Sci-Fi/Fantasy Nielsen Ratings (Feb 24)
Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com
SCIENCE FICTION/FANTASY TV RATINGS
rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.tv, rec.arts.startrek.current, alt.tv.x-files,
alt.tv.lois-n-clark, alt.tv.xena, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Notes:
- Network: Date matches broadcast date.
- Syndicated: Date matches Nielsen's listed date not broadcast date.
- (R) repeat episode for >network shows only<
- --- pre-empted episode
- ??? rating unknown
- *** season premiere
- Network: 1 Rating=970,000 homes/97.0 million homes total
- Syndicated: 1 Rating=959,000 homes/95.9 million homes total
- Share is the percentage of all TVs currently turned on.
- Best viewed with a non-proportional font: Courier/Monaco/VT100
NETWORK:
ABC 8.9 CBS 10.6 NBC 10.6
Fox 7.8 UPN 2.9 WB 2.5
PRIME-TIME: February 24-02 (last week)
Rank Net/Rating/Share
41 The X-Files(R) FOX/ 9.6% /15%
70 Pretender(R) NBC/ 6.4% /12%
74 Profiler(R) NBC/ 6.1% /11%
76 Sliders FOX/ 5.8% /11%
77 Millenium(R) FOX/ 5.7% /10%
79 Lois & Clark ABC/ 5.1% / 9%
83 Dark Skies NBC/ 4.6% / 9%
83 Voyager UPN/ 4.6% / 7%
--- The Burning Zone UPN/ pre-empted
SYNDICATED: February 10-16 (three weeks ago)
Rank Net/Rating
-- Xena MCA/ 7.7
-- Hercules MCA/ 6.9
-- Deep Space Nine Par/ 6.0
-- Outer Limits ???/ 3.6
-- Babylon 5 PTN/ 3.4
CURRENT SEASON RATINGS:
Lois X Dark Mill Pro Pre Slide VOY DS9 Her Xen B 5
9/02 ---- (R) ---- ---- --- (R) *5.9 (R) (R) (R) (R)
9/09 ---- (R) ---- ---- --- (R) 5.2 (R) (R) (R) (R)
9/16 *7.7 (R) *8.1 ---- *9.2 *5.6 4.3 (R) (R) (R) (R)
9/23 8.5 (R) 7.4 ---- 8.5 5.6 5.1 (R) (R) (R) (R)
9/30 9.4 *13.2 --- ---- --- 7.2 4.3 4.5 4.3 4.3 *3.0
10/07 7.8 11.9 --- ---- --- 6.5 4.7 *5.6 *5.8 *5.3 3.6
10/14 8.3 11.3 5.7 ---- 7.8 6.3 (R) 6.0 5.4 5.6 3.1?
10/21 7.2 11.7 4.7 *11.9 6.6 --- (R) 5.7 5.8 5.4 3.3?
10/28 --- 12.3 6.2 8.1 8.0 5.9 4.6 5.0 5.2 5.5 3.4?
11/04 7.8 11.1 6.0 8.1 7.5 6.1 5.6 ??? 5.7 5.2 *3.6
11/11 7.6 10.7 6.3 7.6 8.7 5.4 5.8 7.7 6.1 5.7 3.7
11/18 8.1 12.2 --- 7.6 --- 5.6 4.7 7.0 6.4 6.3 3.6?
11/25 --- 10.6 --- 7.2 --- 5.2 4.7 6.0 6.2 6.3 3.6?
12/02 5.4 (R) 4.9 7.5 (R) (R) 5.7 (R) 6.0 5.5 5.1 ???
>>>>>>>FALL GAA(REPEATED VIEWINGS) AVERAGE RATINGS>>6.5 6.2 6.1 3.7<<
12/09 7.1 10.7 4.7 (R) 7.7 7.5 --- 4.9 5.2 5.1 5.6 ???
12/16 --- (R) --- 6.8 --- ??? 6.0 (R) 5.1 5.5 5.4 ???
12/23 --- (R) --- (R) --- ??? (R) (R) 4.1 5.0 4.5 ???
12/30 5.5 ---- 6.3 6.9 8.5 8.5 6.0 (R) 4.9 5.0 5.1 ???
1/06 (R) 13.3 4.9 7.1 7.1 7.0 (R) 4.2 6.0 5.8 5.4 ???
1/13 6.4 (R) 5.0 (R) 7.6 7.6 6.0 4.8 6.0 5.3 5.0 ???
1/20 (R) 17.2 --- 7.6 --- (R) (R) (R) ??? 5.9 6.0 ???
1/27 --- 13.0 5.0 8.0 7.9 7.8 6.7 4.6 ??? 5.1 6.1 3.7?
2/03 --- 11.5 4.7 7.1 6.3 6.9 --- 4.6 6.2 6.4 6.3 4.0?
2/10 --- 10.3 --- 6.8 8.0 7.5 --- 5.4 6.0 6.9 7.7 3.4
2/17 --- 10.9 --- 6.4 --- --- 5.3 4.3 ??? ??? ??? 3.2
2/24 5.1 (R) 4.6 (R) (R) (R) 5.8 4.6
OTHER NEWS:
Star Wars: $125.1 million in re-release...$447.9 million since 1977!
The Empire Strikes Back: $40.2 million in re-release.
SWEEPS RATINGS:
>>87< TNG
November Average 6.0
>>88< SomethingOutThere TNG
10/30 9.0 ???
11/07 --- ???
11/14 --- ???
11/21 5.8 ???
11/28 9.5 ???
>>89< QuantumLeap TNG
10/16 ???? 9.6
10/23 10.0 9.6
10/30 9.4 9.9
11/06 10.3 ???
11/13 9.8 ???
11/20 10.4 ???
11/27 12.0 ???
>>90< QuantumLeap TNG
10/29 8.2 11.4
11/05 8.2 12.0
11/12 7.8 ????
11/19 --- 12.0
11/26 8.3 11.5
>>91< QuantumLeap TNG
10/28 11.2 12.3
11/04 10.0 13.4
11/11 9.7 15.4
11/18 11.0 15.4
11/25 11.2 13.9
>>92< Sightings QuantumLeap TNG
10/26 6.3/5.5 8.0 13.2
11/02 6.2/--- --- 13.7
11/09 6.9/--- 9.3 13.5
11/16 6.1/--- 8.9 13.4
11/23 4.8/4.8 9.3 13.2
>>93< Sightings QuantumLeap TNG DS9 B 5
2/01 7.2/6.3 --- 11.3 12.9
2/08 7.1/6.3 7.3 14.1 12.8 B 5
2/15 7.8/7.0 --- 13.1 12.1
2/22 7.5/7.0 7.5 13.8 11.6 pilot movie
3/01 6.6/5.5 9.0 13.8 8.8
>>93< Sightings QuantumLeap TNG DS9
4/26 6.5/6.1 ---- 9.4 9.9
5/03 6.3/5.9 13.7 11.2 9.3
5/10 5.2/4.5 ---- 11.4 9.2
5/17 6.4/6.1 ---- 11.3 9.0
5/24 5.6/5.5 (R) 10.6 9.7
>>93< Lois X Brisco sea TNG DS9
11/01 ---- 6.6 6.0 10.1 12.2 9.7
11/08 9.0 6.5 6.4 --- 12.1 9.2
11/15 11.0 5.4 5.8 9.1 11.6 8.8
11/22 11.5 --- --- 10.6 11.9 9.4
>>94< Lois X Brisco sea Viper TNG DS9 ActionPac B 5
1/24 5.6 4.8 --- --- 7.7 11.8 7.5 8.8 6.9
1/31 10.1 7.6 6.1 8.7 --- 9.7 8.6 ??? ???
2/14 8.5 6.2 5.1 7.7 5.8 11.9 8.2 6.5 ???
2/21 11.7 --- --- 8.7 5.7 11.4 9.5 5.8 ???
>>94< Lois X Brisco sea Crypt TNG DS9 ActionPac B 5
4/25 8.5 8.2 5.8 10.0 ------- 9.9 8.6 ??? ???
5/02 10.2 7.9 --- 10.0 4.9/5.5 11.4 8.3 7.2 ???
5/09 ---- 8.8 4.8 8.7 4.0/4.4 11.3 8.0 6.9 ???
5/16 ---- 5.6 5.0 8.1 4.6/5.3 11.3 8.9 ??? ???
5/23 6.1 6.6 4.0 4.3 4.2/4.3 ???? 6.6 ??? ???
5/30 7.4 6.1 4.0 --- 4.6/4.8 17.4 6.2 ??? ???
>>94< Lois X MANTIS sea E-2 ST6 DS9 ActionPac B 5
10/31 ---- 9.4 5.3 --- 15.6 13.5 7.4 5.8 ???
11/07 11.3 9.5 5.0 9.7 10.5 --- 8.0 6.1 ???
11/14 11.7 9.0 5.6 9.8 8.8 --- 8.1 6.5 ???
11/21 ---- --- --- 10.7 9.7 --- 8.5 6.8 ???
>>95< Lois X MANTIS sea E-2 Crypt VOY DS9 Her Xen B 5
1/30 ---- 11.3 --- --- 7.8 6.2/6.7 8.8 7.4 6.3 --- ???
2/06 11.3 10.3 4.4 --- --- ------- 8.5 8.2 ??? --- ???
2/13 11.3 11.2 5.2 8.5 6.7 ------- 7.9 8.3 ??? --- ???
2/20 10.5 10.1 --- 8.2 6.6 5.6/5.2 7.7 8.1 ??? --- ???
>>95< Lois X VR5 sea E-2 Slide VOY DS9 Her Xen B 5
4/17 (R) (R) 3.8 --- 6.9 6.7 (R) 7.1 ??? --- ???
4/24 ---- 8.9 4.2 7.4 --- 5.9 6.4 6.9 ??? --- ???
5/01 ---- 8.5 3.8 --- --- 6.1 6.4 6.9 5.1 --- ???
5/08 10.1 9.4 4.2 --- --- 5.6 6.1 ??? ??? --- ???
5/22 6.9 8.1 --- 4.4 3.6 --- ??? 6.9 5.6 --- ???
5/29 8.0 7.6 --- --- 6.1 --- 3.9 ??? ??? --- ???
>>95< Lois X Space sea StrLuck VOY DS9 Her Xen B 5
10/23 9.0 9.4 --- --- --- 4.9 7.7 5.8 5.2 3.2?
10/30 10.8 10.2 5.8 6.2 5.6 6.1 7.2 5.8 ??? 3.1?
11/06 12.7 10.4 8.3 6.0 5.9 5.8 7.0 6.4 ??? 3.1?
11/13 ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? 2.9?
11/20 11.3 9.8 5.0 --- --- 5.4 5.3? 5.5? ??? 2.6?
11/27 ---- 12.0 6.4 --- 6.3 5.9 6.9 5.6 5.9 3.2?
>>96< Lois X Space StrLuck Slide VOY DS9 Her Xen B 5
1/29 ???? ???? ??? ??? --- ??? 5.7 7.0 5.5 3.4?
2/05 12.9 10.6 5.0 6.5 --- 5.1 7.0 6.5 5.7 2.9?
2/12 11.6 10.8 4.4 --- --- 6.0 ??? ??? ??? 3.1?
2/17 ???? ???? ??? --- ??? ??? 7.3 6.7 5.7 ????
2/26 7.9 9.3 --- --- 6.2 5.6 6.7 6.5 ??? 3.1?
>>96< Lois X Space DrWho Kindred Slide VOY DS9 Her Xen B 5
4/29 9.3 10.2 --- --- 5.9 4.9 4.7 6.5 4.9 5.0 3.4?
5/06 9.1 9.7 --- --- 5.5 --- 5.0 5.3 5.0 4.7 3.2?
5/13 --- 11.2 --- 5.5 --- --- 4.5 5.6 4.7 5.1 3.2?
5/20 5.4 6.7 2.9 --- --- 4.2 4.9 6.0 5.4 5.1 3.2?
>>96< Lois X Dark Mill Pro Slide VOY DS9 Her Xen B 5
10/28 --- 12.3 6.2 8.1 8.0 5.9 4.6 5.0 5.2 5.5 3.4?
11/04 7.8 11.1 6.0 8.1 7.5 6.1 5.6 ??? 5.7 5.2 3.6
11/11 7.6 10.7 6.3 7.6 8.7 5.4 5.8 7.7 6.1 5.7 3.7
11/18 8.1 12.2 --- 7.6 --- 5.6 4.7 7.0 6.4 6.3 3.6?
11/25 --- 10.6 --- 7.2 --- 5.2 4.7 6.0 6.2 6.3 3.6?
>>97< Lois X Dark Mill Pro Pre Slide VOY DS9 Her Xen B 5
1/27 --- 13.0 5.0 8.0 7.9 7.8 6.7 4.6 ??? 5.1 6.1 3.7?
2/03 --- 11.5 4.7 7.1 6.3 6.9 --- 4.6 6.2 6.4 6.3 4.0?
2/10 --- 10.3 --- 6.8 8.0 7.5 --- 5.4 6.0 6.9 7.7 3.4
2/17 --- 10.9 --- 6.4 --- --- 5.3 4.3
2/24 5.1 (R) 4.6 (R) (R) (R) 5.8 4.6
* Questions, comments, additions, complaints *
* please email Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com *
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Ted McCoy
In article <8580130...@dejanews.com>,
<Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com> wrote:
>SCIENCE FICTION/FANTASY TV RATINGS
>
>CURRENT SEASON RATINGS:
> Lois X Dark Mill Pro Pre Slide VOY DS9 Her Xen B 5
> 2/03 --- 11.5 4.7 7.1 6.3 6.9 --- 4.6 6.2 6.4 6.3 4.0?
> 2/10 --- 10.3 --- 6.8 8.0 7.5 --- 5.4 6.0 6.9 7.7 3.4
> 2/17 --- 10.9 --- 6.4 --- --- 5.3 4.3 ??? ??? ??? 3.2
> 2/24 5.1 (R) 4.6 (R) (R) (R) 5.8 4.6
Just curious, which episodes were attached to those last four B5 ratings?
I'm wondering if the 4.0 was "Into the Fire," and the next two represented
the fallout. Personally, I know at least two formerly semi-regularly B5
viewers who abandoned B5 in disgust after "Into the Fire"'s resolution. I'm
still more or less sticking with the show myself, but I am finding myself
considerably less excited about seeing new episodes now then I was a few weeks
ago.
Ted
Ian J. Ball
[Newsgroups line trimmed...]
In article <8580130...@dejanews.com>, Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com wrote:
> SCIENCE FICTION/FANTASY TV RATINGS
>
> PRIME-TIME: February 24-March 02 (last week)
> Rank Net/Rating/Share
> 41 The X-Files(R) FOX/ 9.6% /15%
> 70 Pretender(R) NBC/ 6.4% /12%
> 74 Profiler(R) NBC/ 6.1% /11%
A continuing trend: "Pretender" beats "Profiler" (first-run or reruns).
> 76 Sliders FOX/ 5.8% /11%
FOX claims to see an "upturn" in "Sliders'" ratings, especially during
Feb. sweeps. Thus the show will not be put on hiatus now, and will run
through May. In other words, renewal looks a lot more likely now.
> 77 Millenium(R) FOX/ 5.7% /10%
> 79 Lois & Clark ABC/ 5.1% / 9%
ABC will soon be moving L&C to Satudays at 8pm. In case you don't know,
Satudays at 8pm is a *deathslot* for ABC. This can not be good news for
the show. I don't care if it was renewed through 1998! It looks to me like
L&C may get cancelled in May.
> 83 Dark Skies NBC/ 4.6% / 9%
This is very frustrating. DS seems to be getting better and better, and
yet no one is there to see it. Too bad, as this show has really grown on
me of late...
Next week: Troy gets to add "Buffy, The Vampire Slayer" to his list! ;)
--
Ian J. Ball | Want my TV episode guides or rec.arts.tv FAQ?
Grad Student, UCLA | http://members.aol.com/IJBall/WWW/IJBall.html
IJB...@aol.com | ftp://members.aol.com/IJBall3/FTP/
i...@ucla.edu | "What to do, with time so short?..."
Matthew Murray
On 10 Mar 1997, Ted McCoy wrote:
> Just curious, which episodes were attached to those last four B5 ratings?
> I'm wondering if the 4.0 was "Into the Fire," and the next two represented
> the fallout. Personally, I know at least two formerly semi-regularly B5
> viewers who abandoned B5 in disgust after "Into the Fire"'s resolution. I'm
> still more or less sticking with the show myself, but I am finding myself
> considerably less excited about seeing new episodes now then I was a few weeks
> ago.
If that's your feeling, Ted, I think it's probably pretty likely
that you have never been particularly excited about watching Babylon 5.
===============================================================================
Matthew Murray - n964...@cc.wwu.edu - http://www.wwu.edu/~n9641343
===============================================================================
The script calls for fusing and using our smarts,
And greatness can come of the sum of our parts.
From now on, I'm with you--and with you is where I belong!
-David Zippel, City of Angels
===============================================================================
Ian J. Ball
In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.970310...@statler.cc.wwu.edu>,
Matthew Murray <n964...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
> If that's your feeling, Ted, I think it's probably pretty likely
> that you have never been particularly excited about watching Babylon 5.
I doubt you can say that, Matthew. And Ted's surely not the only one. I,
myself, have lost at least some interest in B5 after "Into the Fire's"
pretty poor resolution. If it weren't for the EarthGov stuff, I might have
stopped watching entirely (though the last episode, the Minbari one with
Delenn, was surprisingly good).
Erin
> Next week: Troy gets to add "Buffy, The Vampire Slayer" to his list! ;)
I tuned in over Spy Game this week... I really liked Buffy, it kept my
attention a tad more than SG so I might just watch it every week. Anybody
know what timeslot it'll be running in from now on??
Erin
Franklin Hummel
In article <IJBall-1003971255400001@mac_rbk_3.chem.ucla.edu>,
Ian J. Ball <IJB...@aol.com> wrote:
>I doubt you can say that, Matthew. And Ted's surely not the only one. I,
>myself, have lost at least some interest in B5 after "Into the Fire's"
>pretty poor resolution. If it weren't for the EarthGov stuff, I might have
>stopped watching entirely (though the last episode, the Minbari one with
>Delenn, was surprisingly good).
amount of criticism about ItF in there (in addition to what was posted in
SF TV).
Did JMS respond at all to the criticism? Did he have anything to
say about why he ended the Shadow War as he did?
-- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
--
====================================================================
* NecronomiCon, 3rd Edition: The Cthulhu Mythos Convention *
15-17 August 1997, Providence, Rhode Island
Visit our NEW web site at: http://www.necropress.com/necronomicon
Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com
In article <IJBall-1003971047510001@mac_rbk_3.chem.ucla.edu>,
IJB...@aol.com (Ian J. Ball) wrote:
> Next week: Troy gets to add "Buffy, The Vampire Slayer" to his list! ;)
"Oh...rapture!" -Brother Theo, Babylon 5.
Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com
In article <5g1k5s$9kk$3...@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu>,
mc...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ted McCoy) wrote:
>
> In article <8580130...@dejanews.com>,
> <Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com> wrote:
> >SCIENCE FICTION/FANTASY TV RATINGS
> >
> > Lois X Dark Mill Pro Pre Slide VOY DS9 Her Xen B 5
> > 2/03 --- 11.5 4.7 7.1 6.3 6.9 --- 4.6 6.2 6.4 6.3 4.0?
> > 2/10 --- 10.3 --- 6.8 8.0 7.5 --- 5.4 6.0 6.9 7.7 3.4
> > 2/17 --- 10.9 --- 6.4 --- --- 5.3 4.3 ??? ??? ??? 3.2
> > 2/24 5.1 (R) 4.6 (R) (R) (R) 5.8 4.6
>
> I'm wondering if the 4.0 was "Into the Fire," and the next two represented
> the fallout. Personally, I know at least two formerly semi-regularly B5
> viewers who abandoned B5 in disgust after "Into the Fire"'s resolution. I'm
> still more or less sticking with the show myself, but I am finding myself
> considerably less excited about seeing new episodes now then I was a few weeks
> ago.
>
The individual episode ratings are (I believe):
3.7 The Episode Before ITF ;)
4.0 Into the Fire
3.4 Epiphanies
3.2 The Illusion of Truth
??? Atonement
Julie Griffiths
Ian J. Ball wrote:
>
> ABC will soon be moving L&C to Satudays at 8pm. In case you don't know,
> Satudays at 8pm is a *deathslot* for ABC. This can not be good news for
> the show. I don't care if it was renewed through 1998! It looks to me like
> L&C may get cancelled in May.
I heard that Dean Cain was going to hang up the cape as he didn't want
to be identified with the Superman character forever, like his
predecessors,
i.e. George Reeves and Christopher Reeve. In which case, L&C is doomed
anyway.
Julie
Ian J. Ball
In article <3325AA...@arc.ab.ca>, Julie Griffiths
<grif...@arc.ab.ca> wrote:
That's partly true. Cain has publically said that, were it his choice, he
would leave at the end of this season,. He wants to pursue a movie career.
However, he has a contract through year #5, and has said he'll honor it,
if forced to (remember Pierce Brosnan and "Remington Steele"?...).
But Cain's desire to leave is another nail in L&C's coffin, in my opinion.
Bad ratings, moves to even worse timeslots, and a star who wants to leave
(badly!).
That's a recipe for cancellation if ever I've heard one. (In fact, there
is a definite parallel here to what happened with ABC's "My So-Called
Life" and Claire Danes...)
Richard Nelson
In article <IJBall-1003971255400001@mac_rbk_3.chem.ucla.edu> IJB...@aol.com (Ian J. Ball) writes:
>In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.970310...@statler.cc.wwu.edu>,
>Matthew Murray <n964...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>> If that's your feeling, Ted, I think it's probably pretty likely
>> that you have never been particularly excited about watching Babylon 5.
>I doubt you can say that, Matthew. And Ted's surely not the only one. I,
>myself, have lost at least some interest in B5 after "Into the Fire's"
>pretty poor resolution. If it weren't for the EarthGov stuff, I might have
>stopped watching entirely (though the last episode, the Minbari one with
>Delenn, was surprisingly good).
I agree with Ian and Ted[post deleted]. The conclusion in ITF was
little more than the resolution of Infection, with a really big
setup for it.
Since ITF, I have been toying with selling off my entire B5 video
collection, my heart's just not into it as much anymore.
Rick
--
_____________________________________________________________________
_____________________________.sig____________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________
The generic .sig Richard Nelson rble...@ucsd.edu
Dennis Clark
Richard Nelson (rble...@sdcc3.ucsd.edu) wrote:
> In article <IJBall-1003971255400001@mac_rbk_3.chem.ucla.edu> IJB...@aol.com (Ian J. Ball) writes:
> >In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.970310...@statler.cc.wwu.edu>,
> >Matthew Murray <n964...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>
> >> If that's your feeling, Ted, I think it's probably pretty likely
> >> that you have never been particularly excited about watching Babylon 5.
>
> >I doubt you can say that, Matthew. And Ted's surely not the only one. I,
> >myself, have lost at least some interest in B5 after "Into the Fire's"
> >pretty poor resolution. If it weren't for the EarthGov stuff, I might have
> >stopped watching entirely (though the last episode, the Minbari one with
> >Delenn, was surprisingly good).
>
> I agree with Ian and Ted[post deleted]. The conclusion in ITF was
> little more than the resolution of Infection, with a really big
> setup for it.
>
> Since ITF, I have been toying with selling off my entire B5 video
> collection, my heart's just not into it as much anymore.
Jeese guys, you lose interest after the promise of a huge CGI war
goes away? The war was the catalyst to bring a bunch of other brewing
troubles into the open, the Minbari social crisis, EarthDome social crisis,
the Centauri crisis, Narn, SciCorp,... That was the point, the fight crisis
isn't over when the war ends. In my old D&D days we called battle mongers
with no thought as to plot "munchkins", though usually they were the 12
and 13 year olds, no attention span.
Don't give up! Hell, there's plenty more oportunity for fighting left!
I mean, we haven't yet seen how Centauri Prime gets burned, right?
EA is likely to attack B5 at least once more, now that most of the ships
will be going home to help clean up the mess after the First Ones' war
is over... Talk about loose threads! What about the Psisickles? Renegade
Shadow and Vorlon allies? Lots of opportunity for violence 8-P
DLC
--
============================================================================
* Dennis Clark Aristocrat in Training d...@verinet.com *
* Be well, do good work, and stay in touch -- Garrison Keillor *
============================================================================
ljm...@pacbell.net
Ian J. Ball wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.970310...@statler.cc.wwu.edu>,
> Matthew Murray <n964...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>
> > If that's your feeling, Ted, I think it's probably pretty likely
> > that you have never been particularly excited about watching Babylon 5.
>
> I doubt you can say that, Matthew. And Ted's surely not the only one. I,
> myself, have lost at least some interest in B5 after "Into the Fire's"
> pretty poor resolution. If it weren't for the EarthGov stuff, I might have
> stopped watching entirely (though the last episode, the Minbari one with
> Delenn, was surprisingly good).
I'm glad I"m not the only one who feels something's lacking in B5 now.
I used to watch it totally entralled---it was good vs. evil on an epic
scale. Now, with the First Ones and the Vorlons, etc gone, it's just
another space opera, although still good. But I miss the excitement...
some of the most memorable moments involved Kosh (sigh). Maybe JMS
has some surprises in store for us?
Laura
--
To email a reply, change 2002 to 2001
Jose Gonzalez
On 11 Mar 1997, Richard Nelson wrote:
> Since ITF, I have been toying with selling off my entire B5 video
> collection, my heart's just not into it as much anymore.
Although I wouldn't go quite that far, more than one of my friends who
were *huge* B5 fanatics once upon a time have expressed similar
sentiments. After "Into the Fire," one of them gave B5 the worst insults
he could muster, "It's become Voyager." (:
He's only watching now because he's come this far with the show, and
that's about all.
Personally, I thought the resolution was okay. It wasn't terrible, but it
simply isn't a matter of thinking of a better way to resolve it that would
have helped. When you get an ending like that, you start to wonder if the
entire arc was misplayed, and that perhaps something else should have been
done, if this was the only way to end it.
Anyway, I'm with B5 for the long haul. It's not as good as it should be,
and a lot of its potential materializes only rarely, but it's still an
entertaining hour most of the time.
I just wish that "The Coming of Shadows," the undisputed high mark of the
show, hadn't come so early in the run. Makes you wonder if the whole move
to the Shadow conflict wasn't a mistake, seeing as how powerful the
Narn/Centauri conflict proved to be in that episode. (Note how much more
successful the Narn half of "Into the Fire" was.)
Ah well. You take what you can get.
-
Jose Gonzalez
William December Starr
In article <IJBall-1003971047510001@mac_rbk_3.chem.ucla.edu>,
IJB...@aol.com (Ian J. Ball) said:
> In article <8580130...@dejanews.com>,
> Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com wrote:
>
>> SCIENCE FICTION/FANTASY TV RATINGS
>>
>> PRIME-TIME: February 24-March 02 (last week)
>> Rank Net/Rating/Share
>> 41 The X-Files(R) FOX/ 9.6% /15%
>> 70 Pretender(R) NBC/ 6.4% /12%
>> 74 Profiler(R) NBC/ 6.1% /11%
>
> A continuing trend: "Pretender" beats "Profiler" (first-run or reruns).
This topic may have already been hashed out, but... why is
"Profiler" in this report at all? Are Sam's abilities to think
like a criminal and "see" his/her actions considered to be psychic
in nature?
-- William December Starr <wds...@crl.com>
Ian J. Ball
In article <5g586q$i...@crl6.crl.com>, wds...@crl.com (William December
Starr) wrote:
I always though it was in there more for comparisons with "Millennium"
than for the "SF value" of "Profiler". Personally, I don't interpret Sam's
"visions" as "psychic", but me Mum thinks just the opposite! ;>
--
Ian J. Ball | Want to get the rec.arts.tv FAQ, or my other TV
Grad Student | episode guides? Try:
IJB...@aol.com | http://members.aol.com/IJBall/WWW/IJBall.html
i...@ucla.edu | ftp://members.aol.com/IJBall3/FTP/
DJS
Ian J. Ball wrote:(snipped)
> But Cain's desire to leave is another nail in L&C's coffin, in my opinion. Bad ratings, moves to even worse timeslots, and a star who >wants to leave (badly!).
> That's a recipe for cancellation if ever I've heard one. (In fact, >there is a definite parallel here to what happened with ABC's "My >So-Called Life" and Claire Danes...)
Another parallel that comes to mind is the demise of the Beauty and
the Beast series a few years ago. Things started to fall apart
despite a very vocal (albeit relatively small), fan base, when they
couldn't compete in the ratings game.
Consequently the series was shifted around to various time slots,
and towards the end the co-star Linda Hamilton finally just wanted
out. After she was written out of the plot, the new storyline...with a
new actress in tow... never really got out of the starting gate. The
show was cancelled despite last ditch efforts to save it by its fans.
The same kind of deja vu seems to be sneaking it's way into Lois
and Clark. I still maintain (and seem to be of the relative few...)
that they should have kept the romance developing slowly, with
more plots based on their being reporters first, and kept the big
"M" till the very end of the show's run. This way they could have kept
some of the nice romantic tension that they had in the first three
seasons and the fans would still have the big payoff in the end, thus
giving the series a satisfying finish. Might not have made the series
last any longer, but at least many of the plots might not have been
so lame. Some of the best stories have always been when Lois and
Clark are out being the Daily Planet's ace reporters, and how they
relate to one another on that level. It's the wonderful give and
take of two very different, yet quite similar people that give Lois
and Clark it's zing....
But that's just this dog's humble opinion...and who listens to a has-
been Supermutt these days anyway?
Krypto
Mike Barklage
Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com writes:
>In article <5g1k5s$9kk$3...@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu>,
> mc...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ted McCoy) wrote:
>> Just curious, which episodes were attached to those last four B5 ratings?
>> I'm wondering if the 4.0 was "Into the Fire," and the next two represented
>> the fallout. Personally, I know at least two formerly semi-regularly B5
>> viewers who abandoned B5 in disgust after "Into the Fire"'s resolution. I'm
>> still more or less sticking with the show myself, but I am finding myself
>> considerably less excited about seeing new episodes now then I was a few weeks
>> ago.
>The individual episode ratings are (I believe):
>3.7 The Episode Before ITF ;)
>4.0 Into the Fire
>3.4 Epiphanies
>3.2 The Illusion of Truth
>??? Atonement
Hmmm... looks like there was a peak on either side of ITF. Although I
thought ITF was a little dissapointing, I will give it the benefit of the
doubt -- the lost viewers the following weeks could have just been the
war-mongers looking for a big battle episode (and don't give a hoot about
the Earth or Minbari stories to follow). In other words, B5 was going to
lose ratings numbers over the next few eps whether ITF had been a great
episode or not.
Mike Barklage
World's Worst Computer Programmer -- MSTie #19634 -- bark...@ucsu.colorado.edu
For MiSTings and Ed Wood items, link to http://rtt.colorado.edu/~barklage
"In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded." -- Terry Pratchett
Ian J. Ball
In article <5g4ntj$7o6$1...@cactus.verinet.com>, d...@verinet.com (Dennis
Clark) wrote:
> Richard Nelson (rble...@sdcc3.ucsd.edu) wrote:
> >
> > Since ITF, I have been toying with selling off my entire B5 video
> > collection, my heart's just not into it as much anymore.
>
> Jeese guys, you lose interest after the promise of a huge CGI war
> goes away?
That's not really fair, Dennis. Sure, I would like to have seen a
mega-battle that would have taken place over 2-episodes. But that's not
what turned me off about ItF.
What turned me off was the way the whole resolution was handled. There are
many points on this which I don't feel like totally going in to. But
basically, the dialogue during the resolution was very *clunky*, and very
unsatisfying. And as many others have pointed out, there was almost
*nothing* sacrificed to achieve this resolution. It was easy. It cost
*nothing* that we the viewers really cared about. It cost nothing to the
Vorlons and Shadows as well. This last point (that the Vorlons and Shadows
were let off the hook) *really* irks me.
What really pisses me off overall, though, was that a show that "prides
itself on not taking the easy way out" *took* the easy way out in ItF.
> The war was the catalyst to bring a bunch of other brewing
> troubles into the open, the Minbari social crisis, EarthDome social crisis,
> the Centauri crisis, Narn, SciCorp,...
Which is fine, in as far as it goes. I like the EarthGov conflict, and
want to see more of it. But introducing the Shadow War was not necessary
to precipiate these Home World crisies. And once brought up, a *lot* more
should have been done with the ending of the Shadow War.
> Don't give up! Hell, there's plenty more oportunity for fighting left!
Well, though I didn't say it, this was another thing that almost caused me
to lose interest in B5 after ItF: the fact that I am becoming more
convinced that B5 will not be renewed for a 5th season.
I think winding up the Shadow War in season #4 gives WB a perfect excuse
to end B5 this season, and wind up the show in a couple of 2-hour movies.
--
tomlinson
Dennis Clark (d...@verinet.com) wrote:
: Jeese guys, you lose interest after the promise of a huge CGI war
: goes away?
<swear> Why does _everyone_ who positions himself/herself as a
defender of "Into the Fire" automatically assume that all of us,
who expresses some misgiving with the episode, wanted to see a
huge space battle?
If I may quickly summarize an issue on which I have written many
dreary paragraphs: "Into the Fire" failed because it demonstrated
that JMS wished to manipulate B-5's main story thread into a
vehicle for his worldview; this _in itself_ is neither here nor
there (hell, _all_ fiction writers express a worldview in their
work) but his execution was so clumsy, so transparent, and so
unilateral that I was completely repulsed. JMS chose that
weakest of devices, a speech, with which to deliver his dose
of wisdom; he placed it in the mouth of a poorly-drawn
character, with whom were are obviously _meant_ to sympathize;
he weakened all other sides of his argument that _his_ side
came through without hindrance (the Vorlons and the Shadows
he causes to lapse into murderous barbarism); everything
doubled and redoubled to that crucial moment when Sheridan
and Delenn get to mouth JMS's earnest orations. This
"victory" is so contrived and tinged with self-complacence
(e. g. Delenn's "you have lost your way"; Sheridan's
deliberate use of terms such as "child race") that it is
_completely lacking in force_.
"Into the Fire" was the logical end of the path along which
JMS forced the story arc ever since (so far as I can detect)
the end of the second season. This was no local failure.
_Enough_ of this stupid, illogical assumption that we all
want to see violence.
Cheers,
-et
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson | I know thee not, old man: fall to thy prayers;
etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu | How ill white hairs become a fool and jester!
------------------------+ I have long dream'd of such a kind of man,
So surfeit-swell'd, so old, and so profane / But, being awake, I do
despise my dream.
jere7my tho?rpe
In article <IJBall-1103971754370001@mac_rbk_3.chem.ucla.edu>,
IJB...@aol.com (Ian J. Ball) wrote:
* I think winding up the Shadow War in season #4 gives WB a perfect excuse
* to end B5 this season, and wind up the show in a couple of 2-hour movies.
Just a note...JMS has been saying the Shadow War would end in early
season 4 since before it began, as his season 2 quotes on the Lurker's
Guide should bear out. (Actually, he originally planned to end it by the
end of season 3...) On the other hand, he has also said that, had season 5
been assured, ItF probably would have been a 2-parter, so there apparently
was some rushing.
----j7y
******************************** <*> ********************************
jere7my tho?rpe "If they had a King of Fools
University of Pennsylvania then I could wear that crown,
Engineering & Applied Science and you can all die laughing
Office of Undergraduate Education because I'll wear it proudly."
(215) 898-7246 ----Elvis Costello
Dennis Clark
tomlinson (etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu) wrote:
> Dennis Clark (d...@verinet.com) wrote:
> : Jeese guys, you lose interest after the promise of a huge CGI war
> : goes away?
>
> <swear> Why does _everyone_ who positions himself/herself as a
> defender of "Into the Fire" automatically assume that all of us,
> who expresses some misgiving with the episode, wanted to see a
> huge space battle?
I stand corrected.
> If I may quickly summarize an issue on which I have written many
> dreary paragraphs: "Into the Fire" failed because it demonstrated
> that JMS wished to manipulate B-5's main story thread into a
[snip]
> "Into the Fire" was the logical end of the path along which
> JMS forced the story arc ever since (so far as I can detect)
> the end of the second season. This was no local failure.
I don't look at it this way. If we look at the number of
episodes totally dedicated to the Vorlon/Shadow conflict vs.
the number of episodes dedicated to the other conflicts in
the show, the wrap-up of this bit of business is appropriate.
The Vorlons and Shadows were these big boogymen that were
used (however appropriately) to whip the other races and
factions into order. Now that that whip is gone, what will
take its place? Now that everyone is on their own, what
will happen?
As you can tell, I don't feel that big "thunk" that you
and others feel from ItF's wrap-up of the "big" war. I am
looking forward to the other thread's resolutions!
> _Enough_ of this stupid, illogical assumption that we all
> want to see violence.
Again, mea culpa. I stand so guilty, and contrite.
for fun,
Emiko's Agent
Ian J. Ball wrote:
[snip]
> I think winding up the Shadow War in season #4 gives WB a perfect excuse
> to end B5 this season, and wind up the show in a couple of 2-hour movies.
Wind up this newsgroup too, I guess :)
--
Emiko's Agent
-------------------------------------------------------------
EMIKO'S GENESIS: http://www.undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca/~ikim
-------------------------------------------------------------
Cool girls of anime:
Belldandy - better than all the rest, especially Ayanami Rei!
Emiko - ACD officer of Genesis; one spunky pink haired girl!
Others: Ibuki, Chun-li, Cammy, and Sakura! (Street Fighter)
Yuri (Galaxy Fraulien Yuna)! Nuku-Nuku (APCCG Nuku Nuku)!
Lita/Makoto (Sailor Moon)! Mai (Emiko's sidekick, Genesis)!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Kay-Yut Chen
On 10 Mar 1997 20:52:28 GMT, IJB...@aol.com (Ian J. Ball) wrote:
>In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.970310...@statler.cc.wwu.edu>,
>Matthew Murray <n964...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>
>> If that's your feeling, Ted, I think it's probably pretty likely
>> that you have never been particularly excited about watching Babylon 5.
>
>I doubt you can say that, Matthew. And Ted's surely not the only one. I,
>myself, have lost at least some interest in B5 after "Into the Fire's"
>pretty poor resolution. If it weren't for the EarthGov stuff, I might have
>stopped watching entirely (though the last episode, the Minbari one with
>Delenn, was surprisingly good).
>--
I guess I have to add a "me-too" here. My wife and I watches B5
religiously before "Into the Fire" and lately we are less and less
enthusiatic about the show. It has something to do with the easy
resolution of the war and also all the big mysteries seem to have run
their courses.
=====================================================================
| A Traveler between dimensions | |
+ ------------------------------+ |
| |
| In the Kingdom of Drakkar, I am known as <Narius the Mentalist> |
| To the denizens of Britainnia, my name is <Seldon the Avatar> |
| The Terran Confederation pilots call me <One the Cat Slayer> |
| |
| Seldon Dragon |
| #UDIC# |
| |
| <<Kay-Yut Chen>> |
| |
=====================================================================
Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com
> IJB...@aol.com (Ian J. Ball) said:
>
> > In article <8580130...@dejanews.com>,
> > Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com wrote:
> >
> >> SCIENCE FICTION/FANTASY TV RATINGS
> >>
> >> Rank Net/Rating/Share
> >> 41 The X-Files(R) FOX/ 9.6% /15%
> >> 70 Pretender(R) NBC/ 6.4% /12%
> >> 74 Profiler(R) NBC/ 6.1% /11%
> >
>
> This topic may have already been hashed out, but... why is
> "Profiler" in this report at all? Are Sam's abilities to think
> like a criminal and "see" his/her actions considered to be psychic
> in nature?
>
I put in Millenium, because I thought it would be more sci-fi. Then
somene requested Pretender a very similar show...it's close enough to
sci-fi/fantasy to be included. Ditto with Pretender.
Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com
In article <E6vyw...@world.std.com>,
hum...@world.std.com (Franklin Hummel) wrote:
>
> In article <IJBall-1003971255400001@mac_rbk_3.chem.ucla.edu>,
> Ian J. Ball <IJB...@aol.com> wrote:
> >myself, have lost at least some interest in B5 after "Into the Fire's"
> >pretty poor resolution. If it weren't for the EarthGov stuff, I might have
> >stopped watching entirely (though the last episode, the Minbari one with
> >Delenn, was surprisingly good).
>
> amount of criticism about ItF in there (in addition to what was posted in
> SF TV).
>
> Did JMS respond at all to the criticism? Did he have anything to
> say about why he ended the Shadow War as he did?
I don't recall any direct response to the criticism from JMS. He simply
explained that what we saw is what he planned from the beginning. To
paraphrase: "Before the show started, I was asked by _____ what the story
was about, and I told him that it is was about breaking away from your
parents." OK, so the Shadows and the Vorlons are the parents, the First
Ones are the relatives, and the younger races (humans, Minbari, Drazi, et
cetera) are the children who are breaking away.
That's the story JMS wanted to tell, and that's the story we got.
If you didn't like it, well, wait for the next "TV novel" to come along.
Babylon 5 is just like any other book you might pick off the shelf.
Sometimes you get to the end and think, "Wow! That was really good." and
sometimes you reach the end and think, "That's it? I wasted two weeks
reading this piece of crap?" Based on the feedback, it sounds like most
people had the last response.
BUT...
BUT the story isn't over yet, and there are still alot of fights ahead
besides the Shadows. G'Kar said it perfectly.
G’Kar: G’Quon wrote, “There is a greater darkness than the one we fight.
It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way.” The war we fight
is >NOT< against powers and principalities. It is against CHAOS...and
DESPAIR. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope. The
death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender.
Matthew Murray
On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com wrote:
> If you didn't like it, well, wait for the next "TV novel" to come along.
> Babylon 5 is just like any other book you might pick off the shelf.
> Sometimes you get to the end and think, "Wow! That was really good." and
> sometimes you reach the end and think, "That's it? I wasted two weeks
> reading this piece of crap?" Based on the feedback, it sounds like most
> people had the last response.
Your analogy isn't quite correct. Sometimes you reach the end of
a book and think, "Wow! That was really good." Or, sometimes you stop
three or four chapters away from the end and think, "Ugh... They just
did something that I didn't like. I don't care what greater purpose it
served, or what else is going to happen in the rest of the book, I'm just
not going to read the rest of it to find out either way." Based on the
feedback, it sounds like quite a few people had the second response--the
response where, instead of juding the series as a whole, they are judging
the whole before the whole is completed.
Matthew Melmon
> Jeese guys, you lose interest after the promise of a huge CGI war
> goes away? The war was the catalyst to bring a bunch of other brewing
> troubles into the open, the Minbari social crisis, EarthDome social crisis,
> the Centauri crisis, Narn, SciCorp,... That was the point, the fight crisis
> isn't over when the war ends. In my old D&D days we called battle mongers
> with no thought as to plot "munchkins", though usually they were the 12
> and 13 year olds, no attention span.
Into the Fizzle had no thought of plot. That is the problem.
Not the failure of a CGI war to appear "as promised."
The Shadows and the Vorlons of Into the Fizzle were *not*
the same aliens as introduced in seasons one and two. The
conflict between the two was *not* the conflict suggested
in seasons one and two.
If anyone can actually point to illustrations of the Vorlons
going about their "objective" (hell, if anyone can actually
state what the fuck that "objective" was), I encourage them
to knock themselves out trying. The most they ever did was
torture Delenn to make sure she was willing to die as an
unknown soldier. oh la la. Sure sounds like "order" to
me!
The Shadows were better developed. But. In Z'ha'dum and
Fizzle, we were told that the Shadows were interested in
"knocking over the ant-hill and letting the ants fight it
out to see who was stronger." Okay, fine. Standard social
Darwinist fare. But. What the Shadows were actually shown
doing was knocking over the ant hill and spraying the ground
with Raid. They took an active hand in frazzing the younger
races, and were being so effective at it that the ants wanted
to run off and hide. Not exactly "fight it out amongst
yourselves to see who is better" material.
That whole parenting angle - oi, vey, give me a break.
The parenting strategy of the Vorlons: "do what I say because
I say so." Yeah, baby! That works wonders with human children,
age two!
The parenting strategy of the Shadows: "do whatever you want
as long as it involves killing your siblings." Yeah, baby!
We have a winner!
With the exception of Fizzle, I've found season 4 much more
watchable than 3, even enjoyable. A pity the bomb had to drop
so early in the season.
Jonathan Blum
In article <mattm-12039...@melmma1.apple.com>,
Matthew Melmon <ma...@apple.com> wrote:
>The Shadows and the Vorlons of Into the Fizzle were *not*
>the same aliens as introduced in seasons one and two. The
>conflict between the two was *not* the conflict suggested
>in seasons one and two.
Perhaps not the conflict you *thought* they were building up to in seasons
one and two, but the signs are there.
>If anyone can actually point to illustrations of the Vorlons
>going about their "objective" (hell, if anyone can actually
>state what the fuck that "objective" was), I encourage them
>to knock themselves out trying. The most they ever did was
>torture Delenn to make sure she was willing to die as an
>unknown soldier. oh la la. Sure sounds like "order" to
>me!
Wasting Deathwalker because the younger races "are not ready for
immortality", rather than having them make the nasty choice Deathwalker
presented them with on their own, sounds like a big sign that the Vorlons
want order and obediance.
Conditioning the younger races to see them as angels and instinctively
obey them also sounds like it works towards that objective, of having the
child races act the way the Vorlons tell them to. So does using Sheridan
to try to get all the younger races fighting on the same side against the
Shadows.
>The Shadows were better developed. But. In Z'ha'dum and
>Fizzle, we were told that the Shadows were interested in
>"knocking over the ant-hill and letting the ants fight it
>out to see who was stronger." Okay, fine. Standard social
>Darwinist fare. But. What the Shadows were actually shown
>doing was knocking over the ant hill and spraying the ground
>with Raid. They took an active hand in frazzing the younger
>races, and were being so effective at it that the ants wanted
>to run off and hide. Not exactly "fight it out amongst
>yourselves to see who is better" material.
If the ants are so scared that they want to run off and hide, that's the
ants' problem. Just like it's their problem if they get overwhelmed when
their neighbors attack them. When the Shadows attack openly, they're just
giving each of the lesser races a new problem to worry about, to see what
they can cope with. Remember, even when the Shadows were attacking, they
weren't wasting whole races -- sneak attacks, small raids, not a serious
full-on war.
And notice that the moment someone tries to *make* it a serious full-on
war, attacking the Shadow army directly... the Shadows respond by trying
to subvert them, turn them to fight against each other all over again.
That was the whole point of them asking Sheridan to Z'Ha'Dum, after all...
>That whole parenting angle - oi, vey, give me a break.
>The parenting strategy of the Vorlons: "do what I say because
>I say so." Yeah, baby! That works wonders with human children,
>age two!
So they think we're two-year-olds. I kinda figured that was the point.
>The parenting strategy of the Shadows: "do whatever you want
>as long as it involves killing your siblings." Yeah, baby!
>We have a winner!
What, you can't conceive of a parent stirring up sibling rivalry to try to
encourage their kids to outdo each other?
Regards,
Jon Blum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"All this time you two thought you were playing some twisted game of
chess... when it was just me playing solitaire!"
D O C T O R W H O : T I M E R I F T
tomlinson
Jonathan Blum (jb...@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: Wasting Deathwalker because the younger races "are not ready for
: immortality", rather than having them make the nasty choice Deathwalker
: presented them with on their own, sounds like a big sign that the Vorlons
: want order and obediance.
"Comes the Inquisitor", however, works against this, possibly.
The Vorlons send to Delenn a man who, although apparently
motivated by a psychotic desire for order, also harbors a
contempt for blind adherence. He grinds into the dirt those
who believe themselves unique possessors of some _vision_ of
order ("the cog the machine who believes himself the whole of
the machine.")
This could be read any number of ways (back when B-5 kept
up some semblance of ambiguity.) Perhaps Kosh sent Jack
to Delenn on his own hook.
: Conditioning the younger races to see them as angels and instinctively
: obey them also sounds like it works towards that objective, of having the
: child races act the way the Vorlons tell them to. So does using Sheridan
: to try to get all the younger races fighting on the same side against the
: Shadows.
The revelation that the Vorlons possibly engaged in genetic
manipulation and conditioning strikes us all as repugnant, I
daresay. None of us likes to believe that we might be
"manipulated". But consider this: I resist deliberate
manipulation, by tangible outside forces (dictatorial
governments, propaganda, what you will) because I can
easily imagine the state in which such forces are absent.
There exists the possibility that I can _remove_ these
forces by willful action. Yet genetic "manipulation",
occurring as it did before my birth, is entirely outside
my control. It's hard-wired into me. On what do I base
my opposition? I cannot compare myself with an
"unmanipulated" self. I might as well rage against my
reflexes, or against my inability to do without sleep.
: So they think we're two-year-olds. I kinda figured that was the point.
Hell, maybe we are. "I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could
accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne
me..."
Jamie Plummer
William Cameron wrote:
>
> On 11 Mar 1997 05:33:24 GMT, "Erin" <er...@ziplink.net> wrote:
>
> >> Next week: Troy gets to add "Buffy, The Vampire Slayer" to his list! ;)
> >
> >attention a tad more than SG so I might just watch it every week. Anybody
> >know what timeslot it'll be running in from now on??
>
> 9:00 PM EST, with a repeat slot on Sundays apparently, around 5:00
> EST.
Repeat slots, if any, are within the discretion of your local WB
affiliate.
Matthew Melmon
In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.970311194425.29337B-100000@mail>, Jose Gonzalez
<jo...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> wrote:
> (Note how much more successful the Narn half of "Into the Fire" was.)
Londo and G'Kar's story has been so consistently strong
since the beginning that I wonder if it was the backbone
of the original story concept. The Centauri and Narn
civilizations feel, to me, much more "realized" than
any of the others, including the "humans" (both the save-
the-galaxy humans and the strawman evil-badguy humans).
Gharlane of Eddore
Ian J. Ball wrote:(snipped)
>
> But Cain's desire to leave is another nail in L&C's coffin, in my opinion.
> Bad ratings, moves to even worse timeslots, and a star who wants to leave
> (badly!).
> That's a recipe for cancellation if ever I've heard one. (In fact, there
> is a definite parallel here to what happened with ABC's "My So-Called Life"
> and Claire Danes...)
>
In <33261D...@odyssee.net> dkst...@odyssee.net writes:
>
> Another parallel that comes to mind is the demise of the Beauty and
> the Beast series a few years ago. Things started to fall apart
> despite a very vocal (albeit relatively small), fan base, when they
> couldn't compete in the ratings game.
Well, it was a very-slightly-more-expensive-than-average show for
the time, and something very weird happened with the media coverage;
if you go back and look at all the glowing TV GUIDE articles from
the first year, and then take a look at the miserable slimy nasty
references that started to show up later, you'll see that someone at
TVG had it in for the show, badly. Linda Hamilton's voice-over, during
the opening credits, always *did* sound like she was being strangled,
because the lady had never had proper voice coaching, and hadn't
learned to talk without whining. Note that they *did* retrack her
opening voice-over, later on, and it sounded a *lot* better; since
she wasn't stupid, and wasn't without talent, she'd improved a lot.
However, TV GUIDE, which hadn't been able to say enough good about
her, suddenly discovered her voice and acting limitations, and began
dwelling on them.... remember those little uncredited one-liner gags
they were running on the picture pages? Sometimes it seemed like
half of them were slams aimed at BATB. And of course, none of those
sly little digs were *credited*, so there was no one to complain about
but the editors.
Remember that "TV GUIDE" is an advertising-driven publication; I've
always wondered whether Republic and the network just didn't budget
enough advertising bucks to buy more TVG covers and article space,
and thereby earned the wrath of the biggest "protection racket"
in the industry.
One of the producers of BATB has made some pointed remarks about how
hard it is to keep a series in focus when the network is trying to
get you to change it, and your leading lady suddenly shows up and
informs you that oh, by the way, she's having a baby, and she's
leaving the show to get into shape for a movie she's making with
her boyfriend..... he said they were keeping things under control
with the network until that point. The network apparently had zero
faith in a BATB series without Catherine, and wanted them to re-format
the series with Vincent *above* ground, fleeing from city to city,
looking for his lost son. (This way they could lose all the underground
standing sets, and lay off 95% of the regular actors; much cheaper.)
One source swears that a network idea man actually said something like
"It could be like, you know, 'THE FUGITIVE.'"
G.R.R. Martin and Ron Koslow and the rest of the group came up with a
format revision that allowed the use of a substitute main female
character, played rather ably by Jo Anderson, a heckuvvan actress,
and *demonstrated* that they could hold things together and keep the
show in motion without Hamilton, and make it just as interesting.
However, by this time the network was in "kill-the-show" mode, and
pre-empting it..... it didn't help that a major arc episode got
pre-empted by a live link from Red China during the dust-up there,
and instead of holding the film chain and running late to get the
whole episode out on the air, the network just kept it running,
and rejoined the show with a big chunk of narrative missing.
> Consequently the series was shifted around to various time slots,
> and towards the end the co-star Linda Hamilton finally just wanted
> out. After she was written out of the plot, the new storyline...with a
Your order of events is reversed, here; Hamilton wanted out *before*
the show started getting jerked around really badly, and they hacked
out an emergency cliff-hanger sequence that would allow them to use
her in one or two shows at the beginning of the next season, before
dying and passing the torch.
> new actress in tow... never really got out of the starting gate. The
> show was cancelled despite last ditch efforts to save it by its fans.
>
....<deletia; discussion of Lois & Clark>
>
...As far as I'm concerned, "LOIS AND CLARK" has had nothing to offer
since the end of the first season, when they decided to do without
Tracy Scoggins. (They had to do this, because the character and the
actress were both more interesting than "Lois"/Hatcher, and even
when they wrote "Cat" down, they still couldn't destroy her appeal..)
The vast majority of their scripts are pretty silly & unimaginative,
and it's only the production values that make them marginally watchable.
Ian J. Ball
In article <5ga0sh$i...@news.csus.edu>, ghar...@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu
(Gharlane of Eddore) wrote:
> ...As far as I'm concerned, "LOIS AND CLARK" has had nothing to offer
> since the end of the first season, when they decided to do without
> Tracy Scoggins. (They had to do this, because the character and the
> actress were both more interesting than "Lois"/Hatcher, and even
> when they wrote "Cat" down, they still couldn't destroy her appeal..)
> The vast majority of their scripts are pretty silly & unimaginative,
> and it's only the production values that make them marginally watchable.
It wasn't just the removal of Scoggins (which I agree was a huge mistake).
It was all of the following:
1) the removal of Scoggins as "Cat"
2) the removal of John Shea as Lex Luthor
3) the replacing of the superior Michael Landes as Jimmy with that damn
annoying kid!
4) the toning down of Lane Smith as Perry White
5) the removal of Creator Deborah Joy Levine, and her being replaced with
some knuckle-headed shill from ABC
6) the coincident dumbing down of the scripts, co-inciding with the
"villain of the week" stories
All of these factors, which happened between season #1 and #2 destroyed
L&C. I agree with you: in season #1, L&C was one of the best, most
original and most interesting shows on TV. By season #2, it had sunk to
the level of this season of "Sliders".
Not a thing to aspire to...
Jose Gonzalez
On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Matthew Melmon wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.970311194425.29337B-100000@mail>, Jose Gonzalez
> <jo...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> wrote:
>
> > (Note how much more successful the Narn half of "Into the Fire" was.)
Whoops. That should be the "Centauri half" of "Into the Fire." There
*wasn't* a Narn half in that one. (:
Bamfer
Jonathan Blum (jb...@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: In article <mattm-12039...@melmma1.apple.com>,
: Matthew Melmon <ma...@apple.com> wrote:
: >The Shadows and the Vorlons of Into the Fizzle were *not*
: >the same aliens as introduced in seasons one and two. The
: >conflict between the two was *not* the conflict suggested
: >in seasons one and two.
:
: Perhaps not the conflict you *thought* they were building up to in seasons
: one and two, but the signs are there.
:
: >If anyone can actually point to illustrations of the Vorlons
: >going about their "objective" (hell, if anyone can actually
: >state what the fuck that "objective" was), I encourage them
: >to knock themselves out trying. The most they ever did was
: >torture Delenn to make sure she was willing to die as an
: >unknown soldier. oh la la. Sure sounds like "order" to
: >me!
: Wasting Deathwalker because the younger races "are not ready for
: immortality", rather than having them make the nasty choice Deathwalker
: presented them with on their own, sounds like a big sign that the Vorlons
: want order and obediance.
And don't forget the Vorlons were quite ready to destroy the entire station
in the pilot if Sinclair wasn't handed over to them for the attempted
assassination of Kosh. JMS handed everyone a huge clue-by-4 right there,
but most people sort of forgot about it.
: Conditioning the younger races to see them as angels and instinctively
: obey them also sounds like it works towards that objective, of having the
: child races act the way the Vorlons tell them to. So does using Sheridan
: to try to get all the younger races fighting on the same side against the
: Shadows.
End of "Fall of Night": Sheridan says exactly this to Delenn (and Delenn
answers, "It is as you say, a matter of interpretation").
There have been careful clues placed all over the place that the Vorlons
certainly had their own agenda, and that we wouldn't find it necessarily
in our best interests. People as long as two years ago picked up on it,
going by some of the discussions on the newsgroups, starting around the
end of season 2 (some of the more canny viewers were very suspicious of the
Vorlons waaaay back).
Sonja
--lans...@scf.nmsu.edu bam...@acca.nmsu.edu
"There are worlds out there where the sky's burning, and the sea's asleep,
and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere
there's danger. Somewhere there's injustice. Somewhere else the tea's getting
cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do!" -- Doctor to Ace, "Survival"
Matthew Melmon
In article <5g7ome$9...@cappuccino.eng.umd.edu>, jb...@Glue.umd.edu
(Jonathan Blum) wrote:
> In article <mattm-12039...@melmma1.apple.com>,
> Matthew Melmon <ma...@apple.com> wrote:
> >The Shadows and the Vorlons of Into the Fizzle were *not*
> >the same aliens as introduced in seasons one and two. The
> >conflict between the two was *not* the conflict suggested
> >in seasons one and two.
>
> Perhaps not the conflict you *thought* they were building up to in
> seasons one and two, but the signs are there.
No one will deny the quality of narcotics you appear to
have access to. The best mushroom has to be the one where
"Kill your siblings" equates with promoting "sibling rivalry."
Market that one, and you will become fabulously wealthy.
John Burroway
In article <3325FA...@pacbell.net>, ljm...@pacbell.net says...
>I'm glad I"m not the only one who feels something's lacking in B5 now.
>I used to watch it totally entralled---it was good vs. evil on an epic
>scale. Now, with the First Ones and the Vorlons, etc gone, it's just
>another space opera, although still good. But I miss the excitement...
>some of the most memorable moments involved Kosh (sigh). Maybe JMS
>has some surprises in store for us?
I for one am glad that B5 had a bit more than "good vs. evil on an epic scale".
If that had been all there was to the story I would have stopped watching in
the second season. I've seen plenty of good vs. evil stories, and they always
end the same way. Big fight to the death, good guys win, fade to credits. At
least this was fight to impasse, third party good guys win, get on with the
rest of the story.
--
'Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.'
j...@uakron.edu
Andrew Crisp
Ian J. Ball wrote:
>
> That's not really fair, Dennis. Sure, I would like to have seen a
> mega-battle that would have taken place over 2-episodes. But that's not
> what turned me off about ItF.
>
> What turned me off was the way the whole resolution was handled. There are
> many points on this which I don't feel like totally going in to. But
> basically, the dialogue during the resolution was very *clunky*, and very
> unsatisfying. And as many others have pointed out, there was almost
> *nothing* sacrificed to achieve this resolution. It was easy. It cost
> *nothing* that we the viewers really cared about. It cost nothing to the
> Vorlons and Shadows as well. This last point (that the Vorlons and Shadows
> were let off the hook) *really* irks me.
>
> What really pisses me off overall, though, was that a show that "prides
> itself on not taking the easy way out" *took* the easy way out in ItF.
>
saw ITF and a dozen episodes before it. So let me see if I got this
straight...
You're disappointed that the Shadow War ended the way it did, right?
That nobody "lost" anything. From my POV, two races lost big: the
Vorlons and the Shadows.
Remember the parallel: the Vorlons and Shadows as bickering "parents"
(or at least gaurdians) and the rest of us as kids. Now _all_ the kids
stand up and tell the parents to stuff it in their ear. You think that
_doesn't_ hurt? Rejection can tear at someone right to the core. And
this isn't the rejection of a person: it's of a species.
The Vorlons and Shadows had a choice; they could destroy Sheridan's
fleet (no sweat for races that pack planet-killers), maybe even take on
the ships holding the last First Ones. Or they could concede, and leave
the Galaxy en masse, thus sacrificing their role as gaurdians. But
destroying the fleet would only mean that both sides have proven they're
not gaurdians, but puppet-masters. "What is a man profited, if he gains
the entire world yet loses his immortal soul?"
In too much movie SF, the "easy way out" is to shoot it out.
--
Andrew B. Crisp
JET 2
NBCC Moncton
Part-Time Science Fiction writer
tomlinson
Andrew Crisp (mo03...@nbcc.nb.ca) wrote:
<explanation snipped.>
No. You can _say_ that it was not easy, but this was not
demonstrated in the episode itself. All that we have by
which to judge is what we see on screen--which, in this
case, consisted of two speeches, two enemies so demonized
that nothing they say could have any impact upon the
viewer, and a smug epilogue in which Sheridan intones
some lines about child races overseeing the Universe now.
(There is something truly frightening about the idea of
Sheridan, whose manner through the course of the series
evokes an overeager, slightly dim-witted kid, assuming the
mantle of one who has the destiny of the galaxy in his
hands.)
No amount of after-the-fact special pleading can alter
(IMO deliberately) clumsy execution.
Steven W. DiFranco
Matthew Melmon wrote:
>
> In article <5g4ntj$7o6$1...@cactus.verinet.com>, d...@verinet.com (Dennis
> Clark) wrote:
>
> > Jeese guys, you lose interest after the promise of a huge CGI war
> > goes away? The war was the catalyst to bring a bunch of other brewing
> > troubles into the open, the Minbari social crisis, EarthDome social crisis,
> > the Centauri crisis, Narn, SciCorp,... That was the point, the fight crisis
> > isn't over when the war ends. In my old D&D days we called battle mongers
> > with no thought as to plot "munchkins", though usually they were the 12
> > and 13 year olds, no attention span.
>
> Into the Fizzle had no thought of plot. That is the problem.
> Not the failure of a CGI war to appear "as promised."
>
> the same aliens as introduced in seasons one and two. The
> conflict between the two was *not* the conflict suggested
> in seasons one and two.
>
> going about their "objective" (hell, if anyone can actually
> state what the fuck that "objective" was), I encourage them
> to knock themselves out trying. The most they ever did was
> torture Delenn to make sure she was willing to die as an
> unknown soldier. oh la la. Sure sounds like "order" to
> me!
>
> Fizzle, we were told that the Shadows were interested in
> "knocking over the ant-hill and letting the ants fight it
> out to see who was stronger." Okay, fine. Standard social
> Darwinist fare. But. What the Shadows were actually shown
> doing was knocking over the ant hill and spraying the ground
> with Raid. They took an active hand in frazzing the younger
> races, and were being so effective at it that the ants wanted
> to run off and hide. Not exactly "fight it out amongst
> yourselves to see who is better" material.
>
>
> The parenting strategy of the Vorlons: "do what I say because
> I say so." Yeah, baby! That works wonders with human children,
> age two!
>
> as long as it involves killing your siblings." Yeah, baby!
> We have a winner!
>
> watchable than 3, even enjoyable. A pity the bomb had to drop
> so early in the season.
I have heard many people complain that the greatly anticipated fight was
a disappointment, but I disagree. The Vorlons and Shadows were in
dereliction of duty for the last few millenia. They had lost sight of
their true goals, and many viewers fell for JMS's misdirection, as do the
viewers of any good magician. The setup is always supposed to be
surprising in its conclusion. In the first Indiana Jones movie the
writer/director went ti great pains to show Indy's prowess with the
bull-whip. Then, in the market scene where he was confronted by a huge
sword-wielding giant of a man - and the audience was primed for a whip
fight - Indy shoots him. This is what makes a story surprising, when it
does not go as predicted.
--
[ Steven W. DiFranco, CEO WEBCRAFT Data Resources ][ "For the things
which
some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others
set at
naught, and trample under their feet." ][ Sounds like the writings of
2,570 years ago
hit the nail right on the head. ]
rs...@lehigh.edu
In article <332B0C...@apk.net>, "Steven W. DiFranco" <s...@apk.net> writes:
>Matthew Melmon wrote:
>
>I have heard many people complain that the greatly anticipated fight was
>a disappointment, but I disagree. The Vorlons and Shadows were in
>dereliction of duty for the last few millenia. They had lost sight of
>their true goals, and many viewers fell for JMS's misdirection, as do the
>viewers of any good magician. The setup is always supposed to be
>surprising in its conclusion. In the first Indiana Jones movie the
>writer/director went ti great pains to show Indy's prowess with the
>bull-whip. Then, in the market scene where he was confronted by a huge
>sword-wielding giant of a man - and the audience was primed for a whip
>fight - Indy shoots him. This is what makes a story surprising, when it
>does not go as predicted.
>--
>
>[ Steven W. DiFranco, CEO WEBCRAFT Data Resources ][ "For the things
>
I'm sorry, but I cann't resist.
The scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark which you alluded to was NOT what
Spielberg had planned. Originally, Spielberg WANTED a sword/whip fight
between Indy and the large chap. However, there was one slight problem.
Harrison Ford was having some trouble with the end part of his digestive
system, and he was constantly running between takes to go to the bathroom. A
long, drawn out fight as the director wanted wouldn't have been possible.
Instead, Indy draws his gun, and the rest is history. Using this as an
example of a creatoe knowingly setting up the audience for one solution and
then pulling another doesn't quite work out.
As for Into the Fire, I don't mind the way the Shadow War
ended--considering what was established, it was one of the few ways it could
end. What I objected to in this episode was that the writing just couldn't
cut it. Sheridan's speech had to be Homeric, cathartic. He had to be able to
convince the Shadows and Vorlons to end their conflict which had been going on
for millenia. It had to be more powerful than the sacrifices of the two alien
ships (one of which SHOULD have been a major characters, simply for the added
effect). Sheridan's speech had to be sublime. It just wasn't. I didn't want
a great CGI battle. Considering the build up given to this conflict, it's
ending needed to be great. It just wasn't. The writing wasn't there. The
acting wasn't there. It was a shame that the Centauri B-story was handled
better, and that was because it gave the viewer what was needed. The rush of
watching Lando's soldiers blast the two shadows; the destruction of the
island; and, despite the flashback, Morden's head on a pike. All in all, this
episode was average, much like this season.
Robert Holland
> The scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark which you alluded to was NOT what
> Spielberg had planned. Originally, Spielberg WANTED a sword/whip fight
> between Indy and the large chap. However, there was one slight problem.
> Harrison Ford was having some trouble with the end part of his digestive
> system, and he was constantly running between takes to go to the bathroom. A
> long, drawn out fight as the director wanted wouldn't have been possible.
> Instead, Indy draws his gun, and the rest is history. Using this as an
> example of a creatoe knowingly setting up the audience for one solution and
> then pulling another doesn't quite work out.
So, the funniest bit in Indiana Jones happened because the lead
had diarrhea? That would explain the Alan Quartermain film imitation--
the writer had diarrhea.
--RH
Richard Bergstresser
Steven W. DiFranco wrote:
>
> I have heard many people complain that the greatly anticipated fight was
> a disappointment, but I disagree. The Vorlons and Shadows were in
> dereliction of duty for the last few millenia. They had lost sight of
> their true goals, and many viewers fell for JMS's misdirection, as do the
> viewers of any good magician. The setup is always supposed to be
> surprising in its conclusion. In the first Indiana Jones movie the
> writer/director went ti great pains to show Indy's prowess with the
> bull-whip. Then, in the market scene where he was confronted by a huge
> sword-wielding giant of a man - and the audience was primed for a whip
> fight - Indy shoots him. This is what makes a story surprising, when it
> does not go as predicted.
C'mon on! The Shadow War ending WAS predictable. The problem wasn't no BOOM,
or that we were suprised. The problem was wrapping up 1000's of years of conflict
with 5 minutes of weak dialogue. That's what we are complaining about.
William December Starr
In article <333dc6bd...@news.earthlink.net>,
ori...@earthlink.net (orionca) said:
> Actually, Indy WAS supposed to take out the swordsman with his
> whip. Unfortunately, Harrison Ford wasn't quite good enough with
> a whip and kept blowing take after take. Finally, after about
> 10-15 failed attempts to snap the sword out of the Arab's hand
> with his whip, on the next take Harrison said, "Ah, the hell with
> it!", whipped out his revolver, and shot. Speilburg et al yelled,
> "CUT" and stood around staring at each other for a while, before
> someone finally said, "Well, that IS what Indiana Jones would
> do..." and rewrote it into the script.
I hope by "and shot" you meant "and pointed the gun at the other guy
and said "BANG!" or something. Ford's too intelligent, I think, to
ever point a gun at someone and actually pull the trigger unless the
(1) scene calls for it and (2) the production's weapons master has
explicitly set up the weapon and personally handed it to him. (And
if Ford _was_ sufficiently delirious from the heat to do such a
thing, all that would happen anyway would probably be a click, as no
weapons master is ever going to rig a gun with blanks for a scene in
which the weapons isn't supposed to even be drawn, let alone fired.)
The version of the story that I heard, for what it's worth, was that
the originally planned bullwhip-versus-sword fight was dropped
because Ford, who actually got to be pretty good with the whip, had
had dysentery and wasn't physically up to doing all the derring-do
on the day scheduled for the shot, so somebody -- possibly Ford --
suggested that Jones just shoot the guy.
William December Starr
In article <332B0C...@apk.net>,
"Steven W. DiFranco" <s...@apk.net> said:
> I have heard many people complain that the greatly anticipated
> fight was a disappointment, but I disagree.
So do I. It wasn't the absence of a big space battle that was
disappointing; it was the absence of a satisfying resolution to a
major storyline.
> The Vorlons and Shadows were in dereliction of duty for the last
> few millenia. They had lost sight of their true goals, and many
> viewers fell for JMS's misdirection, as do the viewers of any good
> magician. The setup is always supposed to be surprising in its
> conclusion. In the first Indiana Jones movie the writer/director
> went ti great pains to show Indy's prowess with the bull-whip.
> Then, in the market scene where he was confronted by a huge
> sword-wielding giant of a man - and the audience was primed for a
> whip fight - Indy shoots him. This is what makes a story
> surprising, when it does not go as predicted.
That scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark," like a good magic trick,
had a satisfying payoff which made the audience feel that it had
been misdirected for a good, entertaining cause.
"Into the Fire" just had an "And then the author waved his hands
and made the problem go away" payoff. Bleah, says I.
Ian J. Ball
In article <5gil46$8...@crl7.crl.com>, wds...@crl.com (William December
Starr) wrote:
> "Into the Fire" just had an "And then the author waved his hands
> and made the problem go away" payoff. Bleah, says I.
And "Ditto", says me...
Matt Ackeret
In article <5gil46$8...@crl7.crl.com>,
William December Starr <wds...@crl.com> wrote:
>In article <332B0C...@apk.net>,
>"Steven W. DiFranco" <s...@apk.net> said:
>> conclusion. In the first Indiana Jones movie the writer/director
>> went ti great pains to show Indy's prowess with the bull-whip.
>> Then, in the market scene where he was confronted by a huge
>> sword-wielding giant of a man - and the audience was primed for a
>> whip fight - Indy shoots him. This is what makes a story
>> surprising, when it does not go as predicted.
>That scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark," like a good magic trick,
The scene in "Raiders" was not intended to be done that way. There was
a big long choreographed fight with the whip, but Harrison Ford wasn't
getting as good as he thought he should be, so he ad libbed shooting
the guy.
--
mat...@apple.com
Anthony Renaud
William December Starr wrote:
> The version of the story that I heard, for what it's worth, was that
> the originally planned bullwhip-versus-sword fight was dropped
> because Ford, who actually got to be pretty good with the whip, had
> had dysentery and wasn't physically up to doing all the derring-do
> on the day scheduled for the shot, so somebody -- possibly Ford --
> suggested that Jones just shoot the guy.
I also heard this version of the story during a special on Speilberg on
the Discovery channel, and I recall it was Ford who suggested he just
shoot the guy.
-Tony
Richard Nelson
>I have heard many people complain that the greatly anticipated fight was
>a disappointment, but I disagree. The Vorlons and Shadows were in
>dereliction of duty for the last few millenia. They had lost sight of
>their true goals, and many viewers fell for JMS's misdirection, as do the
>viewers of any good magician. The setup is always supposed to be
>surprising in its conclusion. In the first Indiana Jones movie the
>writer/director went ti great pains to show Indy's prowess with the
>bull-whip. Then, in the market scene where he was confronted by a huge
>sword-wielding giant of a man - and the audience was primed for a whip
>fight - Indy shoots him. This is what makes a story surprising, when it
>does not go as predicted.
The problem wasn't that there was misdirection, it was what we were
misdirected into. What we got was stupidity. From Sheridans poor
tactics (Oh, they're fighting each other, lets make them both attack
us while they're still at full strength). To Lorien's idiotic
musings ("The universe decided we shouldn't be immortal..."). Ugh,
give me a break. And of course the Vorlons and Shadows:
Sheridan: Hey you guys are being stupid!
V&S: WAAAAAH Johnny called us stupid!
Daddy take us away from here. Sniff.
These were supposed to be advanced races, and we got dumb and
dumber. If I wanted to see stupid characers doing and saying stupid
things, I'd watch Friends. And before anyone else comments that I
was just hoping for a cgi battle that didn't happen, let me point
out that there *was* a big cgi battle. There was just a resolution
that made much of the prevous 3 years a pointless waste of time.
BTW, if the final scene of the final episode was a shot of Ivonova
waking up and saying "What a wild dream." would you think it a
magical misdirection? It would be a surprize, but it would still
suck.
Rick
--
_____________________________________________________________________
_____________________________.sig____________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________
The generic .sig Richard Nelson rble...@ucsd.edu
Gharlane of Eddore
"AL" <=> Attribution Lost
AL> The scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark which you alluded to was NOT what
AL> Spielberg had planned. Originally, Spielberg WANTED a sword/whip fight
AL> between Indy and the large chap. However, there was one slight problem.
AL> Harrison Ford was having some trouble with the end part of his digestive
AL> system, and he was constantly running between takes to go to the bathroom.
AL> A long, drawn out fight as the director wanted wouldn't have been possible.
AL> Instead, Indy draws his gun, and the rest is history. Using this as an
AL> example of a creatoe knowingly setting up the audience for one solution
AL> and then pulling another doesn't quite work out.
In <332C68...@wco.com> Robert Holland <rhol...@wco.com> writes:
>
> So, the funniest bit in Indiana Jones happened because the lead
> had diarrhea?
The version I heard was that Harrison Ford and the stunt guy with the
sword worked it out in advance, but hadn't told anyone what they were
going to do, including the director. Of course, this is strictly
hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt.
> That would explain the Alan Quartermain film imitation--
> the writer had diarrhea.
The name in the title of the two Golan-Globus efforts was "QUATERMAIN,"
not "Quartermain." To this day I think the only thing they did that
was really criminally wrong was to cast Richard Chamberlain in the lead.
Allan Quatermain should be played by someone who's a bit more of an
Old Africa Hand in appearance... Chamberlain will always have the
air of Doctor Kildare about him.
I've lost track of how many different movie versions there have been
of certain of the classic Quatermain adventures, but they started
in silent films, and with any luck, won't ever stop.
There are something like two dozen volumes of the Allan Quatermain
stories extant, and "NADA THE LILY," the novel about Umslopogaas,
the Zulu hero-king, would make a pretty good movie all by itself.
H. Rider Haggard was a proximate source for most of the adventure
novels of the first quarter of this century, a primary source for
many of the schticks that E.R. Burroughs recycled in "TARZAN"
novels, and was so well regarded that Rudyard Kipling worked with
him on a few scenarios and texts..... and Haggard was knighted in
1912 (at age 56) primarily for his novels (although his service to
the Crown in Africa was certainly exemplary and respectable.)
Note: Golan-Globus did a strange bit of casting in the "CITY OF GOLD"
movie. The red-haired vixen queen, who has almost zero lines, just a
mostly-bare body, and is last seen plummeting into the lava, was played
by "Elvira, Mistress Of The Dark," better known as Cassandra Peterson.
Benjamin James Lomax
Richard Nelson wrote:
>
> In article <332B0C...@apk.net> "Steven W. DiFranco" <s...@apk.net> writes:
>
> >I have heard many people complain that the greatly anticipated fight was
> >a disappointment, but I disagree. The Vorlons and Shadows were in
> >dereliction of duty for the last few millenia. They had lost sight of
> >their true goals, and many viewers fell for JMS's misdirection, as do the
> >viewers of any good magician. The setup is always supposed to be
> >surprising in its conclusion.
>
> misdirected into. What we got was stupidity. From Sheridans poor
> tactics (Oh, they're fighting each other, lets make them both attack
> us while they're still at full strength).
This is only stupid if you think that Sheridan wanted the Vorlons and
Shadows to kill each other, which he obviously did not. Would there
have been a difference if he had waited? Not really, but perhaps they
would have decided that fighting each other was not what it was about,
which seemed to be their opinion previously to this. If so, all that
preparation by the AoL would have been for naught. Sheridan couldn't
take that chance.
> To Lorien's idiotic
> musings ("The universe decided we shouldn't be immortal..."). Ugh,
Not particularly deep, but important to the way that JMS has developed
his universe. Just because it doesn't agree with your philosophy doesn't
make it idiotic.
> give me a break. And of course the Vorlons and Shadows:
>
> Sheridan: Hey you guys are being stupid!
> V&S: WAAAAAH Johnny called us stupid!
When did this dialogue take place? I have thought for some time that
maybe this episode aired differently in other people's homes, so
this must prove it. In the ep. that I watched, nothing remotely
similar to this took place.
> Daddy take us away from here. Sniff.
>
They asked him to go with them, not take them away and if they
weren't already childish, how do you explain their motivations
up until now? The whole point, that it seems some people have
not picked up on, was that if the S's and V's had developed
sufficient maturity, they would have left with the rest of the
First Ones. They were technologically far superior, but they
hadn't developed enough to know what to do with it, so they
played games with the lesser races. It wasn't just the lesser
races throwing off the yoke, it was the growth of the Vorlons
and the Shadows as well.
> These were supposed to be advanced races, and we got dumb and
> dumber. If I wanted to see stupid characers doing and saying stupid
I believe if you pay attention to the earlier episodes, this,
what you call stupidity, has been well developed. That pseudo-deep
crap that the Vorlons threw out was transparent and the Shadows
never appeared advanced in any way other than technological. I
really don't get people that are amazed with how the S's and V's
turned out. We had all the clues we needed, people!
> things, I'd watch Friends. And before anyone else comments that I
> was just hoping for a cgi battle that didn't happen, let me point
> out that there *was* a big cgi battle. There was just a resolution
> that made much of the prevous 3 years a pointless waste of time.
>
The fact that you, and others, say that proves that you weren't
watching those previous three years very closely. Firstly, JMS
has said, for those who weren't paying attention, that B5 is not
about the Shadow War, it is about the development of the characters
on B5! Also, much of the previous three years, even if constrained
to developing the Shadow War, which it wasn't, was laboriously
constructed for just this ending. JMS wrote all of this stuff
years ago in his head, to say that he was dismissing it all is
just plain ignorant.
> BTW, if the final scene of the final episode was a shot of Ivonova
> waking up and saying "What a wild dream." would you think it a
> magical misdirection? It would be a surprize, but it would still
> suck.
>
That would be true, but nothing similar to what we did get. Even
those who don't have any idea what is going on would have to
agree with that.
Ben
P.S. I'm just about through with finals, so all the flames by
those who feel insulted by the above, as they should, are
welcome to respond.
Maro Adams
Matt Ackeret wrote:
> The scene in "Raiders" was not intended to be done that way. There was
> a big long choreographed fight with the whip, but Harrison Ford wasn't
> getting as good as he thought he should be, so he ad libbed shooting
> the guy.
I loved that scene. :)
Junsok Yang
In article <332CB9...@erols.com>, rich...@erols.com says...
>C'mon on! The Shadow War ending WAS predictable. The problem wasn't no
BOOM,
>or that we were suprised. The problem was wrapping up 1000's of years of
conflict
>with 5 minutes of weak dialogue. That's what we are complaining about.
Agreed. For all the lauded ability of B5 to set up future events, they
didn't set up *THE* future event they needed to set up.
--
****************************************************************
"We tend to love in dark corners and hate in a large
crowd."...Kim Huber CNN Sports (CNN HN 7/28/96)
Junsok Yang (yan...@yalevm.cis.yale.edu)
Franklin Hummel
In article <IJBall-1303971537080001@mac_rbk_3.chem.ucla.edu>,
Ian J. Ball <IJB...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>3) the replacing of the superior Michael Landes as Jimmy with that damn
> annoying kid!
whenever I watch LOIS AND CLARK now and he appears, I channel-surf until
he is gone. (I gave up on last Sunday's episode where he was a major
part of the storyline and just watched something else.)
I recall reading when he was picked as the new Olson that this was
in part due to a similarity in appearance to Jonathan Brandise(?) on the
then-still-on SEAQUEST. -That- just shows now L&C had taken a wrong turn
and was heading in a bad direction.
-- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
--
====================================================================
* NecronomiCon, 3rd Edition: The Cthulhu Mythos Convention *
15-17 August 1997, Providence, Rhode Island
Visit our NEW web site at: http://www.necropress.com/necronomicon
Doug Mertaugh
Richard Bergstresser <rich...@erols.com> wrote:
>Steven W. DiFranco wrote:
>>
>> I have heard many people complain that the greatly anticipated fight was
>> a disappointment, but I disagree. The Vorlons and Shadows were in
>> dereliction of duty for the last few millenia. They had lost sight of
>> their true goals, and many viewers fell for JMS's misdirection, as do the
>> viewers of any good magician.
He foreshadowed the fact that they had lost sight of their
purpose (or had a faulty one to begin with) for several
episodes, since at least Sheridan's trip to Za'ha'dum. The
only "misdirection" was making us believe the war would
end realistically.
The setup is always supposed to be
>> surprising in its conclusion. In the first Indiana Jones movie the
>> writer/director went ti great pains to show Indy's prowess with the
>> bull-whip. Then, in the market scene where he was confronted by a
huge
>> sword-wielding giant of a man - and the audience was primed for a whip
>> fight - Indy shoots him. This is what makes a story surprising, when it
>> does not go as predicted.
That you compare that to the Shadow War says a lot in itself.
The Indy Jones scene you describe was done as a comedy scene,
funny by being unsuspected. Surprise and lack of predictability
are fine as long as the conclusion makes sense, which this
one didn't.
Mac
On 16 Mar 1997 21:48:10 -0800, wds...@crl.com (William December
Starr) wrote:
>
>In article <333dc6bd...@news.earthlink.net>,
>ori...@earthlink.net (orionca) said:
>
>> Actually, Indy WAS supposed to take out the swordsman with his
>> whip. ... Finally, ... Harrison said, "Ah, the hell with
>> it!", whipped out his revolver, and shot. etc.
Great story.
>
>I hope by "and shot" you meant " ....
>The version of the story that I heard was that
>the originally planned bullwhip-versus-sword fight was dropped
>because Ford, got ... dysentery etc.
>-- William December Starr <wds...@crl.com>
>
A good story, and most probably the truer of the two. But, geez, the
first one is such a great story .
Of course, on the other hand, I like to think that every time a bell
rings an angel really does get it's wings.
Too bad most of the great stories aren't real.
Mac
Richard Nelson
In article <332E12...@sprintmail.com> benjam...@sprintmail.com writes:
>Richard Nelson wrote:
>>
>> In article <332B0C...@apk.net> "Steven W. DiFranco" <s...@apk.net> writes:
>> tactics (Oh, they're fighting each other, lets make them both attack
>> us while they're still at full strength).
>This is only stupid if you think that Sheridan wanted the Vorlons and
>Shadows to kill each other, which he obviously did not. Would there
>have been a difference if he had waited? Not really, but perhaps they
>would have decided that fighting each other was not what it was about,
>which seemed to be their opinion previously to this. If so, all that
>preparation by the AoL would have been for naught. Sheridan couldn't
>take that chance.
He could have easily waited a bit, let the shadows and vorlons
whittle themselves down a bit, then set off a couple of nukes to
get their attention. Since the AoL was not big enough to take out
both sides directly, he should have taken any advantage he could
get, do anything to improve the odds of his side surviving. Also,
the stronger his forces were relative to the V&S the more likely
they would listen earlier.
>> To Lorien's idiotic
>> musings ("The universe decided we shouldn't be immortal..."). Ugh,
>Not particularly deep, but important to the way that JMS has developed
>his universe. Just because it doesn't agree with your philosophy doesn't
>make it idiotic.
No it was not important to the way the B5 universe was developed.
Joe could have made Lorien the last of the first race to develope
immortality and not lost anything. Instead it comes off sounding
like new age doofiness. Remeber when B5 started, Joe talked about
trying to make the show feel real. Having "the universe" deciding
things shatters that feeling.
>They asked him to go with them, not take them away and if they
>weren't already childish, how do you explain their motivations
I would have infinitly prefered them to be arrogant, not childish
and stupid. It is a complete cop out to make the adversaries
stupid but powerfull (I'll admit it worked in Spaced Invaders, but
comedy is different).
>up until now? The whole point, that it seems some people have
>not picked up on, was that if the S's and V's had developed
>sufficient maturity, they would have left with the rest of the
>First Ones. They were technologically far superior, but they
WHY!!!! That is something that absolutely does not make sense.
Why should the first ones leave the galaxy, or should I say why
should *all* of them leave.
>hadn't developed enough to know what to do with it, so they
>played games with the lesser races. It wasn't just the lesser
>races throwing off the yoke, it was the growth of the Vorlons
>and the Shadows as well.
They shouldn't have needed it. It weakend the V&S and cheapened
the victory by the AoL.
>> These were supposed to be advanced races, and we got dumb and
>> dumber. If I wanted to see stupid characers doing and saying stupid
>
>I believe if you pay attention to the earlier episodes, this,
>what you call stupidity, has been well developed. That pseudo-deep
There was still room for intelligence, but we didn't get it. Sigh,
it seems I was hoping for too much.
>> out that there *was* a big cgi battle. There was just a resolution
>> that made much of the prevous 3 years a pointless waste of time.
>The fact that you, and others, say that proves that you weren't
>watching those previous three years very closely. Firstly, JMS
>has said, for those who weren't paying attention, that B5 is not
>about the Shadow War, it is about the development of the characters
>on B5! Also, much of the previous three years, even if constrained
No, B5 was not just about the Shadow War, but it is not just about
the development of the characters either. B5 is constructed as an
epic saga. The characters do develope, as they should, but there
is an overall story, aka 'The Arc'. The Shadow War was a
significant part of the overall arc since season 1. The resolution
of it left a foul taste in my mouth, and therefore soured my
appatite for the rest of the show.
>to developing the Shadow War, which it wasn't, was laboriously
>constructed for just this ending. JMS wrote all of this stuff
>years ago in his head, to say that he was dismissing it all is
>just plain ignorant.
Ah, I see the problem, 'pointless' was a poor choice of words on my
part. I still think the ending wasted the great setup it was
given.
>> BTW, if the final scene of the final episode was a shot of Ivonova
>> waking up and saying "What a wild dream." would you think it a
>> magical misdirection? It would be a surprise, but it would still
>> suck.
>That would be true, but nothing similar to what we did get. Even
>those who don't have any idea what is going on would have to
>agree with that.
You missed my point (or you are being deliberately obtuse).
You said in effect that surprise is good, and we are just reacting
poorly to being misdirected. I was pointing out the surprise and
misdirection are only as good as the final result. The final result
of ITF was a dissapointment.
Benjamin James Lomax
Richard Nelson wrote:
>
> >This is only stupid if you think that Sheridan wanted the Vorlons and
> >Shadows to kill each other, which he obviously did not. Would there
> >have been a difference if he had waited? Not really, but perhaps they
> >would have decided that fighting each other was not what it was about,
> >which seemed to be their opinion previously to this. If so, all that
> >preparation by the AoL would have been for naught. Sheridan couldn't
> >take that chance.
>
> He could have easily waited a bit, let the shadows and vorlons
> whittle themselves down a bit, then set off a couple of nukes to
> get their attention. Since the AoL was not big enough to take out
> both sides directly, he should have taken any advantage he could
> get, do anything to improve the odds of his side surviving. Also,
> the stronger his forces were relative to the V&S the more likely
> they would listen earlier.
>
to listen. It was really irrelevant. They were there in case they
refused to listen, so that they could die well. Sheridan said that
they couldn't win anyway. Now if he would have waited in the hope
that they blew each other away, he might have been able to defeat
them, but that wasn't his objective. Not ever. He was risking all
of the AoL on his hunch, which paid off.
> >Not particularly deep, but important to the way that JMS has developed
> >his universe. Just because it doesn't agree with your philosophy doesn't
> >make it idiotic.
>
> No it was not important to the way the B5 universe was developed.
> Joe could have made Lorien the last of the first race to develope
> immortality and not lost anything. Instead it comes off sounding
> like new age doofiness. Remeber when B5 started, Joe talked about
> trying to make the show feel real. Having "the universe" deciding
> things shatters that feeling.
>
For you it does, but not for me. First of all, what is the difference
between first and last? Who cares if the first race was immortal
or not? Since nothing and noone that we know of is immortal, how
do we know that that isn't the way it is? This is Joe's vision,
and to say that he has betrayed that vision has to be inaccurate,
by its very precept. He wrote ITF just as well as he wrote CoS, or
Gray-17, for that matter. You have fallen into the trap that I
guess a lot of B5 fans have. They think because they like things
that happen on the show that they know its vision. Only one person
knows the vision of B5 and he is telling it to us. ITF happened
the way that JMS wanted it to, otherwise he would have told us so.
Obviously what you feel is real is not the same as JMS. Not to
slight your opinion, but thank god that JMS has not listened to
those who tried to dictate his vision so far, otherwise we
would just have more Drek.
> >They asked him to go with them, not take them away and if they
> >weren't already childish, how do you explain their motivations
>
> I would have infinitly prefered them to be arrogant, not childish
> and stupid. It is a complete cop out to make the adversaries
> stupid but powerfull (I'll admit it worked in Spaced Invaders, but
> comedy is different).
>
They weren't stupid, they were immature, which is a lot different.
I will however, concede that it would have been cooler if they
would not have turned out to be so childish. However, we have
had petulant foreshadowing from both sides which made this not
too much of a surprise.
> >up until now? The whole point, that it seems some people have
> >not picked up on, was that if the S's and V's had developed
> >sufficient maturity, they would have left with the rest of the
> >First Ones. They were technologically far superior, but they
>
> WHY!!!! That is something that absolutely does not make sense.
> Why should the first ones leave the galaxy, or should I say why
> should *all* of them leave.
>
That makes a lot of sense. Why did Ironheart leave? When you
have the whole universe opened up to you, why stay in the
same backyard for eons? G'kar said that we were less than
ants to the First Ones. Why would you stay in the bedroom
of your mother's house when you were an adult, with the
ability to live your own life? There are bigger and better
things out there. Do you think that when space travel is
reasonable that we won't do it? Think again. The only
First Ones left were obviously there due to some personal
inadequacies, which made them feel like they weren't good
enought to leave the sandbox and play with the other kids.
Overly simplistic, I know, but I am convinced that this is
part of the whole message Joe is trying to give us. Not
just that we need to grow beyond out supervisors, but that
our supervisors need to grow beyond us even more.
> >hadn't developed enough to know what to do with it, so they
> >played games with the lesser races. It wasn't just the lesser
> >races throwing off the yoke, it was the growth of the Vorlons
> >and the Shadows as well.
>
> They shouldn't have needed it. It weakend the V&S and cheapened
> the victory by the AoL.
>
Why not? The problem with them was that they hadn't grown in
millions of years, we had lots of indications (and outright
statements) of that fact. I just don't understand this line
of thinking. Is every old person you know mature and wise?
I don't think so. Surely it weakened the V's and S's, that's
the whole point. If they hadn't been weak, they wouldn't have
been in that position in the first place. The AoL did get
off easy, but that was what Sheridan was hoping for. If he
had been wrong, they would all have been dead. The vibe I am
getting from you is that the only acceptable ending would have
been the death of both the V's and the S's or some very major
losses from both them and the AoL, diminishing them
significantly. Why do people feel that is necessary?
> >I believe if you pay attention to the earlier episodes, this,
> >what you call stupidity, has been well developed. That pseudo-deep
>
> There was still room for intelligence, but we didn't get it. Sigh,
> it seems I was hoping for too much.
>
I may seem to be jumping on you, but that hope is eminently reasonable.
The thing is, those of us who spent far too much time watching the
earlier episodes had already gotten over that disappointment. I was
very depressed when the Vorlons and the Shadows were revealed to be so
simple, but it made sense in the overall picture that Joes was trying
to paint, so I got over it. I guess the massive disappointment that
so many fans felt with ITF was basically rooted in this realization.
What I mostly argue with is that it was a great surprise. It wasn't,
really.
> >The fact that you, and others, say that proves that you weren't
> >watching those previous three years very closely. Firstly, JMS
> >has said, for those who weren't paying attention, that B5 is not
> >about the Shadow War, it is about the development of the characters
> >on B5! Also, much of the previous three years, even if constrained
>
> No, B5 was not just about the Shadow War, but it is not just about
> the development of the characters either. B5 is constructed as an
> epic saga. The characters do develope, as they should, but there
> is an overall story, aka 'The Arc'. The Shadow War was a
> significant part of the overall arc since season 1. The resolution
> of it left a foul taste in my mouth, and therefore soured my
> appatite for the rest of the show.
>
The Shadow War is background. I do agree that it was a significant
part of the Arc, but more important is the aftermath, which we
are seeing now. I guess my love for the characters, and specifically
for the aliens, made the disappointing turn that the Shadow War
took some time ago more acceptable to me. While I also regret the
missed potential, I look forward to the increased interaction
between B5 characters that the resolution to the Shadow War
provides.
> >to developing the Shadow War, which it wasn't, was laboriously
> >constructed for just this ending. JMS wrote all of this stuff
> >years ago in his head, to say that he was dismissing it all is
> >just plain ignorant.
>
> Ah, I see the problem, 'pointless' was a poor choice of words on my
> part. I still think the ending wasted the great setup it was
> given.
>
I would love to argue with you. Sadly, I cannot. The setup was
one of the best I have ever seen. Any ending that I can think of
would have been lacking, but that's excuse making. I guess
something that I have loved for as long as I have loved B5
cannot be dismissed by a poor plot twist.
> >> BTW, if the final scene of the final episode was a shot of Ivonova
> >> waking up and saying "What a wild dream." would you think it a
> >> magical misdirection? It would be a surprise, but it would still
> >> suck.
>
> >That would be true, but nothing similar to what we did get. Even
> >those who don't have any idea what is going on would have to
> >agree with that.
>
> You missed my point (or you are being deliberately obtuse).
> You said in effect that surprise is good, and we are just reacting
> poorly to being misdirected. I was pointing out the surprise and
> misdirection are only as good as the final result. The final result
> of ITF was a dissapointment.
>
Actually, I didn't say that. Someone else did. I agree with your
sentiment, though, about surprise and misdirection. I just wasn't
as surprised as a lot of folks were, so it wasn't much of a
misdirection for me. This had been coming for a long time.
Ben
Richard Nelson
>> No it was not important to the way the B5 universe was developed.
>> Joe could have made Lorien the last of the first race to develope
>> immortality and not lost anything. Instead it comes off sounding
>> like new age doofiness. Remeber when B5 started, Joe talked about
>> trying to make the show feel real. Having "the universe" deciding
>> things shatters that feeling.
>For you it does, but not for me. First of all, what is the difference
>between first and last? Who cares if the first race was immortal
>or not? Since nothing and noone that we know of is immortal, how
>do we know that that isn't the way it is? This is Joe's vision,
When I said 'the last of' I was refering to the last living member
of the species. If he was actually the first born or the last born
makes no difference. The difference I made was saying it should
have been a species that developed immortality long after sentience
instead of the simultanious developement we were given. The latter
makes no sense from an evolutionary standpoint. That was my first
beef, and my second was with the 'universe decided' bunk. The
universe does not think or decide anything. Having it in there
adds nothing to the show, it only detracts from it.
>and to say that he has betrayed that vision has to be inaccurate,
>by its very precept. He wrote ITF just as well as he wrote CoS, or
>Gray-17, for that matter. You have fallen into the trap that I
This is not about the B5 vision, it's more of a technical problem.
The universe does not think, so why say 'the universe decided...'.
It makes no sense. If the B5 universe is supposed to be so
radically different that it thinks, then show some evidence for it.
If Joe wanted to make a comment about this universe, then why make
such a doofy statement.
>Obviously what you feel is real is not the same as JMS. Not to
Of course what anybody feels is irrelevent to what is real. We are
forced to determine what is probably real by observation,
experimentation, and rationalization.
>slight your opinion, but thank god that JMS has not listened to
>those who tried to dictate his vision so far, otherwise we
>would just have more Drek.
I wouldn't try to dictate Joe's vision, but I'm free to say what
makes me cringe when I see it.
>I will however, concede that it would have been cooler if they
>would not have turned out to be so childish. However, we have
>had petulant foreshadowing from both sides which made this not
>too much of a surprise.
Perhaps I didn't catch the childish forshadowing, or perhaps I just
denied it. I still think it could have been done with arrogance
instead of immaturity. That would have worked much better for me.
>> WHY!!!! That is something that absolutely does not make sense.
>> Why should the first ones leave the galaxy, or should I say why
>> should *all* of them leave.
>That makes a lot of sense. Why did Ironheart leave? When you
Ironheart just became super powerfull, but he didn't gain much
extra knowlege about the universe so he went off and looked
arround. And he did say he would be back.
>have the whole universe opened up to you, why stay in the
>same backyard for eons? G'kar said that we were less than
To make it clearer, I think it perfectly reasonable for many to
leave and look arround. My question is why should every single
member of every race of first ones leave? Why did those other 6
first one races have to leave, when they were only marginally still
here anyway? Why shouldn't some want to stick arround to see what
happens in this galaxy. And why not keep your original home world
as a stopping/meeting point so members of that species can come
together and talk about what they found? I suppose you could
always say 'It's a race of immortals thing, you wouldn't
understand.' but I find that unsatisfying.
>had been wrong, they would all have been dead. The vibe I am
>getting from you is that the only acceptable ending would have
>been the death of both the V's and the S's or some very major
>losses from both them and the AoL, diminishing them
>significantly. Why do people feel that is necessary?
Your vibe sensor needs and adjustment. There did not have to be
any more losses than were shown, but something more satisfying in
the 'negotiations' was needed.
>> There was still room for intelligence, but we didn't get it. Sigh,
>> it seems I was hoping for too much.
>I may seem to be jumping on you, but that hope is eminently reasonable.
>The thing is, those of us who spent far too much time watching the
>earlier episodes had already gotten over that disappointment. I was
Ah, it seems I denied it until it was thrown in my face.
>very depressed when the Vorlons and the Shadows were revealed to be so
>simple, but it made sense in the overall picture that Joes was trying
>to paint, so I got over it. I guess the massive disappointment that
>so many fans felt with ITF was basically rooted in this realization.
True, that is where the massive disappointment comes from. While
it may make sense in terms of what Joe was trying to do, I can't
help but ask if it was necessary for them to be that way? Could a
few little changes have been made that would have improved the
Vorlons and Shadows without sacrificing any point Joe wanted to
make? My thought is yes, and thus I am disappointed that they
wern't done.
>I would love to argue with you. Sadly, I cannot. The setup was
>one of the best I have ever seen. Any ending that I can think of
>would have been lacking, but that's excuse making. I guess
>something that I have loved for as long as I have loved B5
>cannot be dismissed by a poor plot twist.
I am not dismissing B5, I will still watch it till the end, but my
expectations have dropped several notches.
Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com
In article <5gqa55$2...@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>,
rble...@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Richard Nelson) wrote:
>
> In article <332FA9...@sprintmail.com> benjam...@sprintmail.com writes:
> >Richard Nelson wrote:
>
> >> No it was not important to the way the B5 universe was developed.
> >> Joe could have made Lorien the last of the first race to develope
> >> immortality and not lost anything. Instead it comes off sounding
> >> like new age doofiness. Remeber when B5 started, Joe talked about
> >> trying to make the show feel real. Having "the universe" deciding
> >> things shatters that feeling.
>
> >by its very precept. He wrote ITF just as well as he wrote CoS, or
> >Gray-17, for that matter. You have fallen into the trap that I
>
> This is not about the B5 vision, it's more of a technical problem.
> The universe does not think, so why say 'the universe decided...'.
> It makes no sense. If the B5 universe is supposed to be so
> radically different that it thinks, then show some evidence for it.
> If Joe wanted to make a comment about this universe, then why make
> such a doofy statement.
That was >Lorien's< viewpoint, not JMS'. Lorien believed that the
universe "decided that future races should be immortal." What Lorien
>believes< has no reflection on what >is<. It is simply his way of
explaining events that have come to pass.
In reality, the movement from immortal beings to mortal beings was
probably a process of natural selection. Why move from immortality to
mortality? Who knows?
Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com Lorien: To live on as we have is to leave
behind joy and companionship, because we know it to be transitory, of the
moment...we know that it will turn to ash....Only those whose lives are
brief can imagine that love...is eternal. You should embrace that
remarkable illusion.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Franklin Hummel
In article <8588794...@dejanews.com>,
<Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com> wrote:
>
>In reality, the movement from immortal beings to mortal beings was
>probably a process of natural selection. Why move from immortality to
>mortality? Who knows?
immortality does?
Steven W. DiFranco
Benjamin James Lomax wrote:
>
>
> Why? It wasn't the size of his fleet that convinced the V's and S's
> to listen. It was really irrelevant. They were there in case they
> refused to listen, so that they could die well. Sheridan said that
> they couldn't win anyway. Now if he would have waited in the hope
> that they blew each other away, he might have been able to defeat
> them, but that wasn't his objective. Not ever. He was risking all
> of the AoL on his hunch, which paid off.
What was important about the fleet was that all the younger races were
working in UNISON toward a COMMON GOAL. It had less to do with its
combined strength than it had to do with its implications.
--
[ Steven W. DiFranco, CEO WEBCRAFT Data Resources ][ "For the things
Dennis J. Halnon
Benjamin James Lomax wrote:
> The fact that you, and others, say that proves that you weren't
> watching those previous three years very closely. Firstly, JMS
> has said, for those who weren't paying attention, that B5 is not
> about the Shadow War, it is about the development of the characters
> on B5! Also, much of the previous three years, even if constrained
> constructed for just this ending. JMS wrote all of this stuff
> years ago in his head, to say that he was dismissing it all is
> just plain ignorant.
My problem with the ending of the Shadow War was not that it didn't make
sense in terms of the show. The problem I have with it is that the
entire Shadow War plot was CHOCK FULL of mystery, drama, suspense, etc.
IOW, it was well-written up to that point; interesting, compelling, etc.
Then, suddenly, we get a "deus ex machina" in the form of Lorien, who in
one fell swoop explains away all the mystery and hands us a thoroughly
UN-dramatic ending to this plot.
Every schoolkid in the Western hemisphere is taught that the literary
device known as "deus ex machina" is to be avoided at all costs. What
made JMS fall back on it, suddenly?
Saying that B5 is not about the Shadow War does NOT excuse JMS for this
lapse in writing talent. Saying B5 is about the characters does NOT
mean that the Shadow War plot thread should be treated as a
"throw-away." If anything, it CONTRIBUTED to character development, and
without it as a mystery-conflict backdrop, the characters won't seem the
same, from here on out (unless some OTHER all-encompassing conflict
arises).
Simply put, there can be no argument that Lorien was a "deus ex
machina," nor can there be any argument that the end of the Shadow War
was undramatic (at least, the ending didn't compare to its
development). Even if it doesn't bother you, I don't think you can deny
that it simply does NOT match up to the literary quality of B5's first 3
seasons.
The fact is, JMS introduced a "deus ex machina," which NO ONE who makes
a living as a writer has even the SLIGHTEST excuse EVER to do, in order
to bring a sudden end to a plot thread. That in turn made the whole
thing horribly uninteresting, and a BIG disappointment to many B5 fans.
Just because it doesn't bother SOME fans DOESN'T make it OK. And please
don't tell those of us whom it DOES bother that we haven't been paying
attention to the show. That's "fan snobbery" (i.e. you have to LOVE
everything about the show or else you're not a "TRUE fan").
--
<- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >
Dennis J. Halnon / mend...@esslink.com / Fantasy Quest Setting Director
Personal Web page - http://members.esslink.com/~mendelin/
"Live the Adventure!" (tm)
<- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >
Benjamin James Lomax
Richard Nelson wrote:
> When I said 'the last of' I was refering to the last living member
> of the species. If he was actually the first born or the last born
> makes no difference. The difference I made was saying it should
> have been a species that developed immortality long after sentience
> instead of the simultanious developement we were given. The latter
> makes no sense from an evolutionary standpoint. That was my first
Actually it does make a lot of sense from an evolutionary standpoint.
How would a species evolve if noone ever died? The death of some
is required so that newer beings with newer ideas can come into
positions of influence. God knows that if noone ever died of old
age in our own world, we would never have advanced. Sometimes
the only way old traditions die is when those who hold them die.
This explains both why the V's and S's had stopped growing
and why races would have stopped being immortal, if you can
accept the basic tenets of the above. All IMHO, of course.
> beef, and my second was with the 'universe decided' bunk. The
> universe does not think or decide anything. Having it in there
> adds nothing to the show, it only detracts from it.
>
Yeah, but if you haven't picked up on Joe's metaphysical stuff
before now, you haven't been paying attention. Sure most people
think that kind of thing is bunk, but it's pretty obvious that
JMS doesn't. It's all part of the vision thing. Joe's particular
opinions have always been the background of the whole show
and this is far from the first time that he could be accused of
not being practical.:>
> This is not about the B5 vision, it's more of a technical problem.
> The universe does not think, so why say 'the universe decided...'.
Again, that's your opinion, just as Lorien's opinion is that it
does. I would venture to say that Joe's atheism would support
the whole "universe thinking" concept, just based on the posts
of his that I have read.
> It makes no sense. If the B5 universe is supposed to be so
> radically different that it thinks, then show some evidence for it.
What's the difference between the universe thinking and the idea
that there is a heavenly being who we cannot see and determines
everything that happens, as the majority of people in the Western
world believe? It's not that much of a jump, believe me.
> If Joe wanted to make a comment about this universe, then why make
> such a doofy statement.
>
Like I said before, it may not be that deep of a statement, but it
was hardly "doofy". I, and many others that I have corresponded
with, thought that the statement was pretty effective, if you take
into account the whole theme that Joe was trying to get across.
> Of course what anybody feels is irrelevent to what is real. We are
> forced to determine what is probably real by observation,
> experimentation, and rationalization.
>
And what have you observed that has made you so sure of your
opinion? Noone knows for sure what is out there in the universe,
and those who say they do are usually those who know the least.
What you are saying is that your opinion is more valid than
Joe's because it is based on facts, yet you cannot possibly
be sure of those facts. Maybe Joe is equally sure that the
universe does think? Maybe not, but nobody knows for sure.
His opinion is equally valid, and equally unproveable, to yours.
> I wouldn't try to dictate Joe's vision, but I'm free to say what
> makes me cringe when I see it.
>
Yes, you are, but now when you propose things as facts when they
are not. In your opinion, and a lot of other people's, the whole
universe thinking and Lorien's whole perspective is bunk, but
that is just your opinion, not established fact by a long shot.
> Perhaps I didn't catch the childish forshadowing, or perhaps I just
> denied it. I still think it could have been done with arrogance
> instead of immaturity. That would have worked much better for me.
>
True, and I won't argue with that. Nevertheless, it was done the
way that it was done, and that was how it was always intended to be.
> >That makes a lot of sense. Why did Ironheart leave? When you
>
> Ironheart just became super powerfull, but he didn't gain much
> extra knowlege about the universe so he went off and looked
> arround. And he did say he would be back.
>
No, he didn't and that betrays your lack of attention. He said
that he would see Sheridan (and the whole human race by inferenc)
"in a million years". He wasn't coming back, he was telling them
that they would be joining him out there. That was one of the
first indication that evolution involved "going out there" which
is the vital thing that you are missing. Growth is stunted by
never leaving home, which was the whole problem with the S's and
V's in the first place.
> >have the whole universe opened up to you, why stay in the
> >same backyard for eons? G'kar said that we were less than
>
> To make it clearer, I think it perfectly reasonable for many to
> leave and look arround. My question is why should every single
> member of every race of first ones leave? Why did those other 6
> first one races have to leave, when they were only marginally still
> here anyway?
If the S's and V's had not maintained such a dominating presence
in the sandbox, it never would have been a problem. However,
Lorien determined that if they were going to leave, then the
others should go too. I get the impression that those six were
just monitors left in the old homeland to set their races, who
presumably had gone "out there" long, long ago, could stay
informed. If the Shadows and Vorlons had left a presence similar
to this, then it wouldn't have been a problem, but none of them
left, and for their good, Lorien told them it was time to go.
They were obviously stagnating, and had been for a very long time.
> Why shouldn't some want to stick arround to see what
> happens in this galaxy. And why not keep your original home world
> as a stopping/meeting point so members of that species can come
> together and talk about what they found? I suppose you could
> always say 'It's a race of immortals thing, you wouldn't
> understand.' but I find that unsatisfying.
What I don't understand is why they would care about the progress
of beings so inferior to themselves? Grow up. It's like a college
graduate hanging out at the local high school so they can still
be cool. Yeah, it happens, but it's pretty pathetic.
> Your vibe sensor needs and adjustment. There did not have to be
> any more losses than were shown, but something more satisfying in
> the 'negotiations' was needed.
>
Like what? Write me an ending that would have been more satifying
to you but that still accomplished all the goals of everyone
involved. I am betting that you can't.
> >> There was still room for intelligence, but we didn't get it. Sigh,
> >> it seems I was hoping for too much.
>
> >I may seem to be jumping on you, but that hope is eminently reasonable.
> >The thing is, those of us who spent far too much time watching the
> >earlier episodes had already gotten over that disappointment. I was
>
> Ah, it seems I denied it until it was thrown in my face.
>
You and a whole lot of other people.
> True, that is where the massive disappointment comes from. While
> it may make sense in terms of what Joe was trying to do, I can't
> help but ask if it was necessary for them to be that way? Could a
> few little changes have been made that would have improved the
> Vorlons and Shadows without sacrificing any point Joe wanted to
> make? My thought is yes, and thus I am disappointed that they
> wern't done.
>
Maybe, but Joe has been following his vision, and this is it. I
don't know whether he would agree that some minor improvements
could be made, but he probably would. He has never been satisfied
with his work. Personally, I think he did a pretty damn good
job, though I realize I am in the minority on that.
> I am not dismissing B5, I will still watch it till the end, but my
> expectations have dropped several notches.
Well, that's a shame, but not everyone can love the way the show
developed. It was always a lot different than what else was out
there and the ending continued that tradition. IMO, it was just
about what it should have been and my expectations will always
remain very high for the show, since there is still so much
great stuff going on with it, even if you hated ITF.
Ben
kcw
> >. And as many others have pointed out, there was almost
> > *nothing* sacrificed to achieve this resolution. It was easy. It cost
> > *nothing* that we the viewers really cared about. It cost nothing to
the
> > Vorlons and Shadows as well. This last point (that the Vorlons and
Shadows
> > were let off the hook) *really* irks me.
You are missing the entire point of the episode. They are trying to lull
us into a false sense of security. The battle's not over. It's just
begun. What do you suppose those "Puppet-Masters" rip-offs were around
Lando's neck in the future? They may have gotten rid of the Shadows and
the Vorlons, but obviously the Shadows have some friends hanging back.
Remember, the Shadows had been dormant for years; some other races had to
have been doing their dirty work for them while they were preparing for the
war. Wait and see, you might get your fight seen yet.
Kevin Hynes
In <5gqa55$2...@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> Richard Nelson wrote:
> The difference I made was saying it should
> have been a species that developed immortality long after sentience
> instead of the simultanious developement we were given. The latter
> makes no sense from an evolutionary standpoint. That was my first
> beef, and my second was with the 'universe decided' bunk. The
> universe does not think or decide anything. Having it in there
> adds nothing to the show, it only detracts from it.
It was Lorien, not JMS, saying "the universe decided." I think Lorien
was simply expressing that there are things even he does not
understand. It was just his way of saying "for some reason...."
----+---+---+---+---+--+--+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+----
Kevin Hynes | "Doctor, you are a sensualist."
hyn...@cybertron.com | "You bet your pointed ears I am."
----+---+---+---+---+--+--+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+----
Mike Barklage
Benjamin James Lomax <benjam...@sprintmail.com> writes:
>Actually it does make a lot of sense from an evolutionary standpoint.
>How would a species evolve if noone ever died? The death of some
>is required so that newer beings with newer ideas can come into
>positions of influence. God knows that if noone ever died of old
>age in our own world, we would never have advanced.
<lots of text snipped>
That's not necessarily true. Look at Lorien -- he certainly seemed more
evolved and forward-thinking than most of the other species. If
individuals can change over time, then why is mortality necessary for
growth?
(Of course, the Real Life answer to this is that there's no such thing
as immortality, so it's a moot point. Still, it's a fun thought question.)
Mike Barklage
World's Worst Computer Programmer -- MSTie #19634 -- bark...@ucsu.colorado.edu
For MiSTings and Ed Wood items, link to http://rtt.colorado.edu/~barklage
"SMART PEOPLE LIVE AMONG US IN MANY GUISES" -- Denver Post headline 3/18/97
Benjamin James Lomax
Dennis J. Halnon wrote:
>
> Benjamin James Lomax wrote:
> > The fact that you, and others, say that proves that you weren't
> > watching those previous three years very closely. Firstly, JMS
> > has said, for those who weren't paying attention, that B5 is not
> > about the Shadow War, it is about the development of the characters
> > on B5! Also, much of the previous three years, even if constrained
> > to developing the Shadow War, which it wasn't, was laboriously
> > constructed for just this ending. JMS wrote all of this stuff
> > years ago in his head, to say that he was dismissing it all is
> > just plain ignorant.
>
> My problem with the ending of the Shadow War was not that it didn't make
> sense in terms of the show. The problem I have with it is that the
> entire Shadow War plot was CHOCK FULL of mystery, drama, suspense, etc.
> IOW, it was well-written up to that point; interesting, compelling, etc.
>
> Then, suddenly, we get a "deus ex machina" in the form of Lorien, who in
> one fell swoop explains away all the mystery and hands us a thoroughly
> UN-dramatic ending to this plot.
>
powerful being, I will agree, and he did assist Sheridan in
understanding
the whole affair, but how did he end it? The answer is he didn't. He
was an advisor, nothing more. Sheridan made the decision and carried
out the plan, with the help of the AoL, who he recruited, which we
saw for a long time. Lorien brought Sheridan back from death, helped
kill Kosh Vader, and then brought Sheridan and Delenn back from
the S's and V's attempts to finally convince them. He was a valuable
asset, but he didn't make the calls, nor did he carry them out.
> Every schoolkid in the Western hemisphere is taught that the literary
> device known as "deus ex machina" is to be avoided at all costs. What
> made JMS fall back on it, suddenly?
>
Easy answer. He didn't. Please inform me what makes Lorien a "deus ex
machina" other than your opinion.
> Saying that B5 is not about the Shadow War does NOT excuse JMS for this
> lapse in writing talent. Saying B5 is about the characters does NOT
> mean that the Shadow War plot thread should be treated as a
> "throw-away." If anything, it CONTRIBUTED to character development, and
> without it as a mystery-conflict backdrop, the characters won't seem the
> same, from here on out (unless some OTHER all-encompassing conflict
> arises).
>
So the problem is that the Shadow War is over? It has been known for a
long time that the Shadow War was ending so that B5 could deal with
other things. They could not be dealt with if the Shadow War continued.
And I really don't see how you could see the end as a "throw-away".
Even if you didn't like the ending, you have to admit that a lot of
development went into the ending. Or not, I guess, but I think it is
fairly obvious that a very large portion of the foreshadowing was
leading up to this. It was hardly "throw-away".
> Simply put, there can be no argument that Lorien was a "deus ex
> machina," nor can there be any argument that the end of the Shadow War
> was undramatic (at least, the ending didn't compare to its
> development).
There can't? Oh, wow, then I guess this post must be ignored by
anyone who has chosen to read it. Lorien was not a "deus ex machina"
nor was the ending of the Shadow War undramatic. Because you say
it is so does not make it so. Maybe the setup was too good for
the ending, but it was not undramatic, nor was it badly written.
I really don't know how you can justify that.
> Even if it doesn't bother you, I don't think you can deny
> that it simply does NOT match up to the literary quality of B5's first 3
> seasons.
>
Even if so, which I doubt, that hardly justifies saying that it
was undramatic or badly written. Only that is wasn't as good as what
you were used to. That I can accept.
> The fact is, JMS introduced a "deus ex machina," which NO ONE who makes
> a living as a writer has even the SLIGHTEST excuse EVER to do, in order
You are right, which puts me totally in the dark as to why you would
think
JMS would do it, since you must admit he has been a pretty damn good
writer up until now.
> to bring a sudden end to a plot thread. That in turn made the whole
> thing horribly uninteresting, and a BIG disappointment to many B5 fans.
>
I think what is disappointing to you is not the main reason that a
lot of fans were disappointed, but that is my opinion.
> Just because it doesn't bother SOME fans DOESN'T make it OK. And please
> don't tell those of us whom it DOES bother that we haven't been paying
> attention to the show. That's "fan snobbery" (i.e. you have to LOVE
> everything about the show or else you're not a "TRUE fan").
I didn't say that because it bothered you you weren't paying attention,
and I would never say what you apparently interpreted. I don't love
everything about the show, nor does anybody that I have talked to.
What I said (and you did not argue with) was that if you didn't expect
what happened at the end, then you hadn't been paying attention.
Please don't misquote me.
Ben
Benjamin James Lomax
Mike Barklage wrote:
> That's not necessarily true. Look at Lorien -- he certainly seemed more
> evolved and forward-thinking than most of the other species. If
> individuals can change over time, then why is mortality necessary for
> growth?
>
I don't think it is absolutely necessary, but it certainly would help.
I also am just stating the angle that I think JMS is playing with this.
It's all IMO, of course, but I don't think I am too far off.
Ben
Benjamin James Lomax
Benjamin James Lomax
Richard Nelson
>> have been a species that developed immortality long after sentience
>> instead of the simultanious developement we were given. The latter
>> makes no sense from an evolutionary standpoint. That was my first
>Actually it does make a lot of sense from an evolutionary standpoint.
>How would a species evolve if noone ever died? The death of some
That explains how a species could loose immortality, and is much
better sounding that 'the universe decided'. But the problem still
remains that they started off immortal. It came across as life on
Lorien's planet as going from non sentient, non immortal to
immortal and sentient in in a snap. Perhaps this was not the
intention, but it's how I read it.
>Yeah, but if you haven't picked up on Joe's metaphysical stuff
>before now, you haven't been paying attention. Sure most people
Ah yes I keep forgetting about my selective amnesia :). His
repeated use of 'lifeforce' has always been grating. I even
pointed out to Joe after Quality of Mercy that the whole field of
biochemistry came about from trying to detect a lifeforce, and
finding none. I noticed that he put in some hand waving to this
effect when Lorien was talking about his repair of Sheridan, but it
still fell flat.
>What's the difference between the universe thinking and the idea
>that there is a heavenly being who we cannot see and determines
>everything that happens, as the majority of people in the Western
>world believe? It's not that much of a jump, believe me.
None at all :)
>> Of course what anybody feels is irrelevent to what is real. We are
>> forced to determine what is probably real by observation,
>> experimentation, and rationalization.
>And what have you observed that has made you so sure of your
>opinion? Noone knows for sure what is out there in the universe,
When in doubt, there's always Occam's Razor. There has never been
any observation that has indicated that the universe thinks.
Untill there is evidence or an absolute need for one, a thinking
universe should not be postulized to exist.
>What you are saying is that your opinion is more valid than
>Joe's because it is based on facts, yet you cannot possibly
>be sure of those facts. Maybe Joe is equally sure that the
>universe does think? Maybe not, but nobody knows for sure.
>His opinion is equally valid, and equally unproveable, to yours.
Unproveable isn't the issue here, the issue is justification. Is
there any reason for such a supposition? Are there any facts to
support it? I can pull any number of unsupported, undisprovable
ideas out of my ass. Are they all perfectly valid because they
can't be disproved?
>Yes, you are, but now when you propose things as facts when they
>are not. In your opinion, and a lot of other people's, the whole
>universe thinking and Lorien's whole perspective is bunk, but
>that is just your opinion, not established fact by a long shot.
It's consistant with the available evidence. Until there is
something to support the thinking universe idea, it's bunk.
>No, he didn't and that betrays your lack of attention. He said
>that he would see Sheridan (and the whole human race by inferenc)
>"in a million years". He wasn't coming back, he was telling them
>that they would be joining him out there. That was one of the
It could be read either that he would be back, or humans would be
out there. I took it as Ironheart telling Sinclair that he would
be back.
>> Your vibe sensor needs and adjustment. There did not have to be
>> any more losses than were shown, but something more satisfying in
>> the 'negotiations' was needed.
>Like what? Write me an ending that would have been more satifying
>to you but that still accomplished all the goals of everyone
>involved. I am betting that you can't.
Ok, after the first ones entered the fight, the V&S should have
called for a temporary cease fire (instead of the magical energy
field thingy. If they had that, why didn't they use it earlier?).
In the negotiations, inculde Lorien an the other first ones, and
have the Vorlons and Shadows not only make their cases, but demand
to know why these other first ones are there. Also they should
have demanded that Sheridan and Delen justify themselves, justify
that the younger races were capable of being on their own,
especially since they went running to the other first ones for help
just because there couldn't handle a little fight. And finally,
they should have relented and a let the younger races alone for a
while (50-100K years), to see if they realy could cut it. End with
all of the first ones leaving the scene, but not the galaxy, and
have a final warning that we should not contact them again until we
are ready.
I hope you weren't expecting a full script.
Mario Manganiello
: > Every schoolkid in the Western hemisphere is taught that the literary
: > device known as "deus ex machina" is to be avoided at all costs. What
: > made JMS fall back on it, suddenly?
: >
: Easy answer. He didn't. Please inform me what makes Lorien a "deus ex
: machina" other than your opinion.
Easy one, chummer. Sheridan, on Zha'ha'dum, was a VERY crispy
critter. He was dead one of three ways: Falling into the pit (thump),
getting caught by the explosion (boomf), or getting caputred by the
Shadows ("Yes, Master!"). If not for Lorien, Sheridan would now be a
greasy smear across Zha'ha'dum. And the method of his salvation was more
or less magical.
If that's not deus ex machina, I don't know what is.
Still, I don't think Lorien was deus ex machina during Into the
Fire, not as much. I mean, if Lorien hadn't been present but the Shadows
and Vorlons had been willing to listen to reason, ItF would have ended
exactly the same way.
Benjamin James Lomax
> >How would a species evolve if noone ever died? The death of some
> >is required so that newer beings with newer ideas can come into
> >positions of influence. God knows that if noone ever died of old
> >age in our own world, we would never have advanced.
>
> That's not necessarily true. Look at Lorien -- he certainly seemed more
> evolved and forward-thinking than most of the other species. If
> individuals can change over time, then why is mortality necessary for
> growth?
>
was like that, but the point is that the later races weren't (or aren't)
like him, speculating of course. Also, the whole mortality for growth
thing is Lorien's idea, but I do think there is some validity to it.
> (Of course, the Real Life answer to this is that there's no such thing
> as immortality, so it's a moot point. Still, it's a fun thought question.)
Too true. But I think if I was more based in reality, I wouldn't have
bothered with the newsgroup in the first place.:>
Ben
Benjamin James Lomax
Richard Nelson wrote:
>
> In article <333210...@sprintmail.com> benjam...@sprintmail.com writes:
> >Richard Nelson wrote:
> That explains how a species could loose immortality, and is much
> better sounding that 'the universe decided'. But the problem still
> remains that they started off immortal. It came across as life on
> Lorien's planet as going from non sentient, non immortal to
> immortal and sentient in in a snap. Perhaps this was not the
> intention, but it's how I read it.
>
I wouldn't disagree with that read. I think it definitely does
not have the stamp of biological evolution approval.
> Ah yes I keep forgetting about my selective amnesia :). His
> repeated use of 'lifeforce' has always been grating. I even
> pointed out to Joe after Quality of Mercy that the whole field of
> biochemistry came about from trying to detect a lifeforce, and
> finding none. I noticed that he put in some hand waving to this
> effect when Lorien was talking about his repair of Sheridan, but it
> still fell flat.
>
I have always felt that if you couldn't buy into Joe's whole image
of the soul then you would have a lot of trouble with the show,
since so much of it is based on that. Fortunately I don't have a
problem with it, being biologically ignorant.:>
> >And what have you observed that has made you so sure of your
> >opinion? Noone knows for sure what is out there in the universe,
>
> When in doubt, there's always Occam's Razor. There has never been
> any observation that has indicated that the universe thinks.
> Untill there is evidence or an absolute need for one, a thinking
> universe should not be postulized to exist.
>
Nobody ever postulated a need for Newt Gingrich, yet there he is.
As far as evidence being necessary for development of scientific
concepts in fiction, I don't think that B5 can be accused of
remaining scientifically accurate all the time, witnessed by
Joe's continual harrasment on the rec.arts.sf.tv.B5 group by
people who know science better than he does. Much better than
Drek, but there are still some scientific jumps. I don't mind,
though I do understand that it really irritates some fans.
> Unproveable isn't the issue here, the issue is justification. Is
> there any reason for such a supposition? Are there any facts to
> support it? I can pull any number of unsupported, undisprovable
> ideas out of my ass. Are they all perfectly valid because they
> can't be disproved?
>
Well, actually if you have a tv series, you can pull anything you
want out of your ass. It is ficion after all. I don't think that
the metaphysical aspects of B5 are enough to discredit the great
things that have been done with it. They have been fairly consistent
and not unreasonable, if you can make the initial jump (which I
would suppose the majority of B5 fans would have to to stay fans).
> >Yes, you are, but now when you propose things as facts when they
> >are not. In your opinion, and a lot of other people's, the whole
> >universe thinking and Lorien's whole perspective is bunk, but
> >that is just your opinion, not established fact by a long shot.
>
> It's consistant with the available evidence. Until there is
> something to support the thinking universe idea, it's bunk.
So are aliens and FTL, but they are there as well. It's all
JMS' image. If you are looking at it from a purely scientific aspect,
I really don't know how you could enjoy it. The science is not
what makes B5 great. It's called "suspension of disbelief".
>
> >No, he didn't and that betrays your lack of attention. He said
> >that he would see Sheridan (and the whole human race by inferenc)
> >"in a million years". He wasn't coming back, he was telling them
> >that they would be joining him out there. That was one of the
>
> It could be read either that he would be back, or humans would be
> out there. I took it as Ironheart telling Sinclair that he would
> be back.
>
That's your opinion, but based on JMS and the perspective of the
whole show so far, I am pretty sure that he meant they would be
joining him.
> >Like what? Write me an ending that would have been more satifying
> >to you but that still accomplished all the goals of everyone
> >involved. I am betting that you can't.
>
> Ok, after the first ones entered the fight, the V&S should have
> called for a temporary cease fire (instead of the magical energy
> field thingy. If they had that, why didn't they use it earlier?).
Wouldn't be consistent. If they had stopped fighting without being
jolted, it would have been to take off, and that's what Sheridan
was trying to avoid.
> In the negotiations, inculde Lorien an the other first ones, and
That would have been great, but very effects intensive and I don't
think JMS could have justified it just to let them have one line.
> have the Vorlons and Shadows not only make their cases, but demand
> to know why these other first ones are there. Also they should
> have demanded that Sheridan and Delen justify themselves, justify
> that the younger races were capable of being on their own,
> especially since they went running to the other first ones for help
> just because there couldn't handle a little fight. And finally,
> they should have relented and a let the younger races alone for a
> while (50-100K years), to see if they realy could cut it. End with
> all of the first ones leaving the scene, but not the galaxy, and
> have a final warning that we should not contact them again until we
> are ready.
>
Okay, you called my bluff, though I am not sure that the ending
would have been that much different. It would have made the same
result much clearer, but I think JMS took the chance that he
explained it well enough. I personally agree with the widespread
opinion that it should have been a two-parter, but for it being
one episode and without deleting the whole Centauri thing, which
was the best part of the ep., it was done pretty well. Could have
been developed more and better, I will admit.
> I hope you weren't expecting a full script.
No, you gave me more than I expected already. Thanks for making
me look bad.:>
Ben
Dennis J. Halnon
Benjamin James Lomax wrote:
> >
> I don't understand how [Lorien] was a "deus ex machina".
Well, let me explain it, then ...
> He was an extremely
> powerful being, I will agree, and he did assist Sheridan in
> understanding
> the whole affair, but how did he end it?
By ending the "mystery" surrounding both the Vorlons and the Shadows.
Without Lorien to "spill the beans," as it were, the conflict would have
continued. Also Lorien provided the "backup" necessary for Sheridan to
"take on" the Vorlons & Shadows. Without Lorien, he'd have had no
reason to maneuver his enemies into that final battle - and even if he
did (for some other reason) he would not have prevailed, as Lorien was
needed to show the rest of the fleet what was happening.
A "deus ex machina" is a sudden new character (or any other plot device)
with the power to end a conflict, and which was not previously developed
within the story. IOW, it's a plot device powerful enough within terms
of the story to end a conflict, and which appears "out of nowhere."
This describes Lorien to a "T," does it not?
> The answer is he didn't.
Huh? Without Lorien's sudden appearance in the story, there wouldn't
have BEEN an end.
> He
> was an advisor, nothing more. Sheridan made the decision and carried
> out the plan, with the help of the AoL, who he recruited, which we
> saw for a long time.
All with Lorien's advice. "Advice" is NOT trivial. Who's to say what
Sheridan would've done if not for Lorien's intervention - giving him
access to knowledge he didn't have before, and which was not otherwise
introduced into the show.
> Lorien brought Sheridan back from death, helped
> kill Kosh Vader, and then brought Sheridan and Delenn back from
> the S's and V's attempts to finally convince them.
These things, also, are not trivial. Without Lorien in the story they
never would have happened.
> He was a valuable
> asset, but he didn't make the calls, nor did he carry them out.
Without him to pull Sheridan and Delenn's butts out of the sling, ...
> > Every schoolkid in the Western hemisphere is taught that the literary
> > device known as "deus ex machina" is to be avoided at all costs. What
> > made JMS fall back on it, suddenly?
> >
> Easy answer. He didn't. Please inform me what makes Lorien a "deus ex
> machina" other than your opinion.
Please see the above. QED.
> So the problem is that the Shadow War is over? It has been known for a
> long time that the Shadow War was ending so that B5 could deal with
> other things. They could not be dealt with if the Shadow War continued.
> And I really don't see how you could see the end as a "throw-away".
> Even if you didn't like the ending, you have to admit that a lot of
> development went into the ending.
Yeah, here's the development:
"Gee, I think this Shadow War thingie's been goin' on too long.
But I can't end it, 'cause I made them battlecrabs and spacesquids
too damned powerful. Guess I gotta bring someone in who's bigger
than both of 'em ..."
> Or not, I guess, but I think it is
> fairly obvious that a very large portion of the foreshadowing was
> leading up to this.
Yeah, uh huh. Right.
> Lorien was not a "deus ex machina"
> nor was the ending of the Shadow War undramatic. Because you say
> it is so does not make it so.
At least I am able to say why I thought it poorly written. So far you
have said nothing to convince me anything was GOOD about it.
> Maybe the setup was too good for
> the ending
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You've hit the nail RIGHT ON THE HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > The fact is, JMS introduced a "deus ex machina," which NO ONE who makes
> > a living as a writer has even the SLIGHTEST excuse EVER to do, in order
>
> You are right, which puts me totally in the dark as to why you would
> think
> JMS would do it, since you must admit he has been a pretty damn good
> writer up until now.
I say he did it ... because ... HE DID IT!
> > to bring a sudden end to a plot thread. That in turn made the whole
> > thing horribly uninteresting, and a BIG disappointment to many B5 fans.
> >
> I think what is disappointing to you is not the main reason that a
> lot of fans were disappointed, but that is my opinion.
No one I know who watches B5 liked it. NO ONE. A few have given up on
the show. I may very well. When they finally get around to airing a
new episode (the next trickle is next month) I'll see if the writing
still sucks bilgewater.
> What I said (and you did not argue with) was that if you didn't expect
> what happened at the end, then you hadn't been paying attention.
Fan snobbery. Right there.
> Please don't misquote me.
I didn't.
Paul D. Shocklee
Richard Nelson (rble...@sdcc3.ucsd.edu) wrote:
: >> have been a species that developed immortality long after sentience
: >> instead of the simultanious developement we were given. The latter
: >> makes no sense from an evolutionary standpoint. That was my first
: >Actually it does make a lot of sense from an evolutionary standpoint.
: >How would a species evolve if noone ever died? The death of some
: That explains how a species could loose immortality, and is much
: better sounding that 'the universe decided'. But the problem still
: remains that they started off immortal. It came across as life on
: Lorien's planet as going from non sentient, non immortal to
: immortal and sentient in in a snap. Perhaps this was not the
: intention, but it's how I read it.
Presumably Lorien didn't evolve on a planet - his real form seems to be
that amorphous gas cloud. Maybe his race is made of plasma, their life
processes based on magnetohydrodynamic effects. Who knows? Maybe such
a race would be automatically immortal, since they wouldn't have to deal
with cell division and the like.
As for the universe deciding, I took that as merely a figure of speech,
like "the laws of quantum mechanics and electromagnetism conspired to
produce self-reproducing lifeforms based on organic molecules".
[...]
As for the rest, my humble opinion is that Into the Fire was the logical
conclusion to the foregoing setup, but that its execution was somewhat
anti-climactic. It really needed more time and more sacrifice. The
Londo stuff, on the other hand, was superlative.
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Paul D. Shocklee - physics grad student - Princeton University |
| When clones are outlawed, only outlaws will have clones. |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Timothy Burke
I'm not sure Lorien was a classic deus ex machina--something wholly
unanticipated and unpredecedented that single-handedly resolves a
seemingly irresolvable dramatic dilemma--
but he was pretty close.
I'll give you the absolutely unavoidable reference that demonstrates
this.
Remember "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum"? Kosh Kenobi and Delenn reveal
the truth to Sheridan, at least as much as they were willing to at the
time. Delenn says that the Shadows must not know yet how much their
foes in the Army of Light know. She then says that the Army of Light
has but one hope on which everything turns and that it must not be
unleashed until the time is right. The way the story turns out, that
appears to be Lorien. But Lorien, and Sheridan's sacrifice, turns out
to be something that Delenn never anticipated or knew was coming. So
what did she have in mind when she spoke of a single hope? I submit,
humbly, nothing. If she knew of Lorien, through Kosh, and knew that
Sheridan would have to go to Z'ha'dum, then that's wholly unsupported
by the story to date.
Why is this such a problem? Why not have Delenn bitterly admit she was
deceived by the Vorlons? Well, that might be interesting. I don't see
it coming in the storyline, but it might help. Better yet, have her
admit that she lied to Sheridan even more than he's already
guessed--not just about Anna but about the necessity for him to "die"
at Z'ha'dum. That would redeem everything.
But without such an admission, it makes almost every prophetic hint in
the first three years seem really rather hollow--and that's *exactly*
what all of us liked so much. In fact, what it makes it seem is that
JMS has been fibbing big time when he said everything was planned out
in advance.
Tell you what I think, after seeing "Into the Fire". The G'kar-Londo
storyline was always completely planned in JMS's notes for the show's
arc, and it works as well as it does because that's so. But now I'm
inclined to think that as far as the resolution to the Shadow War, he
never had it planned out with any precison. Its development,
certainly. What came afterwards, yes. But the exact resolution? I
think he was hoping it would come to him as he went. It didn't. Too
bad. I still love the show but it's a big let-down nevetheless.
Mario Manganiello
: By ending the "mystery" surrounding both the Vorlons and the Shadows.
: Without Lorien to "spill the beans," as it were, the conflict would have
: continued.
Actually, the Shadows themselves told Sheridan half of it when he
was on Zha'ha'dum. If he really gave it some more thought...and maybe
discussed it with Delenn or other Minbari...I'm sure he could have figure
it all out.
: Also Lorien provided the "backup" necessary for Sheridan to
: "take on" the Vorlons & Shadows. Without Lorien, he'd have had no
: reason to maneuver his enemies into that final battle - and even if he
: did (for some other reason) he would not have prevailed, as Lorien was
: needed to show the rest of the fleet what was happening.
Then again, if Sheridan hadn't been "killed" on Zha'ha'dum and the
Shadows and Vorlons had been a little more willing to listen to him then
maybe the Army of Light still could have won.
Two minor points: Sheridan had plenty of reasons (6 billion of
them in fact, the population of Corianus 6 (spelling?) to be exact) to
send the Army of Light there to meet the Shadows and Vorlons head on.
Second point, if Sheridan had, like a lot of us think he should
have, let the Vorlons and Shadows beat on each other for a while until the
AoL was more threatening to them... Well, maybe that would have been the
Lorien substitute he needed to get himself heard.
: A "deus ex machina" is a sudden new character (or any other plot device)
: with the power to end a conflict, and which was not previously developed
: within the story. IOW, it's a plot device powerful enough within terms
: of the story to end a conflict, and which appears "out of nowhere."
:
: This describes Lorien to a "T," does it not?
Well, not just a conflict. A deus ex machina can also save someone
from certain death (still a conflict, but the word "conflict" is
misleading) which Lorien did for Sheridan on Zha'ha'dum.
I actually enjoyed Into the Fire and that's all there is to it. I
found the resolution interesting and not at all anti-climactic. Oh, sure,
I would have liked to have seen a few differences like the one I mentioned
up above. BUT, I thought that Sheridan being resurrected or repaired or
whatever you want to call it was nothing short of excessively cheesy. If
JMS really wanted Lorien in it so badly, there's other ways he could have
done it. Example: Let Sheridan escape Z'h'd on his own somehow and have
him meet Lorien in orbit, Lorien showing up because he noticed something
going Boomf on a planet he knew was inhabited and he was curious what had
happened.
Mario Manganiello
: Remember "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum"? Kosh Kenobi and Delenn reveal
: the truth to Sheridan, at least as much as they were willing to at the
: time. Delenn says that the Shadows must not know yet how much their
: foes in the Army of Light know. She then says that the Army of Light
: has but one hope on which everything turns and that it must not be
: unleashed until the time is right.
Okay, the way Delenn was working, she was expecting the thousand
year cycle of on-again off-again Shadow wars to continue. She expected, as
did the Vorlons, that the Shadows would be driven off and then in ANOTHER
thousand years...blah blah blah yackety shmackety.
So what was this one hope she had? It actually could have been
anything. The Great Machine, that fleet of White Stars, maybe the Vorlon
Planet Killers even (though I doubt the Vorlons told her about them, they
may have hinted at a secret weapon and Delenn told this to Sheridan not
knowing what she was talking about but trusting the Vorlons).
: The way the story turns out, that appears to be Lorien.
As I said above, I doubt that's it. But then again, I'm not
remembering who's suggestion it was that they find more First Ones. If
this was ever brought up before Lorien showed up or if Delenn knew about
them before Lorien...
: But Lorien, and Sheridan's sacrifice, turns out
: to be something that Delenn never anticipated or knew was coming.
Was it? Why did she, as her future self, BEG Sheridan not to go to
Zha'ha'dum? If you ask me, she knew what she was talking about. Disater's
going to strike in the form of whatever those beasties are that were
controlling Londo. Maybe allowing the Vorlons and Shadows to bugger off
wasn't such a great move. Maybe the Younger Races needed their protection
for a while. And how could they have stayed if the whole conflict was
ended? Maybe in another thousand years the Younger Races would be ready...
: So what did she have in mind when she spoke of a single hope? I submit,
: humbly, nothing. If she knew of Lorien, through Kosh, and knew that
: Sheridan would have to go to Z'ha'dum, then that's wholly unsupported
: by the story to date.
And I say see what I wrote above. I predict a disaster in the
making that only the Elder Races could deal with...
: Why is this such a problem? Why not have Delenn bitterly admit she was
: deceived by the Vorlons?
Was she really decieved? Oh, sure, they probably didn't tell her
what the conflict was all about. And before any of the Child Races were
ready to defeat the Elders, the Vorlons are the side _I'D_ want to be on
(less death) so there's nothing wrong there. If you accept the theories I
put forth above, I think that either the only hope was the White Star
Fleet and/or the Great Machine OR it was something that became invalid
afterLorien showed up. I do NOT think it was Lorien himself thought it may
have been the First Ones as a whole.
: Well, that might be interesting. I don't see
: it coming in the storyline, but it might help. Better yet, have her
: admit that she lied to Sheridan even more than he's already
: guessed--not just about Anna but about the necessity for him to "die"
: at Z'ha'dum. That would redeem everything.
She lied about Anna because she figured they all needed him alive.
I doubt there's more to it than that if most of what I said above is true.
: But without such an admission, it makes almost every prophetic hint in
: the first three years seem really rather hollow--and that's *exactly*
: what all of us liked so much. In fact, what it makes it seem is that
: JMS has been fibbing big time when he said everything was planned out
: in advance.
Again, see above. If what I said is true, you just haven't thought
it all through enough.
: Tell you what I think, after seeing "Into the Fire". The G'kar-Londo
: storyline was always completely planned in JMS's notes for the show's
: arc, and it works as well as it does because that's so. But now I'm
: inclined to think that as far as the resolution to the Shadow War, he
: never had it planned out with any precison. Its development,
: certainly. What came afterwards, yes. But the exact resolution? I
: think he was hoping it would come to him as he went. It didn't. Too
: bad. I still love the show but it's a big let-down nevetheless.
I still don't see the resolution as being a letdown. I see LORIEN
as a letdown, but I would have been just as happy if the ending had been
just a "talkie" but Sheridan's words had been considered on their own
merit instead of Lorien having to badger the S's and V's into it.
Anyone who says otherwise is just disappointed because they
expected a different kind of resolution and didn't get it. Not to sound
snooty about it but that's the only explanation I can see because so far
every other possible ending I've heard proposed and every objection I've
seen raised has basicly been saying so.
Doug Mertaugh
"Steven W. DiFranco" <s...@apk.net> wrote:
>Matthew Melmon wrote:
>>
>> In article <5g4ntj$7o6$1...@cactus.verinet.com>, d...@verinet.com (Dennis
>> Clark) wrote:
>>
>> > Jeese guys, you lose interest after the promise of a huge CGI war
>> > goes away? The war was the catalyst to bring a bunch of other brewing
>> > troubles into the open, the Minbari social crisis, EarthDome social crisis,
>> > the Centauri crisis, Narn, SciCorp,... That was the point, the fight crisis
>> > isn't over when the war ends. In my old D&D days we called battle mongers
>> > with no thought as to plot "munchkins", though usually they were the 12
>> > and 13 year olds, no attention span.
The original direction of D+D was battle for no rhyme or
reason. The objection to the ending of the Shadow War was
not battle for battle's sake. The objection was the total
lack of realism. In D+D, there is no realism. Characters are
just cannon fodder. You can't deal with the real sorrows of
killing and war because the players don't give a f**k. In
real drama, you deal with the realities and consequences.
The conclusion of the Shadow War didn't deal with realities
and consequences. It fell back on the old Trek cliche,
"Nice speech, Sheridan. Now we realize we've been wrong and
we can all be friends!" That's believable just because it's
sf/ fantasy? Try that in a real world scenario to test how
believable it is. "Nice speech. Now we of the Ku Klux Klan
and the Black Panthers realize we've been wrong and we can all
be friends!" Yeah, right.
The Shadow War certainly brought out other plot elements but
if you are saying that the war itself was just a plot device,
well, it wasn't. It dealt with war very realisticaly until
the last moment. However, the story isn't over yet. We may
still have a more believable conclusion to the Earth situation.
Timothy Burke
On 23 Mar 1997 04:54:34 GMT, Ta...@cris.com (Mario Manganiello) wrote:
> I still don't see the resolution as being a letdown. I see LORIEN
>as a letdown, but I would have been just as happy if the ending had been
>just a "talkie" but Sheridan's words had been considered on their own
>merit instead of Lorien having to badger the S's and V's into it.
> Anyone who says otherwise is just disappointed because they
>expected a different kind of resolution and didn't get it. Not to sound
>snooty about it but that's the only explanation I can see because so far
>every other possible ending I've heard proposed and every objection I've
>seen raised has basicly been saying so.
Well, yes, as I've said, I was expecting a resolution that had all the
complexity and layering that I've come to expect from Babylon 5, and a
resolution which made all the prophetic hints and foreshadowing that a
pre-planned arc allows pay off. Other than that, I had an open mind. I
have no intrinsic problem with Sheridan and Delenn talking the Shadows
and Vorlons out of the war, no intrinsic problem with a negotiated
solution. I didn't expect a big-ass battle and I'm not disappointed in
its absence.
What I didn't expect or desire was a resolution which basically rested
on cheesy fourth-rate comic book stuff like "chaos" and "order". JMS
told us that he didn't want the Shadows to be the kind of simplistic
bad guys who just do Evil for the hell of it. So instead he made them
simplistic chaotic guys who just do chaos to make other races evolve.
Ditto Vorlons. It's like reading a history of the Cold War that's
about a paragraph long that boils down the conflict into "The USSR
believes in state control of markets and the US believes in free
markets." It's true in some limited fashion, but not very useful. If
you plead, well, this is just teevee and we can't have much complexity
here, then you run counter to all of JMS' own declarations of what he
is trying to do in the series.
What I didn't expect or desire was a resolution which made most of the
hints and prophecies of the previous three + years seem hollow, empty
or flat-out wrong.
Doug Mertaugh
Ta...@cris.com (Mario Manganiello) wrote:
>
>: > Every schoolkid in the Western hemisphere is taught that the literary
>: > device known as "deus ex machina" is to be avoided at all costs. What
>: > made JMS fall back on it, suddenly?
>: >
>: Easy answer. He didn't. Please inform me what makes Lorien a "deus ex
>: machina" other than your opinion.
>
>critter. He was dead one of three ways: Falling into the pit (thump),
>getting caught by the explosion (boomf), or getting caputred by the
>Shadows ("Yes, Master!"). If not for Lorien, Sheridan would now be a
>greasy smear across Zha'ha'dum. And the method of his salvation was more
>or less magical.
> If that's not deus ex machina, I don't know what is.
> Still, I don't think Lorien was deus ex machina during Into the
>Fire, not as much. I mean, if Lorien hadn't been present but the Shadows
>and Vorlons had been willing to listen to reason, ItF would have ended
>exactly the same way.
>
I don't really mind that Lorien's presence on Za'ha'dum was
deus ex machina. It's sometimes arguable what is or isn't
deus ex machina. In LOTR, the eagles swept down and rescued
Gandalf and the hobbits as they were about to plunge from a
burning tree into the mouths of the wolves. But the eagles came
because they were patroling and swooped down when they saw the
fire. Yet they arrived just as Gandalf jumped. Some have argued
that this was deus ex machina even though there was an
explanation. It isn't always wrong to present a situation that
a character cannot survive purely on his own merits as long
as there was a real purpose to it in the story. Sometimes, what
is or isn't deus ex machina is debatable.
The point is that Lorien was always counseling the Shadows and
Vorlons that they had lost their way and
they didn't listen. One got the feeling that both shadows
and vorlons respected Lorien but that's as far as it went.
The problem with Lorien wasn't his rescuing of Sheridan.
I don't even think the problem was his mysticism. I suggest
you look at B5 again. The whole story is closer to
mythology than to science fiction or to fantasy in the modern
sense. B5 is a new mythology. Complaining about mysticism
in something that *is* mythology is pointless. The problem
isn't Lorien but the way the war ended.
Doug Mertaugh
Troy_...@ccmail.orl.mmc.com wrote:
>In article <5gqa55$2...@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>,
> rble...@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Richard Nelson) wrote:
>>
>That was >Lorien's< viewpoint, not JMS'. Lorien believed that the
>universe "decided that future races should be immortal." What Lorien
>>believes< has no reflection on what >is<. It is simply his way of
>explaining events that have come to pass.
I took Lorien's statement as more figurative than anything
else, a poetic way of saying, "I can't explain it."
Then again, maybe the universe is sentient, though in a
different way than what we think of.
I found it amusing when Ivanova says that, as the first
generation of his race to reach intelligence, they'd have done
well to invent the wheel, discover fire and develop language.
That's like saying it would only be "doing well" to discover
electricity, atomic power and cold fusion in one generation.
I did not take her statement as being meant literally.
>In reality, the movement from immortal beings to mortal beings was
>probably a process of natural selection. Why move from immortality to
>mortality? Who knows?
I took it as a takeoff on myth. The whole Shadows/ Vorlons
situation, along with many other plot elements, is very
mythical at heart.
Gary J. Weiner
Mario Manganiello wrote:
<BIG SNIP>
> I still don't see the resolution as being a letdown. I see LORIEN
> as a letdown, but I would have been just as happy if the ending had been
> just a "talkie" but Sheridan's words had been considered on their own
> merit instead of Lorien having to badger the S's and V's into it.
Actually, Lorien is the only reason that scene is even remotely
believable. Two immensely powerful, old beyond knowing, races
end their anchient struggle based on a stern talking-to by
John "Babyface" Sheriden.
At least having the universe's oldest being there gave it
some (extremely slight) plausibility.
But Lorien himself was extremely lame.
> Anyone who says otherwise is just disappointed because they
> expected a different kind of resolution and didn't get it. Not to sound
> snooty about it but that's the only explanation I can see because so far
> every other possible ending I've heard proposed and every objection I've
> seen raised has basicly been saying so.
Sorry bucko. I didn't like it because it was dumb. Great and powerful
beings acting like six-year-olds caught with their hand in the
cookie jar. A war that has lasted for millenia untold ending with
a patented "James T. Kirk" style dressing down. All that was missing
was the mascara running down Sheriden's cheeks.
All the die hard Babylmaniacs are insisting if we didn't like the
ITF resolution, it must be something wrong with us.
I enjoy the show very much. Watch every episode. Breathlessly
waited for the resolution to the Shadow War. And I even expected
a non-combat, somewhat subtle ending.
But what we got was crap. The emperor has no clothes. ITF stank
as bad as any _Voyager_ episode.
--
Gary J. Weiner - webm...@austin-williams.com
http://www.austin-williams.com
Austin, Williams & Best - Advertising & Marketing
-----
"And so he says I don't like the cut of your jib. And I go I says, IT'S
THE ONLY JIB I GOT, BABY!" - The Evil Midnite Bomber what bombs at
Midnite
Mario Manganiello
: But Lorien himself was extremely lame.
Well, I'm glad we agree on that at least. :)
: > Anyone who says otherwise is just disappointed because they
: > expected a different kind of resolution and didn't get it. Not to sound
: > snooty about it but that's the only explanation I can see because so far
: > every other possible ending I've heard proposed and every objection I've
: > seen raised has basicly been saying so.
:
: Sorry bucko. I didn't like it because it was dumb. Great and powerful
: beings acting like six-year-olds caught with their hand in the
: cookie jar. A war that has lasted for millenia untold ending with
: a patented "James T. Kirk" style dressing down. All that was missing
: was the mascara running down Sheriden's cheeks.
Actually, I never even expected the war to end there around
Corianus 6 (Koryanis? How the frag d'ya spell that puppy?). I thought it
was gonna be another battle in what would otherwise be a looooong war. I
guess it ending right then and there was pretty unexpected for me and in
that way the shock was entertaining.
Still, even if I had known that that was gonna be the end of the
who S/V conflict, I probably still would have liked the ending and for the
same reason you say you DON'T like it:
The bad guys LISTENED! In fact, it turned out that they weren't
bad guys all along, just badly misguided. And then it was refreshing
because they didn't shrug and say, "So we've been making a mistake with
these wars...so what? We'll stick with what we know."
That, and they got to go to what was basicly Vorlon Heaven if they
stopped fighting...would you pass that up just to beat on smaller races
that you were SUPPOSED to be guiding?
: All the die hard Babylmaniacs are insisting if we didn't like the
: ITF resolution, it must be something wrong with us.
How can it be anything else? I mean, there isn't something wrong
with ME because I liked it. And if it is possible to like the damn thing,
then not liking has to be something that's coming from you. That sounds
rather insulting, I know, but there isn't a PC way to say it.
It just sounds like you're NOT saying "OH, so that's what it's all
about!" and are instead saying "But I wanted it to end differently!". If
you accept it for what it is, you might actually enjoy it more than if you
try to fit it intol a mold that it would never belong in.
: I enjoy the show very much. Watch every episode. Breathlessly
: waited for the resolution to the Shadow War. And I even expected
: a non-combat, somewhat subtle ending.
:
: But what we got was crap. The emperor has no clothes. ITF stank
: as bad as any _Voyager_ episode.
Hmmm...Voyager...never watch it, the analogy means nothing to me.
Still, it does mean SOMETHING since Trek in all its forms is crap.
However, what Trek episode has ever had this much buildup? Oh,
they tried to do it on TNG. They had this whole X-Files kind of thing
going on with aliens taking over StarFleet officers...and then with no
warning the conspiracy dried up, never to be heard from again...what's
with that? B5, now B5 follows up on stuff...
Later...
Richard Bergstresser
Mario Manganiello wrote:
>
> : What I didn't expect or desire was a resolution which made most of the
> : hints and prophecies of the previous three + years seem hollow, empty
> : or flat-out wrong.
>
> enough. I left a loooooong post on here just before this one and I don't
> wnat to repeat myself so you'll just have to read that post to get the
> larger picture.
>
> Point being, you've oversimplified.
No point being JMS oversimplified. Something that he has almost never been
guilty of on this show. That's why the one time he does it, it is such a
jarring let down.
Mario Manganiello
: I don't really mind that Lorien's presence on Za'ha'dum was
: deus ex machina. It's sometimes arguable what is or isn't
: deus ex machina. In LOTR, the eagles swept down and rescued
: Gandalf and the hobbits as they were about to plunge from a
: burning tree into the mouths of the wolves. But the eagles came
: because they were patroling and swooped down when they saw the
: fire. Yet they arrived just as Gandalf jumped. Some have argued
: that this was deus ex machina even though there was an
: explanation.
Lorien's presence on Zha'ha'dum was never explained to my
satisfaction, nor was his interest in Sheridan's life. He just seemed to
be sitting around on...no, make that IN, Z'h'd for no particular reason
except to say boo to the Shadows every now and then.
Now, to use your LOTR analogy, if Lorien had been nearby in his
ship or something and saw Z'h'd explode and got curious, this would be a
much better explanation.
But this would require Sheridan to get away from the Shadows all
by himself...which would not be VERY believable but I like it better.
There's no deus ex machina, at least not as much, and Sheridan doesn't get
himself killed onyl to be "repaired".
: It isn't always wrong to present a situation that
: a character cannot survive purely on his own merits as long
: as there was a real purpose to it in the story. Sometimes, what
: is or isn't deus ex machina is debatable.
See, like I've been saying forever, there were other ways to get
Lorien into the sotry if JMS wanted it so badly...and I think Sheridan has
enough skill at combat and stealth to get out of the Shadows' lair is he
really had to.
: The point is that Lorien was always counseling the Shadows and
: Vorlons that they had lost their way and
: they didn't listen. One got the feeling that both shadows
: and vorlons respected Lorien but that's as far as it went.
Maybe not. I think maybe they even trusted Lorien a little. But
the problem was that Lorien was only telling them they had lost their
way...but never HOW they had lost it. And I'm not sure they would listen
to him even if he did tel for this simple reason: Did you listen to YOUR
parents? Does anyone...at least, anyone who isn't a complete
goody-two-shoes? I mean, how many of you out there at least pondered
smoking now matter how much your parents told you it was a bad idea? How
many of you went out with someone your parents thought was no good? How
many of you went joyriding in the car when all you had was a permit? How
many of you answered "Yes" when your parents asked if you'd jump off that
bridge with all of your friends?
And Lorien was acting as a parent figure for the Shadow and
Vorlons along with the other First Ones. He had done for them what the
Shadows and Vorlons were supposed to be doing for the Child Races: guiding
them and shaping them and helping them evolve.
The problem arose when the two different doctrines, the Vorlons'
Order and the Shadows' Chaos, became forgotten and suddenly the struggle
became between the two Adult Races and not the sturggle to teach.
They wouldn't listen to Lorien and they wouldn't listen to
Sheridan. It took both of them together, the master telling them to
basicly sit down and shut up and bloody LISTEN already, and the Child
telling them that not only had the Adults gone astray but the Child was
leaving the nest, it took THAT to get the S's and V's to even start to
listen. then the promise of a sort of Nirvana, the knowlege that they
weren't alone, AND the knowlege that they had suceeded in raising the
Child Races despite their mistakes to get the ADult Races to leave it all
alone.
They had nothing left to fight for, and the Children weren't going
to allow it to happen anymore anyway, they weren't going to cooperate.
And, to top it off, the S's and V's knew they could only shape things from
behind the scenes if the Child Races didn't know it was happening. Beyond
that, all the Vorlons could do was teach and the Shadows couldn't do
anything at all the shape them, not with their Chaos Doctrine.
All of these things coming together, along with plenty of thought
on the part of the viewer to sort it all out, make for a very interesting
resolution. I had seen similar plot lines before, most notably in Star
Control 2 and 3, but regardless, I liked it a LOT.
And the only way I can see someone NOT liking the idea behind the
resolution and the fact that it COULD be resolved after HOW many millenia?
The only way I can see that not being a good way to spend an hour (and
several years of buildup and hints and clues...) is if you just didn't
think it through enough...and were expecting something else.
: The problem with Lorien wasn't his rescuing of Sheridan.
That's my main problem with Lorien. I also know that I'm alone in
this except for my fiancee who cried foul about it at the same time I did.
I'd at least like ot hear someone say that, yes, it was cheesy.
: I don't even think the problem was his mysticism.
My only problem with his mysticism is the manner in which he
rescued Sheridan.
: I suggest you look at B5 again. The whole story is closer to
: mythology than to science fiction or to fantasy in the modern
: sense.
I have to disagree. This was more like a politcal thriller
combined with parent-child relations.
: B5 is a new mythology. Complaining about mysticism
: in something that *is* mythology is pointless. The problem
: isn't Lorien but the way the war ended.
I like the way the war ended, as I said above. And the only other
mysticism in B5 that I could see was Kosh's cryptic ramblings and, to some
extent, the telepaths. Both of which I can forgive because Kosh (and all
the Vorlons) are really just eccentric, speech-wise...and telepaths are
perfectly all right. I imagine there would be a way to be sensitive to
another being's brain waves, it would just take the right sensory
equipment in one's head.
Mysticism isn't the problem...it's MAGIC that's the problem. And
to save Sheridan from a nuclear explosion AND from bouncing on the floor
of that pit would take magic on Lorien's part...or a well-timed Star Trek
tranporter effect, which I doubt B5 would lower itself to using.
Nuff said...
Mario Manganiello
Mario Manganiello
: > Point being, you've oversimplified.
:
: No point being JMS oversimplified. Something that he has almost never been
: guilty of on this show. That's why the one time he does it, it is such a
: jarring let down.
But see, the whole thing was actually fairly complex and a lot
more complex than anything ELSE on TV and your simplistic interpretation
of it is TOO simple. Maybe if you gave the show and the war and the
episode a little more thought you might see more than you remember...and
might actually enjoy it.
Later...
Robert Holland
Gharlane of Eddore wrote:
>
> "AL" <=> Attribution Lost
> AL> The scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark which you alluded to was NOT what
> AL> Spielberg had planned. Originally, Spielberg WANTED a sword/whip fight
> AL> between Indy and the large chap. However, there was one slight problem.
> AL> Harrison Ford was having some trouble with the end part of his digestive
> AL> system, and he was constantly running between takes to go to the bathroom.
> AL> A long, drawn out fight as the director wanted wouldn't have been possible.
> AL> Instead, Indy draws his gun, and the rest is history. Using this as an
> AL> example of a creatoe knowingly setting up the audience for one solution
> AL> and then pulling another doesn't quite work out.
>
> In <332C68...@wco.com> Robert Holland <rhol...@wco.com> writes:
> >
> > So, the funniest bit in Indiana Jones happened because the lead
> > had diarrhea?
>
> The version I heard was that Harrison Ford and the stunt guy with the
> sword worked it out in advance, but hadn't told anyone what they were
> going to do, including the director. Of course, this is strictly
> hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt.
>
> > That would explain the Alan Quartermain film imitation--
> > the writer had diarrhea.
>
> The name in the title of the two Golan-Globus efforts was "QUATERMAIN,"
> not "Quartermain."
I stand corrected in my recollection of the spelling. Apparently you
found *something* memorable about that flick.
> To this day I think the only thing they did that
> was really criminally wrong was to cast Richard Chamberlain in the lead.
> Allan Quatermain should be played by someone who's a bit more of an
> Old Africa Hand in appearance... Chamberlain will always have the
> air of Doctor Kildare about him.
Dr. Doolittle is more like it.
How about casting Michael Douglas as the Old Africa Hand? Seemed to
work well for The Ghost and the Darkness.
--RH
Merlin Null
Mario Manganiello wrote:
<big snip>
> Mysticism isn't the problem...it's MAGIC that's the problem. And
> to save Sheridan from a nuclear explosion AND from bouncing on the floor
> of that pit would take magic on Lorien's part...or a well-timed Star Trek
> tranporter effect, which I doubt B5 would lower itself to using.
>
> Nuff said...
The magic I dislike the most in Star Trek is medical. Wave a magic
gaget over whats wrong and it goes away. The character either dies
or gets fixed up like new. They might teeter on the edge of death
for a while for the plot.
B5 at least shows the pain and permanent injury of war. War is
very messy. Trek tries to make it too clean. If a character is
injured in B5 and recovers, he has to go through painful healing.
Merlin R.(Bob) Null
Mario Manganiello
: The magic I dislike the most in Star Trek is medical. Wave a magic
: gaget over whats wrong and it goes away. The character either dies
: or gets fixed up like new. They might teeter on the edge of death
: for a while for the plot.
:
: B5 at least shows the pain and permanent injury of war. War is
: very messy. Trek tries to make it too clean. If a character is
: injured in B5 and recovers, he has to go through painful healing.
And this is maybe half of my objection to Lorien's healing of
Sheridan. Let's face it, the boy was TOAST one way or the other and then
<blip> Lorien saves his bacon.
Later...
Steven W. DiFranco
Doug Mertaugh wrote:
>
> Ta...@cris.com (Mario Manganiello) wrote:
> >
> >: > Every schoolkid in the Western hemisphere is taught that the literary
> >: > device known as "deus ex machina" is to be avoided at all costs. What
> >: > made JMS fall back on it, suddenly?
> >: >
> >: Easy answer. He didn't. Please inform me what makes Lorien a "deus ex
> >: machina" other than your opinion.
> >
> > Easy one, chummer. Sheridan, on Zha'ha'dum, was a VERY crispy
> >critter. He was dead one of three ways: Falling into the pit (thump),
> >getting caught by the explosion (boomf), or getting caputred by the
> >Shadows ("Yes, Master!"). If not for Lorien, Sheridan would now be a
> >greasy smear across Zha'ha'dum. And the method of his salvation was more
> >or less magical.
> > If that's not deus ex machina, I don't know what is.
> > Still, I don't think Lorien was deus ex machina during Into the
> >Fire, not as much. I mean, if Lorien hadn't been present but the Shadows
> >and Vorlons had been willing to listen to reason, ItF would have ended
> >exactly the same way.
> >
>
> deus ex machina. It's sometimes arguable what is or isn't
> deus ex machina. In LOTR, the eagles swept down and rescued
> Gandalf and the hobbits as they were about to plunge from a
> burning tree into the mouths of the wolves. But the eagles came
> because they were patroling and swooped down when they saw the
> fire. Yet they arrived just as Gandalf jumped. Some have argued
> that this was deus ex machina even though there was an
> a character cannot survive purely on his own merits as long
> as there was a real purpose to it in the story. Sometimes, what
> is or isn't deus ex machina is debatable.
>
> Vorlons that they had lost their way and
> they didn't listen. One got the feeling that both shadows
> and vorlons respected Lorien but that's as far as it went.
> you look at B5 again. The whole story is closer to
> mythology than to science fiction or to fantasy in the modern
> in something that *is* mythology is pointless. The problem
> isn't Lorien but the way the war ended.
I am amazed and surprised at how long this thread has persisted (I posted
the original "Quit whining..."). So many people think of Lorien as a
deus ex machina because they are not paying attention, or taking notes,
or watching all eps, or are talking durring the show and missing key
words in the dialogue(this is why I started taping, my kids always
decided to make noise during the show).
The fact that Lorien was on Za'Ha'Dum was first introduced in season one.
Apparently the Vorlons knew he was there, the Minbari knew that the
Shadows were attracted to something on Z'Ha'Dum, and Delenn was waiting
for something to happen, as per prophesy. This is why she sent Lennir to
ask Kosh if the Shadows had returned to Za'Ha'Dum before she used the
triluminary. His answer of 'yes' was her cue to get human.
--
[ Steven W. DiFranco, CEO WEBCRAFT Data Resources ][ "For the things
which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul,
others set at naught, and trample under their feet." ][ Sounds like the
writings
of 2,570 years ago hit the nail right on the head. ]
Doug Mertaugh
Ta...@cris.com (Mario Manganiello) wrote:
>: I suggest you look at B5 again. The whole story is closer to
>: mythology than to science fiction or to fantasy in the modern
>: sense.
>
> I have to disagree. This was more like a politcal thriller
>combined with parent-child relations.
>
>: B5 is a new mythology. Complaining about mysticism
>: in something that *is* mythology is pointless. The problem
>: isn't Lorien but the way the war ended.
>
> I like the way the war ended, as I said above. And the only other
>mysticism in B5 that I could see was Kosh's cryptic ramblings and, to some
>extent, the telepaths. Both of which I can forgive because Kosh (and all
>the Vorlons) are really just eccentric, speech-wise...and telepaths are
>perfectly all right. I imagine there would be a way to be sensitive to
>another being's brain waves, it would just take the right sensory
>equipment in one's head.
IMHO, the shadows, vorlons, minbari, the struggle of order
vs. chaos, the shadow minions, the narn, and a wide variety
of other elements of B5 are richly steeped in mysticism. I
know, I know, there's really a "scientific" explanation for
them, each and every one. But sometimes, explanations are
only a veneer. It is certainly true that B5 has enough
facades to draw different viewers who pereceive it in
different ways.
Matthew Melmon
> The magic I dislike the most in Star Trek is medical. Wave a magic
> gaget over whats wrong and it goes away. The character either dies
> or gets fixed up like new. They might teeter on the edge of death
> for a while for the plot.
Not nearly as painful as a de-evolution virus. AAAACK! PITOIE!
Excuse me while I pick up my skull (though Stewart was fun to
watch as a terrified primate fleeing from the Klingon whatever-
it-was). The biological/medical sciences do seem to take more
than their fair share of beating in Trek.
> B5 at least shows the pain and permanent injury of war. War is
> very messy. Trek tries to make it too clean. If a character is
> injured in B5 and recovers, he has to go through painful healing.
Er, um, well, granted there aren't magical weee-wee-wee-wee-you're-
fixed wands. But neither show has exactly forced a character to
endure the "inconvenience" of a war injury. G'kar has his
new eye (why the hell should the Narn be so surprised by this?
They were selling technology to humans ten years prior, I would
think they could grok a cybernetic eye, but no matter). Garibaldi
has recovered from being shot in the back. Morden was down a
hallway from a thermonuclear explosion and recovered in time to
have his head cut off. Sheridan jumped into a pit (below the very
same thermonuclear explosion) and was resurrected by God - though
he only gets to live for twenty more years - the suffering!
It's not like someone has actually had their legs blown off (though
even that should be fairly treatable by cybernetic replacement
in the year 2525 or whatever).
In any event, as technology increases, I would expect injuries
to become less common than outright death. "I've been cut in
half by a purple death beam. Gee, I guess I'm dead."
Dennis J. Halnon
Mario Manganiello wrote:
>
> : By ending the "mystery" surrounding both the Vorlons and the Shadows.
> : Without Lorien to "spill the beans," as it were, the conflict would have
> : continued.
>
> Actually, the Shadows themselves told Sheridan half of it when he
> was on Zha'ha'dum. If he really gave it some more thought...and maybe
> discussed it with Delenn or other Minbari...I'm sure he could have figure
> it all out.
Well, maybe ... but then, the "half" of the story they divulged was told
for THEIR own benefit and NOT to clear up the mystery. Maybe Sheridan
COULD have put it together himself. In fact, I think that would have
been quite INTERESTING. A HELL of a lot more interesting than having
Lorien tell us ... rather undramatically.
Which only further proves my point. There were more dramatic and
interesting ways of concluding this plot thread, besides having Lorien
show up and take all the fun away.
> Two minor points: Sheridan had plenty of reasons (6 billion of
> them in fact, the population of Corianus 6 (spelling?) to be exact) to
> send the Army of Light there to meet the Shadows and Vorlons head on.
Actually the more sound tactic, militarily speaking, would be to have
maneuvered both sides together WITHOU the AoL in the middle. Let THEM
duke it, THEN have the AoL fleet show up and mop up whatever remains.
To put his sole fighting force in its entirety between the opposition is
not just "gutsy," it's madness, and without Lorien's intervention, I
doubt even the space cowboy Sherdian would've dared something that
insane.
> Second point, if Sheridan had, like a lot of us think he should
> have, let the Vorlons and Shadows beat on each other for a while until the
> AoL was more threatening to them... Well, maybe that would have been the
> Lorien substitute he needed to get himself heard.
Exactly. Lorien was TOTALLY unnecessary.
> : A "deus ex machina" is a sudden new character (or any other plot device)
> : with the power to end a conflict, and which was not previously developed
> : within the story. IOW, it's a plot device powerful enough within terms
> : of the story to end a conflict, and which appears "out of nowhere."
> :
> : This describes Lorien to a "T," does it not?
>
> Well, not just a conflict. A deus ex machina can also save someone
> from certain death (still a conflict, but the word "conflict" is
> misleading) which Lorien did for Sheridan on Zha'ha'dum.
Well, Sheridan's death was itself the result of his conflict with the
Shadows.
> I actually enjoyed Into the Fire and that's all there is to it. I
> found the resolution interesting and not at all anti-climactic. Oh, sure,
> I would have liked to have seen a few differences like the one I mentioned
> up above.
Then WHY didn't JMS do it? If there were alternatives - which you
yourself suggest are preferable - then why were they not used? Why was
Lorien stuck in there to mop the whole thing up?
>BUT, I thought that Sheridan being resurrected or repaired or
> whatever you want to call it was nothing short of excessively cheesy.
Absolutely, no bout a doubt it!
> Example: Let Sheridan escape Z'h'd on his own somehow and have
> him meet Lorien in orbit, Lorien showing up because he noticed something
> going Boomf on a planet he knew was inhabited and he was curious what had
> happened.
I can think of a number of other alternatives too ...
Matthew Melmon
> The fact that Lorien was on Za'Ha'Dum was first introduced in
> season one.
That's both absurd and irrelevant. The question is: *why*
was Lorien on the Shadow homeworld? The answer is: to save
Sheridan's ass.
Everything in the first three and a half years that points
to some significance of Zahadum may be explained quite
easily by "It's the Shadow homeworld."
Why are the Shadows returning to Zahadum? It's their home.
Why didn't the Vorlon blow up Zahadum? It's against the rules.
Why does Delenn care about Zahadum? It's the Shadow homeworld.
Why do the Narn care about Zahadum? It's the Shadow homeworld.
Why do we care about Zahadum? It's the Shadow homeworld.
Lorien - in addition to being a fountian of shallow pretentious
drivel - was completely irrelevant to the importance of Zahadum
until Sheridan needed a miraculous trick to save his ass.