Dayton Signing - Long
Tim Kington
This is going to be long, but hopefully worth reading -
Jordan gave some very surprising answers at this signing.
The signing was scheduled to start at 7, and I got there
exactly at 6. There were about 70 people there at the time,
and in the end about 300 showed up. When you showed up, you
got a number. You were allowed to take two books through
the line the first time, and then if time allowed, you could
go through again. I was glad to find out that you didn't
have to buy the book there.
While we were waiting, my friend Josh and I were playing Go,
which is the game stones is based on. I thought this was
common knowledge, but a lot of people came and asked us if
we made it up from what's in the books. So, for the record,
the game is Go, it's the oldest known board game, and, IMO,
the best. If you want to learn how to play, check out
http://playgo.to/interactive/ for the rules, and
http://www.smart-games.com/igowin.html for a program that
will play against you on a small board.
Jordan showed up around 7, and gave a little speech. He
said there will be at least two books, and that he will not
write a word more than he has to. He talked a little bit
about what his next series will be, which he is calling
Shipwrecked or Fantasy Shogun for now. I got the
impression that he would like to finish WOT so that he can
start writing the next thing already. He said he has known
the last scene of the last book since 1984.
Then he said that someone has figured out who killed
Asmodean. My impression was that it was in a letter someone
sent him. He said that he didn't tell the person he was
right, and he's not going to tell us who it is because he
enjoys watching us squirm. He said that if we would have
figured it out a few books ago, he probably would have told
us, but now he's having too much fun. He also said that the
guy used only clues that were available in the first five
books to do it. He then thought for a moment and said he
may have used one or two things from later books.
Next, he gave the correct pronunciation of some of the
names: Ny-neeve, Egg-wain, Sigh-deen, Sigh-dar, Ice Suh-dye,
Tell-arahn-ree-odd (but the r's sound French), Shawn-chan.
Later he said a few more, so I'll throw them in here: Taim
is Ta-eem, Sem-ih-rawje, moeg-head-ee-en, Asmo-dee-en. He
was a little ticked off that people call Egwene Egg-wee-nee.
At this point the signing started. They would call a range
of numbers, and those people would go stand in line. With
300 people around, it was really hard to hear, so even
though I was about 15 feet away from his table, I didn't
hear anything for a while.
Then it was our turn to go up. My friend Josh and I had
been talking about how Rand and Mat spent a week in
Rhuidean, and so he asked how long Mat was hanging. A: Long
enough. Long enough for what? A: Long enough to be ALMOST
dead. (Emphasis mine) I was pretty sure this was where Mat
died and lived again, but I guess that's out of the question
now.
I asked how Gray Men make decisions without a soul, and he
said that a soul and a brain are two very different things.
After that I wandered around for a while, waiting for the
line to diminish, but after about an hour, things quieted
down enough that RJ could be heard easily, and people from
the audience started asking questions while he kept signing.
First someone asked something about him learning to read.
He said that he had only read one children's book -
something about a pig, I think - and that the first book he
ever read was the second half of White Fang. His brother
had started reading it to him, and he wanted to finish it
himself. He talked about a book that came out in the 40's
which he said was the first bodice ripper, and that he read
it when he was 5. He said that he was confused for quite a
while after that and got in trouble for calling girls "wench".
A while after that he got his first library card. He was
disappointed to find out that he was supposed to stay in
the children's section of the library, and that the
librarian wanted to read The Velveteen Rabbit to him. He
made a habit of sneaking into the adult section, grabbing
a book at random, and taking it back to a reading room in
the children's section. He found that if the book wasn't
any good, he could leave it on the table there, and it
would get returned to its proper place, but if he liked it,
he would put it in the shelves of the reading room, and
it would stay there until he was done with it.
Someone asked what he's reading right now, and he said Salt,
which is, I guess, actually all about salt. There were
other questions like that and he recommended the fantasy of
C.S. Friedman, John M. Ford, and Guy Gavriel Kay. He also
recommended the essays of Montaigne(sp?) and Guns, Germs,
and Steel.
He talked a little bit about when he realized women are
different from men. He said a woman (friend of his
mother's?) in a summer dress picked him up, and he could
feel the dress sliding over her, and he thought "She doesn't
feel like mother." He could smell her perfume, and thought
"She doesn't smell like mother." Then she went to put him
down, and her grip slipped, and his face was buried in her
cleavage. She set him down, mussed his hair and called him
precocious. He ran off to look 'precocious' up in a
dictionary. Now that he had noticed women, he was trying to
figure out how they got to be that way. He could see that
if you took a boy and scaled him up, you basically had a
man, but he couldn't figure out how the little girls he knew
could turn into women. He decided it must involve cocoons.
Someone asked about how he writes women so well. When he
was a teenager, he didn't have much luck with women despite
being very pretty. He mentioned this to his uncle, and he said,
"You like to hunt deer, don't you?" "Yes." "You know a lot
about deer?" "Yes." "You know their habits, when they get
up, where they like to forage, what trails they tend to
follow, etc.?" "Yes." "Well, do you think that hunting deer
is more important than hunting women?" So he started to
study women.
He was asked if he had anything he would like to say about
his time at the Citadel, and he said no.
He served all over Vietnam. When asked, he rattled off
about 15 or 20 different places. The only ones I caught
were the delta and the rubber plantation. He was a gunner.
He said he wanted to be a point, but his eyesight wasn't
good enough.
He was in the Army, and he talked about how the Air Force is
full of slackers. He went to an Air Force base once and he
was driving a car that had Admiral's stars on it (his
dad's?) When he pulled up to the guard at the base entrance,
the guy was about to give him a typical lazy Air Force
salute, then saw the stars on the bumper of the car, and
levitated a couple of feet off the ground. He asked the
guard where the hospital was and got directions. When he
got to the hospital, people were running in all directions,
doctors were hyperventilating, running around holding paper
bags over their mouths, and the place was chaos, all because
there was a two-star on the base, and nobody knew who he was
because the idiot at the gate didn't think to ask.
He listens to music while he writes. Usually classical, but
also ethnic music occasionally. When he's not writing he
likes jazz and old-style country. He also likes the latest
music from Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson now that they don't
care what people think any more.
He was asked who his favorite character is, and, of course,
he said it's the one he's writing at the time. They asked
who his favorite character will be when he's done with the
whole thing. He said he doesn't know, but there are some
that have a lot of him in them. Lan typefies the ideals
that he aspired to while growing up. Perrin has a lot of
him as a young man in him, and Mat acts the way he acted as
a young man. His wife says he's Loial to his toenails, but
he doesn't see it.
Someone asked about WOT jewelry. He said there's a company
coming out with Great Serpent rings, and Asha'man pins. He
mentioned the weapons you can get from Museum Replicas (I
think that's who's making the jewelry, too). They
supposedly have the Heron Mark Sword, Seanchan Sword, Fain's
Dagger, and Perrin's Axe. I can only find the Heron Mark
Sword, so maybe the rest are forthcoming.
Someone said that there are rumours that he has played
online in some WOT MUDs. He said that he hasn't.
A company called ToyVault is supposed to be coming out with
some WOT toys. The first one they're going to make is a
stuffed Trolloc. Seriously.
Alright, now for the questions. Let's get the RAFOs out of
the way first:
Q: How many seals are still intact?
Q: Is Moiraine coming back?
Q: Will the Ways heal now that the taint is gone?
Me: Is Mesaana now fitted with a mindtrap?
Me: Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?
RJ: (Disgusted) I've said that before, and it's not Taim,
it's Ta-eeem.
Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long
as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason
for being there besides being a red herring, though.
Q: He's too old.
RJ: Yes. Time in TAR and the real world run at different
rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an
hour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or
you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get
back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on
Monday.
Q: Is the difference in time constant?
RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow,
sometimes the same as real time.
Q: It's different for different people, then?
RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in TAR. Then the same
amount of time passes for them obviously.
Q: When Rand went to see the rebels in ACOS, and Fain was
there, why didn't Rand just waste him and gate out of
there?
RJ: When Rand visits the rebels, he has a specific goal in
mind. He's just been to see the Sea Folk, and things
have gone his way there, so he's going to see what the
Dragon Reborn can do about the rebels. Killing an
advisor and Traveling away is not going to help him
accomplish his goals. He's not a fool.
Q: Will Shara get any screen time?
RJ: Read and find out. I don't know, actually. There are
things that need to happen that might have to happen
there, but it will be a lot easier if I can make them
happen somewhere else .
Q: Is the world of the books another world?
RJ: The intention is that the world of the books is our
world at a different time. The conceit is that time is
a wheel, so if you go far enough into our future or into
our past, you come to the time in the books. Because of
that, they have legends that originate in our time, and
we have legends that originate in theirs.
Q: (inaudible)
RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the
past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or
rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if
you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single
elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past,
when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
Shadow, the result has been a draw.
Karl-Johan Noren
Tim Kington <timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com> wrote:
> Someone asked what he's reading right now, and he said Salt,
> which is, I guess, actually all about salt.
Actually, I'd guess it's _Salt_ by Adam Roberts (Gollancz,
London, 2000).
It's hard sf with an anthropological bent, but I wouldn't say
it impressed me. And yes, it is set on a planet that is mainly
covered with salts.
--
Karl-Johan Norén -- k...@bredband.net
http://hem.passagen.se/kjnoren/
- To believe people are as stupid as one believes is
stupider than one can believe
Leigh Butler
<timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com> wrote:
>CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003
<snippage>
>Me: Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?
>RJ: (Disgusted) I've said that before, and it's not Taim,
> it's Ta-eeem.
Well, that more or less settles that, I guess. This is at least the
fourth report of this I've heard about or seen.
Huh.
>Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
>RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long
> as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason
> for being there besides being a red herring, though.
>
>Q: He's too old.
>RJ: Yes. Time in TAR and the real world run at different
> rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an
> hour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or
> you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get
> back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on
> Monday.
Huh again. And by inference, that also completely disqualifies Mat and
anyone else older than Olver too. Not that they were ever anything
other than loony candidates in the first place...
Let the guessing games begin, I guess.
>Q: (inaudible)
>RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the
> past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or
> rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if
> you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single
> elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past,
> when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
> Shadow, the result has been a draw.
Interesting.
Thanks for posting the report, Tim. Much appreciated.
--
Leigh Butler leigh_...@paramount.com
******************************************************
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those
of Paramount Pictures or its affiliates.
Sean O'Hara
>
> He was asked if he had anything he would like to say about
> his time at the Citadel, and he said no.
>
someone else asking the questions that were suggested here
yesterday.
<SNIP>
Damn. His answers were actually informative for a change. Hell,
it sounds like there's more content at the signing than in the
book.
--
Sean O'Hara
Donnie: Why do you wear that stupid rabbit suit?
Frank: Why do you wear that stupid man suit?
--Richard Kelly, "Donnie Darko"
Michael Martin
--
Michael Martin
http://www.stormraven.com
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in
return."
"Sean O'Hara" <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote in
message news:3E2875F0...@myrealbox.com...
Michael Martin
> >
> > He was asked if he had anything he would like to say about
> > his time at the Citadel, and he said no.
> >
> Weird. You're the second person from the Dayton signing to report
> someone else asking the questions that were suggested here
> yesterday.
Not weird. I was the person asking those questions (as I solicited them
here yesterday), I just haven't had time to write up a report. Tim and
Matthew have covered a lot of stuff I was going, but there are a few
things left to write up. I'm hoping to get it done tonight; between the
three reports, y'all will have a full view of the night's fesitivties
and incredulous statements.
AlexFulks
<snip>
>Then he said that someone has figured out who killed
>Asmodean.
So the next question is...who in the group has personally written RJ with a
theory about who killed Asmodean?
Speak up, people.
John S. Novak, III
Tim Kington wrote:
> Jordan showed up around 7, and gave a little speech. He
> said there will be at least two books, and that he will not
> write a word more than he has to.
<Boggle>
What, you mean aside from the novellas?
And all the useless chapters that could be summed up in single
sentences? And the prologues that don't relate to anything in the
volume they're attached to?
Obviously someone working off a different dictionary.
> Then he said that someone has figured out who killed
> Asmodean. My impression was that it was in a letter someone
> sent him. He said that he didn't tell the person he was
> right, and he's not going to tell us who it is because he
> enjoys watching us squirm. He said that if we would have
> figured it out a few books ago, he probably would have told
> us, but now he's having too much fun.
Yeah, thanks for that, Jordan.
> Then it was our turn to go up. My friend Josh and I had
> been talking about how Rand and Mat spent a week in
> Rhuidean, and so he asked how long Mat was hanging. A: Long
> enough. Long enough for what? A: Long enough to be ALMOST
> dead. (Emphasis mine) I was pretty sure this was where Mat
> died and lived again, but I guess that's out of the question
> now.
This is a case of an author not thinking out his symbolism or the
ramifications of his metaphysics very well. Because if the 'Finn are
able to see the Pattern so well that they can predict and mandate the
precise effects of Balefire months in advance, well, then, Balefire
ceases to be that scary and potentially Pattern-destroying. It
becomes, in fact, *part* of the Pattern.
> Someone asked about how he writes women so well.
He hands out hallucinogens to his audience, I think, is the secret.
> He was asked who his favorite character is, and, of course,
> he said it's the one he's writing at the time. They asked
> who his favorite character will be when he's done with the
> whole thing. He said he doesn't know, but there are some
> that have a lot of him in them. Lan typefies the ideals
> that he aspired to while growing up. Perrin has a lot of
> him as a young man in him, and Mat acts the way he acted as
> a young man. His wife says he's Loial to his toenails, but
> he doesn't see it.
S-l-o-w and L-o-o-n-gwinded....
Perhaps she has a sense of humor.
Or perhaps I'm just in a snarky mood tonight.
> Me: Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?
> RJ: (Disgusted) I've said that before, and it's not Taim,
> it's Ta-eeem.
It really has been clear since WH.
What do people need, glowing neon signs?
> Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
> RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long
> as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason
> for being there besides being a red herring, though.
> Q: He's too old.
> RJ: Yes. Time in TAR and the real world run at different
> rates, but it never runs backwards.
Also FAQ worthy.
I shot, long ago, and I scored.
> Q: It's different for different people, then?
> RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in TAR. Then the same
> amount of time passes for them obviously.
Actually, that's not obvious at all.
But it does simplify matters.
> Q: When Rand went to see the rebels in ACOS, and Fain was
> there, why didn't Rand just waste him and gate out of
> there?
> RJ: When Rand visits the rebels, he has a specific goal in
> mind. He's just been to see the Sea Folk, and things
> have gone his way there, so he's going to see what the
> Dragon Reborn can do about the rebels. Killing an
> advisor and Traveling away is not going to help him
> accomplish his goals. He's not a fool.
Yeah, 'cause piddling rebels irritated because he killed Fain are so
much worse to deal with than piddling rebels *corrupted* by Fain past
the point of reasoning with *and* Fain.
I note he's gotten really far on that whole "put down the rebels"
idea, too.
> Q: Will Shara get any screen time?
> RJ: Read and find out. I don't know, actually. There are
> things that need to happen that might have to happen
> there, but it will be a lot easier if I can make them
> happen somewhere else .
Oh, dear God.
If I thought he could pull off something as cool as the Rhuidean
scenes again, I'd be all for it. But I was hoping for more of that
kind of coolness with the Sea Folk and never got it, either.
> Q: (inaudible)
> RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the
> past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or
> rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if
> you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single
> elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past,
> when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
> Shadow, the result has been a draw.
The Dark One needs to play games with more favorable victory
conditions.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
The Humblest Man on the Net
Dan Hudson
"Tim Kington" <timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93069B38D99D1tk...@24.210.67.113...
> CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003
<Snip>
> Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
> RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long
> as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason
> for being there besides being a red herring, though.
>
> Q: He's too old.
> RJ: Yes. Time in TAR and the real world run at different
> rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an
> hour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or
> you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get
> back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on
> Monday.
Does this mean that in current book time he should be about Lan's age or
that he should be an unborn child? It seems that an awful lot of female
characters are pregnant.
Could Olver be Hawkwing reincarnated? Not sure if they can appear with the
horn and still be "alive" at the same time. But he would be learning
warcraft from Mat who is possibly the greatest military mind of their time.
Loony theories both but possible...
Kate Nepveu
>Someone asked what he's reading right now, and he said Salt,
>which is, I guess, actually all about salt. There were
>other questions like that and he recommended the fantasy of
>C.S. Friedman, John M. Ford, and Guy Gavriel Kay. He also
>recommended the essays of Montaigne(sp?) and Guns, Germs,
>and Steel.
Good grief.
_Jordan_ reads _John M. Ford_--the writer who's so concise that he
often verges on cryptic?
Color me boggled.
--
Kate Nepveu
E-mail: kne...@steelypips.org
Home: http://www.steelypips.org/
Book log: http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/
David Chapman
> On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:17:34 GMT, Tim Kington
> <timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com> wrote:
>> Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
>> RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long
>> as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason
>> for being there besides being a red herring, though.
>>
>> Q: He's too old.
>> RJ: Yes. Time in TAR and the real world run at different
>> rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an
>> hour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or
>> you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get
>> back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on
>> Monday.
>
> Huh again. And by inference, that also completely disqualifies Mat and
> anyone else older than Olver too. Not that they were ever anything
> other than loony candidates in the first place...
>
> Let the guessing games begin, I guess.
I don't think it will matter, honestly.
--
Dark don't lie, dreams come true
Could be a few will see you through
Michelle J. Haines
timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com says...
>
> He said that he didn't tell the person he was
> right, and he's not going to tell us who it is because he
> enjoys watching us squirm.
He's just being a prick about it.
> Next, he gave the correct pronunciation of some of the
> names: Ny-neeve, Egg-wain, Sigh-deen, Sigh-dar, Ice Suh-dye,
> Tell-arahn-ree-odd (but the r's sound French), Shawn-chan.
> Later he said a few more, so I'll throw them in here: Taim
> is Ta-eem, Sem-ih-rawje, moeg-head-ee-en, Asmo-dee-en. He
> was a little ticked off that people call Egwene Egg-wee-nee.
Other than rare exception, I personally don't give a rat's ass how he
pronounces the names. I'm reading the books in my head, not out
loud. :)
> Someone asked about how he writes women so well.
On what planet does this person live? Jordan writes women
insultingly, IMO.
> When he
> was a teenager, he didn't have much luck with women despite
> being very pretty. He mentioned this to his uncle, and he said,
> "You like to hunt deer, don't you?" "Yes." "You know a lot
> about deer?" "Yes." "You know their habits, when they get
> up, where they like to forage, what trails they tend to
> follow, etc.?" "Yes." "Well, do you think that hunting deer
> is more important than hunting women?" So he started to
> study women.
Hunting women, eh? That speaks volumes about why his women are
written as narcissistic morons.
Michelle
Flutist
--
"Daddy, sometimes schoolwork is better than eating!"
-- Katrina M. Haines, 01-09-03
Chris Wilson
"Tim Kington" <timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93069B38D99D1tk...@24.210.67.113...
> Q: (inaudible)
> RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the
> past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or
> rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if
> you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single
> elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past,
> when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
> Shadow, the result has been a draw.
More interesting than the whole of CoT.
I understand how it's a game the good guys can only lose once but how
does the Champion of Light's defection only result in a draw. If the
Champ knew this he should defect every time and ensure that at least the
world doesn't go to total hell....
So a loss isn't the CoL(very unfortunate Eddings echo here) giving up. He
actually has to be defeated. This doesn't mesh well with how I see these
diety vs. mortal battles going. Since the immortal can obviously kick the
tar out of the mortal every time the only thing the mortal has going for him
is his free will. Usually in these things you just have to remain unbroken.
You may die but as long as you don't give in the good guys end up winning.
It seems that in this universen this is not the case. the good guy _has_
given up in the past.....this should logigally result in total victory for
the baddies.
What are the DO's victory conditions and if conversion is only a draw why
is he/it so keen on turning Rand. It can only be that he is afraid of
losing byy why whould he be when a loss isn't final for him while a draw
merely prolongs the game.
With this info are there enough clues to start positing the endgame
scenario?
-Greebs
Jim Mansfield
> CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003
>
> This is going to be long, but hopefully worth reading -
> Jordan gave some very surprising answers at this signing.
First of all, thanks for such a detail report. Much appreciated!
[snip]
> Jordan showed up around 7, and gave a little speech. He
> said there will be at least two books, and that he will not
> write a word more than he has to. He talked a little bit
> about what his next series will be, which he is calling
> Shipwrecked or Fantasy Shogun for now. I got the
> impression that he would like to finish WOT so that he can
> start writing the next thing already. He said he has known
> the last scene of the last book since 1984.
If there are only two more book in tWoT, then we are only going to get
about 3 days worth of action at RJ's current rate of writing! I would
love to see him wrap up some plot loines,but I can't see him doing it in
two books ;-)
> Then he said that someone has figured out who killed
> Asmodean. My impression was that it was in a letter someone
> sent him. He said that he didn't tell the person he was
> right, and he's not going to tell us who it is because he
> enjoys watching us squirm. He said that if we would have
> figured it out a few books ago, he probably would have told
> us, but now he's having too much fun. He also said that the
> guy used only clues that were available in the first five
> books to do it. He then thought for a moment and said he
> may have used one or two things from later books.
Bastard.
[pronunciation snippage]
> Then it was our turn to go up. My friend Josh and I had
> been talking about how Rand and Mat spent a week in
> Rhuidean, and so he asked how long Mat was hanging. A: Long
> enough. Long enough for what? A: Long enough to be ALMOST
> dead. (Emphasis mine) I was pretty sure this was where Mat
> died and lived again, but I guess that's out of the question
> now.
Did he agree with your choice of words "almost dead", or did he indicate
that Mat was dead-dead?
[snip RJ's "early" reading ... I mean, come on, people do teach
themselves to read by age 4 ... I did ]
[snip RJ's early discover of women, too]
> Someone asked about how he writes women so well.
Urk! He write some women really well. Moiraine, for instance. But the
closer he has to get to them and the more detail he puts in, the worse
it gets.
[major snip]
>His wife says he's Loial to his toenails, but
> he doesn't see it.
I wonder if he was kidding ... it certainly shows in his writing!
[snip]
> Alright, now for the questions. Let's get the RAFOs out of
> the way first:
>
> Q: How many seals are still intact?
> Q: Is Moiraine coming back?
> Q: Will the Ways heal now that the taint is gone?
> Me: Is Mesaana now fitted with a mindtrap?
>
> Me: Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?
> RJ: (Disgusted) I've said that before, and it's not Taim,
> it's Ta-eeem.
Good. Done and over. I never liked the Taimandred thing.
> Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
> RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long
> as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason
> for being there besides being a red herring, though.
Interesting.
> Q: He's too old.
> RJ: Yes. Time in TAR and the real world run at different
> rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an
> hour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or
> you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get
> back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on
> Monday.
>
> Q: Is the difference in time constant?
> RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow,
> sometimes the same as real time.
>
> Q: It's different for different people, then?
> RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in TAR. Then the same
> amount of time passes for them obviously.
Interesting again. I still don't see how that explains that Olver isn't
Gaidal, but I'll take his word for it.
[snip]
> Q: (inaudible)
> RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the
> past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or
> rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if
> you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single
> elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past,
> when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
> Shadow, the result has been a draw.
This I don't get. There seemed to be a lot of verbage in the first books
about how the GLotD wanted to break the cycles for ever. How can the
Champion of the Light (aka, Rand/LTT/current age's name) go over to the
Dark and it be adraw? I remember that Ishy wanted to convet Rand as much
as kill him. If that only gives them a draw, why would they prefer it?
Thanks again for the report. It raises many questions, but unlike some, also answers a few!
-Jim
Jim Mansfield
news:Xns93069B38D99D1tk...@24.210.67.113:
> CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003
>
> This is going to be long, but hopefully worth reading -
> Jordan gave some very surprising answers at this signing.
First of all, thanks for such a detail report. Much appreciated!
[snip]
> Jordan showed up around 7, and gave a little speech. He
> said there will be at least two books, and that he will not
> write a word more than he has to. He talked a little bit
> about what his next series will be, which he is calling
> Shipwrecked or Fantasy Shogun for now. I got the
> impression that he would like to finish WOT so that he can
> start writing the next thing already. He said he has known
> the last scene of the last book since 1984.
If there are only two more book in tWoT, then we are only going to get
about 3 days worth of action at RJ's current rate of writing! I would
love to see him wrap up some plot loines,but I can't see him doing it in
two books ;-)
> Then he said that someone has figured out who killed
> Asmodean. My impression was that it was in a letter someone
> sent him. He said that he didn't tell the person he was
> right, and he's not going to tell us who it is because he
> enjoys watching us squirm. He said that if we would have
> figured it out a few books ago, he probably would have told
> us, but now he's having too much fun. He also said that the
> guy used only clues that were available in the first five
> books to do it. He then thought for a moment and said he
> may have used one or two things from later books.
Bastard.
[pronunciation snippage]
> Then it was our turn to go up. My friend Josh and I had
> been talking about how Rand and Mat spent a week in
> Rhuidean, and so he asked how long Mat was hanging. A: Long
> enough. Long enough for what? A: Long enough to be ALMOST
> dead. (Emphasis mine) I was pretty sure this was where Mat
> died and lived again, but I guess that's out of the question
> now.
Did he agree with your choice of words "almost dead", or did he indicate
that Mat was dead-dead?
[snip RJ's "early" reading ... I mean, come on, people do teach
themselves to read by age 4 ... I did ]
[snip RJ's early discover of women, too]
> Someone asked about how he writes women so well.
Urk! He write some women really well. Moiraine, for instance. But the
closer he has to get to them and the more detail he puts in, the worse
it gets.
[major snip]
>His wife says he's Loial to his toenails, but
> he doesn't see it.
I wonder if he was kidding ... it certainly shows in his writing!
[snip]
> Alright, now for the questions. Let's get the RAFOs out of
> the way first:
>
> Q: How many seals are still intact?
> Q: Is Moiraine coming back?
> Q: Will the Ways heal now that the taint is gone?
> Me: Is Mesaana now fitted with a mindtrap?
>
> Me: Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?
> RJ: (Disgusted) I've said that before, and it's not Taim,
> it's Ta-eeem.
Good. Done and over. I never liked the Taimandred thing.
> Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
> RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long
> as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason
> for being there besides being a red herring, though.
Interesting.
> Q: He's too old.
> RJ: Yes. Time in TAR and the real world run at different
> rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an
> hour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or
> you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get
> back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on
> Monday.
>
> Q: Is the difference in time constant?
> RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow,
> sometimes the same as real time.
>
> Q: It's different for different people, then?
> RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in TAR. Then the same
> amount of time passes for them obviously.
Interesting again. I still don't see how that explains that Olver isn't
Gaidal, but I'll take his word for it.
[snip]
> Q: (inaudible)
> RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the
> past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or
> rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if
> you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single
> elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past,
> when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
> Shadow, the result has been a draw.
This I don't get. There seemed to be a lot of verbage in the first books
Richard Boye'
>
> On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:17:34 GMT, Tim Kington
> <timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com> wrote:
>
> >CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003
>
> <snippage>
> >Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
> >RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long
> > as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason
> > for being there besides being a red herring, though.
> >
> >Q: He's too old.
> >RJ: Yes. Time in TAR and the real world run at different
> > rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an
> > hour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or
> > you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get
> > back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on
> > Monday.
>
> Huh again. And by inference, that also completely disqualifies Mat and
> anyone else older than Olver too. Not that they were ever anything
> other than loony candidates in the first place...
ObLoony: Elayne's unborn son.
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
Typing into the Void:
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/books/blogger.html
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound."
David Chapman
> Leigh Butler wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:17:34 GMT, Tim Kington
>> <timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com> wrote:
>>
>>> CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003
>>
>> <snippage>
>
>>> Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
>>> RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long
>>> as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason
>>> for being there besides being a red herring, though.
>>>
>>> Q: He's too old.
>>> RJ: Yes. Time in TAR and the real world run at different
>>> rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an
>>> hour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or
>>> you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get
>>> back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on
>>> Monday.
>>
>> Huh again. And by inference, that also completely disqualifies Mat
>> and anyone else older than Olver too. Not that they were ever
>> anything other than loony candidates in the first place...
>
> ObLoony: Elayne's unborn son.
Very loony, though don't think I didn't think of it also.
It can't be, as Gaidal vanished before the mini-Trakands
were conceived.
Danil
> Very loony, though don't think I didn't think of it also.
> It can't be, as Gaidal vanished before the mini-Trakands
> were conceived.
We only know that he hadn't been seen in T'Rod for a while; we don't know
when (if) he left. There is wiggle room. . . .
David Chapman
Erm, no. If he'd left *after* they were conceived, yes,
but he left months before.
NotSoLoonyTheory: What if someone destroyed Gaidal
Cain in T'A'R?
Ben Goodman
Also, I don't think that a future First Prince of the Sword is allowed
to be ugly.
Ben Goodman
that its Champion has defected. Think of a scenario where Mat and/or
Perrin kill a traitor Rand so that the Shadow can't win. The Light can't
have a decisive victory at that point, but the Shadow wasn't able to
pull off a victory at that point either due to the secondary champions
of the Light stepping up to the plate.
Ccrrupting the Light's Champion is the easiest way for the Shadow to win
but, despite having done this a couple of times, they still haven't
manage to pull it off. The Shadow is looking more and more incompetent.
Berry Klomp
[snip-a-lot]
> > Q: (inaudible)
> > RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the
> > past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or
> > rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if
> > you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single
> > elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past,
> > when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
> > Shadow, the result has been a draw.
>
> This I don't get. There seemed to be a lot of verbage in the first books
> about how the GLotD wanted to break the cycles for ever. How can the
> Champion of the Light (aka, Rand/LTT/current age's name) go over to the
> Dark and it be adraw? I remember that Ishy wanted to convet Rand as much
> as kill him. If that only gives them a draw, why would they prefer it?
Well, Jordan only says that past defections have always lead to draws,
perhaps it doesn't always have to be this way?
LTT was a draw, not a victory, right?
In the end he succumbed to the dark and the world was broken.
It could be WORSE, but only if the DO wishes to break the Wheel.
Perhaps the DO did NOT want to break the pattern previously?
First post btw, be gentle to the n00b
-Berry
David Chapman
> Ccrrupting the Light's Champion is the easiest way for the Shadow to
> win but, despite having done this a couple of times, they still
> haven't manage to pull it off. The Shadow is looking more and more
> incompetent.
Hardly; the Shadow knows it doesn't get to win until the Last
Battle. Until then, it wins with a draw in the sense that the
Light isn't so strong next time; in fact, maybe they know it's
the Last Battle *this* time because they've achieved the
requisite number of draws to play for a win.
Gregory W Shaw
> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ben Goodman will say:
>
> > Ccrrupting the Light's Champion is the easiest way for the Shadow to
> > win but, despite having done this a couple of times, they still
> > haven't manage to pull it off. The Shadow is looking more and more
> > incompetent.
>
> Hardly; the Shadow knows it doesn't get to win until the Last
> Battle. Until then, it wins with a draw in the sense that the
> Light isn't so strong next time; in fact, maybe they know it's
> the Last Battle *this* time because they've achieved the
> requisite number of draws to play for a win.
>
Sounds about right to me. My old looney theory was that the seals where
all part of the DO's and Ishy's master plan at the end of the AoL. LTT
couldn't be turned so the seals where the fallback plan. But with the
original intention that both saidar and saidin would be used to place
the seals. With all channellers being subject to the taint the world
would be in an even worse position when the seals inevitably
deteriorated and the DO finally broke free.
That presumes that the taint was an intended effect rather than a side
effect. Even without the taint it would probably still been a useful
plan. Reset the game, but stack the desk with the forsaken for the next
go around.
Greg Shaw
Ben Goodman
> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ben Goodman will say:
>
>
>>Ccrrupting the Light's Champion is the easiest way for the Shadow to
>>win but, despite having done this a couple of times, they still
>>haven't manage to pull it off. The Shadow is looking more and more
>>incompetent.
>
>
> Hardly; the Shadow knows it doesn't get to win until the Last
> Battle. Until then, it wins with a draw in the sense that the
> Light isn't so strong next time; in fact, maybe they know it's
> the Last Battle *this* time because they've achieved the
> requisite number of draws to play for a win.
>
If this were true, why were Ishy and Lanfear trying to corrupt Rand so
hard in the first 4 books or so? Also, stating that they have the
requisite number of draws to play for a win implies some very
complicated rules. I don't see the Creater setting that type of rule and
I don't see the Dark One playing by any type of rule. He seizes whatever
he can take. If he hasn't managed to win yet, it's because he hasn't
been able to sieze victory.
Jim Mansfield
news:9e4f3d62.03011...@posting.google.com:
> Jim Mansfield <j...@jmansfield.DELETEME.com> wrote in message
> news:<Xns930754C87F880...@63.240.76.16>...
>
> [snip-a-lot]
>
>> > Q: (inaudible)
>> > RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the
>> > past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or
>> > rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if
>> > you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single
>> > elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past,
>> > when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
>> > Shadow, the result has been a draw.
>>
>> This I don't get. There seemed to be a lot of verbage in the first
>> books about how the GLotD wanted to break the cycles for ever. How
>> can the Champion of the Light (aka, Rand/LTT/current age's name) go
>> over to the Dark and it be adraw? I remember that Ishy wanted to
>> convet Rand as much as kill him. If that only gives them a draw, why
>> would they prefer it?
>
> Well, Jordan only says that past defections have always lead to draws,
> perhaps it doesn't always have to be this way?
>
> LTT was a draw, not a victory, right?
> In the end he succumbed to the dark and the world was broken.
I always took that LTT had to have won in his way. It's like, um, what's his name,
the theorist that Rand and Min go to (who gets killed by the gholam): if
it really is a wheel, then someone like Lanfear has to make the Bore,
someone like LTT has to patch it up but badly, and someone like Rand has
to make it whole again. The only way out of the "wheel" is to have the DO
win and break the cyle
I don't get RJ's new twist that subverting Rand could be a "draw".
It kind of goes against the whole Wheel of Time thing.
> It could be WORSE, but only if the DO wishes to break the Wheel.
> Perhaps the DO did NOT want to break the pattern previously?
>
> First post btw, be gentle to the n00b
Methinks you did very well for your first post ;-)
-Jim
wonkycyber The Dark Revolutionist
>
>It kind of goes against the whole Wheel of Time thing.
>
Well, the way I see it is that if the Great Lord's still stuck in the Bore,
then he obviously hasn't won yet. Just turning Rand isn't going to be enough to
break the wheel, since he can always be severed and stilled by thirteen of
those wacky AS.
I mean, the deck's stacked against the Dark. I'm guessing a complete victory
for the Dark would be turning Rand and setting the GL completely free before
anyone else can do anything.
Sure, Rand can be turned, but whack him with an sad bracelet and what do you
have? A DF who can't do anything moderately useful.
Which is probably why Perrin and Mat are there: Counterweight Rand in case he
turns. Random thoughts and rambling, since I'm like, tired.
_______________________
~wonkycyber/ANDREW Ingle
afu no movie akio -- with his Planeterium Playset!
http://members.tripod.com/~dark_revolution/ -- The Dark Revolution
"Isn't it surrealistic and good?" ~Suzaku, Yuu Yuu Hakusho
Jim Hill
[Time in t'a'r never runs backward, so who's Gaidal?]
>> [B]y inference, that also completely disqualifies Mat and
>> anyone else older than Olver too. Not that they were ever anything
>> other than loony candidates in the first place...
>
>ObLoony: Elayne's unborn son.
Can't be. In all his incarnations, Gaidal is butt-ugly and Birgitte
hates him at first -- and neither of those will be true for the progeny
of Rand and Birgitte's Aes Sedai (she felt love flowing through the
Bond, a love so strong it made her head spin. 'I need to sit down', she
thought, as she gingerly lowered herself to an Altaran divan cross-cut
in red and white as a gift to the fourth Queen of Andor, Asspayne, who
had undoubtedly had nothing to do with the selection of those _awful_
Saldaean antimacassars. 'Almost as bad as a handkerchief!').
Jim
--
Life's Unanswered Question #481: Why are so
many people simply unable to spell "lose"?
Brian D. Fernald
<snip>
>
>>Q: (inaudible)
>>RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the
>> past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or
>> rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if
>> you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single
>> elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past,
>> when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
>> Shadow, the result has been a draw.
>
>
> This I don't get. There seemed to be a lot of verbage in the first books
> about how the GLotD wanted to break the cycles for ever. How can the
> Champion of the Light (aka, Rand/LTT/current age's name) go over to the
> Dark and it be adraw? I remember that Ishy wanted to convet Rand as much
> as kill him. If that only gives them a draw, why would they prefer it?
>
A bit of speculation.
The CoL's blood causes a partial solution regardless of how it is
spilled. If he dies fighting the dark, a partial solution is reached.
If he dies fighting the light, a partial solution is reached.
If he doesn't die fighting the light, the pattern gets broken, and the
Great Lord wins. If he doesn't die fighting the dark, the pattern
continues.
--
Brian F.
FSOBN.
Jim Mansfield
Sorry to respond to my own post, but I looked up the name: Hedrid Fel.
> I don't get RJ's new twist that subverting Rand could be a "draw".
>
> It kind of goes against the whole Wheel of Time thing.
The more I think about it, the more I am confused by a concept of a draw
in the WoT. If the wheel has been turning for ages and ages, then
obviously it's been through a "Rand" phase many times before. And an LTT
phase. And other phases that we don't know about.
So what's the "draw" in that? Each time the GLotD has tried to get loose, he's
been returned to his prison safely.
Ah well, more confusion :-(
-Jim
LizM7
> Leigh Butler wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:17:34 GMT, Tim Kington
> > <timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com> wrote:
> > >Q: He's too old.
> > >RJ: Yes. Time in TAR and the real world run at different
> > > rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an
> > > hour in TAR, and a day has passed when you get back, or
> > > you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get
> > > back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on
> > > Monday.
> >
> > Huh again. And by inference, that also completely disqualifies Mat and
> > anyone else older than Olver too. Not that they were ever anything
> > other than loony candidates in the first place...
>
> ObLoony: Elayne's unborn son.
Damn it, I thought of that one myself.
- Liz
Jim Mansfield
news:3E2991...@webspan.net:
>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:17:34 GMT, Tim Kington
>> <timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com> wrote:
>> >CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003
[snip Is Olver Gaidal Cain?]
>> Huh again. And by inference, that also completely disqualifies Mat
>> and anyone else older than Olver too. Not that they were ever
>> anything other than loony candidates in the first place...
>
> ObLoony: Elayne's unborn son.
We haven't seen very many pregnancies or children born since around when
Gaidal disappeared.
NewLooney: What about one of the twins that Amys (I think it's Amys that
has the twins) carries? The timing is not too bad (ie, it happened
shortly after GC disappeared from T'A'R.). Although it was books ago,
actual time in Randland seems to be passing very slowly on a
book-by-book vasis!
-Jim
Dave Rothgery
> Richard Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in
> news:3E2991...@webspan.net:
> > Leigh Butler wrote:
> >> On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:17:34 GMT, Tim Kington
> >> <timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com> wrote:
>
> >> >CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003
>
> [snip Is Olver Gaidal Cain?]
>
> >> Huh again. And by inference, that also completely disqualifies Mat
> >> and anyone else older than Olver too. Not that they were ever
> >> anything other than loony candidates in the first place...
> >
> > ObLoony: Elayne's unborn son.
>
> We haven't seen very many pregnancies or children born since around when
> Gaidal disappeared.
>
> NewLooney: What about one of the twins that Amys (I think it's Amys that
> has the twins) carries?
Melanie. Amys and Rhuarc's children are adults.
--
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drot...@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com
David Chapman
> David Chapman wrote:
>> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ben Goodman will say:
>>
>>
>>> Ccrrupting the Light's Champion is the easiest way for the Shadow to
>>> win but, despite having done this a couple of times, they still
>>> haven't manage to pull it off. The Shadow is looking more and more
>>> incompetent.
>>
>>
>> Hardly; the Shadow knows it doesn't get to win until the Last
>> Battle. Until then, it wins with a draw in the sense that the
>> Light isn't so strong next time; in fact, maybe they know it's
>> the Last Battle *this* time because they've achieved the
>> requisite number of draws to play for a win.
>>
>
> If this were true, why were Ishy and Lanfear trying to corrupt Rand so
> hard in the first 4 books or so?
Because to win, they need to corrupt the Dragon.
> Also, stating that they have the
> requisite number of draws to play for a win implies some very
> complicated rules.
It's an analogy, Ben. Each time the Light fails to completely
overcome the Shadow, the Light grows weaker and the
Shadow grows stronger (see: the Blight). The Light is now
weak enough that it can no lnoger be certain of overcoming
the Shadow *at all*.
Richard Boye'
It's Melaine and Bael, and they are twin girls, already named Egwene and
Min.
tom dunne
>
> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ben Goodman will say:
>
> > David Chapman wrote:
> >> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ben Goodman will say:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Ccrrupting the Light's Champion is the easiest way for the Shadow to
> >>> win but, despite having done this a couple of times, they still
> >>> haven't manage to pull it off. The Shadow is looking more and more
> >>> incompetent.
> >>
> >>
> >> Hardly; the Shadow knows it doesn't get to win until the Last
> >> Battle. Until then, it wins with a draw in the sense that the
> >> Light isn't so strong next time; in fact, maybe they know it's
> >> the Last Battle *this* time because they've achieved the
> >> requisite number of draws to play for a win.
> >>
> >
> > If this were true, why were Ishy and Lanfear trying to corrupt Rand so
> > hard in the first 4 books or so?
>
> Because to win, they need to corrupt the Dragon.
To cite Tim's original post, quoting RJ:
"In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
Shadow, the result has been a draw."
According to that, corruption is a tie for the DO, not a win.
Personally, I'm thinking that's a crock and Jordan misspoke or hasn't
really considered the answer, as that goes contrary to everything we've
seen thus far (unless anyone wants to argue that the DO started out this
age playing for a draw).
My guess would be something more complex than that. As we saw in TGH,
there are many other 'dimensions' out there (and again confirmed through
the Accepted ter'angreal, I think), a nigh infinite permutation of
worlds. In some of those worlds, it's suggested that the DO has already
won. The world in which Rand meets Lanfear appears to be one of those,
and I'd contend that many (all?) of the "I win again, Lews Therin"
dreams were examples of triumphs by the DO in other instances of the
real world.
Basically, to break the Wheel, the DO has to win in every dimension. As
long as any incarnation of Lews Therin remains unturned, in any realm,
the battle continues and the DO's victory is not complete. I think it
has to be battle across all dimensions, simply because any one turning
ends the fight in that world forever. If an LTT incarnation is *ever*
turned by the DO, he becomes an immortal servant of the DO and his soul
is never born anew unto that dimension to continue the fight. One
victory in any world for the DO and that world is forever in the Dark.
A win for the DO happens when he turns Lews Therin to the dark (as you
said, Chapman, despite what RJ may have stated). This has happened
countless times through countless ages, over countless dimensions.
A win for the Light happens when the DO is truly defeated, either umade
or put irrevocably out of reach of the Wheel. This has never happened.
A draw occurs when a LTT incarnation dies, or when LTT temporarily seals
away the DO (for the remainder of an Age).
Complete victory for the DO happens when the Wheel stops (all LTT's
turned to the dark) on all dimensions.
Complete victory for the Light happens when any one LTT stands against
the DO and either obliterates him (if possible) or remakes his prison as
the Creator intended, sealing him away forever. Preferrably the former,
so some other incarnations of Meirin and Beidomon don't fuck it up for
everyone.
This might really be THE last Battle, rather than just a clever name, as
perhaps the DO has turned all other LTT's in all other worlds, and only
RandLand remains. The previous incarnation, the actual Lews Therin,
forced a draw by sealing the Bore. This one, Rand al'Thor, is the only
remaining Champion, and if he doesn't at least force a draw, the Wheel
of Time is finally destroyed forever.
From the first book, the DO (well, Ishamael as well) has been bent on
tempting Rand to the Dark, only pursuing his death as an option when
Rand has rebuked the Dark. The entire 'purpose' of Lord of Chaos was to
let Rand go unmolested by the Forsaken, as the DO commanded. Turning
must be the DO's goal, and I just can't see that couting as a 'draw'
when that's obviously much more difficult (and philosophically more
appropriate for the DO) than simple murder of a LTT incarnation.
Jim Mansfield
> Jim Mansfield wrote:
>>
>> Richard Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in
>> news:3E2991...@webspan.net:
>> > Leigh Butler wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:17:34 GMT, Tim Kington
>> >> <timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003
>>
>> [snip Is Olver Gaidal Cain?]
>>
>> >> Huh again. And by inference, that also completely disqualifies Mat
>> >> and anyone else older than Olver too. Not that they were ever
>> >> anything other than loony candidates in the first place...
>> >
>> > ObLoony: Elayne's unborn son.
>>
>> We haven't seen very many pregnancies or children born since around when
>> Gaidal disappeared.
>>
>> NewLooney: What about one of the twins that Amys (I think it's Amys that
>> has the twins) carries? The timing is not too bad (ie, it happened
>> shortly after GC disappeared from T'A'R.). Although it was books ago,
>> actual time in Randland seems to be passing very slowly on a
>> book-by-book vasis!
>
> It's Melaine and Bael, and they are twin girls, already named Egwene and
> Min.
Ah well. So much for that theory!
Back to the drawing board.
-Jim
David Chapman
> David Chapman wrote:
>>
>> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ben Goodman will say:
>>> If this were true, why were Ishy and Lanfear trying to corrupt Rand
>>> so hard in the first 4 books or so?
>>
>> Because to win, they need to corrupt the Dragon.
>
> To cite Tim's original post, quoting RJ:
>
> "In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
> Shadow, the result has been a draw."
A statement which directly implies that *this* time, the result
of such an event may be different.
Nathan Scott
says...
> David Chapman wrote:
> >
> >
> > Because to win, they need to corrupt the Dragon.
>
> To cite Tim's original post, quoting RJ:
>
> "In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
> Shadow, the result has been a draw."
>
> According to that, corruption is a tie for the DO, not a win.
> Personally, I'm thinking that's a crock and Jordan misspoke or hasn't
> really considered the answer, as that goes contrary to everything we've
> seen thus far (unless anyone wants to argue that the DO started out this
> age playing for a draw).
>
Maybe turning is a necessary, but not sufficient condition. Maybe
previous turnings were not truely sincere. The Dragon may have been
intimidated into service, like Ishy tried with rand, but deep in the
Dragon's heart maybe regrets still existed that may have stopped
whatever needed to occur for the DO to win.
--
Nathan Scott
Do not ask me to explain this reality business.
Unfortunately, I had nothing to do with it.
Michelle J. Haines
j...@jmansfield.DELETEME.com says...
>
> NewLooney: What about one of the twins that Amys (I think it's Amys that
> has the twins) carries?
Melaine. And they're both girls.
Michelle
Flutist
--
"Daddy, sometimes schoolwork is better than eating!"
-- Katrina M. Haines, 01-09-03
John S. Novak, III
> David Chapman wrote:
>> > If this were true, why were Ishy and Lanfear trying to corrupt Rand so
>> > hard in the first 4 books or so?
>> Because to win, they need to corrupt the Dragon.
> To cite Tim's original post, quoting RJ:
> "In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
> Shadow, the result has been a draw."
> According to that, corruption is a tie for the DO, not a win.
> Personally, I'm thinking that's a crock and Jordan misspoke or hasn't
> really considered the answer, as that goes contrary to everything we've
> seen thus far (unless anyone wants to argue that the DO started out this
> age playing for a draw).
give him at least a little credit for subtlety. That past turnings of
the Champion of the Light did not result in a total victory does not
imply that turning the Champion of the Light is useless, or that it is
not a good way to get to a total victory.
In fact, I'm sure Jordan has said as much-- there are many forms of
victory and losses in that little game the Dark One and the Creator
play. Presumeably a *total* victory would be the destructin of the
Wheel of Time and the escape of the Dark One from his prison entirely.
(And I still think the whole Wheel is part of his prison.)
Lesser victories would probably include any kind of descration of the
Wheel (and Tainting of Saidin would probably count big time in there)
or anything that makes a subsequent total victory more likely.
(Again, the Tainting.)
What a total victory for the LIght is, I'm not certain, but the
implication is probably that it would be a perfect seal on the Dark
One's prison, such that he could never get out. Or, his total
destruction, if possible.
Which lends credence to the idea that this turning of the Wheel might
indeed be special, if Rand really has a shot at that.
> My guess would be something more complex than that. As we saw in TGH,
> there are many other 'dimensions' out there (and again confirmed through
> the Accepted ter'angreal, I think), a nigh infinite permutation of
> worlds. In some of those worlds, it's suggested that the DO has already
> won. The world in which Rand meets Lanfear appears to be one of those,
> and I'd contend that many (all?) of the "I win again, Lews Therin"
> dreams were examples of triumphs by the DO in other instances of the
> real world.
Those all have to count as lesser victories, though, because I believe
a total victory in any of them results in a total victory in all of
them.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
The Humblest Man on the Net
Alinet2
>No, it's a matter of the Light still forcing a draw despite the fact
>that its Champion has defected.
It seems that the Dragon must be at Tarmon Gaidon but does it say he must
fight? Or even be alive? Maybe his corpse/blood on the rocks is sufficient to
fulfill the prophecy.
Frank van Schie
"John S. Novak, III" wrote:
>
> What a total victory for the LIght is, I'm not certain, but the
> implication is probably that it would be a perfect seal on the Dark
> One's prison, such that he could never get out. Or, his total
> destruction, if possible.
>
> Which lends credence to the idea that this turning of the Wheel might
> indeed be special, if Rand really has a shot at that.
Unlikely. After all, one of Jordan's main motives is that of opposing
forces working both with and against eachother, perpetuating eachother.
Destruction of the Dark One would remove the need for the Wheel of Time,
and thus the Creator (if your idea is correct), and destruction of the
Wheel of Time would remove the need (and, indeed, the setting) for the
Dark One, the Creator and their struggle.
But you knew that, of course.
> Those all have to count as lesser victories, though, because I believe
> a total victory in any of them results in a total victory in all of
> them.
As I recall, it's a paradox. If he stays imprisoned in even one world,
he will be imprisoned in all. If he gets loose in one world, he will get
loose in all. Putting it in practical terms is probably not possible, so
we'll have to forego chucking balefire at it.
--
Frank
Ben Goodman
(snip discussion of what makes a victory for the Dark One, mostly
involving Lews Therin)
One of the problems is that most of our info on this type of stuff is
from Ishamael's point of view and he's quite clearly insane. Not even
all the Forsaken believe it and they have direct access to the Dark One.
Ben Goodman
> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ben Goodman will say:
>
>
>>David Chapman wrote:
>>
>>>The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ben Goodman will say:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ccrrupting the Light's Champion is the easiest way for the Shadow to
>>>>win but, despite having done this a couple of times, they still
>>>>haven't manage to pull it off. The Shadow is looking more and more
>>>>incompetent.
>>>
>>>
>>>Hardly; the Shadow knows it doesn't get to win until the Last
>>>Battle. Until then, it wins with a draw in the sense that the
>>>Light isn't so strong next time; in fact, maybe they know it's
>>>the Last Battle *this* time because they've achieved the
>>>requisite number of draws to play for a win.
>>>
>>
>>If this were true, why were Ishy and Lanfear trying to corrupt Rand so
>>hard in the first 4 books or so?
>
>
> Because to win, they need to corrupt the Dragon.
>
I don't think so. The reason I said it was the easiest was because they
keep trying to do it. It also stands to reason that it's easier to win
if you don't have to fight your greatest threat/enemy.
The fact that only Ishy seems to think that turning Rand is a priority,
and even he seems to think they can do it without turning Rand, seems to
indicate that it can be done a different way.
Also, Ishy was a philosopher and would therefore in all likelihood
prefer a diplomatic solution. I think he would see a military conquest
as beneath him.
Tim Kington
> Tim Kington <timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com> wrote in
> news:Xns93069B38D99D1tk...@24.210.67.113:
>
>> CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003
>>
>
> [pronunciation snippage]
>
>> Then it was our turn to go up. My friend Josh and I had
>> been talking about how Rand and Mat spent a week in
>> Rhuidean, and so he asked how long Mat was hanging. A: Long
>> enough. Long enough for what? A: Long enough to be ALMOST
>> dead. (Emphasis mine) I was pretty sure this was where Mat
>> died and lived again, but I guess that's out of the question
>> now.
>
> Did he agree with your choice of words "almost dead", or did he
> indicate that Mat was dead-dead?
The almost dead thing was his answer. Only the emphasis was mine :)
Someone on Wotmania said that RJ has confirmed that the balefire incident
fulfilled the "die and live again" prophecy. Is this true? I think that
would be kind of weak, mainly because Aviendha and Asmo did the same. It
just makes the whole thing less special, IMO.
Tim
Corey M Seward
[snip Mat dying and living again]
> Someone on Wotmania said that RJ has confirmed that the balefire incident
> fulfilled the "die and live again" prophecy. Is this true? I think that
> would be kind of weak, mainly because Aviendha and Asmo did the same. It
> just makes the whole thing less special, IMO.
That and he died and lived again twice because of balefire (the other time
was when the darkhound slobbered all over him, but Rand bf'ed the
beastie). Seems kinda redundant, to me.
--
----------------->cutting here will ruin your monitor<-----------------
Corey Seward aa467 AT chebucto DOT ns DOT ca
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~aa467 I abuse spammers.
'I call eet "Ze Devil Getting Beetch-Slapped."' www.sinfest.net(00/11/03)
Sean O'Hara
>
> To cite Tim's original post, quoting RJ:
>
> "In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
> Shadow, the result has been a draw."
>
> According to that, corruption is a tie for the DO, not a win.
>
in itself. Either there are a number of other conditions necessary
to win, or there are a number of conditions of which only specific
combinations will yield victory.
The obvious analogy is to Sha'rah -- Rand is the Fisher and
controling him (or forcing your opponent to move him where you
want) is the first step to victory.
What's interesting about RJ's statement is that implies that
not only has the DO never one, but neither has the side of light.
--
Sean O'Hara
Donnie: Why do you wear that stupid rabbit suit?
Frank: Why do you wear that stupid man suit?
--Richard Kelly, "Donnie Darko"
FaceLess
> was when the darkhound slobbered all over him, but Rand bf'ed the
> beastie). Seems kinda redundant, to me.
With the hounds he never died. He felt the biting and was wounded but
BF restored him before he was actually dead.
>
> We only know that he hadn't been seen in T'Rod for a while; we don't
> know when (if) he left. There is wiggle room. . . .
>Erm, no. If he'd left *after* they were conceived, yes,
>but he left months before.
Agrees with the wiggle room. AFAIR Birgitte only mentions that she
hadn't seen GC for a while which usually indicated he was in the real
world but that is no full proof that he actually was reborn before
Birgitte was taken from TAR
Corey M Seward
Please don't snip out attributions (the 'xxx wrote:' part). Thanks.
>> That and he died and lived again twice because of balefire (the other time
>> was when the darkhound slobbered all over him, but Rand bf'ed the
>> beastie). Seems kinda redundant, to me.
> With the hounds he never died. He felt the biting and was wounded but
> BF restored him before he was actually dead.
I don't have the book on hand, but Moiraine mentions that if he had been
bitten the way he remembered, he would already be dead. While Moi has
been wrong before, she did seem to know a fair amount about Darkhounds.
>> We only know that he hadn't been seen in T'Rod for a while; we don't
>> know when (if) he left. There is wiggle room. . . .
I assume this is about Gaidal Cain, but what is it doing here?
[snip]
Peter Reid
> FaceLess <ha...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Please don't snip out attributions (the 'xxx wrote:' part). Thanks.
>
>
>>>That and he died and lived again twice because of balefire (the other time
>>>was when the darkhound slobbered all over him, but Rand bf'ed the
>>>beastie). Seems kinda redundant, to me.
>>
>
>>With the hounds he never died. He felt the biting and was wounded but
>>BF restored him before he was actually dead.
>
> I don't have the book on hand, but Moiraine mentions that if he had
> been bitten the way he remembered, he would already be dead. While
> Moi has been wrong before, she did seem to know a fair amount about
> Darkhounds.
Dead before she got to him and Healed him; not necessarily dead before
the _balefire_ was done...
Remember, Rand shot the balefire from a distance away, then ran over to
find Mat; Moiraine got there a little after he did, so enough time could
have passed for him to have died had balefire not reduced the amount of
poison he received.
--
Peter Reid
peter.j.r...@CAPSsympatico.ca
Scott Carlson
timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com says...
> CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003
<snip a good report>
<Olver isn't Gaidal, due to timing between worlds>
> Q: Is the difference in time constant?
> RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow,
> sometimes the same as real time.
>
> Q: It's different for different people, then?
> RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in TAR. Then the same
> amount of time passes for them obviously.
Yar, that would be me. I think there was a third question in between
these two, but these convey the collective answer. Basically, I took the
opening to ask a couple questions off the cuff regarding T'A'R. It *is* a
one to one correspondence on an individual basis, so as time moves
forward in the real world, it does move forward in TAR as well. However,
the ratio of time in one to time in the other changes, and can be
different for different people at the same time (meaning that while
there's always a one to one between people in TAR, the ratio of time
experienced by one to time experienced by another can change as well),
yet if they are "together" in TAR, they experience time in the same ratio
to an absolute reference point like the real world.
My words, not his of course. Though I wonder what constitutes "together".
Mutual awareness? Physical proximity (in TAR)? Yet another trivial
question for another day.
The Shara question was also mine, and I was amused by the answer.
--
Scott Carlson
Scott Carlson
chris_...@sympatico.ca says...
>
> "Tim Kington" <timki...@hotNOSPmaAMil.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns93069B38D99D1tk...@24.210.67.113...
> > CoT Signing - Dayton, OH - 01/16/2003
>
> > RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the
> > past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or
> > rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if
> > you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single
> > when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the
> > Shadow, the result has been a draw.
>
>
> I understand how it's a game the good guys can only lose once but how
> does the Champion of Light's defection only result in a draw. If the
> Champ knew this he should defect every time and ensure that at least the
> world doesn't go to total hell....
>
> So a loss isn't the CoL(very unfortunate Eddings echo here) giving up. He
> actually has to be defeated. This doesn't mesh well with how I see these
> diety vs. mortal battles going. Since the immortal can obviously kick the
> tar out of the mortal every time the only thing the mortal has going for him
> is his free will. Usually in these things you just have to remain unbroken.
> You may die but as long as you don't give in the good guys end up winning.
> It seems that in this universen this is not the case. the good guy _has_
> given up in the past.....this should logigally result in total victory for
> the baddies.
>
> What are the DO's victory conditions and if conversion is only a draw why
> is he/it so keen on turning Rand. It can only be that he is afraid of
> losing byy why whould he be when a loss isn't final for him while a draw
> merely prolongs the game.
>
> With this info are there enough clues to start positing the endgame
> scenario?
Perhaps the defection draws are when the Champion defects to the Shadow
but then is defeated by the rest of the forces of the Light. Leading the
forces of the Light to victory kills the Shadow, leading the forces of
the Light to defeat is a draw, as is leading the forces of the Shadow to
defeat. Leading the forces of Shadow to victory is game over for the
Light, though.
Think back to the Fisher game (don't have Path of Daggers on hand,
sorry). You can win by either reaching an edge of the right color with
your Fisher, forcing the enemy's Fisher onto the wrong color edge
(although in the real world, this is a draw condition, not a win as in
the game), or just annihilate the opponent's forces early in the game
before the Fisher is captured (comes into play). Thus the Trolloc Wars
are a bid for Victory for the Shadow (annihilation victory), as are
"Ishy, go get the Dragon to turn with your flaming eyes in the weird
room" (capture the Fisher and win victory) and the attempts to kill all
the boys before the Dragon declares (leaving the board open for another
annihilation victory attempt). Let the Lord of Chaos Rule means the DO
doesn't want to kill off the Fisher and take another draw.. this time
he's going for blood.
--
Scott Carlson
Corey M Seward
Ah, that's a possibility, certainly. ISTR getting the impression that
Mat's death would have been before the balefire, but I've been wrong
before.. I'll have to pay more attention the next time I do a re-read.