LoC: Asmodean killed by Padan Fain
Daniel Rouk
Last chance...
Taking into a number of sources, including Jordan's comments at a signing
that we have enough clues to determine who killed Asmodean, I think we can
only conclude that Padan Fain was responsible.
I'm doing this from memory. Please feel free to contradict anything said
here with actual text.
__________
Evidence:
Padan Fain was heading to Caemlyn after leaving Two Rivers. Asmodean was
killed there.
Padan Fain can detect darkfriends, even minor ones who have even thought
about it. Asmodean surely would be detectable by him.
Padan Fain was known by the Forsaken. Asmodean probably met or saw him
before he was captured. Those deep in the shadow know that Fain is now
no longer a darkfriend. (Isam/Luc comments about him) Asmodean would
thus recognize him as a threat and shout his famous last words.
Padan Fain has a very effective weapon... allowing death to take one rather
quickly. (Does the dagger totally destroy the bodies? If not, Fain is
best served hiding his presence by dumping Asmodeans body elsewhere)
Padan Fain does NOT want Rand any more powerful than he is. Taking out a
teacher would be a great objective.
None of the forsaken know anything of Asmodean's death, or mention it. This
should be something they would mention/gloat over if they were responsible.
No clues point to Lanfear, the most favored choice, as the culprit.
Lanfear and Moirainne don't show up in LoC. If Lanfear did it then they
would probably have appeared.
Asmodean would have no reason to shout upon seeing A'g and O'g, as none of
the forsaken know about them yet. (except Moggy now)
_______
Looking at the FAQ, lets take the qualifications listed into account:
*Been recognized by Asmodean
Most likely
*Been someone Asmodean did not expect to see.
Definately
*Been able to be in Caemlyn at the time.
Probably.
*Been able to kill Asmodean
Definately - with dagger. Detection sense for darkfriends allows
him to easily find him.
*Had a motive
Doesn't want Rand to be more powerful, doesn't like Forsaken.
Well, anybody care to comment?
Daniel L. Rouk
Asha'man of the Black Tower
d...@uncecs.edu
Chad R Orzel
Please note that the header "Asmodean killed by Padan Fain" in and of
itself could be considered a spoiler. Subject: headers of this form are
generally not a Good Thing.
As there is really nothing in LoC to support/ oppose this theory, it's
not _much_ of a spoiler, but it _is_ annoying.
Rest of post deleted. Actual comments may follow at a later date.
Later,
OilCan
Bill Garrett
: Spoilers follow... you are warned...
:
There was a spoiler in the subject line. BAD FORM!
I changed it.
And really, folks, we don't need 80+ blank lines in spoilers posts.
Even the highest-resolution monitor I have access to is only
2096x2540 and I can't read a 90-line page on it. Is there _anyone_
who needs more than, say, 30 blank lines?
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
: Taking into a number of sources, including Jordan's comments at a signing
: that we have enough clues to determine who killed Asmodean, I think we can
: only conclude that Padan Fain was responsible.
I think Lanfear killed him. I'll skip right to the end, though.
: *Been recognized by Asmodean
: Most likely
Lanfear, absolutely.
: *Been someone Asmodean did not expect to see.
: Definately
Lanfear, absolutely. In fact, just before Asmodean died, he was reflecting
on how glad he was that Lanfear was gone. Look at the two pages leading up
to his death; it's all Asmo thinking about Lanfear. Thus he would have been
_really_ shocked to see her. Jordan has used this sort of ironic
foreshadowing countless times before.
: *Been able to be in Caemlyn at the time.
: Probably.
This is the weak point with Lanfear, because her presence in Caemlyn would
mean that she escaped the Snakes and Foxes pretty quickly. It's possible,
but it brings up the question of why we didn't see her in LoC. I think
she's laying low and avoiding the DO. Her plans have been running contrary
to the DO's, and Asmo was the one person who knew.
: *Been able to kill Asmodean
: Definately - with dagger. Detection sense for darkfriends allows
: him to easily find him.
Lanfear could have used a normal weapon, or she could have used the Power.
Asmo was still mostly shielded, and Lanfear might still have an angreal.
: *Had a motive
: Doesn't want Rand to be more powerful, doesn't like Forsaken.
In addition to wanting to keep Asmodean silent about what she has done,
Lanfear had just been spurned by Rand. Killing Asmodean would take away
Rand's best chance to become more powerful, defeat the other Forsaken, and
win the Last Battle.
--
Bill Garrett "What sane person could live in this world
gar...@cs.unc.edu and not be crazy?" -- Ursula K. LeGuin
Shane M Kilmon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Your spoiler warnings were useless, as you basically gave your *possible*
spoiler in the subject line. Please be careful.
shane
ski...@ccs.neu.edu | Passivity equals compliance --ROS
http://www.ccs.neu.edu |
--
shane |
ski...@ccs.neu.edu | Passivity equals compliance --ROS
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/skilmon/ |
The Bryster
the signing thinking there wouldn't be a vast crowd, I was wrong *sigh*.
I did manage to get all of my books signed which was great. I talked
with RJ, but he appeared to be very distant which is understandable
considering his position. What was really neat was that I was able to
talk with Mrs. Jordan for 20 minutes. First pff, she was an angel. She
talked alot about things that her husband coulsn't since he was busy signing books.
It turns out that she's an editor for Tor, not only for her hudband's work
but for others as well. She said that TEotW tooks fours years to write be-
cause he had to create all of the countries in Randland first. AS has been
mentioned by others on the net, his first idea for the series is going to
be the last scene; his next was the breaking down of Rand's door in TEotW.
The rest has been adlib from there. Next we talked about LoC and it's
creation. It took a long time to compile, in fact TOO much time. It
was "supposed" to be done by April 1994 at hte latest. However,it wasn't
even close to being done. Somwhere past teh deadline, they lost a chapter
[ I believe it was Daemillis Wells (sp), which might explain why it's so
choppy]. They flew RJ up to New York and he wrote the final parts in a hotel
for about two weeks. He finished on August 28, 1994. Tor had to do MAJOR
overtime to check and edit it for it's Oct. 12 release date.
Mrs Jordan also added that LoC was their most difficult one composed ever.
It was a real marker as to how fast they could produce a novel at this point
in the series. After his book signing tour he's going straight to his word
processor and type through Thanksgiving and probably Xmas, cause he hasn't
even started yet. RJ made an arrangement with a manager ((I think) from
Tor for a March deadline. If book seven wasn't completed by that time,
then the fall release would be cancelled, maening that book seven will not
be released to as late as Fall 1996 possibly. This manager seems to have
forgotten this arrangement and wanted to have it released by fall 1995, under
pressure from Tor publishing and the parent St. Martin's it appears.
I myself personally hope RJ doesn't try to kill himself to meet this deadline.
Even though I love this series, I would hate to see the style and plot go
to hell cause he was rushed, even thought I would tear my hair out for all
his waiting. Even though RJ is a good writer, I don't think a writer with
a judicial stenographer's hand would be able to make that deadline. I look
foward to his next book, whenever it comes.
Brian Bax ba...@quads.uchicago.edu
D
D
processotr
Daniel Rouk
Spoilers follow... you are warned...
gar...@cs.unc.edu (Bill Garrett) writes:
>There was a spoiler in the subject line. BAD FORM!
>I changed it.
Oh please... that can't be a spoiler, as nobody knows the answer!
It would be as much of a spoiler as posting Rand Dies! and having
the text about how Rand will spill his blood on the slopes of
Mt. Doom, er Shayol Ghol. Everybody who's read LoC knows its not
a spoiler, and everybody who hasn't should know spoilers aren't
posted as subjects.
>And really, folks, we don't need 80+ blank lines in spoilers posts.
>Even the highest-resolution monitor I have access to is only
>2096x2540 and I can't read a 90-line page on it. Is there _anyone_
>who needs more than, say, 30 blank lines?
*shug* Don't care either way...
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>d...@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Daniel Rouk) writes:
>: Taking into a number of sources, including Jordan's comments at a signing
>: that we have enough clues to determine who killed Asmodean, I think we can
>: only conclude that Padan Fain was responsible.
>I think Lanfear killed him. I'll skip right to the end, though.
>: *Been recognized by Asmodean
>: Most likely
>Lanfear, absolutely.
>: *Been someone Asmodean did not expect to see.
>: Definately
>Lanfear, absolutely. In fact, just before Asmodean died, he was reflecting
>on how glad he was that Lanfear was gone. Look at the two pages leading up
>to his death; it's all Asmo thinking about Lanfear. Thus he would have been
>_really_ shocked to see her. Jordan has used this sort of ironic
>foreshadowing countless times before.
Jordan also has mentioned that he's quite amused that people think they
know what is going on based on these 'Rules of Jordan'. Ironic forshadowing
is something that is used, but isn't a given explaining every mystery of
the series.
>: *Been able to be in Caemlyn at the time.
>: Probably.
>This is the weak point with Lanfear, because her presence in Caemlyn would
>mean that she escaped the Snakes and Foxes pretty quickly. It's possible,
>but it brings up the question of why we didn't see her in LoC. I think
>she's laying low and avoiding the DO. Her plans have been running contrary
>to the DO's, and Asmo was the one person who knew.
Are her plans running contrary to the Dark One's? The Dark One ordered
the Forsaken to let Rand live. Lanfear and Ishmael were acting on
that advice for quite some time. Ishmael trying to bring Rand to the
Dark Side, making him the new dark champion. Lanfear protecting him
from Sammael's trollocs. We have evidence that both of them are stronger
than many of the other forsaken. Is it not possible that they have known
the Dark One's ultimate plan longer than Demandred and the rest? I think
Lanfear's suggestions to Rand they they use the sa'angreal together and
challenge the Dark One are simply temptations to lure Rand to the dark.
Simular to Darth Vador and the Emperor's suggestions to Luke Skywalker
that he grab onto hate and strike them down. Lanfear really doesn't have
a reason to kill Asmodean except out of revenge that Rand turned her down.
If she had regained enough sense to not attack Rand directly, I think she
would have kept enough sense not to kill Asmodean.
>: *Been able to kill Asmodean
>: Definately - with dagger. Detection sense for darkfriends allows
>: him to easily find him.
>Lanfear could have used a normal weapon, or she could have used the Power.
>Asmo was still mostly shielded, and Lanfear might still have an angreal.
>: *Had a motive
>: Doesn't want Rand to be more powerful, doesn't like Forsaken.
>In addition to wanting to keep Asmodean silent about what she has done,
>Lanfear had just been spurned by Rand. Killing Asmodean would take away
>Rand's best chance to become more powerful, defeat the other Forsaken, and
>win the Last Battle.
Daniel L. Rouk
d...@uncecs.edu
Joe Uno Shaw
d...@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Daniel Rouk) wrote:
> gar...@cs.unc.edu (Bill Garrett) writes:
> >There was a spoiler in the subject line. BAD FORM! I changed it.
> Oh please... that can't be a spoiler, as nobody knows the answer!
You certainly made it sound like it was a certain thing in the
subject line. True, it wasn't a spoiler. but you made it
sound like it was one.
> It would be as much of a spoiler as posting Rand Dies! [...]
> Everybody who's read LoC knows its not
> a spoiler, and everybody who hasn't should know spoilers aren't
> posted as subjects.
Just like everybody knows that all spoilers are always well protected
with control-Ls and whitespace, and in the subject line? We all know
that's not always true, as much as I wish it were. What's to stop
someone from seeng that subject and assuming it was a spoiler?
Spoilers follow... you are warned...
The above said, I suspect you're right. But i'm going to argue both
sides here....
> >d...@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Daniel Rouk) writes:
> >: Taking into a number of sources, including Jordan's comments at a signing
> >: that we have enough clues to determine who killed Asmodean, I think we can
> >: only conclude that Padan Fain was responsible.
[Bill's Ironic foreshadowing about Lanfear theory munched.]
> Jordan also has mentioned that he's quite amused that people think they
> know what is going on based on these 'Rules of Jordan'. Ironic forshadowing
> is something that is used, but isn't a given explaining every mystery of
> the series.
Especially when he up and changes the rules on us....
> >: *Been able to be in Caemlyn at the time.
> >This is the weak point with Lanfear, because [...]
It may also be a weak point for Fain, as well. He left the White
Tower in TfoH, and we know he's in Caemlyn (presumably, at least)
im middle of LoC. From the one section with him, we can assume he
didn't return via the Ways, as suggested in another post: "He had
... a few Darkfriends gathered in Caemlyn and on the way from Tar
Valon." <LoC: 28, Letters, 408> If he used the Ways from TV, he
would probably have used the Waygate in TV itself, and arrived
right in Caemlyn, which would give him no chance to gather DFs
"on the way". The question is, did he have time to return the
normal way? Perhaps.
> >: *Been able to kill Asmodean
> >: Definately - with dagger. Detection sense for darkfriends allows
> >: him to easily find him.
Even after being cut off from the Dark One?o Probably. Fain:
"he found he could tell [a DF] at a glance, even someone who had
only thought of swearing to the Shadow" <LoC: 28, Letters, 409>.
> >Lanfear could have used a normal weapon, or she could have used the Power.
> >Asmo was still mostly shielded, and Lanfear might still have an angreal.
But Asmo should have been able to channel enough to protect himself
from any non-channeler, shouldn't he?
> >: *Had a motive
> >: Doesn't want Rand to be more powerful, doesn't like Forsaken.
YEs, but so did all the Chosen. He know its not Demandred from
the Prologue, but who's to say it isn't Granedal or Semirhage?
They at least knew Asmodean was helping Rand. If we can assume
neither one went to Shayol Ghul before Demandred's visit the
day after Rahvin's death, it could be etiher one of them (but
not both.)
>to...@tfs.com (Tom) writes:
>> 2) Does Asmodean know who Padan Fain is?
>Probably... Fain was a hound sent out by Ishmael to find Rand. The Dark
>One now knows that he's broken free of his leash.
But Asmodean wasn't freed until after Fain's last visit to Shayol
Ghul. Yes, Ish is probably the one who sent Slayer after Fain,
but why would Ishamael have told the other Chosen about his
'failure' to hold onto a DF?
>> 3) Why didn't Padan Fain attempt to kill Mat, who was also
>> in that general vicinity?
Because Mat wasn't wandering the Palace alone?
>> 4) I had the general impression that the killer opened a
>> gateway. Can Padan do that? Or am I off on the gateway?
No gateway is/was implied. But I don't see what the Ways had to
do with this question.
It's not _definately_ Fain, but he is the best candidate at this time.
- Joe
--
The TOR Books gopher (with Robert Jordan Tour info.): gopher.panix.com
rasfwrj FAQ: ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/sf/robert-jordan-faq
The Wheel of Time archive (with the Wheel of Time FAQ), WWW and anon. ftp:
http://faser.cs.olemiss.edu/jordan/jordan.html [ISRI/NtF-NtF]
Andrea Lynn Leistra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Last chance...
>
>
>Taking into a number of sources, including Jordan's comments at a signing
>that we have enough clues to determine who killed Asmodean, I think we can
>only conclude that Padan Fain was responsible.
>
>I'm doing this from memory. Please feel free to contradict anything said
>here with actual text.
>__________
>Evidence:
Anything I didn't comment on munched.
>Padan Fain was heading to Caemlyn after leaving Two Rivers. Asmodean was
>killed there.
I don't remember, I'll take your word for it.
>Padan Fain was known by the Forsaken. Asmodean probably met or saw him
>before he was captured. Those deep in the shadow know that Fain is now
>no longer a darkfriend. (Isam/Luc comments about him) Asmodean would
>thus recognize him as a threat and shout his famous last words.
Additionally, in LoC we learn that Fain would die if any of the Chosen
(his word, his thought) got their hands on him. He obviously isn't too
fond of them, and may fear that they found out.
>Padan Fain has a very effective weapon... allowing death to take one rather
>quickly. (Does the dagger totally destroy the bodies? If not, Fain is
>best served hiding his presence by dumping Asmodeans body elsewhere)
I don't think it does.
>None of the forsaken know anything of Asmodean's death, or mention it. This
>should be something they would mention/gloat over if they were responsible.
Not necessarily. They tend to keep a lot of secrets and lie a lot. I
think I do agree with you, but I'm just letting my thoughts run wild.
Aviendha
Visualize Whirled Peas
Daniel Rouk
Spoilers follow... you are warned...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>...etc...
ski...@ccs.neu.edu (Shane M Kilmon) writes:
>Your spoiler warnings were useless, as you basically gave your *possible*
>spoiler in the subject line. Please be careful.
Nope. The spoiler warning was there to protect against REAL LoC spoilers.
Ex: Forsaken don't know who killed Asmodean, Lanfear doesn't show up in
LoC. Padan Fain has a darkfriend sense.
Those are real spoilers documented in the text.
Asmodean killed by Padan Fain is simple conjecture. Plenty of other people
have already put forward equally valid theories about the who done it.
Point noted though, although I think many of you are overly spoiler
sensitive.
Danny Rouk
d...@uncecs.edu
Pam Korda
>Minor LOC Spoilers follow... you are warned...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>only conclude that Padan Fain was responsible.
Not by a longshot.
>Padan Fain was heading to Caemlyn after leaving Two Rivers. Asmodean was
>killed there.
Agreed, but Rand, Asm, etc being in Caemlyn was not an expected thing.
Fain would've had to act fast to kill Asm between the time they
arrived in Caemlyn and the time Asm died. Not impossible, but still
far from a certainty.
>Padan Fain can detect darkfriends, even minor ones who have even thought
>about it. Asmodean surely would be detectable by him.
Fain's usual actions vis-a-vis DFs is to use them, not kill them. It
would have been more Fain-like for him to try to intimidate Al'thor's
DF than to kill him on sight. I really do not see any way Fain
would've recognised Asm on sight, since Asm wasn't let into the world
until _after_ Fain broke free of the DO and became Ordeith. (Note: SG
is NOT the DO's prison. The prison is that the DO is locked out of the
universe. When the forsaken were bound they were bound between the
world of the Wheel and wherever the DO is. Thus, Fain wouldn't have
seen anybody but Ish when he was at SG.
>Padan Fain was known by the Forsaken. Asmodean probably met or saw him
>before he was captured. Those deep in the shadow know that Fain is now
>no longer a darkfriend. (Isam/Luc comments about him) Asmodean would
>thus recognize him as a threat and shout his famous last words.
This, I disagree with. As far as the Forsaken are concerned, Fain is
an inferior type of foe. (and, as I said above, the Forsaken were
unconscious the whole time Fain was a DF, and so they wouldn't know
him on sight. At most, they'd have been briefed by the DO or Ish as a
traitor to kill on sight.)
>Padan Fain has a very effective weapon... allowing death to take one rather
>quickly.
Actually, the dagger doesn't kill all that quickly. There is plenty of
prolonged suffering before one actually expires. When Fain killed the
novice/Accepted in Tar Valon, he and Alviarin had time to carry on
their little "I'm more important than you" bit while the girl rotted
alive. If Asm had been killed by the dagger, it would not have said
"the word still hung in the air when death took him (or something
similar)." It would have said "'You? NO!' and then his screaming began
in earnest. finally, death took him."
>Padan Fain does NOT want Rand any more powerful than he is. Taking out a
>teacher would be a great objective.
true, but this is an objective for any of Rand's foes to kill Asm.
>None of the forsaken know anything of Asmodean's death, or mention it. This
>should be something they would mention/gloat over if they were responsible.
_Demandred_ doesn't know anything about it. We don't hear all the
other forsaken think on it. In fact, in the LOC Prologue, the DO lists
those who have "died the final death"--Asm for betrayal, and Rahvin by
balefire. this implies that the DO had a hand in Asm's demise, and
Fain does NOT do the DO's bidding.
>*Been someone Asmodean did not expect to see. More like, "Been
someone Asm was _terrified_ to see." in FOH, he is described as seeing
whoever, >>the blood draining from his face<<. This implies absolute
terror, more than Fain would inspire in any Forsaken, even Asm.
FWIW, having seen that the DO has started bringing his dead minions
back to life, I have returned to my original theory that Ishamael
(re-incarnated by the DO) did it. How Asm recognised him in a new
body, I haven't decided yet. Maybe the glowing eyes/teeth?
Pam "not dead yet" Korda | To get the WOTFAQ between
ko...@kimbark.uchicago.edu | postings, E-mail me, or ftp
ko...@rainbow.uchicago.edu | it from faser.cs.olemiss.edu.
>>>>>>>>>>WOTFAQ CONTAINS SPOILERS UP TO TFOH!!!<<<<<<<<<
jame...@daisy.cc.utexas.edu
Bill Garrett <gar...@cs.unc.edu> wrote:
>d...@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Daniel Rouk) writes:
>: Spoilers follow... you are warned...
>:
>
>There was a spoiler in the subject line. BAD FORM!
>I changed it.
>
>And really, folks, we don't need 80+ blank lines in spoilers posts.
>Even the highest-resolution monitor I have access to is only
>2096x2540 and I can't read a 90-line page on it. Is there _anyone_
>who needs more than, say, 30 blank lines?
>
>: Taking into a number of sources, including Jordan's comments at a signing
>: that we have enough clues to determine who killed Asmodean, I think we can
>: only conclude that Padan Fain was responsible.
>
[some analysis snipped, Daniel thinks Padan Fain did it, Bill thinks
Lanfear did]
Here goes my shot--
JoaR was killed by...
Lews Therin Telamon
>: *Been recognized by Asmodean
Yes
>: *Been someone Asmodean did not expect to see.
Yes!
>: *Been able to be in Caemlyn at the time.
Yes
>: *Been able to kill Asmodean
Yes
>: *Had a motive
Ok, was a loony theory of mine before, but after LoC, I don't think it's
so looney. Some new evidence--Rand finds that when he uses the OP,
especially when he uses *a lot* of OP, LTT seeps in. Well, after the big
battle in tFoH, Rand would have been very susceptible for takeover.
Moreover, in LoC, LTT shows an obsessive hatred of the Forsaken. If he
did gain control, one of the first things he would do is kill Asmodean
(a tangent--if he gets control now, would he kill Taim, "kill 'em all"?).
Cheers,
James
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Yu | net.pursuits: ToriAmosRobertJordan
jame...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | DilbertDavidLettermanandTheX-Files
Alan James Fryer
>Daniel Rouk (d...@ecsvax.uncecs.edu) wrote:
>: Spoilers follow... you are warned...
>
>
> 1) Does Padan Fain know that Asmodean was teaching Rand?
Probably not, but he can see dark friends and who knows what he can
see when he looks at the forsaken.
> 2) Does Asmodean know who Padan Fain is?
He is important enough to the DO that he has sent people to kill him, so
I would say yes.
> 3) Why didn't Padan Fain attempt to kill Mat, who was also
> in that general vicinity?
Asmodean just walked in on him. Fain didn't go looking for him but Asmodean
saw him, recognized him, so he killed him. Fain's goal is to kill rand
slowely and personally, the others are secondary (Perin and Matt less so
that anyone else but still secondary.)
>
> 4) I had the general impression that the killer opened a
> gateway. Can Padan do that? Or am I off on the gateway?
No gateway I think.
--
_________________________________________________________________________
alf...@teleport.com - I'll deny everything....
Amol Keshav Malshe
--
Amol Keshav Malshe
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt7081b
Internet: gt7...@prism.gatech.edu