[TAN] A Poll - before I actually die of boredom
Leigh Butler
No, that's not the poll, just a small pout from moi.
Here's the poll:
(It's not really a poll, but I call it a poll because I'm not sure
what else to call it. Also, I've written the word "poll" so many times
that it has ceased to make the slightest amount of sense, and I'm kind
of enjoying the sensation.)
(Poll! Poll!)
Now, really, the poll:
I want to know what youse guys think it takes for a person to be
well-rounded culturally. And by "culturally" I mean specifically in
the area of arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
So:
Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
the following categories that you think one MUST
see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
person:
Books
Art
Music
Film
(Yes, I know it will kill some of you to only name five of some of
these, but I want to force you to be selective.)
This poll brought to you by the letter P and O and L and L. Cause I
said so, that's why.
--
Leigh Butler leigh_...@paramount.com
******************************************************
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those
of Paramount Pictures or its affiliates.
Paul Evans
Books Robert Burns
Art 'Guernica' by Pablo Picasso
Music 'Claire de Lune' (spelling) by Debussy
'Dark Side of the Moon' by Pink Floyd
Film Raging Bull
Pulp Fiction
Luv, Paul
Going to Church doesn't make you a Christian
any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.
Darrell
> Books - Don Quixote (Cervantes)
- Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire (Gibbon)
- Snow Crash (Stephenson)
- Divine Comedy (Dante)
- All Quient on the Western Front (Remarque)
> Art - David (Michelangelo)
- Sistine Chapel (Michelangelo
- The Bullfighter (Dali)
- Last Supper (da Vinci)
- Taj Mahal (some dude from Persia)
> Music - Beethoven's 6th
- Beethoven's 9th
- Bach's Goldberg Variations
- Welcome to the Terrordome (Public Enemy)
- Anything by Louis Armstrong
> Film - Gone with the Wind
- Casablanca
- It's a Wonderful Life
- Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind
- Pulp Fiction
Darrell
Ralf Flicker
[poll troll]
> I want to know what youse guys think it takes for a person to be
> well-rounded culturally. And by "culturally" I mean specifically in
> the area of arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
>
> So:
>
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
Well, I'm disqualified right there since I don't think there's
anything one MUST have experienced to be called a culturally
educated person.
> Books
> Art
> Music
> Film
>
> (Yes, I know it will kill some of you to only name five of some of
> these, but I want to force you to be selective.)
Like I said, I can think of some recommendations, but not a
single must. Oh darn. But I'll watch this thread with interest
:)
ralf
P. Korda
I, for one, am trying to graduate, and am therefore, or necessity,
avoiding Usenet. But, I am sick today, so you're in luck.
>Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
>the following categories that you think one MUST
>see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
>person:
>
>Books
>Art
>Music
>Film
This may be contrary to your intention, but I don't think there are
any specific books/art/music/film that one _must_ have read/seen/heard
in order to be "culturally educated." It's not so easy as that. I
could make a list of 20 important works, but being familiar with those
and only those wouldn't make anybody culturally literate, and it would
be entirely possible for me to consider somebody who doesn't conform
to my list to be culturally literate.
Rather, it's a cumulative effect. For example, I'd say that a
culurally educated person should be familiar with some of
Shakespeare's works, but which specific ones she's read or seen
matters less. If you've studied _King Lear_ and _Macbeth_, but never
got around to _Hamlet_, I would not say that you are culturally
illiterate.
Also, it is important to define what culture you're talking
about. There's a different (and much larger) list for education in
Western Civilization than for American Pop Culture, 1980-present, or
for "geek culture." (List one would contain Locke's _Two Treatises of
Government_, #2 would contain the lifetime works of Madonna, and
#3 would contain _Soylent Green_.)
But, in the interest of not being snarky, here is a list of things
which one ought to be familiar with if one wants to be considered
Culturally Literate for a value of Culture somewhere between "Western
Civilization" and "Modern America." I'll also skew things towards the
artistic side.
Books (This is extremely difficult, because there's like, 3000 years
of books to choose from. Of necessity, this will be skewed towards
really old stuff, because the old stuff has permeated everything
else.): The Bible, Shakespeare, Greek Mythology, Aristotle's
_Poetics_, and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories.
Art (Again, way too many centuries of stuff to choose from. Also hard
because I'm not really well-educated in art history.): The Mona Lisa,
Michelangelo, Van Gogh, Andy Warhol, Picasso.
Music (Also not well-educated in music history, but at least we only
have a few hundred years of well-definied musical pieces.): Mozart,
Beethoven, Bach, Robert Johnson, the Beatles.
Film (Whoo, only about a hundred years to choose from. But, I am even
less educated in film history than in music or art.): Casablanca, Gone
with the Wind, Citizen Kane, Star Wars, and probably some old Carlie
Chaplin or Buster Keaton or something.
--
Pam Korda
kor2 @ midway.uchicago.edu
Home Page: http://home.uchicago.edu/~kor2/
Book Log: http://home.uchicago.edu/~kor2/booklog/
Scott Spiegelberg
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
>
> Books
> Art
> Music
> Film
I'll start with my expertise: Beethoven's 9th symphony, Coltrane's "Giant
Steps," Wagner's Ring Cycle, The Beach Boys "Pet Sounds," and your pick of
over a millenium of known music. Baby's acting up, I'll have to wait with
the other groups.
--
Scott Spiegelberg, Ph.D
"There are two sides to a trumpet player's personality. There is the one
that lives only to lay waste to woodwinds, strings, horns, percussionists,
and trombones, leaving them lying blue and lifeless along the swath of
destruction that is the trumpet's fury. Then there is the dark side..."
Jeff Dougan
[snip]
> Now, really, the poll:
>
> I want to know what youse guys think it takes for a person to be
well-rounded
> culturally. And by "culturally" I mean specifically in the area of
> arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
>
> So:
>
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of the
> following categories that you think one MUST see/read/hear/whatever
> in order to be called a culturally educated person:
>
> Books
I vote for:
- "A Witness for the Prosecution", Agatha Christie
- "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland" -and- "Through the Looking Glass
and What Alice Found There", Lewis Carroll. (These are so often printed
together that I am counting them as one choice)
- "The Art of War" Sun Tzu
- An overall familiarity with the collected works of Wm. Shakespeare. (I
second the notion that, in this category, the specific titles are
irrelevant. However, to pick one each of Comedies, Tragedies, and
Histories, I nominate Midsummer Night's Dream, the Scottish play, and
Henry V, respectively).
- "Around the World in Eighty Days", Jules Verne
> Art
It's harder for me to vote here, as I'm not much of an art person. But,
I'll take:
- Basic exposure to the art of ancient Egypt
- "Liberty Leading the People", Delacroix
- "The Thinker", Rodin
- "La Giocanda", Leonardo da Vinci
- "The Persistence of Memory", Salvador Dali
> Music
Not as much of an expert as Scott, but my votes:
- exposure to medieval polyphony, probably in the form of Gregorian chant
- J.S. Bach, choose from "Musical Offering" or "The Well-Tempered Clavier"
- W.A. Mozart, "Die Zauberflote" (pardon me for omitting the umlaut)
- M. Mussorgsky, "Pictures at an Exhibition" for solo piano. (I strongly
dislike any of the orchestrations - despise is too strong a word, but
not by much)
- "Sing, Sing, Sing", as recorded by Benny Goodman at Carnegie Hall
> Film
- The Maltese Falcon
- The Sting
- Arsenic and Old Lace
- The movie about the boat that sank. (I put this here only because of
how it has seeped into pop culture - I personally detest it to the point
of not actually using the name.)
- (there comes here an extended pause while I consider several options
for the last slot)
- Glory
That's my story, and I'll stick to it.
JD
Erica Sadun
(Leigh Butler) wrote:
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
>
> Books
Winnie the Pooh.
Curious George.
Madeline.
Where the Wild Things Are.
Harold and the Purple Crayon.
> Art
Art? Blech.
> Music
Peter & The Wolf
Tubby the Tuba
Saint-Sean's Carnival
Everything Mozart & Bach
The Wiggles Opus
> Film
Pollyanna
The Trouble with Angels
Mary Poppins
The Music Man
Willy Wonka & The Chocolate Factory.
-- Erica
--
www.ericasadun.com er...@mindspring.com
iMovie Solutions from Sybex Books. In Stores Now.
Grep Foo whilst ye may, Oh Daemons of the Spring...
Erica Sadun
<Pine.SGI.4.21.0206281...@theory.esm.rochester.edu>,
Scott Spiegelberg <spi...@theory.esm.rochester.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Leigh Butler wrote:
>
> > Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> > the following categories that you think one MUST
> > see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> > person:
> >
> > Books
> > Art
> > Music
> > Film
>
> I'll start with my expertise: Beethoven's 9th symphony, Coltrane's "Giant
> Steps," Wagner's Ring Cycle, The Beach Boys "Pet Sounds," and your pick of
> over a millenium of known music. Baby's acting up, I'll have to wait with
> the other groups.
Beethoven's 9th?
Erk.
I much prefer 5th, 6th or Moonlight.
Jamie Bowden
> Where have all the rasfwrj-ers gone?
To join the Creator of course, silly little girl.
> No, that's not the poll, just a small pout from moi.
> Now, really, the poll:
>
> I want to know what youse guys think it takes for a person to be
> well-rounded culturally. And by "culturally" I mean specifically in
> the area of arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
I'm shocked! Shocked I say, shocked!
> So:
>
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
>
> Books
> Art
> Music
> Film
Others have already quantified this to some degree, but what the fuck,
here's some stuff anyway.
Books:
Collected works of E. A. Poe.
The Norton Anthology of English Literature (yes, every college freshman
gets this their second semester, but it's a good solid collection spanning
a large and diverse body of stuff from England).
Wm. Gibson: the Sprawl series (Neuromancer, Count Zero, Mona Lisa
Overdrive, and the relevant stories from the Burning Chrome anthology of
his short stories).
Shakespear: Pick your poison, but at least 4 plays and some sonnets and
various other poetry.
John Steinbeck: The Grapes of Wrath (I found it to be a very moving
portrayal of depression era farmers and their plight).
Art:
Monet, various works.
Picasso, various works.
Michaelangelo, various works.
Van Gogh, various works.
Renoir, various works. (can you tell my art education was heavily skewed
towards classical painters?)
Music:
Punk rock.
Industrial.
Mozart, various stuff (though I like Eine Kleine Nachtmusik in particular,
sure everyone's heard it, but there's a very good reason for that).
Beethoven, various works (I like the Hammerklavier Sonata in particular,
hell you might as well go with all the classical Vienna composers).
Jimmy Buffet, various (sometimes, music just has to be fun damnit).
Movies:
The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eigth Dimension
The Wizard of Oz
Gardens of Stone
Gone with the Wind
My Fair Lady
Jamie Bowden
--
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
Iain Bowen <ala...@alaric.org.uk>
David Chapman
> Where have all the rasfwrj-ers gone?
Long time passing...
> (It's not really a poll, but I call it a poll because I'm not sure
> what else to call it. Also, I've written the word "poll" so many times
> that it has ceased to make the slightest amount of sense, and I'm kind
> of enjoying the sensation.)
>
> (Poll! Poll!)
>
> Now, really, the poll:
>
> I want to know what youse guys think it takes for a person to be
> well-rounded culturally. And by "culturally" I mean specifically in
> the area of arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
>
> So:
>
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
> (Yes, I know it will kill some of you to only name five of some of
> these, but I want to force you to be selective.)
And in the process, have completely invalidated an otherwise
interesting idea for a poll. There are no five books, or pieces of
art, or films, that even come remotely close to scratching the
surface of well-rounded cultural appreciation.
I *can* say that anybody who thinks you can sum up any branch
of culture in one to five items is uncultured by definition, though.
Is that what you were looking for?
--
"Pack it in, you're acting like kids."
"Well, he started it!"
David Chapman
> In article
> <Pine.SGI.4.21.0206281...@theory.esm.rochester.edu>,
> Scott Spiegelberg <spi...@theory.esm.rochester.edu> wrote:
>> I'll start with my expertise: Beethoven's 9th symphony, Coltrane's
>> "Giant Steps," Wagner's Ring Cycle, The Beach Boys "Pet Sounds," and
>> your pick of over a millenium of known music. Baby's acting up,
>> I'll have to wait with the other groups.
>
> Beethoven's 9th?
>
> Erk.
What've you got against the Ode to Joy? I prefer Saint-Saens
and Gershwin myself, but Beethoven's best symphony was the
Ninth.
Sean O'Hara
>
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
>
> Books
"The Prince" by Machiavelli
"Second Treatise" by John Locke
"Heart of Darkness" by Joseph Conrad
"Foucault's Pendulum" by Umberto Eco
Anything by Pratchett.
> Art
I'll just name some artists whose works should be seen:
Botticelli
Waterhouse
Rousseau
Mondrian
> Music
"A German Requiem" by Brahms
Any album of Charlie "Bird" Parker
Any album of Miles Davis
"Carmina Burana" by Orff
"The Velvet Underground and Nico" by The Velvet Underground
> Film
>
"A Face in the Crowd" directed by Elia Kazan, starring Andy Griffith
"The Trial" directed by Orson Welles, starring Anthony Perkins
"Beautiful Creatures" directed by Peter Jackson, starring Kate
Winslet
"12 Monkeys" directed by Terry Gilliam, starring Bruce Willis (or
anything else by Gilliam)
--
Sean O辿ara
"Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original
Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist."
-- http://www.vineyard.net/vineyard/history/pledge.htm
John Johnson
leigh_...@paramount.com says...
> I want to know what youse guys think it takes for a person to be
> well-rounded culturally. And by "culturally" I mean specifically in
> the area of arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
I think it's very interesting the variety in the responses so far, and
I'm not sure that I can give you an answer. Personally, I think that you
can't quantify cultured, and I don't think that you should. For me there
are too many negative connotations associated with that word, and I try
not to use it.
However, I will say that I believe a person should be well-rounded. I
had a teacher who once said "If you haven't tasted all the flavors of
ice cream, how can you know which one is your favorite?" He was speaking
it in the context of dating, but hey, we can use it for just about
anything. As long as your interests are expanding, and you're willing to
try new material, I think that you're plenty cultured.
> So:
>
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
Rather than make my own lists, I thought I'd share the lists that others
have made. (Recombine if necessary.)
> Books
http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,711520,00.html
http://www.co.washtenaw.mi.us/DEPTS/LIB/lbpd/service/advisory/hundred.sh
tm
http://www.cnn.com/books/news/9807/22/radcliffe.list/list.html
> Art
http://www.scaruffi.com/art/greatest.html
> Music
http://www.mygradnet.com/Music/100_greatest_songs.htm (Rock)
> Film
http://www.utexas.edu/students/jackie/movies/
http://www.publicdoman.com/100Greatest.html
I don't necessarily agree with every item on each of these lists (in
some cases I don't have enough knowledge to *have* an opionion), but at
least it's a starting point.
--
John Johnson
"A cry in the dark . . ."
http://johnajohnson.diaryland.com
P. Korda
Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>> Books
>
>"The Prince" by Machiavelli
>"Second Treatise" by John Locke
>"Heart of Darkness" by Joseph Conrad
>"Foucault's Pendulum" by Umberto Eco
>Anything by Pratchett.
I'll give you the Machiavelli & Locke, and even the Conrad, but how do
you manage to qualify Terry Pratchett as "required for cultural
literacy." (Guess: "culture" = British pop culture)
>> Film
>>
>"A Face in the Crowd" directed by Elia Kazan, starring Andy Griffith
>"The Trial" directed by Orson Welles, starring Anthony Perkins
>"Beautiful Creatures" directed by Peter Jackson, starring Kate
> Winslet
>"12 Monkeys" directed by Terry Gilliam, starring Bruce Willis (or
> anything else by Gilliam)
Ugh. If _Beautiful Creatures_ is required for cultural literacy, I'd
rather have remained illiterate.
Leigh Butler
wrote:
>>Where have all the rasfwrj-ers gone?
>
>I, for one, am trying to graduate, and am therefore, or necessity,
>avoiding Usenet. But, I am sick today, so you're in luck.
*grin*
I feel so priviledged...
>>Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
>>the following categories that you think one MUST
>>see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
>>person:
>>
>>Books
>>Art
>>Music
>>Film
>
>This may be contrary to your intention, but I don't think there are
>any specific books/art/music/film that one _must_ have read/seen/heard
>in order to be "culturally educated." It's not so easy as that. I
>could make a list of 20 important works, but being familiar with those
>and only those wouldn't make anybody culturally literate, and it would
>be entirely possible for me to consider somebody who doesn't conform
>to my list to be culturally literate.
Oh, absolutely. The reason I ask, though, is because I knew that the
answers were likely to vary wildly from person to person, and that's
what I am interested in - I know what _I_ consider to be essential
works in books and film and so forth, but I've hardly read/seen
everything out there. So this way I get to see what I might be
missing, maybe stuff I should seek out.
<snip>
>Also, it is important to define what culture you're talking
>about. There's a different (and much larger) list for education in
>Western Civilization than for American Pop Culture, 1980-present, or
>for "geek culture." (List one would contain Locke's _Two Treatises of
>Government_, #2 would contain the lifetime works of Madonna, and
>#3 would contain _Soylent Green_.)
True. I left it very vague. I think, though, that probably what I was
referring to is #1, Western Civilization at large (mainly because I'm
much more familiar with the other two).
<rest snipped, I'm storing 'em all up>
Leigh Butler
wrote:
>In article <3d1caef6...@news.cis.dfn.de>, leigh_...@paramount.com
>(Leigh Butler) wrote:
>
>> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
>> the following categories that you think one MUST
>> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
>> person:
>>
>> Books
>
>Winnie the Pooh.
>Curious George.
>Madeline.
>Where the Wild Things Are.
>Harold and the Purple Crayon.
<and so forth>
Heh.
I sense you're in a certain place, right about now...
Leigh Butler
<evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
>The following message was found tattooed on Leigh Butler's buttocks:
>> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
>> the following categories that you think one MUST
>> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
>> person:
>
>> (Yes, I know it will kill some of you to only name five of some of
>> these, but I want to force you to be selective.)
>
>And in the process, have completely invalidated an otherwise
>interesting idea for a poll.
In your opinion. In any case, it's my poll and I'll conduct it like I
want to. If you don't like it start your own.
>There are no five books, or pieces of
>art, or films, that even come remotely close to scratching the
>surface of well-rounded cultural appreciation.
What I was asking was, in the pantheon of cultural experiences out
there, which five in each of these categories would you personally put
the highest emphasis on?
Since I was obviously anticipating that people's answers would be
different from both mine and from other people's, the whole point of
my poll was based on this very (screamingly obvious) observation you
make above.
>I *can* say that anybody who thinks you can sum up any branch
>of culture in one to five items is uncultured by definition, though.
>Is that what you were looking for?
I was looking for something to stimulate conversation on a lately
sluggish forum.
I was looking for suggestions on things to read/watch/listen to/look
at that might further expand my horizons.
You, obviously, are looking to start a fight. Too bad. I have better
things to do.
Pat O'Connell
>
> Where have all the rasfwrj-ers gone?
>
> No, that's not the poll, just a small pout from moi.
>
> Here's the poll:
>
> (It's not really a poll, but I call it a poll because I'm not sure
> what else to call it. Also, I've written the word "poll" so many times
> that it has ceased to make the slightest amount of sense, and I'm kind
> of enjoying the sensation.)
>
> (Poll! Poll!)
>
> Now, really, the poll:
>
> I want to know what youse guys think it takes for a person to be
> well-rounded culturally. And by "culturally" I mean specifically in
> the area of arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
>
> So:
>
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
>
> Books
The Three Musketeers
Tom Sawyer
Huckleberry Finn
The Lord of the Rings (well, that's three books, but who's counting)
(can we tell I'm into escapism, not Serious Literature?)
> Art
Art is in the eye of the beholder. I personnally like anything by Van
Gogh, Tolouse-Lautrec, Warhol, and what I've seen of Rembrandt.
> Music
I'll say anything by Flatt and Scruggs, The Beatles, The Who (The Ox
has left the building), Beethoven, and Bach.
> Film
Casablanca, 2001, The Princess Bride, Young Frankenstein, and Star
Wars--A New Hope.
--
Pat O'Connell
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...
Mike Kozlowski
>Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
>the following categories that you think one MUST
>see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
>person:
I maintain there's nothing. Absolutely nothing. You could get away
without having read any particular work, and still be culturally educated.
I've never read the Bible, The Odyssey, The Republic, any Aristotle, St.
Augustine, Marlowe, Spenser, King Lear, The Decameron, Moby Dick, Locke,
Kant, or Machiavelli; I've never seen Casablance, Gone With The Wind,
Citizen Kane, or Psycho.
There are lots of works that I think are important, and lots that I think
it's probably good to have read/seen -- but you can almost always pick up
the gist of things from secondary sources, so you don't need the real
thing. I mean, if I didn't tell you that I'd never read/seen those
things, you'd probably not know it, because I can talk about them
semi-knowledgeably just from having picked things up here and there.
--
Mike Kozlowski
http://www.klio.org/mlk/
Kenneth G. Cavness
Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com>
confessed...
> Leigh Butler wrote:
> >
> > Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> > the following categories that you think one MUST
> > see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> > person:
> >
> > Books
>
> "The Prince" by Machiavelli
Totally.
> "Second Treatise" by John Locke
> "Heart of Darkness" by Joseph Conrad
...if only to discover how bad a really good book can be.
[snip]
> > Film
> >
> "A Face in the Crowd" directed by Elia Kazan, starring Andy Griffith
> "The Trial" directed by Orson Welles, starring Anthony Perkins
Why "The Trial", as opposed to "Citizen Kane"? What makes this a more
culturally educating movie than the other?
> "Beautiful Creatures" directed by Peter Jackson, starring Kate
> Winslet
Yes.
> "12 Monkeys" directed by Terry Gilliam, starring Bruce Willis (or
> anything else by Gilliam)
Yes to "12 Monkeys", "Brazil", or "The Fisher King", no to the horrible
Las Vegas one.
--
Kenneth G. Cavness
ke...@cavness.org
http://www.cavness.org/
Dave Crisp
<darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> waxed long:
>
> "The Prince" by Machiavelli
You do not know Machiavelli, who only The Prince have read.
If you want to know what he *really* thought (he was actually a firm
believer in the Republic), you also need to read his "Discourses on the
first decade of Livvy".
(Still working on my choices, BTW)
--
----- Dave ----- da...@goldeneyes.org.uk ----- ICQ:119128417 -----
'There exists a secret society with branches throughout the world,
and its plot is to spread the rumor that a Universal Plot exists'
- Umberto Eco, 'Foucault's Pendulum'
David Chapman
> In article <3D1CF411...@myrealbox.com>,
> Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>>> Books
>>
>> "The Prince" by Machiavelli
>> "Second Treatise" by John Locke
>> "Heart of Darkness" by Joseph Conrad
>> "Foucault's Pendulum" by Umberto Eco
>> Anything by Pratchett.
>
> I'll give you the Machiavelli & Locke, and even the Conrad, but how do
> you manage to qualify Terry Pratchett as "required for cultural
> literacy." (Guess: "culture" = British pop culture)
Or, because Pratchett's Discworld novels are a warped mirror
of our world. Nobody without a fair modicum of culture is ever
going to get all the references.
David Chapman
> On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 00:28:10 +0100, "David Chapman"
> <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
>> The following message was found tattooed on Leigh Butler's buttocks:
>
>>> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
>>> the following categories that you think one MUST
>>> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
>>> person:
>>
>>> (Yes, I know it will kill some of you to only name five of some of
>>> these, but I want to force you to be selective.)
>>
>> And in the process, have completely invalidated an otherwise
>> interesting idea for a poll.
>
> In your opinion. In any case, it's my poll and I'll conduct it like I
> want to. If you don't like it start your own.
Jawohl, mein Butler! <grin>
>
>> There are no five books, or pieces of
>> art, or films, that even come remotely close to scratching the
>> surface of well-rounded cultural appreciation.
>
> What I was asking was, in the pantheon of cultural experiences out
> there, which five in each of these categories would you personally put
> the highest emphasis on?
And once again, it cannot be done. I can't narrow music down to
as little as twenty-five. Here's my current "short" list:
The Well-Tempered Clavier
The Brandenburg Concertos
Ode to Joy
Pictures at an Exhibition
Parsifal
Rhapsody in Blue
The Planets Suite
Faure's Requiem
Dies Irae
Carmina Burrana
Anything by Palestrina
Who's Better, Who's Best
Bringing It All Back Home
Dark Side of the Moon
Their Satanic Majesties Request
Sad Wings of Destiny
The Healer
Rumours
One Of These Nights
Songs in the Key of Life
London Calling
Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
A Kind of Magic
P:NYC
Mezzanine
It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back
Leftism
U F Orb
I can't chop anything more from that list and not sell something
short. I'm already omitting great albums and great artists to
achieve this much..
>
> Since I was obviously anticipating that people's answers would be
> different from both mine and from other people's, the whole point of
> my poll was based on this very (screamingly obvious) observation you
> make above.
>
It really is not "screamingly obvious" except to you.
>> I *can* say that anybody who thinks you can sum up any branch
>> of culture in one to five items is uncultured by definition, though.
>> Is that what you were looking for?
>
> I was looking for something to stimulate conversation on a lately
> sluggish forum.
>
> I was looking for suggestions on things to read/watch/listen to/look
> at that might further expand my horizons.
Then ask for that, not for an overly narrow definition of what you
must do in order to fit a positive label.
>
> You, obviously, are looking to start a fight. Too bad. I have better
> things to do.
Like posting polls that will almost *guarantee* a fight? We've
already had the first "How the hell can you say <foo> is culture?"
post. How long do you think it'll be before the first "So you're
saying I'm not cultured because I don't like/haven't heard <foo>"
post?
Jennifer Winters
news:3d1caef6...@news.cis.dfn.de...
<snip>
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
BTW, thank you for giving me the opportunity to think about this. *smile*
> Books
The Sherlock Holmes Mysteries by Doyle
The Collected Works of H. G. Wells
The Collected Works of Edgar Allen Poe
_1984_ by George Orwell
One good non-fiction work on Greco-Roman mythology
> Art
One work of your choice by Michaelangelo
One work of your choice by Van Gogh
The _Mona Lisa_ by Da Vinci
One work of your choice by Giotto
One work of your choice by Degas
> Music
One opera of your choice by Mozart
One opera of your choice by Verdi
One opera of your choice by Wagner
Vivaldi's _The Four Seasons_
Orff's _Carmina Burana_
> Film
_Gone With the Wind_
_The Wizard of Oz_
_Casablanca_
_Duck Soup_
One Fred Astaire and Ginger Rodgers movie of your choice
Can I add theatre?
_Oedipus Rex_
_Macbeth_
_Hamlet_
_Henry V_
_Much Ado About Nothing_
--
Jennifer Winters
"Blow, don't suck!"
Willem Gorter
> >
> > Erk.
>
> What've you got against the Ode to Joy? I prefer Saint-Saens
> and Gershwin myself, but Beethoven's best symphony was the
> Ninth.
>
good as the 5th or the 6th in my opinion. Try Dvorak's 9th (American
Symphony), or better still, his cello concerto (also written in America) if
you want sweeping music.
Willem Gorter
Bible
Victor Hugo - Les Misérables
Shakespeare (anything, I personally like A midsummernight's dream, but for
this poll probably Hamlet)
Homerus - Ilias & Odysee
Karl Marx - Das Kapital
> Art
Michelangelo - Sixtine Chapel
Leonardo da Vinci - Mona Lisa (you have to have seen it, but it's a
deception, especially as it is displayed in the Louvre in Paris)
Rodin - Le Penseur (the thinker)
Picasso - a lot to choose from
Titian - a lot of paintings also
> Music
Beethoven's 5th (must know)
Mozart - Zauberflöte (the enchanted flute)
Beatles - Yellow submarine or anything mostly
Pink Floyd - The Wall
Michael Jackson - Beat It
> Film
Gone with the wind
Casablanca
Star Wars
The Silence of the Lambs
Mad Max
Scott Spiegelberg
"New World Symphony", not American Symphony. I agree that his cello
concerto is very good, but Elgar's is more sweeping.
> you want sweeping music.
I named Beethoven's Ninth rather than Fifth because it had more
ramifications for subsequent composers, such as Wagner, Mahler,
Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Schumann, Debussy, etc.
David Chapman
buttocks:
>> Music
> One opera of your choice by Wagner
So long as it isn't The Ring Cycle, anyway. I think there's
a market for T-shirts with the legend, "I SURVIVED
GOTTERDAMMERUNG".
naturelover
Interesting. Most of the answers came from people with an "English"
background. So Shakespeare showed up quite often. And deservedly. But
is he really more important than say Moliere, Goethe or Schiller for
world literature?
But anyway.
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
>
> Books
Patrick Sueskind: Das Parfum (Parfume). His use of the German language
is just superb and incredible. Never thought anyone can do this with
that language.
Remarque: Im Westen nichts Neues (Nothing new on the western front)
and Buchheim: Das Boot (The Boat).
Poe: Everything
Eco: The name of the rose.
Saint-Exupery: Le petit prince.
> Art
Picasso
van Gogh
Dali
da Vinci
> Music
Mozart
Beethoven
Beatles
> Film
Gattaca
Extreme Meassures
Schindler's list
American history X
Later
Aaron Bergman
<Pine.SGI.4.21.0206291...@theory.esm.rochester.edu>,
Scott Spiegelberg <spi...@theory.esm.rochester.edu> wrote:
>
> I named Beethoven's Ninth rather than Fifth because it had more
> ramifications for subsequent composers, such as Wagner, Mahler,
> Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Schumann, Debussy, etc.
As a whole, I like the Ninth the best, but movement by movement, the
second movement of the seventh wins.
Aaron
--
Aaron Bergman
<http://www.princeton.edu/~abergman/>
Sean O'Hara
>
> Foolishly giving up the right to remain silent,
> Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com>
> confessed...
> > >
> > "A Face in the Crowd" directed by Elia Kazan, starring Andy Griffith
> > "The Trial" directed by Orson Welles, starring Anthony Perkins
>
> Why "The Trial", as opposed to "Citizen Kane"? What makes this a more
> culturally educating movie than the other?
>
up "Citizen Kane." Knowing Welles other works (I chose "The Trial"
because it's my favorite) gives a person depth of knowledge, which
I think is more important than seeing all the films on the AFI 100.
(Of course, if you truly want to sound knowledgable about Welles,
you should bring up his work in "Transformers: The Movie.")
> > "12 Monkeys" directed by Terry Gilliam, starring Bruce Willis (or
> > anything else by Gilliam)
>
> Yes to "12 Monkeys", "Brazil", or "The Fisher King", no to the horrible
> Las Vegas one.
>
True, that's a bit disappointing. So just watch "Time Bandits" twice.
--
Sean O’Hara
Ralf Flicker
>
> leigh_...@paramount.com (Leigh Butler) wrote in message news:<3d1caef6...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
>
> Interesting. Most of the answers came from people with an "English"
> background. So Shakespeare showed up quite often. And deservedly. But
> is he really more important than say Moliere, Goethe or Schiller for
> world literature?
> But anyway.
Good point. Moliere is intriguing, but as a swede I would
without hesitation put Strindberg higher on my list, above even
Shakespeare, as suggested reading for the culturally curious.
But who the fuck is Strindberg, if you're not swedish...
[books]
> Saint-Exupery: Le petit prince.
BIG aye. Simply wonderful.
> > Art
>
> Picasso
> van Gogh
> Dali
> da Vinci
>
> > Music
>
> Mozart
> Beethoven
> Beatles
Mendelssonhn's violin concerto Op.64 in E minor, first movement
"Allegretto molto appassionato".
ralf
Laura M. Parkinson
rhapsodized in blue:
>"Kenneth G. Cavness" wrote:
>>
>> Foolishly giving up the right to remain silent,
>> Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com>
>> confessed...
>> > > Film
>> > >
>> > "A Face in the Crowd" directed by Elia Kazan, starring Andy Griffith
>> > "The Trial" directed by Orson Welles, starring Anthony Perkins
>>
>> Why "The Trial", as opposed to "Citizen Kane"? What makes this a more
>> culturally educating movie than the other?
>>
>Because everyone who wants to sound edumacated about film will bring
>up "Citizen Kane." Knowing Welles other works (I chose "The Trial"
>because it's my favorite) gives a person depth of knowledge, which
>I think is more important than seeing all the films on the AFI 100.
>(Of course, if you truly want to sound knowledgable about Welles,
>you should bring up his work in "Transformers: The Movie.")
Hey, Unicron ROCKS!
*ahem* don't mind me.
--
-'-,-'-<<0 Trickster 0>>-'-,-'- lpark...@mindspring.com
http://lparkinson.home.mindspring.com
"Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be
destroyed." -Richard Adams, Watership Down
jamie
>
> True. I left it very vague. I think, though, that probably what I was
> referring to is #1, Western Civilization at large (mainly because I'm
> much more familiar with the other two).
Two books that cover this topic pretty well (for Americans):
"An Incomplete Education" by Judy Jones and William Wilson
"The Dictionary of Cultural Literacy" by Hirsch, Kett and Trefil
--
jamie (mj...@cox-internet.com)
"There's a seeker born every minute."
David Chapman
> leigh_...@paramount.com (Leigh Butler) wrote in message
> news:<3d1caef6...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
>
> Interesting. Most of the answers came from people with an "English"
> background. So Shakespeare showed up quite often. And deservedly. But
> is he really more important than say Moliere, Goethe or Schiller for
> world literature?
Walk down your town's main street and ask twenty people
who Moliere, Goethe, Schiller and Shakespeare are, in that
order. You'll get 18-20 who know Shakespeare, and one
or two for the rest. Good grief, *I* don't know who Schiller
is.
Dave Crisp
<evil...@madasafish.com> waxed long:
>
> Good grief, *I* don't know who Schiller
> is.
>
The only one I know of was Beethoven's lyricist.
Tessy
<willem...@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
>> Books
A Dance to the music of time - Anthony Powell
>> Art
La Primavera (Allegory of Spring) - Botticelli
>> Music
Adagio for Strings - Samuel Barber
Götterdämmerung (Twilight of the Gods) Trauermarsch (Funeral March) -
Wagner
>> Film
Bladerunner - dir Ridley Scott
--
Tessy @ nospam.com
General info: your sig should be prefaced by "-- " ie dash, dash, space.
This enables intelligent newsreaders to snip it upon reply automagically.
Kenneth G. Cavness
Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com>
confessed...
> "Kenneth G. Cavness" wrote:
> >
> > Foolishly giving up the right to remain silent,
> > Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com>
> > confessed...
> > > > Film
> > > >
> > > "A Face in the Crowd" directed by Elia Kazan, starring Andy Griffith
> > > "The Trial" directed by Orson Welles, starring Anthony Perkins
> >
> > Why "The Trial", as opposed to "Citizen Kane"? What makes this a more
> > culturally educating movie than the other?
> >
> Because everyone who wants to sound edumacated about film will bring
> up "Citizen Kane."
Sometimes, this makes sense. "Citizen Kane" was, hands-down, one of the
best movies of all time. Its format, style, and even entire scenes have
been copied shamelessly and even at times seamlessly in other movies
("Nixon" being one of the clearer examples), and for the time, it was a
highly technologically advanced film.
> > > "12 Monkeys" directed by Terry Gilliam, starring Bruce Willis (or
> > > anything else by Gilliam)
> >
> > Yes to "12 Monkeys", "Brazil", or "The Fisher King", no to the horrible
> > Las Vegas one.
> >
> True, that's a bit disappointing. So just watch "Time Bandits" twice.
Believe it or not, I don't think I've even seen "Time Bandits" once.
Aaron Bergman
Dave Crisp <da...@goldeneyes.org.uk> wrote:
> On Saturday 29 June 2002 8:56 pm, David Chapman
> <evil...@madasafish.com> waxed long:
> > Good grief, *I* don't know who Schiller
> > is.
>
> The only one I know of was Beethoven's lyricist.
"An Die Freude" (or however it goes) predates Beethoven's symphony.
David Chapman
buttocks:
> Foolishly giving up the right to remain silent,
> Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com>
> confessed...
>> "Kenneth G. Cavness" wrote:
>>> Why "The Trial", as opposed to "Citizen Kane"? What makes this a
>>> more culturally educating movie than the other?
>>>
>> Because everyone who wants to sound edumacated about film will bring
>> up "Citizen Kane."
> [snip]
>
> Sometimes, this makes sense. "Citizen Kane" was, hands-down, one of
> the best movies of all time. Its format, style, and even entire
> scenes have been copied shamelessly and even at times seamlessly in
> other movies ("Nixon" being one of the clearer examples), and for the
> time, it was a highly technologically advanced film.
I'll agree with you that it was stylistically ahead of its time, but
that doesn't make it a great movie any more than Spacehunter:
Adventures Beyond the Forbidden Zone was a great movie
because it was the flashiest 3D movie. The script is turgid and
disjointed, and the acting is not of the highest quality. If Kane
didn't look as good as it does, it would long since have been
forgotten - deservedly so.
Now, if you want to see a movie that was both technologically
advanced *and* a good film, I recommend Birth Of A Nation.
D W Griffith may have been a racist, but he knew how to tell
a story in film.
Jamie Bowden
> Believe it or not, I don't think I've even seen "Time Bandits" once.
Well then, you ought to carry your ass out to the video store poste haste
and rent the mother fucker, now oughtn't ye?
Jamie Bowden
--
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
Iain Bowen <ala...@alaric.org.uk>
Scott Spiegelberg
> The following message was found tattooed on Jennifer Winters's
> buttocks:
>
> >> Music
>
> > One opera of your choice by Wagner
>
> So long as it isn't The Ring Cycle, anyway. I think there's
> a market for T-shirts with the legend, "I SURVIVED
> GOTTERDAMMERUNG".
What don't you like about those operas? Or is it just Gotterdammerung?
Scott Spiegelberg
> In article
> <Pine.SGI.4.21.0206291...@theory.esm.rochester.edu>,
> Scott Spiegelberg <spi...@theory.esm.rochester.edu> wrote:
> >
> > I named Beethoven's Ninth rather than Fifth because it had more
> > ramifications for subsequent composers, such as Wagner, Mahler,
> > Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Schumann, Debussy, etc.
>
> As a whole, I like the Ninth the best, but movement by movement, the
> second movement of the seventh wins.
Agreed. Actually, I like the Seventh as a whole better than the Ninth,
but I feel the Ninth has more cultural significance.
Scott Spiegelberg
And yet you like the Ode to Joy...
Dave Crisp
waxed long:
> In article <afl884$fjive$1...@ID-102876.news.dfncis.de>,
> Dave Crisp <da...@goldeneyes.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday 29 June 2002 8:56 pm, David Chapman
>> <evil...@madasafish.com> waxed long:
>> > Good grief, *I* don't know who Schiller
>> > is.
>>
>> The only one I know of was Beethoven's lyricist.
>
> "An Die Freude" (or however it goes) predates Beethoven's symphony.
I am well aware of that.
But it doesn't alter the fact that, if Beethoven hadn't set part of it
to music at the end of the ninth, most people I know would never have
heard of him.
Hell, most people I know thought Beethoven wrote it until I set them
straight.
naturelover
> leigh_...@paramount.com (Leigh Butler) wrote in message news:<3d1caef6...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
>
> Interesting. Most of the answers came from people with an "English"
> background. So Shakespeare showed up quite often. And deservedly. But
> is he really more important than say Moliere, Goethe or Schiller for
> world literature?
like Cervantes, Dante or Ibsen. Or any Russians. Just a glimpse at
world literature.
> But anyway.
>
> > Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> > the following categories that you think one MUST
> > see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> > person:
> >
> > Books
>
> Patrick Sueskind: Das Parfum (Parfume). His use of the German language
> is just superb and incredible. Never thought anyone can do this with
> that language.
>
> Remarque: Im Westen nichts Neues (Nothing new on the western front)
> and Buchheim: Das Boot (The Boat).
>
> Poe: Everything
>
> Eco: The name of the rose.
>
> Saint-Exupery: Le petit prince.
>
contemporary Portuguese writer)
Baudelaire: Les fleurs du mal (if you like Poe you might check this
put ... but in French)
G. B. Shaw.
> > Art
>
> Picasso
> van Gogh
> Dali
> da Vinci
>
>
> > Music
>
> Mozart
> Beethoven
> Beatles
>
Verdi (his arias and Nabucco)
Phantom of the Opera (IMHO _the_ musical)
David Chapman
buttocks:
> On Sat, 29 Jun 2002, David Chapman wrote:
>
>> The following message was found tattooed on Jennifer Winters's
>> buttocks:
>>
>>>> Music
>>
>>> One opera of your choice by Wagner
>>
>> So long as it isn't The Ring Cycle, anyway. I think there's
>> a market for T-shirts with the legend, "I SURVIVED
>> GOTTERDAMMERUNG".
>
> What don't you like about those operas? Or is it just
> Gotterdammerung?
They're three days long and include people wailing about how
they're dying for 20 minutes at a time. Often. They're just
massively overblown and overwrought.
(The Gotterdammerung thing was a joke, BTW; everybody dies
in Gotterdammerung.)
David Chapman
buttocks:
> On Sat, 29 Jun 2002, David Chapman wrote:
>
> Good grief, *I* don't know who Schiller
>> is.
>
> And yet you like the Ode to Joy...
Is there a point buried somewhere in there, Scott?
naturelover
> The following message was found tattooed on naturelover's buttocks:
>
> > leigh_...@paramount.com (Leigh Butler) wrote in message
> > news:<3d1caef6...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
> >
> > Interesting. Most of the answers came from people with an "English"
> > background. So Shakespeare showed up quite often. And deservedly. But
> > is he really more important than say Moliere, Goethe or Schiller for
> > world literature?
>
> Walk down your town's main street and ask twenty people
> who Moliere, Goethe, Schiller and Shakespeare are, in that
> order. You'll get 18-20 who know Shakespeare, and one
> or two for the rest.
question - don't feel insulted if you're Australian for example) ;-)
> Good grief, *I* don't know who Schiller
> is.
Mind if I ask how old you are and what you do for a living? (since you
were stressing the *I* so much)
Would you consider someone culturally educated who has read everything
by Shakespeare but doesn't even know the great ones of other
countries? That would be so one-sided, don't you think? I mean world
literature doesn't solely consist of English literature.
Looking forward to your answers
naturelover
> In article <afl884$fjive$1...@ID-102876.news.dfncis.de>,
> Dave Crisp <da...@goldeneyes.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday 29 June 2002 8:56 pm, David Chapman
> > <evil...@madasafish.com> waxed long:
> > > Good grief, *I* don't know who Schiller
> > > is.
> >
> > The only one I know of was Beethoven's lyricist.
>
> "An Die Freude" (or however it goes) predates Beethoven's symphony.
>
> Aaron
After the re-unification they changed it to "Ode an die Freiheit".
When they played it in Berlin.
Bye
David Chapman
> "David Chapman" <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote in message
> news:<afl43i$fdfbi$1...@ID-93395.news.dfncis.de>...
>> The following message was found tattooed on naturelover's buttocks:
>>
>>> leigh_...@paramount.com (Leigh Butler) wrote in message
>>> news:<3d1caef6...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
>>>
>>> Interesting. Most of the answers came from people with an "English"
>>> background. So Shakespeare showed up quite often. And deservedly.
>>> But is he really more important than say Moliere, Goethe or
>>> Schiller for world literature?
>>
>> Walk down your town's main street and ask twenty people
>> who Moliere, Goethe, Schiller and Shakespeare are, in that
>> order. You'll get 18-20 who know Shakespeare, and one
>> or two for the rest.
> That's because you live in Great Britain, I guess?
I live in the English-speaking world.
> Mind if I ask how old you are and what you do for a living? (since you
> were stressing the *I* so much)
28, IT trainer. Which has nothing to do with the fact that I'm
better read than 99% of the general population.
>
> Would you consider someone culturally educated who has read everything
> by Shakespeare but doesn't even know the great ones of other
> countries?
Yes - *if*, and *only* if, he's also well read in many other
varieties of English literature. Literature tends not to translate
well; the subtleties are often lost. When it comes to being
cultured, it is less important to judge by the number of
languages you speak than it is to look at how much you
exercise yourself within the ones you do.
Someone who only reads Shakespeare is no more cultured
than someone who only reads Stephen King; a cultured person
is one who can read and appreciate both, and a great deal more
in between. But you don't need to have read the Rubaiyat or
Nietzche in the original language; if you appreciate a wide range
of subjects and forms, and are capable of determining the good
from the bad, then you're cultured.
(You've also slightly missed the point, I think. I never said that
90+% of people have read Shakespeare; I said that they'd
*heard* of him, whereas Schiller et all are far less well known.
A writer who only influences other writers is not culture.)
naturelover
> The following message was found tattooed on naturelover's buttocks:
[snip]
> > > Would you consider someone culturally educated who has read everything
> > by Shakespeare but doesn't even know the great ones of other
> > countries?
>
> Yes - *if*, and *only* if, he's also well read in many other
> varieties of English literature. Literature tends not to translate
> well; the subtleties are often lost.
That's oh so true.
Especially poems are basically untranslatable.
But prose OTOH translates fairly well.
> When it comes to being
> cultured, it is less important to judge by the number of
> languages you speak than it is to look at how much you
> exercise yourself within the ones you do.
>
> Someone who only reads Shakespeare is no more cultured
> than someone who only reads Stephen King; a cultured person
> is one who can read and appreciate both, and a great deal more
> in between. But you don't need to have read the Rubaiyat or
> Nietzche in the original language; if you appreciate a wide range
> of subjects and forms, and are capable of determining the good
> from the bad, then you're cultured.
>
> (You've also slightly missed the point, I think. I never said that
> 90+% of people have read Shakespeare;
me neither
> I said that they'd
> *heard* of him,
I know
> whereas Schiller et all are far less well known.
And my point was: *drummrolls*
That's because you live in the English speaking world.
If I do what you've adviced me I will get many people who have heard
of Goethe and Schiller.
And if I do it in France they probably all have heard of Moliere.
And in Spain of Cervantes.
And so on.
> A writer who only influences other writers is not culture.)
Schiller is the second most important writer in Germany.
And he influenced Goethe amongst others.
And every school pupil has to read him (in Germany - much like
Shakespeare in the English speaking world).
He's like Bach or Schuhmann or Haendel in music. Not quite Beethoven,
but still ... . (Or Mozart if you allow Austrians ... ;-) )
I seem to like the word "and". Hmm.
Later
Scott Spiegelberg
> The following message was found tattooed on Scott Spiegelberg's
> buttocks:
>
> > On Sat, 29 Jun 2002, David Chapman wrote:
> >
> >> The following message was found tattooed on Jennifer Winters's
> >> buttocks:
> >>
> >>>> Music
> >>
> >>> One opera of your choice by Wagner
> >>
> >> So long as it isn't The Ring Cycle, anyway. I think there's
> >> a market for T-shirts with the legend, "I SURVIVED
> >> GOTTERDAMMERUNG".
> >
> > What don't you like about those operas? Or is it just
> > Gotterdammerung?
>
> They're three days long and include people wailing about how
> they're dying for 20 minutes at a time. Often. They're just
> massively overblown and overwrought.
Four days, actually. Let's see, Sigmund dies, Sigfried dies, Brunhilde
dies, and all of the Gods die at once. Oh, and Fafner in his dragon
form (and he dies very quickly). Not that much dying for a cycle of 14
hours duration. Plus, all operas that are not comic have that
aspect. Even some Mozart opera buffa have 20+ minute pieces about one
emotion or plot point. It's like complaining that a comic book has
pictures.
My favorite Wagner opera is Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg, which still
has very long pieces. You want short and Wagner, you have to go with
either Die Feerie (which nobody knows) or The FLying Dutchman.
Scott Spiegelberg
> The following message was found tattooed on Scott Spiegelberg's
> buttocks:
>
> > On Sat, 29 Jun 2002, David Chapman wrote:
> >
> > Good grief, *I* don't know who Schiller
> >> is.
> >
> > And yet you like the Ode to Joy...
>
> Is there a point buried somewhere in there, Scott?
Schiller wrote the text to it.
David Chapman
buttocks:
> On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, David Chapman wrote:
>
>> The following message was found tattooed on Scott Spiegelberg's
>> buttocks:
>>
>>> On Sat, 29 Jun 2002, David Chapman wrote:
>>>
>>> Good grief, *I* don't know who Schiller
>>>> is.
>>>
>>> And yet you like the Ode to Joy...
>>
>> Is there a point buried somewhere in there, Scott?
>
> Schiller wrote the text to it.
And not knowing who wrote it in some way decreases my
ability to enjoy and/or appreciate it? That's ridiculous, Scott.
Dakaling
education than I have I'll try not to embarrass myself with my 2 cents.
> Books
The Art of War
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainace
The Two Lives of Charlemane
War and Peace
Anything by Kurt Vonnegut
> Art
The Scream
The Thinker
Any photograph by Ansel Adams
The Sistene Chapel
Whistler's Mother
> Music
In the Hall of the Mountain King - Grieg
The Nutcracker Suite - Tchicovsky
Anything by Wagner
Stairway to Heaven - Led Zepplin
A Kiss to Build a Dream On - Louis Armstrong
> Film
Citizen Kane (yes I know everyone says this, but there is a reason for that)
War of the Worlds
The Godfather
The Amazon Queen
Gattaca
Gabriel J.T. Wright
> Where have all the rasfwrj-ers gone?
>
> No, that's not the poll, just a small pout from moi.
>
[snip]
> Now, really, the poll:
>
> I want to know what youse guys think it takes for a person to be
> well-rounded culturally. And by "culturally" I mean specifically in
> the area of arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
>
> So:
>
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
It is hard to do this with out dipping into 'popular' culture, for
which milage most certainly does vary. Also, IMO, there is not such
thing as the definative list, but, here goes nothing.
> Books
Greco-Roman mythology - Homer (Illiad/Odyssey), Virgil (Aeneid), Ovid
(Metamorphoses), but beyond this my reading is distinctly
uncultured...
> Art
Turner and Constable, especially Turners watercolours of the Thames
valley. Ansel Adam's pictures of Yosemite.
> Music
People have already talked about quite a lot already, but: Mozart
(whatever takes your fancy, but specifically I like the _Great Mass_
and his Quintets. _Cose Fan Tuti_ is good fun as well), Bach (cello
suits). The Verdi _Requim_ with its Dies Irae is a must.
I might make a bid for some 70's rock and prog rock at this point,
Pink Floyd, King Crimson, and Led Zeppelin.
> Film
One that I have not seen mention yet and is a _classic_ is _The Third
Man_ which I think is an absolute master peice, and not just because
of Mr. Wells but Carol Reed's direction and, of course, the Zither
Music.
Beyond that my film choice start rapidly heading towards pop culture,
so I will leave it there.
> This poll brought to you by the letter P and O and L and L. Cause I
> said so, that's why.
Should that not be the letters P, O and L and the number 2?
Gabriel
--
Gabriel J.T. Wright
Medical Vision Lab, Dept. Engineering Science.
Oxford University.
Are K. Saxrud
Leigh Butler <leigh_...@paramount.com> wrote in message
meldingsnyheter:3d1caef6...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>
> I want to know what youse guys think it takes for a person to be
> well-rounded culturally. And by "culturally" I mean specifically in
> the area of arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
>
> So:
>
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
>
Shakespeare and Dante comes to mind. And the Bible and the Qur'an are very
important works as well.
> Art
the Mona Lisa by da Vinci, Scream by Munch, Michelangelo's Sixtinth (sp?)
chapel. Personal favorite though: HR Giger.
> Music
Mozart, Beethoven, Beatles.
> Film
This is a tough one for me, as I haven't seen many of the old classics..
I'll pass, I think :)
Mark Loy
(Leigh Butler) wrote:
> Where have all the rasfwrj-ers gone?
Long time passing.
> No, that's not the poll, just a small pout from moi.
Hey, I bet you didn't know that this makes the whole post "on-topic", did you?
What am I saying?
You're the FAQmongering Caretaker de la Current FAQ Iteration Du Jour.
Of course you know of moi topics.
Forget I said anything.
> Here's the poll:
"Okay, God...Lemme havit!"
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
>
> Books
> Art
> Music
> Film
Hey, I'd like to play.
Books:
The Book of Mormon
The Book of Mormon II, the Wrath of Kahn
How I Did It--Baron Von Frankenstein
The Life and Times of Ben Gazarra
The Idiot's Guide to the Kama Sutra
Art:
Conan Doyle
Linkletter
Carney
Before the Orse
Hawkwing
Music:
Ride My Seesaw--the Moody Blues
Jurassic Park--Weird Al
The Theme to the Andy Griffith Show--Burt Themesong Writerguy
Muskrat Love--The Captain and Tenille
The Star Spangled Banner--Jim Nabors or Jimi Hendrix...I always get these
two confused
Film:
Debbie Duz Dishes
The Jerk
The Blob
The Bounty
Sleeping Beauty
ML
Chris Ruser
leigh_...@paramount.com says...
>
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
>
> Books
of the Bible was what "set" the grammar, spelling, and general
language style, so it should be read for this reason if no other.
Shakespeare - At least one play, at least one sonnet
General knowledge of Greek & Roman mythology
Darwin - The Voyage of the Beagle (this one is a little more
approachable, I think, than Origin of Species or Descent of Man, which
should be read also but are not essential, though a grasp of the ideas
therein is)
Gibbon - The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
> Art
No single example, but:
Greek sculpture
Renaissance painting
Impressionist painting
Architecture - general knowledge of historical styles from Gothic
cathedrals through post-modern skyscrapers
> Music
same as art; be able to recognize by style:
medieval/renaissance
Classical
Romantic
Jazz
> Film
I see very few films, so I'm not qualified on this. Or maybe,
a culturally educated person doesn't really need to see films?
I know you are trying to limit this poll to arts and entertainment,
but in my opinion a truly well-rounded person also has a grounding in
history, science, basic philosophy, and politics. (by the way, this is
an ideal person, not me. I don't measure up to my own ideals but am
working on it.)
--
Chris Ruser
John Anderson
>
>
>
>(It's not really a poll, but I call it a poll because I'm not sure
>what else to call it. Also, I've written the word "poll" so many times
>that it has ceased to make the slightest amount of sense, and I'm kind
>of enjoying the sensation.)
>
>(Poll! Poll!)
>
>Now, really, the poll:
>
>I want to know what youse guys think it takes for a person to be
>well-rounded culturally. And by "culturally" I mean specifically in
>the area of arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
>
>So:
>
>the following categories that you think one MUST
>see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
>person:
>
>Books
The Fountianhead - Ayn Rand
Les Miserables?? - Victor Hugo
the Federalist Papers
Lord of the Rings
>Art
the Parthenon
Sistine Chapel Ceiling
Funerary Temple of Queen Hatshepsut
the Night Watch
>Music
Requiem - Mozart
the Moonlight Sonata (all on of the movments, not
just the first) - Beethoven
9th Symphony (New World) - Dvorak
9th symphony (Choral) - Beethoven
Dark Side of the Moon - Pink Floyd
>Film
Citizen Kane
Pulp Fiction
Apollo 13
Apocalyse Now
2001
>
>(Yes, I know it will kill some of you to only name five of some of
>these, but I want to force you to be selective.)
>
>This poll brought to you by the letter P and O and L and L. Cause I
>said so, that's why.
>
>
--
"I love you both more than life itself,
but you're all f***ing mad"
Ozzy Osbourne, "The Osbournes"
John Anderson
John Anderson
100...@theory.esm.rochester.edu>, spi...@theory.esm.rochester.edu
says...
>On Sat, 29 Jun 2002, Aaron Bergman wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <Pine.SGI.4.21.0206291...@theory.esm.rochester.edu>,
>> Scott Spiegelberg <spi...@theory.esm.rochester.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> > I named Beethoven's Ninth rather than Fifth because it had more
>> > ramifications for subsequent composers, such as Wagner, Mahler,
>> > Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Schumann, Debussy, etc.
>>
>> As a whole, I like the Ninth the best, but movement by movement, the
>> second movement of the seventh wins.
>
>Agreed. Actually, I like the Seventh as a whole better than the Ninth,
>but I feel the Ninth has more cultural significance.
>
That is so true. I have always felt that the 7th
was misplaced, and overlooked. I is my favorite (the
melody in the second movement is cool), but the 9th
is the most "important"
John Anderson
ke...@cavness.org says...
>Foolishly giving up the right to remain silent,
>Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com>
>confessed...
>> "Kenneth G. Cavness" wrote:
>> >
>> > Foolishly giving up the right to remain silent,
>> > Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com>
>> > confessed...
>> > > > Film
>> > > >
>> > > "A Face in the Crowd" directed by Elia Kazan, starring Andy Griffith
>> > > "The Trial" directed by Orson Welles, starring Anthony Perkins
>> >
>> > Why "The Trial", as opposed to "Citizen Kane"? What makes this a more
>> > culturally educating movie than the other?
>> >
>> Because everyone who wants to sound edumacated about film will bring
>> up "Citizen Kane."
>[snip]
>
>Sometimes, this makes sense. "Citizen Kane" was, hands-down, one of the
>best movies of all time. Its format, style, and even entire scenes have
>been copied shamelessly and even at times seamlessly in other movies
>("Nixon" being one of the clearer examples), and for the time, it was a
>highly technologically advanced film.
I don't think that you can even put the qualifier
"for it's time" on there. So many of the camera
techniques he pioneered in Citizen Kane, have become
standard film techniques today
>
>> > > "12 Monkeys" directed by Terry Gilliam, starring Bruce Willis (or
>> > > anything else by Gilliam)
>> >
>> > Yes to "12 Monkeys", "Brazil", or "The Fisher King", no to the horrible
>> > Las Vegas one.
>> >
>> True, that's a bit disappointing. So just watch "Time Bandits" twice.
>
>Believe it or not, I don't think I've even seen "Time Bandits" once.
>
>
>
--
John Anderson
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, texas...@worldnet.att.net says...>news:3d1caef6...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>
><snip>
>
>> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
>> the following categories that you think one MUST
>> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
>> person:
>
>
>> Books
>
>The Sherlock Holmes Mysteries by Doyle
>The Collected Works of H. G. Wells
>The Collected Works of Edgar Allen Poe
>_1984_ by George Orwell
>One good non-fiction work on Greco-Roman mythology
>
>> Art
>
>One work of your choice by Michaelangelo
>One work of your choice by Van Gogh
>The _Mona Lisa_ by Da Vinci
>One work of your choice by Giotto
>One work of your choice by Degas
>
>> Music
>
>One opera of your choice by Mozart
>One opera of your choice by Verdi
>One opera of your choice by Wagner
>Orff's _Carmina Burana_
>
Anyone who hasn't been to the opera, at least for the
experience of going is truly missing out. The theater,
the music, the singing, the costume, the people.
Great stuff -- been too long since I went.
Scott Spiegelberg
> The following message was found tattooed on Scott Spiegelberg's
> buttocks:
>
> > On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, David Chapman wrote:
> >
> >> The following message was found tattooed on Scott Spiegelberg's
> >> buttocks:
> >>
> >>> On Sat, 29 Jun 2002, David Chapman wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Good grief, *I* don't know who Schiller
> >>>> is.
> >>>
> >>> And yet you like the Ode to Joy...
> >>
> >> Is there a point buried somewhere in there, Scott?
> >
> > Schiller wrote the text to it.
>
> And not knowing who wrote it in some way decreases my
> ability to enjoy and/or appreciate it? That's ridiculous, Scott.
Wow, somebody woke up without a sense of humor today.
(Yes, that leaves me open for you to retort that it was clearly me. Have
fun!)
Scott Spiegelberg
> In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0206300111500.1215065-
> 100...@theory.esm.rochester.edu>, spi...@theory.esm.rochester.edu
> says...
> >On Sat, 29 Jun 2002, Aaron Bergman wrote:
> >
> >> In article
> >> <Pine.SGI.4.21.0206291...@theory.esm.rochester.edu>,
> >> Scott Spiegelberg <spi...@theory.esm.rochester.edu> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I named Beethoven's Ninth rather than Fifth because it had more
> >> > ramifications for subsequent composers, such as Wagner, Mahler,
> >> > Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Schumann, Debussy, etc.
> >>
> >> As a whole, I like the Ninth the best, but movement by movement, the
> >> second movement of the seventh wins.
> >
> >Agreed. Actually, I like the Seventh as a whole better than the Ninth,
> >but I feel the Ninth has more cultural significance.
> >
>
> That is so true. I have always felt that the 7th
> was misplaced, and overlooked. I is my favorite (the
> melody in the second movement is cool), but the 9th
> is the most "important"
You might be interested to know that John Corigliano composed a
Divertimento for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, which has a very large
quote of the second movement in it. I heard the premiere seven years ago.
David Chapman
buttocks:
> On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, David Chapman wrote:
>>>>> Good grief, *I* don't know who Schiller
>>>>>> is.
>>>>>
>>>>> And yet you like the Ode to Joy...
>>>>
>>>> Is there a point buried somewhere in there, Scott?
>>>
>>> Schiller wrote the text to it.
>>
>> And not knowing who wrote it in some way decreases my
>> ability to enjoy and/or appreciate it? That's ridiculous, Scott.
>
> Wow, somebody woke up without a sense of humor today.
Nah, you just woke up without a brain yesterday (or whenever).
I suspect it's a side effect of procreation; between the lost sleep
and the hours spent cooing and exchanging sickeningly gooey
looks with the SO, the rational thought muscles get a really
good chance to atrophy...
MikeTimbers
Candide - Voltaire
1984 - Orwell
Brave New World - Huxley
Le Grand Meaulnes - Alain-Fournier
La Peste - Camus
Music
Adagio For Strings - Barber
Cello Concerto - Elgar
Bach - pretty much all of it
Rachmaninov
The works of Lennon/McCartney from the late 60s
Art
El Greco
Dali
Monet
Da Vinci
Raphael
Films
Bladerunner
The Third Man
Casablanca
Arsenic and Old Lace
Rajesh Vaidya
> I want to know what youse guys think it takes for a person to be
> well-rounded culturally. And by "culturally" I mean specifically in
> the area of arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
Are the contestants on, say, MTV's game shows culturally well-rounded?
(I think I know what you're getting at, of course, but your question
isn't clear enough.) Even so, just having read/heard/seen any number
of the things that, no doubt, everyone will mention in this thread,
will not guarantee cultural well-roundedness; the number of neurons
allocated for said activities, and the results of the synapses define
that.
Still, I'll take a stab at it. Because there are so many in each
category, I'll only mention the ones that I actively use in some
fashion.
> Books
The Gita by the Chinmaya Mission.
The Art of War.
The Treasury of Favorite Poems.
King Lear.
I tend to open one of the first three at any random page and read for
as much time as I have/need; despite it being a re-read, there's always
something new/useful to learn. Probably because it's a reread + rethink.
> Art
I'm pretty much illiterate w.r.t. paintings, sculptures, etc. My own
efforts (needless to say, with no formal training) at painting and
photography are all I know. (They've taught me why patience is called
a virtue.)
> Music
I know nothing of western classical music. In Indian classical, I'll
mention some of Kabir's Nirguni songs. In western pop/rock, Floyd and
Tull are my favorites - I don't want to know if they are relevant to
my cultural "rounding." Add in Louis Armstrong.
> Film
I don't watch movies or TV much, and when I do, I mostly go in for
"mindless." Still, there are some that stick in my mind:
Charlie Chaplin (among many, the Great Dictator).
Star Wars.
Schindler's List.
My favorite mindless movie was Predator - saw it about 30 times. Why?
There was a free 1-month deal on Cinemax, followed by a free 1-month
deal on HBO. I also tend to get hooked during channel-surfing by any
of Clint Eastwood's spaghetti westerns (really the only time I watch
TNT or TBS).
> (Yes, I know it will kill some of you to only name five of some of
> these, but I want to force you to be selective.)
Alright, so how does the shoe fit?
And, just to round off this thread - what does it mean to be culturally
well-rounded or literate?
--
Rajesh
Ross Bertram
Leigh Butler wrote:
>
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
>
> Books
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence/Lila - Robert Pirsig
Anything by Plato and Aristotle
Lord of the Rings - Tolkien
The Tao of Pooh & The Te of Piglet - Benjamin Hoff
> Art
Van Gogh - Starry Night
Michelangelo - David
> Music
Anything but country! :-)
> Film
Resevoir Dogs
Memento
Clerks
The Breakfast Club
Ross
Leigh Butler
<evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
>The following message was found tattooed on Leigh Butler's buttocks:
>> On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 00:28:10 +0100, "David Chapman"
>> <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
<snip>
>>> There are no five books, or pieces of
>>> art, or films, that even come remotely close to scratching the
>>> surface of well-rounded cultural appreciation.
>>
>> What I was asking was, in the pantheon of cultural experiences out
>> there, which five in each of these categories would you personally put
>> the highest emphasis on?
>
>And once again, it cannot be done.
Most everyone else who's replied in this thread seems to have managed
it.
<snip>
>> Since I was obviously anticipating that people's answers would be
>> different from both mine and from other people's, the whole point of
>> my poll was based on this very (screamingly obvious) observation you
>> make above.
>
>It really is not "screamingly obvious" except to you.
Again, you appear to be the only one who didn't get it.
If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will step forward and say so.
>>> I *can* say that anybody who thinks you can sum up any branch
>>> of culture in one to five items is uncultured by definition, though.
>>> Is that what you were looking for?
>>
>> I was looking for something to stimulate conversation on a lately
>> sluggish forum.
>>
>> I was looking for suggestions on things to read/watch/listen to/look
>> at that might further expand my horizons.
>
>Then ask for that, not for an overly narrow definition of what you
>must do in order to fit a positive label.
Again, my poll.
That said, I am perfectly willing to discuss the appropriateness of
the terms I used or in what context I meant them - as long as my
opponent can do it without sounding like a stepped-on cat.
I really don't see why this is pissing you off so much. I'm not
writing the official irrevocable engraved-in-stone encyclopedia
definition of "culture" here, I'm just trying to start up an
interesting debate. Relax already.
>> You, obviously, are looking to start a fight. Too bad. I have better
>> things to do.
>
>Like posting polls that will almost *guarantee* a fight? We've
>already had the first "How the hell can you say <foo> is culture?"
>post. How long do you think it'll be before the first "So you're
>saying I'm not cultured because I don't like/haven't heard <foo>"
>post?
I know this is a foreign concept to you, Chapman, but people _can_
have discussions without letting it devolve into a metaphorical
fistfight. And once again, so far the only one who has managed to be
combative about this subject is - wait for it - you.
--
Leigh Butler leigh_...@paramount.com
******************************************************
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those
of Paramount Pictures or its affiliates.
John S. Novak, III
>>Anything by Pratchett.
> I'll give you the Machiavelli & Locke, and even the Conrad, but how do
> you manage to qualify Terry Pratchett as "required for cultural
> literacy." (Guess: "culture" = British pop culture)
That's one of the basic problems with the question-- which culture?
A lot of people have added Sun Tzu, as well, which despite the pop-war
shelves, is not really part of Western cultural heritage. I could
just as easily add _The Thirty Six Stratagems_ to be ridiculously
obscure, since the only person I'm confident would have heard of it
would be Trent.
(I wouldn't be surprised if other people had, mind you, but Trent is
the only one I'd be moderately surprised if he hadn't.)
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
The Humblest Man on the Net
Leigh Butler
broken?
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 19:08:25 GMT, leigh_...@paramount.com (Leigh
Butler) wrote:
Realized I never posted my own list, for the eddifycation of y'all.
And I like that I did this - now have a handy-dandy list of stuff I
forgot about (or never knew existed) to take with me next time I
wander through the B&N/Blockbuster. Thanks, guys.
In order to avoid repetition, we're going to play by Wheel of Fortune
rules, assume Shakespeare, the Bible, Iliad/Odyssey, Mozart,
Beethoven, Citizen Kane, and Casablanca are all givens, and work from
there.
This list is also limited to things I have actually seen or read or
heard, myself; so while I think the _Bhavagad Gita_ or _The Epic of
Gilgamesh_, for instance, should probably be on here, I won't include
them because I've never read them.
>Books
(Appallingly enough, I'm limited pretty much exclusively to British
and American literature, here. See, I knew I needed to do this poll.)
_Beowulf_
Chaucer's _Canterbury Tales_
Mary Shelley, _Frankenstein_
John Steinbeck, _Grapes of Wrath_
J.D. Salinger, _Catcher in the Rye_
>Art
Edward Hopper, "Nighthawks"
Salvador Dali, "The Persistence of Memory"
Vincent van Gogh, "First Steps" [1]
Michelangelo, "Pieta"
The Notre Dame cathedral, Paris
>Music
Tchaikovsky (_Nutcracker Suite_, obviously, but personally I like
_Sleeping Beauty_ and _Symphony Pathetique_ better)
Chopin, Nocturne in C Sharp Minor, Op. 27
Hildegard of Bingen, Gregorian chant (several works)
Gioacchino Rossini, _William Tell_, _Barber of Seville_, etc.
Everyone should at some point listen to the only existing recording of
a castrato singer (Alessandro Moreschi). Truly eerie.
>Film
D.W. Griffith's _Birth of a Nation_, despite the repugnant storyline
Sergei Eisenstein's _Battleship Potemkin_
Charlie Chaplin's _The Great Dictator_
Billy Wilder's _Some Like It Hot_
Steven Spielberg's _Schindler's List_
[1] Not the one you thought I was going to say, is it?
Aaron Bergman
>
>You might be interested to know that John Corigliano composed a
>Divertimento for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, which has a very large
>quote of the second movement in it. I heard the premiere seven years ago.
So even classical composers are sampling now?
Aaron
--
Aaron Bergman
<http://www.princeton.edu/~abergman/>
Jeff Dougan
> In article <MZ6T8.81$V4.1...@news.uchicago.edu>, P. Korda wrote:
>
>
>>>Anything by Pratchett.
>>>
>
>
>>I'll give you the Machiavelli & Locke, and even the Conrad, but how do
>>you manage to qualify Terry Pratchett as "required for cultural
>>literacy." (Guess: "culture" = British pop culture)
>>
> That's one of the basic problems with the question-- which culture?
> A lot of people have added Sun Tzu, as well, which despite the pop-war
> shelves, is not really part of Western cultural heritage. I could
> just as easily add _The Thirty Six Stratagems_ to be ridiculously
> obscure, since the only person I'm confident would have heard of it
> would be Trent.
Granted. As one of the first people to cite Sun Tzu in response to this
list, let me comment somewhat on that choice:
The applicability of Machiavelli to arenas outside the political is
somewhat limited. This, unfortunately, is also true of those parts of
von Clauswitz that I have managed to penetrate. (Admittedly, very, very
little.) The closest real equivalent to The Art of War in the West that
I know of is titled "Warfighting", but as it was written in 1989, I'm
not certain yet that it has the staying power than Sun Tzu has shown. I
could equally have suggested Musashi without being ridiculously obscure.
Jeff
John S. Novak, III
Still am, but am now in the "Hiding from the world" phase that I
occasionally find so necessary.
> I want to know what youse guys think it takes for a person to be
> well-rounded culturally. And by "culturally" I mean specifically in
> the area of arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
Having had the benefit of reading most of the responses first, I'm
with Pam, Kozlowski, and, yes, Chapman, who in this case you are
beating on for saying mostly the same thing as other people. And this
once, I don't think he's been particularly obnoxious about it.
There are no magic works, here. I know what you're asking, but it was
in my opinion a pretty bad way of asking it, and it carries with it
the same snobbishness that turns many people off in the first place.
That anyone should be able to call me culturally uneducated because I
haven't read their five favorite books or seen their five favorite
paintings, for instance, just starts up the twitch in my left arm.
And it's ridiculously broad anyway, and even knowing that the exercise
is rather silly, can still only be done as a sort of a Chinese-menu
thing.
> Books
1) At least one work, preferably a play, by Shakespeare.
2) At least one work (translations acceptable) by Julius Caesar, Ovid,
Cicero, or Homer.
3) At least three of the Federalist Papers.
4) At least one of The Lord of the Rings (the whole trilogy), Starship
Troopers, or a major work by Asimov.
5) At least one of Beowulf (translation acceptable), The Canterbury
Tales (at least three tales, translation NOT acceptable) or The Divine
Comedy (at least 33 Cantos, translation acceptable, Ciardi
recommended.)
> Art
When I think of art, I usually think of architecture.
So, since I don't get to travel that much, I guess I can't be
culturally edicated even by my own lights....
1) At least one of Monticello, Quincy, the Capitol Building, the
Washington, Jefferson, or Lincoln Memorials.
2) At least one of the Chicago, New York, or London skylines, or
walking around Rome for one day.
3) At least one of the Sistine Chapel, the Hagia Sophia, Notre Dame,
or the National Cathedral.
4) At least one of the Pantheon, the Parthenon, Stonehenge, or one
Pyramid (Egyptian or Aztec, preferably both.)
5) As a sop to what most people think of when one mentions art:
At least one of David, the Mona Lisa, The Last Judgement, or
Starry Night.
> Music
1) Any major work by Beethoven, Mozart of Bach
2) Something by Scott Joplin
3) Any complete album that went triple platinum written in the last
50 years.
(Music is cheap, ubiquitous, and can be listened to while doing just
about anything else, which is why this is of necessity so vague.
Music is too pervasive.)
> Film
1) Citizen Kane
2) Star Wars
3) Die Hard
4) 2001
5) Gone with the Wind
Aaron Bergman
>Chopin, Nocturne in C Sharp Minor, Op. 27
Is that the posthumous one? Has scales going up and down near the
end?
Leigh Butler
wrote:
>In article <3d20a215...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Leigh Butler wrote:
>>Chopin, Nocturne in C Sharp Minor, Op. 27
>
>Is that the posthumous one? Has scales going up and down near the
>end?
Yep.
One of the most exquisitely melancholy pieces of music I've ever
heard.
David Chapman
> On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:42:16 +0100, "David Chapman"
> <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
>> The following message was found tattooed on Leigh Butler's buttocks:
>>> On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 00:28:10 +0100, "David Chapman"
>>> <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>>> There are no five books, or pieces of
>>>> art, or films, that even come remotely close to scratching the
>>>> surface of well-rounded cultural appreciation.
>>>
>>> What I was asking was, in the pantheon of cultural experiences out
>>> there, which five in each of these categories would you personally
>>> put the highest emphasis on?
>>
>> And once again, it cannot be done.
>
> Most everyone else who's replied in this thread seems to have managed
> it.
They've provided a list of five things they like, yes, but I'd
hardly say they've covered the ground in the process.
David Chapman
> In article <too long>,
> Scott Spiegelberg wrote:
>>
>> You might be interested to know that John Corigliano composed a
>> Divertimento for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, which has a very
>> large quote of the second movement in it. I heard the premiere
>> seven years ago.
>
> So even classical composers are sampling now?
Pa-pa-pa-*pom*
<wicki wicki wicki>
Pa-pa-pa-*pom*?
Leigh Butler
wrote:
>In article <3d1caef6...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Leigh Butler wrote:
>> I want to know what youse guys think it takes for a person to be
>> well-rounded culturally. And by "culturally" I mean specifically in
>> the area of arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
>
>> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
>> the following categories that you think one MUST
>> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
>> person:
>
>Having had the benefit of reading most of the responses first, I'm
>with Pam, Kozlowski, and, yes, Chapman, who in this case you are
>beating on for saying mostly the same thing as other people.
As I said, I didn't object to his objection, which was essentially the
same as Pam's and is a legitimate one, but to how he put it.
>And this
>once, I don't think he's been particularly obnoxious about it.
*shrug* His previous history disinclines me from giving him the
benefit of the doubt, and his subsequent remarks to Scott further down
the thread only reinforce my initial impression of his tone.
Who was in here saying something about respect being easy to lose and
hard to gain?
>There are no magic works, here. I know what you're asking, but it was
>in my opinion a pretty bad way of asking it, and it carries with it
>the same snobbishness that turns many people off in the first place.
>That anyone should be able to call me culturally uneducated because I
>haven't read their five favorite books or seen their five favorite
>paintings, for instance, just starts up the twitch in my left arm.
It could have been phrased more gracefully, I'll agree, but I don't
see where you're reading "snobbishness" into this. And the whole point
of asking was that someone else's five selections were probably not
going to be yours. If I'd thought everyone was going to list the same
five things I wouldn't have bothered to ask in the first place.
Here, let me try and clarify. I do not consider myself "culturally
uneducated", nor do I think that term applies to 99% of the people who
post here. Yet, despite that, there are a large number of so-called
"essential" works of art, literature, etc. that I only know of
secondhand or not at all. I was going to address this in a reply to
Mike's post, but I'll just put it here:
I recognize that you can get away with only knowing _of_ most artistic
works, but I'm, well, sick of that. I feel like I'm missing out. I'm
tired of being content to just nod sagely and say "Ah, yes, tilting at
windmills!" when someone brings up _Don Quixote_ so I look all in the
know, when in reality I've never read the damn thing.
If there are these works out there that are so all-pervasive and so
influential that they're still being quoted and copied and homaged-to
and parodied, and always will be, I feel that, in a way, they are
_owed_ firsthand experience instead of knowledge through osmosis. If
my formal education didn't give me that firsthand experience, and
obviously it didn't, then I'm never going to get it unless I do it
myself. Never hurts, though, to have the input of one of the more
diverse and (overall) intellectually inclined groups of people I
know...
So. I probably didn't put it very clearly what I was asking, but what
I was looking for were basically artistic "book numbers" - the stuff
that supposed to be in everyone's educational repertoire, even if in
reality most people could only hum along with most of them.
Which is pretty much exactly what I got from the responses in the
thread, so I guess most people managed to get what I was talking
about, clumsy phrasing notwithstanding.
Most of them I'm already familiar with, but a few that people threw
out I wasn't familiar with at all, so that's very cool. Stuff to take
with me to the library.
That's all I was looking for.
Scott Spiegelberg
> In article <too long>,
> Scott Spiegelberg wrote:
> >
> >You might be interested to know that John Corigliano composed a
> >Divertimento for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, which has a very large
> >quote of the second movement in it. I heard the premiere seven years ago.
>
> So even classical composers are sampling now?
They were sampling well before any pop musicians. See the musique
concrete movement of 1940-1960s, not even counting the parody masses of
the Renaissance (whole sections of other masses or motets inserted into a
new mass).
Zeynep Dilli / 'Morwen'
On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Leigh Butler declared:
> On 1 Jul 2002 21:15:01 GMT, aber...@princeton.edu (Aaron Bergman)
> wrote:
> >In article <3d20a215...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Leigh Butler wrote:
>
> >>Chopin, Nocturne in C Sharp Minor, Op. 27
> >
> >Is that the posthumous one? Has scales going up and down near the
> >end?
>
> Yep.
>
> One of the most exquisitely melancholy pieces of music I've ever
> heard.
Agreed. Also, the first piece that made me went "I'll play
this" within 15 seconds of hearing it for the first time.
Though his Ballade #1 (G minor) and Scherzo #2 (B flat minor) come
close in bittersweetness coefficient.
--
Zeynep Dilli
GE/MU/S/L d--(+) s: a24 C++ US+ P L+>++ E-- W++>$ N++ K++ w>-- !O M- V?
PS+ PE(-) Y+ !PGP t- !5 !X R+ tv-- b+++>++++ DI+ D G e++$>+++ h* x?
Scott Spiegelberg
> In article <3d20a215...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Leigh Butler wrote:
> >Chopin, Nocturne in C Sharp Minor, Op. 27
>
> Is that the posthumous one? Has scales going up and down near the
> end?
No, it is the first of two composed in 1835 (Larghetto), dedicated to
Countess
d'Apponyi. The posthumous one was composed in 1830 (Lento con gran
espressione), but not published until 1875. For those that want to listen
to both, see
http://chopin.interserver.net/nocturnes.html
Scott Spiegelberg
>
>
> On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Leigh Butler declared:
>
> > On 1 Jul 2002 21:15:01 GMT, aber...@princeton.edu (Aaron Bergman)
> > wrote:
> > >In article <3d20a215...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Leigh Butler wrote:
> >
> > >>Chopin, Nocturne in C Sharp Minor, Op. 27
> > >
> > >Is that the posthumous one? Has scales going up and down near the
> > >end?
> >
> > Yep.
> >
> > One of the most exquisitely melancholy pieces of music I've ever
> > heard.
>
> Agreed. Also, the first piece that made me went "I'll play
> this" within 15 seconds of hearing it for the first time.
>
> Though his Ballade #1 (G minor) and Scherzo #2 (B flat minor) come
> close in bittersweetness coefficient.
Now, which one do you and Leigh mean, the Op. 27 or the Op. posthumous
with the scales towards the end?
Leigh Butler
<spi...@theory.esm.rochester.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Zeynep Dilli / 'Morwen' wrote:
>> On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Leigh Butler declared:
>> > On 1 Jul 2002 21:15:01 GMT, aber...@princeton.edu (Aaron Bergman)
>> > wrote:
>> > >In article <3d20a215...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Leigh Butler wrote:
>> >
>> > >>Chopin, Nocturne in C Sharp Minor, Op. 27
>> > >
>> > >Is that the posthumous one? Has scales going up and down near the
>> > >end?
>> >
>> > Yep.
>> > One of the most exquisitely melancholy pieces of music I've ever
>> > heard.
>>
>> Agreed. Also, the first piece that made me went "I'll play
>> this" within 15 seconds of hearing it for the first time.
Someday. When I can get to a piano again...
*sigh*
>> Though his Ballade #1 (G minor) and Scherzo #2 (B flat minor) come
>> close in bittersweetness coefficient.
Agreed on the Ballade. I can't recall the Scherzo offhand.
>Now, which one do you and Leigh mean, the Op. 27 or the Op. posthumous
>with the scales towards the end?
Um... I thought there was only one in C Sharp Minor, but I see I was
wrong.
I meant the posthumous one. Sorry bout dat.
Edward Measure
> On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:48:38 -0600, er...@mindspring.com (Erica Sadun)
> wrote:
> >In article <3d1caef6...@news.cis.dfn.de>, leigh_...@paramount.com
> >(Leigh Butler) wrote:
> >
> >> Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> >> the following categories that you think one MUST
> >> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> >> person:
> >>
> >
> >Winnie the Pooh.
> >Curious George.
> >Madeline.
> >Where the Wild Things Are.
> >Harold and the Purple Crayon.
>
> <and so forth>
>
> Heh.
> I sense you're in a certain place, right about now...
Erica has been eaten by her children.
It's pretty scary, but she needs to start thinking ahead to Louis
Sacher and J K Rowling.
Edward Measure
the area of arts and entertainment (try not to be shocked).
>
> the following categories that you think one MUST
> see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> person:
It's pretty unlikely that anyone could become culturally rounded by
reading/looking at/listening to 5 of anything. My guess is that the
average rasfwrjian has read several thousand books, and listened to
tens of thousands of pieces of music. Art is a more specialized
taste, and harder to find in the original unless you live somewhere
with culture.
On the other hand Ramamujan became a mathematical genius by reading
one book.
Anyway, I will list a few things I haven't finished reading, listening
to etc, but sort of think I should.
>
> Books
The Dream of the Red Chamber
The Quantum Theory of Fields, I, II, and III by Steve Weinberg
Ulysses by Joyce
On Irrationals by Democritus
> Art
The undamaged Parthenon
> Music
Wagner's complete Ring Cycle (I always doze off some where between
Rheingold and Siegfried)
> Film
For film I have to name some no cultured person should have to sit
thru;
Dances with Wolves
Hannibal
Con Air
Anything 2, 3, 4, or higher (except LotR and HP of course)
>
> This poll brought to you by the letter P and O and L and L. Cause I
> said so, that's why.
What about U?
D'Rat
Edward Measure
> On Sat, 29 Jun 2002, Aaron Bergman wrote:
>
> > In article
> > Scott Spiegelberg <spi...@theory.esm.rochester.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > >
Tho I like the way he anticipated Stravinsky in the sixth movement of his 10th.
Edward Measure
>
Lemme havit!"
>
>
> > Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> > the following categories that you think one MUST
> > see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> > person:
> >
> > Art
> > Music
> > Film
>
>
> Hey, I'd like to play.
>
> Books:
>
> The Book of Mormon
>
> The Book of Mormon II, the Wrath of Kahn
>
> How I Did It--Baron Von Frankenstein
>
> The Life and Times of Ben Gazarra
>
> The Idiot's Guide to the Kama Sutra
>
>
> Art:
>
> Conan Doyle
> Linkletter
> Carney
> Before the Orse
> Hawkwing
>
>
> Music:
>
> Ride My Seesaw--the Moody Blues
>
> Jurassic Park--Weird Al
>
> The Theme to the Andy Griffith Show--Burt Themesong Writerguy
>
> Muskrat Love--The Captain and Tenille
>
> The Star Spangled Banner--Jim Nabors or Jimi Hendrix...I always get these
> two confused
>
>
> Film:
>
> Debbie Duz Dishes
>
> The Jerk
>
> The Blob
>
> The Bounty
>
> Sleeping Beauty
>
>
At least somebody here has Real Culture
-- --
Aaron Bergman
>>> Agreed. Also, the first piece that made me went "I'll play
>>> this" within 15 seconds of hearing it for the first time.
>
>Someday. When I can get to a piano again...
Those timing of those stupid scales always gets me. I suppose if I
actually tried practicing it, it probably wouldn't be that hard.
I've been thinking of getting a digital piano to resolve those
"get to a piano" issues. Anyone know much about them?
John S. Novak, III
>>And this
>>once, I don't think he's been particularly obnoxious about it.
> *shrug* His previous history disinclines me from giving him the
> benefit of the doubt, and his subsequent remarks to Scott further down
> the thread only reinforce my initial impression of his tone.
> Who was in here saying something about respect being easy to lose and
> hard to gain?
It helps that I happen to agree with him on this one.
> It could have been phrased more gracefully, I'll agree, but I don't
> see where you're reading "snobbishness" into this. And the whole point
> of asking was that someone else's five selections were probably not
> going to be yours. If I'd thought everyone was going to list the same
> five things I wouldn't have bothered to ask in the first place.
Oh, I don't think you meant to be snobbish.
But this smacks of every school marm I ever had telling me that unless
I had read whatever works were on their syllabus for the school year,
I would go through life unlettered, uncultured, and uneducated. And
that is, honestly, snobbish-- unless I conform to their narrow little
piece of paper, I'm not part of the Cultured Club.
I didn't like it then and I reject it now, and the phrasing was quite
similar.
David Loewe, Jr.
wrote:
>In article <3d20c8ed...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Leigh Butler wrote:
>>>And this
>>>once, I don't think he's been particularly obnoxious about it.
>> *shrug* His previous history disinclines me from giving him the
>> benefit of the doubt, and his subsequent remarks to Scott further down
>> the thread only reinforce my initial impression of his tone.
>> Who was in here saying something about respect being easy to lose and
>> hard to gain?
>
>It helps that I happen to agree with him on this one.
Heh...
This will be slightly tangential to the discussion above...
It may come as a shock to some people who read this NG, but not every
conflict herein is pre-meditated. An overwhelming percentage of the
things that have set off conflicts with me, for example, were lines I
thought were trivial at best. A nice example of a line I thought was
throwaway when typed would the start of the whole "real money" flap.
Hell, most times when I'm actually *looking* for negative responses,
it gets ignored.
Conversely, I don't *think* (I could be wrong about this) Chapman
meant to start a major conflagration with his "VC shit on US Army"
remark, but it sure as HELL stuck in my craw so badly that I couldn't
let it go by un-nuked.
And, no, I'm not going to answer your poll, Leigh. I have the same
problems with it that Novak has, but I am not as game as he is.
--
"You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas."
Eric Woolfson and Alan Parsons
Amy Yost
> In article
> <Pine.SGI.4.21.0206281...@theory.esm.rochester.edu>,
> Scott Spiegelberg <spi...@theory.esm.rochester.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Leigh Butler wrote:
> >
> > > Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> > > the following categories that you think one MUST
> > > see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> > > person:
> > >
> > > Books
> > > Art
> > > Music
> > > Film
> >
> > I'll start with my expertise: Beethoven's 9th symphony, Coltrane's "Giant
> > Steps," Wagner's Ring Cycle, The Beach Boys "Pet Sounds," and your pick of
> > over a millenium of known music. Baby's acting up, I'll have to wait with
> > the other groups.
>
> Beethoven's 9th?
>
> Erk.
>
> I much prefer 5th, 6th or Moonlight.
I love Beethoven 6. 5 and 9 are bigger, and "better" in some sense,
but 6 is friendly and comfortable, which Beethoven didn't do all that
often. Especially not in his symphonies.
--
Amy Yost (Cassandra) UIN: 49226347 fai...@yahoo.com
"Your ineptitude gives hope to all of us further down on the food chain."
- _Sam & Max Hit the Road_
Amy Yost
<snip>
> Most of them I'm already familiar with, but a few that people threw
> out I wasn't familiar with at all, so that's very cool. Stuff to take
> with me to the library.
>
> That's all I was looking for.
Well, something that you may not have heard of (although it gets a
footnote in _Bridge of Birds_):
Lin Yutang, _The Importance of Understanding_ - the best of two
thousand years of Chinese literature, as selected by the author in the
late 1960's. It's very cool, and presumably a decent crash course in
Chinese cultural literacy. Now you just have to find it...
Amy Yost
> In article <3d1caef6...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
> leigh_...@paramount.com says...
<>
> >Name at least one but not more than five pieces/examples of each of
> >the following categories that you think one MUST
> >see/read/hear/whatever in order to be called a culturally educated
> >person:
> >
> >Books
> Bible, Koran, the Vidas, etc.
> The Fountianhead - Ayn Rand
> Les Miserables?? - Victor Hugo
> the Federalist Papers
> Lord of the Rings
I don't think Ayn Rand has been influential enough to go on that list,
assuming "influential" is one of your criteria. It's like requiring
the Principia Discordia.
If you're just saying that people should read _The Fountainhead_ cause
it's one of the world's great books, that's a different argument.
Trent Goulding
>That's one of the basic problems with the question-- which culture?
>A lot of people have added Sun Tzu, as well, which despite the pop-war
>shelves, is not really part of Western cultural heritage. I could
>just as easily add _The Thirty Six Stratagems_ to be ridiculously
>obscure, since the only person I'm confident would have heard of it
>would be Trent.
>
>(I wouldn't be surprised if other people had, mind you, but Trent is
>the only one I'd be moderately surprised if he hadn't.)
Ouch. With a set-up like that, I feel just a bit doofy admitting
that I didn't recognize it, but in mitigation I will offer the
following: military treatises and their kin, however popular they
may have become in the modern West, weren't really an exalted part
of the canon in traditional Chinese literature. (I remember back in
the day, when I was tackling Sunzi Bingfa (aka Sun Tzu) just for
kicks, and I went to my classical Chinese professor with a couple of
questions. I started out by asking him, "what do you think of the
Sunzi?" "I dunno," he said, "I've never read it.").
If I were to pick out something literary from traditional Chinese
culture, Sunzi Bingfa (and his heirs and commentators, etc.) is
pretty low down on the list of stuff I'd choose, in spite of the
cachet it's picked up in recent years (don't get me wrong, it's got
some great aphorisms and all, but the best representative of Chinese
culture...nah.)
--
Trent Goulding trent.g...@mho.com
Booklog: http://home.mho.net/trent.goulding/books/blcurrent.html