Continuum Season 1 Finale (SPOILERS)

[KalElFan]

SPOILER warning in the thread title.

About six weeks ago, after episode 5, I wrote this:

" ... I think the Continuum Logo... is the answer. The "O" is
duplicated, overlapping in order to represent two timelines
or universes or mirror universes methinks. This episode 5
has almost certainly established that, but conceivably the
"O" is intending to depict only small, and/or perhaps even
reversible changes between the two..."

I went on to note the other possibility of major changes,
but I think tonight's season 1 finale very strongly suggests
that Future Alec ruled that out. His "pebble becomes a
tsunami" analogy (relayed by Kagame) suggests his plan
is very gradual change, which by 2077 (2012 + 65) he
hopes will result in a better future.

So, if the show continues, I think the series will basically
become a clean slate with a somewhat different premise.
There's been the minimum required time "loop" as Future
Alec perceived or recalled it, and he may also have left
other bread crumbs for his younger self. But basically
it'll be up to Keira & Carlos & Young Alec & Co. to now
start nudging history along a different path. Since the
CSIS agent saw Keira and Young Alec survive, and then
saw Keira disappear, it's conceivable that Carlos and
others may learn she is indeed from the future (her suit
can prove it) and so are the remaining terrorists.

The "other ways to sacrifice" wisdom that Kagami had
mentioned to Alec's stepbrother (whom we also saw
the older version of) is consistent with the above. Old
Alec's plan could be interpreted as a "sacrifice" killing
billions, i.e. everyone in the old timeline including Keira's
husband and kid. But none of them would ever know
they even existed in that Possible Interpretation, with
the exception of those who have gone back, i.e. Keira,
the terrorists still alive (who were in favor of burning it
all down anyway) and the nutcase. So really only Keira
will have experienced any loss or awareness of loss,
and Old Alec perhaps but he's gone and Young Alec
gets to follow a new path.

From a writing perspective it would still arguably make
Old Alec a monster with a God complex, but even there
it could be addressed by him having learned there are
Other Possible Interpretations. For example, perhaps
the Old Timeline will still exist it's just unreachable, or
perhaps he used time tech to establish that his Earth
or humanity was about to destroy itself anyway. If so,
the "sacrifice" would have been imminent anyway and
so it was easier to take the action he did.

There's also the fact that Old Alec recalls Keira had
travelled back, and so he factually knew his Old
Timeline would be kaput if he didn't engineer her
doing that. His only play, as he saw it, was to try to
prepare his younger self and others to make the right
changes for v2 of the timeline. Having the loose
cannon terrorist killed is a right change. (Also, I've
noticed the actor is cast in Arrow, and so is the
actor playing the police captain, at least in the pilot,
so maybe CSIS guy will replace the latter).

The story they tell in a Season 2 and beyond, if they
get one, could involve Old Kagami and Old Alec in
what are now historical flashbacks from our viewer
perspective. That future is in a sense now history
from Keira's POV, and her POV is the main one for
the viewership. She presumably comes to accept
her loss and her future is now a "Keira Cameron
2012-????" proposition in a new unwritten timeline
version 2. She'll need a Section 6 birth certificate
from 1985 or whenever, depending on her age. :-)

I quite like this setup for Season 2 and beyond and
it'd be a shame not to see it continue. The creative
scope of the story is pretty much unlimited and I
think the key characters have been well established
now in season one. Keira and Young Alec are the
two most important roles I think, followed by Carlos
and Kellog. Alec's stepbrother may not be because
he could stay in jail. The new CSIS agent role looks
promising. Lexa Doig's character could also work
well. Alec's mom and other supporting roles like
the cop lady/researcher would also work.

[Ashley Johnson]

On Aug 6, 3:32 am, "KalElFan" <kalel...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
> SPOILER warning in the thread title.
>

> Having the loose cannon terrorist killed is a right change.

We saw Sonia point the gun at him, but it cut to Kiera moving a heavy
metal gate at the same time as there was a "bang". I think they left
it deliberately ambiguous as to whether Sonia pulled the trigger, or
is just using the gun to threaten Lucas and make sure he acknowledges
that she's the new boss.

[KalElFan]

"Ashley Johnson" wrote in message
news:febca83b-6e47-4b4b...@k21g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...

Obviously that's possible until we see it proven otherwise in a
season 2 premiere, but I think it makes more sense that she did
pull the trigger. She seemed to worship Kagame and followed
the instructions he gave her, and as or more importantly Travis
isn't the kind of character you can threaten. If she didn't kill him
she'd be dead herself, if not then and there after a few eps.

Mainly, I think it makes sense creatively. Travis had become a
one-note power-hungry lunatic killer type, and they already have
the blonde terrorist babe close to that. They've established, I
think, that Old Alec is trying to improve the timeline. He saw
Kagame as sane and salvageable enough to use as a "sacrifice"
to that end, but as with Kagame I think Old Alec would have
realized that Travis needed to go.

Checking IMDb and The CW site, neither of the actors playing
Travis and the police captain seem to be regulars in Arrow.
They could be recurring though, as they were effectively in
Continuum Season 1 (7 and 8 eps respectively). Both Arrow
and Continuum are shot in Vancouver, so presumably they
could do both if whichever show had/has them in first position
agreed.

[Jeremy]

On Mon, 6 Aug 2012 11:08:43 -0400, "KalElFan"
<kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:

>"Ashley Johnson" wrote in message

>> On Aug 6, 3:32 am, "KalElFan" <kalel...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> SPOILER warning in the thread title.
>>>
>>> Having the loose cannon terrorist killed is a right change.
>>
>> We saw Sonia point the gun at him, but it cut to Kiera moving a
>> heavy metal gate at the same time as there was a "bang". I think
>> they left it deliberately ambiguous as to whether Sonia pulled the
>> trigger, or is just using the gun to threaten Lucas and make sure
>> he acknowledges that she's the new boss.
>
>Obviously that's possible until we see it proven otherwise in a
>season 2 premiere, but I think it makes more sense that she did
>pull the trigger. She seemed to worship Kagame and followed
>the instructions he gave her, and as or more importantly Travis
>isn't the kind of character you can threaten. If she didn't kill him
>she'd be dead herself, if not then and there after a few eps.

Then perhaps she should talk less and shoot more <g>. (Rule #7 of the
Evil Overlord list.)

[anim8rFSK]

In article <juv1285u9gae1dq2p...@4ax.com>,

I hope she pulled the trigger; then we should get more Lexa next (?)
season.

--
"Every time a Kardashian gets a TV show, an angel dies."

[David Barnett]

In article <anim8rfsk-5C3F13.07381307082012
@news.easynews.com>, anim...@cox.net says...

I concur.

--
David Barnett

[anim8rFSK]

In article <MPG.2a8c2e5c5...@news.bigpond.com>,

One big question here ... how long was she ON that boat sleeping with
the enemy? She went there as they were taking her grievously wounded
partner to the hospital, and only left because she got a call from him
saying he was back on the job, that the doctor had cleared him for
active duty the day before. I'm saying she must have been on the boat
for WEEKS.

Also, after Master Braytak blew himself up on the 14th floor, why did
the lobby spontaneously combust?

And computer nerd guy has the toughest pajama strings (and teeth) in the
known universe ...

Excellent casting on future jerk step brother (and a clear cut case for
capital punishment).

[KalElFan]

"Jeremy" wrote in message
news:juv1285u9gae1dq2p...@4ax.com...

They wanted the line to let viewers know that Kagame had told
Sonya to do it.

On Young Alec surviving (one of Anim8r's nits), the invisibility
shield on Keira's suit must have also acted as a shield against
the blast. On another of his points, Keira was with Kellog just
the one night and it was to get that piece of future tech that he
stole from her back. Carlos coming back so quick (and they did
have Keira express surprise at that) is just TV sometimes. :-)

Another one not mentioned yet (that I've seen) is why Keira
wouldn't have known of the 2012 attack long before this last
episode when she finally seemed to recall it. Would anyone
today remember details of some event from 1937 that killed
a thousand people? In 2077, an event from 2012 might be
even more trivial, historically, if so much else apocalyptic
had been happening as depicted in the premiere.

Beyond that, nitpicks will never really stick anyway because
Old Alec and/or some Future Agent and/or destiny or the like
could be pulling strings or act as an explanation. For example...

Younger Alec may find that Old Alec also sent back embedded
historical records. Those could show a newspaper with a story,
date, etc. showing one thing happening when something much
different happens in Young Alec's timeline. That would prove
to Young Alec that they're in a new timeline now and that it is
possible to make changes. Whether Travis lives or dies could
even be an example of that. In the original Timeline v1 that
Old Alec and Keira were from, maybe one reason it turned to
crap was because Travis did things to make it much worse.

[AC]

That I put down to something JMS said about how fast Whitestars could
go. Speed of plot he said!!!!! Heh, fair enough. Its honest at least.

>
> Another one not mentioned yet (that I've seen) is why Keira
> wouldn't have known of the 2012 attack long before this last
> episode when she finally seemed to recall it. Would anyone
> today remember details of some event from 1937 that killed
> a thousand people? In 2077, an event from 2012 might be
> even more trivial, historically, if so much else apocalyptic
> had been happening as depicted in the premiere.

Was the significance of the 2012 attack generally known in 2077? It
seems to be that only a select few knew.

>
> Beyond that, nitpicks will never really stick anyway because
> Old Alec and/or some Future Agent and/or destiny or the like
> could be pulling strings or act as an explanation. For example...
>
> Younger Alec may find that Old Alec also sent back embedded
> historical records. Those could show a newspaper with a story,
> date, etc. showing one thing happening when something much
> different happens in Young Alec's timeline. That would prove
> to Young Alec that they're in a new timeline now and that it is
> possible to make changes. Whether Travis lives or dies could
> even be an example of that. In the original Timeline v1 that
> Old Alec and Keira were from, maybe one reason it turned to
> crap was because Travis did things to make it much worse.

When you have time travel as a central plank, almost anything goes.
Writers just have to be careful about over doing it.

Thing to remember with this show is that we obviously have no idea what
S2 might hold. So, I reckon its right to hold fire and see what happens
if S2 happens.

--
AC

[AC]

Yeah, it should be weeks, but I think we are giving them a pass on that
one!! Although it does make me worry that there is a bit of making it up
as they go along happening. Or, perhaps Some thing external happened
like they expected a few more eps and got cut short in some weirdo TV
exec way.

>
> Also, after Master Braytak blew himself up on the 14th floor, why did
> the lobby spontaneously combust?

Hmmm, there was a bit of a time gap there, but yes, iffy, but not crucial.

>
> And computer nerd guy has the toughest pajama strings (and teeth) in the
> known universe ...

Same as the explosion, no? Iffy, but OK enough. I was equally surprised
he got out of the house so easily.

>
> Excellent casting on future jerk step brother (and a clear cut case for
> capital punishment).
>

Yeah, he is an evil shitty looking kid. Definitely slap-able.

--
AC

[Jeremy]

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 07:38:13 -0700, anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net>
wrote:

I hope there's a next season, no news of renewal so far? I really
surprised myself by enjoying this series as much as I have. Of course
Lexa Doig helped, heh.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <cq6628hp0su375nfo...@4ax.com>,

Lexa Doig *always* helps!

From Wiki:

Season 2
Season two is currently in talks. TVEquals.com reports that main
characters Rachel Nichols and Victor Webster want to do a second
season.[citation needed] SpoilerTV.com reports that the cast will be at
FanExpo August 23-26 at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre to promote
the second season.

[jess stone]

On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 23:32:43 -0400, "KalElFan"
<kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:

>SPOILER warning in the thread title.
>
>About six weeks ago, after episode 5, I wrote this:
>
> " ... I think the Continuum Logo... is the answer. The "O" is

big snip

You and I are looking at this show quite differently.
"Fire bad. Rachel Nichols pretty."

[KalElFan]

"anim8rFSK" wrote in message
news:anim8rfsk-7C287...@news.easynews.com...

> From Wiki:
>
> Season 2
> Season two is currently in talks. TVEquals.com reports that
> main characters Rachel Nichols and Victor Webster want to
> do a second season.[citation needed]

Wiki "editor" attempts to support everything are funny
sometimes. I have no idea what "TVEquals.com" is but the
Wiki contributor did cite it in the sentence. :-) Anyway for
those interested there are Twitter accounts for most if not
all of the players. Here are a couple of tweets reflecting
that -- DUH -- yes the actors would like a second season.

http://twitter.com/RachelNichols1/status/232898224543907840

http://twitter.com/webstervictor/status/232624108175777792

> SpoilerTV.com reports that the cast will be at FanExpo
> August 23-26 at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre to
> promote the second season.

So if we don't get an official renewal within the next week or
two max they'd be promoting a hypothetical at best. :-)

I get the impression renewal should be a lock and maybe the
issue is whether they make more than 10 eps and/or renew
for more than one season. I think this show has got Showcase
more buzz than anything they've ever had. It's got Canada and
BC tax credits behind it, and Showcase gets cable/satellite fees
and has to use some of it for Canadian content. The show
ought to be very easy to sell internationally. If they cancel
this they might as well fold up shop.

[KalElFan]

"AC" wrote in message news:xqsUr.468916$ma6.2...@fx09.am4...

> Was the significance of the 2012 attack generally known in 2077?
> It seems to be that only a select few knew.

When Kiera (not Keira as I've spelled it a few times now) remembered
it, she seemed to be alluding to it as known history. For anyone else,
there might be the excuse that they simply don't know much history
from 65 years ago, especially not of a single event. In Kiera's case
though, she was in Vancouver 2012 chasing terrorists, and one would
think that she or her suit ought to have flagged the event. She should
have been actively searching any historical information she had and/
or trying to remember anything terrorist-related about the era.

Maybe Future Alec zapped her memory, temporarily. :-)

> When you have time travel as a central plank, almost anything
> goes. Writers just have to be careful about over doing it.

I think it's bigger-picture issues that break faith with the viewership
and the like that sink shows. It's rarely the nitpicks, unless they're
massively stupid things that even someone who doesn't know much
science and/or isn't even paying much attention gets extremely
annoyed by.

> Thing to remember with this show is that we obviously have
> no idea what S2 might hold. So, I reckon its right to hold fire
> and see what happens if S2 happens.

And pretty much anything can happen in terms of the creative
scope the writers have after this finale. There are some pitfalls
though. For example they could nuke the creative scope by
making it canon that the timeline can't be changed, i.e. Kiera
& Co. are just puppets of destiny/fate and there's no free will
and blah blah blah. I think season 2 and beyond needs to nix
that and embrace the meaning of that double "O" in the logo.

Kiera's romantic situation and how that arc is handled will also
be important I think. They made her husband in 2077 a shady
character to some extent, a cad and probably worse methinks.
Maybe Kiera learns worse about him, and along with knowledge
that they're in a new timeline now she moves on. She accepts
that this is a new timeline and stops believing/hoping anything
can be done to get back to the old one.

So in the long-term series arc, who does she move on with?
I think the apparent answer is Carlos, as opposed to Kellog or
in a few years Young Alec or some other character(s) that they
introduce. If Carlos is the plan, I think they'd need to avoid too
much messing around with that. Just go ahead and gradually
move forward with it.

Another big picture issue is Liber8 terrorism versus the 2077
right wing corporate nutjob society that Kiera was a peripheral
part of. Neither are good options, and I think the series is
going for shades of gray in 2012.

[KalElFan]

"jess stone" wrote in message
news:gqa828hn66il4tc52...@4ax.com...

> You and I are looking at this show quite differently.
> "Fire bad. Rachel Nichols pretty."

Reminds me of the "Ooo, I love Dean" posts on the Lois
& Clark board circa 1996 on AOL.

It's part of the appeal of all shows and I'm all for the
babe factor too. For a show like this I don't think it's
enough for a lot of the viewership though.

[Huntress]

On 09/08/2012 10:31 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> And pretty much anything can happen in terms of the creative
> scope the writers have after this finale. There are some pitfalls
> though. For example they could nuke the creative scope by
> making it canon that the timeline can't be changed, i.e. Kiera
> & Co. are just puppets of destiny/fate and there's no free will
> and blah blah blah. I think season 2 and beyond needs to nix
> that and embrace the meaning of that double "O" in the logo.

They've already established that it *can* be changed. Someone died in
the new timeline that lived to a much older age in the original,
already. (Which, as proof of timeline mutability, they pretty much
copied from FlashForward.)

[jess stone]

On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 22:35:50 -0400, "KalElFan"
<kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:

>"jess stone" wrote in message
>news:gqa828hn66il4tc52...@4ax.com...
>
>> You and I are looking at this show quite differently.
>> "Fire bad. Rachel Nichols pretty."
>
>Reminds me of the "Ooo, I love Dean" posts on the Lois
>& Clark board circa 1996 on AOL.

First of all I would never have posted to an L & C board and if did
drunk post one night it would have been all about Lois : ) Second I
think my take on one of the all time classic BTVS lines elevates my
post to camp.

[David Johnston]

Nah. It'll turn out she was misidentified.

[Jim G.]

anim8rFSK sent the following on Wed, 08 Aug 2012 22:58:44 -0700:

They're gonna go to a con to promote a show that hasn't been renewed
yet, or is this their way of saying that the thing *has* been renewed,
but that the renewal won't be made official until the con? Or do people
and/or shows sign up for cons and then drop out if their shows don't end
up getting renewed?

--
Jim G. | Waukesha, WI
"You will create an evil of your own making." -- Knights Templar Grandmaster Data

[Jim G.]

anim8rFSK sent the following on Tue, 07 Aug 2012 17:00:10 -0700:

Since his name is Kellogg, would that make her a ... serial adulterer?
Or does she get a 'bye because she's not married yet (and because her
husband isn't even born yet)? Time travel can make basic morality *so*
complicated. :)

> Also, after Master Braytak blew himself up on the 14th floor, why did
> the lobby spontaneously combust?

Yeah, the fact that there seemed to be multiple ignition points was
weird. Very weird. Did the effects people miss a memo?

> And computer nerd guy has the toughest pajama strings (and teeth) in the
> known universe ...
>
> Excellent casting on future jerk step brother (and a clear cut case for
> capital punishment).

More and more, I'm favoring capital punishment for anyone who pouts and
mopes his way through life like he's been doing as a young "man." Which,
given how so many young "men" act these days, means that the gas
chambers and electric chairs would be getting plenty of steady work. :)

[Jim G.]

KalElFan sent the following on Tue, 7 Aug 2012 21:07:57 -0400:

> "Jeremy" wrote in message
> news:juv1285u9gae1dq2p...@4ax.com...
>

> > Then perhaps she should talk less and shoot more <g>. (Rule #7
> > of the Evil Overlord list.)
>
> They wanted the line to let viewers know that Kagame had told
> Sonya to do it.

Exactly. It was important to know that she was doing Kagame's bidding,
who in turn was doing Alec's bidding. If she'd been acting on her own,
then her actions here would not have shown us how Machiavellian Alec
would become in his later years. (Not that being okay with killing a
terrorist makes him a horrible person, or anything, I guess.)

[snip]

> Younger Alec may find that Old Alec also sent back embedded
> historical records. Those could show a newspaper with a story,
> date, etc. showing one thing happening when something much
> different happens in Young Alec's timeline. That would prove
> to Young Alec that they're in a new timeline now and that it is
> possible to make changes. Whether Travis lives or dies could
> even be an example of that. In the original Timeline v1 that
> Old Alec and Keira were from, maybe one reason it turned to
> crap was because Travis did things to make it much worse.

The fun thing about time travel stories is that we can't assume very
much--including any assumption that the version of 2077 that we saw was
the "original" timeline. For all we know, that was Alec's first or tenth
or 100th attempt at a reboot, and he has just continued to try until he
gets it right. The reboot that *we're* following may simply be the first
one in which he's tried to use Keira to get past the things that were
causing his previous attempts to all fail. :)

[anim8rFSK]

In article <sre828hb311kc9pn5...@4ax.com>,

Yes

[KalElFan]

"Jim G." wrote in message
news:isda289oqd72nign5...@4ax.com...

> ... how Machiavellian Alec would become in his later years.

> (Not that being okay with killing a terrorist makes him a

> horrible person, or anything, I guess.) ...

> ... For all we know, that was Alec's first or tenth or 100th

> attempt at a reboot, and he has just continued to try until he
> gets it right. The reboot that *we're* following may simply
> be the first one in which he's tried to use Keira to get past
> the things that were causing his previous attempts to all
> fail. :)

If there've been multiple iterations, they'd have to write it
that something has made this one the last, definitive and
special one for some reason. Otherwise this one becomes
meaningless.

The concept is very similar to Journeyman, where unseen
Future Guy(s) (possibly Journeyman's son) also seemed to
be trying to manipulate and improve the timeline. Here
Future Guy(s) aren't unseen, they were right in the pilot
episode. Though Future Alec could be behind it all we
may also find out there are others who've helped him
launch this latest and last attempt, e.g. Old Kiera and
Old Carlos from the last iteration.

It's notable as well that the one message to his younger
self, so far, said "read me first." That suggests there are
and will be other messages Young Alec will find. Those
might well record previous histories of, say, six iterations
and why this seventh one is special or their last shot at
getting it right for example.

Journeyman getting cancelled was a disgrace and this
series has even greater potential IMO. Hopefully they
announce renewal soon.

[Jeremy]

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 22:58:44 -0700, anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net>
wrote:

> Jeremy <jer...@supernews.spamtrap> wrote:
>> I hope there's a next season, no news of renewal so far? I really
>> surprised myself by enjoying this series as much as I have. Of course
>> Lexa Doig helped, heh.
>
>Lexa Doig *always* helps!
>
>From Wiki:
>
>Season 2
>Season two is currently in talks. TVEquals.com reports that main
>characters Rachel Nichols and Victor Webster want to do a second
>season.[citation needed] SpoilerTV.com reports that the cast will be at
>FanExpo August 23-26 at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre to promote
>the second season.

Thanks, I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[Jeremy]

On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 22:31:49 -0400, "KalElFan"
<kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:

>Kiera's romantic situation and how that arc is handled will also
>be important I think. They made her husband in 2077 a shady
>character to some extent, a cad and probably worse methinks.
>Maybe Kiera learns worse about him, and along with knowledge
>that they're in a new timeline now she moves on. She accepts
>that this is a new timeline and stops believing/hoping anything
>can be done to get back to the old one.

Despite what she starts to feel about her cad husband, I doubt she'd
let go of or forget about her son so easily! Her son is likely the
greater motivational force for her to get back to her old life than
her husband.

[Ashley Johnson]

On Aug 10, 7:35 pm, Jim G. <jimgy...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> anim8rFSK sent the following on Tue, 07 Aug 2012 17:00:10 -0700:

> > Also, after Master Braytak blew himself up on the 14th floor, why did
> > the lobby spontaneously combust?

"Master Braytak"?

> Yeah, the fact that there seemed to be multiple ignition points was
> weird. Very weird. Did the effects people miss a memo?

I assumed he set the bomb off in the elevator shaft. So it went up and
down and erupted in the lobby and other places, wherever the elevator
doors were weakest. The way the front half of the building collapsed,
suggests the elevators were in a long narrow "core" in the building
that was wide open inside, so the blast spread all through that and
then bisected the building.

[Fred Hall]

On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 18:16:40 -0700 (PDT), Ashley Johnson <ajohns...@gmail.com> wrote:

> up and down and erupted

You do that very well, Paul Derbyshire.
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdyBYSuqQBQ&feature=youtu.be

[Oudemansiella]

On 12/08/2012 3:20 AM, Fred Hall wrote:
53> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.tv,alt.usenet.kooks

53> You do that very well, Paul Derbƴshire.

Suffering from reading comprehension problems, Hall? The preceding post
had been written by Ashley Johnson.

[Bit Rot]

Oudemansiella <ou-dema...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:k085sp$v9f$5...@speranza.aioe.org:

Fred got stinking drunk on rot gut whiskey in his texas trailer
park again last night.
--
Canada's Gay and Lesbian News
http://www.xtra.ca/public/National.aspx

[Jim G.]

KalElFan sent the following on Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:20:25 -0400:

> "Jim G." wrote in message
> news:isda289oqd72nign5...@4ax.com...
>
> > ... how Machiavellian Alec would become in his later years.
> > (Not that being okay with killing a terrorist makes him a
> > horrible person, or anything, I guess.) ...
>
> > ... For all we know, that was Alec's first or tenth or 100th
> > attempt at a reboot, and he has just continued to try until he
> > gets it right. The reboot that *we're* following may simply
> > be the first one in which he's tried to use Keira to get past
> > the things that were causing his previous attempts to all
> > fail. :)
>
> If there've been multiple iterations, they'd have to write it
> that something has made this one the last, definitive and
> special one for some reason. Otherwise this one becomes
> meaningless.

Welcome to time travel! It's a fun narrative tool as long as you don't
think too much about the whole "endless reset" business. :)

[Jim G.]

anim8rFSK sent the following on Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:16:49 -0700:

> In article <sre828hb311kc9pn5...@4ax.com>,
> Jim G. <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > anim8rFSK sent the following on Wed, 08 Aug 2012 22:58:44 -0700:
> > >

> > > Season 2
> > > Season two is currently in talks. TVEquals.com reports that main
> > > characters Rachel Nichols and Victor Webster want to do a second
> > > season.[citation needed] SpoilerTV.com reports that the cast will be at
> > > FanExpo August 23-26 at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre to promote
> > > the second season.
> >
> > They're gonna go to a con to promote a show that hasn't been renewed
> > yet, or is this their way of saying that the thing *has* been renewed,
> > but that the renewal won't be made official until the con? Or do people
> > and/or shows sign up for cons and then drop out if their shows don't end
> > up getting renewed?
>
> Yes

You're missing a couple of yeses or noes there, so I'm gonna assume that
you're just answering that final question. :)

[anim8rFSK]

In article <6aod28tsu6a2qnuof...@4ax.com>,

Jim G. <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

> anim8rFSK sent the following on Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:16:49 -0700:
> > In article <sre828hb311kc9pn5...@4ax.com>,
> > Jim G. <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > > anim8rFSK sent the following on Wed, 08 Aug 2012 22:58:44 -0700:
> > > >
> > > > Season 2
> > > > Season two is currently in talks. TVEquals.com reports that main
> > > > characters Rachel Nichols and Victor Webster want to do a second
> > > > season.[citation needed] SpoilerTV.com reports that the cast will be at
> > > > FanExpo August 23-26 at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre to promote
> > > > the second season.
> > >
> > > They're gonna go to a con to promote a show that hasn't been renewed
> > > yet, or is this their way of saying that the thing *has* been renewed,
> > > but that the renewal won't be made official until the con? Or do people
> > > and/or shows sign up for cons and then drop out if their shows don't end
> > > up getting renewed?
> >
> > Yes
>
> You're missing a couple of yeses or noes there, so I'm gonna assume that
> you're just answering that final question. :)

I'm saying yes and no to all possibilities. :)

[David Barnett]

In article <c000a0d0-22f8-4eb5-bd56-cea2a20d4b23
@hq10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, ajohns...@gmail.com
says...

>
> On Aug 10, 7:35 pm, Jim G. <jimgy...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> > anim8rFSK sent the following on Tue, 07 Aug 2012 17:00:10 -0700:
> > > Also, after Master Braytak blew himself up on the 14th floor, why did
> > > the lobby spontaneously combust?
>
> "Master Braytak"?

The actor's character in Stargate SG!.

--
David Barnett

[Ashley Johnson]

On Aug 12, 8:06 pm, David Barnett <dbar3...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> In article <c000a0d0-22f8-4eb5-bd56-cea2a20d4b23

> @hq10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, ajohnson44...@gmail.com

> says...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 10, 7:35 pm, Jim G. <jimgy...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> > > anim8rFSK sent the following on Tue, 07 Aug 2012 17:00:10 -0700:
> > > > Also, after Master Braytak blew himself up on the 14th floor, why did
> > > > the lobby spontaneously combust?
>
> > "Master Braytak"?
>
> The actor's character in Stargate SG!.

Don't know "Stargate SG!" -- I take it that was a television show?

[anim8rFSK]

In article <MPG.2a92b7c2d...@news.bigpond.com>,

[David Barnett]

In article <3f30c88f-f323-4b5a-9d44-78cc94d01be2
@a9g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, ajohns...@gmail.com
says...

Yes, but I made a typo:
Should be "Stargate SG1"
--
David Barnett

[KalElFan]

"Jeremy" wrote in message
news:fnkb28p27f2f190bb...@4ax.com...

> ... I doubt [Kiera would] let go of or forget about her son

> so easily! Her son is likely the greater motivational force
> for her to get back to her old life than her husband.

Of course she won't forget, but the issue is acceptance
that it's impossible to get back and she has to move on.
I think a second season of the lead character continuing
to want to get back, when all indications are she can't
and the viewership also perceives that future as crap,
would tend to act as a drag.

There are ways they could write it that her son gets sent
back at some point. Old Alec could have sent him back a
day after Kiera left for example, but to a day in 2013 when
he remembered him showing up as if he'd seen his mom
just yesterday . :-)

The 2077 backstory (irony!) is potentially interesting if
it fills in blanks involving Old Alec, his stepbrother and
Kagame and so on. Developments with Kiera's husband
and son might also work depending what they have in
mind.

[KalElFan]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:k03ji5$a7k$1...@dont-email.me...

> ... It'll turn out [Kellog's grandmother I believe it was] was
> misidentified.

Spurring another half dozen episodes of kill the enemy's grannies and
gramps?

I think it's much better to establish [e.g., via Old Alec's messages to
his younger self] that the timeline has been or can be changed but
perhaps with caution and some difficulty. The other timeline can
still exist (hence the double-O) and paradox becomes impossible.
Creatively it allows the writers to tell whatever story they want in
this new timeline that Old Alec seems to have started up.

[David Johnston]

On 8/12/2012 7:01 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> "David Johnston" wrote in message news:k03ji5$a7k$1...@dont-email.me...
>> ... It'll turn out [Kellog's grandmother I believe it was] was
>> misidentified.
>
> Spurring another half dozen episodes of kill the enemy's grannies and
> gramps?

Nope that episode established that it's impossible to make a difference
that way.

>
> I think it's much better to establish [e.g., via Old Alec's messages to
> his younger self] that the timeline has been or can be changed but
> perhaps with caution and some difficulty.

Doesn't matter what would be "better". This is what they are doing.

[David Johnston]

On 8/12/2012 6:46 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> "Jeremy" wrote in message
> news:fnkb28p27f2f190bb...@4ax.com...
>
>> ... I doubt [Kiera would] let go of or forget about her son
>> so easily! Her son is likely the greater motivational force
>> for her to get back to her old life than her husband.
>
> Of course she won't forget, but the issue is acceptance
> that it's impossible to get back and she has to move on.
> I think a second season of the lead character continuing
> to want to get back, when all indications are she can't

I don't know what gives you that idea. "Escher" is popping back and
forth after all. Note the significant alias. She'll go back at the end
to help overthrow the system somehow.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <MPG.2a92ec1ec...@news.bigpond.com>,

The "SG" stands for: STARGATE!

[KalElFan]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:k09ml0$bts$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 8/12/2012 7:01 PM, KalElFan wrote:
>
>> "David Johnston" wrote in message news:k03ji5$a7k$1...@dont-email.me...
>>
>>> ... It'll turn out [Kellog's grandmother I believe it was] was
>>> misidentified.
>>
>> Spurring another half dozen episodes of kill the enemy's grannies and
>> gramps?
>
> Nope that episode established that it's impossible to make a
> difference that way.

Neither Young Alec nor anyone else in that ep "established" why
Kellog didn't disappear after his supposed grandmother was killed.
Young Alec speculated the idiot-obvious, which is that something
had prevented Kellog from disappearing. We DO NOT know what
that something is. Maybe she wasn't his grandmother is one,
and if so there are sub-possibilities like Kellog was switched at
birth, and/or DNA tests suggesting otherwise were fudged or
subverted and yada yada yada on and on.

Now along comes the other poster upthread who cites the ep
as proof the timeline can be and has been changed. That poster
is also wrong, because again we don't know what the something
is. You, to refute the poster, then speculate that the supposed
grandmother was in fact not Kellog's grandmother, she was
misidentified.

So let's say you're right and she was misidentified. If that's
the "something" that allowed Kellog to not just disappear,
then -- MASSIVE FRAKING DUH -- we've found the something
and it reopens the "Kill their grandmothers!" war. It would
mean that all Liber8 or anyone has to do is to find the real
grandma and kill her, or at least that it's worth trying.

> Doesn't matter what would be "better". This is what
> they are doing.

There's the obtuseness, but to the umpteenth arrogant
and delusional power. I'm all for discussing the various
possibilities and the merits of those, but we're not writing
the show and they'll do whatever they like. See the other
post where you similarly heard the word "Escher" and
deemed "Escher" has been popping back and forth, which
is total nonsense jumping to conclusions.

[KalElFan]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:k09mq0$bts$2...@dont-email.me...

We have no evidence at all, let alone proof, that Escher
or anyone else is popping back and forth. Tin Foil Guy
said so but Tin Foil Guy has even less credibility now
than you do.

It's pretty obscure (I hadn't heard of him) but the name
Escher is just a nod to this guy as you may have been
alluding to with "significant":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._C._Escher

It's like the show did a nod to Terminator, and Lost did
nods to philosophers with Locke and so on. There's
nothing wrong with nods like this, but if that's all the
show has it probably crashes and burns soon enough
in season 2 assuming it gets one.

A quick search revealed one post on a web board that
was speculating Escher was probably Old Alec, but also
mentioned Kiera's husband. Old Alec is the Architect
of all this I believe, and so effectively Escher is acting
as an agent of Old Alec like almost everyone else. It
could be that there's someone else higher up than Old
Alec but I doubt it. Some may be on a near par.

Escher could simply be a construct of Old Alec, but
more likely I think he/she is someone else who went
back to support Kiera behind the scenes. It could be
Kiera's son, or it could be Kellog, or Tin Foil Guy who's
been feigning insanity, or Old Carlos... the possibilities
are endless. Maybe we won't find out who Escher is
until the end of the series.

> She'll go back at the end to help overthrow the
> system somehow.

It's possible as long as the "can't change the timeline"
dogma can hold. I'll predict cancellation now or by
the end of season 2 at the latest if that's the case.
It would mean everything we're watching now in the
2012 story, on through another 65 years to 2077, was
pointless and led to the same Liber8 terrorist event
we saw in the premiere. But then...

Kiera emerges from the shadows, along with all
that she learned from the past, and all that she and
Kellog planted in their safety deposit boxes back in
that 2012-2013 era. "Now, finally, we can change
history!" she proclaims. "Well, not quite" responds
Kellog, "2077 history hasn't been written yet, we're
just using what we leaned and planted back in 2012-
2013 there, so we can now one or two years later
from our point of view come back... er, forward here
and overthrow a right wing corporate nutjob society
that should never have been allowed to happen in
the first place."

"Right," said Kiera, "but it all had to happen just the
way it did these last 65 years, because nothing can
change because there's only one timeline."

"Right," said Kellog, "but at least we can now tell
your cad husband that we got married before we
left in 2013. He'd probably try to get you charged
with Bigamy if this were 2013, but since polygamy
was legalized in 2021 he can't."

"Right," said Kiera, "but I might be in for one helluva
custody battle for the kid. Know any good lawyers?"

"No, but I'm sure Old Alec does," said Kellog, as he
and Kiera Cameron Kellog, his beautiful young wife
of 64 years though it seemed to both like they were
still on their honeymoon, walked off into what would
have been a stunning Vancouver sunset if it weren't
for the cloud and rain.

[David Johnston]

On 8/13/2012 6:10 AM, KalElFan wrote:
> "David Johnston" wrote in message news:k09ml0$bts$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 8/12/2012 7:01 PM, KalElFan wrote:
>>
>>> "David Johnston" wrote in message news:k03ji5$a7k$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>> ... It'll turn out [Kellog's grandmother I believe it was] was
>>>> misidentified.
>>>
>>> Spurring another half dozen episodes of kill the enemy's grannies and
>>> gramps?
>>
>> Nope that episode established that it's impossible to make a
>> difference that way.
>
> Neither Young Alec nor anyone else in that ep "established" why
> Kellog didn't disappear after his supposed grandmother was killed.
> Young Alec speculated the idiot-obvious, which is that something
> had prevented Kellog from disappearing. We DO NOT know what
> that something is.

It doesn't matter what the something is. What matters is the episode
proved _to the characters_ that they couldn't accomplish anything by
killing grandmas. Because we aren't just talking about his grandma.
We're talking about hers.

>> Doesn't matter what would be "better". This is what
>> they are doing.
>
> There's the obtuseness, but to the umpteenth arrogant
> and delusional power. I'm all for discussing the various
> possibilities and the merits of those, but we're not writing
> the show and they'll do whatever they like.

They already told us what it is they are doing.

[KalElFan]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:k0b0e1$e8l$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 8/13/2012 6:10 AM, KalElFan wrote:
>
>> Neither Young Alec nor anyone else in that ep "established" why
>> Kellog didn't disappear after his supposed grandmother was killed.
>> Young Alec speculated the idiot-obvious, which is that something
>> had prevented Kellog from disappearing. We DO NOT know what
>> that something is.
>
> It doesn't matter what the something is.

Try to pay attention, because of course it matters in the context of
the discussion. The poster said the show had established that the
timeline can be changed, because Kellog survived even though his
grandmother had been killed (the poster's assumption). If indeed
the poster's assumption is correct that it was Kellog's grandmother,
then his assertion that the timeline has been changed is sound on
the face of it. Kellog can't be born now in this new timeline. He
only exists as a remnant of the other timeline and this one will
take at least a somewhat different path.

> What matters is the episode proved _to the characters_ that
> they couldn't accomplish anything by killing grandmas

It didn't prove that either, and certainly wouldn't if they learned
it wasn't his grandmother, which was your assertion in response
to the poster. If they learned that they'd be more likely to just
try again as I said. Like Alec, they simply don't know why killing
the grandmother didn't work, but an obvious leading candidate
to them as well should be that they're in a new timeline.

> They already told us what it is they are doing.

Their dialogue from Young Alec basically screamed that it's
a fudge and they've established no reason why Kellog is
still alive. At that time, there was good creative reason to
stop the Kill Yo' Momma lunacy, and they did without giving
an explanation. Because they gave no explanation, the new
timeline one remains a (I would say the) leading candidate.

[David Johnston]

On 8/13/2012 8:36 AM, KalElFan wrote:
> "David Johnston" wrote in message news:k0b0e1$e8l$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 8/13/2012 6:10 AM, KalElFan wrote:
>>
>>> Neither Young Alec nor anyone else in that ep "established" why
>>> Kellog didn't disappear after his supposed grandmother was killed.
>>> Young Alec speculated the idiot-obvious, which is that something
>>> had prevented Kellog from disappearing. We DO NOT know what
>>> that something is.
>>
>> It doesn't matter what the something is.
>
> Try to pay attention, because of course it matters in the context of
> the discussion. The poster said the show had established that the
> timeline can be changed, because Kellog survived even though his
> grandmother had been killed (the poster's assumption). If indeed
> the poster's assumption is correct that it was Kellog's grandmother,
> then his assertion that the timeline has been changed is sound on
> the face of it. Kellog can't be born now in this new timeline. He
> only exists as a remnant of the other timeline and this one will
> take at least a somewhat different path.

And yet, one in which Escher will still know to the minute the exact
time when Kiera's cover will collapse.

>
>> What matters is the episode proved _to the characters_ that
>> they couldn't accomplish anything by killing grandmas
>
> It didn't prove that either, and certainly wouldn't if they learned
> it wasn't his grandmother, which was your assertion in response
> to the poster. If they learned that they'd be more likely to just
> try again as I said.

Why? They've tried and failed twice. Why would they keep on trying a
strategy that produces no results? Bear in mind that Liber8 will
probably never find out the truth.

>> They already told us what it is they are doing.
>
> Their dialogue from Young Alec basically screamed that it's
> a fudge

Young Alec doesn't know what he's talking about. Old Alec does.

and they've established no reason why Kellog is
> still alive. At that time, there was good creative reason to
> stop the Kill Yo' Momma lunacy, and they did without giving
> an explanation. Because they gave no explanation, the new
> timeline one remains a (I would say the) leading candidate.

Uh-hunh. And why would Old Alec be interested in creating a new
timeline? What does he get from it? It won't affect him or his future
in the least.

[Jim G.]

anim8rFSK sent the following on Sun, 12 Aug 2012 11:03:29 -0700:

Keep this up and you just might have a future in politics.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <6d3l285ujkkj4dfh5...@4ax.com>,

That was just mean.

[KalElFan]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:k0b4ri$9h4$1...@dont-email.me...

> And yet, [it's a timeline] in which Escher will still know to

> the minute the exact time when Kiera's cover will collapse.

You don't know who/what Escher is, nor how he/she/it knows
whatever he/she/it knows, nor how he/she/it does whatever
he/she/it does. Other than that you're on solid ground! :-/

Young Alec, of 2012, has managed all kinds of technological
feats that have helped Kiera. He's managed it without having
to have advance knowledge of an unchangeable timeline. An
agent of Old Alec, sent back from 2077 timeline v1 to 2012
timeline v2 could have all kinds of superior technology at her/
his/its disposal.

What you're drifting off to simply doesn't even support, let
alone prove, what you speculated it does. You tried to elevate
to fact that the show has established the timeline can't be
changed, and suggested that the writers have too and that
the matter is settled. That's nonsense and why you end up
looking like an obtuse idiot again. You just never learn in
these kinds of discussions and I doubt timeline v314159
would ever change that.

But there's always hope and maybe you'll stop being an
obtuse idiot in the next Usenet iteration. :-) Here's a hint.
When it's obvious you've dug a hole and lost, as it was
about four rounds back, stop digging and shift to real
instead of imaginary solid ground. Don't drift to points
that are still wrong AND don't have anything to do with
the bottomless pit you're still digging.

[The above for other readers, given the default assumption
that Johnston will just keep being a serial digger. On to a
few other points in his post though, in separate responses
hopefully later today, because they're worth working off
of...]

[David Johnston]

On 8/15/2012 1:44 PM, KalElFan wrote:

> What you're drifting off to simply doesn't even support, let
> alone prove, what you speculated it does. You tried to elevate
> to fact that the show has established the timeline can't be
> changed, and suggested that the writers have too and that
> the matter is settled. That's nonsense and why you end up
> looking like an obtuse idiot again. You just never learn in
> these kinds of discussions

Why should I, when your predictions never come true, and mine rarely fail?

[Jim G.]

anim8rFSK sent the following on Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:04:39 -0700:

In retrospect, that was probably nastier than anything that I've ever
said to, say, CD in the past, so I apologize. It was certainly uncalled
for. :)

[anim8rFSK]

In article <08cq28lhn7a8tag52...@4ax.com>,

Better. Still wounded though.

[KalElFan]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:k0h17s$fq9$1...@dont-email.me...

Aside from being more bullshit, that false assertion still
has nothing to do with the hole you buried yourself in. If
you'd framed your original argument(s) about the show
as your OPINIONS_OR_PREDICTIONS, you'd still have lost
by any objective assessment but everyone has an opinion.
Instead, you presented it as if it were fact, and then had
the arrogance to elevate your opinions or predictions to
ones the writers established on screen.

You continued to dig in even after it was specifically
pointed out that the writers had NOT done that. They
specifically had the dialogue of Young Alec put in to
highlight the possibility that the timeline had already
changed! He mentioned three possibilities when Kiera
raised the issue and the second was that they're "on a
new timeline." He also adds "absence of proof isn't
proof of anything." How arrogant and obtuse can a
poster be to ignore such clear evidence that the show
simply hasn't established an answer yet?

As for your "prediction" it can't be disproven yet. But
Kellog seemed pretty certain that was his grandmother,
and we have the double-O signifying two timelines,
and the "tsunami" metaphor suggesting that Old Alec
(via Kagame) thinks small changes now can lead to
big ones in the far future.

As or more importantly, an unchanging timeline that
leads to the same result 65 years later, the terrorist
attack we saw in the pilot, is too lame for words. A
simple loop like that can only work in a short story
or movie of the like, and even then it's problematic.
Terminator (the first one) managed it, but sequels
since have even changed that (new Judgment Day
dates and so on).

[KalElFan]

Just on to some of the additional posts I mentioned the other day...

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:k0b4ri$9h4$1...@dont-email.me...

> ... They've tried and failed twice [to kill a character's grandma].

> Why would they keep on trying a strategy that produces no
> results? Bear in mind that Liber8 will probably never find out
> the truth.

In the meta sense you're just defending the writers fudging it, and
I agree they had to fudge it *IF*for whatever reason, they didn't want
to establish the timeline had changed. So (almost certainly if it
was really Kellog's grandmother) they just went ahead, changed
it, but then had Young Alec's dialogue put in to basically say
"Who knows why?"

As long as that remains the writers' latest word on the issue,
I agree neither Liber8 nor any other characters are likely to find
out the truth. The show, so far, is intentionally trying to avoid
establishing With_Certainty that this is now a v2 timeline.

Five episodes into the series, that creative strategy may have
made sense. Twenty episodes into it, late season two or into
season 3 if they get one, I think it becomes more problematic.
The show becomes a prequel to some crap 2077 future that
won't change one iota up to the point we saw in the premiere.

I mocked one "payoff" in your series finale suggestion if they
go this route. Kiera comes back, just married to Kellog, and
they use whatever they've learned and/or planted to then
finally change 2077. I could have added Old Alec greeting
the two of them as they put their plan into motion. And so
the whole series becomes nothing but a pointless time loop,
with some contrived reason why Kiera had to go back. Will
she be bringing back humpback whales, or horses that are
needed in this "Save 2077" plan? [Trekkers will get the ST IV
reference and my mocking a possible Continuum parallel.]

Heck, she could bring back Carlos with her perhaps, as well
as Kellog, and Tin Foil Guy might be in tow as well. Maybe
she could be married to all three now (plus her 2077 husband),
because the Bigamy charges disappeared when polygamy
was legalized in 2021. :-)

I think it's infinitely better for them to have envisioned
this series as timeline v2. The story here should be Old Alec
knowing that the 2077 future is even worse than we've seen,
and Kiera also realizing that as she seems to be. Then run
with an Old Alec, Escher, Kiera & Co., etc., plan to start
improving it this time through.

That's what the "tsunami" at the other side of time wisdom
from Kagame via Old Alec suggests. It's also what the logo
suggests, the second circle elevated above the first. The
struggle between Liber8 and the Nutjob Society that Kiera
was a pawn in, same thing. Neither outcome is good and
Old Alec's timeline v2 objective is something in between.

[KalElFan]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:k0b4ri$9h4$1...@dont-email.me...

> Young Alec doesn't know what he's talking about. Old Alec
> does.

Young Alec's been established as very smart and tech-savvy, and
he's certainly smart enough to identify the possible reasons that
Kellog didm't die after his supposed grandmother was killed.

As for Old Alec, he hasn't messaged much to Young Alec yet,
nor do we know for sure if Escher is Old Alec's construct or agent.
We also haven't seen any future backstory where he explains
much to his then older stepbrother or Kagame. Old Alec seems
to be using Liber8 as tools and everything's on a need to know
basis. Liber8 may think Old Alec is on their side, the Nutjob
Society may think Old Alec is on their side, and the truth is
probably he wants neither of them. We can see this in Young
Alec's behavior and sense of right and wrong.

This is another aspect of the show that makes it extremely
interesting, the continuous character of Alec. Conceptually,
I think the best writer option when they do give us details
may be that this is literally only the second timeline iteration.

The first time through, perhaps Kiera pursued Liber8 and
Old Alec v1 now remembers that v1 history. He knows that
it turned to crap by 2077 and perhaps it was worse getting
there. Maybe Alec's mother (played by Margot Kidder's niece),
Kiera, and Carlos all died soon afterward. By 2077 horses
are extinct and yada yada yada. Kiera's almost enthusiastic
about following orders and firing away from a helicopter
gunship at unknown supposedly hostile targets, offing
Kellog's sister. To once Young Alec, the timeline is crap.

So at some point along the way, maybe June 2013 in the
v1 timeline, that Young Alec decided to bide his time and
learn about time. There may have been an earlier loop
to nowhere (unknowable), but he resolves to change it.
Ultimately he paves the way for a second chance at
improving the timeline. The timeline v2 is continuous
with timeline v1 up to 2077, before it circles back to
2013 for the attempted reboot.

> And why would Old Alec be interested in creating a new
> timeline?

Because the one he's in is crap and a dreadful mistake
that he played a (somewhat unwitting, initially) part in.
He's wanted to change it for 60+ years. Kiera's death, or
his mother's death, or some other event in v1 may also
weigh on him. When he learned time travel into the
past was possible as a teenager back in 2012, it set him
on this path.

> What does he get from it?

He's old and doesn't have many years left anyway, and
we see a basic goodness in Young Alec that's still there.
So he wants to do something to fix it. There is an issue
of him "destroying" the old timeline but the writers can
handle that in any number of ways as I've posted earlier.
Maybe the old timeline still exists, or maybe Old Alec
learns that Earth will imminently destroy itself or the like.

I think Old Alec should also have learned that time doesn't
have much elasticity for lack of a better term. The story
here seems to involve careful, delicate, difficult, precise,
etc., manipulation, of the timeline. It's not an easy thing
to change history, and ultimately I think there should be
a brief reference explaining that. Journeyman would also
have needed one if it had continued, because it seemed
like it was also being manipulated from the future.

[KalElFan]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:k0b4ri$9h4$1...@dont-email.me...

> It won't affect [Old Alec] or his future in the least [if
> he's engineered a new iteration of the timeline].

In addition to the motivations I set out in the last post,
try to keep looking at it from Old Alec's point of view.
Even if we never saw 2077 v1 again, I think Old Alec
already has iconic character potential. That character
has experienced an entire life of v1. He had a front row
seat to what went wrong, and how it went wrong, and how
it can possibly be made better. He was enough in a
position of power to acquire enormous knowledge and
resources.

Then he begins that attempt as we saw in the premiere.
He had that enigmatic smile. Old Alec's last timeline
v1 memory of Kiera may have been when she died shortly
after going back. Old Alec may already have sent back
"Escher" to ensure that and other negative outcomes will
not happen in v2. He may have sent Tin Foil Guy back to
1992 as part of that plan. (Tin Foil Guy could even be
Escher and feigning the craziness.)

> It won't affect him or his future in the least.

The SF genre being what it is, even that isn't certain.
So far Young Alec has no personal memories of what
happened in v1. But maybe future messages will have
VR downloads, and at some point a full memory download
of Old Alec's Memories. With Young Alec's consent
maybe that gets literally merged and coexists with his
own memories. It'd give new meaning to "Continuum,"
Old+New Alec. :-) An iconic character becomes even
more iconic, the older version played by an iconic actor
from X-Files. :-)

So it might indeed affect Old Alec's future too. It'd be
Earth's second chance and his second chance and
fountain of youth at the same time. They could rename
the series, informally at least, Continuum: The Story of
Alec. :-)

I'd still favor Kiera-Carlos as the series romance arc I
think, but maybe Old-and-Young-Again Alec marries
her instead (no polygamy in 2021 either :-)). The
series could then become AKA "Continuum: The Story
of Alec and Geek Heaven." :-)

Of course maybe Old Alec is just pure or mostly evil for
some reason, despite Young Alec seeming to be a good
kid. And maybe the story is about how and why he
turned bad. and how the events of 2077 are about him
trying to consolidate power or whatever else. We don't
know yet, but this story is so well set up, 3-5x as good
as Journeyman I think. Maybe it's set up too good and
so it's bound to get cancelled. :-)

Davis is also attending the Toronto convention next week
and it has a reference to possible other guests, so I
hope they announce the renewal and that Davis will be
back as well. We could see more of Old Alec and Kagame
and others in the future flashbacks, filling in more of the
story.

If they can't get Davis to keep playing Old Alec or the
2077 era is too expensive, they have the messages route
to Young Alec to tell the story of what happened in v1.
The "read me first" file strongly suggesting there will
be more.

It'd be a waste of the show's potential if this isn't about
a v2 of the timeline though. I'd rather see Showcase just
do a wrap-up TV movie, or heck cancel it now, if that's all
it is.

[David Barnett]

In article <a97mv...@mid.individual.net>,
kale...@yanospamhoo.com says...

I find all your speculations interesting, but if there is
no Season 2, we'll never know unless the writers somehow
let us know by other means what they intended.

--
David Barnett

[David Johnston]

On 8/17/2012 2:12 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> "David Johnston" wrote in message news:k0b4ri$9h4$1...@dont-email.me...
>> It won't affect [Old Alec] or his future in the least [if
>> he's engineered a new iteration of the timeline].
>
> In addition to the motivations I set out in the last post,
> try to keep looking at it from Old Alec's point of view.

I am looking at it from Old Alec's point of view. And from his point of
view he has nothing to gain from this nonsense if all it will do is
spawn a new universe that isn't his. Whether he has retained his
idealism and became an oligarch so he could reform the the government
and return it to democracy, or he became an oligarch and now just wants
to be monarch if what is happening he still won't have furthered his
goals at all.

And since the explosion that is generally considered (at least according
to Kiera and the crazy guy) to be the start of the collapse of
government and the rise of the corporate oligarchy happened right on
schedule (and Old Alec _set that schedule_), and since Kiera is only
back in time because Old Alec positioned her to be sent back and Old
Alec remembers her from when he was Young Alec, I see no reason to
think that Old Alec is trying to change history.

[David Barnett]

In article <k0mg0k$sp1$1...@dont-email.me>, Da...@block.net
says...

So why has he sent her back?
If you are correct it all seems so futile.

--
David Barnett

[David Johnston]

Why does John Connor send Reese back in time to save his mother and
become his father?

[Jim G.]

anim8rFSK sent the following on Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:56:26 -0700:

> In article <08cq28lhn7a8tag52...@4ax.com>,
> Jim G. <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > anim8rFSK sent the following on Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:04:39 -0700:
> > > In article <6d3l285ujkkj4dfh5...@4ax.com>,
> > > Jim G. <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> > >
> > > > anim8rFSK sent the following on Sun, 12 Aug 2012 11:03:29 -0700:
> > > > >

> > > > > I'm saying yes and no to all possibilities. :)
> > > >
> > > > Keep this up and you just might have a future in politics.
> > >
> > > That was just mean.
> >
> > In retrospect, that was probably nastier than anything that I've ever
> > said to, say, CD in the past, so I apologize. It was certainly uncalled
> > for. :)
>
> Better. Still wounded though.

If you really want to have a career in politics, then you're gonna have
to have a thicker skin than this.

[Harry Dreyfus]

On 12/08/2012 5:08 PM, Ashley Johnson wrote:
> On Aug 12, 8:06 pm, David Barnett <dbar3...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>> In article <c000a0d0-22f8-4eb5-bd56-cea2a20d4b23
>> @hq10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, ajohnson44...@gmail.com
>> says...

>>> "Master Braytak"?
>>
>> The actor's character in Stargate SG!.
>
> Don't know "Stargate SG!" -- I take it that was a television show?

...

What.

[Harry Dreyfus]

On 17/08/2012 3:44 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> Five episodes into the series, that creative strategy may have
> made sense. Twenty episodes into it, late season two or into
> season 3 if they get one, I think it becomes more problematic.
> The show becomes a prequel to some crap 2077 future that
> won't change one iota up to the point we saw in the premiere.

You do realize that, if we accept your argument as valid, it would also
mean that the premises behind such movies as "Alien vs. Predator" and
the Star Wars prequel trilogy were "problematic" as well?

> I mocked one "payoff" in your series finale suggestion if they
> go this route. Kiera comes back, just married to Kellog, and
> they use whatever they've learned and/or planted to then
> finally change 2077. I could have added Old Alec greeting
> the two of them as they put their plan into motion. And so
> the whole series becomes nothing but a pointless time loop,

Google "Hermetic journey".

[Harry Dreyfus]

On 17/08/2012 6:19 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 8/17/2012 2:12 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> > "David Johnston" wrote in message news:k0b4ri$9h4$1...@dont-email.me...
> >> It won't affect [Old Alec] or his future in the least [if
> >> he's engineered a new iteration of the timeline].
> >
> > In addition to the motivations I set out in the last post,
> > try to keep looking at it from Old Alec's point of view.
>
> I am looking at it from Old Alec's point of view. And from his point of
> view he has nothing to gain from this nonsense if all it will do is
> spawn a new universe that isn't his.

Unless his world is doomed, perhaps by global warming or something.

[David Johnston]

On 8/18/2012 1:26 PM, Harry Dreyfus wrote:
> On 17/08/2012 3:44 PM, KalElFan wrote:
>> Five episodes into the series, that creative strategy may have
>> made sense. Twenty episodes into it, late season two or into
>> season 3 if they get one, I think it becomes more problematic.
>> The show becomes a prequel to some crap 2077 future that
>> won't change one iota up to the point we saw in the premiere.
>
> You do realize that, if we accept your argument as valid, it would also
> mean that the premises behind such movies as "Alien vs. Predator" and
> the Star Wars prequel trilogy were "problematic" as well?

That is one perennial problem with prequels I think. But of course that
they can't change history doesn't alter the essential cop show dynamic
of the series. We don't know what the history they can't change is, so
we don't know for example whether the scary guy survived getting shot
(although the odds are really pretty good considering that he's getting
shot _inside a hospital_) or if Kiera will actually make it home (but
note that if they could change history, then Kiera would not have a home
to go back to). And with each episode we only have the bias in favour
of the protagonist winning to suggest whether or not Kiera will foil
Liber8's latest murderous scheme. And while that bias exists here, it's
weaker than in the usual show.

But really I find it helps to have an accurate set of expectations, at
least personally. To understand that Cloe Sullivan's romantic
aspiration is doomed, that Doctor Swan will not turn out to be Superman
from Earth II, that Voyager will screw around in the ass end of the
galaxy until the very end when suddenly they'll be offered a successful
short-cut back home, that there is in fact not going to be a rational
explanation for what is happening on The Island, that the thing which
suppresses electricity is going to be fantasytech, it seems to me that
these realizations keep people from getting disappointed and resentful.

[anim8rFSK]

In article <obov28tb4iq0jl61s...@4ax.com>,

Jim G. <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

> anim8rFSK sent the following on Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:56:26 -0700:
> > In article <08cq28lhn7a8tag52...@4ax.com>,
> > Jim G. <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > > anim8rFSK sent the following on Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:04:39 -0700:
> > > > In article <6d3l285ujkkj4dfh5...@4ax.com>,
> > > > Jim G. <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > anim8rFSK sent the following on Sun, 12 Aug 2012 11:03:29 -0700:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm saying yes and no to all possibilities. :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Keep this up and you just might have a future in politics.
> > > >
> > > > That was just mean.
> > >
> > > In retrospect, that was probably nastier than anything that I've ever
> > > said to, say, CD in the past, so I apologize. It was certainly uncalled
> > > for. :)
> >
> > Better. Still wounded though.
>
> If you really want to have a career in politics, then you're gonna have
> to have a thicker skin than this.

Oozing again.

[Jim G.]

anim8rFSK sent the following on Sat, 18 Aug 2012 15:24:39 -0700:

There are pills you can take for that.

[KalElFan]

"Harry Dreyfus" (so far evading allegations of being another
sock puppet of a posting entity who shall remain nameless :-))
wrote in message news:k0oq8c$4en$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> On 17/08/2012 3:44 PM, KalElFan wrote:
>
>> Five episodes into the series, that creative strategy may have
>> made sense. Twenty episodes into it, late season two or into
>> season 3 if they get one, I think it becomes more problematic.
>> The show becomes a prequel to some crap 2077 future that
>> won't change one iota up to the point we saw in the premiere.
>
> You do realize that, if we accept your argument as valid, it
> would also mean that the premises behind such movies as
> "Alien vs. Predator" and the Star Wars prequel trilogy were
> "problematic" as well?

Both or those are movies not TV series. Also, in the Star
Wars case, the first trilogy was iconic and had a gloriously
happy and triumphant ending. Trying to make a TV series
with a crap dystopian ending like Continuum, and have it
inevitable that all it does is circle back to the same crap
dystopian scenario we saw in the premiere, would I grant
be historic. As in historically moronic. Fortunately it's not
what the evidence suggests they're doing.

Also, Alien vs. Predator was just a stunt crossover movie
and wasn't particularly successful (<$100M domestic gross
and its followup less than half that). That and other prequel
movies that disappoint or underperform demonstrate it can
be difficult to pull off even in movies. The first Terminator
is the only exception I can think of where it worked great,
but Terminator 2 did far more box office and that started
the change of the dates and so on.

>> I mocked one "payoff" in [DJ's] series finale suggestion if they

>> go this route. Kiera comes back, just married to Kellog, and
>> they use whatever they've learned and/or planted to then
>> finally change 2077. I could have added Old Alec greeting
>> the two of them as they put their plan into motion. And so
>> the whole series becomes nothing but a pointless time loop,
>
> Google "Hermetic journey".

Having an alternate, less descriptive term for it doesn't make
a pointless crap timeloop any better a premise for a TV series.

[KalElFan]

"David Barnett" wrote in message
news:MPG.2a996a694...@news.bigpond.com...

> I find all your speculations interesting...

Thanks, but really the core of all this "speculation" gets
to just two mutually exclusive possibilities. Either (1) the
timeline can't be changed, or (2) it can. While episode 5
specifically avoided giving a definitive answer, I think all
the evidence suggests (2) the timeline can be changed,
and it's creatively the far better option.

Young Alec (and that dialogue from the "Test of Time" ep
1-05) identify #2 as the only specific possibility that fits
with what we've seen. His two other possibilities in that
dialogue were both fudges. One was "maybe that wasn't
his grandmother," which is extraordinarily unlikely given
what we saw and how Kellog reacted. The other is "there
is no paradox," but factually there would be IF Kellog's
grandma was killed AND the timeline can't be changed.
He can't be born, yet he was born.

The only way to avoid paradox in this scenario, other than
with nonsense or ridiculously unlikely explanations, is to
allow a changed timeline.

We've already seen the first message from Old Alec
to Young Alec, marked as such. It's an obviously good
reason to expect more such messages. So that wasn't
much in the way of speculation either. It's a "DUH!"
expectation, the same as concluding that Old Alec is
behind all this (unless and until we see a higher up),
because that's what the story has effectively told us
at this point.

The only thing I speculated that's a bit of a leap was in
response to Johnston's perpetual non-creativity and his
attributing that same non-creativity to the writers. He
does this again and again with this and other series. He
can't or won't envisage possible ways around whatever
set in stone canon he thinks he sees, and he thinks the
writers are helpless too.

So even though Old Alec doesn't need motivation here
beyond altruism and trying to right a wrong he was part
of, I demonstrated one possible way he could personally
benefit. It's not a stretch that 2077 has memory download
or transfer technology that would allow the Old Alec to
literally get a fountain of youth second chance out of this.
Kiera's suit and time travel and so on, that level of tech,
ought to make such transfer possible too.

It could also be turned on its ear if they want Old Alec
to be Evil for whatever reason. Maybe the divergence to
v2 of the timeline hasn't quite happened yet, and Old
Alec is making sure of that so he can gain Young Alec's
trust through the messages that he's sent to him. At
some point maybe he lures Alec into agreeing, but then
Young Alec gets buried and it becomes a possession
type story.

> ... but if there is no Season 2, we'll never know...

Duh. :-) Even this wouldn't count for much:

> unless the writers somehow let us know by other
> means what they intended.

I've bookmarked the Twitter pages of those on the
show who have one, in case there's news of a renewal.
Here's what the EP/creator Simon Barry just tweeted
recently:

"In Toronto next weekend for @FanExpoCanada
#Continuum panel. Please attend and allow me to
dodge your questions in person for a change."

http://twitter.com/SimonDavisBarry/status/236866334909165568

Maybe we'll read some reports online late Saturday or
Sunday, if they announce something there. Along with
Barry, the actors who play Kiera, Carlos and Young Alec
are also scheduled. Davis who plays Old Alec is there
too (all four days apparently), but not specifically and
maybe not at all for Continuum.

[KalElFan]

"Harry Dreyfus" wrote in message news:k0oqis$4en$2...@speranza.aioe.org...

Yes and I did mention that as a possibility upthread. What we saw
of 2077 in the premiere, and from clips since, is certainly evidence
of a dystopia that doesn't seem to be headed anywhere good. But...

Young Alec's characterization is a season`s worth of evidence we have
now. He's a genius and a good kid. He`s not Anakin Skywalker about
to turn evil, and we`ve seen no Emperor equivalent. Even if the show
somehow went down that path and got it to ring true, even Anakin
found redemption! So it would still suggest a changed timeline was
a possibility.

Altruistic motivations are ubiquitous (no capital U :-)). If someone
had enough knowledge of how time and the continuum works, and
how to send people back in time and the resources to achieve that,
they'd do it AS LONG AS it didn't destroy their own timeline and
everyone in it. If Old Alec learned that a new timeline can be
created, he has no reason NOT to try to give his younger self and
Kiera and so on a second chance at a better future.

[David Johnston]

On 8/21/2012 6:20 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> "Harry Dreyfus" (so far evading allegations of being another
> sock puppet of a posting entity who shall remain nameless :-))
> wrote in message news:k0oq8c$4en$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> On 17/08/2012 3:44 PM, KalElFan wrote:
>>
>>> Five episodes into the series, that creative strategy may have
>>> made sense. Twenty episodes into it, late season two or into
>>> season 3 if they get one, I think it becomes more problematic.
>>> The show becomes a prequel to some crap 2077 future that
>>> won't change one iota up to the point we saw in the premiere.
>>
>> You do realize that, if we accept your argument as valid, it
>> would also mean that the premises behind such movies as
>> "Alien vs. Predator" and the Star Wars prequel trilogy were
>> "problematic" as well?
>
> Both or those are movies not TV series. Also, in the Star
> Wars case, the first trilogy was iconic and had a gloriously
> happy and triumphant ending. Trying to make a TV series
> with a crap dystopian ending like Continuum, and have it
> inevitable that all it does is circle back to the same crap
> dystopian scenario we saw in the premiere, would I grant
> be historic. As in historically moronic. Fortunately it's not
> what the evidence suggests they're doing.

Cite your evidence.

[David Johnston]

On 8/21/2012 6:47 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> "David Barnett" wrote in message
> news:MPG.2a996a694...@news.bigpond.com...
>
>> I find all your speculations interesting...
>
> Thanks, but really the core of all this "speculation" gets
> to just two mutually exclusive possibilities. Either (1) the
> timeline can't be changed, or (2) it can. While episode 5
> specifically avoided giving a definitive answer, I think all
> the evidence suggests (2) the timeline can be changed,

In what way does

1. Old Alec knowing who Kiera was before they met even though he's the
one who sent her back.

2. Old Alec predicting the conversation that the terrorist will have
with his younger self.

3. Old Alec telling the terrorist to blow up the building and the
terrorist agreeing to this plan by his enemy even though it means
killing himself.

4. Old Alec knowing about the building in the future will be destroyed
and thus avoiding the fate of the other bosses.

5. Old Alec being the source of the terrorists time machine in the
first place.

6. The terrorist's mentor telling that whether or not they can trust
Old Alec, they'll do what he wants anyway and he'll spend his life
preparing the terrorist to follow Old Alec's plan

suggest that history can be changed?

[KalElFan]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:k11ogu$ih$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 8/21/2012 6:47 PM, KalElFan wrote:
>
>> "David Barnett" wrote in message
>> news:MPG.2a996a694...@news.bigpond.com...
>>
>>> I find all your speculations interesting...
>>
>> Thanks, but really the core of all this "speculation" gets
>> to just two mutually exclusive possibilities. Either (1) the
>> timeline can't be changed, or (2) it can. While episode 5
>> specifically avoided giving a definitive answer, I think all
>> the evidence suggests (2) the timeline can be changed,
>
> In what way does
>

> 1. Old Alec knowing... 2. Old Alec predicting... 3. Old
> Alec telling... 4. Old Alec knowing... 5. Old Alec being...
> 6. ... whether or not they can trust Old Alec, they'll...

> follow Old Alec's plan
>
> suggest that history can be changed?

It was interesting enough, and funny enough, that each of
your six points focused on Old Alec. That's what the above
quoting is designed to show. At least we agree that Old
Alec definitely seems to be at the core of this!

Your fallacy is assuming that *ANYTHING* you cited is
evidence one way or another on the issue of whether or
not the timeline can be changed. *OF_COURSE* Old Alec
has already experienced v1 of the timeline and has the
memories of what occurred. He has that base to work
from, along with all the other knowledge and resources
that he's acquired in his 65 years of additional life post-
2012.

It's one of the great things about this already iconic
character (IMO) that he's continuous in a sense as I've
said. He sends back Kiera, and unbeknownst to her
he sends the "Read First" message to his younger
self. Presumably there will be more.

If the creative plan is that Alec is manipulating a v2
timeline, we won't know when the divergence takes
place or took place, unless and until they tell us. If
we had to pick a single point now, it might be when
Kellog's grandmother was killed. In this new v2, no
Kellog will be born. However Kellog v1 can and does
remain as a remnant of v1.

After the divergence, many events could also be the
same or extremely similar, the small changes leading
to a tsunami metaphor being the principle.

But There Can Be Only Two... timelines in this series,
if we're to believe our own eyes when we look at the
double-O in the Continuum Logo. It's even a double-O
in the "O" in Simon, as in Simon Barry's name the EP/
Creator. So Simon Sez it's a two-timeline story. :-)

Under your Unchanging Timeline argument, one of the
other fallacies would be that Old Alec is "doing" anything.
He isn't. He's a puppet of Fate. He has no plan that
matters, he just has the illusion of a plan and free will.
He could have slept in when he thought he needed to
be doing something to send Kiera back. Kiera would
have still got sent back because the janitor in 2077
accidentally did the same thing that Old Alec would
have done if he hadn't slept in. Or something else
would have Made It Happen.

With a two-hour movie like Terminator, a pure time
loop can work but it's still difficult. In this TV series
or any like it, it can't really work even from a pseudo
SF point of view.

[David Johnston]

No "of course" about it. Everything that occured "this
time around" occured because of things that old Alec did.
If v1 of the timeline is one in which Alec didn't do any
of those things, it should be a timeline in which Liber8 and
Kiera never went back in time.

> If the creative plan is that Alec is manipulating a v2
> timeline, we won't know when the divergence takes
> place or took place, unless and until they tell us. If

> we had to pick a single point now,it might be when

> Kellog's grandmother was killed.

Which we'd have to because that's the only thing suggesting
that events might not be fixed.

[KalElFan]

[snippage to get to Johnston's latest tangent(s)]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:k12qc4$ltq$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 8/22/2012 7:00 AM, KalElFan wrote:

>[...]

>> Your fallacy is assuming that *ANYTHING* you cited is
>> evidence one way or another on the issue of whether or
>> not the timeline can be changed. *OF_COURSE* Old Alec
>> has already experienced v1 of the timeline and has the
>> memories of what occurred.
>

> No "of course" about it...

In addition to the obtuseness, you have a problem conceding
agreement. Nothing you said after the above refutes our
"Of course" agreement that Old Alec remembers Kiera being
sent back and so on. The issue is whether this precludes
a v2 or even multiple iterations of the timeline, which it
doesn't. Then you take your failure to concede agreement
on this tangent here...

> Everything that occured "this time around" occured
> because of things that old Alec did.

Unless Old Alec is somehow God or Fate or Destiny or the
like, he doesn't cause and hasn't caused more than a near-
infinitesimally small number of events in the Earth (let
alone universal) scheme of things.

Though I prefer a v1 and v2 creative approach to the
timeline in this series, arguably it's a stretch to think
Old Alec gets it right on his first Do Over attempt. So
they could write it that Alec's been through this multiple
times. The way they could make this attempt special
is that he's getting closer and this is and/or has to be
his final attempt for some way-time-works reason.

> If v1 of the timeline is one in which Alec didn't do any

> of those things...

Where v1 is the current timeline that started the series
(we could learn it's really Old Alec's 14th try or whatever),
v1 is *BY_DEFINITION* the one Old Alec v1 remembers
having occurred.

> it should be a timeline in which Liber8 and Kiera never
> went back in time.

It *CAN'T* be that if Old Alec remembers it happening.
You're stating idiot-obvious facts but then leaping to
a conclusion (one timeline, no possible changes, no v2
or incremental iterations) that simply doesn't follow.
Kiera can go back as she did, but events can change
and those events will NOT be remembered by Old Alec
v1 as having occurred. It's Young Alec who experiences
and remembers those v2 events.

>> If the creative plan is that Alec is manipulating a v2
>> timeline, we won't know when the divergence takes
>> place or took place, unless and until they tell us. If
>> we had to pick a single point now,it might be when
>> Kellog's grandmother was killed.
>
> Which we'd have to because that's the only thing
> suggesting that events might not be fixed.

It's a big honking clue, duh. But we don't know when
"Escher" went back for example, if indeed he did, or if
Tin Foil Guy is feigning the insanity and really did go
back to 1992. Also, Old Alec's sequence of sending
anyone back from circa 2077 doesn't have to be the
same sequence in terms of the era that they arrived
in in the past. I'm in favor of the show ultimately
keeping this next and last iteration of the timeline
as simple as possible though, and episode 5 called
"Test of Time" would be a good divergence point to
look back on from a series perspective.

[David Johnston]

On 8/22/2012 9:46 AM, KalElFan wrote:



which it
> doesn't. Then you take your failure to concede agreement
> on this tangent here...
>
>> Everything that occured "this time around" occured
>> because of things that old Alec did.
>
> Unless Old Alec is somehow God or Fate or Destiny or the
> like, he doesn't cause and hasn't caused more than a near-
> infinitesimally small number of events in the Earth (let
> alone universal) scheme of things.

A meaningless quibble. All the events of the series happened because
Old Alec gave the time device to the terrorist and told him what to do.
Therefore either history doesn't change or in the first version of
history Young Alec never met Kiera, the building in the present never
collapsed and either the historians of Kiera's time are wrong about the
significance of the building collapse, or Old Alec's time tampering has
all been aimed at creating a dystopian future in which he's dictator.

>> If v1 of the timeline is one in which Alec didn't do any
>> of those things...
>
> Where v1 is the current timeline that started the series
> (we could learn it's really Old Alec's 14th try or whatever),
> v1 is *BY_DEFINITION* the one Old Alec v1 remembers
> having occurred.
>
>> it should be a timeline in which Liber8 and Kiera never
>> went back in time.
>
> It *CAN'T* be that if Old Alec remembers it happening.

If it isn't that, it isn't v1.

>
>>> If the creative plan is that Alec is manipulating a v2
>>> timeline, we won't know when the divergence takes
>>> place or took place, unless and until they tell us. If
>>> we had to pick a single point now,it might be when
>>> Kellog's grandmother was killed.
>>
>> Which we'd have to because that's the only thing
>> suggesting that events might not be fixed.
>
> It's a big honking clue, duh. But we don't know when
> "Escher" went back for example, if indeed he did,

So that isn't a thing suggesting that events might not be fixed.

or if
> Tin Foil Guy is feigning the insanity and really did go
> back to 1992.

So that isn't a thing suggesting that event might not be fixed. And
there is no reason why he can't be both insane and a time traveller

Also, Old Alec's sequence of sending
> anyone back from circa 2077 doesn't have to be the
> same sequence in terms of the era that they arrived
> in in the past.

So that isn't a thing suggesting that events might not be fixed.

So when you say "all the evidence" it boils down to "there is one bit of
evidence" and you deny the existence of contrary evidence because it is
contrary to what you want.

I get it. I do. We have to believe in free will. We just have to.

[David Barnett]

In article <k13027$qrv$1...@dont-email.me>, Da...@block.net
says...

If I have it right, in David's version of Continuum Old
Alec thinks he can change the future by sending people
back in time but it is a completely futile act. IOW the
past is immutable.

In KalElFan's version he possibly does it multiple times.
However, I think, even with with free will, people will
do the same things unless something urges them to do
differently.
What is this something, and where does it come from?
If it doesn't exist the whole exercise is again futile.
If Old Alec sees the future is changed a little I can
believe he would do it more than once. Would he have the
memory to see it changed?

And this whole discussion is probably futile if there is
no Season 2!
--
David Barnett

[David Johnston]

On 8/22/2012 2:55 PM, David Barnett wrote:

>> So when you say "all the evidence" it boils down to "there is one bit of
>> evidence" and you deny the existence of contrary evidence because it is
>> contrary to what you want.
>>
>> I get it. I do. We have to believe in free will. We just have to.
>
> If I have it right, in David's version of Continuum Old
> Alec thinks he can change the future by sending people
> back in time but it is a completely futile act.IOW the
> past is immutable.

I don't think he thinks he can change anything that has already
happened. He's just playing his role in predetermined events since
after all, they end up with him being the most powerful man in North
America.

[Harry Dreyfus]

On 21/08/2012 8:20 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> "Harry Dreyfus" (so far evading allegations of being another
> sock puppet of a posting entity who shall remain nameless :-))

???

> wrote in message news:k0oq8c$4en$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> On 17/08/2012 3:44 PM, KalElFan wrote:
>>
>>> Five episodes into the series, that creative strategy may have
>>> made sense. Twenty episodes into it, late season two or into
>>> season 3 if they get one, I think it becomes more problematic.
>>> The show becomes a prequel to some crap 2077 future that
>>> won't change one iota up to the point we saw in the premiere.
>>
>> You do realize that, if we accept your argument as valid, it
>> would also mean that the premises behind such movies as
>> "Alien vs. Predator" and the Star Wars prequel trilogy were
>> "problematic" as well?
>
> Both or those are movies not TV series.

They're movie *series*.

> Also, in the Star Wars case, the first trilogy was iconic
> and had a gloriously happy and triumphant ending.

Doesn't matter. The prequel trilogy had to be headed toward tragedy to
set up the Empire and Darth Vader.

> Trying to make a TV series with a crap dystopian ending like
> Continuum,

Who says that's the ending? They could catch up to 2077 and fix things
there. You'd have the same complaint about Star Wars if the narrative
order had been Episode IV, Episode V, then flashback to Episodes I-III,
and only at the end Episode VI.

> Also, Alien vs. Predator was just a stunt crossover movie
> and wasn't particularly successful (<$100M domestic gross
> and its followup less than half that).

How much money it made isn't the issue here.

[KalElFan]

"David Barnett" wrote in message

news:MPG.2a9ff2655...@news.bigpond.com...

> If I have it right, in David's version of Continuum Old
> Alec thinks he can change the future by sending people
> back in time but it is a completely futile act. IOW the
> past is immutable.

Yes, and consistent with that would be one of David's
latest suggestions, which was that Old Alec was simply
going through the motions to solidify his Poobah 2077
status.

> In KalElFan's version [the timeline can be changed and]
> he [Old Alec] possibly does it multiple times.

Obviously it's possible there have been previous iterations.
Another poster was the first to mention that some months
ago. I think it's better to go with just v1 and v2 (as the
Continuum double-O logo suggests), but it's arguable.

It's like the issue of whether Old Alec is being altruistic
or for some reason turned really bad. Based on Young
Alec I think atruistic makes more sense, but Young Alec
the nemesis of his older self could also be interesting.
I prefer that Alec be good though, and interestingly
that's what Erik Knudsen also said he prefers at the
Fan Expo Panel.

http://suite101.com/article/continuum-cast-dishes-at-fan-expo-canada-2012-a411167

> However, I think, even with... free will, people will do

> the same things unless something urges them to do
> differently.

Maybe, but the premise here would be Old Alec wanting
a Do Over and hoping to turn the crap timeline into a
better one. Even if he were bad and wanted a Do Over
to increase his power even more, he'd be manipulating
a v2 of the timeline there too. It's only under David's No
Possible Change No Free Will Fate Has Predetermined
Everything that it all just circles back to the 2077 that

we saw in the premiere.

> If Old Alec sees the future is changed a little I can
> believe he would do it more than once. Would he
> have the memory to see it changed?

Possibly -- it's what the "Read First" message establishes.
Young Alec can be told not only how v1 played out, but
given the advanced technology could even get all or part
of Old Alec's memories of it downloaded. If and when
that does happen, there could be six iterations worth
of memories. Old Alec may remember the date that he
received the previous five iterations, in 2017 or whenever
the show's last season is. :-) (But I prefer just v1 and v2,
one Do Over, difficult to achieve, no prior iterations.)

> And this whole discussion is probably futile if there is
> no Season 2!

There is now!

If nothing else, methinks TPTB's minds -- Simon Barry's
at least -- are "out there" enough to give us something
creative. Here's another reason why...

When Deadline put the name Alec Sadler as an actor in
the cast earlier today (it's since been fixed, changed to
Erik Knudsen), it convinced me to look up "Sadler". At
the Fan Expo panel, that suite101 article link above
mentions they couldn't use the name "Kyra" for legal
reasons and it became "Kiera." I gave the "Escher" link
a while back, i.e. the guy Continuum was giving a nod
to there. So I thought I'd look up Sadler. Sure enough:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_S._Sadler

He was a psychiatrist who studied under Freud, and he
wrote a book about a patient he [Sadler] had who was
supposedly channeling extraterrestrials. He relayed
their knowledge of everything and it ended up this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book

And get this. Sadler also married a niece of THE Kellogg,
the cereal guy. Continuum dropped the extra g to give us
the good(?) Liber8 guy and potential Kiera love interest
Kellog. That Urantia Book also has its own mythology, for
lack of a better description, on all kinds of things. There
are seven "superuniverses" for example. I'd never heard
of it nor William Sadler before today, but maybe Barry is
telling us Sadler and Kellog have some connection, eh?
Maybe Kellog is "Escher."

As for the 7 number, could mean 7 iterations but maybe
it's just the remaining number of Liber8 folk now. :-)

[David Johnston]

On 8/27/2012 1:56 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> "David Barnett" wrote in message
> news:MPG.2a9ff2655...@news.bigpond.com...
>
>> If I have it right, in David's version of Continuum Old
>> Alec thinks he can change the future by sending people
>> back in time but it is a completely futile act. IOW the
>> past is immutable.
>
> Yes, and consistent with that would be one of David's
> latest suggestions, which was that Old Alec was simply
> going through the motions to solidify his Poobah 2077
> status.

And by "consistent" you mean "totally inconsistent". There is no
indication that Old Alec is trying to change history.

[KalElFan]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:k1gk0u$3i1$1...@dont-email.me...

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt with the
other David's use of "change the future". Old Alec's
future is post-2077. Earlier, you had predicted that
Kiera would go back -- to the FUTURE! :-) -- after however
long spent in the past, to bring down the corporate nutjob
regime. I think you also alluded to Old Alec perhaps wanting
to improve his position as he did by not being within the
blast radius of the 2077 event.

This "future future war" that would take place post-2077,
after this series had wasted our time circling back to the
same place it started, tied in with your prediction, as if it
were fact, that Escher was popping back and forth in time.
So once Kiera figured out how to do that she'd go back --
to the FUTURE! -- and battle Old Alec or maybe join him.

Originally I mentioned Star Trek IV and humpback whales
as the obvious comparative for why Kiera needed to go
back. But given the show's suggestion in one episode
that horses may be rare if not extinct, maybe she needs
to bring back horse manure. Perhaps it's the final piece,
uh, of the puzzle that Old Alec needs to ensure his rule
lasts at least another 10-15 years or his remaining life
expectancy, whichever comes first.

Or maybe there are no humpbacks and no horse manure,
just Fate that made her go back, and then return, for no
particular reason at all. Simon Barry couldn't do better
because that Sadler book with the extraterrestrial mumbo
jumbo didn't provide any guidance.

You could be right. We might be getting historically, and
hysterically, pointless crap rather than the landmark TV
series that that Syfy UK exec was babbling about.

[David Johnston]

On 8/27/2012 3:34 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> "David Johnston" wrote in message news:k1gk0u$3i1$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 8/27/2012 1:56 PM, KalElFan wrote:
>>
>>> "David Barnett" wrote in message
>>> news:MPG.2a9ff2655...@news.bigpond.com...
>>>
>>>> If I have it right, in David's version of Continuum Old
>>>> Alec thinks he can change the future by sending people
>>>> back in time but it is a completely futile act. IOW the
>>>> past is immutable.
>>>
>>> Yes, and consistent with that would be one of David's
>>> latest suggestions, which was that Old Alec was simply
>>> going through the motions to solidify his Poobah 2077
>>> status.
>>
>> And by "consistent" you mean "totally inconsistent".
>> There is no indication that Old Alec is trying to change
>> history.
>
> I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt with the
> other David's use of "change the future". Old Alec's
> future is post-2077.

Oh, I see what you're talking about. Yes, I believe that Old Alec plans
to make some changes to the status quo of his time but has concluded
that this past is unchangeable

[tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu]

Oudemansiella <ou-dema...@gmail.com> writes:

3> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.tv,alt.usenet.kooks

3> Suffering from reading comprehension problems, Hall? The preceding
post
3> had been written by Ashley Johnson.

How ironic.

[tho...@ifa.hawaii.edu]

Bit Rot writes:

4> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.tv,alt.usenet.kooks

4> Fred got stinking drunk on rot gut whiskey in his texas trailer
4> park again last night.

What do the consequences of Fred's drinking have to do with
OS/2, Bit Rot?

[Pleurocybella]

On 29/08/2012 8:20 AM, tho...@antispam.ham wrote:
/!\> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.tv,alt.usenet.kooks

/!\> How ironic.

Where is the alleged irony, tholenbot?