FAQ Related Signing Answers
Mike Lawson
Hello all. I thought I'd pass this info along concerning some
enlightenment Jordan provided at the signing in Cincinnati on
10/12/96. It's FAQ related, and I've already sent a copy to Pam
so she can update the FAQ (if necessary).
Someone asked Jordan about the 'gars, and mentioned that he'd seen
theories that Lanfear was one of the 'gars. I was expecting a RAFO,
but RJ gave the guy a disgusted look, and said that "No, Osan'gar
and Aran'gar are Aginor and Balthamel." The guy said (I'm
paraphrasing here), "You're confirming this, and not hinting about
it?" RJ replied (more paraphrasing), "I'm confirming. After all,
it's pretty obvious in the books that it's those two. After all,
that's what Aginor thought was so funny; Balthamel, the lecher,
was stuck in a female body." Jordan then went on to give the
standard disclaimer that a lot of the clues are already in the books,
and reasonably intelligent people should be able to figure a lot
of this out. His job, he said, was to make sure you're still
guessing about some stuff at the end of the story.
It's fairly safe to say that this was Jordan's version of thwacking
the guy with a clue stick...
Also, there's another (non FAQ related) note concerning the
pre-Bore AoL...
RJ had mentioned (in response to another question) that what the
characters believe does not make it so (Moir's statements were
used as an example), so I asked whether the pre-Bore AoL was the
Utopia that the characters believed it to be. His reply is
paraphrased below:
Compared to their current world, it certainly would be a utopia.
However, that doesn't mean that it wasn't perfect. Of course,
outbreaks of diseases were kept to a minimum, but it and other
disasters of that ilk still occurred. Evil still existed, as
well.
The Forsaken, for example, weren't exactly a stellar bunch to
begin with. Semirhage, for example, was a sadist. (I'll
skip his description of what a sadist is.) She went into
her profession (the equivalent of a surgeon) because it
provided an outlet for her sadism. (He then cited some
studies that showed that there were more people with sadist
tendencies in the medical profession, and surgeons in particular,
to support his point.) Aginor (whom he said after some prompting
had several elements of the classic mad scientist type) was
a biological scientist who never considered the consequences
of his actions. Aginor would say, "I wonder what would happen
if I took the ebola virus and altered it to be an airborne
virus." He'd go ahead and do just that, all without realizing
he'd be creating a potentially unstoppable plague. All Aginor
would reply to that was, "Hmm. Interesting." (Jordan then
mentioned Aginor's creation of the Trollocs, their defects,
"It was strong, big, tough to kill, and......stupid," and
that it was the birth of the first Myrddral that saved the
Trollocs from being a complete failure.)
Even back in the AoL, regular, ordinary folks could do some
pretty nasty things. He then cited a study about a small
town of ordinary Germans in WW2 who did some pretty horrific
things (I believe he was referring to the book "Hitler's
Willing Executioners").
(Jordan had also mentioned Asmodean, and the fact that Asmodean
was a child prodigy who in adulthood could never equal or come
to grips with what he did as a child. He always felt that if
he could live just a little bit longer, he could surpass what
musical feats he performed in the past.)
There were about 30-40 of us there who attended the signing,
but I don't know who (if any) regularly read the froup. So,
unless someone else can independently confirm my description
of the replies, I guess it's really only on my word that this
is standing on...
(I don't suppose Ryan came down from OSU for the
signing, did he??)
--Mike L.
Pam: I apologize for forgetting to send you the blurb about
Asmodean; reformatting my mail for posting to the froup jogged
my memory about it...
--
Michael Lawson | "To strive, to seek, to find,
Product Development Engineer - SDRC | and not to yield."
e-mail: mike....@sdrc.com | -Alfred, Lord Tennyson
Sarah Keast
Mike Lawson wrote:
[snip]
> to support his point.) Aginor (whom he said after some prompting
> had several elements of the classic mad scientist type) was
> a biological scientist who never considered the consequences
> of his actions. Aginor would say, "I wonder what would happen
> if I took the ebola virus and altered it to be an airborne
> virus." He'd go ahead and do just that, all without realizing
> he'd be creating a potentially unstoppable plague. All Aginor
> would reply to that was, "Hmm. Interesting." (Jordan then
This reminds me: I recently heard something about the scientist who
went along to see the first atomic bombs dropped on Japan. His first
reaction was not "Oh my god, we just killed blankety blank thousand
people!" but "Oh my god, it worked!"
I'm not even sure that stereotype is that rare in reality. I've met a
few people and read about a few more... But I don't think being absent
minded to consequences or overly objective neccessarily equals evil. SO
there must be something else up with Aginor.
Sarah
Leroy R Sachleben Jr
In article <54346u$j...@info1.sdrc.com>, gcla...@sdrc.com (Mike Lawson) wrote:
>Hello all. I thought I'd pass this info along concerning some
>enlightenment Jordan provided at the signing in Cincinnati on
>10/12/96. It's FAQ related, and I've already sent a copy to Pam
>so she can update the FAQ (if necessary).
>There were about 30-40 of us there who attended the signing,
>but I don't know who (if any) regularly read the froup. So,
>unless someone else can independently confirm my description
>of the replies, I guess it's really only on my word that this
>is standing on...
I was ther and will back up Mike's post
Roy Sachleben
rlsa...@homer.louisville.edu
John S. Novak, III
In <54346u$j...@info1.sdrc.com> gcla...@sdrc.com (Mike Lawson) writes:
Peeve, Peeve, Peeve: There were signings in Virginia, but all far
enough away, and on workdays, that I couldn't get to one. Fuck, fuck,
fuck.
> Even back in the AoL, regular, ordinary folks could do some
> pretty nasty things. He then cited a study about a small
> town of ordinary Germans in WW2 who did some pretty horrific
> things (I believe he was referring to the book "Hitler's
> Willing Executioners").
Hell, you don't even have to put people under the extreme
psychological pressures of the Nazi regime to get them to do
disgusting, hideous things. All you have to do is _tell_ them to do
things.
There was a wonderful (from a clinical standpoint) series of
psychological experiements run some time ago illustrating just exactly
that. In the experiemnts, there was a test subject, and a staff of
supporting actors.
The subject was told that he was an extra lab assistant, and that the
goal of the experiment was to monitor the effects of negative
reinforcement (in this case, pain) on learning rate.
The actor who was pretending to be the subject was strapped into a
chair with electrode-looking things stuck to his skin. He was given a
list of things to memorize. Every time he made a mistake, the real
subject of the test was to administer a shock to the actor. Each
time, the shock would ramp up.
The apparatus allegedly contolling the shock was even labelled as to
what voltages it was puting out-- at the higher levels, if the test
were real, they would very likely, almost certainly, have caused death
by electrocution.
When "shocked" of course, the actor would vary his responses from
seeming mild discomfort, through yelps, and finally, to screams of
pain and fainting, I think.
The administrators of the test expected some people to continue with
the treatments-- a few, anyway-- but expected some if not most to balk
before the actor reached the screaming and bgging stage.
While some of th real subjects did balk, all the administraotrs had to
do was continue to urge that the shocks were necessary, and that they
couldn't just quit and qalk out now. None of the real subjects
stopped.
Scary, innit?
And all this in a nice, modern, American post-war psych department of
a university. You _don't_ need the pressures of World War II to bring
this behaviour on.
>(Jordan had also mentioned Asmodean, and the fact that Asmodean
>was a child prodigy who in adulthood could never equal or come
>to grips with what he did as a child. He always felt that if
>he could live just a little bit longer, he could surpass what
>musical feats he performed in the past.)
Ooh. I like that.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cris.com
http://cegt201.bradley.edu/~jsn/index.html
The Humblest Man on the Net
John S. Novak, III
>This reminds me: I recently heard something about the scientist who
>went along to see the first atomic bombs dropped on Japan. His first
>reaction was not "Oh my god, we just killed blankety blank thousand
>people!" but "Oh my god, it worked!"
Well, there's probably more to the story than that, because they
pretty much knew it was going to work. There were tests done in the
desert first, you know.
Courtenay Footman
In article <546l8f$d...@herald.concentric.net>,
John S. Novak, III <J...@cris.com> wrote:
>While some of th real subjects did balk, all the administraotrs had to
>do was continue to urge that the shocks were necessary, and that they
>couldn't just quit and qalk out now. None of the real subjects
>stopped.
Good story, but a little exaggerated. The actual facts are bad enough.
In most countries, 60% of the test subjects continued the series to
the end. In Germany, it was 80%. Unfortunately, I read about this
a long time ago, and do not remember the references.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Courtenay Footman I have again gotten back on the net, and
c...@lightlink.com again I will never get anything done.
Erica L. Sadun
:> Even back in the AoL, regular, ordinary folks could do some
:> pretty nasty things. He then cited a study about a small
:> town of ordinary Germans in WW2 who did some pretty horrific
:> things (I believe he was referring to the book "Hitler's
:> Willing Executioners").
:Hell, you don't even have to put people under the extreme
:psychological pressures of the Nazi regime to get them to do
:disgusting, hideous things. All you have to do is _tell_ them to do
:things.
:
:There was a wonderful (from a clinical standpoint) series of
:psychological experiements run some time ago illustrating just exactly
:that. In the experiemnts, there was a test subject, and a staff of
:supporting actors.
Ooooh!!! "The 25th Level"! A good play (even if it did star William "overact"
Shatner).
Anyway, HWE posits that the germans did not need psychological
pressures. He documents case after case after case in which people
simply desired to kill jews, such was the level of antisemitism at the
time; they they felt they were doing the "right" thing. Go read the book.
The hardback was 30% off when I bought it and I'm sure its available
at your local library.
-- Erica
p.s. and don't forget the Poles who kept killing Jews even after
the war was over. (Washington Post, Monday 8 July 1996, page D1,
"The War Ended. Hate Did Not.)
Dave Ricketts
>Hell, you don't even have to put people under the extreme
>psychological pressures of the Nazi regime to get them to do
>disgusting, hideous things. All you have to do is _tell_ them to do
>things.
>There was a wonderful (from a clinical standpoint) series of
>psychological experiements run some time ago illustrating just exactly
>that. In the experiemnts, there was a test subject, and a staff of
>supporting actors.
>The subject was told that he was an extra lab assistant, and that the
>goal of the experiment was to monitor the effects of negative
>reinforcement (in this case, pain) on learning rate.
These subjects were volunteers who were paid something like $30, I think.
>The actor who was pretending to be the subject was strapped into a
>chair with electrode-looking things stuck to his skin. He was given a
>list of things to memorize. Every time he made a mistake, the real
>subject of the test was to administer a shock to the actor. Each
>time, the shock would ramp up.
>The apparatus allegedly contolling the shock was even labelled as to
>what voltages it was puting out-- at the higher levels, if the test
>were real, they would very likely, almost certainly, have caused death
>by electrocution.
The highest voltages were even labeled as "XXX - potentially lethal" etc.
>When "shocked" of course, the actor would vary his responses from
>seeming mild discomfort, through yelps, and finally, to screams of
>pain and fainting, I think.
>The administrators of the test expected some people to continue with
>the treatments-- a few, anyway-- but expected some if not most to balk
>before the actor reached the screaming and bgging stage.
>While some of th real subjects did balk, all the administraotrs had to
>do was continue to urge that the shocks were necessary, and that they
>couldn't just quit and qalk out now. None of the real subjects
>stopped.
Well, actually, that's not quite true... aw hell, see below.
>Scary, innit?
>And all this in a nice, modern, American post-war psych department of
>a university. You _don't_ need the pressures of World War II to bring
>this behaviour on.
(incidently, this series is now considered to have an extremely questionable
ethical basis due to the fact that the subjects were unaware of true
nature of the experiments and that they were supposedly adversly
psychologically affected by the experience)
I've seen footage of this.
If you're referring to the Milgrim experiments of the 1960's, it gets
worse. There were several experimental groups run, in fact. In some, the
actors sat behind a wall where their screams were heard but not seen.
Some were in the same room as the subjects, and some were right next to
the subject. In this last situation, the actor's hand had to be physically
held to a metal plate in order for the "shocks" to be administered and the
"experiment" to proceed. Therefore the person administering potentially
lethal (but, of course, imaginary) doses of electricity had to restrain
the actor and hold his hand to the plate. All the while, the actor is
screaming and writhing in "pain." Many of the actors even claimed to have
heart conditions. The ones behind the walls eventually stopped screaming
and played dead, but, when told to proceed by the "experts" the subjects
actually kept on "shocking" them! Shocking dead men with electricity!!
It's really sickening to watch... I mean REALLY sickening. I'm ashamed to
carry the same number of chromosomes as these people.
Actually, several of the subjects did refuse to continue when it
became apparent that the dosage was getting dangerous, but it was some
disgusting figure like 35% on average. That means 65% of the people in
the experiment would actually have killed someone via electric shock
because they were told to do so by an authority figure and because they
were assured that it was not their responsability. BTW the number of
subjects who proceeded decreased with proximity to the actors, so their
conscience did kick in a little once they were faced directly with the
pain they were inflicting.
Excuse me; I have to go throw up... again.
Dave
Jacob Sewell
Captain, a sensor scan reveals that <djric...@mail.utexas.edu>
Dave Ricketts wrote:
>In article <546l8f$d...@herald.concentric.net>, J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) says:
>>Hell, you don't even have to put people under the extreme
>>psychological pressures of the Nazi regime to get them to do
>>disgusting, hideous things. All you have to do is _tell_ them to do
>>things.
[munch description of sadistic experiment]
>(incidently, this series is now considered to have an extremely questionable
> ethical basis due to the fact that the subjects were unaware of true
> nature of the experiments and that they were supposedly adversly
> psychologically affected by the experience)
Yeah, they went on to design more sadistic experiments.
Jacob Sewell -- Chancellor of the Exchequer for Palmer House
jase...@midway.uchicago.edu cse...@nckcn.com (summer)
http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/jasewell/
"Palmer: the House of World Domination. Resistance is feudal."
Rick Moen
John S. Novak, III (J...@cris.com) wrote:
: There was a wonderful (from a clinical standpoint) series of
: psychological experiements run some time ago illustrating just exactly
: that. In the experiemnts, there was a test subject, and a staff of
: supporting actors.
See "Obedience to Authority" by Stanley Milgram. ISBN 0-06-131983-X.
Milgram was the researcher.
He sucessively undercut several generations of excuses, and reasons
why his results were said to be invalid, by repeating it with
different personnel and experimental conditions. He was also
greatly astonished by the entire set of results.
I bear Milgram's experiments firmly in mind, every time someone tries
to tell me I "must" do something, that I allegedly have no other options.
A classic. Need I say it? Read "Obedience to Authority". Read it now.
--
Cheers, Long ago, there lived a creature with a
Rick Moen voice like a vacuum cleaner. We know little
ri...@hugin.imat.com about it, but we do know that it ate cats.
Mike Lawson
In article <546l8f$d...@herald.concentric.net>,
J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) writes:
>
>>(Jordan had also mentioned Asmodean, and the fact that Asmodean
>>was a child prodigy who in adulthood could never equal or come
>>to grips with what he did as a child. He always felt that if
>>he could live just a little bit longer, he could surpass what
>>musical feats he performed in the past.)
>
You know, it just occured to me that perhaps this was the reason
why Asmodean severed his own mother: Asmodean blamed her for being
pushed into being the prodigy he was, and he therefore sought
revenge after receiving the promise of immortality from TDO...
--Mike L.
Lara Beaton
so sayeth J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) :
[snippage]
>There was a wonderful (from a clinical standpoint) series of
>psychological experiements run some time ago illustrating just exactly
>that. In the experiemnts, there was a test subject, and a staff of
>supporting actors.
>The subject was told that he was an extra lab assistant, and that the
>goal of the experiment was to monitor the effects of negative
>reinforcement (in this case, pain) on learning rate.
>The actor who was pretending to be the subject was strapped into a
>chair with electrode-looking things stuck to his skin. He was given a
>list of things to memorize. Every time he made a mistake, the real
>subject of the test was to administer a shock to the actor. Each
>time, the shock would ramp up.
>The apparatus allegedly contolling the shock was even labelled as to
>what voltages it was puting out-- at the higher levels, if the test
>were real, they would very likely, almost certainly, have caused death
>by electrocution.
[snip]
>Scary, innit?
>And all this in a nice, modern, American post-war psych department of
>a university. You _don't_ need the pressures of World War II to bring
>this behaviour on.
One of the things I found interesting about this study was the fact
that the subjects balked much more quickly when the test administrator
was not in the room with them. They also went much further with the
experiment if the actor was in a different room, and the subject could
only hear the voice of the actor.
I also saw a similar study of nurses in major hospitals. They had a
guy dressed as a doctor go in and order a nurse to give a medication
to the patient. This would be a doctor the nurse had never seen
before, and the medication was a lethal dose of an experimental drug.
Than, they observed her reaction to it. In almost every case, the
nurse was more than willing to do as ordered.
========================================================================
Lara Beaton
The opinions expressed are not those of Hughes Aircraft or General
Motors, nor are they probably opinions at all.
"How many angels can dance on your head?"
Sarah Keast
<djric...@mail.utexas.edu> Dave Ricketts wrote:
>In article <546l8f$d...@herald.concentric.net>, J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) says:
[description of electric shock treatment]
[further discussion of experiment]
>Excuse me; I have to go throw up... again.
Pardon me, but I have to add that I also saw the actual footage of
some of these experiments and it was one of the sickest things I ever
saw.
Reading the descriptions of it here does not even compare to seeing
the reactions of the actual subjects of the experimant.
If anyone ever begins to feel overconfident in any innate goodness in
the human race, watch these experiments and you may change your mind
rather quickly.
I also felt like throwing up
Sarah
Dave Ricketts
In article <548mrg$f...@newsreader.wustl.edu>, ssk...@artsci.wustl.edu (Sarah Keast) says:
>
><djric...@mail.utexas.edu> Dave Ricketts wrote:
>>Excuse me; I have to go throw up... again.
>
>Pardon me, but I have to add that I also saw the actual footage of
>some of these experiments and it was one of the sickest things I ever
>saw.
Ditto
>Reading the descriptions of it here does not even compare to seeing
>the reactions of the actual subjects of the experimant.
No kidding.
Sarah Keast
J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
>In <326557...@artsci.wustl.edu> Sarah Keast <ssk...@artsci.wustl.edu> writes:
>>This reminds me: I recently heard something about the scientist who
>>went along to see the first atomic bombs dropped on Japan. His first
>>reaction was not "Oh my god, we just killed blankety blank thousand
>>people!" but "Oh my god, it worked!"
>Well, there's probably more to the story than that, because they
>pretty much knew it was going to work. There were tests done in the
>desert first, you know.
Oh, I know about the tests in the desert, but they were really
_very far_ from sure that it would actually work.
Sarah
Jazza
In article <DzGKw...@midway.uchicago.edu>, jase...@midway.uchicago.edu
(Jacob Sewell) wrote:
> Captain, a sensor scan reveals that <djric...@mail.utexas.edu>
> Dave Ricketts wrote:
>
> >In article <546l8f$d...@herald.concentric.net>, J...@cris.com (John S.
Novak, III) says:
>
> >>Hell, you don't even have to put people under the extreme
> >>psychological pressures of the Nazi regime to get them to do
> >>disgusting, hideous things. All you have to do is _tell_ them to do
> >>things.
>
> [munch description of sadistic experiment]
>
> >(incidently, this series is now considered to have an extremely questionable
> > ethical basis due to the fact that the subjects were unaware of true
> > nature of the experiments and that they were supposedly adversly
> > psychologically affected by the experience)
>
> Yeah, they went on to design more sadistic experiments.
They designed them, but the problem is that with the ethics committees
these days, its impossible to get any decent sort of psychological
experiment done. (sigh). They won't even let us use electric shock on
rats these days...
Oh for the good old days.
Jazza
> <djric...@mail.utexas.edu> Dave Ricketts wrote:
>
> >In article <546l8f$d...@herald.concentric.net>, J...@cris.com (John S.
Novak, III) says:
>
> [description of electric shock treatment]
>
> [further discussion of experiment]
>
> >Excuse me; I have to go throw up... again.
>
> Pardon me, but I have to add that I also saw the actual footage of
> some of these experiments and it was one of the sickest things I ever
> saw.
>
> Reading the descriptions of it here does not even compare to seeing
> the reactions of the actual subjects of the experimant.
>
> If anyone ever begins to feel overconfident in any innate goodness in
> the human race, watch these experiments and you may change your mind
> rather quickly.
>
> I also felt like throwing up
Its sickening, but there is one *small* glimmer of hope. Most of the
subjects who resisted were ones who were company directors, managers etc
who were *used* to thinking about what they were doing. People who worked
in jobs where they were expected to do just as they were told usually did
it. They didn't enjoy it, but they did it. It seems that people who are
trained to question and think about what they are carrying out are more
likely to resist...
John S. Novak, III
>>what voltages it was puting out-- at the higher levels, if the test
>>were real, they would very likely, almost certainly, have caused death
>>by electrocution.
>The highest voltages were even labeled as "XXX - potentially lethal" etc.
Were they? Okay. Being an EE, all I remembered were the numbers, and
thinking, "Well, fuck, there's no way I'd put my hand on those
electrodes!"
>>And all this in a nice, modern, American post-war psych department of
>>a university. You _don't_ need the pressures of World War II to bring
>>this behaviour on.
>(incidently, this series is now considered to have an extremely questionable
> ethical basis due to the fact that the subjects were unaware of true
> nature of the experiments and that they were supposedly adversly
> psychologically affected by the experience)
Well it's pretty hard to have an unbiased test on this without
completely hoodwinking the test subjects. If you just told people the
point of the test, you'd probably have at least 99% of the subjects
say, "Oh, of course I won't go on with this!"
> If you're referring to the Milgrim experiments of the 1960's,
Sounds about right.
I no longer have the book from which I read the detailed experimental
record. If I could remember the damned title of the book, I'd have
posted it.
> Actually, several of the subjects did refuse to continue when it
>became apparent that the dosage was getting dangerous, but it was some
>disgusting figure like 35% on average.
I sit corrected. I thought sure it was either significantly lower
than that, or just plain old zero. That number may have been
associated with a particular painful but not lethal voltage level,
though.
John S. Novak, III
>See "Obedience to Authority" by Stanley Milgram. ISBN 0-06-131983-X.
>Milgram was the researcher.
_Bing_!
That's the book.
I could _not_ dredge that up from my memory.
>He sucessively undercut several generations of excuses, and reasons
>why his results were said to be invalid, by repeating it with
>different personnel and experimental conditions. He was also
>greatly astonished by the entire set of results.
He was disgusted, as I seem to recall. Or at the very least,
dismayed.
>I bear Milgram's experiments firmly in mind, every time someone tries
>to tell me I "must" do something, that I allegedly have no other options.
But Rick, it's for the chilllldrun.
Dave Ricketts
In article <54bjcv$v...@herald.concentric.net>, J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) says:
>
>In <54779n$h...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <djric...@mail.utexas.edu> Dave Ricketts writes:
>>>what voltages it was puting out-- at the higher levels, if the test
>>>were real, they would very likely, almost certainly, have caused death
>>>by electrocution.
>>The highest voltages were even labeled as "XXX - potentially lethal" etc.
Something like that anyway.
>
>Were they? Okay. Being an EE, all I remembered were the numbers, and
>thinking, "Well, fuck, there's no way I'd put my hand on those
>electrodes!"
>>>And all this in a nice, modern, American post-war psych department of
>>>a university. You _don't_ need the pressures of World War II to bring
>>>this behaviour on.
>>(incidently, this series is now considered to have an extremely questionable
>> ethical basis due to the fact that the subjects were unaware of true
>> nature of the experiments and that they were supposedly adversly
>> psychologically affected by the experience)
>Well it's pretty hard to have an unbiased test on this without
>completely hoodwinking the test subjects. If you just told people the
>point of the test, you'd probably have at least 99% of the subjects
>say, "Oh, of course I won't go on with this!"
>
>> If you're referring to the Milgrim experiments of the 1960's,
Oops, sorry, that's Milgram.
^
>> Actually, several of the subjects did refuse to continue when it
>>became apparent that the dosage was getting dangerous, but it was some
>>disgusting figure like 35% on average.
>
>I sit corrected. I thought sure it was either significantly lower
>than that, or just plain old zero. That number may have been
>associated with a particular painful but not lethal voltage level,
>though.
Well, that's the average taken throughout the entire range of experimental
conditions, I believe. The one where they were in different rooms probably
*was* something very close to zero. Btw, I didn't read the book, just saw
a bunch of the footage, which is about 10x more sickening.
Dave
Rick Moen
John S. Novak, III (J...@cris.com) wrote:
[Stanley Milgram]
: He was disgusted, as I seem to recall. Or at the very least,
: dismayed.
Well, ja. Then-recent history was fresher in some people's minds than
in others'. Ironies were observable in all directions.
: >I bear Milgram's experiments firmly in mind, every time someone tries
: >to tell me I "must" do something, that I allegedly have no other options.
: But Rick, it's for the chilllldrun.
...and for everyone else's own good. Of course.
John S. Novak, III
>Well, ja. Then-recent history was fresher in some people's minds than
>in others'. Ironies were observable in all directions.
They still are.
It hasn't been _that_ long.
>: But Rick, it's for the chilllldrun.
>...and for everyone else's own good. Of course.
Are you saying that you don't care about the Children, Citizen?
Rick Moen
John S. Novak, III (J...@cris.com) wrote:
: >: But Rick, it's for the chilllldrun.
: >...and for everyone else's own good. Of course.
: Are you saying that you don't care about the Children, Citizen?
Well, nooooo. Children are probably just fine -- with a suitable
white wine sauce. (I just spent time with my brat nephew;
a vividly grim demonstration of the perils of procreation).
--
Cheers, Long ago, there lived a creature with a
Rick Moen voice like a vacuum cleaner. We know little
ri...@hugin.imat.com about it, but we do know that it ate cats.
(Does that make me alliterate?)
Tshen
Rick Moen (ri...@hugin.imat.com) wrote:
: John S. Novak, III (J...@cris.com) wrote:
: : Are you saying that you don't care about the Children, Citizen?
: Well, nooooo. Children are probably just fine -- with a suitable
: white wine sauce. (I just spent time with my brat nephew;
: a vividly grim demonstration of the perils of procreation).
Two words that can change your life: Snip, snip.
They changed mine!
"Hmm. That stitch just hasn't dissolved yet...but I'm _really_ nervous
about picking it out..."
--Tshen
Qodaxti Institute, 87th stratum
P. Korda
In article <326557...@artsci.wustl.edu>,
Sarah Keast <ssk...@artsci.wustl.edu> wrote:
>This reminds me: I recently heard something about the scientist who
>went along to see the first atomic bombs dropped on Japan. His first
>reaction was not "Oh my god, we just killed blankety blank thousand
>people!" but "Oh my god, it worked!"
Nonononono. They don't send expensive scientists along on missions to
drop bombs on people. They could get hurt!
"Oh my god, it worked!" is supposedly what Oppenheimer REALLY said
when they tested the bomb, and it worked. "I am become death,
destroyer of worlds" came later.
By the time they dropped it on a population center, they knew it would
work.
>I'm not even sure that stereotype is that rare in reality. I've met a
Hey, you calling me a mad scientist?
--pam
"It's alive...IT'S ALIVE!!!"
Bryon Wasserman
J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
>In <326557...@artsci.wustl.edu> Sarah Keast
>Well, there's probably more to the story than that, because they
>pretty much knew it was going to work. There were tests done in the
>desert first, you know.
Are you sure?I seem to recall from Gleick's book on Feynman that many
were quite surprised that it worked .
Bryon Wasserman
b...@mps.ohio-state.edu
http://www-physics.mps.ohio-state.edu/~btw/home.html
Bonehead
In article <54prtl$4...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
wasser...@osu.edu (Bryon Wasserman) wrote:
}J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
}
}>Well, there's probably more to the story than that, because they
}>pretty much knew it was going to work. There were tests done in the
}>desert first, you know.
}
}Are you sure?I seem to recall from Gleick's book on Feynman that many
}were quite surprised that it worked .
There were definately tests in the desert. Unless they did something
incredibly dumb like testing a model different than the one they dropped
on Japan, they should have known it would work.
ObAside: One of my friends here appears to have a couple of grandparents
who were caught at Nagasaki, or so I've inferred from a few comments he's
made. A rather weird feeling, to be sure.
--
Dylan Alexander
dy...@tamu.edu
Andrea Lynn Leistra
In article <54prtl$4...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>>Well, there's probably more to the story than that, because they
>>pretty much knew it was going to work. There were tests done in the
>>desert first, you know.
>Are you sure?I seem to recall from Gleick's book on Feynman that many
>were quite surprised that it worked .
They, or at least some of 'they', were surprised when it worked *in the
desert tests*. The whole Los Alamos thing, or did you skip that section
in the Feynman bio?
You honestly thought they dropped the bomb on Hiroshima without *testing*
one first?
--
Andrea Leistra http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~aleistra
-----
Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts.
Sarah Keast
alei...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Andrea Lynn Leistra) wrote:
>Bryon Wasserman <wasser...@osu.edu> wrote:
>>J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
>>>Well, there's probably more to the story than that, because they
>>>pretty much knew it was going to work. There were tests done in the
>>>desert first, you know.
>>Are you sure?I seem to recall from Gleick's book on Feynman that many
>>were quite surprised that it worked .
>They, or at least some of 'they', were surprised when it worked *in the
>desert tests*. The whole Los Alamos thing, or did you skip that section
>in the Feynman bio?
>You honestly thought they dropped the bomb on Hiroshima without *testing*
>one first?
I'll answer since I had a similar post to this (though I have not read
any book-- so I can't say anything about him skipping sections).
No. No. No. Obviously no. (Though I can't speak for Bryon
Wasserman so emphatically since I don't know him or what he thinks).
But I certainly don't think anybody was saying that they dropped the
bomb without testing-- that would be absurd. But I was under the
impression for various reasons that despite the desert tests there
were people who weren't sure it would work.
Since you so confidently say this is not the case, I am inclined to
believe you, but I don't really know because the person who told me
the opposite was confident as well and knowledgeable in the field.
Sarah Keast
Washington University in St. Louis
ssk...@artsci.wustl.edu
Kurt Montandon
aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Aaron Bergman) wrote:
<snip>
>that Enrico Fermi was taking side bets as to whether or not they would
>incinerate the state of New Mexico, however. They were worried for a bit
>that they might ignite the atmosphere as I understand it.
That reminds of some idiotic litte book I read, about a nuclear test
that _did_ set the atmosphere on fire. I can't remember the title, I
think it was something like "The Atlas Project." It was a conspiracy
book that was one big flashback, but I got a good laugh out of it.
Even though it wasn't supposed to be funny.
Does anyone know what book I'm talking about?
Kurt Montandon
kmmon...@ucdavis.edu
www.geocities.com/Area51/2747/index.html
----
"There's a little black spot on the sun today -"
. . . oh wait, that's just the _saa_ in my eyes. . .
Mark Loy
In article <54kn5m$5...@myrddin.imat.com>, ri...@hugin.imat.com (Rick Moen)
wrote:
> John S. Novak, III (J...@cris.com) wrote:
>
> : >: But Rick, it's for the chilllldrun.
> : >...and for everyone else's own good. Of course.
>
> : Are you saying that you don't care about the Children, Citizen?
>
> Well, nooooo. Children are probably just fine -- with a suitable
> white wine sauce. (I just spent time with my brat nephew;
> a vividly grim demonstration of the perils of procreation).
Ahhh...but this is the problem.
A lot of very intelligent people on this forum talk about having children
as if the very thought renders them impotent or they want to superglue
their "cootchy-coo" shut.
But right this very moment, in the backseat of an '83 Chevette, a couple of
people with a _combined_ IQ less than the least intelligent poster on
rasfwrj, are busy making yet another baby--at least their fourth and
probably their fifth or sixth little tax deduction.
So...people who are at the upper end of the IQ genetic pool are deciding,
after careful examination of the facts and determining each and every pro
and con, extensively comparing them against cost/benefit models and
calculating the risks and weighing the ultimate advantages, these people
are deciding to give procreation a pass.
But the poeple at the other extreme, without comparing anything other than
the size of Mary Lou's jugs and whether or not they can finish before Wheel
of Fortune comes on, are banging out babies by the score.
The inevitable result of this is that the average human intelligence is
moving more toward Chimpanzee than it is toward Krell[1]. With potentially
disasterous implications for the future of humanity.
Why...the best that our descendants might be able to hope for is to fully
comprehend the intricacies associated with burping Tupperware, pumping
their own gas, and removing unwanted earwax with the aid of a Sears
Wet-n-Dry Shopvac.
It don't mean too much to guys like me. I've had my place in the sun. I'm
on the downhill slide into that long goodnight.
But some of you...why you're just finding out that there's a whole big
world out there to frolic unabashadly in. Hell, bashadly, if you prefer.
But what happens when you grow old? Me...I got you schmucks...er, um...you
intelligent, trustworthy types to take care of my grizzled ol' ass. But
you...you have to look forward to Bubba's and Mary Lou's spawn to keep your
ass from freezing right off. The service industries will be inundated with
them.
Kinda makes you want to procreate right this very minute, don't it, just to
even up the odds a tad and maybe raise that IQ curve up above the level of
Madonna.
Think about it.
ML
[1] Race of super-intelligent sentient creatures in the science fiction
classic movie _Forbidden Planet_
(Yeah! Another post with a footnote!)
Sarah Keast
wasser...@osu.edu (Bryon Wasserman) wrote:
>J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
>>Well, there's probably more to the story than that, because they
>>pretty much knew it was going to work. There were tests done in the
>>desert first, you know.
>Are you sure?I seem to recall from Gleick's book on Feynman that many
>were quite surprised that it worked .
1st: You shouldn't have left my name in the attributes since you
didn't quote anything of mine and I get easily confused by stuff like
that. I sit here thinking, 'Did I type that? No...couldn't be...but
maybe...' Until I finally look at the number of '>>>' and realize how
silly I am.
Second: I said something similar in reply to that post and somebody
else told me I was wrong. So I began to doubt me source (what do
these crazy PhDs know anyway). So really, I am no longer sure of the
answer, but I was under the impression that, no, they were not all
that sure it would really work in a real situation.
Third: Not that it matters in the slightest, really.
Aaron Bergman
In article <dylan-25109...@news.tamu.edu>, dy...@tamu.edu
(Bonehead) wrote:
:
:There were definately tests in the desert. Unless they did something
:incredibly dumb like testing a model different than the one they dropped
:on Japan, they should have known it would work.
There were tests in the desert. In fact, there's a story that at one
point, one of the bombs on top of the tower didn't explode and someone had
to climb up the tower to see what was wrong with it. The first explosion,
I believe, (trinity) was at Almagordo. There was a pool on what would be
the yield of the first explosion. Some people were alarmed to find out
that Enrico Fermi was taking side bets as to whether or not they would
incinerate the state of New Mexico, however. They were worried for a bit
that they might ignite the atmosphere as I understand it.
Aaron
--
Aaron Bergman -- aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu
<http://pantheon.yale.edu/~abergman/>
Smoke a cigarette. Slit your throat. Same concept.
Aaron Bergman
In article <54prtl$4...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
wasser...@osu.edu (Bryon Wasserman) wrote:
:J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
:
:>In <326557...@artsci.wustl.edu> Sarah Keast
:
:>Well, there's probably more to the story than that, because they
:>pretty much knew it was going to work. There were tests done in the
:>desert first, you know.
:
:Are you sure?I seem to recall from Gleick's book on Feynman that many
:were quite surprised that it worked .
That was the people on board the Enola Gay. I believe that they were a bit
surprised.
Sarah Keast
jlau...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (Jazza) wrote:
>In article <dylan-25109...@news.tamu.edu>, dy...@tamu.edu
>(Bonehead) wrote:
>> wasser...@osu.edu (Bryon Wasserman) wrote:
>> }J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
>> }>Well, there's probably more to the story than that, because they
>> }>pretty much knew it was going to work. There were tests done in the
>> }>desert first, you know.
>> }Are you sure?I seem to recall from Gleick's book on Feynman that many
>> }were quite surprised that it worked .
>> There were definately tests in the desert. Unless they did something
>> incredibly dumb like testing a model different than the one they dropped
>> on Japan, they should have known it would work.
>Then they did something incredibly dumb, since the bomb they dropped on
>Hiroshima *was* a different model to the ones tested in the desert. The
>Hiroshima bomb used Uranium-235, the ones they tested in the desert (and
>the one dropped on Nagasaki) used Plutonium.
Well, if that is right:
Ha! I knew what I was talking about (sort of).
If not:
Nevermind all.
Jay Pasquantonio
Tshen wrote:> : : Are you saying that you don't care about the Children, Citizen?
> : Well, nooooo. Children are probably just fine -- with a suitable
> : white wine sauce. (I just spent time with my brat nephew;
> : a vividly grim demonstration of the perils of procreation).
A la Swift's "A Modest Proposal". I think he suggested a gulash, though.
>
> Two words that can change your life: Snip, snip.
> They changed mine!
>
> "Hmm. That stitch just hasn't dissolved yet...but I'm _really_ nervous
> about picking it out..."
Tshen, you have entered a realm called "do not go there".
And as long as it's been a week, removing even dissolvable stitches is
ok. The body knits fast when the skin is actively held together. That's
why even staples work.
Jay Pasquantonio
(returning to the land of "don't go there")
Tshen
Jay Pasquantonio (j...@med1.med.tu-muenchen.de) wrote:
: Tshen wrote:
: > Two words that can change your life: Snip, snip.
: > They changed mine!
: > "Hmm. That stitch just hasn't dissolved yet...but I'm _really_ nervous
: > about picking it out..."
: Tshen, you have entered a realm called "do not go there".
Wouldn't ya know? "Do not go there" is one of my fave places to visit.
: And as long as it's been a week, removing even dissolvable stitches is
: ok. The body knits fast when the skin is actively held together. That's
: why even staples work.
<cringing, thinking about using staples *right* *there*>
Actually, my concern at the time was not that the flesh would part and
that all the goodies would slop onto the floor. The concern was that it
had been about six weeks, and a few strategically placed stitches were
_still_ hanging around. That is the _last_ place I would want festering,
rotted, infected stitches.
Hope I didn't ruin anybody's lunch.
(Mmm! Spaghetti and meat balls!)
Jazza
> In article <54prtl$4...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
Karl-Johan Noren
In article <54rdt8$n...@newsreader.wustl.edu>
ssk...@artsci.wustl.edu (Sarah Keast) writes:
> >J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
> >
> >>Well, there's probably more to the story than that, because they
> >>pretty much knew it was going to work. There were tests done in the
> >>desert first, you know.
>
> Second: I said something similar in reply to that post and somebody
> else told me I was wrong. So I began to doubt me source (what do
> these crazy PhDs know anyway). So really, I am no longer sure of the
> answer, but I was under the impression that, no, they were not all
> that sure it would really work in a real situation.
Well, in a way everybody's right.
The uran-based bomb (that was dropped over Hiroshima) was
never tested - they _knew_ it would work.
The plutoniom-based bomb (tested somewhere in the American
outbacks [New Mexico?] and dropped over Nagasaki) was
tested, because they thought it would work, but wasn't sure.
All IIRC and AFAIK, of course.
--
Karl-Johan Norén (Noren with acute e) -- k-j-...@dsv.su.se
http://www.dsv.su.se/~k-j-nore/
- To believe people are as stupid as one believes is
stupider than one can believe
Dean Lenort
ml...@indyvax.iupui.edu (Mark Loy) wrote:
>So...people who are at the upper end of the IQ genetic pool are deciding,
>after careful examination of the facts and determining each and every pro
>and con, extensively comparing them against cost/benefit models and
>calculating the risks and weighing the ultimate advantages, these people
>are deciding to give procreation a pass.
>
>But the poeple at the other extreme, without comparing anything other than
>the size of Mary Lou's jugs and whether or not they can finish before Wheel
>of Fortune comes on, are banging out babies by the score.
>
>The inevitable result of this is that the average human intelligence is
>moving more toward Chimpanzee than it is toward Krell[1]. With potentially
>disasterous implications for the future of humanity.
>
For more in this vein read _The Little Black Bag_, by C.M. Kornbluth.
A short story originally published in '50.
Dean
Dean Lenort
kmmon...@ucdavis.edu (Kurt Montandon) wrote:
>That reminds of some idiotic litte book I read, about a nuclear test
>that _did_ set the atmosphere on fire. I can't remember the title, I
>think it was something like "The Atlas Project." It was a conspiracy
>book that was one big flashback, but I got a good laugh out of it.
>Even though it wasn't supposed to be funny.
>
>Does anyone know what book I'm talking about?
>
There's a short story called _Adam and No Eve_ by Alfred Bester that
covers this story line. I would hazard to guess that there are many
variations of this theme.
Dean
Bryon Wasserman
dy...@tamu.edu (Bonehead) wrote:
>In article <54prtl$4...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>wasser...@osu.edu (Bryon Wasserman) wrote:
>
>}J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
>}
>}>Well, there's probably more to the story than that, because they
>}>pretty much knew it was going to work. There were tests done in the
>}>desert first, you know.
>}
>}Are you sure?I seem to recall from Gleick's book on Feynman that many
>}were quite surprised that it worked .
>
>There were definately tests in the desert. Unless they did something
>incredibly dumb like testing a model different than the one they dropped
>on Japan, they should have known it would work.
>
I wasn't questioning that there were tests, only tht they were sure
what would occur. And I know that that doesn't make any sense, but I
thought that I had read it somewhere. I'm probably misremembering what
I read.
Bryon Wasserman
ssk...@artsci.wustl.edu (Sarah Keast) wrote:
>1st: You shouldn't have left my name in the attributes since you
>didn't quote anything of mine and I get easily confused by stuff like
>that. I sit here thinking, 'Did I type that? No...couldn't be...but
>maybe...' Until I finally look at the number of '>>>' and realize how
>silly I am.
Actually, the post that John was responding to was yours(or at least I
presumed as much from the line in John's post that said
"Sarah Keast <ssk...@artsci.wustl.edu> writes:"
If you were misquoted then I apologive, but I was only quoting John's
post which quoted you.
Bryon Wasserman
alei...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Andrea Lynn Leistra) wrote:
>>Are you sure?I seem to recall from Gleick's book on Feynman that many
>>were quite surprised that it worked .
>
>They, or at least some of 'they', were surprised when it worked *in the
>desert tests*. The whole Los Alamos thing, or did you skip that section
>in the Feynman bio?
>
>You honestly thought they dropped the bomb on Hiroshima without *testing*
>one first?
I wasn't questioning his statement that they tested it, only that
they knew for certain what was going to happen. And yes, I know that
it would seem to follow that if they had tested it that they would
know what was going to happen. However, I can't seem to escape the
feeling that I read somewhere(I presumed that it was in "Genius" since
it had more on the topic than anything else that I've read) that may
of the physicists involved in the project were very surpirsed by how
well it worked.
Jay Pasquantonio
Tshen wrote:
>
> Jay Pasquantonio (j...@med1.med.tu-muenchen.de) wrote:
>
> : And as long as it's been a week, removing even dissolvable stitches > > is ok. The body knits fast when the skin is actively held together. > > That's why even staples work.
>
> <cringing, thinking about using staples *right* *there*>
>
> Actually, my concern at the time was not that the flesh would part and
> that all the goodies would slop onto the floor. The concern was that
> it had been about six weeks, and a few strategically placed stitches
> were _still_ hanging around. That is the _last_ place I would want
> festering, rotted, infected stitches.
Are you sure they were supposed to dissolve, or did you forget an
appointment to get them removed? If they don't look infected in any way,
then you can pull them yourself if you are careful. The most important
reason physicians ask you to return to have stitches removed is to check
things out in a general way, not because it takes a four-year
professional degree to remove stitches. If it does look infected in any
way, _run_ to the nearest physician (or, since you are in Montana and
practitioners can be few and far between there, drive) and have them
take care of it.
As long as you kept the area clean (remember to use that Listerine!) it
should be fine. Then again, I'm just an engineer with an interest in
medicine, so...
>
> Hope I didn't ruin anybody's lunch.
> (Mmm! Spaghetti and meat balls!)
"How'd you like a nice, greasy, pork sandwich, served on a dirty
ashtray?"
Jay "Chet" Pasquatonio
Johan Magnusson
In article <mloy-251...@134.68.134.43>, ml...@indyvax.iupui.edu says...
>The inevitable result of this is that the average human intelligence is
>moving more toward Chimpanzee than it is toward Krell[1]. With potentially
>disasterous implications for the future of humanity.
>[1] Race of super-intelligent sentient creatures in the science fiction
>classic movie _Forbidden Planet_
>
What about the Krulls?
The prun-faced aliens who are fighting the Fantastic Four in their first
adventure.
They could change their appearance.
Once they changed into Cows!!!
And I believe they could change into both badgers _and_ beavers.
Truly intellingent creatures.
Max Rebo
Rick Moen
Dean Lenort (dean....@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: For more in this vein read _The Little Black Bag_, by C.M. Kornbluth.
: A short story originally published in '50.
I believe you misspelled "The Marching Morons", by Cyril M. Kornbluth.
HTH. ;->
(Yes, "The Little Black Bag" does approach the same theme, but "The
Marching Morons" was the classical example, giving rise to numerous
interminable arguments in the '50s and '60s.)
--
Cheers, My pid is Inigo Montoya. You kill -9
Rick Moen my parent process. Prepare to vi.
ri...@hugin.imat.com
Dean Lenort
ri...@hugin.imat.com (Rick Moen) wrote:
>(Yes, "The Little Black Bag" does approach the same theme, but "The
>Marching Morons" was the classical example, giving rise to numerous
>interminable arguments in the '50s and '60s.)
>
I never knew he was in such a rut. Plagarized himself, did he?
Dean
St Erroneous
[I might join the campaign for relevant subject headers - tremble]
In article <3271c...@calliope.wln.com>, Tshen <tshe...@rs6a.wln.com> wrote:
><cringing, thinking about using staples *right* *there*>
You have heard that particular bizarre-but-true net.folklore havn't you?
Editted highlights for those who havn't:
Conveyor belt and industrial worker
Rampant solo passion session with conveyor belt
Unfortunate accident with jammed conveyor belt
Nasty rip *right* *there* solved with staple gun
Later, a visit to a hospital with festering rotted *right* *there*
>(Mmm! Spaghetti and meat balls!)
*chompchompchomp*
Feed 'em to me, big boy.
>--Tshen
-michael (mainly)
--
- http://goliath.mersinet.co.uk/~ishamael/ - isha...@goliath.mersinet.co.uk
"Was there a category of insurance for having your boat stolen by an undead
sorceror while the owner was away attending a demon-inspired posse? If so,
the rate schedule must be interesting." - CoS, CSFriedman
Michael Kozlowski
In article <553ail$q...@herald.concentric.net>, MCAUTHON <R...@cris.com> wrote:
>Mark Loy wrote:
[people not having children]
>>The inevitable result of this is that the average human intelligence is
>>moving more toward Chimpanzee than it is toward Krell[1]. With potentially
>>disasterous implications for the future of humanity.
>So what? In fifty years or so I be so much fertilizer.
Yeah, but don't you care about your kids' future?
... Oh. Right. Never mind then.
--
Michael Kozlowski
President, International Weasel Information Society
kozl...@cae.wisc.edu
http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~kozlowsk/weasel.html
MCAUTHON
In article <mloy-251...@134.68.134.43>,
Mark Loy <ml...@indyvax.iupui.edu> wrote:
[munch children in white wine sauce]
>A lot of very intelligent people on this forum talk about having children
>as if the very thought renders them impotent or they want to superglue
>their "cootchy-coo" shut.
Hey, sex is one thing. But that whole reproduction business....Blech!
>But right this very moment, in the backseat of an '83 Chevette, a couple of
>people with a _combined_ IQ less than the least intelligent poster on
>rasfwrj, are busy making yet another baby--at least their fourth and
>probably their fifth or sixth little tax deduction.
More power to 'em.
>So...people who are at the upper end of the IQ genetic pool are deciding,
>after careful examination of the facts and determining each and every pro
>and con, extensively comparing them against cost/benefit models and
>calculating the risks and weighing the ultimate advantages, these people
>are deciding to give procreation a pass.
Yes. All you have to do is observe parent and todler at the mall.
It sure looks like Hell to me.
>But the poeple at the other extreme, without comparing anything other than
>the size of Mary Lou's jugs and whether or not they can finish before Wheel
>of Fortune comes on, are banging out babies by the score.
Just another reason to require parental wannabes to obtain a license.
>The inevitable result of this is that the average human intelligence is
>moving more toward Chimpanzee than it is toward Krell[1]. With potentially
>disasterous implications for the future of humanity.
>
>Why...the best that our descendants might be able to hope for is to fully
>comprehend the intricacies associated with burping Tupperware, pumping
>their own gas, and removing unwanted earwax with the aid of a Sears
>Wet-n-Dry Shopvac.
So what? In fifty years or so I be so much fertilizer.
>It don't mean too much to guys like me. I've had my place in the sun. I'm
>on the downhill slide into that long goodnight.
>But some of you...why you're just finding out that there's a whole big
>world out there to frolic unabashadly in. Hell, bashadly, if you prefer.
>
>But what happens when you grow old? Me...I got you schmucks...er, um...you
>intelligent, trustworthy types to take care of my grizzled ol' ass. But
>you...you have to look forward to Bubba's and Mary Lou's spawn to keep your
>ass from freezing right off. The service industries will be inundated with
>them.
The service industries already are inundated with them.
Myself, I plan on running for office. My platform? Bread and Circuses.
>Kinda makes you want to procreate right this very minute, don't it, just to
>even up the odds a tad and maybe raise that IQ curve up above the level of
>Madonna.
Like a virgin...
-------------------------------------------
Richard K Bollinger
Formerly Grrrr...E Bianco.
Bite me Dylan!
Troy N. Terry
Jay Pasquantonio wrote:
>
> Tshen wrote:
> >
[Shnip]
> >
> > Actually, my concern at the time was not that the flesh would part and
> > that all the goodies would slop onto the floor. The concern was that
> > it had been about six weeks, and a few strategically placed stitches
> > were _still_ hanging around. That is the _last_ place I would want
> > festering, rotted, infected stitches.
>
> Are you sure they were supposed to dissolve, or did you forget an
> appointment to get them removed? If they don't look infected in any way,
> then you can pull them yourself if you are careful. [...]
The Sly Stallone School of Applied Medicine?
Carrying on your life and general campaign against the
Shadow with a festering, never-quite-healed wound in
your side may be alright for the Dragon Reborn, but
with all respect, I doubt Tshen is up to that level
just yet (after all, he _is_ only 87th Stratum).
Much better that he seek out the trained Healing arts
of our Age. Above all, don't seek out an older woman
with a young face -- while such women may actually be
"Servants of All" in some sense, it's probably not the
one you need.
> The most important
> reason physicians ask you to return to have stitches removed is to check
> things out in a general way, not because it takes a four-year
> professional degree to remove stitches. If it does look infected in any
> way, _run_ to the nearest physician (or, since you are in Montana and
> practitioners can be few and far between there, drive) and have them
> take care of it.
Don't listen to him, Tshen! He'll probably also tell
you he can protect you from the Taint, but then, so
can RightGuard.
The brave men and women of modern medicine will probably
seem like capering witchdoctors to our descendants, but
our tribal norms demand that they be respected, listened
to, and paid in full and on time (lest they reposess their
work). Huddle safely under the mighty Blue Shield of
Succour!
> As long as you kept the area clean (remember to use that Listerine!) it
> should be fine. Then again, I'm just an engineer with an interest in
> medicine, so...
>
I thought Listerine was a mouthwash, or perhaps a
table-cleaner. You could probably cauterize your
wounds with napalm also, but I dinna recommend it.
Sheesh! Seek true healing, or at least, Pevin-like,
die a hero.
Yours,
T. Terry
Jacob Sewell
And yea, on 25 Oct 96 17:29:28 -0500, the mighty one, whom men
call "ml...@indyvax.iupui.edu (Mark Loy)" thus spake:
>Ahhh...but this is the problem.
>
>A lot of very intelligent people on this forum talk about having children
>as if the very thought renders them impotent or they want to superglue
>their "cootchy-coo" shut.
>
>But right this very moment, in the backseat of an '83 Chevette, a couple of
>people with a _combined_ IQ less than the least intelligent poster on
>rasfwrj, are busy making yet another baby--at least their fourth and
>probably their fifth or sixth little tax deduction.
[much the rest...]
I thought that this post was very insightful, yet still
incredibly funny... in other words, it was a Loy post. Anyway, I
forwarded it to a couple friends, and one of them wrote back the
following. But first, bear in mind that he was trying to also be
funny (even if he didn't realize that Mark was, also). And at
any rate, _please don't email him about this_!
Anyway, here goes:
>Well, I guess he's right, but he could also just be a stupid old man who
>finds things that are different scary and therefore sees the next
>generation as "stupid." Actually he's probably right, but it's nothing
>new. Of course each successive generation is dumber; because his
>generation was proportionately lazier and could not teach their younguns
>"sometimes Tab A shouldn't go into Slot B, even if it feels good." It
>seems pointless to whine about it, if he doesn't want to do anything about
>it. That's the problem with these middle aged, generally conservative
>sci-fi/ fantasy fans; they just bitch and moan about all this stuff,
>escape into a little alternate universe and then do nothing. At least
>when us normal folk whine about stuff instead of doing anything, we aren't
>reading crap serializations by hack authors. ;)
>Anyway, it's really not all that striking a statement, which is why we
>should enslave or castrate the stupid and the fantasy readers of the
>world. But seriously, which would work better, chemical or surgical?
>Actually, I do have a complaint about the facts of this guys letter, which
>may have been brought up on rasfwrj. Despite his hatred of the
>huddled inbreds of this country, popping out a few dozen per lifetime, we
>really have little to worry about from the good ol' US of A on the
>overcrowding issue. The places we really have to concern ourselves with are
>places like India and S. Asia, Africa and, in some part, S. America.
>While he may not like Earl and Edna's kids, in these places they can't
>"jump to their left" with out dropping smack dab on some little kid. In
>these places, birth control means you've served less then McDonalds, in
>these places, the barrier method means you wall your daughter up in order
>to keep the boys away away. In these places, female circumcision is not
>uncommon (a serious one).
>So despite his thoughts about the corruption of America's intelligence, he
>really has no to blame but himself. Therefore, I say we should all go to
>his house with torches and pitchforks and chase him until he plummets from
>a cliff. But, I don't know if I could organize something like that. I was
>a product of the public education system.
>Jeez, I don't know why I took that personally. I guess I just don't like
>it when others ore cynical.
>Anyway, I think that we would just be better off if everyone was gay.
>That way, due to the extra effort I would take to conceive all children
>would be wanted and taken care of, and it would very easy to hit ZPG. And
>everyone would be so much more fashionable, with better hair. What a
>renaissance!
>SEAN
>Keep your filthy hands off my homepage,
>http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/scdempse
>"I am the girl who wanted to be god."--the Manics
>"What up on the socialist tip?"
Jacob Sewell -- Chancellor of the Exchequer for Palmer House
jase...@midway.uchicago.edu cse...@nckcn.com (summer)
http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/jasewell/
"Palmer: the House of World Domination. Resistance is feudal."
Gwydion
johan.m...@mbox307.swipnet.se (Johan Magnusson) wrote:
>In article <mloy-251...@134.68.134.43>, ml...@indyvax.iupui.edu says...
>
>>The inevitable result of this is that the average human intelligence is
>>moving more toward Chimpanzee than it is toward Krell[1]. With potentially
>>disasterous implications for the future of humanity.
>
>>[1] Race of super-intelligent sentient creatures in the science fiction
>>classic movie _Forbidden Planet_
>What about the Krulls?
OBAnal: *S*krulls. With an S. Krull was a semi-decent fantasy movie
from the early Eighties.
>
>The prun-faced aliens who are fighting the Fantastic Four in their first
>adventure.
>
>They could change their appearance.
>Once they changed into Cows!!!
And later made into hamburger by unsuspecting McD proprietors
unleashing the horror of...
"The Skrull-Kill Krew".
<shudder>
Gwydion
Come Visit Harry's Homepage-O-Rama:
http://don.skidmore.edu/~domalley
Hawk
In article <54tb6g$t...@mn5.swip.net>,
Johan Magnusson <johan.m...@mbox307.swipnet.se> wrote:
>What about the Krulls?
>The prun-faced aliens who are fighting the Fantastic Four in their first
>adventure.
>They could change their appearance.
>Once they changed into Cows!!!
>And I believe they could change into both badgers _and_ beavers.
>Truly intellingent creatures.
Aren't they the ones that allowed themselves to be ruled by an intelligent
computer that forced them to fight, and then massively lose to, the
Shi'ar, and now have the sadistic Deathbird as their planetary governer?
I won't call them intelligent.
Hawk
-Do not meddle in the affairs of hawks, for we are fond of raking with our
talons.
Glenn M. Frazier
Gwydion wrote:
>johan.m...@mbox307.swipnet.se (Johan Magnusson) wrote:
>>In article <mloy-251...@134.68.134.43>, ml...@indyvax.iupui.edu says...
>>>The inevitable result of this is that the average human intelligence is
>>>moving more toward Chimpanzee than it is toward Krell[1]. With potentially
>>>disasterous implications for the future of humanity.
>>
>>>[1] Race of super-intelligent sentient creatures in the science fiction
>>>classic movie _Forbidden Planet_
>
>>What about the Krulls?
>
>OBAnal: *S*krulls. With an S. Krull was a semi-decent fantasy movie
>from the early Eighties.
>>They could change their appearance.
>>Once they changed into Cows!!!
>
>And later made into hamburger by unsuspecting McD proprietors
>unleashing the horror of...
>
>"The Skrull-Kill Krew".
After which (Philadelphia Area residents will recognize this) we have
named a number of disasters, both natural and man-made (sort of...).
--
Glenn M. Frazier mailto:gl...@refinery.com
Image Refinery Productions, Inc. http://www.refinery.com
283 Second Street Pike, Suite 130 Voice: +1 (215) 634 4590
Southampton, PA 18966 U.S.A. FAX: +1 (215) 634 4591
Glenn M. Frazier
Gwydion
ha...@animal.blarg.net (Hawk) wrote:
>In article <54tb6g$t...@mn5.swip.net>,
>Johan Magnusson <johan.m...@mbox307.swipnet.se> wrote:
>
>>What about the Krulls?
>>The prun-faced aliens who are fighting the Fantastic Four in their first
>>adventure.
>>They could change their appearance.
>>Once they changed into Cows!!!
>>And I believe they could change into both badgers _and_ beavers.
>>Truly intellingent creatures.
>
>Aren't they the ones that allowed themselves to be ruled by an intelligent
>computer that forced them to fight, and then massively lose to, the
>Shi'ar, and now have the sadistic Deathbird as their planetary governer?
No, those are the Kree. You know, the ones who were devided into two
sections... the pink Kree and the blue Kree?
The Skrulls are the green ones ones with multiple chins who seem to
have had some sort of connection to the Dire Wraiths. Of course, I
think that the Shi'ar took them over as well.
>
>I won't call them intelligent.
Phhhpt. They make the Snarks look like friggin' geniuses.
John S. Novak, III
In <32782355...@saims.skidmore.edu> doma...@skidmore.edu (Gwydion) writes:
>>>What about the Krulls?
>No, those are the Kree.
Oh, knock this Krap off.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cris.com
http://cegt201.bradley.edu/~jsn/index.html
The Humblest Man on the Net
Tshen
: >>>What about the Krulls?
: >No, those are the Kree.
: Oh, knock this Krap off.
No, no. Krapov was the navigator on the Enterprise.
Richard Pistole
In article <32798...@calliope.wln.com>, tshe...@rs6a.wln.com (Tshen) wrote:
|John S. Novak, III (J...@cris.com) wrote:
|: In <32782355...@saims.skidmore.edu> doma...@skidmore.edu (Gwydion)
| writes:
|
|: >>>What about the Krulls?
|
|: >No, those are the Kree.
|
|: Oh, knock this Krap off.
|
|No, no. Krapov was the navigator on the Enterprise.
Kasparov... Isn't he that chess guy?
RHP
__
rpis...@mail.utexas.edu
http://piglet.cc.utexas.edu/~rpistole
Not James P. Blaylock.
Tshen
Richard Pistole (rpis...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
: In article <32798...@calliope.wln.com>, tshe...@rs6a.wln.com (Tshen) wrote:
: |John S. Novak, III (J...@cris.com) wrote:
: |: In <32782355...@saims.skidmore.edu> doma...@skidmore.edu (Gwydion)
: |: >>>What about the Krulls?
: |
: |: >No, those are the Kree.
: |
: |: Oh, knock this Krap off.
: |
: |No, no. Krapov was the navigator on the Enterprise.
: Kasparov... Isn't he that chess guy?
No that was Fischer.
His daughter Amy played Princess Lolita in the 70's sci-fi epic
_Buttafuoco Strikes Back_.
Jazza
In article <55c1nl$p...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, rpis...@mail.utexas.edu
(Richard Pistole) wrote:
> In article <32798...@calliope.wln.com>, tshe...@rs6a.wln.com (Tshen) wrote:
> |John S. Novak, III (J...@cris.com) wrote:
> |: In <32782355...@saims.skidmore.edu> doma...@skidmore.edu (Gwydion)
> | writes:
> |
> |: >>>What about the Krulls?
> |
> |: >No, those are the Kree.
> |
> |: Oh, knock this Krap off.
> |
> |No, no. Krapov was the navigator on the Enterprise.
>
> Kasparov... Isn't he that chess guy?
Yeah, the one who beat Karpov (who was the one who beat Korchnoi) and who
was beaten by Kaminsky.
Karl-Johan Noren
In article <32798...@calliope.wln.com>
tshe...@rs6a.wln.com (Tshen) writes:
> John S. Novak, III (J...@cris.com) wrote:
> : doma...@skidmore.edu (Gwydion) writes:
> : >>>What about the Krulls?
> : >No, those are the Kree.
> : Oh, knock this Krap off.
>
> No, no. Krapov was the navigator on the Enterprise.
This thread is Kaputt.
John S. Novak, III
>> |: >>>What about the Krulls?
>> |: >No, those are the Kree.
>> |: Oh, knock this Krap off.
>> |No, no. Krapov was the navigator on the Enterprise.
>> Kasparov... Isn't he that chess guy?
>No, Kasparov is a friendly supernatural spirit that haunts
>lonely Russian children who don't fit in.
I thought Kasper was a _friendly_ ghost!
Michael Steeves
tshe...@rs6a.wln.com (Tshen) wrote:
> Richard Pistole (rpis...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
> : tshe...@rs6a.wln.com (Tshen) wrote:> : |: >>>What about the Krulls?
> : |: >No, those are the Kree.
> : |: Oh, knock this Krap off.
> : |No, no. Krapov was the navigator on the Enterprise.
> : Kasparov... Isn't he that chess guy?
But Tshen, they're talking about Kasparitus, the defenseman for
the Islanders (I think).
-darkelf
--
Mike Steeves mste...@tiac.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Death before dishonor / Drugs before lunch
-Aspen Gun and Drug Club
John W. Schwegler
: >> |: >>>What about the Krulls?
: >> |: >No, those are the Kree.
: >> |: Oh, knock this Krap off.
: >> |No, no. Krapov was the navigator on the Enterprise.
: >> Kasparov... Isn't he that chess guy?
: >No, Kasparov is a friendly supernatural spirit that haunts
: >lonely Russian children who don't fit in.
: I thought Kasper was a _friendly_ ghost!
No, kaspers are those little wheels on carts.
You're thinking of Kantor the Friendly Ghost.
-john
--
______________________________________________________________________________
"Genius may have its limitations, | John Schwegler
but stupidity is not thus | Temple U. Auditory Research Dept.
handicapped." | jo...@flower.aud.temple.edu
- Elbert Hubbard | (215) 707-3687 FAX 707-3650
Dave Rothgery
On 4 Nov 1996, John W. Schwegler wrote:
>John S. Novak, III (J...@cris.com) wrote:
>: In <327A34...@eventus.com> "Troy N. Terry" <tr...@eventus.com> writes:
>
>: >> |: >>>What about the Krulls?
>: >> |: >No, those are the Kree.
>: >> |: Oh, knock this Krap off.
>: >> |No, no. Krapov was the navigator on the Enterprise.
>: >> Kasparov... Isn't he that chess guy?
>
>: >No, Kasparov is a friendly supernatural spirit that haunts
>: >lonely Russian children who don't fit in.
>
>: I thought Kasper was a _friendly_ ghost!
>
>No, kaspers are those little wheels on carts.
>You're thinking of Kantor the Friendly Ghost.
>
Isn't Kantor one of Clinton's few aids from Arkansas that hasn't been
indicted? Then again, maybe he is a ghost...
Dave Rothgery dave...@wpi.edu http://www.wpi.edu/~daveroth
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"It has been said that though God cannot alter the past, historians can."
-Samuel Butler
Troy N. Terry
Dave Rothgery wrote:
>
> On 4 Nov 1996, John W. Schwegler wrote:
>
> >John S. Novak, III (J...@cris.com) wrote:
> >: In <327A34...@eventus.com> "Troy N. Terry" <tr...@eventus.com> writes:
> >
> >: >> |: >>>What about the Krulls?
> >: >> |: >No, those are the Kree.
> >: >> |: Oh, knock this Krap off.
> >: >> |No, no. Krapov was the navigator on the Enterprise.
> >: >> Kasparov... Isn't he that chess guy?
> >
> >: >No, Kasparov is a friendly supernatural spirit that haunts
> >: >lonely Russian children who don't fit in.
> >
> >: I thought Kasper was a _friendly_ ghost!
> >
> >No, kaspers are those little wheels on carts.
> >You're thinking of Kantor the Friendly Ghost.
> >
> Isn't Kantor one of Clinton's few aids from Arkansas that hasn't been
> indicted? Then again, maybe he is a ghost...
>
before it hits a gallop.
Y'all's,
T. Terry
ric...@warwick.net
: >John S. Novak, III (J...@cris.com) wrote:
: >: In <327A34...@eventus.com> "Troy N. Terry" <tr...@eventus.com>
: >: writes:
: >
: >: >> |: >>>What about the Krulls?
: >: >> |: >No, those are the Kree.
: >: >> |: Oh, knock this Krap off.
: >: >> |No, no. Krapov was the navigator on the Enterprise.
: >: >> Kasparov... Isn't he that chess guy?
: >
: >: >No, Kasparov is a friendly supernatural spirit that haunts
: >: >lonely Russian children who don't fit in.
: >
: >: I thought Kasper was a _friendly_ ghost!
: >
: >No, kaspers are those little wheels on carts.
: >You're thinking of Kantor the Friendly Ghost.
: >
: Isn't Kantor one of Clinton's few aids from Arkansas that hasn't been
: indicted? Then again, maybe he is a ghost...
No, Cantor was a mathematician who studied infinities.
Mark Loy
In article <327EA8...@eventus.com>, "Troy N. Terry" <tr...@eventus.com>
wrote:
> Wait ... I thought Kantor was how fast a horse goes
> before it hits a gallop.
>
Hit a gallop...
Man, I _hate_ it when that happens.
But that's not important now.
What _is_ important is that de kantor is over there...by de glasses.
ML
CClagett
In article <556q30$r...@animal.blarg.net>, ha...@animal.blarg.net (Hawk)
writes:
>
>In article <54tb6g$t...@mn5.swip.net>,
>Johan Magnusson <johan.m...@mbox307.swipnet.se> wrote:
>
>>What about the Krulls?
>>The prun-faced aliens who are fighting the Fantastic Four in their first
>>adventure.
>>They could change their appearance.
>>Once they changed into Cows!!!
>>And I believe they could change into both badgers _and_ beavers.
>>Truly intellingent creatures.
>
>Aren't they the ones that allowed themselves to be ruled by an
intelligent
>computer that forced them to fight, and then massively lose to, the
>Shi'ar, and now have the sadistic Deathbird as their planetary governer?
>
>I won't call them intelligent.
>
>
Actually your confusing them. It was the Skrulls (with an S at the
beginning) who were the shapechangers. The Kree were the ones who were
ruled by the computer.
Jay Pasquantonio
Damn...I've been looking for my glasses.
Jay Pasquantonio