Post-POD Issues
P. Korda
my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
new questions.
Needless to say, there be spoilers
Old things resolved:
1. The identities of Moridin, Aran'gar and Osan'gar. (Ish, Aginor, and
Balthamel, respectively)
2. Is Rand going mad, or is it just stress? (Loony tunes)
3. Are BA bound by the Oath Rod? (Yes, to different oaths)
4. Is Shaidar Haran Ishy? (No way)
5. What was up w/ Saldaea?
6. what have the Seanchan been up to?
Old questions, new evidence:
1. Taimandred
2. Dashiva/Osan'gar/Aginor
3. Who is Mesaana, in the Tower.
4. Who killed Asmodean? (Yeah, K-J, I know you think it's resolved, but
the topic is way too complex to call it "resolved" until some character
confesses.)
5. The Taint-Seals theory/curing the Taint
6. Verin
7. Is Sheriam BA?
8. Setalle Anan
9. What happenned after Moir. and lanfear fell through the door?
10. Is Aviendha knocked up?
11. Who will use Callandor? (Logain theory)
New questions/issues
1. What was up with the weirdess of the OP around Ebou Dar?
2. Cyndane's identity and how she came to be. (related to 9, above)
3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
4. Is Cadsuane's hair-thingy a ter'angreal? (minor, but it's been mentioned)
5. What exactly was that mess at the end all about, anyway? (relates to
1 & 2, above)
6. Nine Fisher-king-chess players: what, if any, significance?
7. The mystery of the Salidar Sitters.
That seems to be the state of things, to me. Commentary on various
issues to come later, when I have more time.
On a FAQ-related note, has anybody been clever enough to have noted
the page #'s of the new prophecies? (Thankfully, there were not very
many, only a few Min-visions and Eg-dreams.)
--pam
Mike Kozlowski
P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>Needless to say, there be spoilers
> 3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
Halima, I assumed.
Clue me in: What are the other alternatives.
> 4. Is Cadsuane's hair-thingy a ter'angreal? (minor, but it's been mentioned)
It's one of the fox things, like Mat has. (When wossname channels in her
presence, it's cool against her cheek -- and she purposely reaches up to
touch it, for safety.)
(Okay, so maybe "cool against her cheek" is just referring to the normal
metallic coldness. And maybe she just reached up and touched it as an
absent-minded habit. But I read it the other way.)
--
Michael Kozlowski m...@cs.wisc.edu
Recommended SF (Updated 10/9): http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~mlk/sfbooks.html
Dave Rothgery
Mike Kozlowski wrote in message <71br1a$13ra$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>...
>In article <F1Mo...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>>Needless to say, there be spoilers
>> 3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
>
>Halima, I assumed.
>
>Clue me in: What are the other alternatives.
People have suggested Delana, Alviarin, Semirhage, Mesaana, and I think a
few others.
However, it had to be a male channeler or a Forsaken, because Sherriam saw
no flows being woven, and no one else [like Egwene] noticed a lot of the OP
being used in Sherriam's tent -- i.e. whoever did it used saidin or the True
Power.
I can't see another FS is Moridin's orbit toruturing Sherriam when Halima's
right there. That leaves Mesaana, Semirhage, and Demandred (I guess Sammael
is a slim possiblity, but I've always thought he was dead.). Sherriam's
torture was rather unsophisticated, making Semirhage unlikely. Mesaana's
still in Tar Valon. Demandred is pretty unconcerned with the rebel AS,
whether he's Taim or with the Seanchan.
--
Dave Rothgery WPI CS '98 dave...@wpi.edu http://www.wpi.edu/~daveroth/
Programmer for hire, no reasonable offer refused
Karl-Johan Noren
In <F1Mo...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
FAQueen Pam Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
> my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
> new questions.
> Needless to say, there be spoilers
> 2. Dashiva/Osan'gar/Aginor
No doubt at all about this one IMAO.
> 4. Who killed Asmodean? (Yeah, K-J, I know you think it's resolved, but
> the topic is way too complex to call it "resolved" until some character
> confesses.)
Only in the meaning that Lanfear didn't do it.
> 9. What happenned after Moir. and lanfear fell through the door?
My theory is that Lanfear was killed and Moiraine was burned
out/severed. It explains the transfer of Lan's bond.
> 7. The mystery of the Salidar Sitters.
That's IMO the doing of Elaida's agents. I'll try to write up a
treatise when I get my copy of TPoD back at the same time I
try to sort out the Hall members once and for all.
--
Karl-Johan Norén (Noren with acute e) -- k-j-...@dsv.su.se
http://www.dsv.su.se/~k-j-nore/
- To believe people are as stupid as one believes is
stupider than one can believe.
Karl-Johan Noren
In <71cid3$c...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
"Dave Rothgery" <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
Here there be spoilers:
[ who beat Sheriam up?]
> However, it had to be a male channeler or a Forsaken, because Sherriam saw
> no flows being woven, and no one else [like Egwene] noticed a lot of the OP
> being used in Sherriam's tent -- i.e. whoever did it used saidin or the True
> Power.
Actually, the amount need not be that big once the shield
is in place.
Bryon Wasserman
wrote:
>Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
>my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
>new questions.
>
>Needless to say, there be spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Old things resolved:
>
>1. The identities of Moridin, Aran'gar and Osan'gar. (Ish, Aginor, and
> Balthamel, respectively)
How were the latter two resolved in PoD? We've known who the gars were
since LoC. Do we get any new information on the matter in PoD?
>2. Is Rand going mad, or is it just stress? (Loony tunes)
>3. Are BA bound by the Oath Rod? (Yes, to different oaths)
We learn this from Galina's POV in CoS , not in PoD.
>Old questions, new evidence:
>
> 1. Taimandred
Do we really get any new evidence on this front? We thought that Taim
was up to something and now we have it confirmed
> 3. Who is Mesaana, in the Tower.
What do we learn on this front? We knew from CoS that she was hidden
as a non AS and we knew that she wasn't using a disguise.
>
>New questions/issues
>
> 1. What was up with the weirdess of the OP around Ebou Dar?
It was the bowl. The effect that Dashiva notes with his ward precisely
matches one of the problems that Elayne had before the gate exploded.
>On a FAQ-related note, has anybody been clever enough to have noted
>the page #'s of the new prophecies? (Thankfully, there were not very
>many, only a few Min-visions and Eg-dreams.)
Min's visions run from 559 to 562.
Bryon Wasserman
wass...@law.georgetown.edu.removetoreply
" Ahh It's the Rapture! Quick get Bart out of
the house before God comes!"
Aaron Bergman
>Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
>my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
>new questions.
>
>Needless to say, there be spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Old things resolved:
>
>1. The identities of Moridin, Aran'gar and Osan'gar. (Ish, Aginor, and
> Balthamel, respectively)
>3. Are BA bound by the Oath Rod? (Yes, to different oaths)
>5. What was up w/ Saldaea?
Not entirely necessarily. There is still the issues of possible
fighting and where was Tenobia.
>6. what have the Seanchan been up to?
>
>Old questions, new evidence:
>
> 1. Taimandred
> 2. Dashiva/Osan'gar/Aginor
> 3. Who is Mesaana, in the Tower.
> 4. Who killed Asmodean? (Yeah, K-J, I know you think it's resolved, but
> the topic is way too complex to call it "resolved" until some character
> confesses.)
> 5. The Taint-Seals theory/curing the Taint
> 6. Verin
> 7. Is Sheriam BA?
> 8. Setalle Anan
> 9. What happenned after Moir. and lanfear fell through the door?
Latest free-association theory. Lanfear wishes to "get" Rand/Lews
Therin. Gets a new body from the Eelfinn. More free association.
Lanfear gets Lews Therin. Rand does something else.
>10. Is Aviendha knocked up?
>11. Who will use Callandor? (Logain theory)
>
>New questions/issues
>
> 1. What was up with the weirdess of the OP around Ebou Dar?
> 2. Cyndane's identity and how she came to be. (related to 9, above)
> 3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
> 4. Is Cadsuane's hair-thingy a ter'angreal? (minor, but it's been mentioned)
> 5. What exactly was that mess at the end all about, anyway? (relates to
> 1 & 2, above)
> 6. Nine Fisher-king-chess players: what, if any, significance?
> 7. The mystery of the Salidar Sitters.
8. What is Elaida's plan for taking out the Salidar Aes Sedai.
9. Why is Rand seeing double?
10. What's up with Callandor?
>
>That seems to be the state of things, to me. Commentary on various
>issues to come later, when I have more time.
>
>On a FAQ-related note, has anybody been clever enough to have noted
>the page #'s of the new prophecies? (Thankfully, there were not very
>many, only a few Min-visions and Eg-dreams.)
I started to, but they were so sparse and substance-lacking that
I stopped. I can see if I still have a couple of them written
down....
Aaron
Andrea Leistra
P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
>my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
>new questions.
>
>Needless to say, there be spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>New questions/issues
> 1. What was up with the weirdess of the OP around Ebou Dar?
> 2. Cyndane's identity and how she came to be. (related to 9, above)
> 3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
> 4. Is Cadsuane's hair-thingy a ter'angreal? (minor, but it's been mentioned)
> 5. What exactly was that mess at the end all about, anyway? (relates to
> 1 & 2, above)
> 6. Nine Fisher-king-chess players: what, if any, significance?
> 7. The mystery of the Salidar Sitters.
8. Who killed Adeleas and Ispan?
(I'll write up the case for Vandene if you want to FAQ this one;
Asra seems to be the other suspect).
--
Andrea Leistra
P. Korda
>
>> Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
>> my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
>> new questions.
>> Needless to say, there be spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>No doubt at all about this one IMAO.
Note that the thread is "Post-POD Issues," not "Post-POD Karl-Johan
Opinions." There are compelling reasons to believe Dashiva is a
Forsaken, but there are some strong problems with it, too. (Such as:
Dashiva tried to kill Rand. The Forsaken aren't supposed to do
that. The Forsaken who have been "reined in" are especially not
supposed to do that.)
>> 4. Who killed Asmodean? (Yeah, K-J, I know you think it's resolved, but
>> the topic is way too complex to call it "resolved" until some character
>> confesses.)
>
>Only in the meaning that Lanfear didn't do it.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy.
Seriously, though, if it wasn't Lanfear, it had to have been
Graendal. Even RJ couldn't stretch "obvious from the instant he died"
to refer to any character who we hadn't seen thus far in the series. I
suppose it could have been Sammael.
--pam
Devin L. Ganger
in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Mike Kozlowski wrote:
> It's one of the fox things, like Mat has. (When wossname channels in her
> presence, it's cool against her cheek -- and she purposely reaches up to
> touch it, for safety.)
>
> (Okay, so maybe "cool against her cheek" is just referring to the normal
> metallic coldness. And maybe she just reached up and touched it as an
> absent-minded habit. But I read it the other way.)
You weren't alone.
--
Devin L. Ganger <de...@premier1.net>
Chief Systems Administrator, Premier1 Internet Services, Sultan, WA, USA
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS
Mike Kozlowski
Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>Mike Kozlowski wrote in message <71br1a$13ra$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>...
ObUsenet: Spoliers definately follow.
>>> 3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
>>
>>Halima, I assumed.
>>Clue me in: What are the other alternatives.
>
>People have suggested Delana, Alviarin, Semirhage, Mesaana, and I think a
>few others.
On what basis? Halima's there, and there's no reason at all to assume
it's not her; positing anybody else seems to be needlessly
over-complicating the matter.
(Not that Occam's Razor is necessarily a rule of thumb that applies to
Jordan's writing, but even so.)
P. Korda
Bryon Wasserman <wass...@law.georgetown.edu.REMOVETOREPLY> wrote:
>On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 06:48:18 GMT, ko...@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda)
>wrote:
>>Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Old things resolved:
>>
>>1. The identities of Moridin, Aran'gar and Osan'gar. (Ish, Aginor, and
>> Balthamel, respectively)
>
>How were the latter two resolved in PoD? We've known who the gars were
>since LoC. Do we get any new information on the matter in PoD?
Well, _sensible_ people figured out how the gars were as soon as they
appeared. However, there's always been the lunatic fringe claiming
that one or the other was Ishamael or Lanfear or something like
that. Moridin's comment about knowing of the Warder-AS bond for a
long, long time fixes him as Ishy. The Guide tells us that Aginor was
the only one of the Forsaken to be involved in the making of
Shadowspawn, which makes him Osan'gar. Halima explicitly thinks that
she used to be a man, and that makes her Balthamel (who was the only
one left).
When I said "resolved," I meant _resolved_, as in "explicit textual
references which tell us the answer straight out."
>> 1. Taimandred
>
>Do we really get any new evidence on this front? We thought that Taim
>was up to something and now we have it confirmed
There are bits which lend credence to both sides of the argument. I'll
go into detail at a later time.
>> 3. Who is Mesaana, in the Tower.
>
>What do we learn on this front? We knew from CoS that she was hidden
>as a non AS and we knew that she wasn't using a disguise.
No, we didn't.
>Min's visions run from 559 to 562.
Thanks.
-pam
Dennis Higbee
: In article <F1Mo...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
: P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
: >Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
: >my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
: >new questions.
: >Needless to say, there be spoilers
[Questions about PoD, courtesy of the FAQueen, long may she reign]
: 8. Who killed Adeleas and Ispan?
: (I'll write up the case for Vandene if you want to FAQ this one;
: Asra seems to be the other suspect).
Unless I've seriously got my chronology off, Mili Skane qualifies
as a suspect as well. Assassin, now in Caemlyn, last seen in the
south, where she's be able to procure Crimsonthorn.
If she could have gotten back to Caemlyn to kill Carridin in
time, she's gotta be under suspicion.
--
Dennis Higbee | "Ain't it funny that they all fire the
bn...@li.net | pistol at the wrong end of the race."
http://www.li.net/~bnook/ | -P. Townshend
Gatrgrl103
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I think that Halima HAD to torture Sheriam. I mean, she's the only woman who
can use Saidin, and I doubt a male Forsaken would go out of their way to
torture some woman.
Another thing about Asmodean's death.. I don't think it was a normal Forsaken.
I mean, what would Graendal's motive be? Or Sammael's? I think that he did
have a run in with Moridin, BUT instead of taking him to be a slave, he killed
him. If it's obvious by what the book says, it's got to be Moridin..
I highly think Cyndane is Lanfear, but where is Moiraine????
Argh! For every question we think we answer , three more questions spring up in
their place! Jen
Bryon Wasserman
wrote:
>>>1. The identities of Moridin, Aran'gar and Osan'gar. (Ish, Aginor, and
>>> Balthamel, respectively)
>>
>>How were the latter two resolved in PoD? We've known who the gars were
>>since LoC. Do we get any new information on the matter in PoD?
>
>Well, _sensible_ people figured out how the gars were as soon as they
>appeared. However, there's always been the lunatic fringe claiming
>that one or the other was Ishamael or Lanfear or something like
>that. Moridin's comment about knowing of the Warder-AS bond for a
>long, long time fixes him as Ishy. The Guide tells us that Aginor was
>the only one of the Forsaken to be involved in the making of
>Shadowspawn, which makes him Osan'gar. Halima explicitly thinks that
>she used to be a man, and that makes her Balthamel (who was the only
>one left).
We knew with absolute certainty beforehand that she was a man. She
was a dead forsaken and os'angar compares her to Lanfear so she
wasn't lanfear. The only other option that wasn't 100% closed to us
was Asmodean and technically that's still open(though ridiculous).
>When I said "resolved," I meant _resolved_, as in "explicit textual
>references which tell us the answer straight out."
See above.
>>> 3. Who is Mesaana, in the Tower.
>>
>>What do we learn on this front? We knew from CoS that she was hidden
>>as a non AS and we knew that she wasn't using a disguise.
>
>No, we didn't.
Well, Alviarin's POV that she was hiding her ability to channel and
that she was hiding her appearance , which pretty much points to her
not using a disguise and not pretending to be an AS. Otherwise, what
is the point of either measure? Do we learn anything new on the
subject in PoD other than what her skirt looks like?
>>Min's visions run from 559 to 562.
>
>Thanks.
>
Welcome.
Neil Anderson
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Gatrgrl103 wrote:
>
> Spoiler Space:
> .
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Enough already
> I think that Halima HAD to torture Sheriam. I mean, she's the only woman who
> can use Saidin, and I doubt a male Forsaken would go out of their way to
> torture some woman.
<snip text>
Actually, it is not specifically mentioned which half of the OP is used
to shield Sheriam, only that she is shielded immediately after she
realized there was someone else in the tent with her. However, this
doesn't help identify the shielder, because we know it is not the first
time that Sheriam has been questioned, and so use of saidin on her would
no longer cause her to comment on it in her POV. OTOH, the lack of ANY
specific mention of her feeling the flows being woven may indicate that
it is in fact the male half of the OP being used.
Neil Anderson
The ORIGINAL bucket of horsesweat
Amy Gray
Karl-Johan Noren wrote in message ...
>
>In <71cid3$c...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
>"Dave Rothgery" <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>
>Here there be spoilers:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>[ who beat Sheriam up?]
>> However, it had to be a male channeler or a Forsaken, because Sherriam
saw
>> no flows being woven, and no one else [like Egwene] noticed a lot of the
OP
>> being used in Sherriam's tent -- i.e. whoever did it used saidin or the
True
>> Power.
>
>Actually, the amount need not be that big once the shield
>is in place.
>
That's what I thought. After all, it probably doesn't take a significantly
higher amount of the Power to make clubs of Air and move them around than it
does to, say, move a chair w/ the Power or channel your lamp lit--the sort
of things she might actually be doing in her tent.
--
Amy Gray
UIN: 21382476
Bill E. Brooks
wrote:
>Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
>my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
>new questions.
>
>Needless to say, there be spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Old things resolved:
>
>1. The identities of Moridin, Aran'gar and Osan'gar. (Ish, Aginor, and
> Balthamel, respectively)
>2. Is Rand going mad, or is it just stress? (Loony tunes)
>3. Are BA bound by the Oath Rod? (Yes, to different oaths)
>4. Is Shaidar Haran Ishy? (No way)
>5. What was up w/ Saldaea?
>6. what have the Seanchan been up to?
>
>Old questions, new evidence:
>
> 1. Taimandred
> 2. Dashiva/Osan'gar/Aginor
> 3. Who is Mesaana, in the Tower.
> 4. Who killed Asmodean? (Yeah, K-J, I know you think it's resolved, but
> the topic is way too complex to call it "resolved" until some character
> confesses.)
> 5. The Taint-Seals theory/curing the Taint
> 6. Verin
> 7. Is Sheriam BA?
> 8. Setalle Anan
> 9. What happenned after Moir. and lanfear fell through the door?
>10. Is Aviendha knocked up?
>11. Who will use Callandor? (Logain theory)
12. What are the Darkfriends trying to do to Egwene and Elaida?
13. How much force does the SAS and The White Tower have?
14. Is Pevara BA?
15. Is Sammael dead?
16. What is the nature of the wards in Caemlyn made by Rahvin, and in
Illian and Shadar Logoth by Sammael? Do they explode, or are they
detection wards? (Not much new evidence here, but this is missing
from the FAQ.)
>New questions/issues
>
> 1. What was up with the weirdess of the OP around Ebou Dar?
> 2. Cyndane's identity and how she came to be. (related to 9, above)
> 3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
> 4. Is Cadsuane's hair-thingy a ter'angreal? (minor, but it's been mentioned)
> 5. What exactly was that mess at the end all about, anyway? (relates to
> 1 & 2, above)
I assume you mean the attack by the 5 Asha'man.
> 6. Nine Fisher-king-chess players: what, if any, significance?
> 7. The mystery of the Salidar Sitters.
8. Who killed Adeleas and Ispan? (I say Asra.)
9. Is Talene a Darkfriend? (She was the one who refused to use the
Oath Rod.)
10. What was behind two different sisters (Galina and Zerah) swearing
an oath to _obey_ to a pair of people (Sevanna/Therava and
Seaine/Pevara)?
11. What was with the conversation between Gedwyn and Weiramon?
(TPoD, 24, 473).
12. Who got the worse end of the lightning bolts generated by Rand?
>On a FAQ-related note, has anybody been clever enough to have noted
>the page #'s of the new prophecies? (Thankfully, there were not very
>many, only a few Min-visions and Eg-dreams.)
>
Egwene's dreams are on <TPoD, 15, 308-9>.
-Bill Brooks
Aaron Bergman
>In article <F1Mo...@midway.uchicago.edu>, P. Korda wrote:
>>Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
>>my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
>>new questions.
>>
>>Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>I stopped. I can see if I still have a couple of them written
>down....
Egwene has dreams on p. 308.
Aaron
Bill E. Brooks
>
>Mike Kozlowski wrote in message <71br1a$13ra$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>...
>>In article <F1Mo...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>>P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>Needless to say, there be spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>> 3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
>>
>>Halima, I assumed.
>>
>>Clue me in: What are the other alternatives.
>
>People have suggested Delana, Alviarin, Semirhage, Mesaana, and I think a
>few others.
>
>However, it had to be a male channeler or a Forsaken, because Sherriam saw
>no flows being woven, and no one else [like Egwene] noticed a lot of the OP
>being used in Sherriam's tent -- i.e. whoever did it used saidin or the True
>Power.
>
I disagree with this. I reread the section <TPoD, 16, 345> very
carefully, and never does Sheriam deny saidar being used against her.
>I can't see another FS is Moridin's orbit toruturing Sherriam when Halima's
>right there. That leaves Mesaana, Semirhage, and Demandred (I guess Sammael
>is a slim possiblity, but I've always thought he was dead.). Sherriam's
>torture was rather unsophisticated, making Semirhage unlikely. Mesaana's
>still in Tar Valon. Demandred is pretty unconcerned with the rebel AS,
>whether he's Taim or with the Seanchan.
>
It could have been Alviarin; she was known to be out of the Tower at
the time. And who knows what she has learned from Mesaana.
-Bill Brooks
Erica Sadun
>FAQueen Pam Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>out/severed. It explains the transfer of Lan's bond.
My theory is they both got wishes, but Moiraine knew to wish well
and Lanfear did not. Moiraine may have been severed, but the bond
could have also broken as a side-effect of a wish or as a wish
itself.
-- Erica
--
===========================ERICA SADUN================================
Grep poop whilst ye may, oh babies of the Spring...
er...@galileo.cudenver.edu.nospam
======================================================================
Bill E. Brooks
wrote:
>In article <wkk91i2...@dsv.su.se>,
>Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>>
>>In <F1Mo...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>>FAQueen Pam Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
>>> my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
>>> new questions.
>>> Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> 4. Who killed Asmodean? (Yeah, K-J, I know you think it's resolved, but
>>> the topic is way too complex to call it "resolved" until some character
>>> confesses.)
>>
>>Only in the meaning that Lanfear didn't do it.
>
>Laugh while you can, monkey-boy.
>
>Seriously, though, if it wasn't Lanfear, it had to have been
>Graendal. Even RJ couldn't stretch "obvious from the instant he died"
>to refer to any character who we hadn't seen thus far in the series. I
>suppose it could have been Sammael.
>
<LoC, 6, 133> Sammael:
"Al'Thor would need help. Help--that could explain his supposed luck
so far. 'Have you learned where al'Thor is hiding Asmodean?'"
This seems to me to indicate _very_ strongly that Sammael did not know
that Asmodean was dead.
I think Graendal killed Asmodean.
-Bill Brooks
Erica Sadun
:In article <F1Mo...@midway.uchicago.edu>, P. Korda wrote:
Spoilers
:>Old things resolved:
:>New questions/issues
:>
:> 1. What was up with the weirdess of the OP around Ebou Dar?
:> 2. Cyndane's identity and how she came to be. (related to 9, above)
:> 3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
:> 4. Is Cadsuane's hair-thingy a ter'angreal? (minor, but it's been mentioned)
:> 5. What exactly was that mess at the end all about, anyway? (relates to
:> 1 & 2, above)
:> 6. Nine Fisher-king-chess players: what, if any, significance?
:> 7. The mystery of the Salidar Sitters.
: 8. What is Elaida's plan for taking out the Salidar Aes Sedai.
: 9. Why is Rand seeing double?
: 10. What's up with Callandor?
11. Are there one bowl or two? (Seanchan seal, names of the thrones)
12. Is Tai'Daishar the foal of Daishar?
13. Whats the deal with Elayne & the inn & the hot ter'angreal?
14. Is Rand/Lews Therin madness a zero sum game?
15. Why did Aviendha react so much to the dull knife ter'angreal (Rhuidean?)
16. When does the Ageless look go away (breaking oaths, severing, etc)
17. What happened to the escort of 4 with the duopotamians which became 2?
18. What was the Extra bit? (The kiss, the bond, the compulsion, etc?)
19. Can a (non-black) AS take an oath and then not keep it?
20. What was the golden spires thing at the prologue. (LoC, A Different Dance,
USHB 112)
21. How do warder-rings "involuntary rings" work when channeling is used?
22. Why the maid murders?
Egwene's dreams:
PoD, Stronger than Written Law [paraphrased], USHB 308
Regarding Old Stuff:
I'm still not convinced that SH isn't Ishy. We have yet
to see Moridin & SH in the same scene.
Bill E. Brooks
wrote:
>In article <wkk91i2...@dsv.su.se> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> writes:
>>FAQueen Pam Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>> 9. What happenned after Moir. and lanfear fell through the door?
>>
>>My theory is that Lanfear was killed and Moiraine was burned
>>out/severed. It explains the transfer of Lan's bond.
>
>My theory is they both got wishes, but Moiraine knew to wish well
>and Lanfear did not.
I think you should instead say "Moiraine wished poorly, and Lanfear
wished even more poorly." Otherwise, Moiraine would have gotten out
like Mat.
-Bill Brooks
Bill E. Brooks
(Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 06:48:18 GMT, ko...@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda)
>wrote:
>
>>Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
>>my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
>>new questions.
>>
>>Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>New questions/issues
>>
One more:
13. Where did Suroth get her info from?
-Bill Brooks
Andrea Leistra
Erica Sadun <er...@galileo.cudenver.edu> wrote:
>In article <slrn73jrdc....@treex.Stanford.EDU> aber...@princeton.edu (Aaron Bergman) writes:
>:In article <F1Mo...@midway.uchicago.edu>, P. Korda wrote:
>Spoilers
>:>New questions/issues
>21. How do warder-rings "involuntary rings" work when channeling is used?
I don't think "involuntary rings" refers to the Warder bond, but to the
a'dam. In the context, "rings" are clearly "links" (Moridin's later
thought makes this clear, but I don't have the books with me and
--
Andrea Leistra
Richard M. Boye'
One of the Forsaken?
Like Demandred.....?
--
Richard M. Boye' wa...@webspan.net
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/ UIN:9021244
"I don't need to drink to have a good time.
I need to drink to stop the voices in my head."
Bill E. Brooks
<wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>Bill E. Brooks wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:28:39 GMT, wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net
>> (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>
>> >On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 06:48:18 GMT, ko...@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda)
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
>> >>my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
>> >>new questions.
>> >>
>> >>Needless to say, there be spoilers
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>New questions/issues
>
>> One more:
>> 13. Where did Suroth get her info from?
>
>
>One of the Forsaken?
>
>
>Like Demandred.....?
>
That's what I was thinking. If Demandred is manipulating the Seanchan
as Sammael said, and Taim==Demandred, he would have had the
information for free. Why would he do this? In order to equalize the
battle, and maximize chaos.
-Bill Brooks
rajesh...@my-dejanews.com
ko...@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) wrote:
> Needless to say, there be spoilers
>
> Old things resolved:
> 5. What was up w/ Saldaea?
What _is_ up with Saldaea? There have been mentions of it in almost every
book. There is considerable time between the rise and fall and re-rise of
Taim on the one hand, and the Borderlander Social on the other. Tenobia could
not have taken months to travel to the Social. So what else was wrong in
Saldaea?
> Old questions, new evidence:
> 10. Is Aviendha knocked up?
I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here.
When the 13 women link to use the Bowl of the Winds, Elayne's POV recounts
everyone's emotional state. We see no evidence of a - here it comes - a
new life form. Is that conclusive?
<ducking and running>
> 1. What was up with the weirdess of the OP around Ebou Dar?
Wasn't this resolved? The solution, IIRC, was the presence of gobs of saidin
and saidar whipping about despite the time elapsed since the Bowl produced
those massive weaves.
--
Rajesh
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
rajesh...@my-dejanews.com
wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
[Old unresolved issues]
> 14. Is Pevara BA?
Pevara took an oath on the Oath Rod: "I will speak no word that is not
true." And then she said, "I am not Black Ajah." Quite conclusive.
> >New questions/issues
> 10. What was behind two different sisters (Galina and Zerah) swearing
> an oath to _obey_ to a pair of people (Sevanna/Therava and
> Seaine/Pevara)?
A Foreshadowing of how Galina is going to die?
> 12. Who got the worse end of the lightning bolts generated by Rand?
I'd say the Seanchan. Rand killed many of his own, but there were not
that many to begin with. His actual armies are far greater and still intact.
The Seanchan, on the other hand, lost, period. "The Ever Victorious Army had
suffered a second devastating defeat on these shores." Or something like
that.
rajesh...@my-dejanews.com
er...@galileo.cudenver.edu (Erica Sadun) wrote:
No Spoilers
> Regarding Old Stuff:
> I'm still not convinced that SH isn't Ishy. We have yet
> to see Moridin & SH in the same scene.
>
Moridin is a man. Shaidar Haran is a Myrddraal. It can _only_ travel using
shadows (see the passage in ACOS, wherein SH is spying on Sammael's
meeting with Sevanna. It talks about severing the tie to Shayul Ghul, and
then "turns to find the shadow it needed".
Moridin, on the other hand, _T_ravels.
Craig Moe
>In article <F1Mo...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>>Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
>>my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
>>new questions.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>New questions/issues
>
>> 1. What was up with the weirdess of the OP around Ebou Dar?
>> 2. Cyndane's identity and how she came to be. (related to 9, above)
>> 3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
>> 4. Is Cadsuane's hair-thingy a ter'angreal? (minor, but it's been mentioned)
>> 5. What exactly was that mess at the end all about, anyway? (relates to
>> 1 & 2, above)
>> 6. Nine Fisher-king-chess players: what, if any, significance?
>> 7. The mystery of the Salidar Sitters.
> 8. Who killed Adeleas and Ispan?
>
>(I'll write up the case for Vandene if you want to FAQ this one;
> Asra seems to be the other suspect).
I'll be happy to write up the case against Vandene; I consider Asra less
of a suspect than a whole host of other people, however. (Mili Skaine, the
gholam, Semirhage or whomever she sent to off the Black Ajah in Tear all
spring to mind.)
--
Craig Moe <Crai...@unc.edu>
"I read that it had some serious side effects. I can't remember any of
them, or else I could be informative. But at least I can be alarmist."
--Dave Foley
Noell Milota
E. Brooks) wrote:
>On 30 Oct 1998 20:52:50 GMT, er...@galileo.cudenver.edu (Erica Sadun)
>wrote:
[What happened after Moir. and Lanfear fell through the doorway?]
>>My theory is they both got wishes, but Moiraine knew to wish well
>>and Lanfear did not.
>
>I think you should instead say "Moiraine wished poorly, and Lanfear
>wished even more poorly." Otherwise, Moiraine would have gotten out
>like Mat.
Mat obviously didn't wish all that well, himself, or he wouldn't have
ended up hanging from the Tree of Life.
--
Noell Milota <no...@concentric.net>
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to
learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for
their apparent disinclination to do so." - Douglas Adams
Bill E. Brooks
>In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
> wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>
>> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Old unresolved issues]
>
>> 14. Is Pevara BA?
>
>Pevara took an oath on the Oath Rod: "I will speak no word that is not
>true." And then she said, "I am not Black Ajah." Quite conclusive.
>
I disagree that this is conclusive. For all we know, Mesaana may have
conceived a way around this. She may have been an expert on Oath Rods
in the AoL; that fits with being a teacher/researcher. For example,
perhaps Pevara had previously sworn an oath with wording that
indicates that any future oaths would be subordinated to it. Plus,
consider that if Pevara is a Darkfriend, she has succeeded in forcing
another non-Black sister, Zerah, to obey the Black Ajah. Mesaana has
already done this once before with Elaida. Mesaana would have also
succeeded in creating the kind of hysteria associated with a witch
hunt. Notice that Zerah just happened to be a rebel, rather than
Black Ajah. Mesaana could have discovered the rebel spies herself,
and then used Pevara to reveal their presence, while directing
attention away from those who really are Black Ajah.
>> >New questions/issues
>
>> 10. What was behind two different sisters (Galina and Zerah) swearing
>> an oath to _obey_ to a pair of people (Sevanna/Therava and
>> Seaine/Pevara)?
>
>A Foreshadowing of how Galina is going to die?
>
I was suggesting here that Moridin is maneuvering Darkfriends (Therava
and Pevara) into positions of greater power. Galina got herself
captured, and so she is becoming a victum. No need to kill her if a
Darkfriend gains control of her.
>> 12. Who got the worse end of the lightning bolts generated by Rand?
>
>I'd say the Seanchan. Rand killed many of his own, but there were not
>that many to begin with. His actual armies are far greater and still intact.
>
I agree. It wasn't so good for the morale of Rand's allies, though.
>The Seanchan, on the other hand, lost, period. "The Ever Victorious Army had
>suffered a second devastating defeat on these shores." Or something like
>that.
>
Both sides believed they had lost.
-Bill Brooks
Richard M. Boye'
>
> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
> >
> >> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> 14. Is Pevara BA?
> >
> >Pevara took an oath on the Oath Rod: "I will speak no word that is not
> >true." And then she said, "I am not Black Ajah." Quite conclusive.
> >
> I disagree that this is conclusive. For all we know, Mesaana may have
> conceived a way around this. She may have been an expert on Oath Rods
> in the AoL; that fits with being a teacher/researcher.
Fah.
The Pevara=DF theory has been put to rest.
If Mesaana had found away around having Black Ajah members taking a
direct oath to tell the truth and then announce their alliegences,
dontcha think she would have provided this information to Talene Minly?
> Black Ajah. Mesaana could have discovered the rebel spies herself,
> and then used Pevara to reveal their presence, while directing
> attention away from those who really are Black Ajah.
Like Talene?
> I was suggesting here that Moridin is maneuvering Darkfriends (Therava
> and Pevara) into positions of greater power. Galina got herself
> captured, and so she is becoming a victum. No need to kill her if a
> Darkfriend gains control of her.
You don't know either of theem are Darkfriends, and Pevara is most
certainly not.
--
Richard M. Boye' wa...@webspan.net
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/ UIN:9021244
"Roses are red, Violets are blue,
I'm a schizophrenic, And so am I."
rajesh...@my-dejanews.com
wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
> >
> >> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> 14. Is Pevara BA?
> >
> >Pevara took an oath on the Oath Rod: "I will speak no word that is not
> >true." And then she said, "I am not Black Ajah." Quite conclusive.
> >
> I disagree that this is conclusive. For all we know, Mesaana may have
> conceived a way around this. She may have been an expert on Oath Rods
> in the AoL; that fits with being a teacher/researcher.
Mesaana was "unsuitable for research." She could only teach what others had
discovered already. This was why she turned to the DO in the first place.
> For example, perhaps Pevara had previously sworn an oath with wording that
> indicates that any future oaths would be subordinated to it.
Something like Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics? There is no evidence to
support this, but there _is_ evidence to support my conclusion - namely,
(1) Zerah's reaction to being told to lie after taking Oath to both obey and
speak no word that is not true, and (2) Galina's reaction as her Oath of
obedience settles in. Galina has no hope left.
Besides, the story of Pevara having lost all her
family seems like a Jordanesque red herring set up in ACOS. I'm just a
little surprised it took only one more book to resolve this.
Plus,
> consider that if Pevara is a Darkfriend, she has succeeded in forcing
> another non-Black sister, Zerah, to obey the Black Ajah. Mesaana has
> already done this once before with Elaida.
Yes, Mesaana controls Elaida through Alviarin. Are you saying she (Mesaana)
cannot control Zerah through Elaida? Elaida, after all, is the Amyrlin Seat.
Even Alviarin, as the Keeper, could easily command Zerah.
Besides, Elaida is controlled because of her own failures and the ambition
that drives her to strike a bargain, any bargain, to hold onto the Stole. And
it was important for Mesaana to control Elaida because of her title. What
could Zera possibly offer Mesaana, epsecially since she (or Pevara) had no
idea whatsoever of Zerah's affiliations? That Zerah was a SAS spy sent to the
Tower to sow seeds of discontent and chaos, without the BA taking any hand in
it, works to Mesaana's advantage, not detriment, especially if Zerah is free
of any Oath that might implicate the BA.
> >> >New questions/issues
> >
> >> 10. What was behind two different sisters (Galina and Zerah) swearing
> >> an oath to _obey_ to a pair of people (Sevanna/Therava and
> >> Seaine/Pevara)?
> >
> >A Foreshadowing of how Galina is going to die?
> >
> I was suggesting here that Moridin is maneuvering Darkfriends (Therava
> and Pevara) into positions of greater power.
If Pevara is a DF (I don't believe this for a second), she would be controlled
by Alviarin and Mesaana. Are you saying Moridin also controls Pevara, or that
he controls Mesaana?
As for Therava, she could be a DF, but then again she could just be a really
hard Aiel WO. The Aiel WOs in Cairhien have been shown to be no worse than
Therava in their treatment of prisoners. The Shaido WOs are worse in the sense
that they have thrown 3 millenia's worth of tradition along with the truth
of the glass columns in Rhuidean by the wayside, and they murdered Desaine.
Does that make any one or all of them DFs? I don't think so. Even Sevanna does
not think of herself as a DF, sworn to the Great Lord of the Dark.
> >> 12. Who got the worse end of the lightning bolts generated by Rand?
> >
> >I'd say the Seanchan. Rand killed many of his own, but there were not
> >that many to begin with. His actual armies are far greater and still intact.
> >
> I agree. It wasn't so good for the morale of Rand's allies, though.
True enough, but I doubt the thought has occurred to Rand.
> >The Seanchan, on the other hand, lost, period. "The Ever Victorious Army had
> >suffered a second devastating defeat on these shores." Or something like
> >that.
> >
> Both sides believed they had lost.
Rand believed he had lost because he killed some of his own men and because
he did not know whether he had inflicted any damage on the Seanchan. That
qualifies as a perceived loss, not a real one. The Seanchan, on the other
hand, _know_ that they lost. Badly. A second time. At the hands of the same
man.
Paul E. Ward
>
> Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
> my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
> new questions.
>
> New questions/issues
>
> 4. Is Cadsuane's hair-thingy a ter'angreal? (minor, but it's been mentioned)
I thought it was glaringly obvious. When Elayne was sorting through
the *'angreal that they'd recovered from Ebou Dar. She thinks how
some of the jewelery-like pieces looked like they were meant to be
worn together -- though why anyone would do that would be beyond her.
We then see Cadsuane with her "hair-thingy" that feels cold. Hmm...
<rhetorical> could it be? </rhetorical>
--
Paul Ward
nom...@cats.ucsc.edu
Richard M. Boye'
>
> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:28:23 -0500, "Richard M. Boye'"
[14. Is Pevara BA?]
> >The Pevara=DF theory has been put to rest.
> >
> >If Mesaana had found away around having Black Ajah members taking a
> >direct oath to tell the truth and then announce their alliegences,
> >dontcha think she would have provided this information to Talene Minly?
> I agree with your analysis, but I don't think that we can conclude
> _Talene_ is BA. In fact, the evidence is pretty weak for that. A
> refusal to take a test is not proof of guilt. I suppose neither
> Talene nor Pevara could be Darkfriends, but I find that unlikely. For
> one thing, too much irony would be lost.
This is silly.
There are five sisters there, all adamant in their willingness to show
they are not servants on the Dark One.
They are all willing to show the others by taking the oaths.
One refuses to take the oaths and _tries_ to _flee_.
Why the fuck else would she be fleeing unless she was aware that the
renewed oath of truthfulness would force her to expose herself!?!? (1)
> I looked for more info on Talene, and on <ACoS, 32, 514> it says she
> is Seaine's other friend, and Green Ajah. If either Talene or Pevara
> are Darkfriends, each would have reason to drive a wedge between
> Seaine and the other.
Talene is a darkfriend.
Pevara is not! She took the oath of truthfulness right in front of us
and then announced "I am not Black Ajah." This is conclusive. What else
do you want?
> >> I was suggesting here that Moridin is maneuvering Darkfriends (Therava
> >> and Pevara) into positions of greater power. Galina got herself
> >> captured, and so she is becoming a victum. No need to kill her if a
> >> Darkfriend gains control of her.
> >You don't know either of them are Darkfriends, and Pevara is most
> >certainly not.
> I don't know, true, but I have evidence.
What else is this "evidence" besides your won personal and non-textual
suppositions like maybe "Mesaana found away to work around the Oath
Rod?"
--
Richard M. Boye' wa...@webspan.net
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/ UIN:9021244
"Roses are red, Violets are blue,
I'm a schizophrenic, And so am I."
1) Insert Loy joke here.
Igor Papirov
Mike Kozlowski wrote in message <71ctfa$jam$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>...
>In article <71cid3$c...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
>Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>>Mike Kozlowski wrote in message <71br1a$13ra$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>...
>
>ObUsenet: Spoliers definately follow.
>
>
>
>>>> 3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
>>>
>>>Clue me in: What are the other alternatives.
>>
>>People have suggested Delana, Alviarin, Semirhage, Mesaana, and I think a
>>few others.
>
>it's not her; positing anybody else seems to be needlessly
>over-complicating the matter.
>
>(Not that Occam's Razor is necessarily a rule of thumb that applies to
>Jordan's writing, but even so.)
I actually think that it wasn't Halima at all. Why would Jordan be hiding
her identity? He seems to do that only when he's introducing a new
important character or resurrecting important old one but in any case it
someone we never expect.
Igor
Bill E. Brooks
<wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>Bill E. Brooks wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> >In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>> >
>> >> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>> >> 14. Is Pevara BA?
>> >
>> >Pevara took an oath on the Oath Rod: "I will speak no word that is not
>> >true." And then she said, "I am not Black Ajah." Quite conclusive.
>> >
>> I disagree that this is conclusive. For all we know, Mesaana may have
>> conceived a way around this. She may have been an expert on Oath Rods
>> in the AoL; that fits with being a teacher/researcher.
>
>Fah.
>
>The Pevara=DF theory has been put to rest.
>
>If Mesaana had found away around having Black Ajah members taking a
>direct oath to tell the truth and then announce their alliegences,
>dontcha think she would have provided this information to Talene Minly?
>
I agree with your analysis, but I don't think that we can conclude
_Talene_ is BA. In fact, the evidence is pretty weak for that. A
refusal to take a test is not proof of guilt. I suppose neither
Talene nor Pevara could be Darkfriends, but I find that unlikely. For
one thing, too much irony would be lost.
I looked for more info on Talene, and on <ACoS, 32, 514> it says she
is Seaine's other friend, and Green Ajah. If either Talene or Pevara
are Darkfriends, each would have reason to drive a wedge between
Seaine and the other.
>> Black Ajah. Mesaana could have discovered the rebel spies herself,
>> and then used Pevara to reveal their presence, while directing
>> attention away from those who really are Black Ajah.
>
>Like Talene?
>
No, like Pevara.
>> I was suggesting here that Moridin is maneuvering Darkfriends (Therava
>> and Pevara) into positions of greater power. Galina got herself
>> captured, and so she is becoming a victum. No need to kill her if a
>> Darkfriend gains control of her.
>
>You don't know either of them are Darkfriends, and Pevara is most
>certainly not.
>
I don't know, true, but I have evidence.
-Bill Brooks
Bill E. Brooks
>In article <363b3d5a...@news.campus.mci.net>,
> wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> >In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>> >
>> >> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >[Old unresolved issues]
>> >
>> >> 14. Is Pevara BA?
>> >
>> >Pevara took an oath on the Oath Rod: "I will speak no word that is not
>> >true." And then she said, "I am not Black Ajah." Quite conclusive.
>> >
>> I disagree that this is conclusive. For all we know, Mesaana may have
>> conceived a way around this. She may have been an expert on Oath Rods
>> in the AoL; that fits with being a teacher/researcher.
>
>Mesaana was "unsuitable for research." She could only teach what others had
>discovered already. This was why she turned to the DO in the first place.
>
1. The Collam Daan may have had very high standards. No one ever said
Mesaana was incompetent at research.
2. She may just be applying someone else's research.
>> For example, perhaps Pevara had previously sworn an oath with wording that
>> indicates that any future oaths would be subordinated to it.
>
>Something like Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics?
That's correct.
>There is no evidence to
>support this, but there _is_ evidence to support my conclusion - namely,
>(1) Zerah's reaction to being told to lie after taking Oath to both obey and
>speak no word that is not true, and (2) Galina's reaction as her Oath of
>obedience settles in. Galina has no hope left.
>
(1) In this case, Zerah had sworn two oaths that were contradictory,
with neither being subordinated to the other.
(2) Galina was taken before Mesaana conceived this plan.
Note also that the Oath Rods have different numbers on them, an
indication that they may be different in other ways.
My evidence is that Pevara has been acting very suspiciously, and I am
looking for some way to explain it. And the truth is, if there were a
way around the oath rod that Darkfriends intended to use, they would
offer as much proof as they could that there _is_ no way, in order to
discourage curiosity.
>Besides, the story of Pevara having lost all her
>family seems like a Jordanesque red herring set up in ACOS. I'm just a
>little surprised it took only one more book to resolve this.
>
The red herring could be in TPoD.
>Plus,
>> consider that if Pevara is a Darkfriend, she has succeeded in forcing
>> another non-Black sister, Zerah, to obey the Black Ajah. Mesaana has
>> already done this once before with Elaida.
>
>Yes, Mesaana controls Elaida through Alviarin. Are you saying she (Mesaana)
>cannot control Zerah through Elaida? Elaida, after all, is the Amyrlin Seat.
>Even Alviarin, as the Keeper, could easily command Zerah.
>
Elaida can't survive as Amyrlin much longer unless she gets rid of
Alviarin. (And she has a plan to do that.) If Alviarin takes
control, she could still command her Zerah, but she would have to
maintain a low profile in order to avoid suspicion.
As soon as Aes Sedai swear an oath to obey, they have to do whatever
she says, regardless of how outrageous it is. Look at what she has
done to Elaida.
>Besides, Elaida is controlled because of her own failures and the ambition
>that drives her to strike a bargain, any bargain, to hold onto the Stole. And
>it was important for Mesaana to control Elaida because of her title. What
>could Zera possibly offer Mesaana, epsecially since she (or Pevara) had no
>idea whatsoever of Zerah's affiliations?
One more feather in her cap. Notice that Egwene is doing much the
same thing, though with oaths of fealty.
>That Zerah was a SAS spy sent to the
>Tower to sow seeds of discontent and chaos, without the BA taking any hand in
>it, works to Mesaana's advantage, not detriment, especially if Zerah is free
>of any Oath that might implicate the BA.
>
And she used that information to gain control of her. Mesaana would
believes that Zerah can sow discontent and chaos far better if she
follows Mesaana's own plans.
>> >> >New questions/issues
>> >
>> >> 10. What was behind two different sisters (Galina and Zerah) swearing
>> >> an oath to _obey_ to a pair of people (Sevanna/Therava and
>> >> Seaine/Pevara)?
>> >
>> >A Foreshadowing of how Galina is going to die?
>> >
>> I was suggesting here that Moridin is maneuvering Darkfriends (Therava
>> and Pevara) into positions of greater power.
>
>If Pevara is a DF (I don't believe this for a second), she would be controlled
>by Alviarin and Mesaana. Are you saying Moridin also controls Pevara, or that
>he controls Mesaana?
>
There are several possibilities:
1. Moridin controls Mesaana who controls Pevara (perhaps through
Alviarin).
2. Moridin controls Pevara directly.
3. Mesaana controls Pevara, but Moridin doesn't control Mesaana.
#1 best fits my theory.
#2 fits, but undermines some of my evidence.
#3 fits the Pevara is a DF theory, but not the Oath Rod theory.
>As for Therava, she could be a DF, but then again she could just be a really
>hard Aiel WO. The Aiel WOs in Cairhien have been shown to be no worse than
>Therava in their treatment of prisoners.
I had thought that Galina would wish to go back to Therava after
Sevanna got her hands on her, and after she was named da'tsang. But
this didn't happen at all. Check <TPoD, 11, 254>:
"She had daydreamed about breaking every one of these women, making
them plead for death, laughing as she denied their begging. About
every one except Therava. At night, Therava filled her dreams and all
Galina could do was flee; the only escape was to wake screaming."
>The Shaido WOs are worse in the sense
>that they have thrown 3 millenia's worth of tradition along with the truth
>of the glass columns in Rhuidean by the wayside, and they murdered Desaine.
>Does that make any one or all of them DFs? I don't think so. Even Sevanna does
>not think of herself as a DF, sworn to the Great Lord of the Dark.
>
I agree that most of the Shaido are not Darkfriends. But some of them
must be. Right now, it looks to me like Therava is the best
candidate.
>> >> 12. Who got the worse end of the lightning bolts generated by Rand?
>> >
>> >I'd say the Seanchan. Rand killed many of his own, but there were not
>> >that many to begin with. His actual armies are far greater and still intact.
>> >
>> I agree. It wasn't so good for the morale of Rand's allies, though.
>
>True enough, but I doubt the thought has occurred to Rand.
>
Unfortunately.
>> >The Seanchan, on the other hand, lost, period. "The Ever Victorious Army had
>> >suffered a second devastating defeat on these shores." Or something like
>> >that.
>> >
>> Both sides believed they had lost.
>
>Rand believed he had lost because he killed some of his own men and because
>he did not know whether he had inflicted any damage on the Seanchan. That
>qualifies as a perceived loss, not a real one.
>The Seanchan, on the other
>hand, _know_ that they lost. Badly. A second time. At the hands of the same
>man.
>
That was a perceived loss too. I say it was a defensive victory for
the Seanchan, if a Pyrrhic one. They held Ebou Dar, and Rand had to
retreat. Part of the reason why the Seanchan perceived it as a loss
was because Suroth ordered them to destroy Rand's army, and they
failed to do that.
-Bill Brooks
Bryon Wasserman
(Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:28:23 -0500, "Richard M. Boye'"
><wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>
>>Bill E. Brooks wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>
>>> >In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>>> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>
>I agree with your analysis, but I don't think that we can conclude
>_Talene_ is BA. In fact, the evidence is pretty weak for that. A
>refusal to take a test is not proof of guilt. I suppose neither
>Talene nor Pevara could be Darkfriends, but I find that unlikely. For
>one thing, too much irony would be lost.
Even if her behavior wasn't incredibly suspicious, she's going to be
forcibly interrogated at this point. Having such a scene would be
entirely pointless if they're going to find out five minutes later
that she in fact was not.
>>> I was suggesting here that Moridin is maneuvering Darkfriends (Therava
>>> and Pevara) into positions of greater power. Galina got herself
>>> captured, and so she is becoming a victum. No need to kill her if a
>>> Darkfriend gains control of her.
>>
>>You don't know either of them are Darkfriends, and Pevara is most
>>certainly not.
>>
>I don't know, true, but I have evidence.
You have explicit evidence to the contrary. If it were possible to
take the oath such a way as to fool those around you, then Galina or
Talene would have done it.
Bryon Wasserman
wass...@law.georgetown.edu.removetoreply
" Ahh It's the Rapture! Quick get Bart out of
the house before God comes!"
Jeremy Mario
"Richard M. Boye'" wrote:
>
> Bill E. Brooks wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:28:23 -0500, "Richard M. Boye'"
> > <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
> >
> > >Bill E. Brooks wrote:
<snip>
>
> > >You don't know either of them are Darkfriends, and Pevara is most
> > >certainly not.
>
> > I don't know, true, but I have evidence.
>
> What else is this "evidence" besides your won personal and non-textual
> suppositions like maybe "Mesaana found away to work around the Oath
> Rod?"
>
Circumstantial and indirect, but Seaine has to convince Pevara to
release Zerah from the command that is causing her to asphyxiate. It
seems strange that a non-BA sister would not automatically release her
from a killing command.
That being said, I think it would be lame of Jordan to have Pevara
swearing on an oath rod that she is not BA, and then getting away with
it on some sort of technicality. (Is RJ thinking of running for President?)
Cassandra
wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>>In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>> wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>
>>> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>[Old unresolved issues]
>>
>>> 14. Is Pevara BA?
>>
>>Pevara took an oath on the Oath Rod: "I will speak no word that is not
>>true." And then she said, "I am not Black Ajah." Quite conclusive.
>>
>I disagree that this is conclusive. For all we know, Mesaana may have
>conceived a way around this. She may have been an expert on Oath Rods
>in the AoL; that fits with being a teacher/researcher. For example,
>perhaps Pevara had previously sworn an oath with wording that
>indicates that any future oaths would be subordinated to it. Plus,
>consider that if Pevara is a Darkfriend, she has succeeded in forcing
>another non-Black sister, Zerah, to obey the Black Ajah. Mesaana has
>already done this once before with Elaida. Mesaana would have also
>succeeded in creating the kind of hysteria associated with a witch
>hunt. Notice that Zerah just happened to be a rebel, rather than
>Black Ajah. Mesaana could have discovered the rebel spies herself,
>and then used Pevara to reveal their presence, while directing
>attention away from those who really are Black Ajah.
Yes.
But this would be a _giant pain in the ass_.
We're talking track-down-and-kill-Jordan level of pain in the
ass.
Not to mention contrary to everything we've learned in the series.
Not to mention stupid.
If this happened, I would seriously mail bomb Jordan. Declare
myself the Hand of God and smite the bastard.
--
Cassandra
"I don't think war is noble.
And I don't like to think love is like war."
-Ani DiFranco, "Independence Day"
Alinet2
>20. What was the golden spires thing at the prologue.
The description a round valley with the golden spire sounds to me like a radio
telescope like the one in Puerto Rico (?)
Devin L. Ganger
in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Bill E. Brooks wrote:
Spoilers
> I disagree that this is conclusive. For all we know, Mesaana may have
> conceived a way around this. She may have been an expert on Oath Rods
> in the AoL; that fits with being a teacher/researcher. For example,
> perhaps Pevara had previously sworn an oath with wording that
> indicates that any future oaths would be subordinated to it.
I doubt that's possible; we saw *IN THE SAME SCENE* an example of what
happens when two Oaths sworn on the Rod conflict with each other. Do
you really think Jordan threw that in just for the hell of it? No, he
put it in precisely to tell us that Pevara IS NOT A DF.
As I said before, there is exactly *one* way that I can think of that
Mesanna might have gotten Pevara around this, but it reduces her to
uselessness for the entire duration of the BA Hunt, since as we've seen,
Pevara and Seaine re-take the Oaths at any time.
--
Devin L. Ganger <de...@premier1.net>
Chief Systems Administrator, Premier1 Internet Services, Sultan, WA, USA
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS
Bryon Wasserman
<jer...@totalsports.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Richard M. Boye'" wrote:
>>
>> Bill E. Brooks wrote:
>> >
>> > On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:28:23 -0500, "Richard M. Boye'"
>> > <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > >Bill E. Brooks wrote:
><snip>
>
>
>>
>> > >You don't know either of them are Darkfriends, and Pevara is most
>> > >certainly not.
>>
>> > I don't know, true, but I have evidence.
>>
>> What else is this "evidence" besides your won personal and non-textual
>> suppositions like maybe "Mesaana found away to work around the Oath
>> Rod?"
>>
>
>Circumstantial and indirect, but Seaine has to convince Pevara to
>release Zerah from the command that is causing her to asphyxiate. It
>seems strange that a non-BA sister would not automatically release her
>from a killing command.
Pevara was fairly outraged about the rebeles. I don't have any trouble
with her hesitating before letting her go. Treason is a fairly
serious matter among AS.
Erica Sadun
:>er...@galileo.cudenver.edu (Erica Sadun)
:
:>20. What was the golden spires thing at the prologue.
:
:The description a round valley with the golden spire sounds to me like a radio
:telescope like the one in Puerto Rico (?)
No. I answered this in previous threads. See dejanews.
This is why it needs to go into the FAQ.
Bill E. Brooks
<wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>Bill E. Brooks wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:28:23 -0500, "Richard M. Boye'"
>> <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Bill E. Brooks wrote:
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[14. Is Pevara BA?]
>
>
>> I agree with your analysis, but I don't think that we can conclude
>> _Talene_ is BA. In fact, the evidence is pretty weak for that. A
>> refusal to take a test is not proof of guilt. I suppose neither
>> Talene nor Pevara could be Darkfriends, but I find that unlikely. For
>> one thing, too much irony would be lost.
>
>This is silly.
>
>There are five sisters there, all adamant in their willingness to show
>they are not servants on the Dark One.
>
>They are all willing to show the others by taking the oaths.
>
Any of them could be Black Ajah themselves except Seaine, if there is
a way around the oath. They did show up to help Pevara rather
conveniently. Saerin did figure out what was going on quite easily.
How did she know they were testing for Darkfriends? And Talene just
happened to be a woman who used to be Seaine's friend.
>One refuses to take the oaths and _tries_ to _flee_.
>
>Why the fuck else would she be fleeing unless she was aware that the
>renewed oath of truthfulness would force her to expose herself!?!? (1)
>
1. She believes there is no Black Ajah; she said as much.
2. There is a long standing tradition in the Tower of never naming
anyone Black Ajah, and she does not want to break this tradition.
3. She is starting to feel that everyone is turning against her and
that she is in danger; she senses a witch hunt.
BTW, Romanda wants to steal the Oath Rod and use it in this same
manner. Lelaine and Egwene both oppose her in this. Lelaine called
it "close to being put to the question." Would you name them
Darkfriends too?
>Talene is a darkfriend.
>
>Pevara is not! She took the oath of truthfulness right in front of us
>and then announced "I am not Black Ajah." This is conclusive. What else
>do you want?
>
How about a POV from each? One's own thoughts don't lie.
>> >> I was suggesting here that Moridin is maneuvering Darkfriends (Therava
>> >> and Pevara) into positions of greater power. Galina got herself
>> >> captured, and so she is becoming a victum. No need to kill her if a
>> >> Darkfriend gains control of her.
>
>> >You don't know either of them are Darkfriends, and Pevara is most
>> >certainly not.
>
>> I don't know, true, but I have evidence.
>
>What else is this "evidence" besides your won personal and non-textual
>suppositions like maybe "Mesaana found away to work around the Oath
>Rod?"
>
1. Pevara's and Saerin's suspicious behavior.
2. A lot of coincidences in the scene in the chapter "The Extra Bit".
3. A general tendency for all involved to jump to conclusions about a
sister being Black Ajah.
4. Binding a sister to obey against her will.
5. The coincidence of others having to swear to obey. Mesaana, in
particular, is clearly after these kinds of oaths.
6. The general pattern of Egwene always succeeding and Elaida always
failing. After Elaida has made so many mistakes and alienated so many
people, why would RJ suddenly decide to rescue her from her failures?
The Pattern is running against her.
7. The irony of the fact that Elaida told Seaine not to get any help,
and then she did.
8. Pevara's family was killed by Darkfriends, just as Bors' was.
9. Pevara is a Red, and many of them are Darkfriends.
Now I ask you: what other evidence do you have against Talene? What
were the terrible transgressions that she committed as a Darkfriend?
Is it not true that other than this one scene, you have no evidence
against her?
-Bill Brooks
Bill E. Brooks
<wass...@law.georgetown.edu.REMOVETOREPLY> wrote:
>On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 04:21:00 GMT, wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net
>(Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:28:23 -0500, "Richard M. Boye'"
>><wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Bill E. Brooks wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>>>> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>I agree with your analysis, but I don't think that we can conclude
>>_Talene_ is BA. In fact, the evidence is pretty weak for that. A
>>refusal to take a test is not proof of guilt. I suppose neither
>>Talene nor Pevara could be Darkfriends, but I find that unlikely. For
>>one thing, too much irony would be lost.
>
>Even if her behavior wasn't incredibly suspicious, she's going to be
>forcibly interrogated at this point.
You are saying that they really are going to put her to the
question??? Just like the Hand of the Light???
>Having such a scene would be
>entirely pointless if they're going to find out five minutes later
>that she in fact was not.
>
Of course it is not pointless. RJ left it that way for us to
speculate about, and perhaps jump to the wrong conclusion about.
And just how are they going to find out? By torturing her into
confessing? That's further evidence that this is a witch hunt.
RJ has from the beginning of the series painted this as a mistake.
Why would he suddenly change his mind?
>>>> I was suggesting here that Moridin is maneuvering Darkfriends (Therava
>>>> and Pevara) into positions of greater power. Galina got herself
>>>> captured, and so she is becoming a victum. No need to kill her if a
>>>> Darkfriend gains control of her.
>>>
>>>You don't know either of them are Darkfriends, and Pevara is most
>>>certainly not.
>>>
>>I don't know, true, but I have evidence.
>
>You have explicit evidence to the contrary. If it were possible to
>take the oath such a way as to fool those around you, then Galina or
>Talene would have done it.
>
1. I've already agreed that Pevara and Talene cannot both be
Darkfriends.
2. Galina was not in on Mesaana's plan. She doesn't know. The Black
Ajah in general doesn't know, except for who Mesaana told.
-Bill Brooks
Bill E. Brooks
wrote:
><flashy-thing!> Remember only that on Sat, 31 Oct 1998 17:10:05 GMT,
>in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Bill E. Brooks wrote:
>
>Spoilers
>
>
>
>> I disagree that this is conclusive. For all we know, Mesaana may have
>> conceived a way around this. She may have been an expert on Oath Rods
>> in the AoL; that fits with being a teacher/researcher. For example,
>> perhaps Pevara had previously sworn an oath with wording that
>> indicates that any future oaths would be subordinated to it.
>
>I doubt that's possible; we saw *IN THE SAME SCENE* an example of what
>happens when two Oaths sworn on the Rod conflict with each other.
I realize that. But we don't know what happens if one Oath is worded
to override later oaths. "and this oath will supercede all later
oaths."
>Do
>you really think Jordan threw that in just for the hell of it?
No.
>No, he
>put it in precisely to tell us that Pevara IS NOT A DF.
>
Maybe. Or maybe he was just trying to eliminate some of the obvious
ways around the oath.
>As I said before, there is exactly *one* way that I can think of that
>Mesanna might have gotten Pevara around this, but it reduces her to
>uselessness for the entire duration of the BA Hunt, since as we've seen,
>Pevara and Seaine re-take the Oaths at any time.
>
I saw your other note with the quote.
What way is that?
-Bill Brooks
Bill E. Brooks
(Cassandra) wrote:
>In article <363b3d5a...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>>>In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>>> wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>>
>>>> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>[Old unresolved issues]
>>>
>>>> 14. Is Pevara BA?
>>>
>>>Pevara took an oath on the Oath Rod: "I will speak no word that is not
>>>true." And then she said, "I am not Black Ajah." Quite conclusive.
>>>
>>I disagree that this is conclusive. For all we know, Mesaana may have
>>conceived a way around this. She may have been an expert on Oath Rods
>>in the AoL; that fits with being a teacher/researcher. For example,
>>perhaps Pevara had previously sworn an oath with wording that
>>indicates that any future oaths would be subordinated to it. Plus,
>>consider that if Pevara is a Darkfriend, she has succeeded in forcing
>>another non-Black sister, Zerah, to obey the Black Ajah. Mesaana has
>>already done this once before with Elaida. Mesaana would have also
>>succeeded in creating the kind of hysteria associated with a witch
>>hunt. Notice that Zerah just happened to be a rebel, rather than
>>Black Ajah. Mesaana could have discovered the rebel spies herself,
>>and then used Pevara to reveal their presence, while directing
>>attention away from those who really are Black Ajah.
>
>Not to mention contrary to everything we've learned in the series.
Not true. We've learned that an inquisition is a mistake in the
series. We've learned that things are not always as they appear, such
as Halima. Even Egwene, the most clever person in the series IMO,
fell for that trick. Even I would have.
And we still _don't_ know what those numbers on the Oath Rods mean.
-Bill Brooks
Bryon Wasserman
(Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>Even if her behavior wasn't incredibly suspicious, she's going to be
>>forcibly interrogated at this point.
>
>You are saying that they really are going to put her to the
>question??? Just like the Hand of the Light???
Yes , they are. If you think that they are going to nag her for a
while and then let her go with a warning, then you are crazy. She is
going to be tortured. Adeleas and Vandene are willing to do it, Romada
is willing to do it to everyone she suspects. They are going to
torture her until they know one way or the other.
>>Having such a scene would be
>>entirely pointless if they're going to find out five minutes later
>>that she in fact was not.
>>
>Of course it is not pointless. RJ left it that way for us to
>speculate about, and perhaps jump to the wrong conclusion about.
He lets us speculate about matters that are not about to be resolved
immediately. The next time that we see Seiane and Pevara they will
know one way or the other. It would be ridiculous to have such a
scene, if we are told immediately afterwards "oh, well, I guess she
wasn't a darkfriend"
>And just how are they going to find out? By torturing her into
>confessing? That's further evidence that this is a witch hunt.
Yes, they are going to torture her into confessing or swearing the
oath. . She is not leaving until they know one way or the other. They
are at war right now and torture is very common when one is at war.
>RJ has from the beginning of the series painted this as a mistake.
>Why would he suddenly change his mind?
Painted what as a mistake?Torture? They cannot let her go without
knowing one way or the other. Their entire investigation would be
dead.
Sandy
>In article <19981101095519...@ng-fi1.aol.com> ali...@aol.com
(Alinet2) writes:
>:>er...@galileo.cudenver.edu (Erica Sadun)
>:
>:>20. What was the golden spires thing at the prologue.
>:
>:The description a round valley with the golden spire sounds to me like a
radio
>:telescope like the one in Puerto Rico (?)
>
>
>No. I answered this in previous threads. See dejanews.
>This is why it needs to go into the FAQ.
You answered what the golden spires thingy was? Which thread(s)?
--
Sandy-- http://www.jps.net/rnros/
"Can you not see that freedom is worth more than ribbons?"
Craig Moe
>In article <19981101095519...@ng-fi1.aol.com> ali...@aol.com
>(Alinet2) writes:
>:>er...@galileo.cudenver.edu (Erica Sadun)
>:
>:>20. What was the golden spires thing at the prologue.
>:
>:The description a round valley with the golden spire sounds to me like a
>:radio telescope like the one in Puerto Rico (?)
>
>No. I answered this in previous threads. See dejanews.
>This is why it needs to go into the FAQ.
Your answer poses more questions than it solves. For instance, why do
none of the Borderlanders, who show a propensity for remembering
long-dead cities (eg Manatheren, Aridhol, the list whatshisface in TGH
spouts off) remember this country, which dissappeared at the same time?
And why is the only evidence it ever existed sticking at such an odd angle
out of a hill side?
Bill E. Brooks
(Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>Now I ask you: what other evidence do you have against Talene? What
>were the terrible transgressions that she committed as a Darkfriend?
>Is it not true that other than this one scene, you have no evidence
>against her?
>
Jim Folsom told me by email that there _is_ additional evidence
against Talene under his post "POD Forsaken orders spoiler". It says
that Talene was carrying Mesaana's orders when she bumped into the
Seaine and Pevara. This evidence is strong enough to force me to move
to a Devil's Advocate position, but I still think that the idea could
have come from one of the other sisters with her, and she just agreed
with it vehemently.
-Bill Brooks
Ben Ryan
> This whole thread is getting a little ridiculous. You have _zero_ evidence
> for this.
ObInsubstantialContribution: But since when has that stopped any
of us?
--
Ben Ryan http://www.core.binghamton.edu/~mobius
"And when I licked her, she tasted of
starbeams, moonrise, and raspberry Pez." -Tshen, rasfwr-j
Richard M. Boye'
>
> In article <363c87a9....@news.campus.mci.net>,
> wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>
> >
> > Now I ask you: what other evidence do you have against Talene? What
> > were the terrible transgressions that she committed as a Darkfriend?
> > Is it not true that other than this one scene, you have no evidence
> > against her?
> >
>
> information did Mesaana order Alviarin to obtain?
>
> That's right. What are all the Heads of the Ajahs whispering in corners
> about, is what.
Know, this section left me a little confused.
What is "Elaida's mad directive" that the hall was unable to prevent?
And what are the Heads of Ajahs planning away from the Hall?
Now, is _Talene_ the head of the Greens is TV? I'm not sure if I read it
correctly, but I think Talene was insinuating that Seaine and Pevara
_might_ be the heads of their respective Ajahs. Because that would mean
that of the seven Ajahs, at least two were lead by BA, and if Alviarin
was the leader of the White, that makes three. Although I wonder about
that other senior White (Doreine?) that Alviarin took note of in CoS.
We know Pevara wasn't, but is it possible that she might be now?
Politics and events have been brutal on the Reds' natural pool of those
who might lead them.
Three Sitters, who ordinarily would be among the foremost, were exiled,
Teslyn was dispatched off to Ebou Dar and Elaida herself is inelligeble.
The other thing I have been wondering about is should we be able to
construe Seaine's lack of fury at Zarah as her growing realization that
the Rebels were probabaly right?
And _what_ are the Sitters conferring secretly about, as Mesaana noted?
I read this two ways. 1) That the Sitters are finally starting to
consider deposing Elaida (and inviting Egwene?) 2) Or Mesaana is
commenting on Seaine and Pevara's frequent meetings. How many sisters
have they questions and sworn, anyway? They'd been at it for weeks, but
Zarah was their first catch.
And while we're here, is anyone curious in the slightest about the fates
of Tylin, Teslyn and Joline?
Brian D. Ritchie
Spoilers
>What is "Elaida's mad directive" that the hall was unable to prevent?
I thought it was the directive that AS enter the territory of another ajah
at their own risk.
>And what are the Heads of Ajahs planning away from the Hall?
Deposing Elaida, or at least restricting her power, is my guess.
--
Brian Ritchie "A billion here, a billion there - sooner or later
br...@prism.gatech.edu it adds up to real money." -- Everett Dirksen
Richard M. Boye'
>
> Richard M. Boye' (wa...@webspan.net) wrote:
>
> : And while we're here, is anyone curious in the slightest about the fates
> : of Tylin, Teslyn and Joline?
>
> been leashed or slain. But Tylin...who knows. Maybe she swore to them,
> which would help to explain how they got Altaran forces moving so fast.
Oh, I don't know on either count.
One of the Seanchan Generals says words to the effect that the Altaran
lords were eager to turn over on the Queen in exchange for their owm
power, so that couls be construed to mean that Tylin is off somewhere. I
don't think Tylin, as she was portrayed, would take the Oaths, though.
Or maybe she would. She seemed to be very flexible in knowing when to
bow to a stronger power.
I hope she did, because if she refused, well, the Seanchan impale those
who refuse and aren't of the Blood, like one of the rulers of either
Tarabon or Arad Doman that they caught. Either Alsalam or Andric, I
forget.
As for Teslyn and Joline, well, although they didn't believe Nynaeve, at
least they _might_ have been on the look out for something. I wouldn't
be surprised if they are holed up in an attic somewhere playing Anne
Frank to Suroth's Hitler.
Richard M. Boye'
>
> On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 22:39:39 -0500, "Richard M. Boye'"
> <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>
> >Know, this section left me a little confused.
> >
>
> exclusive right to manage Rand.
Okay.
> >Now, is _Talene_ the head of the Greens is TV?
> > I'm not sure if I read it
> >correctly, but I think Talene was insinuating that Seaine and Pevara
> >_might_ be the heads of their respective Ajahs. Because that would mean
> >that of the seven Ajahs, at least two were lead by BA, and if Alviarin
> >was the leader of the White, that makes three. Although I wonder about
> >that other senior White (Doreine?) that Alviarin took note of in CoS.
>
> "The great secret of who headed the Ajahs was none to her-Every Black
> sister was required to relay to the supreme council every whisper
> inside her supposed Ajah-but only Galina among them had been Black"PoD
> p.498.
Oh, I seemed to forget that. This means that Alviarin was _not_ the head
of the White Ajah then. But was she a Sitter?
> >We know Pevara wasn't, but is it possible that she might be now?
> >Politics and events have been brutal on the Reds' natural pool of those
> >who might lead them.
>
> Have the Reds officially acknowledged Galina's disappearance?
Well, I don't know about "officialy." The identity of the Red
Generalisima is kept secret. But they have to know that Galina went off
to fetch herself a Dragon, and never came back, and that the Dragon is
still flitting around unfettered. I think that the survivors of Dumai's
Wells are still hanging out in one of the bridge towns, though so the
exact story is prolly still unknown.
But there had to have been a "Second" who would step up to the plate in
her absence. I'd guess it would have been one of the Sitters, but it's
not Teslyn.
> >And while we're here, is anyone curious in the slightest about the fates
> >of Tylin, Teslyn and Joline?
> Yes, but I'm a hell of a lot more curious about the fourth party in
> Ebou Dar.
Hmm?
rajesh...@my-dejanews.com
wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:56:45 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >In article <363b3d5a...@news.campus.mci.net>,
> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
> >> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
> >> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >[Old unresolved issues]
> >> >
> >> >> 14. Is Pevara BA?
> >> >
> >> >Pevara took an oath on the Oath Rod: "I will speak no word that is not
> >> >true." And then she said, "I am not Black Ajah." Quite conclusive.
> >> >
> >> I disagree that this is conclusive. For all we know, Mesaana may have
> >> conceived a way around this. She may have been an expert on Oath Rods
> >> in the AoL; that fits with being a teacher/researcher.
> >
> >Mesaana was "unsuitable for research." She could only teach what others had
> >discovered already. This was why she turned to the DO in the first place.
> >
> 1. The Collam Daan may have had very high standards. No one ever said
> Mesaana was incompetent at research.
> 2. She may just be applying someone else's research.
This whole thread is getting a little ridiculous. You have _zero_ evidence
for this.
> My evidence is that Pevara has been acting very suspiciously, and I am
> looking for some way to explain it. And the truth is, if there were a
> way around the oath rod that Darkfriends intended to use, they would
> offer as much proof as they could that there _is_ no way, in order to
> discourage curiosity.
Evidence? How exactly has Pevara been acting "suspiciously"? Why is there
a need to "explain" this by naming her DF?
> As soon as Aes Sedai swear an oath to obey, they have to do whatever
> she says, regardless of how outrageous it is. Look at what she has
> done to Elaida.
Be consistent. Pevara swore to tell the truth and said she is not a DF. And
AS who swear Oaths are not Asimov's robots.
Besides, recall why Semirhage turned to the DO. She did not want to be
"bound" never to know her pleasures again. There was no question of
squirming through that binding in the same way that there is no question of
squirming through cracks to say "I'm not a DF" and meaning something else.
This whole "Oath to circumvent another Oath" idea has no merit.
> >That Zerah was a SAS spy sent to the
> >Tower to sow seeds of discontent and chaos, without the BA taking any hand
in
> >it, works to Mesaana's advantage, not detriment, especially if Zerah is free
> >of any Oath that might implicate the BA.
> >
> And she used that information to gain control of her. Mesaana would
> believes that Zerah can sow discontent and chaos far better if she
> follows Mesaana's own plans.
Again, this makes no sense to me. SAS sent the spies for their own reasons.
Mesaana is doing what she does for her own reasons. I see _no_ need to
assign the DF tag to Pevara, or importance to Zerah, merely because of a
stubborn belief in Mesaana's supposed expertise in inventing Oaths that
circumvent other Oaths.
> >> >> >New questions/issues
> >If Pevara is a DF (I don't believe this for a second), she would be
controlled
> >by Alviarin and Mesaana. Are you saying Moridin also controls Pevara, or
that
> >he controls Mesaana?
> >
> There are several possibilities:
> 1. Moridin controls Mesaana who controls Pevara (perhaps through
> Alviarin).
> 2. Moridin controls Pevara directly.
> 3. Mesaana controls Pevara, but Moridin doesn't control Mesaana.
>
> #1 best fits my theory.
> #2 fits, but undermines some of my evidence.
> #3 fits the Pevara is a DF theory, but not the Oath Rod theory.
My _conclusion_, that Pevara is not a DF, needs no calisthenics of (un)reason.
> >> >> 12. Who got the worse end of the lightning bolts generated by Rand?
> >> >
>
> >> >The Seanchan, on the other hand, lost, period. "The Ever Victorious Army
had
> >> >suffered a second devastating defeat on these shores." Or something like
> >> >that.
> >> >
> >> Both sides believed they had lost.
> >
> >Rand believed he had lost because he killed some of his own men and because
> >he did not know whether he had inflicted any damage on the Seanchan. That
> >qualifies as a perceived loss, not a real one.
>
> >The Seanchan, on the other
> >hand, _know_ that they lost. Badly. A second time. At the hands of the same
> >man.
> >
> That was a perceived loss too. I say it was a defensive victory for
> the Seanchan, if a Pyrrhic one. They held Ebou Dar, and Rand had to
> retreat. Part of the reason why the Seanchan perceived it as a loss
> was because Suroth ordered them to destroy Rand's army, and they
> failed to do that.
The High Lord Turak's defeat was spectacular. It was the first defeat of
the EVA. The second one was equally disastrous. From the man's comments (I
forget his name) in that last passage, all those thousands of lightning bolts
pretty much shredded the Seanchan army. He was worried about explaining to
Suroth, and to the Empress as well. Similar to how Suroth was worried about
explaining to the Empress that Turak had led them to a slaughter. A loss
comparable to the one in TGH.
--
Rajesh
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
rajesh...@my-dejanews.com
wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>
> Now I ask you: what other evidence do you have against Talene? What
> were the terrible transgressions that she committed as a Darkfriend?
> Is it not true that other than this one scene, you have no evidence
> against her?
>
What information did Talene want to extract from Seaine and Pevara? What
information did Mesaana order Alviarin to obtain?
That's right. What are all the Heads of the Ajahs whispering in corners
about, is what.
--
Devin L. Ganger
in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Jeremy Mario wrote:
Spoiler space
> Circumstantial and indirect, but Seaine has to convince Pevara to
> release Zerah from the command that is causing her to asphyxiate. It
> seems strange that a non-BA sister would not automatically release her
> from a killing command.
I read that scene as Seaine was the first to realize exactly what the
hell was happening -- that Zerah wasn't trying to keep from admitting
she was a DF, but rather was caught between two conflicting Oaths.
Pevara was pretty sure that Zerah was a Darkfriend and wasn't yet
willing to consider any alternatives.
Devin L. Ganger
in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Bill E. Brooks wrote:
> I realize that. But we don't know what happens if one Oath is worded
> to override later oaths. "and this oath will supercede all later
> oaths."
Actually, yes we *do* know what happens when one Oath is worded to
override later oaths.
Once you take an Oath, bound by the Rod, you are *UNABLE* to take any
action that would conflict with it. If an Oath made on the Rod were
stated to override any other oath, including those made on the Rod, then
your previous Oath would not allow you to be bound. You literally
wouldn't be able to get your mouth open to say the words.
Erica Sadun
:
:Your answer poses more questions than it solves. For instance, why do
:none of the Borderlanders, who show a propensity for remembering
:long-dead cities (eg Manatheren, Aridhol, the list whatshisface in TGH
:spouts off) remember this country, which dissappeared at the same time?
:And why is the only evidence it ever existed sticking at such an odd angle
:out of a hill side?
The single unifying event that defined the borderlands was the Trolloc
wars. Surely they would remember the horror of the first sweep
out of the blight and the loss of Barsine of the golden spires.
Surely they picked that spot for their treaty with respect to
the memory of the events that transpired there.
-- E
Chris Hammock
[Pevara still might be Black Ajah? snipped]
: This whole thread is getting a little ridiculous. You have _zero_ evidence
: for this.
But since when has that stopped any of us?
--
---
With a few small modifications, any canoe can travel through time.
-- Pokey the Penguin
Cassandra
wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>On 1 Nov 1998 10:10:21 GMT, fai...@DEATH-TO-SPAM-yahoo.com
>(Cassandra) wrote:
>
>>In article <363b3d5a...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>>wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
<snip Pevara could be BA, through some twisted trick>
>>
>>Not to mention contrary to everything we've learned in the series.
>>
>Not true. We've learned that an inquisition is a mistake in the
>series.
When have we learned this? Cite examples.
> We've learned that things are not always as they appear, such
>as Halima. Even Egwene, the most clever person in the series IMO,
>fell for that trick. Even I would have.
Yes, but we, the readers, know that Halima is Eeeevil. Things are not
always as they appear. A "woman" like Halima can wield saidin. But
things like this have always been (somewhat logically) explained.
Random men are not jumping out of the woodwork channeling saidar.
People have not been running around breaking the oaths, unless they're BA.
And we have evidence that the oaths cannot be broken without being
removed by the Oath Rod. If the BA had the resources to override the
OR oaths, why would they swear new ones?
>And we still _don't_ know what those numbers on the Oath Rods mean.
No, we don't. (Question: Do Oaths have to be removed by the same OR
they were sworn on? This could get tricky for the BA.)
But they probably don't allow oaths that conflict with other oaths.
Remember what happened to (Zerah?) when Pevara tried to make her lie?
If the BA swore an oath to say, obey GLotD, and then had to swear to
walk in the Light, they probably couldn't do it. If they could, it would
invalidate the whole idea of Oath Rods.
Craig Moe
>The single unifying event that defined the borderlands was the Trolloc
>wars. Surely they would remember the horror of the first sweep
>out of the blight and the loss of Barsine of the golden spires.
>Surely they picked that spot for their treaty with respect to
>the memory of the events that transpired there.
Ethenielle seems to be under the impression that the sight was chosen
because superstition would keep villagers away. Her Aes Sedai has said
it's an artifact of the Age of Legends, and apparantly was never
disagreed with. The Trolloc Wars are never mentioned.
If Barsine is being immortalized, their publicists are doing a lousy job.
Ranma Al'Thor
: And while we're here, is anyone curious in the slightest about the fates
: of Tylin, Teslyn and Joline?
I'm curious about Tylin. I'm pretty sure Teslyn and Joline have either
been leashed or slain. But Tylin...who knows. Maybe she swore to them,
which would help to explain how they got Altaran forces moving so fast.
--
John Walter Biles : MA-History, Ph.D Wannabe at U. Kansas
ra...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
rh...@tass.org http://www.tass.org/~rhea/falcon.html
rh...@maison-otaku.net http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/
"I would not mind you in my head, Lews Therin said, sounding almost
sane, "if you were not so clearly mad."
Bryon Wasserman
<wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>Know, this section left me a little confused.
>
>What is "Elaida's mad directive" that the hall was unable to prevent?
I thought that this was the declaration regarding the tower's
exclusive right to manage Rand.
>And what are the Heads of Ajahs planning away from the Hall?
I think that they are getting ready to boot Elaida.
>Now, is _Talene_ the head of the Greens is TV?
> I'm not sure if I read it
>correctly, but I think Talene was insinuating that Seaine and Pevara
>_might_ be the heads of their respective Ajahs. Because that would mean
>that of the seven Ajahs, at least two were lead by BA, and if Alviarin
>was the leader of the White, that makes three. Although I wonder about
>that other senior White (Doreine?) that Alviarin took note of in CoS.
"The great secret of who headed the Ajahs was none to her-Every Black
sister was required to relay to the supreme council every whisper
inside her supposed Ajah-but only Galina among them had been Black"PoD
p.498.
>We know Pevara wasn't, but is it possible that she might be now?
>Politics and events have been brutal on the Reds' natural pool of those
>who might lead them.
Have the Reds officially acknowledged Galina's disappearance? Is this
information common knowledge at this point? I would expect them to
know by now, but Jordan has a habit of instituting slective
ignorance. PoD, p498
>And while we're here, is anyone curious in the slightest about the fates
>of Tylin, Teslyn and Joline?
>
Yes, but I'm a hell of a lot more curious about the fourth party in
Ebou Dar.
Craig Moe
>Know, this section left me a little confused.
>
>What is "Elaida's mad directive" that the hall was unable to prevent?
Probably the giving Ajahs control over anyone found in their quarters,
or the Rand proclaimation.
>And what are the Heads of Ajahs planning away from the Hall?
Deposing Elaida is the only option I've seen mentioned.
>Now, is _Talene_ the head of the Greens is TV? I'm not sure if I read it
>correctly, but I think Talene was insinuating that Seaine and Pevara
>_might_ be the heads of their respective Ajahs. Because that would mean
>that of the seven Ajahs, at least two were lead by BA, and if Alviarin
>was the leader of the White, that makes three. Although I wonder about
>that other senior White (Doreine?) that Alviarin took note of in CoS.
No and no. Galina's the only Ajah Head who's BA, and only two sitters are
heads of their Ajahs, Ferane Neheran and Suana Dragand. (p 498)
I enjoyed the fact that it was Alviarin's orders that resulted in Talene
being exposed, though.
>We know Pevara wasn't, but is it possible that she might be now?
>Politics and events have been brutal on the Reds' natural pool of those
>who might lead them.
Nothing has been mentioned to lead me to believe Galina's been replaced.
>And _what_ are the Sitters conferring secretly about, as Mesaana noted?
Ajah Heads, not sitters.
>I read this two ways. 1) That the Sitters are finally starting to
>consider deposing Elaida (and inviting Egwene?) 2) Or Mesaana is
>commenting on Seaine and Pevara's frequent meetings. How many sisters
>have they questions and sworn, anyway? They'd been at it for weeks, but
>Zarah was their first catch.
Zarah was their first interrogation, I believe.
>And while we're here, is anyone curious in the slightest about the fates
>of Tylin, Teslyn and Joline?
Tylin, no. She's probably still on the throne, under Seanchan watch. The
other two, very much so.
rajesh...@my-dejanews.com
> > for this.
>
> of us?
>
Not insubstantial. It's the Rule. Bill Brooks, though, is stretching even
the Rule way beyond its limit.
rajesh...@my-dejanews.com
wa...@webspan.net wrote:
> rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <363c87a9....@news.campus.mci.net>,
> > > were the terrible transgressions that she committed as a Darkfriend?
> > > Is it not true that other than this one scene, you have no evidence
> > > against her?
> > >
> >
> > What information did Talene want to extract from Seaine and Pevara? What
> > information did Mesaana order Alviarin to obtain?
> >
> > That's right. What are all the Heads of the Ajahs whispering in corners
> > about, is what.
>
>
> What is "Elaida's mad directive" that the hall was unable to prevent?
>
I think they have finally accepted the presence of the Black Ajah. After
Nynaeve & Co. return from Falme, Elaida accosts them (in Nynaeve's room,
IIRC) about the BA. If Elaida suspected it then, others must have too.
All the succeeding events up to the present must have proved it to most of
the, er, sensible AS that the BA was real.
This would be dangerous/disadvantageous to the BA and Mesaana.
The other possibility is that the news of Rand's kidnapping and the subsequent
mess is not as secret as Elaida thinks it is. May be someone saw fit to
ask <gasp> Gawyn a few questions and, <splutter> he may have answered them.
This would be one nail in Elaida's coffin.
> Now, is _Talene_ the head of the Greens is TV? I'm not sure if I read it
> correctly, but I think Talene was insinuating that Seaine and Pevara
> _might_ be the heads of their respective Ajahs. Because that would mean
> that of the seven Ajahs, at least two were lead by BA, and if Alviarin
> was the leader of the White, that makes three. Although I wonder about
> that other senior White (Doreine?) that Alviarin took note of in CoS.
Alviarin's thoughts revolve around having to use Sitters to find out just
who the Heads of the Ajahs are, and how she will have to go through the
many layers of camouflage to get the Sitters to do it. We see Talene doing
exactly what Alviarin wants her to - find out who the Heads are, and then
what they are up to.
As for Talene's approach, it seemed silly. I can't imagine Talene intimidating
Pevara into revealing who the Head is. No matter the backing of the other
Sitters she brought along.
> We know Pevara wasn't [the Head], but is it possible that she might be now?
Quite.
> The other thing I have been wondering about is should we be able to
> construe Seaine's lack of fury at Zarah as her growing realization that
> the Rebels were probabaly right?
I took that to mean that Seaine no longer thought that the rebels are as
filthy as Pevara thinks they are; that the rebellion may have come from
a good conscience; that those AS _really_ thought they were doing the Right
Thing.
> And _what_ are the Sitters conferring secretly about, as Mesaana noted?
> I read this two ways. 1) That the Sitters are finally starting to
> consider deposing Elaida (and inviting Egwene?) 2) Or Mesaana is
> commenting on Seaine and Pevara's frequent meetings. How many sisters
> have they questions and sworn, anyway? They'd been at it for weeks, but
> Zarah was their first catch.
See above.
> And while we're here, is anyone curious in the slightest about the fates
> of Tylin, Teslyn and Joline?
I expect Teslyn and Joline are collared. Actually, I forced myself to
become totally incurious as the book ended and there was nothing about
the Seanchan _in_ Ebou Dar. I hope to remain that way for another 2 years
when I can RAFO.
Well, before I say that, let me just add that it is quite possible that
Mat is not a prisoner of the Seanchan, that he was rescued by Thom
or one of the others, that he is recuperating in Setalle Annan's inn. And
that he may wake up just in time to see the Corenne float into Ebou Dar.
_Now_ I have become totally resigned to RAFO.
Bill E. Brooks
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On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 01:47:13 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>In article <363c87a9....@news.campus.mci.net>,
> wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>
>>
>> Now I ask you: what other evidence do you have against Talene? What
>> were the terrible transgressions that she committed as a Darkfriend?
>> Is it not true that other than this one scene, you have no evidence
>> against her?
>>
>
>What information did Talene want to extract from Seaine and Pevara? What
>information did Mesaana order Alviarin to obtain?
>
>That's right. What are all the Heads of the Ajahs whispering in corners
>about, is what.
>
Ok, I give. You are right.
You are not going to believe this, but I actually thought of this once
but dismissed it by mistake because
1. Seaine and Pevara are 2, not 6.
2. I knew neither of them were the sisters Mesaana wanted checked out.
But now I see that Alviarin sent her whole network out, and Talene had
the misfortune of stumbling into Seaine and Pevara while following a
false lead. That _is_ ironic.
I am still going to complain though that Seaine and co. didn't know
that Mesaana was up to anything, and they were just lucky that they
didn't put an innocent sister to the question.
-Bill Brooks
Bill E. Brooks
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On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 18:50:23 GMT, Bryon Wasserman
<wass...@law.georgetown.edu.REMOVETOREPLY> wrote:
>On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 18:05:46 GMT, wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net
>(Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>
>>>Even if her behavior wasn't incredibly suspicious, she's going to be
>>>forcibly interrogated at this point.
>>
>>You are saying that they really are going to put her to the
>>question??? Just like the Hand of the Light???
>
>Yes , they are. If you think that they are going to nag her for a
>while and then let her go with a warning, then you are crazy. She is
>going to be tortured. Adeleas and Vandene are willing to do it, Romada
>is willing to do it to everyone she suspects. They are going to
>torture her until they know one way or the other.
>
I suppose you are right. Suddenly Verin's (and Moghedien's!) method
of using Compulsion to get information seems much better. At least it
is more humane. I can't believe I just found something to admire in
Moghedien.
Are you sure Romanda didn't plan to steal the Oath Rod and use it for
the same purpose? Otherwise, torturing does no good, because you can
never know whether you are torturing someone into telling the truth or
lying.
One thing that bugged me about TPoD is that none of Ispan's
information was revealed. Why was this kept from the readers?
I still don't like this. I can't help thinking that in the long run,
the Dark One is going to turn this to his advantage, just as he is
turning Rand's hardness to his advantage.
>>>Having such a scene would be
>>>entirely pointless if they're going to find out five minutes later
>>>that she in fact was not.
>>>
>>Of course it is not pointless. RJ left it that way for us to
>>speculate about, and perhaps jump to the wrong conclusion about.
>
>He lets us speculate about matters that are not about to be resolved
>immediately. The next time that we see Seiane and Pevara they will
>know one way or the other. It would be ridiculous to have such a
>scene, if we are told immediately afterwards "oh, well, I guess she
>wasn't a darkfriend"
>
Ok. I see your point now.
>>And just how are they going to find out? By torturing her into
>>confessing? That's further evidence that this is a witch hunt.
>
>Yes, they are going to torture her into confessing or swearing the
>oath. . She is not leaving until they know one way or the other. They
>are at war right now and torture is very common when one is at war.
>
That doesn't mean that it is a good idea.
-Bill Brooks
Bill E. Brooks
>In article <363bcd96...@news.campus.mci.net>,
> wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:56:45 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> >In article <363b3d5a...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>> >> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >[Old unresolved issues]
>> >> >
>> >> >> 14. Is Pevara BA?
>> >> >
>> >> >Pevara took an oath on the Oath Rod: "I will speak no word that is not
>> >> >true." And then she said, "I am not Black Ajah." Quite conclusive.
>> >> >
>> >> I disagree that this is conclusive. For all we know, Mesaana may have
>> >> conceived a way around this. She may have been an expert on Oath Rods
>> >> in the AoL; that fits with being a teacher/researcher.
>> >
>> >Mesaana was "unsuitable for research." She could only teach what others had
>> >discovered already. This was why she turned to the DO in the first place.
>> >
>> 1. The Collam Daan may have had very high standards. No one ever said
>> Mesaana was incompetent at research.
>> 2. She may just be applying someone else's research.
>
>This whole thread is getting a little ridiculous. You have _zero_ evidence
>for this.
>
Of course I have evidence. Mesaana is a teacher/research, she lived
in the AoL, and Oath Rods were common in that time. I didn't need
evidence for #1 and #2 above because you demanded that I explain how
Mesaana being a teacher/researcher could be related to knowing about
Oath Rods. You insult my intelligence with that zero evidence
nonsense.
>> My evidence is that Pevara has been acting very suspiciously, and I am
>> looking for some way to explain it. And the truth is, if there were a
>> way around the oath rod that Darkfriends intended to use, they would
>> offer as much proof as they could that there _is_ no way, in order to
>> discourage curiosity.
>
>Evidence? How exactly has Pevara been acting "suspiciously"? Why is there
>a need to "explain" this by naming her DF?
>
I mentioned a lot of suspicious activity elsewhere in this thread, if
you are interested. Forcing someone to swear an oath to obey, and
putting someone to the question, for example, seem suspicious to me,
because I associate them with evil. They _are_ evil, unless they are
being used to stop a greater evil. They always cause me to
immediately question the motives of the people involved.
>> As soon as Aes Sedai swear an oath to obey, they have to do whatever
>> she says, regardless of how outrageous it is. Look at what she has
>> done to Elaida.
>
>Be consistent. Pevara swore to tell the truth and said she is not a DF. And
>AS who swear Oaths are not Asimov's robots.
>
There is no inconsistency here. Victums would not have had the
supercession protection.
>Besides, recall why Semirhage turned to the DO. She did not want to be
>"bound" never to know her pleasures again. There was no question of
>squirming through that binding in the same way that there is no question of
>squirming through cracks to say "I'm not a DF" and meaning something else.
>
>This whole "Oath to circumvent another Oath" idea has no merit.
>
Perhaps you are right, but it was the best I could come up with. I
was trying to explain something that made no sense to me.
>> >That Zerah was a SAS spy sent to the
>> >Tower to sow seeds of discontent and chaos, without the BA taking any hand
>in
>> >it, works to Mesaana's advantage, not detriment, especially if Zerah is free
>> >of any Oath that might implicate the BA.
>> >
>> And she used that information to gain control of her. Mesaana would
>> believe[s] that Zerah can sow discontent and chaos far better if she
>> follows Mesaana's own plans.
>
>Again, this makes no sense to me. SAS sent the spies for their own reasons.
>Mesaana is doing what she does for her own reasons. I see _no_ need to
>assign the DF tag to Pevara, or importance to Zerah, merely because of a
>stubborn belief in Mesaana's supposed expertise in inventing Oaths that
>circumvent other Oaths.
>
Consider that they forced Zerah to swear an oath to obey, and they had
no intention of releasing her whether she was Black Ajah, rebel, or
neither. Sure, this was explained, but a better explanation for this
is that she is Black Ajah. This means that this evidence is in my
favor, not yours.
>> >> >> >New questions/issues
>
>> >If Pevara is a DF (I don't believe this for a second), she would be
>controlled
>> >by Alviarin and Mesaana. Are you saying Moridin also controls Pevara, or
>that
>> >he controls Mesaana?
>> >
>> There are several possibilities:
>> 1. Moridin controls Mesaana who controls Pevara (perhaps through
>> Alviarin).
>> 2. Moridin controls Pevara directly.
>> 3. Mesaana controls Pevara, but Moridin doesn't control Mesaana.
>>
>> #1 best fits my theory.
>> #2 fits, but undermines some of my evidence.
>> #3 fits the Pevara is a DF theory, but not the Oath Rod theory.
>
>My _conclusion_, that Pevara is not a DF, needs no calisthenics of (un)reason.
>
This is a defense, not a support. For that, three explanations are
better than one. You don't seem to understand this.
>> That was a perceived loss too. I say it was a defensive victory for
>> the Seanchan, if a Pyrrhic one. They held Ebou Dar, and Rand had to
>> retreat. Part of the reason why the Seanchan perceived it as a loss
>> was because Suroth ordered them to destroy Rand's army, and they
>> failed to do that.
>
>The High Lord Turak's defeat was spectacular. It was the first defeat of
>the EVA. The second one was equally disastrous. From the man's comments (I
>forget his name) in that last passage, all those thousands of lightning bolts
>pretty much shredded the Seanchan army. He was worried about explaining to
>Suroth, and to the Empress as well. Similar to how Suroth was worried about
>explaining to the Empress that Turak had led them to a slaughter. A loss
>comparable to the one in TGH.
>
You just explained a Pyrrhic victory, not a defeat. If it had been a
defeat for the Seanchan, Rand would have pushed the Seanchan out of
Ebou Dar. Rand made an attack but gained no territory. Land
exchanged determines who wins a battle. The defender wins if no land
is exchanged.
Rand lost the battle, but won the campaign, because he did force the
Seanchan out of those mountains. The Seanchan may have been referring
to the campaign, instead.
-Bill Brooks
Trent Goulding
<wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>Bryon Wasserman wrote:
>> Yes, but I'm a hell of a lot more curious about the fourth party in
>> Ebou Dar.
>Hmm?
Mat, silly.
--
Trent Goulding
goul...@student.REMOVE.law.ucla.edu
Daniel Robertson
Bill E. Brooks wrote in message <363a315a...@news.campus.mci.net>...
>On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 17:19:10 GMT, ko...@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <wkk91i2...@dsv.su.se>,
>>Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>>>
>>>In <F1Mo...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>>>FAQueen Pam Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Phew! Having finally read/skimmed most of the POD commentary, here is
>>>> my list of old questions resolved, old questions to be revisited, and
>>>> new questions.
>>>> Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
><LoC, 6, 133> Sammael:
>"Al'Thor would need help. Help--that could explain his supposed luck
>so far. 'Have you learned where al'Thor is hiding Asmodean?'"
>
>This seems to me to indicate _very_ strongly that Sammael did not know
>that Asmodean was dead.
>
>I think Graendal killed Asmodean.
>
>-Bill Brooks
At the time Graendal believed that Sammy was Nae'blis - wouldn't she have
told him that Asmo was dead by her hand if she had done it? (dont bother
flaming me if im wrong - its been a while since i read that bit).
Daniel
...---...
Daniel Robertson
donr...@ihug.co.nz
icq uin = 745426
Bryon Wasserman
>> "The great secret of who headed the Ajahs was none to her-Every Black
>> sister was required to relay to the supreme council every whisper
>> inside her supposed Ajah-but only Galina among them had been Black"PoD
>> p.498.
>
>of the White Ajah then. But was she a Sitter?
I suspect that she was. I can't see her levying the type of support
that Elaida needed without being a sitter or Ajah head.
>> >And while we're here, is anyone curious in the slightest about the fates
>> >of Tylin, Teslyn and Joline?
>
>> Yes, but I'm a hell of a lot more curious about the fourth party in
>> Ebou Dar.
>
>Hmm?
Mat.
Bryon Wasserman
(Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
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>
>Are you sure Romanda didn't plan to steal the Oath Rod and use it for
>the same purpose? Otherwise, torturing does no good, because you can
>never know whether you are torturing someone into telling the truth or
>lying.
The AS had more or less given up on stealing the Or at this point.
Additionally, I don't think that most AS know that oaths can be
removed or that the BA are not bound by the three oaths.
>One thing that bugged me about TPoD is that none of Ispan's
>information was revealed. Why was this kept from the readers?
Most of it was garbage. If what we are told is true, she has taken an
Oath that prevents her from giving away information.
>>>And just how are they going to find out? By torturing her into
>>>confessing? That's further evidence that this is a witch hunt.
>>
>>Yes, they are going to torture her into confessing or swearing the
>>oath. . She is not leaving until they know one way or the other. They
>>are at war right now and torture is very common when one is at war.
>>
>That doesn't mean that it is a good idea.
>
In their situation it is a good idea. Lives depend on their not being
revealed. Unless they torture her into eithe proving that she is not
BA or admitting that she is, their investigation is dead and so are
they.
As for comparisons to the Hand of the Light, the Hand does not have
foolproof methods of verification.
Bryon Wasserman
(Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 00:39:02 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>>In article <363bcd96...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>> wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:56:45 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>
>>> >In article <363b3d5a...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>>> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>> >> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>>> >> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>This whole thread is getting a little ridiculous. You have _zero_ evidence
>>for this.
>>
>Of course I have evidence. Mesaana is a teacher/research, she lived
>in the AoL, and Oath Rods were common in that time. I didn't need
>evidence for #1 and #2 above because you demanded that I explain how
>Mesaana being a teacher/researcher could be related to knowing about
>Oath Rods. You insult my intelligence with that zero evidence
>nonsense.
She wasn't a researcher, she was a teacher. The fact that she was
either is not evidence that she can circumvent something that
everyone, including Semihrage(who is an expert on the bending of the
human mind) considers uncircumvetable.
>>Evidence? How exactly has Pevara been acting "suspiciously"? Why is there
>>a need to "explain" this by naming her DF?
>>
>I mentioned a lot of suspicious activity elsewhere in this thread, if
>you are interested. Forcing someone to swear an oath to obey, and
>putting someone to the question, for example, seem suspicious to me,
>because I associate them with evil. They _are_ evil, unless they are
>being used to stop a greater evil. They always cause me to
>immediately question the motives of the people involved.
The direness of the circumstances and the absolute need for secrecy
necessitate such measures.
>>Be consistent. Pevara swore to tell the truth and said she is not a DF. And
>>AS who swear Oaths are not Asimov's robots.
>>
>There is no inconsistency here. Victums would not have had the
>supercession protection.
Both Pevara and Seaine performed a general unbinding of the oaths
first. Any sort of "supercession oath" would have been removed at the
time.
>>Again, this makes no sense to me. SAS sent the spies for their own reasons.
>>Mesaana is doing what she does for her own reasons. I see _no_ need to
>>assign the DF tag to Pevara, or importance to Zerah, merely because of a
>>stubborn belief in Mesaana's supposed expertise in inventing Oaths that
>>circumvent other Oaths.
>>
>Consider that they forced Zerah to swear an oath to obey, and they had
>no intention of releasing her whether she was Black Ajah, rebel, or
>neither. Sure, this was explained, but a better explanation for this
>is that she is Black Ajah. This means that this evidence is in my
>favor, not yours.
This is not a "better explanation" . Their investigation demands
absolute secrecy. If the first sister that they interrogate runs away
shouting in outrage, then their investigation is over.
Daniel Demus
>
> On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 00:39:02 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >In article <363bcd96...@news.campus.mci.net>,
> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
> >> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:56:45 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <363b3d5a...@news.campus.mci.net>,
> >> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
> >> >> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
> >> >> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >[Old unresolved issues]
> >> >> >
>
> >> That was a perceived loss too. I say it was a defensive victory for
> >> the Seanchan, if a Pyrrhic one. They held Ebou Dar, and Rand had to
> >> retreat. Part of the reason why the Seanchan perceived it as a loss
> >> was because Suroth ordered them to destroy Rand's army, and they
> >> failed to do that.
> >
> >The High Lord Turak's defeat was spectacular. It was the first defeat of
> >the EVA. The second one was equally disastrous. From the man's comments (I
> >forget his name) in that last passage, all those thousands of lightning bolts
> >pretty much shredded the Seanchan army. He was worried about explaining to
> >Suroth, and to the Empress as well. Similar to how Suroth was worried about
> >explaining to the Empress that Turak had led them to a slaughter. A loss
> >comparable to the one in TGH.
> >
> You just explained a Pyrrhic victory, not a defeat. If it had been a
> defeat for the Seanchan, Rand would have pushed the Seanchan out of
> Ebou Dar. Rand made an attack but gained no territory. Land
> exchanged determines who wins a battle. The defender wins if no land
> is exchanged.
>
> Rand lost the battle, but won the campaign, because he did force the
> Seanchan out of those mountains. The Seanchan may have been referring
> to the campaign, instead.
>
For some reason I got the impression the Seanchan were preparing a
campaign against Illian by moving into the mountains, while Rand's
original intent was to push them back. It's only when he became a
Callandor driven megalomaniac that he wasn't to throw them into the sea,
and all that.
Rand still got the better of the battle but "lost" because he started
blasting his own troops. The Seanchan OTOH seemed to be pretty beat up
when the retreat was ordered.
But in the end both sides ended up retreating to their bases, so I would
say neither side won.
--
Daniel
"THERE ARE ONLY TWO KINDS OF AIRCRAFT :
FIGHTERS AND TARGETS"
from "Bumper stickers for fighter pilots"
To reply get rid of the dash.
UIN: 11216730
Myranya
wrote:
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>>>>> 3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
<snip>
>I actually think that it wasn't Halima at all. Why would Jordan be hiding
>her identity? He seems to do that only when he's introducing a new
>important character or resurrecting important old one but in any case it
>someone we never expect.
I thought it would be Halima at first, but in another thread two
people I can't mention 'cause I can't find the post at the moment
(sorry) made a very interesting observation... In the same chapter,
Romanda enters Egwene's tent. First her voice is referred to as
'chiming' similar to the way RJ refers to Mesaana's voice. Second,
although I don't see any details about embroidery, she's wearing a
bronze dress.... It's not enough to convince me Romanda is Mesaana, it
could well be a red herring, but I'm certainly considering it as a
possibility... and I will be watching for bronze dresses outside the
Tower from now on :)
Myranya.
myr...@knoware.nl
http://www.knoware.nl/users/myranya/
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Send me spam now and be certain I will *not ever* purchase any
product from your company or do business with you. I will, however,
sent your ISP a nice letter of complaint. Happy spamming.
Ranma Al'Thor
: One of the Seanchan Generals says words to the effect that the Altaran
: lords were eager to turn over on the Queen in exchange for their owm
: power, so that couls be construed to mean that Tylin is off somewhere. I
I forgot that. She probably did refuse, then.
: don't think Tylin, as she was portrayed, would take the Oaths, though.
: Or maybe she would. She seemed to be very flexible in knowing when to
: bow to a stronger power.
: I hope she did, because if she refused, well, the Seanchan impale those
: who refuse and aren't of the Blood, like one of the rulers of either
: Tarabon or Arad Doman that they caught. Either Alsalam or Andric, I
: forget.
Maybe they'll just make her a dancer like they did with the Panarch.
(High Lady Suroth's All Ruler Dancing Revue! Coming soon to Ghealdan!)
Lara Beaton
wrote:
>In article <slrn73jrdc....@treex.Stanford.EDU> aber...@princeton.edu (Aaron Bergman) writes:
>:In article <F1Mo...@midway.uchicago.edu>, P. Korda wrote:
>Spoilers
>13. Whats the deal with Elayne & the inn & the hot ter'angreal?
I asked at the signing on saturday. The exchange went something like
this:
Me: What happened with Elayne and that warm ter'angreal?
RJ: (laughs) What do you think happened?
Me: We figured it must be some sort of One Power sex toy.
RJ: (laughing harder) I may write something about that in a later
book.
Me: RAFO, right?
RJ: Exactly.
--
Lara Beaton (remove SPAMCATCHER to reply)
The opinions expressed are not those of IAMS.
"Greetings, large black person. Let us not forget to form a team
up together and go into the country to inflict the pain of our
karate feets on some ass of the giant lizard person."
Bill E. Brooks
<donr...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>At the time Graendal believed that Sammy was Nae'blis - wouldn't she have
>told him that Asmo was dead by her hand if she had done it? (dont bother
>flaming me if im wrong - its been a while since i read that bit).
>
He told her that lie later in the book.
I am not sure why Graendal wants to keep this a secret. Perhaps she
is afraid of it getting back to Rand somehow. Sammael might have used
this information to manipulate her.
-Bill Brooks
Bill E. Brooks
<wass...@law.georgetown.edu.REMOVETOREPLY> wrote:
>On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 08:11:08 GMT, wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net
>(Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 00:39:02 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>>>In article <363bcd96...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>>> wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:56:45 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >In article <363b3d5a...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>>>> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>>> >> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>>>> >> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>This whole thread is getting a little ridiculous. You have _zero_ evidence
>>>for this.
>>>
>>Of course I have evidence. Mesaana is a teacher/research[er], she lived
>>in the AoL, and Oath Rods were common in that time. I didn't need
>>evidence for #1 and #2 above because you demanded that I explain how
>>Mesaana being a teacher/researcher could be related to knowing about
>>Oath Rods. You insult my intelligence with that zero evidence
>>nonsense.
>
>She wasn't a researcher, she was a teacher.
This comment is absurd in this context. It is like saying anybody
that doesn't make it to the NBA can't play basketball.
>The fact that she was
>either is not evidence that she can circumvent something that
>everyone,
You are arguing as if I am trying to _prove_ something. I am not
trying to _prove_ anything. You guys are the ones who claim to have
proof. All that I have to do is raise doubts.
I am arguing here that the chances are good that if there was any such
information available in the AoL, Mesaana would be likely to know
about it. I brought this up to explain why Mesaana might know
information about how to get around an Oath Rod, and how Pevara would
have gotten that information. Why it is that you expect me to prove
everything is beyond me. I was trying to reason under conditions of
uncertainty.
If person A has condition B with probability C, and person D has
condition B with probability E, and C > E, then there must be some
reason F why C > E. F is evidence for B. Let A = Mesaana, B =
knowing how to get around Oath Rods, and D = Seaine. Clearly C > E.
F = Mesaana's superior knowledge from the AoL.
>including Semihrage(who is an expert on the bending of the
>human mind) considers uncircumvetable.
>
So now you are arguing that Semirhage, a torturer/healer, knows more
about Oath Rods than Mesaana, a teacher/researcher. That's doubtful.
Presumably, Semirhage might have known a way around the Oath Rod, but
she also knew that the people who did bindings knew more than she, and
would have known enough to prevent any tricks she might have intended
to use. Presumably, Seaine would be much easier to trick.
>Both Pevara and Seaine performed a general unbinding of the oaths
>first. Any sort of "supercession oath" would have been removed at the
>time.
Not true. They removed the Three Oaths one by one. Seaine thought
about removing all of them at once later, but she never actually did
in that chapter. AFAICT, she never told Pevara about that thought
either.
>>>Again, this makes no sense to me. SAS sent the spies for their own reasons.
>>>Mesaana is doing what she does for her own reasons. I see _no_ need to
>>>assign the DF tag to Pevara, or importance to Zerah, merely because of a
>>>stubborn belief in Mesaana's supposed expertise in inventing Oaths that
>>>circumvent other Oaths.
>>>
>>Consider that they forced Zerah to swear an oath to obey, and they had
>>no intention of releasing her whether she was Black Ajah, rebel, or
>>neither. Sure, this was explained, but a better explanation for this
>>is that she is Black Ajah. This means that this evidence is in my
>>favor, not yours.
>
>This is not a "better explanation".
Sure it is.
>Their investigation demands
>absolute secrecy. If the first sister that they interrogate runs away
>shouting in outrage, then their investigation is over.
>
I accept this explanation, just fine. But if the Black Ajah were to
get a sister like Zerah under their control, they could use her to
cause no end of trouble. They could use her as a pawn to instigate
chaos, and then just throw her away. People who _know_ that they can
trust her could be betrayed. And I do have evidence they are trying
to do this: they've already trapped Elaida.
-Bill Brooks
Bryon Wasserman
(Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:39:58 GMT, Bryon Wasserman
><wass...@law.georgetown.edu.REMOVETOREPLY> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 08:11:08 GMT, wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net
>>(Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 00:39:02 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <363bcd96...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>>>> wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:56:45 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >In article <363b3d5a...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>>>>> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>>>> >> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:00:39 GMT, rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> >In article <363a1183...@news.campus.mci.net>,
>>>>> >> > wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>She wasn't a researcher, she was a teacher.
>
>This comment is absurd in this context. It is like saying anybody
>that doesn't make it to the NBA can't play basketball.
I fail to see how you can jump to that conclusion. You are claiming
specific exraordinary knowledge for Mesanna. If she was not a
researcher and she was specifically not capable enough to be a
researcher , then it is unlikely that she would know it.
>>The fact that she was
>>either is not evidence that she can circumvent something that
>>everyone,
>
>You are arguing as if I am trying to _prove_ something. I am not
>trying to _prove_ anything. You guys are the ones who claim to have
>proof. All that I have to do is raise doubts.
Doubt raising must still be backed up with evidence.
>I am arguing here that the chances are good that if there was any such
>information available in the AoL, Mesaana would be likely to know
>about it. I brought this up to explain why Mesaana might know
>information about how to get around an Oath Rod, and how Pevara would
>have gotten that information. Why it is that you expect me to prove
>everything is beyond me. I was trying to reason under conditions of
>uncertainty.
You were defending a fairly absurd point of view with an argument
that depended on something being possible that we have no reason to
think possiblle.
As a general rule, the fact that someone may have indirect contact
with someone from the AOL is not "evidence" that they cannot do
something that is thought to be impossible.
>If person A has condition B with probability C, and person D has
>condition B with probability E, and C > E, then there must be some
>reason F why C > E. F is evidence for B. Let A = Mesaana, B =
>knowing how to get around Oath Rods, and D = Seaine. Clearly C > E.
>F = Mesaana's superior knowledge from the AoL.
F is not evidence for B. Semihrage was not only from the AOL, but an
expert on mental manipulation. She considered it impossible.
>>including Semihrage(who is an expert on the bending of the
>>human mind) considers uncircumvetable.
>>
>So now you are arguing that Semirhage, a torturer/healer, knows more
>about Oath Rods than Mesaana, a teacher/researcher. That's doubtful.
Semihrage knows more than anyone save graendal about mental
manipulation. And for the billionth , time Messana was not a
researcher.
Corwin2
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
A more interesting question about Talene is... how do they question her?
As I see it the questioning technique pivots on whether they can remove
Talene's Oaths. Can they remove Oaths if they don't know what the Oaths
are? Can they puzzle out the Oaths? If they can remove Talene's Oaths
then they can force her to take new Oaths and done is done.
Otherwise they are stuck with the conflicting Oaths problem. She would
die before talking. And one of her oaths is probably never to give anyone
who isn't Black Ajah or Forsaken information about the Black Ajah. Then
they would have to still her and question her. Stilling her would cancel
her Oaths, then they could get the identities of the other two Black Ajah
in Talene's cell and also find out what the Oaths were so they could
remove them from the next BA they capture. But they would have to
keep a stilled Talene hidden.
IIRC - when two Black Ajah captured in Tear were questioned only the
stilled one told the truth. (tSR.)
Jim F.
Bill E. Brooks
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On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 22:39:39 -0500, "Richard M. Boye'"
<wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>rajesh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> In article <363c87a9....@news.campus.mci.net>,
>> wrbr...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net (Bill E. Brooks) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Now I ask you: what other evidence do you have against Talene? What
>> > were the terrible transgressions that she committed as a Darkfriend?
>> > Is it not true that other than this one scene, you have no evidence
>> > against her?
>> >
>>
>> What information did Talene want to extract from Seaine and Pevara? What
>> information did Mesaana order Alviarin to obtain?
>>
>> That's right. What are all the Heads of the Ajahs whispering in corners
>> about, is what.
>
>Know, this section left me a little confused.
>
>And what are the Heads of Ajahs planning away from the Hall?
>
>Now, is _Talene_ the head of the Greens is TV? I'm not sure if I read it
>correctly, but I think Talene was insinuating that Seaine and Pevara
>_might_ be the heads of their respective Ajahs. Because that would mean
>that of the seven Ajahs, at least two were lead by BA, and if Alviarin
>was the leader of the White, that makes three. Although I wonder about
>that other senior White (Doreine?) that Alviarin took note of in CoS.
>
This whole issue had me confused. I couldn't figure out before how
Talene could possibly be after Seaine and Pevara, because I didn't
think either could possibly be heads of their respective Ajahs. It
seems to me now that Talene was following a false lead.
>The other thing I have been wondering about is should we be able to
>construe Seaine's lack of fury at Zarah as her growing realization that
>the Rebels were probabaly right?
>
Seaine is a White. Why be furious at someone under her control?
>And while we're here, is anyone curious in the slightest about the fates
>of Tylin, Teslyn and Joline?
>
I had a pre-TPoD theory that Tylin is going to be the lever that
forces Mat into Tuon's arms. It is still valid.
-Bill Brooks
RICHARD EPSTEIN
Myranya <myr...@knoware.nl> wrote in article
<3641edd8...@news.nl.net>...
> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 14:47:55 -0600, "Igor Papirov" <ig...@parusoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
>
>
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> >>>>> 3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
> <snip>
>
>
> >I actually think that it wasn't Halima at all. Why would Jordan be
hiding
> >her identity? He seems to do that only when he's introducing a new
> >important character or resurrecting important old one but in any case it
> >someone we never expect.
>
I actually think it wasn't a darkfriend at all. Halima already has Egwene
wrapped around his/her finger, and I really don't think that Egwene's plans
are really very relevant to the D.O. The questioner is asking Sheriam about
Egwene's plans, and the ones that would care the most would be the sitters
in Saldea, or possibly someone from Tar Valon, a spy just like they sent.
Rich Epstein
Sarah Coit
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> A more interesting question about Talene is... how do they question her?
>
> As I see it the questioning technique pivots on whether they can remove
> Talene's Oaths. Can they remove Oaths if they don't know what the Oaths
> are? Can they puzzle out the Oaths? If they can remove Talene's Oaths
> then they can force her to take new Oaths and done is done.
>
> Otherwise they are stuck with the conflicting Oaths problem.
[snip]
I imagine they could force her to swear to obey them and then order
her to unswear all the oaths she swore upon becoming Black Ajah.
Presumably *she* knows what they were.
The thing buggin' me is whether Pevara and Seaine will let on that
they are making sisters swear to obey them. That could land them
in some serious...hot water, especially when one of the sisters is
a Sitter for the Green.
> IIRC - when two Black Ajah captured in Tear were questioned only the
> stilled one told the truth. (tSR.)
Are you sure Joiya was lying?
P. Korda
Craig Moe <crai...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On 30 Oct 1998 16:48:41 GMT, Andrea Leistra <alei...@f1n7.u.arizona.edu> wrote:
>>>Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>> 8. Who killed Adeleas and Ispan?
>>
>>(I'll write up the case for Vandene if you want to FAQ this one;
>> Asra seems to be the other suspect).
>I'll be happy to write up the case against Vandene; I consider Asra less
>of a suspect than a whole host of other people, however. (Mili Skaine, the
Well, somebody write it up and post it. I never considered it could be
anybody BUT Vandene (but I've thought it possible that at least one of
those sisters was BA for a while). A thorough summary would be good,
and others who believe it was Asra or whoever could point out problems
with the Vandene theory.
--pam
Andrea Leistra
P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <71e9ui$qao$1...@camel21.mindspring.com>,
>Craig Moe <crai...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>On 30 Oct 1998 16:48:41 GMT, Andrea Leistra <alei...@f1n7.u.arizona.edu> wrote:
>>>>Needless to say, there be spoilers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
>>> 8. Who killed Adeleas and Ispan?
>>>
>>>(I'll write up the case for Vandene if you want to FAQ this one;
>>> Asra seems to be the other suspect).
>
>>I'll be happy to write up the case against Vandene; I consider Asra less
>>of a suspect than a whole host of other people, however. (Mili Skaine, the
>
>Well, somebody write it up and post it.
I'm working on my part of it.
--
Andrea Leistra
Elizabeth R Cornwell
> 8. Setalle Anan
I'm afraid that I didn't have time for a full series re-read this year,
and that I don't have access to any of my books (including PoD, don't
ask!) - so the following may be obviously impossible, due to facts in
evidence that I'm not remembering, but...
Is there any chance Setalle Anan is the deposed Amyrlin who (we are told)
was eventually smothered in her sleep? I ask because after the last book,
it was clear to me that Setalle was 'the one who is no longer' - but I
still had no idea what the title meant. An ex-Amyrlin fits the bill, and
the repeated references to her (as Egwene and Siuan ritually pronounce
that Egwene must not follow her path) seemed a little more extensive than
the usual throw-away history notes meant to enhance RJ's world-building
efforts.
Call that my looney theory of the day.
Elizabeth
ps: good to 'see' you, Pam - may I knuckle my brow to the FAQ-queen?
Elizabeth R Cornwell
> Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
> >Mike Kozlowski wrote in message <71br1a$13ra$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>...
> >>P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >>> 3. Who was torturing Sheriam? (related to 7, above)
> >>Halima, I assumed.
> >>Clue me in: What are the other alternatives.
> >People have suggested Delana, Alviarin, Semirhage, Mesaana, and I think a
> >few others.
> On what basis? Halima's there, and there's no reason at all to assume
> it's not her; positing anybody else seems to be needlessly
> over-complicating the matter.
The primary reason I can think of to problematize the Halima ID is as
follows: since Halima has direct access to Egwene and no compunction at
using compulsion on her, what info could she possibly require from
Sheriam? Egwene does not confide in Sheriam, and Halima is unlikely to
get better intelligience by this route than by her own direct efforts.
As for acquiring info on other SAS Sitters (as opposed to info on Egwene
or her plans), Halima has Delana. Sheriam is an especially bad choice for
gathering information on the factions opposed to Egwene as she has
become, in the eyes of the Salidar AS, completely loyal to Egwene.
Thus the problem with Halima is that it is difficult to imagine her
needing Sheriam's information on *anything*, making the scene make no real
sense with her as the torturer except as a "look, the bad guys are bad
because they do bad things" establishment sequence (in which case, the
author might as well show us the identity of the the bad guy, so we can
shudder and say "wow, s/he;s *really* bad!").
OTOH, we know that resurrected Forsaken and still-going-strong-in-
their-original-dustjackets Forsaken sometimes double-cover the GoodGuys,
due to lack of Evil communication and cooperation. Mesaana (who neither
knows about nor is working with Halima), but who does have a vested
interest in all events concerning the Tower, is a good suspect as an
alternate torturer. She *does* need info on Egwene's plans and, since
Sheriam is Egwene's Keeper, would have every reason to believe that
Sheriam would be a good source of such information.
Elizabeth
Shawn M. Root
Richard M. Boye' wrote in message <363BE3...@webspan.net>...
:Bill E. Brooks wrote:
:>
:> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:28:23 -0500, "Richard M. Boye'"
:> <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
:>
:> >Bill E. Brooks wrote:
:> >>
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:[14. Is Pevara BA?]
:
:
:> >The Pevara=DF theory has been put to rest.
:> >
:> >If Mesaana had found away around having Black Ajah members taking a
:> >direct oath to tell the truth and then announce their alliegences,
:> >dontcha think she would have provided this information to Talene
Minly?
:
:
:> I agree with your analysis, but I don't think that we can conclude
:> _Talene_ is BA. In fact, the evidence is pretty weak for that. A
:> refusal to take a test is not proof of guilt. I suppose neither
:> Talene nor Pevara could be Darkfriends, but I find that unlikely.
For
:> one thing, too much irony would be lost.
:
:This is silly.
:
:There are five sisters there, all adamant in their willingness to show
:they are not servants on the Dark One.
:
:They are all willing to show the others by taking the oaths.
:
:One refuses to take the oaths and _tries_ to _flee_.
:
:Why the fuck else would she be fleeing unless she was aware that the
:renewed oath of truthfulness would force her to expose herself!?!? (1)
:
I agree with you wholeheartedly Rich. However, your argument as to
_why_ Talene isn't BA surprises me. It seems rather unlawyerly to
assume someones guilt based on the fact that they are uncooperative.
--
Shawn
Richard M. Boye'
>
> Richard M. Boye' wrote in message <363BE3...@webspan.net>...
> :Bill E. Brooks wrote:
> :>
> :> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:28:23 -0500, "Richard M. Boye'"
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
[Talene. Satan-Worshipping Slut, or Just Maligned Virtuous Stateswoman?)
> :> I agree with your analysis, but I don't think that we can conclude
> :> _Talene_ is BA. In fact, the evidence is pretty weak for that. A
> :> refusal to take a test is not proof of guilt. I suppose neither
> :> Talene nor Pevara could be Darkfriends, but I find that unlikely.
> :> one thing, too much irony would be lost.
> :
> :This is silly.
> :Why the fuck else would she be fleeing unless she was aware that the
> :renewed oath of truthfulness would force her to expose herself!?!? (1)
> :
>
> I agree with you wholeheartedly Rich. However, your argument as to
> _why_ Talene isn't BA surprises me. It seems rather unlawyerly to
> assume someones guilt based on the fact that they are uncooperative.
First of all, I'd characterize Talene's conduct as slightly more than
simply "uncooperative."
However, it's perfectly valid to draw inferences from her attempted
flight.
--
Richard M. Boye' wa...@webspan.net
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/ UIN:9021244
"Roses are red, Violets are blue,
I'm a schizophrenic, And so am I."
Courtenay Footman
>In article <wkk91i2...@dsv.su.se> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> writes:
>>FAQueen Pam Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>
>>My theory is that Lanfear was killed and Moiraine was burned
>>out/severed. It explains the transfer of Lan's bond.
>
>My theory is they both got wishes, but Moiraine knew to wish well
>and Lanfear did not. Moiraine may have been severed, but the bond
>could have also broken as a side-effect of a wish or as a wish
>itself.
>
The problem with the bond being severed as some effect of the wish
is that it happened to quickly. Every interaction (OK, well, two.
Will extrapolate for food.) with either sort of Finn we have seen
involved a bunch of waiting around, walking down corridors, and
assorted mumbo-jumbo before things got down to business. However,
Moiraine went through the gate, and boom, link to Lan gone. There
simply wasn't time for wishes to have that effect.
--
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