible (by vehicle) regions.
>
>Hal comments, "Around here* we have a name for six-foot-high
>grass. We call it Fire Hazard." Google tells me Sherburne is in
>Minnesota, so maybe not so much of a danger? Hal says, "In
>summer it probably is." But maybe with the precautious you take,
>there are fewer fires? How many lightning strikes do you get
>there?
There are amazingly few prairie fires sparked by lightning, as
dry thunderstorms are rare here. Serious lightning usually
accompanies cloudbursts. Grass fires here are almost always set,
or are accidental results of a controlled burn going awry.
Anyway, Hal's comment suggests to me that he's never been to
Minnesota in the summertime. The grass is green and growing. And
the really high grass usually has wet feet. It rains here.
Reliably.
The only really dangerous time for grass fires is in the Spring,
after the snow melts and before the grass greens up again, and
then only in extreme wind conditions.
Forest fires, now, are another matter. White pine burns like
nobody's business, and some of the fires are still famous, more
than a hundred years later. Google "Peshtigo, Wisconsin 1871,"
Cloquet, Minnesota 1918," Baudette, Minnesota 1910," and
"Hinckley, Minnesota 1894."
The Peshtigo fire caused more deaths than any other fire in US
history.
--
Doug Wickström
R H Draney
>
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> Hal comments, "Around here* we have a name for six-foot-high grass.
>> We call it Fire Hazard." Google tells me Sherburne is in Minnesota,
>> so maybe not so much of a danger?
>
>I'll bet they also have a lot fewer mudslides. And of course far
>fewer earthquakes. But probably a lot more instances of freezing
>to death.
>
>I see that Jesse Ventura is no longer their governor. So it's no
>longer interesting to speculate whether their governor can beat up
>your governor.
We used to have a governor that was more butch than either of
them...unfortunately, that governor left to take a cabinet post....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
David DeLaney
>Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>> Hal comments, "Around here* we have a name for six-foot-high grass.
>>> We call it Fire Hazard." Google tells me Sherburne is in Minnesota,
>>> so maybe not so much of a danger?
>>
>>I'll bet they also have a lot fewer mudslides. And of course far
>>fewer earthquakes. But probably a lot more instances of freezing
>>to death.
>
>Yes, but that's not the point. The absolute danger level for an
>area is not under discussion; we were wondering what the wildfire risk was.
Minnesota being the Land of Ten Thousand Lakes Plus or Minus Three Hundred,
it's a good bet the groundwater level isn't TOO far below said grass, and
there's probably a stream nearby that buckets of water could be extracted
from, for the tossing of, onto it.
>Every place on earth is risky. We live in a wild universe, not a tame one.
Variety is the spice of life. And the spice must FLOW.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Keith F. Lynch
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> I see that Jesse Ventura is no longer their governor.
> Jeezus! Where have you _been_ for the last six years?
In Virginia, not Minnesota. Can you name the governors of the 49
states you don't live in, without looking them up? If not, how about
a little less condescension.
Keith F. Lynch
> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> Yes, but that's not the point. The absolute danger level for an
>> area is not under discussion; we were wondering what the wildfire
>> risk was.
> Minnesota being the Land of Ten Thousand Lakes Plus or Minus Three
> Hundred, it's a good bet the groundwater level isn't TOO far below
> said grass, and there's probably a stream nearby that buckets of
> water could be extracted from, for the tossing of, onto it.
See
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/fire_setting_everything_in_sight
Dorothy J Heydt
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>> Yes, but that's not the point. The absolute danger level for an
>>> area is not under discussion; we were wondering what the wildfire
>>> risk was.
>
>> Minnesota being the Land of Ten Thousand Lakes Plus or Minus Three
>> Hundred, it's a good bet the groundwater level isn't TOO far below
>> said grass, and there's probably a stream nearby that buckets of
>> water could be extracted from, for the tossing of, onto it.
Yes, that was explained upthread. High water table equals low
wildfire risk. Very handy for the Minnesotans.
cryptoguy
> Doug Wickstr\303\266m <nimshu...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >> I see that Jesse Ventura is no longer their governor.
> > Jeezus! Where have you _been_ for the last six years?
>
> In Virginia, not Minnesota. Can you name the governors of the 49
> states you don't live in, without looking them up? If not, how about
> a little less condescension.
I live in Massachusetts, and I was certainly aware that Ventura had
been out of office for a while.
pt
Kurt Busiek
Many of us are also likely aware that the governor of Alaska resigned,
even if we don't live in Alaska.
And that the governorship of New Jersey and Virginia is changing, and
that Mitt Roney is no longer governor of Massachusetts...lots of people
know lots of things about governors who aren't of their home state.
Particularly when it's someone with a national profile, like Ventura.
We'll notice when Ahnuld isn't governor of California any more, too.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Keith F. Lynch
> US history.
Yes, until 9/11. Curiously, it was the same night as the much better
known Chicago Fire, but was completely unrelated.
William December Starr
Lon <lon.s...@comcast.net> said:
> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>
>> What about places where cars are useless for the opposite reason:
>> No roads go there? As you point out, The Outdoors is a Very Big
>> Place.
>
> Jeep. It helps get you away from both cars and even more
> importantly, those who believe their taste in cars applies to more
> than themselves.
>
> When the jeep runs out of capability, dirt bike. As it runs out,
> Shank's Mare.
Or alternately, time to ask "Wait a minute, what am I *doing* out
here?"
-- wds
Doug Wickström
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>Doug Wickstr\303\266m <nims...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> The Peshtigo fire caused more deaths than any other fire in
>> US history.
>
>Yes, until 9/11. Curiously, it was the same night as the much better
>known Chicago Fire, but was completely unrelated.
As of July 10, 2008, the official death toll for the attack on
the World Trade Center of September 11, 2001, was 2,751, most of
whom died in the collapse of the buildings, and not by fire.
--
Doug Wickström
Keith F. Lynch
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Doug Wickstr\303\266m <nims...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> The Peshtigo fire caused more deaths than any other fire in
>>> US history.
>> Yes, until 9/11. Curiously, it was the same night as the much
>> better known Chicago Fire, but was completely unrelated.
> As of July 10, 2008, the official death toll for the attack on the
> World Trade Center of September 11, 2001, was 2,751, most of whom
> died in the collapse of the buildings, and not by fire.
The collapses were caused by the fire, so I'd count those as fire
deaths, along with those who died of burns or smoke inhalation and
those who jumped to their deaths to escape the flames, but not those
who died in the initial impacts. Similarly with the Pentagon. Of
course you could argue that the Pentagon fire was completely separate.
Or that the WTC fires were two separate fires. Did the WTC fires
merge after the collapse? If so, do they also count as one fire for
those who died before or during the collapse? But then the Peshtigo
Fire started as several separate fires, and may have killed many of
its victims before those fires merged into one. And of course it's
difficult to know how many died in each way. For that matter, the
total Peshtigo Fire death toll is only known to about a factor of two,
though the high end estimate is below the 9/11 total. So it can be
argued either way.
Robert A. Woodward
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> Doug Wickstr\303\266m <nims...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > The Peshtigo fire caused more deaths than any other fire in
> > US history.
>
> Yes, until 9/11. Curiously, it was the same night as the much better
> known Chicago Fire, but was completely unrelated.
And there were other fires that day in Michigan as well. But I
don't believe that they were completely unrelated. There had been
an extended dry spell throughout the entire region and that day had
an extensive wind storm.
--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>