On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 13:45:04 +0100, pataphor <patap...
>> She didn't discover the One Power. She was "just" an Age of Legends
>> Aes Sedai. The One Power predates the Age of Legends by a significant
>> margin, at least if the Portal Stones and various other items are to
>> be trusted. They use the One Power.
>Maybe you're trying to imply that just because the One Power tech items
>predate the discovery of the True Power (if that is the Dark One's
>power) Lanfear could not have discovered them both.
Wow. Pretty sure Mierin Sedai didn't discover the One Power. There
were Ages predating the Age of Legends where the One Power was in use,
and Mierin was active in the Age of Legends. There's no suggestion
that she was old enough to have been alive in any of the Ages before
Although I suppose it's always possible.
>There are at least two different scenario's possible for Lanfear being
>involved in both discoveries:
>a) After discovering the One Power it didn't actually take that long to
>make the tech. Remember that even now we're in ever shortening
Okay, but I'm not seeing any evidence for the Age of Legends being the
Age in which the One Power was invented / discovered, the Aes Sedai
established, etc. I feel sure one or another of the Forsaken would
have snooted about it by now if it had.
>b) It did take some time to create the tech but people already lived for
>a very long time, so Lanfear could have discovered the One Power,
>happily lived with Lews for decades until he dumped her for Hyena
>(what's with that name anyway). After that she started her career again
>and discovered the True Power.
I can't quite express how dubious this is, but certainly possible.
>So maybe, if it wasn't for Hyena, Lanfear would still be in Lew's
>kitchen making him sandwiches and the world would have lived happily
>> Not angreals, certainly. Maybe they classify as ter'angreal, I don't
>Angreal, ter'angreal and I think there's more kinds. Maybe I should look
>this stuff up in the index.
Sa'angreal are the big ones, like super-angreal. Angreal and
sa'angreal increase the amount of the One Power you can use, while
ter'angreal do different stuff *with* the Power, either when channeled
into or just when used by anyone.
>> Right. So technology, running on a magical energy, is fine. You seemed
>> to be convinced of the purely explicable scientific origins of the One
>> Power itself, and I think that's a set-up for disappointment.
>The problem is science is a moving target. I mean there are whole social
>groups claiming to know the one truth when in fact they're only running
>some local cluster of neurons in their brain in a better way than most,
>while at the same time suppressing the other areas' activities.
None of which is anything to do with magic in a fantasy series. I
don't think you're going to get any evidence for the One Power having
a "scientific" basis in the final book, and there hasn't been any so
Of course, all these things can be argued the opposite way too.
There's no conclusive proof *against*.
>> Of course, this might set up the end of the world as they know it, and
>> bring about the beginning of the world as *we* know it, where magic
>> doesn't work at all. Wiccan nutbags and idiots who think they're
>> druids notwithstanding.
>Or maybe the world is a static collection of 'if'-crystals and we
>mistake a specific sequence through this collection for a dynamic
>activity. One could just move the impuls of the whole mental cluster of
>humanity and have it go in a different general direction.
Uh huh, what is an 'if'-crystal?
>I'm mentioning this because it would explain how the One Power could
>work. If you've read Zelazny's amber series, in there some personages
>can travel through alternative realities by changing elements of their
>surroundings one by one.
*nod* I recall.
>It's not hard to translate that kind of thing
>to airflows for example. Just travel to a reality in which the air goes
>more and more in the same direction.
Waiting for you to connect this to the One Power for me.
>Also, disruptive 'all at once'
>changes would be possible once the personages wake up to the facts about
>how the world works and start skipping the boilerplate.
...and you missed. Obviously too clever for me.
>Today I saw a Fringe episode in which a personage from another parallel
>world visit's her parallel 'twin' in 'this' world (we can't really take
>any world as central) because in her world her dad has just died. She is
>an autist and worries if her contact with her dad would have been better
>if she had been neurotypical. The girl in our world still has a living
>dad and is not autistic. She decides to lie to her 'twin' claiming that
>she has a bad relation with her dad too and it wouldn't have mattered if
>she was autistic because it was something with her dad. In reality, as
>the last scenes show, she has a wonderful dad who loves her and makes
>dinner for her in the kitchen. Also, earlier in the show there is a
>scene in which another person could just choose to identify someone from
>a parallel world with his lost son so he could be happy again.
You've lost me. I follow the anecdote, just not seeing the connection
to the Wheel of Time situation.
>So what could be wrong with that? In the first case no harm is done
>because the other girl will never know that her dad problem is because
>of her autism, in the other case the real son is dead so what harm could
>come from replacing him?
>But the problem is not at this level but at a higher level of
>explanation -- please bear with me, I know you dislike higher levels of
I don't dislike them, but this is starting to sound like an awful
load. If you'll pardon my saying so. Could you dumb it down a shade
for me? "Higher level of abstraction" is not the same as "phoney
over-complicated intellectual-speak without visible point."
>Some time ago I got into financial trouble because I had a different
>opinion about what is appropriate job seeking behaviour than the local
>Some people were involved in my case claiming it was
>just a 'choice' I made and if I did not consider the current job market
>to be totally corrupt (I mean in the sense of using CV's to select only
>new coworkers that don't rock the boat and who won't interfere with
>sitting personnel bleeding the companies and government dry for personal
>profit at the detriment of society) I would have been fine.
So your CV was a problem.
>Also, on the net I was involved in discussions with some prominent open
>source contributor who had been bought by Google and who now claimed
>assymmetric information was a good way of doing business and this in no
>way interfered with him being an elite example for the open source
I don't know what assymmetric information is, but okay, I'm on board.
>I could give more examples
Of *what*? Perception being reality?
Did I just sum it all up in three words there? Or am I completely
>but the thing is once one gives up the things
>one 'knows' to be true, in order to please someone else, and curiously,
>even if that someone else is another incarnation of yourself in the
>future or -- speculatively -- in a parallel world, one starts to move on
>a slippery slope. I mean, we could all be happy if we truly believed our
>dictator would be benevolent.
>So we need more Galads.
So Galad is representative of a personality type that is so solid in
its perception of reality, namely right and wrong, that he will not be
swayed by prevailing public opinion or political expediency, and thus
would make a good partner for Egwene?
But he could just as well be an advisor to her without being a lover
or husband. Gawyn also needs to go off and be Elayne's First Prince of
the Sword or whatever it was his duty to be, I imagine his role as
Egwene's Warder and husband will interfere with that as well. But then
Elayne's whole identity as Aes Sedai *and* Queen of Andor is
complicated, she's going to need to be in Andor. With Gawyn? Maybe.
It seems a moot point, unless after the Last Battle Galad sees that
the "right" thing to do now is dismiss the whole idea of Aes Sedai
being evil that the Whitecloaks hold so dear, and become Egwene's
advisor. Maybe Amadician Ambassador or something.
>It seems the dream Egwene had about the crumbling and rising towers was
>in a book I had not read, the last book currently available in fact,
>number 13, which I am now reading. I did mention I was in book 11 in my
Right, so there we go. But that did seem to be the dream you were
talking about. So you can imagine my confusion. Were you originally
talking about some other dream Egwene had with towers in?
>>> Not really. I just want to defend his right to leave alternative
>>> explanations on the table, even though his story sucks big time. Can't
>>> stand the guy, by the way.
>> Jordan, Sanderson, or Jackson?
>OK let's arrange them in order of increasingly more made up guys.
Thought I did that. Although then it should be "Sanderson, Jordan, or
Jackson", since Jordan is a pseudonym and Sanderson is, to the best of
my knowledge, not.
>Now take the last one.
You don't dig on giving straight answers, do you.
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