Favorite Character
Jon
In order:
Matt
Thom
Loial
Rand/Perrin (about equal)
Lan/Moraine (almost always together, so far)
The Girls (Egwene, Nyaeve, Elayne)
I hate reading about the girls. I'll read six chapters in one day until
i get to them, and then it takes me a week to read that chapter, and
then it's back to six or seven in one day, and then a week to read the
next one about them..
Minime8183
Everyone's cool in some way. Sometimes the chapters with Elayne don't bug me
that much. Well here goes.
Matt, the best
Lan, he's cool as hell and kicks ass with a sword to boot.
Rand
Perrin, he grows on you
Thom
Loial really doesnt have any PoV's but he is still a cool character
Moiraine, kind of dead anyway
The Girls
Aaron Hosek
Kevin Bangerter
Jon wrote in message <37B72855...@hotmail.com>...
>Who do you like to read about the most?
>
>
>Matt
Yup
>Thom
OK
>Loial
WTF? What do you like to read about Loial, his reading and writing (that we
never really get to see), or his whining? That's all he really does.
>Rand/Perrin (about equal)
Sure
>Lan/Moraine (almost always together, so far)
Umm... You haven't read the whole series yet, have you?
>The Girls (Egwene, Nyaeve, Elayne)
These are about the last three "girls" that I would single out as
interesting to read about. Min, Avi, and maybe Berelain are the only ones
worth reading about. We at least get to see something other than the
mandatory sniffing, ear boxing, arm crossing, braid tugging that all the
other females do.
-kgb
Jeff Haas
> Who do you like to read about the most?
>
> In order:
>
> Matt
I see that you like him so much that you can even spell his name correctly.
--
Jeff Haas Go Big Red!
Warning: What I say is not necessarily what I mean.
No need to change my reply-to address. Unsolicited
e-mails will be reported to the proper authorities.
Edward Deards
Has anybody other than myself read the entire series (As is
currently published) once by skipping chapters totally devoted to the
Girls? It is quite good, and quite refreshing too, since the girls drive
me mad with frustration. RJ seems to have a very stereotypical view of
women in WoT.
On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Jon wrote:
> Who do you like to read about the most?
>
> In order:
>
> Matt
> Thom
> Loial
> Rand/Perrin (about equal)
> Lan/Moraine (almost always together, so far)
> The Girls (Egwene, Nyaeve, Elayne)
>
Nathan
<the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>Jon wrote in message <37B72855...@hotmail.com>...
>>Who do you like to read about the most?
>>
>>In order:
>>
>>Matt
>
>Yup
Every single survey, he wins.
>>Thom
>
>OK
(Silk + Belgarath)/2 = Thom. How could that ever go wrong?
>>Loial
>
>WTF? What do you like to read about Loial, his reading and writing (that we
>never really get to see), or his whining? That's all he really does.
Well, Im thinking the parts where he single-handedly kicks the ass of
a million and a half trollocs, without channeling. But that aside,
Loial is really a nerd. Most of us are nerds too. Mat, and to a lesser
extent Thom and Lan, are what the nerds who read this series wish they
were. Loial is what they are. (except for the bit about being 10 feet
tall)
>>Rand/Perrin (about equal)
>
>Sure
Perrin is getting to be annoyingly stupid. But Rand is cool.
>>Lan/Moraine (almost always together, so far)
>
>Umm... You haven't read the whole series yet, have you?
Honestly, how much has Lan done since the end of FoH, very very
little. And Moiraine hasn't done anything since the end of FoH. So
unless Lan starts doing something, they still go together.
>>The Girls (Egwene, Nyaeve, Elayne)
I hate these 3. They are EVIL.
>These are about the last three "girls" that I would single out as
>interesting to read about. Min, Avi, and maybe Berelain are the only ones
>worth reading about. We at least get to see something other than the
>mandatory sniffing, ear boxing, arm crossing, braid tugging that all the
>other females do.
And Birgette, shes cool. Actually, anyone who tells Nyn and Elyane
that they are acting like spoiled children is cool, and that part of
CoS where Birgette and Avi do just that is by far the best part of all
the chapters focus on Elyane and Nyn.
Other people who belong on the Favorite Character list:
Bashere. So far as I can tell he is the ONLY guy who has ever just
said "Youre the Dragon Reborn, so your the boss", and that makes him
the Creator compared to all the other nobles we have seen. But he
isn't a complete ass-kisser. His precence in Rand's chapters in the
second half of PoD was a huge plus.
Ishamael. Yes, it is truely sad when the scene with the bad guy are
better then all the scenes staring the Girls combined, but thats the
way it is. As Ba'alzamon most of his scenes thats involve talking to
Rand are just long rants, but when he is doing anything other then
pestering Rand, the pages just radiate 'Cool' :)
LTT. 'Have you got the Horn of Valere in your pocket this time?' :)
Min. When acting like Rand's little boy toy, its a bit lame. But at
least she isn't going out of her way to make Rand's life a living hell
(like the Girls, most Wise Ones, most Aes Sedai, more Maidins of the
Spear, and most everyone seem to be doing)
Uno. Not much to explain, he is just really really cool :)
And everyone else who doesn't try really really hard to give Rand a
hard time. This is a surprisingly small number of people if I went
though and gathered all the names.
Jon
>
> WTF? What do you like to read about Loial, his reading and writing (that we
> never really get to see), or his whining? That's all he really does.
>
True, Loial is kind of a pussy. The parts I like are when he actually
stands up for himself and does something, such as when he grabs that
Trolloc and kills it in TGH (when he kills something for the first
time), etc...
Shadowstalker [ASC]
Jon <fred_me...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:37B72855...@hotmail.com...
> Who do you like to read about the most?
>
> In order:
>
> Matt
> Loial
> Rand/Perrin (about equal)
Elyas
Mat
Rand
Thom
Perrin
Lan/Moirane
Aiel
Forsaken
Everyone else except.....................
The Sea Folk who shouldn't even be worth mentioning.
--
Shadowstalker [ASC]
shadow...@thorngumbald30.freeserve.co.uk
Adaishar Sei'cair [ASC] - Glory to the Wolfkin
ICQ # 38017550
Arlia...@webtv.net
I am gonna get lynched for this but... Moiraine.
She is the One Aes Sedai who is truly in it for the World. She does what
she deems neccessary, no matter what the Personal cost. THAT my friends
is a Hero.
She will be back because she is too interesting a character to stay
dead.
Next Favorite is, Loial because he is the 10 foot muscle Nerd who has
all the time to read I wish I had. besides who else wrestles Trollocs
unarmed and wins? ( hundreds of years of book time, YEAH!)
Next, hmmm Lan because he is the One Man (the one man who Nynaeve HAS to
listen to "Fade into insane laughter")
Besides One man war one the Blight was cool, even if Moiraine stopped
him, but hey he did dunk her in the lake er sumthing like that.
Well heck I will shut up now.
Empress
Okay, why not.
Perrin/Faile (They are equally my favorites)
Nynaeve
Thom (he's not used enough, in my opinion)
Min
Lan
Moiraine
Loial (is that even spelled right)
Elemek
In order:
Matt
[Jon spake:]
Thom
Loial
Rand/Perrin (about equal)
Lan/Moraine (almost always together, so far)
The Girls (Egwene, Nyaeve, Elayne)
I hate reading about the girls. I'll read six chapters in one day until i get
to them, and then it takes me a week to read that chapter, and then it's back
to six or seven in one day, and then a week to read the next one about them..
1. A tie for my favourite characters, between Mat and Narishma.
2. After that, probably Juilin.
3. Nyneave
4. Cadsuiane
5. Probably Lan.
My two favourite Forksaken are Aginor and Asmodean.
All except my two favourites are subject to change at whim.
-Daniel Sutton
Twinkle, twinkle little star,
I do not wonder what you are,
For by spectroscopic ken,
I know that you are hydrogen.
Maia
Well, my favourite characters are:
1. Moraine
2. Lan
3. Thom
4. Siuan
5. Bashere
Those are people who made descision to do their best to save the world
whatever the cost to themselves of their own free will unlike the
three ta'veren who were forced by the Pattern. They didn't constantly
whine about it like Rand, Mat and Perrin. They had/have to work for
their achievements unlike the Boys and the Girls, who just suddenly or
with minimal training can do something vital better than anyone else
or have the events favor them to ridiculuos degree. They don't have
the Girls' abrasiveness and bitchiness and don't waste their time in
silly power-struggles. Hail the true heroes of WOT!
Randy & Sheryl Smith
>
Sounds like this will be unpopular. My favorite character is Egwene, by
far. I think she is very strong.
Then Elayne, Nynaeve, any Aiel except Shaido, Rand, and Bashere.
Sheryl
Nathan
wrote:
>Arlia...@webtv.net schrieb:
>>
>
>Well, my favourite characters are:
>
>1. Moraine
>2. Lan
>3. Thom
>4. Siuan
>5. Bashere
>
>Those are people who made descision to do their best to save the world
>whatever the cost to themselves of their own free will unlike the
>three ta'veren who were forced by the Pattern. They didn't constantly
>whine about it like Rand, Mat and Perrin. They had/have to work for
>their achievements unlike the Boys and the Girls, who just suddenly or
>with minimal training can do something vital better than anyone else
>or have the events favor them to ridiculuos degree. They don't have
>the Girls' abrasiveness and bitchiness and don't waste their time in
>silly power-struggles. Hail the true heroes of WOT!
Well, I would rank Bashere and Thom much higher, based on this type of
scale, and include Loial and Birgette. Birgette has some of the duez
ex machina (I think thats the phrase :) that the main guys have, but
she isn't annoying about it.
And even though these three have barely had bits parts so far, they
would be on that list if they somehow got more lines. Uno, Hurin, and
Bayle Domon :)
JJVORS
1. Nynaeve - She grows up, she matures, she gets married (to her true love),
overcomes her block. all while kicking Forsaken ass. (Score: defeating
Moghedien twice, saving Rand from Rahvin, while dragging around Moggy like
a veriform appendix. Compare this with Rand: he defeated (?) Ishamael three
times (hahaha, LTT, I win again!) lost to Bel'al (thanks Moiraine) lost to
Lanfear
(thanks Moiraine!) lost to Rahvin (read
it--he lost) would have lost to Sammael
without Moridin's help.
True, Nyn has annoying habits and is irrational at times, but who isn't?
If you're still unconvinced, consider this: she left TR to protect the kids.
1) she
helps rescue Perrin and Egwene; 2) She rescues Egwene & Elayne from 3
myrrdrahl. 3) She rescues Egwene from the Seanchan. 4) She rescues Rand from
Rahvin. 5) She helps Mat get off TV by giving him the Amryllin's letter.
6) She saves everyones' butt from Moggy
in Tanchico, then again on the way to
Salidar. 7) She even heals Moiraine and Siuan Sanche and Leane, none of whom
she likes.
She is a hero, who acts despite fear.
2. Mat - there'll be no argument about him.
3. Perrin - he's annoyingly dense at times, but he's good when he loses his
temper. BTW, why hasn't he dreamwalked lately?
4. Siuan Sanche - She gets stilled, almost killed and rescued by Min, and
immediately plans her revenge through Logain. There's a tough schemer. She
can't be Amryllin, so she becomes her advisor--and a good one.
5. Egwene--went from being Rand's girl to AS, to Aiel, to Amryllin. Very
focused and ruthless.
BTW, I started WoT in '94, finished it through LOC in '95 then waited
impatiently for CoS & PoD.
Jeff Smith
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only
begotton Son, that whosoever believes in Him should
not perish, but have everlasting life."
Nathan
>How can I pass this up?
>
>1. Nynaeve - She grows up, she matures, she gets married (to her true love),
>overcomes her block. all while kicking Forsaken ass.
Matures? My oh my, yes, she is just the picture of maturity when she
kicked Mat across the room. And what sort of behavior was that she was
showing while Elyane was fakingly apologizing to Mat, childish? If
anything, Nyn has unmatured from how she was in EotW.
>(Score: defeating
>Moghedien twice, saving Rand from Rahvin, while dragging around Moggy like
> a veriform appendix.
She got luckier then hell both times that she beat Moggy. And dont
forget that Birgette had a very large part in that oh so important
second victory.
>Compare this with Rand: he defeated (?) Ishamael three
>times (hahaha, LTT, I win again!) lost to Bel'al (thanks Moiraine) lost to
Lost to Bel'al? They hadn't started fighting yet! That doesn't count
as a win or a lose, its a nothing.
>Lanfear (thanks Moiraine!) lost to Rahvin (read it
>--he lost) would have lost to Sammael
>without Moridin's help.
Lost to Rahvin? BS. And even thought Rand had help in some of these
fights, do you really think he would have lost without the help? Of
course not, he would have just started balefireing everything that
moves until he wins.
>True, Nyn has annoying habits and is irrational at times, but who isn't?
Oh geez. The important part here is that Nyn's anonying habits is all
that is left after her 4, maybe 5 heroic things. Every single damn
sentence out of her mouth is a reason for her to be removed from the
series.
>If you're still unconvinced, consider this: she left TR to protect the kids.
>1) she helps rescue Perrin and Egwene
Moiraine and Lan rescued them. Bela could have done Nyn's job there.
>2) She rescues Egwene & Elayne from 3 myrrdrahl.
And the maidens outside had nothing to do with it...
>3) She rescues Egwene from the Seanchan.
>4) She rescues Rand from Rahvin.
Rand probably would have won anyway, OK, thats 2 real acts of heroism
>5) She helps Mat get off TV by giving him the Amryllin's letter.
Bullshit. She helped herself, because that letter needed to get moved.
They used Mat because he was the only messanger they had available.
>6) She saves everyones' butt from Moggy
>in Tanchico, then again on the way to
>Salidar.
Act of heroism 3.
>7) She even heals Moiraine and Siuan Sanche and Leane, none of whom
>she likes.
Im not exactly impressed here. Nyn was claiming that she healed Logain
to the sitters, she had to heal Siuan and Leane, she couldn't tell the
sitters "No, I wont try, I dont like them" They would have just forced
her to try if she did that (if not kick her out of Salidar)
>She is a hero, who acts despite fear.
7 acts of heroism. Oooh. Everyone except Min, Egwene, and Elyane beat
that easily just in EotW.
but Hero or not, she is a complete asshole. The two are not mutually
exclusive.
Willum
Randy & Sheryl Smith <rsm...@america.net> wrote in message
news:_Vku3.75$x5....@eagle.america.net...
> >Who do you like to read about the most?
> >
> Hi, new to the group since POD.
>
> Sounds like this will be unpopular. My favorite character is Egwene, by
> far. I think she is very strong.
Well I guess it all depends on your definition of strong. Personally, I
think obstinacy is too often confused with strength of character,
particualrly when it involves some of the female characters (1).
<snip>
--
Willum,
"One who is a Samurai must, before all things, keep constantly in mind, by
day and by night, the fact that he has to die."
- Daidoji Yuzan -16th C.
http://members.xoom.com/greatsword/index.htm
(1) note that I said some, not all.
Willum
Maia <a900...@univie.ac.at> wrote in message
news:37B9A1EC...@univie.ac.at...
> Arlia...@webtv.net schrieb:
<favourite characters>
> Well, my favourite characters are:
>
> 1. Moraine
> 2. Lan
> 3. Thom
> 4. Siuan
> 5. Bashere
Although I don't really have favourites, I think the most sensible and
mature (and therefore most satifying to read about) characters are (in
rough order):
1) Thom
2) Bashere/ Lan/ Rhuarc
3) Moiraine/ Verin (depending on her motives)
4) Min/ Julin
5) Siuan/ Amys
And I also think it is no coincidence that most of them are mature in age.
RJ seems to have a habit of writing his young heroes as incurably immature
and obstinate, with liberal splashings of arrogance and ignorance.
>
> Those are people who made descision to do their best to save the world
> whatever the cost to themselves of their own free will unlike the
> three ta'veren who were forced by the Pattern. They didn't constantly
> whine about it like Rand, Mat and Perrin. They had/have to work for
> their achievements unlike the Boys and the Girls, who just suddenly or
> with minimal training can do something vital better than anyone else
> or have the events favor them to ridiculuos degree.
I agree. I think most of the young heroes (the girls and the boys all) have
had far to much given to them too quickly, without the neccessary struggle
and maturity required. IMHO it is just a little too pat to have Rand as an
emperor and savior, Egwene as an Amrylin, Mat as a general, Perrin as a
king, and Nyn and Elayne as super AS, only a couple of years after
Winternight.
I realise this is an integral part of the story, but it is still annoying,
particularly when these wonder-kids insist on ignoring the counsel of
older, wiser and more experienced characters.
They don't have
> the Girls' abrasiveness and bitchiness and don't waste their time in
> silly power-struggles. Hail the true heroes of WOT!
Amen.
Jon Rubin
(Nathan) wrote:
> On 18 Aug 1999 02:21:37 GMT, jjv...@aol.comCHARN (JJVORS) wrote:
>
> >Compare this with Rand: he defeated (?) Ishamael three
> >times (hahaha, LTT, I win again!) lost to Bel'al (thanks Moiraine) lost to
>
> Lost to Bel'al? They hadn't started fighting yet! That doesn't count
> as a win or a lose, its a nothing.
>
Yah, they HAD started. Bel'al was kicking Rand's ass with swordplay, and
was about to force him to draw Callandor. Rand was giving up, and all of a
sudden Moi showed up and saved the day with her normal melodramatics.
Jeff has a really good point. Rand's yet to succeed on his own at
anything. Maybe he could if everyone stopped butting in to save him
(though for most of the Forsaken situations it seems to me that the only
way he could have would be if Lews popped up and gave him some complex
weaves in his moment of need). The other two ta'veren hold their own once
in awhile, but it seems that every time Rand's about to die, it's someone
ELSE who saves him. I mean, sure, Mat only beat the Gholam with his
foxhead, but the foxhead was something he asked for, so in a way he saved
himself. Rand seems to need help from others despite everything he does to
discourage their presence. It's kinda sad when you only win because the
Aes Sedai you just spent months avoiding found out on her own that a
Forsaken was going to try to kill you.
> Lost to Rahvin? BS.
No, not BS. Rahvin had him trapped. He was totally out of luck until Nyn
torched the guy.
>
> >If you're still unconvinced, consider this: she left TR to protect the
kids.
> >1) she helps rescue Perrin and Egwene
>
> Moiraine and Lan rescued them. Bela could have done Nyn's job there.
>
No, no, as I recall, Nyn *rescues* Bela. You can say all you want that Moi
and Lan were responsible for Perring and Eggy's escape, but Nyn rescued
Bela;P
> >2) She rescues Egwene & Elayne from 3 myrrdrahl.
>
> And the maidens outside had nothing to do with it...
>
You win this one. Hell, forget the Maidens--the other 2 girls started
attacking the Fades right after Nyn did. They could have taken care of
themselves.
--
Jon Rubin
kore...@warped-reality.com
Nathan
Rubin) wrote:
>In article <37ba1d6c...@news.thuntek.net>, bou...@thunREMOVEtek.net
>(Nathan) wrote:
>
>> On 18 Aug 1999 02:21:37 GMT, jjv...@aol.comCHARN (JJVORS) wrote:
>>
>
>> >Compare this with Rand: he defeated (?) Ishamael three
>> >times (hahaha, LTT, I win again!) lost to Bel'al (thanks Moiraine) lost to
>>
>> Lost to Bel'al? They hadn't started fighting yet! That doesn't count
>> as a win or a lose, its a nothing.
>>
>
>Yah, they HAD started. Bel'al was kicking Rand's ass with swordplay, and
>was about to force him to draw Callandor. Rand was giving up, and all of a
>sudden Moi showed up and saved the day with her normal melodramatics.
>
>Jeff has a really good point. Rand's yet to succeed on his own at
>anything.
All 3 Ishy-deaths. His fight against Asmo. he had Asmo beat, and then
Lanfear showed up. She could have beaten Rand down then, but decided
now to, but Rand definatly beat Asmo. And the trip in tDR, it might
not have been a Forsaken, but the constant attacks from just about
everything short of the Forsaken had to be hell. And he killed a lots
and lots and lots of Trollocs and Fades in Tear :)
>Maybe he could if everyone stopped butting in to save him
That would help!
>(though for most of the Forsaken situations it seems to me that the only
>way he could have would be if Lews popped up and gave him some complex
>weaves in his moment of need). The other two ta'veren hold their own once
>in awhile, but it seems that every time Rand's about to die, it's someone
>ELSE who saves him. I mean, sure, Mat only beat the Gholam with his
>foxhead, but the foxhead was something he asked for, so in a way he saved
>himself.
And what is the worst Perrin had to fight hand-to-hand? A Fade? Pft.
>Rand seems to need help from others despite everything he does to
>discourage their presence. It's kinda sad when you only win because the
>Aes Sedai you just spent months avoiding found out on her own that a
>Forsaken was going to try to kill you.
Rand gets help, he doesn't need all of that help. The docks, with
Lanfear, he didn't have a chance because of that whole Lanfear is a
girl crap. Bel'al and Rahvin... he wasn't in the best standing when
the help appeared, but if the help hadn't shown up he would have done
something cool to save his butt (even if it is as lame as ducking when
the Bad-guy blasts Balefire at him, and then BFing the Bad-guy in the
ankles)
>>
>> >If you're still unconvinced, consider this: she left TR to protect the
>kids.
>> >1) she helps rescue Perrin and Egwene
>>
>> Moiraine and Lan rescued them. Bela could have done Nyn's job there.
>>
>
>No, no, as I recall, Nyn *rescues* Bela. You can say all you want that Moi
>and Lan were responsible for Perring and Eggy's escape, but Nyn rescued
>Bela;P
Bela could have pulled up the ropes if (s)he (I forgot) she had more
time :)
rur...@my-deja.com
> Who do you like to read about the most?
DO
Demandred
Shaidar Haran
> Mat
> Thom
> Loial
> Rand/Perrin (about equal)
> Lan/Moraine (almost always together, so far)
> The Girls (Egwene, Nyaeve, Elayne)
All of them. Verin and Cads too. And Taim and Logain. ;^)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Maia
>
> On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:17:11 GMT, kore...@warped-reality.com (Jon
> Rubin) wrote:
>
> >In article <37ba1d6c...@news.thuntek.net>, bou...@thunREMOVEtek.net
> >(Nathan) wrote:
> >
> >> On 18 Aug 1999 02:21:37 GMT, jjv...@aol.comCHARN (JJVORS) wrote:
> >>
> Rand gets help, he doesn't need all of that help. The docks, with
> Lanfear, he didn't have a chance because of that whole Lanfear is a
> girl crap. Bel'al and Rahvin... he wasn't in the best standing when
> the help appeared, but if the help hadn't shown up he would have done
> something cool to save his butt (even if it is as lame as ducking when
> the Bad-guy blasts Balefire at him, and then BFing the Bad-guy in the
> ankles)
Don't think so. The people who saved Rand were there for a reason. If
Jordan thought that Rand was capable of saving himself, he wouldn't
have written those people in the scenes. And from the whole
ta'verenness standpoint it looks like Rand drew his helpers to him
just at the right time, so he could be saved.
And concerning Mat - I disagree with JJVORS who says that Mat having
the medallion was somehow a doing of his - it was just his ridiculous
luck striking again.
JosephS
Jon wrote:
> Who do you like to read about the most?
>
> In order:
>
> Matt
> Thom
> Loial
> Rand/Perrin (about equal)
> Lan/Moraine (almost always together, so far)
> The Girls (Egwene, Nyaeve, Elayne)
>
> I hate reading about the girls. I'll read six chapters in one day until
> i get to them, and then it takes me a week to read that chapter, and
> then it's back to six or seven in one day, and then a week to read the
> next one about them..
I just can't resist saying this. You are going to just _love_ the Path of
Daggers. Especially about the first quarter of the book :)
-Benwa
Stephen J Kirk
> Who do you like to read about the most?
>
> In order:
>
> Matt
> Thom
> Loial
> Rand/Perrin (about equal)
> Lan/Moraine (almost always together, so far)
> The Girls (Egwene, Nyaeve, Elayne)
>
> I hate reading about the girls. I'll read six chapters in one day until
> i get to them, and then it takes me a week to read that chapter, and
> then it's back to six or seven in one day, and then a week to read the
> next one about them..
I disagree - i like anything to do with the power.. my list
Rand
The Girls
Loial
Lan/Moraine - the aes sedai isn't dead really i think
Thom
Perrin/Mat - They really get annoying especially Matt being such a toss. -
he's only ok sometimes...
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Nathan
wrote:
>
>
>Jon wrote:
>
>> Who do you like to read about the most?
>>
>> In order:
>>
>> Matt
>> Thom
>> Loial
>> Rand/Perrin (about equal)
>> Lan/Moraine (almost always together, so far)
>> The Girls (Egwene, Nyaeve, Elayne)
>>
>> I hate reading about the girls. I'll read six chapters in one day until
>> i get to them, and then it takes me a week to read that chapter, and
>> then it's back to six or seven in one day, and then a week to read the
>> next one about them..
>
>I just can't resist saying this. You are going to just _love_ the Path of
>Daggers. Especially about the first quarter of the book :)
>
>-Benwa
Your a mean mean person.
Just skip the first third of PoD, its better that way. The last third,
which is just almost entirely Rand, Bashere, and some soldiers and
Asha'man vs the Seanchan however is a treat :)
jqu...@voicenet.com
>Who do you like to read about the most?
1 - Matt (he's the most fun, stuff happens around him)
2 - Perrin (he's the most stable, he thinks before he acts)
3 - Moiraine (I don't know why, I like her)
4 - Verin (She knows stuff. When she is there, the reader learns stuff.)
5 - Lanfear (like Matt, stuff happens when she is around)
JJVORS
>>
>> On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:17:11 GMT, kore...@warped-reality.com (Jon
>> Rubin) wrote:
>>
>
>Don't think so. The people who saved Rand were there for a reason. If
>Jordan thought that Rand was capable of saving himself, he wouldn't
>have written those people in the scenes. And from the whole
>ta'verenness standpoint it looks like Rand drew his helpers to him
>just at the right time, so he could be saved.
That's how I took it. I have to admit that Rand beat Ishamael 3 times, but did
he
really win? Ishy always came back, in more control than ever. I'll give Rand
credit for surprising Ishy 3 times. Did you notice in CoS Ishy didn't fight
him, but
helped him against Sammael? Guess he learned his lesson.
Regarding the three wonder girls against
the three myrdrahl, does anyone really
think they needed the Aiel to blast their way out of their? Nope. Also note
that
Elayne and Egwene were able to help
AFTER Nyn healed them. Elayne had a
cracked skull and Egwene was drugged.
The myrrdrahl felt the channeling and then
the fireworks started.
No doubt Nyn is immature and hypocritical at times--but she's basically focused
on
helping other people, sometimes at great cost to herself. She's actually like
Mat in
that regard!!!
>And concerning Mat - I disagree with JJVORS who says that Mat having
>the medallion was somehow a doing of his - it was just his ridiculous
>luck striking again.
Er, that was Jon Rubin. Quoting error. Mat is to be given credit for fighting
the gholem after he saw it slaughter Naelesin and get a knife in the back
without bleeding. In this case his stubborn bravery made his luck happen.
ra...@my-deja.com
kore...@warped-reality.com (Jon Rubin) wrote:
> In article <37ba1d6c...@news.thuntek.net>,
bou...@thunREMOVEtek.net
> (Nathan) wrote:
>
> > On 18 Aug 1999 02:21:37 GMT, jjv...@aol.comCHARN (JJVORS) wrote:
> >
>
> > >times (hahaha, LTT, I win again!) lost to Bel'al (thanks Moiraine)
> >
> > as a win or a lose, its a nothing.
> >
>
> Yah, they HAD started. Bel'al was kicking Rand's ass with swordplay,
and
> was about to force him to draw Callandor. Rand was giving up, and all
of a
> sudden Moi showed up and saved the day with her normal melodramatics.
>
> Jeff has a really good point. Rand's yet to succeed on his own at
> anything.
<snip>
Actually, Rand's managed to achieve quite a lot on his own . . .
In EotW, he singlehandedly wiped out the Shadowspawn army at Tarwin's
Gap ( after killing Aginor! ), saving all of Shinear ( at the very
least ), from a full-scale invasion from the Blight. By defeating
Ishy, he managed to end the unnaturally long winter as well. Then, in
tGH, not only did he kill a whole pack of Grolm and manage to get the
Horn, but he also defeated Ishy again, and managed to turn back the
Seanchan ( the Seanchan would have overrun the Heroes if Rand hadn't
beaten Ish ). He survived a journey from Almoth Plain to Tear in tDR,
despite being hunted almost all the way by Darkhounds, Gray Men and the
like. Then, he defeated Ish for a third time before drawing Callandor
and taking control of the Stone. Moiraine may have saved from Be'lal,
but only he could have ended the fighting between the Aiel and the
Defenders. Since then he's defeated another Forsaken, created a lake
in the Aiel Waste, and led the Aiel out of the Waste to take Cairhein.
He's also conquered Illian, defeated the Seanchan again ( PoD ), and
founded two of the most impressive millitary groups the Age has seen,
the Asha'man and the Legion of the Dragon. And as for him losing to
Rahvin . . .
> Rahvin had him trapped. He was totally out of luck until Nyn
> torched the guy.
>
That's true, as far as it goes. But what you fail to mention is what
happens after Nyn attacks Rahvin, which is . . .
"Rahvin screamed in the middle of the flame . . . inside the flame but
surrounded by clear air. Every scrap of _saidar_ she could channel,
but he held it at bay . . . His face was a seared ruin . . . but both
eyes were malevolent as he turned them on her.
No emotion at all reached her along the _a'dam_'s leash, only leaden
dullness. Nynaeve's stomach fluttered. Moghedien had given up. Given
up becuase death was there for them."
( FoH, Ch 55, "The Threads Burn", Pg 874 [ Orbit Paperback ] )
Luckily for Nyn, Rand then saves _her_ by balefiring Rahvin out of the
Pattern. And while Rand may have managed to overcome Rahvin without
Nyn's help, there is no way that Nyn would have survived then without
Rand. So while Nyn may have helped Rand, she certainly didn't save
him. The chances are that both of them would have died without the
other's help, so call it a team effort.
<snip>
Oh, and as for my favourite characters . . .
1. Mazrim Taim
I'm not sure if he's Demandred or not, but either way he's certainly up
to something . . .
2. Ishamael
Completely dedicated to the Dark One and his goals, which is more than
you can say for the rest of the Chosen.
3. Mat Cauthon
Far more of a hero than Perrin or Rand, just for sneaking into the
Stone and for fighting the gholam.
4. Moraine
Not only is she completely dedicated to saving the world, she's also
one of the few likeable Aes Sedai in the books. However, unlike the
majority here, I wouldn't really mind if she stays dead ( As I doubt
she'll live up to people's expectations after all this time ).
5. Ingtar
He may not haved played a large role in the series, but just being the
only Darkfriend in the books to repent and turn to the Light makes hm
far more heroic than the likes of Rand or Nynaeve, ( who have yet to
face any important choices that somebody won't make for them ).
Also worthy of note are Narishma, Logain and Asmodean as respectively
my fourth, fifth and sixth favourite channelers.
"It always the same. Once you're dead, people just don't want to know,
right? They act as if you've got some horrible disease. Dying can
happen to anyone, right? I know what it's like. Tell someone you're
dead and they look at you like they've seen a ghost."
-Terry Pratchett, "Reaper Man"
-
Ramda
SychoBladr
empathy is truly intriguing. Unfortunately she keeps getting paired up with
Nynaeve who is an annoying bitch! Sure Nyn's all about helping people, but
she's a real ingrate and far too self-absorbed. And of course the Sea Folk and
the Kin have produced nothing but mindless bickering. I think RJ should focus
on Elayne's developing relationship with Aviendha and her fight for the Lion
Throne while Nyn and company go off and do more male-bashing. As it stands, my
favorite characters to read about are:
1) Rand- he has so much pent up raw emotion I cringe when i think about what
its like in his head. Plus he holds up admirably with the weight of the world
on his shoulders.
2) Mat- true he's got his vices, but his word is his bond and he really does
care for others no mater what he says
3) Min- she's a caring soul and without her Rand would have tumbled off into
the deep end by now
4) Any Aiel- Ji e' toh kicks ass and the Wise Ones are always good for a laugh
5) Asha 'Man- new Hundred Companions or new Dreadlords? Oh the suspense.
JJVORS
>
>
>I think Elayne is greatly underated as a character. Her mix of aloofness and
>empathy is truly intriguing. Unfortunately she keeps getting paired up with
>Nynaeve who is an annoying bitch! Sure Nyn's all about helping people, but
>she's a real ingrate and far too self-absorbed.
My! Don't we make a pair? I like Nyn and you like Elayne, two of the most
hated
characters in the WoT! Regarding Elayne, I'm looking forward to her doing
what she said to Mat after he saved her, "I want you to let me save you some
time."
Yes, Nyn has been ungrateful. I think much of her bitchiness has been from
insecurity. Now that she's married to Lan maybe she'll unbend a little.
Regarding
next book, I think she and Lan will like up with the borderland armies in
Caemlyn. Oh and I think she'll kick a little DF and
forsaken butt too.
> And of course the Sea Folk
>and
>the Kin have produced nothing but mindless bickering. I think RJ should
>focus
>on Elayne's developing relationship with Aviendha and her fight for the Lion
>Throne while Nyn and company go off and do more male-bashing.
Nyn is best when she's fighting against terrible odds. She'll get a lot of
chances.
It's good Lan got such good training with Moiraine. Nyn will get into more
scrapes
between now and Tarmon Gaidin (?) than Moi did in 20 years.
One more point: Nyn, Elayne and Egw in Falme--city blown up. N, E in
Tanchico--Tanchico riots, Panarche disposed & King killed & palace destroyed.
N & E in Ghealdan--riots and general slaughter. N & E in Ebou Dar--third
invasion of Seanchan, city conquered.
Now they are both in Caemlyn. Any bets on what happens next??? Are they
ta'veren? Are the Forsaken out to get them? Is the Pope catholic?
TANDAW SAMDARSHI
understand... MATT ABSOLUTELY ROCKS!!!! That scene in book 3 when he beat up
both of Elayne's brothers after just recovering from the dagger's taint was
a classic... that's probably one of the best if not the best scence in the
entire series so far. Oh by the way, the series will be 13 books long.
DaBigDawg
SychoBladr <sycho...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990824215207...@ng-fj1.aol.com...
> I think Elayne is greatly underated as a character. Her mix of aloofness
and
> empathy is truly intriguing. Unfortunately she keeps getting paired up
with
> Nynaeve who is an annoying bitch! Sure Nyn's all about helping people,
but
> she's a real ingrate and far too self-absorbed. And of course the Sea
Folk and
> the Kin have produced nothing but mindless bickering. I think RJ should
focus
> on Elayne's developing relationship with Aviendha and her fight for the
Lion
Mark Ferguson
TANDAW SAMDARSHI wrote:
>
> OK... Ok.... now listen here.... MATT ROCKS.... no no, I don't think you
> understand... MATT ABSOLUTELY ROCKS!!!! That scene in book 3 when he beat up
> both of Elayne's brothers after just recovering from the dagger's taint was
> a classic... that's probably one of the best if not the best scence in the
> entire series so far. Oh by the way, the series will be 13 books long.
>
> DaBigDawg
>
[snip]
You're not allowed to have an opinion about a character unless you can
spell his or her name right. Nynaeve may be understandable, but Mat? If
you're going to be in his fan club, you have to be able to spell his
name. :)
TANDAW SAMDARSHI
Mat ROCKS
Mark Ferguson <mfe...@home.com> wrote in message
news:37C4D6B8...@home.com...
Jafo
want to guess what Bryne will do when he finds elayne?
I think Gareth and Bayle Domon will see much more action before TG.
Jeff Graham, Lurking after your best interests since EOTW
ja...@castlegate.net
Erlend Viggen
still found him oddly likeable. He was witty, not too evil, and sometimes even
semi-brave (I'm referring to the scene in TFoH where he goes with Rand, Mat and a
few thousand Aiel to Caemlyn to kill Rahvin). Shame he had to be killed off, since
he could have been so much more.
Erlend Viggen
Kyleth Aybara (aka Kylie)
Mark Ferguson wrote:
> TANDAW SAMDARSHI wrote:
> >
> > OK... Ok.... now listen here.... MATT ROCKS.... no no, I don't think you
> > understand... MATT ABSOLUTELY ROCKS!!!! That scene in book 3 when he beat up
> > both of Elayne's brothers after just recovering from the dagger's taint was
> > a classic... that's probably one of the best if not the best scence in the
> > entire series so far. Oh by the way, the series will be 13 books long.
> >
> > DaBigDawg
> >
> [snip]
>
> You're not allowed to have an opinion about a character unless you can
> spell his or her name right. Nynaeve may be understandable, but Mat? If
> you're going to be in his fan club, you have to be able to spell his
> name. :)
OOH! That really bugs me... people spelling Mat's name wrong....
Kylie
--
Read the address carefully... then reply.
"What ARE you guys doing?! Put me down!"
Never threaten someone who can pick you up by your pants.
Erlend Viggen
> I have always liked Asmodean also; he's the only
> Forsaken with an _interesting_ reason to go over
> to the Shadow; "endless Ages of music". I just
> can't get it out of my head that he looks just
> like Kurt Cobain.
Hmm... He had dark hair where Kurt had light and he was in his middle years where Kurt
was young. He did not look very much like Kurt, as far as I can see.
But a funny comment nonetheless. ;)
> I know he knows the Song,
> goddammit! Well, he's dead now, of course.
Actually, I never thought of that.
Let's see... Maybe the Creator will resurre...nah.
> Unfortunately, he spent most of his time playing
> the "March of Death", to the exclusion of everything
> else. Of course, I couldn't really see him warbling
> "Jiii-iiigely-puff" either. But it would have been
> cute if he'd pulled out a Power-enhanced baliset and
> started jamming, "Enter night; exit light..." ;)
If you think he looks like Kurt Cobain, he'd might start singing "Smells like Teen
Spirit" instead. ;)
Erlend Viggen
Troy Terry
>
> Troy Terry wrote:
>
> > I have always liked Asmodean also; he's the only
> > Forsaken with an _interesting_ reason to go over
> > to the Shadow; "endless Ages of music". I just
> > can't get it out of my head that he looks just
> > like Kurt Cobain.
>
> Hmm... He had dark hair where Kurt had light and he was in his middle years where Kurt
> was young. He did not look very much like Kurt, as far as I can see.
>
> But a funny comment nonetheless. ;)
>
Sometimes when I'm reading a book I have the power to
skip over a character's description because I already
know in my heart what he looks like. F'rinstance,
Jordan has never mentioned Bayle Domon's eyepatch,
hook, or peg-leg. Nor has he mentioned Elaida's
studded-leather collars. I'm terribly disappointed.
> > I know he knows the Song,
> > goddammit! Well, he's dead now, of course.
>
> Actually, I never thought of that.
>
> Let's see... Maybe the Creator will resurre...nah.
>
Oh, heck. If Rand ever meets up with some Tinkers,
I'm sure Lews Therin can hum a few bars of it.
Seriously, though, any bets on whether the Tinkers
will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song
from Rand's Aiel memories.
Yours,
T. Terry
Mark Loy
> Erlend Viggen wrote:
> > > I know he knows the Song,
> > > goddammit! Well, he's dead now, of course.
> >
> > Actually, I never thought of that.
> >
> > Let's see... Maybe the Creator will resurre...nah.
> >
>
> Oh, heck. If Rand ever meets up with some Tinkers,
> I'm sure Lews Therin can hum a few bars of it.
>
> Seriously, though, any bets on whether the Tinkers
> will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song
> from Rand's Aiel memories.
Close.
It's actually "Old Man" by Neil Young from the _album_, "Harvest".
Don't believe me?
Try it.
Sing a few verses of it and watch your chrysanemums swoon.
ML
Mark Ferguson
Troy Terry wrote:
>
> Erlend Viggen wrote:
> >
> > Troy Terry wrote:
> >
[snip it all]
>
> Oh, heck. If Rand ever meets up with some Tinkers,
> I'm sure Lews Therin can hum a few bars of it.
>
> Seriously, though, any bets on whether the Tinkers
> will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song
> from Rand's Aiel memories.
>
> Yours,
> T. Terry
I think that's the general consensus. I'm curious as to walk the Tinkers
would do once they DID find the song. There is very little true Aiel
blood left in them, and if I'm correct the Song is genetic, in terms of
its effects. I believe it's only the Aiel and the Ogier who have the
ability to harvest with the Song. Which _does_ raise a possibility.
Perhaps that remnant of a remnant who survives, are the very few who are
willing to drop their warrior ways and once again follow the Way of the
Leaf. There _would_ be few of those.
mark
Drew Gillmore
Mark Ferguson <mfe...@home.com> wrote:
: Troy Terry wrote:
: > Erlend Viggen wrote:
: > > Troy Terry wrote:
: > >
: [snip it all]
: >
: > Oh, heck. If Rand ever meets up with some Tinkers,
: > I'm sure Lews Therin can hum a few bars of it.
: >
: > Seriously, though, any bets on whether the Tinkers
: > will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song
: > from Rand's Aiel memories.
: I think that's the general consensus. I'm curious as to walk the Tinkers
: would do once they DID find the song. There is very little true Aiel
: blood left in them, and if I'm correct the Song is genetic, in terms of
: its effects. I believe it's only the Aiel and the Ogier who have the
: ability to harvest with the Song. Which _does_ raise a possibility.
: Perhaps that remnant of a remnant who survives, are the very few who are
: willing to drop their warrior ways and once again follow the Way of the
: Leaf. There _would_ be few of those.
The _Songs_ were sung with Nym, Ogier and people who had "The Voice". It
sounds to me like a Talent. It was a harbinger of more peaceful times
that some of the Aiel latched onto when the knowledge of the Singing
became myth, something to give them hope in a Broken World. There is no
single "Song" that will bring back peace.
The Da'shain Aiel were defined by two things. One, they served the Aes
Sedai. Two, they followed the Way of the Leaf. The Singing had no part
of either, but was something that was separate altogether. Funny that the
Tinkers are closer to Da'shain than the Aiel.
The Voice was never Aiel Specific, it was just something that they were
tested for.
The Combination of the singing (Treesinging) and the Nym's natural ability
to make things grow went towards planting the fields. It seems the Talent
of Treesinging is still around in some Ogier (Loial, for example), but it
seems to have largely died out in humans. It's also possible that it's
still there, just unlooked for.
The Tinkers are looking for something that never existed. A solitary Song
that will bring peace. The Songs were a result of the peace and
prosperity, not the other way around.
--
Drew Gillmore http://www2.crosswinds.net/~drewgillmore/
Key Features: Drew's Reality, Mini-FAQ, National Social Reports.
Steven Cooper
>Seriously, though, any bets on whether the Tinkers
>will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song
>from Rand's Aiel memories.
I asked RJ about this when he was in Melbourne last week, and (amazingly)
got a straight answer. The Song the Tinkers are seeking *is* the song Rand
heard in Rhuidean -- or, to be exact, the memories of that song and others
like it have become merged, over the years, into the concept of one
mystical Song.
As to whether the Tinkers will find "the Song", I suspect they will -- at
least, they will be brought to understand their true history just as the
Aiel were. RJ seems to intend showing an upheaval affecting every nation
and society in Randland during the course of the series. I doubt the
Tinkers will survive unchanged into the next Age. Unless they all get
wiped out, I think "the Song" will be found at some point.
--
Steven Cooper | "I'm entitled to my opinion!"
Melbourne, Australia. | "It is your assumption that we are entitled
saco...@ozemail.com.au | to it as well that is irritating."
Mike Ryan
>
> Troy Terry wrote:
> >
> > Erlend Viggen wrote:
> > >
> > > Troy Terry wrote:
> > >
> [snip it all]
> >
> > Oh, heck. If Rand ever meets up with some Tinkers,
> > I'm sure Lews Therin can hum a few bars of it.
> >
> > will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song
> > from Rand's Aiel memories.
> >
> > T. Terry
>
> I think that's the general consensus. I'm curious as to walk the Tinkers
> would do once they DID find the song. There is very little true Aiel
> blood left in them, and if I'm correct the Song is genetic, in terms of
> its effects. I believe it's only the Aiel and the Ogier who have the
> ability to harvest with the Song. Which _does_ raise a possibility.
> Perhaps that remnant of a remnant who survives, are the very few who are
> willing to drop their warrior ways and once again follow the Way of the
> Leaf. There _would_ be few of those.
Actually I've always thought Aram will discover the song. In discovering
it he will bring the Aiel and Tinkers back together once again. He is
the perfect one to bridge the gap between Tinker and Aiel. He up until
he picked up the sword followed the way of the leaf and now follows the
way of the sword. He is anathema to both Tinkers for wielding a weapon
and Aiel for wielding a sword. Even though each group hates him for a
different reason he understands both groups views. When the Aiel are
broken and probably a great deal of the Tinkers dead he will be the one
to lead the remnant of a remnant.
Another sort of on topic question. Do you think the song has anything to
do with the Finns? After all one of the doorways was found in Rhuidean.
Another reason for this question is in the series music plays a key roll
in two things, 1)the lost song, 2)the Finns rule against no musical
instruments. Can not a voice be considered a musical instrument?
Erlend Viggen
Mike Ryan wrote:
<ka-snip>
> Another sort of on topic question. Do you think the song has anything to
> do with the Finns? After all one of the doorways was found in Rhuidean.
> Another reason for this question is in the series music plays a key roll
> in two things, 1)the lost song, 2)the Finns rule against no musical
> instruments. Can not a voice be considered a musical instrument?
I don't think the song has anything to do with the Finns. I think it was just
coincidence that the twisted doorway was one of the ter'angreal that the
Da'shain brought from the ruins of the war and was of the few that remained
when Rhuidean was built. And besides, only _one_ doorway was found in
Rhuidean. The other, as you surely recall, was in Tear. Well, originally it
was in Mayene, but the Mayeners gave it to the Tairens as a peace offering.
As to your voice-music instrument question, I'm sure everbody has the ability
to sing to some degree or other (even if they sound like stepped-on frogs,
singing). Heck, even the Finn probably has the potential to sing a cheerful
little ditty if they wanted.
Erlend Viggen
Erlend Viggen
Troy Terry wrote:
<snip>
> Unfortunately, he spent most of his time playing
> the "March of Death", to the exclusion of everything
> else. Of course, I couldn't really see him warbling
> "Jiii-iiigely-puff" either. But it would have been
> cute if he'd pulled out a Power-enhanced baliset and
> started jamming, "Enter night; exit light..." ;)
Ah-ha! A Power-enhanced baliset! I suppose that trick of amplifying that the SAS pulled
off in Salidar when Tarna had left could be applied to instruments so that the sound
would be louder. In fact, you could probably change the weave a little, so the
instruments' sound would be distorted, making fuzz and extra bass a possibility.
And then, the AS could tie off these weaves and mass-produce these instruments and then
sell them for lots of money and create a new Age of music. And become filthy rich. Which
is good.
Erlend Viggen
Troy Terry
>
> Mark Ferguson wrote:
> >
> > Troy Terry wrote:
> > >
> > > Erlend Viggen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Troy Terry wrote:
> > > >
> > [snip it all]
> > >
> > > Oh, heck. If Rand ever meets up with some Tinkers,
> > > I'm sure Lews Therin can hum a few bars of it.
> > >
> > > Seriously, though, any bets on whether the Tinkers
> > > will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song
> > > from Rand's Aiel memories.
> > >
> > > Yours,
> > > T. Terry
> >
> > I think that's the general consensus. I'm curious as to walk the Tinkers
> > would do once they DID find the song. There is very little true Aiel
> > blood left in them, and if I'm correct the Song is genetic, in terms of
> > its effects. I believe it's only the Aiel and the Ogier who have the
> > ability to harvest with the Song. Which _does_ raise a possibility.
> > Perhaps that remnant of a remnant who survives, are the very few who are
> > willing to drop their warrior ways and once again follow the Way of the
> > Leaf. There _would_ be few of those.
>
There are already lots of these; the gaishain
who do not give up the white. I don't believe
that the Aiel are likely to go back to the Way
very soon.
> Actually I've always thought Aram will discover the song. In discovering
> it he will bring the Aiel and Tinkers back together once again. He is
> the perfect one to bridge the gap between Tinker and Aiel. He up until
> he picked up the sword followed the way of the leaf and now follows the
> way of the sword. He is anathema to both Tinkers for wielding a weapon
> and Aiel for wielding a sword. Even though each group hates him for a
> different reason he understands both groups views. When the Aiel are
> broken and probably a great deal of the Tinkers dead he will be the one
> to lead the remnant of a remnant.
>
The FAQ presents some good, though circumstantial,
evidence for him being a Darkfriend. He's already
become a cold-blooded killer, and dispassionately
muses on butchering helpless (tho' AS) captives. I
think his role is to cause problems for Perrin, and
maybe come back to the Light to help save Faile.
Yours,
T. Terry
Troy Terry
>
> Mark Ferguson <mfe...@home.com> wrote:
> : Troy Terry wrote:
> : > Erlend Viggen wrote:
> : > > Troy Terry wrote:
> : > >
> : [snip it all]
> : >
> : > Oh, heck. If Rand ever meets up with some Tinkers,
> : > I'm sure Lews Therin can hum a few bars of it.
> : >
> : > Seriously, though, any bets on whether the Tinkers
> : > will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song
> : > from Rand's Aiel memories.
> : I think that's the general consensus. I'm curious as to walk the Tinkers
> : would do once they DID find the song. There is very little true Aiel
> : blood left in them, and if I'm correct the Song is genetic, in terms of
> : its effects. I believe it's only the Aiel and the Ogier who have the
> : ability to harvest with the Song. Which _does_ raise a possibility.
> : Perhaps that remnant of a remnant who survives, are the very few who are
> : willing to drop their warrior ways and once again follow the Way of the
> : Leaf. There _would_ be few of those.
>
> sounds to me like a Talent. It was a harbinger of more peaceful times
> that some of the Aiel latched onto when the knowledge of the Singing
> became myth, something to give them hope in a Broken World. There is no
> single "Song" that will bring back peace.
>
>
> The Tinkers are looking for something that never existed. A solitary Song
> that will bring peace. The Songs were a result of the peace and
> prosperity, not the other way around.
>
Jeez, Drew, you just _had_ to sneer at the Tinkers'
beautiful dream, didn't you? ;)
Even if the Tuatha'an do rediscover the planting song,
I think they're too much into wandering now to become
farmers. I think they'll stay much the way they are,
travelling from town to town stealing everything in
sight, occasionally providing agricultural consulting
services in passing.
If they _really_ wanted to make some dough, they'd give
classes in the tiganza. Then they wouldn't have to shop
at the Army of Salvation-and-Rebirth.
(Has anyone considered that the Tinkers might just be
color-blind?)
Yours,
T. Terry
Brian McCormick
> Actually I've always thought Aram will discover the song. In discovering
> it he will bring the Aiel and Tinkers back together once again. He is
> the perfect one to bridge the gap between Tinker and Aiel. He up until
> he picked up the sword followed the way of the leaf and now follows the
> way of the sword. He is anathema to both Tinkers for wielding a weapon
> and Aiel for wielding a sword. Even though each group hates him for a
> different reason he understands both groups views. When the Aiel are
> broken and probably a great deal of the Tinkers dead he will be the one
> to lead the remnant of a remnant.
I think he's far from perfect for that role, and the possibility that he
is a darkfriend is only the beginning of the imperfection. Your
suggestion holds merit if you believe that both the Tinkers and the Aiel
will eventually become sword wielding warriors, but that seems unlikely
to me.
Personally, I think the hope for the Aiel is a return to the Way of the
Leaf (after Tarmon Gaidon, of course). In that hope, there is an
opportunity for them to be reunited with the Tinkers, and for the "song"
to be sung again as it was of old. Aram has chosen violence over the
Way of the Leaf, however, so if this future comes to pass I see little
hope for him to be anything other than an outcast.
-- Brian
etherman
Troy Terry <tte...@pbi.net> wrote in message
news:37CEBF4B...@pbi.net...
> Mike Ryan wrote:
> The FAQ presents some good, though circumstantial,
> evidence for him being a Darkfriend. He's already
> become a cold-blooded killer,
I'm sure none of the good guys would have a problem killing
a man if they thought they had "good reason." Rand does
it in TDR.
> and dispassionately
> muses on butchering helpless (tho' AS) captives.
He was right about this. There's absolutely no reason
to feel guilty about killing them.
> I
> think his role is to cause problems for Perrin, and
> maybe come back to the Light to help save Faile.
I hope not. I want Faile dead.
--
Etherman
etherman
> Even if the Tuatha'an do rediscover the planting song,
> I think they're too much into wandering now to become
> farmers. I think they'll stay much the way they are,
> travelling from town to town stealing everything in
> sight, occasionally providing agricultural consulting
> services in passing.
Maybe after TG they'll wander around the Blight
undoing all the damage.
--
Etherman
Mike Ryan
>
> Mike Ryan wrote:
>
> > Actually I've always thought Aram will discover the song. In discovering
> > it he will bring the Aiel and Tinkers back together once again. He is
> > the perfect one to bridge the gap between Tinker and Aiel. He up until
> > he picked up the sword followed the way of the leaf and now follows the
> > way of the sword. He is anathema to both Tinkers for wielding a weapon
> > and Aiel for wielding a sword. Even though each group hates him for a
> > different reason he understands both groups views. When the Aiel are
> > broken and probably a great deal of the Tinkers dead he will be the one
> > to lead the remnant of a remnant.
>
> I think he's far from perfect for that role, and the possibility that he
> is a darkfriend is only the beginning of the imperfection. Your
> suggestion holds merit if you believe that both the Tinkers and the Aiel
> will eventually become sword wielding warriors, but that seems unlikely
> to me.
Sort of but not quite. Aiel and Tinkers are of diametrically opposed
ideals. Tinkers are the ultimate in pacifists and Aiel are ultimate
warriors. Once they were united as one tribe of pacifists, a split
occurred with Aiel becoming warriors. Neither groups views really work
in a semi-civilezed world as is seen in the novels. Aram will step in
bridging the gap being part of both belief systems. He will mish and
mash ideals getting rid of those that are completely opposite and create
a new set of rules and beliefs. This new group of people will become
something
along the lines of the protectors of nature(ala adnd Rangers) if more
militant or Druids if more peaceful. IMO of course.
> Personally, I think the hope for the Aiel is a return to the Way of the
> Leaf (after Tarmon Gaidon, of course). In that hope, there is an
> opportunity for them to be reunited with the Tinkers, and for the "song"
> to be sung again as it was of old. Aram has chosen violence over the
> Way of the Leaf, however, so if this future comes to pass I see little
> hope for him to be anything other than an outcast.
You could be right but I always thought there had to be a reason to have
some one from a totally peaceful culture become a warrior. RJ doesn't
seem to me the type to do something this dramatic without a purpose.
Ben Wolfson
>
> Brian McCormick wrote:
> >
> > Mike Ryan wrote:
> along the lines of the protectors of nature(ala adnd Rangers) if more
> militant or Druids if more peaceful. IMO of course.
Nothing like human sacrifice to establish a reputation for peacefulness.
--
Barnabas T. Rumjuggler
"No, 'eureka' is Greek for 'this bath is too hot'"
--Doctor Who
Mike Ryan
I think it safe to assume both doors were created by Aes Sedai. Why was
this one part of the things given to the Aiel to protect? My assumption
is ever piece they were given is powerful and perhapse dangerous ala the
two figurines and doorway. There had to be a reason they were given
specific things to hide and protect. Why? Also in one of the doorways
Mat kept seeing a broken tree. Could this be the Tree of Life in an
alternate world and the musical instrument thing is too keep Tree
Singers away so that they don't repair the tree. Just some random
thoughts.
Sriram Ramkrishna
: On Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:18:19 -0700, Troy Terry <tte...@pbi.net> wrote:
:>Seriously, though, any bets on whether the Tinkers
:>will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song
:>from Rand's Aiel memories.
: I asked RJ about this when he was in Melbourne last week, and (amazingly)
: got a straight answer. The Song the Tinkers are seeking *is* the song Rand
: heard in Rhuidean -- or, to be exact, the memories of that song and others
: like it have become merged, over the years, into the concept of one
: mystical Song.
: As to whether the Tinkers will find "the Song", I suspect they will -- at
: least, they will be brought to understand their true history just as the
: Aiel were. RJ seems to intend showing an upheaval affecting every nation
: and society in Randland during the course of the series. I doubt the
: Tinkers will survive unchanged into the next Age. Unless they all get
: wiped out, I think "the Song" will be found at some point.
Maybe this can be put in the FAQ?
sri
Janet Cone
>Drew Gillmore wrote:
>>
>> Mark Ferguson <mfe...@home.com> wrote:
>> : Troy Terry wrote:
>> : > Erlend Viggen wrote:
>> : > > Troy Terry wrote:
>> : > >
>> : [snip it all]
>> : >
>> : > Oh, heck. If Rand ever meets up with some Tinkers,
>> : > I'm sure Lews Therin can hum a few bars of it.
>> : >
>> : > Seriously, though, any bets on whether the Tinkers
>> : > will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song
>> : > from Rand's Aiel memories.
>> :
>> : I think that's the general consensus. I'm curious as to walk the Tinkers
>> : would do once they DID find the song. There is very little true Aiel
>> : blood left in them, and if I'm correct the Song is genetic, in terms of
>> : its effects. I believe it's only the Aiel and the Ogier who have the
>> : ability to harvest with the Song. Which _does_ raise a possibility.
>> : Perhaps that remnant of a remnant who survives, are the very few who are
>> : willing to drop their warrior ways and once again follow the Way of the
>> : Leaf. There _would_ be few of those.
>>
>> The _Songs_ were sung with Nym, Ogier and people who had "The Voice". It
>> sounds to me like a Talent. It was a harbinger of more peaceful times
>> that some of the Aiel latched onto when the knowledge of the Singing
>> became myth, something to give them hope in a Broken World. There is no
>> single "Song" that will bring back peace.
>>
>[...]
>>
>> The Tinkers are looking for something that never existed. A solitary Song
>> that will bring peace. The Songs were a result of the peace and
>> prosperity, not the other way around.
>>
>
>Jeez, Drew, you just _had_ to sneer at the Tinkers'
>beautiful dream, didn't you? ;)
>
>Even if the Tuatha'an do rediscover the planting song,
>I think they're too much into wandering now to become
>farmers. I think they'll stay much the way they are,
>travelling from town to town stealing everything in
>sight, occasionally providing agricultural consulting
>services in passing.
>
>If they _really_ wanted to make some dough, they'd give
>classes in the tiganza. Then they wouldn't have to shop
>at the Army of Salvation-and-Rebirth.
>
>(Has anyone considered that the Tinkers might just be
>color-blind?)
Maybe they are a bit short staffed in the cone department rather than
being completely depleted
|\ _,,,---,,_ Janet (and Berelain) |
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
Moonfall
leaf?
Moonfall
*slinks back under her rock*
Arlia...@webtv.net
dont end up following the Way of the Leaf?"
No you are not. I liked the Aiel better before they found out they used
to be peaceful and got all depressed about it. Of course I think they
are silly about it anyway. One is not bound by an Oath somone else made.
Only by Oaths one makes themself. ( so why be depressed? they never
swore to the Way, their really distant ancestors did) So in other
words....why in heck do they give a snot who swore what 100's of years
ago?
Arlia Jalyn Aman'Dar
dajibhun's News
Because if the tinkers where Aiel,
then it means that the Aiel will have to become the tinkers
and that will mean they will loose every thing they belive in.
Since the Wheel repeats, the Aiel will become Tinkers,
and somehting very bad/good will have to happen for them to convert.
This means that they will break thier oath/belife system
and the Aiel place a high value on it.
S
p
o
i
l
e
r
(They felt that the bretral when Rand was kidnaped was far worse then the
tourture)
P.S I belive that Aiel have the Song the Tinkers are looking for.
Bhunesh
James
<Arlia...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:24732-37...@newsd-282.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
They 'give a snot' as you put it because they live by ji'eh'toh. Honor
and Obligation. Their ancestors swore themselves and ALL future generations
of Aiel to the Way of the Leaf. They feel that since they were sworn to the
Way, even if they didn't know about it, then they are living dishonorably by
being warriors.
I don't believe, however, that all Aiel are going to end up following
the Way. The prophecy of Rhuidean says 'A remenant of a remnant will be
saved.' At the time this prophecy was first spoken (I can't remember which
at the moment) either all Aiel still followed the Way, or there were still
Jenn Aiel (true Aiel) around. I think that the remnant will be of the
Jenn, who knows what will happen to the others.
IceDance
ceos
>
> P.S I belive that Aiel have the Song the Tinkers are looking for.
> Bhunesh
>
>
Can you explain that please?
Since the Tinkers have been looking for the song from the start, the Aiel
didn't know it then and how would they have learned it since then ?
CEOS
hoshekdarr's News
breaking.
And also remember that when the wheel turns arund again to the AoL the
daishan will need to follow the way of the leaf again........
dajibhun's News
The Aiel are the Tinkers and the Tinkers are the Aiel
Time is cycleick (goes round in circles)
So the song could be know by the Aiel, and when they become the Tinkers they
may have lost that song (may be soming to do with killing, tinkers dont like
violence) and thats why only the Aiel know of it.
James
dajibhun's News <daji...@scs.vuw.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:93676335...@totara.its.vuw.ac.nz...
they don't sing anything other than war chants and funeral dirges. I think
this was said in the books..but it's possible that I'm remembering a society
from another series alltogether. .*sigh*.
James
Scott Wyngarden
>> >> Bhunesh
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >Can you explain that please?
>> >
>> >Since the Tinkers have been looking for the song from the start, the Aiel
>> >didn't know it then and how would they have learned it since then ?
>> >
>> >CEOS
>>
>>
>>
>> The Aiel are the Tinkers and the Tinkers are the Aiel
>> Time is cycleick (goes round in circles)
>> So the song could be know by the Aiel, and when they become the Tinkers
>they
>> may have lost that song (may be soming to do with killing, tinkers dont
>like
>> violence) and thats why only the Aiel know of it.
>>
>>
> The main problem I have with the Aiel knowing the song, is the fact that
>they don't sing anything other than war chants and funeral dirges. I think
>this was said in the books..but it's possible that I'm remembering a society
>from another series alltogether. .*sigh*.
I remember that as well, but I can't find it. . .I think that it is somewhere
in TSR, but on a quick perusal I can't find the quote (maybe its where avi is
teaching rand about aiel culture, or when rand comes back from rhuidean.
Scott Wyngarden
Duncan J. Macdonald
<snip Aiel don't know the Song>
> I remember that as well, but I can't find it. . .I think that it is somewhere
> in TSR, but on a quick perusal I can't find the quote (maybe its where avi is
> teaching rand about aiel culture, or when rand comes back from rhuidean.
One location is in tFoH, during Mat's _oosquai_ drinking, dagger
throwing scene:
"Some of Kadere's men joined in the song as he [Mat] Danced back to
where he had begun. The Aiel did not; among them, men did not sing
except for battle chants or laments for the slain, and neither did
Maidens, except among themselves." <tFoH, 3, _Pale Shadows_, pg 80>
Duncan
--
Duncan J Macdonald -- dmacd...@cybernet.it
"Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean that they're not out to
get you."
Arlia...@webtv.net
sing all they like. there you go.
Arlia Jalyn
dajibhun's News
>they don't sing anything other than war chants and funeral dirges. I think
>this was said in the books..but it's possible that I'm remembering a
society
>from another series alltogether. .*sigh*.
>
>
Whos to say that the Tinkers Song is not a War Song?
So that once they find it, it may help the precess of restoreing them to the
Aiel
that they once where.
If it is a war Song, it could expain why the Tinkers have not found it, they
may not want to find it
Karim Arain
A War Song? That would indeed be quite an ironic turn of things if a
former song for growing crops develops into a War Song :-)
But the bit about "restoring them to the Aiel they once were"? A War
Song? When the Tinkers split off from the Aiel the Aiel were still a
people following the Way of the Leaf! The only "wrong" that the
Tinkers did was that they gave up their assigned duty (helping to find
a place of safety for the 'angreal) and started to moon over old times
(hence the wish to find the Song again). Come to think of it, that
might not have been so a great a wrong after all as I got the
impression the Aes Sedai just gave the Aiel the task of carrying the
'angreal away to give them some purpose and get them out of harm's
way. Although there might have been some prophecy or other involved...
Ciao. Karim
---------------------------------------
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you.
ceos
<Arlia...@webtv.net> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:28956-37...@newsd-282.iap.bryant.webtv.ne
t...
> Aiel men, and Warriors, do not sing. Aiel Women who are not Maidens Can
> sing all they like. there you go.
>
> Arlia Jalyn
>
Yes, but if the female Aiel would sing THAT song it's really ironic, since
the men were singing it in tAoL.
One thing thats sticks out in all your theories is that the Song is a song
of words. I personally don't think so, I think its a pure melody sung with a
purpose. Sorry, I can't formulate it any better than that. Anyway, that way
the song can have been remembered, but now there are words in it. (Wouldn't
it be fun if it was Jack o' the Shadows).
CEOS
Dale Sims
<ashamanofth...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>The main problem I have with the Aiel knowing the song, is the fact that
>they don't sing anything other than war chants and funeral dirges. I think
>this was said in the books..but it's possible that I'm remembering a society
>from another series alltogether. .*sigh*.
True they don't sing. But some of the Aiel do know the song, and
further we (the readers) know this.
When Rand went to Rhuidean he heard the song of the Aiel while going
through the history of the Aiel before the time of the Breaking. We
know from Rhuarc that every man who goes to Rhuidean sees the same
history that occurred before the "sharing of water" by the Cairhien.
In the same history, between these two events we see the "Tinkers"
break off and their search for the Aiel songs of planting and growing.
Of course while the Ogier are still available the last known Nym is no
more so the song can not bring back the old times. (I have often
wondered about the tree singing that Loial did after Someshta died.
Specifically, whether that particular tree might in some way generate
another Nym at some future point in time.) So apparently the song
will not serve the purpose they were seeking it for.
We don't know exactly what the Wise Ones see in their second visit to
Rhuidean but it seems probable that they also have knowledge of the
song.
Dale Sims
ceos
Dale Sims <ds...@ix.netcom.com> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:PP7aN2kGOd2EtZ...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:34:29 -0700, "James"
> <ashamanofth...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >The main problem I have with the Aiel knowing the song, is the fact that
> >they don't sing anything other than war chants and funeral dirges. I
think
> >this was said in the books..but it's possible that I'm remembering a
society
> >from another series alltogether. .*sigh*.
>
> True they don't sing. But some of the Aiel do know the song, and
> further we (the readers) know this.
>
> When Rand went to Rhuidean he heard the song of the Aiel while going
> through the history of the Aiel before the time of the Breaking. We
> know from Rhuarc that every man who goes to Rhuidean sees the same
> history that occurred before the "sharing of water" by the Cairhien.
> In the same history, between these two events we see the "Tinkers"
> break off and their search for the Aiel songs of planting and growing.
>
>
> Of course while the Ogier are still available the last known Nym is no
> more so the song can not bring back the old times. (I have often
> wondered about the tree singing that Loial did after Someshta died.
> Specifically, whether that particular tree might in some way generate
> another Nym at some future point in time.) So apparently the song
> will not serve the purpose they were seeking it for.
I have a dim memory of reding that the nym's are a man made species, and if
I'm correct some chanelers have to create some new ones.
CEOS
Gerhard W. Gruber
> Moonfall says (not exact quote) "Am I the only one who hopes the Aiel
> dont end up following the Way of the Leaf?"
>
> No you are not. I liked the Aiel better before they found out they used
> to be peaceful and got all depressed about it. Of course I think they
> are silly about it anyway. One is not bound by an Oath somone else made.
> Only by Oaths one makes themself. ( so why be depressed? they never
> swore to the Way, their really distant ancestors did) So in other
> words....why in heck do they give a snot who swore what 100's of years
> ago?
Because their belive system is build upon strength, hardship and war.
When they realize they are Tinkers by their ancestry, this means that
they are coming from the same stock they despise (Tinkers are not well
reputed by Aiel, remeber?) and moreover that their believe system has
been originally a total contradiction to what they now believe in. I
think this is like fervently believing in a god and suddenly realizing
there is nothing there you could believe in. You realize that your whole
life has been devoted to nothing. I guess they have to find a new
believe to fill up the "bleakness" with.
--
bye,
Gerhard
email: spar...@eunet.at
g.gr...@xsoft.co.at
Kathie
>
> >
> > P.S I belive that Aiel have the Song the Tinkers are looking for.
> > Bhunesh
> >
> >
>
> Can you explain that please?
>
> Since the Tinkers have been looking for the song from the start, the Aiel
> didn't know it then and how would they have learned it since then ?
>
The Aiel Cheiftains live their entire family history when they go
through the columns. It would stand to reason that they would hear the
songs there, so the Aiel Cheitains most likely do have the song.
Kathie
ceos
Kathie <johnn...@earthlink.net> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:37E06A...@earthlink.net...
Actually, I think Rand does (hear the song).
CEOS
Pointer
>
> ceos wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > P.S I belive that Aiel have the Song the Tinkers are looking for.
> > > Bhunesh
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Can you explain that please?
> >
> > Since the Tinkers have been looking for the song from the start, the Aiel
> > didn't know it then and how would they have learned it since then ?
> >
>
> The Aiel Cheiftains live their entire family history when they go
> through the columns. It would stand to reason that they would hear the
> songs there, so the Aiel Cheitains most likely do have the song.
>
the Tinkers. Only Rand's vision went all the way back to the AoL.
Only Rand can give the Tinkers the Song.
Pointer.
Mozingo
Somebody (Kathie, ceos or perhaps Bhunesh ) wrote:
>>The Aiel Cheiftains live their entire family history when
>>they go through the columns. It would stand to reason
>>that they would hear the songs there, so the Aiel
>>Cheitains most likely do have the song.
Pointer stated:
>No, the Aiel Chiefs only se back as far as the where they
>split with the Tinkers. Only Rand's vision went all the
way
>back to the AoL. Only Rand can give the Tinkers the Song.
In _The Shadow Rising_ Chapter 34 (He Who Comes with the
Dawn, page 389 hardback) Rhuarc tells Rand "No two clan
chiefs I have spoken with have seen through the exactly same
eyes, Rand, or exactly the same things, until the sharing of
the water, and the meeting where the Agreement of Rhuidean
was made"..."I believe I saw through the eyes of my
ancestors, and you yours."
This sounds to me as if the chiefs saw all the way back to
the AoL...presuming they had ancestor back then and how
would they exist now if they didn't?? Granted, their
ancestors might not have witnessed any singings of the Song
(although it seems as though the Song was quite well known
back then...how could they miss it?), but that doesn't mean
that they didn't exist.
Also Chapter 57 (A Breaking in the Three-Fold Land, page
666 hardback) Rand is describing what he saw in the columns
in Rhuidean to the Aiel masses: "I saw the Age of
Legends...and the beginning of the Aiel journey to the
Three-fold Land. I saw the Aiel when they were called the
Da'shain Aiel, and followed the way of the Leaf." All the
while Rhuarc is trying to stop him from revealing all. In
the end all the clan chiefs present acknowledge him as the
Car'a'carn. They must have been able to verify ALL his
story, including that about the Da'shain Aiel [the Aiel name
in the AoL (around page 300)]. If his story was off by one
iota I don't think they would have stood for him.
Therefore it seems as though the clan chiefs (and maybe the
Wise Ones too) could theoretically collaborate all their
renditions of the past and come up with the Song. I didn't
read anything that said only Rand saw back to the
AoL....perhaps I am missing something. If so, please fill
me in.
--
R Mozingo
Arj
> No, the Aiel Chiefs only see back as far as where they split with
> the Tinkers. Only Rands' vision went all the way back to the AoL.
> Only Rand can give the Tinkers the Song.
Where does this information come from? I don't recall seeing it
anywhere.
Arj
Michelle Haines
On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, Pointer wrote:
> No, the Aiel Chiefs only se back as far as the where they split with
> the Tinkers. Only Rand's vision went all the way back to the AoL.
> Only Rand can give the Tinkers the Song.
Cite that. I didn't get that impression at all.
Michelle
Flutist
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Kathie
>
> Pointer wrote:
>
> > No, the Aiel Chiefs only see back as far as where they split with
> > the Tinkers. Only Rands' vision went all the way back to the AoL.
> > Only Rand can give the Tinkers the Song.
>
> anywhere.
I don't remember this either
Kathie