>> Karl-Johan Noren wrote: >> > You could use one yourself, actually. Improper capitalisation, >> > misspellings (and _knowing_ you misspelled!), too long lines.
>> For crying out loud.. YOU GOT HIS POINT, DIDN'T YOU?! [snip] >My point is that Usenet is a medium using written text, >mostly in English, which reaches a lot of people. If you do >not care about spelling, or formatting your post correctly, >then it becomes harder for everyone else of us to read.
True.
>The choice is thus very simple: write coherently or get >ignored. I just point out the alternatives.
Not true. You do more than point out alternatives. You tell everyone on this group that 'this guy is a moron, he can't even spell right, lets ignore him!'. Not in so many words, but the feeling is quite clear, at least to me, even though I've never incurred your wrath (so far ;). Sure, point out if someone makes a mistake, education is good, but please, don't reply to a post _only_ to bitch about formatting or spelling or whatever. Netiquette can be taken too far. IMHO, of course. And yes, I know that this group takes netiquette more seriously than others, and that my perception of your (K-J Noren especially) posts might be too serious, but I don't think I'm the only one perceiving them as rather hard. (?)
>"Vad du ej klart kan säga, vet du ej; >med tanken ordet föds på mannens läppar; >det dunkelt sagda är det dunkelt tänkta."[1] > -- Esaias Tegner, 1820 [snip sig] > What you clearly cannot say, you do not know; > with thought the word is born on the lips of man; > the vaguely said is vaguely thought.
Very true. Does it apply to bad grammar? No. I doubt that's what Mr Tegner meant when he wrote that, and I hope that you don't think what it seems you're thinking[2]. Should the usenet then be reserved to those with impeccable treatment of the english language? Should people be refrained from speaking their minds only because they cannot use english as well as you, me(?) or anyone else? Face it, not everybody in the world has the high degree of education we have in Sweden, nor do all people have the desire to put very much effort into learning a second language. They might not have the time, nor the aptitude to do so, but that doesn't mean they might not have something to say. Or does it? As for Mr Tegner. He (IMHO) is talking about something along the line of: If you can't explain something satisfactory, then you probably don't understand it all that well either, and should consider thinking a bit before speaking. He is _not_ talking about unability to explain because of bad grammar or spelling.
Om jag forsoker forklara nagot for den har gruppen pa svenska, sa forstar de flesta ingenting. Gor det mig dum?[3]
Answer: Yes. Most people won't understand me, thus making the reason for my post invalid. But is the _content_ of my post neccesarily stupid?
Why ignore someone just because he has less than perfect grammar? All I'm saying is, people might have something to say evn if they cant spell rigt. If the person clearly shows that he has nothing to say or is stupid/crazy/whatever, sure, killfile him or better yet, educate him via e-mail. But _don't_ ignore him/her for _having bad grammar_. It just isn't fair.
As usual, these are MY opinions, and I'm not afraid of people disagreeing with me. Even if they thinks I'm using bad grammar.
/sven...@NOSPAMhem.passagen.se "we must be mad." "Nice day for it."
[2] It seems you are saying people who can't spell right or apply correct grammar to their posts are somewhat retarded (the vaguely said is the vaguely thought) and thus have no business posting to this ng or to any other for that matter.
[3] If I try to explain something to this group in swedish, most people won't understand a thing I'm saying. Does that make me stupid?
On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:02:42 GMT, afnev...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca
(Adam Nevraumont) wrote: >I didn't even notice the error in the word 'formatting' you made, I just >noticed the to-long line in your signature. So, unlike you, I wasn't being >facetious. Though, I could see how you might have misinterpreted me.
Yes, that is a problem. Unfortunately, I can't quite see where I should put breaks in my .sig so that it is formatted correctly. It is the one thing that Free Agent does not automaticallt wrap for me.
Perhaps you could tell me where I should break my .sig?
Anuj Goel "Procrastination is like a credit card; it's a lot of fun until you get the bill."
sven...@NOSPAM.hem.passagen.se (Rikard Svenman) wrote: > Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-n...@dsv.su.se> wrote: > >Rob J <rjar...@nospam.panam.edu> wrote: > >> Karl-Johan Noren wrote: > >> > You could use one yourself, actually. Improper capitalisation, > >> > misspellings (and _knowing_ you misspelled!), too long lines. > >> For crying out loud.. YOU GOT HIS POINT, DIDN'T YOU?! > [snip] > >My point is that Usenet is a medium using written text, > >mostly in English, which reaches a lot of people. If you do > >not care about spelling, or formatting your post correctly, > >then it becomes harder for everyone else of us to read. > True.
Glad you agrees on that.
> >The choice is thus very simple: write coherently or get > >ignored. I just point out the alternatives.
> Not true. You do more than point out alternatives. You tell everyone > on this group that 'this guy is a moron, he can't even spell right, > lets ignore him!'.
Yes, I tell him what he did wrong in public. But then he did post in public. The interpretation you do is yours, but I think you exaggerate a bit in it.
> Not in so many words, but the feeling is quite clear, at least to > me, even though I've never incurred your wrath (so far ;). Sure, > point out if someone makes a mistake, education is good, but please, > don't reply to a post _only_ to bitch about formatting or spelling > or whatever.
In this case it was actually Christopher Watts who started "bitching".
> Netiquette can be taken too far. IMHO, of course. And yes, I know that > this group takes netiquette more seriously than others, and that my > perception of your (K-J Noren especially) posts might be too serious, > but I don't think I'm the only one perceiving them as rather hard. (?)
You haven't read and participated here for very long, have you? The only reason we _can_ keep some order here is through _demanding_ decent grammar, attributions, properly formatted posts etc.
Compare this group to soc.culture.nordic (which currently has half the traffic of this one) or comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html.
> > What you clearly cannot say, you do not know; > > with thought the word is born on the lips of man; > > the vaguely said is vaguely thought.
> Very true. Does it apply to bad grammar? No. I doubt that's what Mr > Tegner meant when he wrote that, and I hope that you don't think what > it seems you're thinking[2].
Go back and check my posts to this thread. I haven't mentioned the word 'grammar' until this post.
[ snip putting words in my mouth ]
> As for Mr Tegner. He (IMHO) is talking about something along the > line of: If you can't explain something satisfactory, then you > probably don't understand it all that well either, and should consider > thinking a bit before speaking. He is _not_ talking about unability to > explain because of bad grammar or spelling.
Actually, grammar was never the issue here (at least for me). Check my original answer to Christopher Watts.
And Christopher didn't think very much before posting. Too long lines, didn't look up a word that he knew he misspelled, no capitalisation. That is more than making some simple grammar mistakes or misspellings, it's saying that he doesn't care about making his post readable at all!
-- Karl-Johan Norén (Noren with acute e) -- k-j-n...@dsv.su.se http://www.dsv.su.se/~k-j-nore/ - To believe people are as stupid as one believes is stupider than one can believe
: : Perhaps you could tell me where I should break my .sig? : : : Anuj Goel : "Procrastination is like a credit card; it's a lot of fun until you get the bill."
Perhaps you could break it like this:
"Procrastination is like a credit card; it's a lot of fun until you get the bill"
HTH.
-Jack
-- "Women. A mistake, or did He do it to us... ON PURPOSE?!?" -Jack Nicholson
>>I didn't even notice the error in the word 'formatting' you made, I just >>noticed the to-long line in your signature. So, unlike you, I wasn't being >>facetious. Though, I could see how you might have misinterpreted me.
>Yes, that is a problem. Unfortunately, I can't quite see where I >should put breaks in my .sig so that it is formatted correctly. It is >the one thing that Free Agent does not automaticallt wrap for me.
>Perhaps you could tell me where I should break my .sig?
I'd advise at the ; - it would look better. Otherwise, you could use my handy-dandy character count I gave you in the previous letter, and break at or before character 78 (76ish or less is better.)
Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-n...@dsv.su.se> wrote: >In <344683b2.7784...@nntpserver.swip.net>, >sven...@NOSPAM.hem.passagen.se (Rikard Svenman) wrote: [snip] >> Not true. You do more than point out alternatives. You tell everyone >> on this group that 'this guy is a moron, he can't even spell right, >> lets ignore him!'.
>Yes, I tell him what he did wrong in public. But then he did >post in public. The interpretation you do is yours, but I >think you exaggerate a bit in it.
Yes, I did. It's a rethorical thing, I suppose. Exaggerate to make your point clearer.
>In this case it was actually Christopher Watts who started >"bitching".
Roger that. And bitching was perhaps not the best choice of words. Bickering might be more like it, and I'm part of it, now. :)
>> Netiquette can be taken too far. IMHO, of course. And yes, I know that >> this group takes netiquette more seriously than others, and that my >> perception of your (K-J Noren especially) posts might be too serious, >> but I don't think I'm the only one perceiving them as rather hard. (?)
>You haven't read and participated here for very long, have >you? The only reason we _can_ keep some order here is >through _demanding_ decent grammar, attributions, properly >formatted posts etc.
I don't agree. The problem here (I think) is that we have different viewpoints. I look at the content of a post, rather than the language used in it. Sure, it's easier to read when the post is properly formatted, uses correct spelling, grammar, and so on, but what happens when we start complaining that someone ( a newbie, perhaps) isn't 'up to our standards'? The poor guy will (or might, anyways) never dare post another article. Why? Because he was dressed down for using bad language, never mind that the _contents_ of his post actually made sense. Someone using bad formatting, OTOH, is easily set straight, tell him/her the way it should be, and everything should be fine (people using HTML is a good example). And no, I haven't posted much, but I read the NG in periods. Right now I'm re-reading the entire series, and so I lurk to get new ideas and POVs.
>[ snip putting words in my mouth ]
I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. If it seemed that way, I apologize.
>Actually, grammar was never the issue here (at least for me). >Check my original answer to Christopher Watts.
I wasn't discussing this thread in particular, nor am I attacking you personally. I used you as an example as well as comment on your post. I should have made that clear in my original post.
>And Christopher didn't think very much before posting. Too >long lines, didn't look up a word that he knew he >misspelled, no capitalisation. That is more than making some >simple grammar mistakes or misspellings, it's saying that he >doesn't care about making his post readable at all!
Why? Did you have any problems understanding his post? I'm not counting having to read a word twice as problems, btw.
I'm not saying 'don't care about what you post', I'm just saying that we might be a bit more lenient on those not as used to english as we are... Hmm... This is beginning to sound very patronising, but honestly it isn't meant that way. Undoubtedly, I make quite a lot of mistakes as well, and I would like to find out about them. But I would be offended if someone completely ignored what I was trying to say but instead posted a reply complaining about my language or formatting, that could just as well be done via e-mail. Unless, of course, it's a common mistake, like HTML, in which it would serve a _purpose_ to tell it to the entire NG.
Question: Do you comment as much on these things right after a new book release? I assume traffic peaks after every new book. (?)
As usual, these are my opinions. Sharing of thoughts is good. IMO.
/sven...@NOSPAM.hem.passagen.se "We have no crime in this city after dark." "SWAT Team?" "Dragons."
>Alistair J. R. Young <avatar+use...@arkane.demon.co.uk> wrote in article ><c1.2b6.2Hwttv$...@esther.arkane.net>... >> On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:54:20 -0500, in message ><3443DBFC.7...@nospam.panam.edu>, >> Rob J <rjar...@nospam.panam.edu> praised Shub-Internet thus:
>> > If you understand what they said WHO CARES?! What do any >> > of the misspellings matter if you understand the actual post?!
>> Simple. Repeated badly formatted posts filled with misspellings lead >> the reader to conclude that the poster of the posts in question is a >> quote-fscking idiot-unquote. And with hundreds of posts per day, who >> has time to read one like that?
>> *Some* people like to try to point this out to people so they'll >> improve. Others, like me, just ignore them. Until someone decides to >> spout this 'lets-glorify-idiocy' rubbish that seems to form the basis >> of your argument, of course.
>> ::sigh:: I hate it when I encounter this argument more than once a >> day. So much for humanity. Bah!
>Impressive. It's not very often that I get the opportunity to be dazzled >by the utter and overwhelming arrogance of the self-absorbed. I really >appreciate the experience.
Honor to dazzle and all that.
We at Overwhelming Arrogant Bastards, Inc. endeavor to put forth a strong, unified and overwhelming product for the meek bleating masses. It's always nice to see our efforts appreciated.
Even if we don't give a fuck what all you pissants think.
> Rob J <rjar...@nospam.panam.edu> praised Shub-Internet thus: > > If you understand what they said WHO CARES?! What do any > > of the misspellings matter if you understand the actual post?!
> Simple. Repeated badly formatted posts filled with misspellings lead > the reader to conclude that the poster of the posts in question is a > quote-fscking idiot-unquote. And with hundreds of posts per day, who > has time to read one like that?
> *Some* people like to try to point this out to people so they'll > improve. Others, like me, just ignore them. Until someone decides to > spout this 'lets-glorify-idiocy' rubbish that seems to form the basis > of your argument, of course.
> ::sigh:: I hate it when I encounter this argument more than once a > day. So much for humanity. Bah!
Impressive. It's not very often that I get the opportunity to be dazzled by the utter and overwhelming arrogance of the self-absorbed. I really appreciate the experience.
On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:34:14 -0400, in message <62641j$...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>, "Ryan Reich" <rei...@stuy.edu> praised Shub-Internet thus:
> Get with it!
Not Quite ObNovak, But ObMe: Get with _what_, blast it?
Alistair
-- Alistair J. R. Young Computational Thaumaturge & Son of Ether. Arkane Systems Ltd. Sysimperator, dominus retis deusque machinarum. e-mail: ava...@arkane.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.arkane.demon.co.uk/ "No-one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." -- H L Mencken "No-one ever went broke underestimating their intelligence, either." -- Novak's extension.
: In <344ff292.39588...@news2.ibm.net>, : my fellow warder Steve <stev...@ibm.NOSPAM.net> wrote: : > ObMe: Fuck no.
: Suffering from Aes Sedai withdrawal, are you? Kate, maybe : you should ask Scottina to take care of Steve for a while?
I think I'll wait for a petition from the Warder in question, thanks...
: (No, it has nothing to do with that then I get Kate all for : myself while in London. Not at all. Nope. Totally honest. : Never been more sincere.)
Gack.
Kate
Life's incessant ceremonies leap everlasting, humans spring eternal on hope's breast, and frying pans without fires are often far between... --Roger Zelazny, _Sign of the Unicorn_
: On 18 Oct 1997 03:04:31 +0200, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-n...@dsv.su.se>
: wrote:
: >In <3452fc14.42022...@news2.ibm.net>, : >my fellow warder Steve <stev...@ibm.NOSPAM.net> wrote: : >> She got the Cuendillar chastity belt I sent her right before she left. : >> I know you'll be pleased to hear that...
: >Damn! : >Oh well, there's still oral and anal sex.
: <blank stare>
<glare> No, there isn't.
: >At least there's no (ObSauna:) saunas in London.
: I think that Ted Turner just donated $250 million worth of saunas to : our heat deprived cousins across the pond...
Not that it matters to me, since I have no intention of going anywhere near a sauna...
Kate
God gave man a penis and a brain, but only enough blood to use one at a time. --Robin Williams
On 19 Oct 1997 13:52:11 GMT, knep...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Kate Nepveu) wrote:
>Steve Monahan (stev...@ibm.NOSPAM.net) wrote: >: On 18 Oct 1997 03:04:31 +0200, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-n...@dsv.su.se> >: wrote: >: >In <3452fc14.42022...@news2.ibm.net>, >: >my fellow warder Steve <stev...@ibm.NOSPAM.net> wrote: >: >> She got the Cuendillar chastity belt I sent her right before she left. >: >> I know you'll be pleased to hear that...
>: >Damn! >: >Oh well, there's still oral and anal sex.
>: <blank stare>
><glare> No, there isn't.
Yeah!
What she said!
>: >At least there's no (ObSauna:) saunas in London.
>: I think that Ted Turner just donated $250 million worth of saunas to >: our heat deprived cousins across the pond...
>Not that it matters to me, since I have no intention of going anywhere >near a sauna...
A sauna is to K-J as a stedding is to Aes Sedai.
"Makes him itch."
--- Steve (Remove "NO SPAM" to reply)
"...and I will make it felony to drink small beer." [King Henry VI]
On 19 Oct 1997 13:44:50 GMT, knep...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Kate Nepveu) wrote:
>Karl-Johan Noren (k-j-n...@dsv.su.se) wrote: >: In <344ff292.39588...@news2.ibm.net>, >: my fellow warder Steve <stev...@ibm.NOSPAM.net> wrote: >: > ObMe: Fuck no.
>: Suffering from Aes Sedai withdrawal, are you? Kate, maybe >: you should ask Scottina to take care of Steve for a while?
>I think I'll wait for a petition from the Warder in question, thanks...
Your instincts are flawless...
>: (No, it has nothing to do with that then I get Kate all for >: myself while in London. Not at all. Nope. Totally honest. >: Never been more sincere.)
>Gack.
Indeed.
--- Steve (Remove NOSPAM to reply)
NAACP President Kweisi Mfume announced today that he is leaving the group to become head of Warner Brothers.
As part of the deal, he has agreed to change his name to Kweisi Wabbit.
WATTS Christopher <c9425...@alinga.newcastle.edu.au> wrote: >Karl-Johan Noren (k-j-n...@dsv.su.se) wrote: >: misspellings (and _knowing_ you misspelled!), too long lines.
>Well I left my dictionary with that kitchen sink I like to carry >around with me at uni.
Sorry, but that doesn't wash. Y'see, there are half a dozen or more dictionaries on-line. And since you're quite clearly online, you've got access.
Do get back to me when you're done making excuses for your laziness.
-- Michael Kozlowski m...@cs.wisc.edu Recommended SF (updated 10/21): http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~mlk/sfbooks.html "Ghost of Carl Sagan Warns Against Dangers of Superstition" -- The Onion
WATTS Christopher <c9425...@alinga.newcastle.edu.au> wrote:
: Now I have been off the NG's for a little while now, so forgive me if : I am rehashing old posts, but i feel I should defend myself here since : so few others are bothering to. Hmm.. "Bitching" as you say above that I : started this, is rather incorrect and I did refer back to the original : post to confirm this. If YOU looked back you would see that I responded : to your completely unnecessary FAQ pointer to a fellow that happened to : make a bad joke. My point was and still is that this legendary FAQ is not : some deity to which you can refer hapless fools who you disagree with for : any greivance you can think of, which seems to be becoming the case of : late.
Kiddo, not only has this allegation been discussed before, but it's been discussed _ad nauseum_.
However, once again, just for luck: It would be the height of folly to refer anyone to the WoT FAQ in such a fashion, because that selfsame FAQ proclaims, right up at the top, the following basic fact:
Please note that this document makes no claims as to the actual truth of any of the speculations in it. (Individual authors, on the other hand, do.) It exists to chronicle, in an organized fashion, the discussions on popular topics in the newsgroup. You should read it because it will give you an idea of what has been said before by many people. Chances are, if you want to know what people think about a given theory, it's in here. So, read before you post, it will help you make your post more interesting and persuasive. (If you simply ask a question in the FAQ, chances are that people will just refer you to this document, anyway, instead of discussing the same ol' stuff again.)
So, please don't post allegations of FAQ-worship, when someone posts a FAQ pointer that you happen to dislike. You'll succeed only in making yourself look rather silly.
-- Cheers, Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate r.a.sf.w.r-j. Rick Moen rick (at) hugin.imat.com
> Adam Nevraumont wrote in message ... > >In article <62paep$...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>, > >WATTS Christopher <c9425...@alinga.newcastle.edu.au> wrote: > >>Well I left my dictionary with that kitchen sink I like to carry > >>around with me at uni.
> Maybe you should try it yourself. Just what is favourate? Is that a new word > you made up? You've repeated this mistake in every post you've made. Then > you harp on other's spelling. sheesh.
> Ace
Well, "Ace", since Adam apparently went too fast for you, I'll try. English, which all of us former and current subjects of Their Royal Majesties theoretically speak, is cursed/blessed with many and sundry variations and colloquialisms ... sorry, forgot who I was writing to ... English Not Same All Places, Ugh! Hence, we have grey/gray, colour/color, sulpher/sulfer, etc. For people like me, who read a lot of British authors while young, this causes no end of trouble in school when it comes to spelling tests. One who think that you, as an Aussie, would be more aware of this. Derek
In article <34521FE6.1...@erols.com>, Derek Baker <bake...@erols.com> wrote:
>English, which all of us former and current subjects of Their Royal >Majesties theoretically speak
That should be "speaks." Collective singular, y'know.
> sorry, forgot who I was writing to ...
This should read "to whom I was writing." HTH.
>Hence, we have grey/gray, colour/color, sulpher/sulfer, etc. For people like >me, who read a lot of British authors while young, this causes no end >of trouble in school when it comes to spelling tests. >One who think that you, as an Aussie, would be more aware of this.
This has no impact whatsoever on whether some yammering jackass who consistently misspells "favourite" as "favourate" has any basis to criticize another's spelling. Perhaps if you actually *read* the post instead of hitting some "four word limit" and stopping?
-- -- "In fact, I think most Scottish cuisine is based on a dare."
In article <62sfq9$b5...@news.syd.fl.net.au>, Ace <nospam_...@fl.net.au> wrote:
>Adam Nevraumont wrote in message ... >>In article <62paep$...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>, >>WATTS Christopher <c9425...@alinga.newcastle.edu.au> wrote: >>>Well I left my dictionary with that kitchen sink I like to carry >>>around with me at uni.
>Maybe you should try it yourself. Just what is favourate? Is that a new word >you made up? You've repeated this mistake in every post you've made. Then >you harp on other's spelling. sheesh.
I repeat that I have never harped on another's spelling. That I can recall. Other than the 'Tim the Wheel' movie, and that incident with Anuj, but one was done because I was feeling silly, and the other one was done as my first Troll.
And, I have mentioned my horrible spelling skills in the past - about the only thing that keeps me half-way ledgible is 'spell', which doesn't work on Canadian spellings (I should gripe about that. . .). Normally I wouldn't make that mistake with such regularity, (my mispellings are erratic), but the above boo-boo is in my .signature, and has been there for about 3 years now. . .
Please, if you wish to respond to this message, attach it to the other thread where you made the same accusation, and I mentioned Canadian spelling. I don't want to have to repeat myself more than 3.1415 times. . . :)
I almost didn't bother to respond, but what the heck...
Ace wrote:
> >I was looking at the o/ou thing and overlooked the substitution of "a" for > "i" > >but in his defense, he wasn't the one doing the spelling criticism, it was > >actually Karl-Johan. Adam just suggested the use of a spell-checker since > >the original poster had left his dictionary at his university. > >As for my supposed "four word limit" - drop dead, you burke. HAND > >Derek
> That kind of makes your earlier post redundant then. Your whole argument was > based on that o/ou thing so it didn't really accomplish anything. By the
Redundant? Based on a false assumption, perhaps, but not redundant. Redundant is duplicating previous effort - as in your birth, since the world already has a surplus of obnoxious cretins - and there was nothing redundant about it.
> way, why did you write my name as "Ace" (with the punctuation) in your > earlier post? You don't think that is my real name, "Derek"? Well it is. Ace > Sanchez. I reckon it sounds a hell of a lot cooler than "Derek" anyway =).
It was in quotes because I was struck by the irony. The fact that it is the result of your parents misguided optimism makes it all the better!
> And it wasn't really a friendly suggestion. It was more like a sarcastic > "Try the spell command" like he was superior or something. And notice he
You're reading waaay to much into that. In all of the posts that Adam has made in the last few months, he has NEVER criticized anyone's spelling ability. On the contrary, he has frequently made light of his own spelling problems and referred to his need for the spell command. This _was_ a friendly suggestion, as can be shown by the fact that Chris Watts didn't see the need to take Adam to task. Now, Adam does take formatting errors to heart, and often corrects them, much like many members of this newsgroup.
> spells 'favourite' correctly now, thanks to me =). Oh yeah HAND too!
Certain to be your lasting contribution to this group. Aren't you proud? Having A Nice Day, Derek
