Jordan and demons
no_...@my-dejanews.com
those of demons in various religions.
1. Sammael-is the Prince of demons, a storm demon of remarkable strength
2. Be'lal-could be Belial, the Demon of lies
3. Shai'tan-Sheitan is a generic name for Demons
4. Masema-Mastema is the demon who urged god to test Abraham's faith
5. Asmodean-Asmodeus is one of the seven archdemons of persian origin
Fun huh?
/no_time
"Lost is relative. Found is absolute."
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Adam S Jasne
Jordan and demons by no_...@my-dejanews.com
hrmm... everyone mentions this as something that seems fairly tangental
to me. generic demons, Islamic demons, whatever. Shai'*** ;) always
stuck me as very similar to Satan... originally from the Old Hebrew,
meaning "adversary", IIRC.
-redEye
no_time
wrote:
Yes of course it is! But Satan is so obvious, isn't it?
****************************************
*"Lost is relative. Found is absolute!"*
****************************************
Angela Naff
This is not true! God did not test Abraham's faith
because of some demon. The only times in the Bible
God tested someone's faith b/c of some demonic
influence was in the book of Job, and that was Satan
himself asking God to let him (satan) have the say
with Job for some time. He said he could make Job
curse God if he lost everything. God gave him
permission. The only thing he was not allowed to do
was take Job's life. Job proved himself true to God
and stayed faithful.
The other example is in the New Testament.
Angela
*** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ***
no_time
Naff") wrote:
>Masema-Mastema is the demon who urged god to test
>Abraham's faith.
>
>This is not true! God did not test Abraham's faith
>because of some demon. The only times in the Bible
>God tested someone's faith b/c of some demonic
>influence was in the book of Job, and that was Satan
>himself asking God to let him (satan) have the say
>with Job for some time. He said he could make Job
>curse God if he lost everything. God gave him
>permission. The only thing he was not allowed to do
>was take Job's life. Job proved himself true to God
>and stayed faithful.
>The other example is in the New Testament.
>
>Angela
According to Jubilees, it was Mastema (not Sammael) who urged God to
test the piety of Abraham (as Satan did with Job) by demanding Isaac
as a sacrifice.
"Then Prince Mastema came and said before God: 'Abraham does indeed
love his son Isaac and finds him more pleasing than anyone else. Tell
him to offer him as a sacrifice on an altar. Than you will see whether
he performs this order and will know whether he is faithful in
everything through which you test him.'" - Jubilees 17:16
There more than one refrence to this you know.
***************************************************
/no_time
"Lost is relative. Found is absolute!"
***************************************************
Adam S Jasne
Jordan and demons by no_...@spring.se
>
well, i suppose it is... RASFWRJ has some kind of fascination with
finding deeper meanings than - perhaps - were intended. i suppose it
comes w/ the territory - tWoT. reminds me of an english prof i had
once...
-redEye
Richard M. Boye'
>
> I don't know if someone stated this before, but some names of the forsaken are
> those of demons in various religions.
Yep. Jordan loves to strew mytholigical references through his story.
Over in the FAQ, we've compiled tons of just such references and you
might enjoy having a look at them.
o The Wheel of Time FAQ maintained by Pam Korda can be found at :
http://hugin.imat.com/jordan/
[html version]
or
ftp://hugin.imat.com/pub/jordan/wot-cos.FAQ
[text version]
or
http://www.arkane.demon.co.uk/WheelOfTime/ [UK mirror site]
Happy Reading!
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/ UIN:9021244
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound."
Merddyn
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan: 15-Dec-98
>Jordan and demons by no_...@my-dejanews.com
>> 3. Shai'tan-Sheitan is a generic name for Demons
>
>
>hrmm... everyone mentions this as something that seems fairly tangental
>to me. generic demons, Islamic demons, whatever. Shai'*** ;) always
>stuck me as very similar to Satan... originally from the Old Hebrew,
>meaning "adversary", IIRC.
>
>
>-redEye
--
Merddyn
Mer...@usa.net
ICQ 1043256
A Warders Quest is to always seek
the truth in all things,
bring light to darkness,
joy to sorrow,
peace to strife
and strength to his bonder
Jay
<755749$mus$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I don't know if someone stated this before, but some names of the forsaken
are
>those of demons in various religions.
>
>
>2. Be'lal-could be Belial, the Demon of lies
>
>
>
>5. Asmodean-Asmodeus is one of the seven archdemons of persian origin
>
>Fun huh?
Rahvin- sounds exactly like Ravan, the evil 10-headed demon king from the
Indian Ramayan. I am sure that this is where RJ got the name from. The name
is well-known in Indian folklore, and they are pronounced the exact same
(Ravan=Rahvin). I'm surprised I remembered that..
This is getting to be a very productive thread : )
-Jay
A N Yanez
> Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan: 15-Dec-98
> Jordan and demons by no_...@my-dejanews.com
> > 3. Shai'tan-Sheitan is a generic name for Demons
>
> hrmm... everyone mentions this as something that seems fairly tangental
> to me. generic demons, Islamic demons, whatever. Shai'*** ;) always
> stuck me as very similar to Satan... originally from the Old Hebrew,
> meaning "adversary", IIRC.
>
> -redEye
Shaitan is the Arabic word for Satan. Remember, Arabic and Hebrew are
related--they're sister languages in the Semitic family. Words are often
very similar. However, the religious significance of both words and
characters are rather different.
Ha'Satan (lit. "the adversary") is an angel or spiritual being whose job
it is to act as a type of prosecuting attorney against humanity.
Adversary is meant in a legalistic sense. Ha'Satan is not evil, per se,
but rather acts to test humanity and, to a certain extent, God.
Shaitan (or "Iblis"--and doesn't that open another can of worms), on the
other hand, is chief of the djinn, the spirits made of fire that are
another race entirely. His "sin," IIRC, is that of refusing to bow in
homage to Adam when humanity was created by God. He refused to ignore the
law previously given by God ("thou shalt have no God besides me"), despite
that God was telling him to do so. This was out of personal pride (why
should he, Iblis, a creature made of fire and light, have to bow to
Adam, who was made from clay?) as well as certain attachment to the rules
that give him a certain cloak-of-right to make the argument. He got
punished for it and was then called Shaitan. IIRC, of course.
Satan, on the other hand, is another beast entirely. This is a Christian
theodicy, which explains the existence of evil. Evil exists and is
embodied in Satan, who is the greatest of the fallen angels. Prior to his
fall--caused by actually leading the revolt against God--Satan was known
as Samael (the meaning of which I forget, but has (like all Hebrew names
ending in el) something to do with God). He was the Lucifer, that is, the
Lightbearer, and the most beautiful of all creatures in the universe. His
physical personification is the Morning/Evening Star (Venus). Depending
on which interpretation of Christian text and doctrine you subsribe to, he
is the second-most powerful force in the universe (second only to God if
you hold Trinitarian beliefs) or the third-most (after God and Jesus, if
you believe them to be separate beings). In any case, not someone to
trifle with. He sows discord and forments hate, and is generally
interested in making your life a living hell. He continues his fight
against heaven and will do so until his (eventual) destruction.
The character of Satan is a conflation of many different sources--he's
come a long way from being the prosecuting attorney. His presence and
function changes Christianity from its monistic Jewish roots to a more
cosmopolitan and pagan dualistic flowering of various myths. (For
example, the Lucifer is a Graeco-Roman myth and the modern conception of a
horned Satan is a legacy of Catholic attempts to convert pagan Celtic
Europe.) This type of good/evil dualism can be traced back to many Middle
Eastern traditions, and runs fundamentally counter to Judaism's ideology
which was revolutionary in ancient times for its fierce monism.
Anyway, that's a rather long digression on why "shaitan" and "satan" are
really the same word and why commentary on Islamic "demons" isn't
tangential.
--Alberto, whose education affords him the wherewithal for discussions
like these but still might leave him asking, "Would you like fries with
that?"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"A true friend stabs you in the front." --Oscar Wilde
The Amorphous Mass
> no_...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > I don't know if someone stated this before, but some names of the
forsaken are
> > those of demons in various religions.
>
> Yep. Jordan loves to strew mytholigical references through his story.
> Over in the FAQ, we've compiled tons of just such references
Missed one, although from its placement it might be unintentional on
RJ's part.
Arafel is a Hebrew word that crops up frequently in the OT. It means
(roughly) "divine darkness," as in the lightless Holy of Holies in a
temple, or the black clouds that covered Moses when he received the
Commandments.
Gives new meaning to Alanna throwing one of her "Arafellin sulks,"
doesn't it? :-)
--
The Amorphous Mass
amo...@avalon.net
http://www.avalon.net/~amorph
A N Yanez
> A N Yanez <alb...@leland.Stanford.EDU> pondered for a while, then
> blurted out:
I _like_ that, btw.
> *snipping most of it to get to the part I want*
>
> >Shaitan (or "Iblis"--and doesn't that open another can of worms), on the
> >other hand, is chief of the djinn, the spirits made of fire that are
> >another race entirely. His "sin," IIRC,
>
> *snip rest*
>
> Iblis?
>
> As in Nai'blis or Na'iblis or whatever?
Nae'blis. Yes.
Alberto
A N Yanez
> >Samael (the meaning of which I forget, but has (like all Hebrew names
> >ending in el) something to do with God).
>
> The "el" means something along the lines of "in his divine light" or "of the
> divine light."
>
> -Alex Terzic
Actually, the "el" refers to God. It was also used as the name of a local
desert storm/wind god, IIRC, and becomes to be used as a name of God by
the ancient Hebrews. The actual fusion of the deity(ies) that became
known as "YHVH" in the process of culture-formation and nationalization is
complex and open to a LOT of debate.
Anyway, what I was saying is that I forget the meaning of the "Sama" part.
Also given the extreme flexibility of Hebrew and its amazing capacity (and
penchant) for puns, a full and subtle translation is often difficult. And
let's not discuss the habit of not writing in the vowels.
Aval, ani ohev ivrit. Ivrit safa yafa.
Raohlin
Laura M. Parkinson
blurted out:
*snipping most of it to get to the part I want*
>Shaitan (or "Iblis"--and doesn't that open another can of worms), on the
>other hand, is chief of the djinn, the spirits made of fire that are
>another race entirely. His "sin," IIRC,
*snip rest*
Iblis?
As in Nai'blis or Na'iblis or whatever?
-'-,-'-<<0 Trickster 0>>-'-,-'- lpark...@mindspring.com
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1327
VampCode Beta: PNlmpA23MrHnWc* VS\/^I\/^^\/^B\/^^WnRnH\/^ NR^\/^^\/^L\/^Oci
"Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be
destroyed." -Richard Adams, Watership Down
no_time
<alb...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
<snip>
>Shaitan (or "Iblis"--and doesn't that open another can of worms), on the
>other hand, is chief of the djinn, the spirits made of fire that are
>another race entirely. His "sin," IIRC, is that of refusing to bow in
>homage to Adam when humanity was created by God. He refused to ignore the
>law previously given by God ("thou shalt have no God besides me"), despite
>that God was telling him to do so. This was out of personal pride (why
>should he, Iblis, a creature made of fire and light, have to bow to
>Adam, who was made from clay?) as well as certain attachment to the rules
>that give him a certain cloak-of-right to make the argument. He got
>punished for it and was then called Shaitan. IIRC, of course.
>
Satan, Lucifer and the Devil was decided to be the same 'person' at
the church meeting in Nicea around 350 AC. I'm not 100% sure on this,
but I think it's correct.
>Satan, on the other hand, is another beast entirely. This is a Christian
>theodicy, which explains the existence of evil. Evil exists and is
>embodied in Satan, who is the greatest of the fallen angels. Prior to his
>fall--caused by actually leading the revolt against God--Satan was known
>as Samael (the meaning of which I forget, but has (like all Hebrew names
>ending in el) something to do with God).
His name is linked with Samiel and Simoon which are names for the
desert wind. This links him with djinns and Lucifer. According to some
legends Lucifer was created of the desert heat, the fire with no smoke
or flame and as you've said the Djinns were created out of fire.
<big snip>
John M. Atkinson
wrote:
>>Shaitan (or "Iblis"--and doesn't that open another can of worms), on the
>>other hand, is chief of the djinn, the spirits made of fire that are
>>another race entirely. His "sin," IIRC, is that of refusing to bow in
>>homage to Adam when humanity was created by God. He refused to ignore the
>>law previously given by God ("thou shalt have no God besides me"), despite
>>that God was telling him to do so. This was out of personal pride (why
>>should he, Iblis, a creature made of fire and light, have to bow to
>>Adam, who was made from clay?) as well as certain attachment to the rules
>>that give him a certain cloak-of-right to make the argument. He got
>>punished for it and was then called Shaitan. IIRC, of course.
>>
>
>Satan, Lucifer and the Devil was decided to be the same 'person' at
>the church meeting in Nicea around 350 AC. I'm not 100% sure on this,
>but I think it's correct.
Uhh. . . the First Ecumenical Council at Nicea in 325 AD is a
Christian thing, and this guy is citing Islamic theology. You're
comparing apples and oranges.
John M. Atkinson
nospam becomes erols to reply
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly. . .
it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as
FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
--Thomas Jefferson
Adam S Jasne
Lanfear just sounds kewl ;)
-redEye, which also sounds kewl
heehee...
man... i feel so childish... almost giddy.
ah well ;)
Adam S Jasne
> related--they're sister languages in the Semitic family. Words are often
> very similar. However, the religious significance of both words and
> characters are rather different.
<phew>
Yeah, I had some weak awareness of an Islamic parallel, but thank you
for explaining the differences in such detail. j/w - what religion are
you?
Heh... interesting descriptions, too. I was reminded at different times
of Paradise Lost (interesting imagery in there, and some very
interesting family trees... female (sin, IIRC) breaks out of satan's
skull during a secret meeting, they get it on, have a kid, this kid
(death, maybe?) rapes his mom and some dogs are created that keep
jumping in and out of her womb... what substances was Milton abusing, i
wonder? ;) ... and Gottlob Frege (I think it was him) who put such
stress on the morning/evening star thing...
I'm truly a tangental being.
-redEye
onei...@my-dejanews.com
> >Jordan and demons by no_...@my-dejanews.com
> >> 3. Shai'tan-Sheitan is a generic name for Demons
> >
> >
> >hrmm... everyone mentions this as something that seems fairly tangental
> >to me. generic demons, Islamic demons, whatever. Shai'*** ;) always
> >stuck me as very similar to Satan... originally from the Old Hebrew,
> >meaning "adversary", IIRC.
> >
> >
> >-redEye
LOL. It's ironic that "Lucifer" means "Lightbringer," and Lanfear means
"Daughter of the Night." Although I can see why RJ chose to name her
"Lanfear," and not "Lucy."
--
Steve G.
"They will pay," Lews Therin growled. "I am the Lord of the Morning."
A N Yanez
> Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan: 15-Dec-98 Re:
> Jordan and demons by A N Ya...@leland.Stanfor
> > Shaitan is the Arabic word for Satan. Remember, Arabic and Hebrew are
> > related--they're sister languages in the Semitic family. Words are often
> > very similar. However, the religious significance of both words and
> > characters are rather different.
>
>
> <phew>
> Yeah, I had some weak awareness of an Islamic parallel, but thank you
> for explaining the differences in such detail. j/w - what religion are
> you?
You're welcome. I'm Jewish, but I was born and raised Roman Catholic in a
traditional Mexican home in California's Central Valley. Also, I've
Jehovah's Witnesses, charismatic Pentacostals, and more-and-less lapsed
Catholics in the family bunch. Which all serve to make this time of year
rather interesting. My background comes in from not only growing up in my
particular family, but also as my field of study. I'm a Religious Studies
major at Stanford, specializing in comparative religions and religion and
society.
> Heh... interesting descriptions, too. I was reminded at different times
> of Paradise Lost (interesting imagery in there, and some very
> interesting family trees... female (sin, IIRC) breaks out of satan's
> skull during a secret meeting, they get it on, have a kid, this kid
> (death, maybe?) rapes his mom and some dogs are created that keep
> jumping in and out of her womb... what substances was Milton abusing, i
> wonder? ;) ... and Gottlob Frege (I think it was him) who put such
> stress on the morning/evening star thing...
Yup, Milton must have been on some serious shit. I love Paradise Lost,
though. Great book.
> I'm truly a tangental being.
To what?
Chris Kollmann
says...
> LOL. It's ironic that "Lucifer" means "Lightbringer," and Lanfear means
> "Daughter of the Night." Although I can see why RJ chose to name her
> "Lanfear," and not "Lucy."
Heh, my cat's name is Lucy. Short for Lucifer, of course. Also
affectionately (or not, in my Dad's case) called that little bitch or
that damn cat. She completely dominates the family, including the >90
pound dog. What a great cat.
--
Christopher S. Kollmann
Virology G1 HMS
quoteless
James London
>I don't know if someone stated this before, but some names of the forsaken are
>those of demons in various religions.
>
>1. Sammael-is the Prince of demons, a storm demon of remarkable strength
>
>2. Be'lal-could be Belial, the Demon of lies
>
>3. Shai'tan-Sheitan is a generic name for Demons
>
>4. Masema-Mastema is the demon who urged god to test Abraham's faith
>
>5. Asmodean-Asmodeus is one of the seven archdemons of persian origin
>
>Fun huh?
>
How about Ishy? I know we have Ishmael, Abraham's bastard son, who
(and I may be wrong) ended up being the father of the Arabic race, but
that hardly seems evil.
no_time
<alb...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>On 16 Dec 1998, Raohlin wrote:
>
>> >Samael (the meaning of which I forget, but has (like all Hebrew names
>> >ending in el) something to do with God).
>>
>> The "el" means something along the lines of "in his divine light" or "of the
>> divine light."
>>
>> -Alex Terzic
>
>Actually, the "el" refers to God. It was also used as the name of a local
>desert storm/wind god, IIRC, and becomes to be used as a name of God by
>the ancient Hebrews. The actual fusion of the deity(ies) that became
>known as "YHVH" in the process of culture-formation and nationalization is
>complex and open to a LOT of debate.
>
>Anyway, what I was saying is that I forget the meaning of the "Sama" part.
>Also given the extreme flexibility of Hebrew and its amazing capacity (and
>penchant) for puns, a full and subtle translation is often difficult. And
>let's not discuss the habit of not writing in the vowels.
>
>Aval, ani ohev ivrit. Ivrit safa yafa.
In this case the name seems to be connected to Samiel and Simoon wich
is names for the desert wind.
no_time
Atkinson) wrote:
>>>Shaitan (or "Iblis"--and doesn't that open another can of worms), on the
>>>other hand, is chief of the djinn, the spirits made of fire that are
>>>another race entirely. His "sin," IIRC, is that of refusing to bow in
>>>homage to Adam when humanity was created by God. He refused to ignore the
>>>law previously given by God ("thou shalt have no God besides me"), despite
>>>that God was telling him to do so. This was out of personal pride (why
>>>should he, Iblis, a creature made of fire and light, have to bow to
>>>Adam, who was made from clay?) as well as certain attachment to the rules
>>>that give him a certain cloak-of-right to make the argument. He got
>>>punished for it and was then called Shaitan. IIRC, of course.
>>>
>>
>>Satan, Lucifer and the Devil was decided to be the same 'person' at
>>the church meeting in Nicea around 350 AC. I'm not 100% sure on this,
>>but I think it's correct.
>
>Uhh. . . the First Ecumenical Council at Nicea in 325 AD is a
>Christian thing, and this guy is citing Islamic theology. You're
>comparing apples and oranges.
>
>
Yep, that's the good thing with an education. *whispers* You're
actually allowed to do this! Shhhh!
The thing is that the demons is 'adopted from all kinds of religion,
wich makes a hell of demon cocktail. Try to ask your local catholic
priest if the demonoly chronicles they have only have 'christian'
demons.
And we're actually discussing the origin of names together with some
religion, some metaphysics, some history and some myths and legend. So
I'll have my oranges and apples with a twist, please.
no_time
<alb...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
<snip>
>Shaitan (or "Iblis"--and doesn't that open another can of worms), on the
>other hand, is chief of the djinn, the spirits made of fire that are
>another race entirely. His "sin," IIRC, is that of refusing to bow in
>homage to Adam when humanity was created by God. He refused to ignore the
>law previously given by God ("thou shalt have no God besides me"), despite
>that God was telling him to do so. This was out of personal pride (why
>should he, Iblis, a creature made of fire and light, have to bow to
>Adam, who was made from clay?) as well as certain attachment to the rules
>that give him a certain cloak-of-right to make the argument. He got
>punished for it and was then called Shaitan. IIRC, of course.
>
>Satan, on the other hand, is another beast entirely. This is a Christian
>theodicy, which explains the existence of evil.
If my memory serves me, the Devil, Satan and Lucifer was decided to be
the same 'person' after the church meeting in Nicea around 350 AC. I'm
not sure though
>Evil exists and is
>embodied in Satan, who is the greatest of the fallen angels. Prior to his
>fall--caused by actually leading the revolt against God--Satan was known
>as Samael (the meaning of which I forget, but has (like all Hebrew names
>ending in el) something to do with God).
I've read somewhere that his name is linked to Samiel and Simoon wich
is names for the desert wind.
As you say the djinns were made of fire, but in a broad sense, like
Lucifer is said in some myths to been made of the desert fire, the
heat with no flame and no smoke.
Sammael is also, as is Lucifer, connected with Lilith. Sammeal and
Lilith made several breeds of demons, and Lucifer, acording to some
legends, did comfort himself with Lilith after him becoming an outcast
from heaven.
no_time
wrote:
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan: 15-Dec-98 Re:
>Jordan and demons by no_...@spring.se
>> Yes of course it is! But Satan is so obvious, isn't it?
>>
>
>
>well, i suppose it is... RASFWRJ has some kind of fascination with
>finding deeper meanings than - perhaps - were intended. i suppose it
>comes w/ the territory - tWoT. reminds me of an english prof i had
>once...
But it's so much fun!!!
no_time
<snip>
>Rahvin- sounds exactly like Ravan, the evil 10-headed demon king from the
>Indian Ramayan. I am sure that this is where RJ got the name from. The name
>is well-known in Indian folklore, and they are pronounced the exact same
>(Ravan=Rahvin). I'm surprised I remembered that..
>
I missed that one.
>This is getting to be a very productive thread : )
>
I agree!
no_time
wrote:
<snip my own rambling>
>How about Ishy? I know we have Ishmael, Abraham's bastard son, who
>(and I may be wrong) ended up being the father of the Arabic race, but
>that hardly seems evil.
>
I'll try and look it up!
Adam S Jasne
> the church meeting in Nicea around 350 AC. I'm not 100% sure on this,
> but I think it's correct.
hrmm... i may be off by 300 years or so, but wasn't that about the time
of the Great Schism?
-redEye
Adam S Jasne
> traditional Mexican home in California's Central Valley. Also, I've
> Jehovah's Witnesses, charismatic Pentacostals, and more-and-less lapsed
> Catholics in the family bunch. Which all serve to make this time of year
> rather interesting. My background comes in from not only growing up in my
> particular family, but also as my field of study. I'm a Religious Studies
> major at Stanford, specializing in comparative religions and religion and
> society.
Impressive, in its own way. Happy Kwanza ;)
j/w - what does a religious studies major go into after getting a degree?
> > I'm truly a tangental being.
>
> To what?
<shrug> It's just how my mind works. Or doesn't work, as one might
percieve it.
-redEye
John M. Atkinson
wrote:
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan: 16-Dec-98 Re:
>Jordan and demons by no_...@spring.se
>> Satan, Lucifer and the Devil was decided to be the same 'person' at
>> the church meeting in Nicea around 350 AC. I'm not 100% sure on this,
>> but I think it's correct.
>
>
>hrmm... i may be off by 300 years or so, but wasn't that about the time
>of the Great Schism?
Which one? The Monophysites split off a few years later, the Orthodox
and Catholic split 500 years later (about a 200 year seperation,
followed by divorce), and the Catholics split apart for a while even
later, but they got back together.
Dennis Higbee
: Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan: 16-Dec-98 Re:
: Jordan and demons by no_...@spring.se
: > Satan, Lucifer and the Devil was decided to be the same 'person' at
: > the church meeting in Nicea around 350 AC. I'm not 100% sure on this,
: > but I think it's correct.
: hrmm... i may be off by 300 years or so, but wasn't that about the time
: of the Great Schism?
Umm... the Great Schism was 1377-1417. You're off by over a
millenium. IIRC, the Nicean Council was called by Constantine I
in 323 in an effort to end the squabbles over doctrine that wracked
the early Church.
The Nicean Creed, which is said as part of the Catholic Mass, was
formulated at this Council.
--
Dennis Higbee | "Ain't it funny that they all fire the
bn...@li.net | pistol at the wrong end of the race."
http://www.li.net/~bnook/ | -P. Townshend
A N Yanez
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:07:17 -0800, A N Yanez
> <alb...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> >Shaitan (or "Iblis"--and doesn't that open another can of worms), on the
> >other hand, is chief of the djinn, the spirits made of fire that are
> >another race entirely. His "sin," IIRC, is that of refusing to bow in
> >homage to Adam when humanity was created by God. He refused to ignore the
> >law previously given by God ("thou shalt have no God besides me"), despite
> >that God was telling him to do so. This was out of personal pride (why
> >should he, Iblis, a creature made of fire and light, have to bow to
> >Adam, who was made from clay?) as well as certain attachment to the rules
> >that give him a certain cloak-of-right to make the argument. He got
> >punished for it and was then called Shaitan. IIRC, of course.
> >
> >Satan, on the other hand, is another beast entirely. This is a Christian
> >theodicy, which explains the existence of evil.
>
> If my memory serves me, the Devil, Satan and Lucifer was decided to be
> the same 'person' after the church meeting in Nicea around 350 AC. I'm
> not sure though
No, you're not, even after being corrected. Ecumenical Council of Nicaea,
325 AD (or CE--never AC--it's not a type of current, after all).
And I'm speaking of the *different* cosmologies of *different* religions
and peoples. They have similarities and are indeed related, but they are
NOT, I repeat *NOT* the same thing. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism
fundamentally differ. That is, they have different ideas as their basic a
priori assumptions. And each, of course, can display a remarkable
tendency to disregard the others' worldviews and ideologies.
Also, do not misunderstand or misuse the socio-historical and religious
phenomenon of conflation. It explains a lot of stuff, but not everything
and is most useful in terms of this discussion in dealing with the
Christian paradigm.
> >Evil exists and is
> >embodied in Satan, who is the greatest of the fallen angels. Prior to his
> >fall--caused by actually leading the revolt against God--Satan was known
> >as Samael (the meaning of which I forget, but has (like all Hebrew names
> >ending in el) something to do with God).
>
> I've read somewhere that his name is linked to Samiel and Simoon wich
> is names for the desert wind.
Nod. I don't doubt that. In a desert culture, sandstorms and winds are
often personified as spirits, both benign and evil. Additionally, the
idea that breath or wind is holy and/or supernatural is common throughout
the world. The Hebrew word for wind, "ruach," can also mean "spirit" or
"breath"--and the Latin "spiritus" (from which comes the English "spirit,"
"enspired," etc.) also means the same thing.
> As you say the djinns were made of fire, but in a broad sense, like
> Lucifer is said in some myths to been made of the desert fire, the
> heat with no flame and no smoke.
Sure.
> Sammael is also, as is Lucifer, connected with Lilith. Sammeal and
> Lilith made several breeds of demons, and Lucifer, acording to some
> legends, did comfort himself with Lilith after him becoming an outcast
> from heaven.
Well, Lilith (ha'lilit in Heb.) is a very interesting and complex
character. She's not only the Mother of Demons, and the Wind at Night,
but also was Adam's first wife, coeval and equal to him. Basically, she's
the female equivalent of Adam. They were "adamah"--which might best be
translated as "earth-creature" before being separated and becoming Adam
and Lilith. Anyway, yeah, there are traditions that she and Samael did
sport and breed. But what's this got to do with the discussion at hand?
A N Yanez
> Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan: 16-Dec-98 Re:
> Jordan and demons by A N Ya...@leland.Stanfor
> > You're welcome. I'm Jewish, but I was born and raised Roman Catholic in a
> > traditional Mexican home in California's Central Valley. Also, I've
> > Jehovah's Witnesses, charismatic Pentacostals, and more-and-less lapsed
> > Catholics in the family bunch. Which all serve to make this time of year
> > rather interesting. My background comes in from not only growing up in my
> > particular family, but also as my field of study. I'm a Religious Studies
> > major at Stanford, specializing in comparative religions and religion and
> > society.
>
> Impressive, in its own way. Happy Kwanza ;)
Thanks. And a festive Solstice to you. (I forgot to mention that I'm
also well-versed in Wicca and Neo-pagan spirituality.)
> j/w - what does a religious studies major go into after getting a degree?
As I said earlier, would you like fries with that burger? But seriously,
most of us go on to grad school, get PhDs and teach. That's not for me,
though. I figure working with a couple of private Jewish foundations or
perhaps the foreign service (if I'm so lucky as to pass the test). Maybe
go to rabbinical school in a few years. Currently I'm working at a
Silicon Valley research and development company (I took a quarter off
school).
> > > I'm truly a tangental being.
> >
> > To what?
>
> <shrug> It's just how my mind works. Or doesn't work, as one might
> percieve it.
I can accept that.
The Amorphous Mass
(Palin) wrote:
> Merddyn wrote:
>
> >OK, so where does Lanfear com from??
>
> I think I recall reading somewhere, possibly in a FAQ, that Lanfear possibly
> comes from L'Enfer (sp?) the French word for hell
Damn, and here I was thinking it was a phobia specific to IT techs
running Novell.
Palin
John M. Atkinson
wrote:
>The Nicean Creed, which is said as part of the Catholic Mass, was
>formulated at this Council.
Actually, the Creed recited at Roman Catholic Mass is not the creed of
323. "Et filioque" was added quite some time later.
Raohlin
<alb...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
<snip my stuff>
>
>Actually, the "el" refers to God. It was also used as the name of a local
>desert storm/wind god, IIRC, and becomes to be used as a name of God by
>the ancient Hebrews. The actual fusion of the deity(ies) that became
>known as "YHVH" in the process of culture-formation and nationalization is
>complex and open to a LOT of debate.
>
>Anyway, what I was saying is that I forget the meaning of the "Sama" part.
>Also given the extreme flexibility of Hebrew and its amazing capacity (and
>penchant) for puns, a full and subtle translation is often difficult. And
>let's not discuss the habit of not writing in the vowels.
>
>Aval, ani ohev ivrit. Ivrit safa yafa.
>In this case the name seems to be connected to Samiel and Simoon wich
>is names for the desert wind.
I had taken Sammael as meaing Sam "poison" with the additional "el" at the
end... From what I just read from some Qabbalist texts, Sammael was both a good
and an evil entity...
In the Talmud Yalkut he is Esau's guardian Angel, and in Sotah he is Edom's
princely guardian... IIRC It was Sammael who god sent to fetch the soul of
Moses at the time of his death... And:
"Revelation 12: <sammael> "that great serpent with twelve wings that draws out
after him, in his fall, the solar system.""
Which is a quote of a quote, so I'm not sure how far it's authenticity goes...
-Alex
Mark_Erikson
Adam S Jasne wrote in message ...
>Jordan and demons by no_...@spring.se
>> Yes of course it is! But Satan is so obvious, isn't it?
>>
>
>
>well, i suppose it is... RASFWRJ has some kind of fascination with
>finding deeper meanings than - perhaps - were intended. i suppose it
>comes w/ the territory - tWoT. reminds me of an english prof i had
>once...
It reminds me of every english teacher, literature critic and girl with an
annoying voice that I have ever met.
-Mark Erikson
asha...@geocities.com
'If you have any questions, stick 'em up your ass'
-Bob Cock
Mark_Erikson
A N Yanez wrote in message ...
>On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Adam S Jasne wrote:
>
>> Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan: 15-Dec-98
>> Jordan and demons by no_...@my-dejanews.com
>>
>> to me. generic demons, Islamic demons, whatever. Shai'*** ;) always
>> stuck me as very similar to Satan... originally from the Old Hebrew,
>> meaning "adversary", IIRC.
>>
>> -redEye
Brilliant. I have to ask, can you give me a few sources of information for
this kind of stuff? Of course the Bible, but trying to find information of
God, the hierachy of angels, the archangels and the Fall from Grace is
really a battle for someone who isn't entirely religious. Mainly the
Christian legends, but that djinn stuff is interesting. This Samael stuff
has intrigued me.
I've always been really interested in the fall of the angels, the archangels
and the end of the world.
Well, not always, but for a while now.
PS: Does anyone know what the seven virtues are?
Mark_Erikson
Raohlin wrote in message <19981218012721...@ng52.aol.com>...
Well, it's not authentic. That ain't from Revelation.
no_time
<alb...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
<snip>
>> If my memory serves me, the Devil, Satan and Lucifer was decided to be
>> the same 'person' after the church meeting in Nicea around 350 AC. I'm
>> not sure though
>
>No, you're not, even after being corrected. Ecumenical Council of Nicaea,
>325 AD (or CE--never AC--it's not a type of current, after all).
>
Oh but it is, in a way.
>And I'm speaking of the *different* cosmologies of *different* religions
>and peoples. They have similarities and are indeed related, but they are
>NOT, I repeat *NOT* the same thing. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism
>fundamentally differ. That is, they have different ideas as their basic a
>priori assumptions. And each, of course, can display a remarkable
>tendency to disregard the others' worldviews and ideologies.
>
>Also, do not misunderstand or misuse the socio-historical and religious
>phenomenon of conflation. It explains a lot of stuff, but not everything
>and is most useful in terms of this discussion in dealing with the
>Christian paradigm.
>
I've not studied religion in the University, but I'm not that dense.
We're discussing a lot of different religions, worldviews, litterature
when it comes to myths and legends, and several religious texts that
have alot in common and their origin isn't always that clear, so it
wouldn't suprise me if we will see some thing quite differently.
<snip again>
>> Sammael is also, as is Lucifer, connected with Lilith. Sammeal and
>> Lilith made several breeds of demons, and Lucifer, acording to some
>> legends, did comfort himself with Lilith after him becoming an outcast
>> from heaven.
>
>Well, Lilith (ha'lilit in Heb.) is a very interesting and complex
>character. She's not only the Mother of Demons, and the Wind at Night,
>but also was Adam's first wife, coeval and equal to him. Basically, she's
>the female equivalent of Adam. They were "adamah"--which might best be
>translated as "earth-creature" before being separated and becoming Adam
>and Lilith. Anyway, yeah, there are traditions that she and Samael did
>sport and breed. But what's this got to do with the discussion at hand?
>
Nothing I suppose, but I had something in mind when I wrote it and now
I dont have a clue what it was...sorry about that.
no_time
<snip>
>I had taken Sammael as meaing Sam "poison" with the additional "el" at the
>end... From what I just read from some Qabbalist texts, Sammael was both a good
>and an evil entity...
>In the Talmud Yalkut he is Esau's guardian Angel, and in Sotah he is Edom's
>princely guardian... IIRC It was Sammael who god sent to fetch the soul of
>Moses at the time of his death... And:
>
>"Revelation 12: <sammael> "that great serpent with twelve wings that draws out
>after him, in his fall, the solar system.""
>Which is a quote of a quote, so I'm not sure how far it's authenticity goes...
>
Yes it is true that Sammael is referred to as god's venom. It's says
to refer to the role of gods executioner of death senteces, which
would be the angel of death.
Sammael is represented as standing by a dying man with a drawn sword
in his handand a drop of gall on its tip. When the dying man sees him,
he is startled and opens his mouth. The drop of gall then falls into
his mouth and the man dies.
But according to this legend Sammael, in his death-angel
pesronification, remained one with god.
A N Yanez
> <snip mountains of information on Shai'***>
>
> Brilliant. I have to ask, can you give me a few sources of information for
> this kind of stuff? Of course the Bible, but trying to find information of
> God, the hierachy of angels, the archangels and the Fall from Grace is
> really a battle for someone who isn't entirely religious. Mainly the
> Christian legends, but that djinn stuff is interesting. This Samael stuff
> has intrigued me.
Actually, you'll want mostly non-canonical sources for most of this. The
actual Bible (whether Hebrew or Christian) doesn't have that much in the
way of this kind of info. Look at the Catholic Apocrypha and the
Talmuds--you'll find a lot more stuff there.
For Christian sources on this sort of thing, I'd look mainly into the
Catholic sources. There is a huge body of this kind of thing in Catholic
religious libraries, since the Catholic tradition is exactly that--more a
tradition of thought and ideas than a textual body (althoug there is a
TON of text) and that allows for "non-traditional" materials and practices
(can we say Liturgical Dance, anyone?) to be incorporated into the corpus
canonicus.
As for Islam, look into the Koran and the writings of the Sufis (the
mystical branch). I really don't know Islam and the Moslem sources well
enough to be of much more use in pointing you to where you should look.
> I've always been really interested in the fall of the angels, the archangels
> and the end of the world.
> Well, not always, but for a while now.
Well, in the West this is almost an exclusively Christian thing and there
mostly Pentacostal and related groups (in terms of relevance to doctrine
and practice) and Catholic (in terms of actual large-scale scholarship).
> PS: Does anyone know what the seven virtues are?
Somebody must, but not me.
Jack Watk
original man. The Ishamaelites produced the infamous Hashishim, a group of
zealots who got high before going into combat, or used to, until the rest of
the Muslim world wiped them out.
-Jack
johnjoh1
IIRC, the Hashishim were a group of assassins, rather than an army as
such. They controlled politics in the Moslem world for a few hundred
years from their mountain stronghold. Recruits would be brought to the
mountain, drugged, then taken to a secret garden, where there was a
harem of beautiful women (what other kind of women would you want in a
harem?*g*), and told that this was heaven, and a reward for those who
died as a result of their duties.
John Johnson "Cognito ergo sum--I think, therefore I am." Descartes
Kneem
A N Yanez <alb...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote in article
<Pine.GSO.3.96.98121...@myth10.Stanford.EDU>...
No but the 9 fruits of the spirit are: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering,
kindness,
goodness, faith, mildness, and self-control.
--
-Kneem
_______
Boursa: "You have access to the greatest source of knowledge in the
universe."
Doctor: "Well, I do talk to myself sometimes."
Tina Hall
The topic was:
_Re: Jordan and demons_
cskol...@erols.com (Chris Kollmann) wrote:
CK> onei...@my-dejanews.com says...
CK> > LOL. It's ironic that "Lucifer" means "Lightbringer," and
CK> > Lanfear means "Daughter of the Night." Although I can see why RJ
CK> > chose to name her "Lanfear," and not "Lucy."
CK>
CK> Heh, my cat's name is Lucy. Short for Lucifer, of course. Also
Heh, when I was 14 we also had a female cat named Luzi, short for Luzifer
(it's the same as Luci/Lucifer I guess, just in german). :)
CK> affectionately (or not, in my Dad's case) called that little bitch
CK> or that damn cat. She completely dominates the family, including
CK> the >90 pound dog. What a great cat.
:) Give her a hug (or whatever she prefers), will ya?. I love her without
ever meeting.
She reminds me of 'Mieza' (had no proper name), who made sure everyone
knew he was the boss. And doing as told ('go playing on the balcony' and
such, when he decided the flat was a racecourse, or that it was 'torture
the dog-time') was a gracious favor of him. :) The poor dog still has some
scars.
The cat would actually have wet his imaginary pants whenever outside of a
flat, but one time, when he was visiting us (*), you could actually almost
see him shrug and then walk away unconcerned, when Einstein (the cat
living with me) was at her best in being unfriendly to guests. The whole
incident was just cool. :)
(*) Sylvester, no one in the family wanted to leave either cat alone with
the all the noise of the fireworks at midnight. So my mother and her
boyfriend brought Mieza along...
--
Read You
Tina
Live is hard but unjust.
Danielle Mercier
main character, Samantha, a good witch, had a witch cousin named Serena, who
looked exactly like her but the hair color. Serena was dark and dangerous.
Not that wicked, but always ready for a prank.
My own cat was named after her for obvious reasons. For the first five
years, she was a little she-devil, but she mellowed with age. Now 13, she
is still mischievous, but we love her to death.
Thought I'd share this with you.
Danielle, a.k.a. Serena Sedai(!), Sitter for the Purple Ajah
"And here I am, completely surrounded with no beer"
Tina Hall wrote in message ...
Chris Kollmann
smi...@wb.fido.de says...
> Hello Chris Kollmann
Hi Tina!
> Heh, when I was 14 we also had a female cat named Luzi, short for Luzifer
> (it's the same as Luci/Lucifer I guess, just in german). :)
>
> CK> affectionately (or not, in my Dad's case) called that little bitch
> CK> or that damn cat. She completely dominates the family, including
> CK> the >90 pound dog. What a great cat.
>
> :) Give her a hug (or whatever she prefers), will ya?. I love her without
> ever meeting.
If you have fish, beef, or a major credit card, she may deign to be
scratched (or not, depending on Her Highness' pleasure). Or if you are
allergic, like one of my friends. Then she'll want to sleep on your
chest.
>
> She reminds me of 'Mieza' (had no proper name), who made sure everyone
> knew he was the boss. And doing as told ('go playing on the balcony' and
> such, when he decided the flat was a racecourse, or that it was 'torture
> the dog-time') was a gracious favor of him. :) The poor dog still has some
> scars.
>
> The cat would actually have wet his imaginary pants whenever outside of a
> flat, but one time, when he was visiting us (*), you could actually almost
> see him shrug and then walk away unconcerned, when Einstein (the cat
> living with me) was at her best in being unfriendly to guests. The whole
> incident was just cool. :)
Oh, Lucy has gradually expanded her sphere of dominance. She now visits
no less than three other houses, and bosses those families and their pets
around as well. I think the coolest thing she does is come with us when
we walk the dog. She comes streaking up from wherever she's been and
trails along behind us. But if we go more than two blocks, she stops and
starts arguing with us. It's quite obvious that she thinks we're too
stupid to wander far and that we're going to get lost. When we come
back, she's always waiting at the point where we left her, and we get an
earful about how foolish we were and how worried she was.
Cheers,
Chris
--
Christopher S. Kollmann
Virology G1 HMS
quoteless
Mad Hamish
<ser...@globetrotter.net> wrote:
>Remember "Bewitched"? If you're not at least 30, you won't.
Hey, I'm only 25 and I remember it.
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_l...@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_l...@tassie.net.au
Palin
on Tue, Jan 5, 1999 17:44 EST _la...@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Mad Hamish) wrote:
>On Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:07:12 -0500, "Danielle Mercier"
><ser...@globetrotter.net> wrote:
>
>>Remember "Bewitched"? If you're not at least 30, you won't.
>
>Hey, I'm only 25 and I remember it.
I am only 16, and thanks to syndication (specifically Nick at Nite) I
remember it
u43jb
: On Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:07:12 -0500, "Danielle Mercier"
: <ser...@globetrotter.net> wrote:
: >Remember "Bewitched"? If you're not at least 30, you won't.
: Hey, I'm only 25 and I remember it.
Every student worth his salt know Bewitched. It is on just before Judge Joe
Brown, on Channel 4 at lunchtime. It used to be I dream of Jeannie, but they
swapped.
*bunnyTshens*
: on Tue, Jan 5, 1999 17:44 EST _la...@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Mad Hamish) wrote:
: >On Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:07:12 -0500, "Danielle Mercier"<ser...@globetrotter.net> wrote:
: >>Remember "Bewitched"? If you're not at least 30, you won't.
: >Hey, I'm only 25 and I remember it.
: I am only 16, and thanks to syndication (specifically Nick at Nite) I
: remember it
I am only the concept of a potentiality of an embryo, but due to my
interconnections to the philote web, I remember it. [1]
--Tshen
Qodaxti Institute, 87th stratum
[1] In fact I can even tell Dick York from Dick Sergeant. [2]
[2] And for that matter I can tell both of them from Sergeant York or
Dick-Dick. [3]
[3] But I keep getting Michael York confused with Mr. Jagger's winkie [4].
[4] Mick-Dick.
Mooselord Volus
>I am only 16, and thanks to syndication (specifically Nick at Nite) I
>remember it
I used to be a Nick'at'Nite addict. That was back when they did all the
older stuff, like Get Smart and F-Troop. Now they're playing all this 10-15
year old crap. _Welcome Back Kotter_? The HELL that belongs on Nick'at'Nite!
I say, unless a show has at least one episode filmed in B&W, it's _NOT_ our
TV heritage, ya know? Err, with the single exception of Mork and Mindy,
which did kick enough arse to be on N'n'N...
Anyway, just my $0.17 (inflation's a bitch, huh?)
Mooselord Volus, the Shadow Behind the Light
Tina Hall
The topic was:
_Re: Jordan and demons_
cskol...@erols.com (Chris Kollmann) wrote:
CK> In article <MSGID_242=3A5000=2F20.35=40fidonet...@Fido.DE>,
CK> smi...@wb.fido.de says...
CK> > CK> affectionately (or not, in my Dad's case) called that little
CK> > CK> bitch or that damn cat. She completely dominates the family,
CK> > CK> including the >90 pound dog. What a great cat.
CK> >
CK> > :) Give her a hug (or whatever she prefers), will ya?. I love her
CK> > without ever meeting.
CK>
CK> If you have fish, beef, or a major credit card, she may deign to be
Sorry, can't help with that. I've got some cat 'sweets' [*], though.
Einstein and the cat's of a friend do like them a lot
CK> scratched (or not, depending on Her Highness' pleasure). Or if you
CK> are allergic, like one of my friends. Then she'll want to sleep on
CK> your chest.
Unfortunately (in this case only) I'm not allergic.
[*] I don't know the right word. It's really only cat food in the shape of
little balls, like marbles. And it does seem to taste better than ordinary
dry food.
[snip Mieza]
CK> Oh, Lucy has gradually expanded her sphere of dominance. She now
CK> visits no less than three other houses, and bosses those families
CK> and their pets around as well. I think the coolest thing she does
CK> is come with us when we walk the dog. She comes streaking up from
CK> wherever she's been and trails along behind us. But if we go more
CK> than two blocks, she stops and starts arguing with us. It's quite
CK> obvious that she thinks we're too stupid to wander far and that
CK> we're going to get lost. When we come back, she's always waiting
CK> at the point where we left her, and we get an earful about how
CK> foolish we were and how worried she was.
_grin_ That's just sooo lovely.
I would really enjoy reading about yor Lucy all day. :)
Tiger, the first cat to share my grandma's house with my grandma and me,
always walked me to school, and then later to the bus station. Usually
picked me up at the right time too.
--
Read You
Tina
Life is hard but unjust.
Samuel Kleiner
> I am only the concept of a potentiality of an embryo, but due to my
> interconnections to the philote web, I remember it. [1]
You fly aircraft?
--
Samuel Kleiner Everybody knows that dragons don't exist.
But while this simplistic formulation may satisfy the layman,
it does not suffice for the scientific mind. -Stanislav Lem
Chris Kollmann
> _grin_ That's just sooo lovely.
>
> I would really enjoy reading about yor Lucy all day. :)
I'll let her know about her new admirer the next time I see her.
> Tiger, the first cat to share my grandma's house with my grandma and me,
> always walked me to school, and then later to the bus station. Usually
> picked me up at the right time too.
Having a great cat like that is one of life's best pleasures.
Tina Hall
The topic was:
_Re: Jordan and demons_
cskol...@erols.com (Chris Kollmann) wrote:
CK> In article <MSGID_242=3A5000=2F20.35=40fidonet...@Fido.DE>,
CK> smi...@wb.fido.de says...
CK> snip about my cat
[snip some more]
CK> > Tiger, the first cat to share my grandma's house with my grandma
CK> > and me, always walked me to school, and then later to the bus
CK> > station. Usually picked me up at the right time too.
CK>
CK> Having a great cat like that is one of life's best pleasures.
:) Yes. But one that only complains when the food is not served instantly,
sleeps most of the day and growls at oneself and visitors can also be a
pleasure to have around. With every little bit of increasing friendlyness
from her. :)
You know, when Einstein recently started actually jumping on my lap and
laying down, my friend said something is wrong, probably the cat's ill or
exchanged or something. :) It is actually a 180 degree turnaround to what
she's been like when we got her 6 years ago. But with patience it got
better, if only very slowly. She wouldn't have anybody touch her or even
come near her, back then. Only come out of hiding at night to get some
food and visit the bathroom. But she already was about 5 years old then,
and has had a hard time before...
Now, by her own standards, she's the most friendly cat possible. If still
sometimes frightening. ;)
tsbr...@gmail.com
> I don't know if someone stated this before, but some names of the forsaken are
> those of demons in various religions.
>
> 1. Sammael-is the Prince of demons, a storm demon of remarkable strength
>
> 2. Be'lal-could be Belial, the Demon of lies
> 3. Shai'tan-Sheitan is a generic name for Demons
>
> 4. Masema-Mastema is the demon who urged god to test Abraham's faith
I thought that Masema was the Prophet of the Dragon Reborn, not a Forsaken!
>
> 5. Asmodean-Asmodeus is one of the seven archdemons of persian origin
Chucky @ Work
>On Tuesday, December 15, 1998 12:00:00 AM UTC-8, no_...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> I don't know if someone stated this before, but some names of the forsaken are
>> those of demons in various religions.
>>
>> 1. Sammael-is the Prince of demons, a storm demon of remarkable strength
>>
>> 2. Be'lal-could be Belial, the Demon of lies
>>
>> 3. Shai'tan-Sheitan is a generic name for Demons
>
>It also looks like a corruption of the name "Satan".
>> 4. Masema-Mastema is the demon who urged god to test Abraham's faith
>
>I thought that Masema was the Prophet of the Dragon Reborn, not a Forsaken!
>>
>> 5. Asmodean-Asmodeus is one of the seven archdemons of persian origin
C@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/