Game of Thrones

[T987654321]

Love it. But there are too many elements in play, it's hard to keep track of all the players.

[Duggy]

On Apr 2, 3:36 pm, T987654321 <qwrtz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Love it.  But there are too many elements in play, it's hard to keep track of all the players.

That's the beauty of it.

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[tenworld]

On Apr 1, 10:36 pm, T987654321 <qwrtz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Love it.  But there are too many elements in play, it's hard to keep track of all the players.

this is where the two greatest inventions in communications come
together, the printed book and the internet. As I read the books on
my kindle I kept referring to several excellent web pages that keep
track of the players and plots, and once in awhile I looked up
something in a paper version (biggest drawback to original kindle is
its hard to flip back and forth to maps and appendices).

[jack]

Yeah, who was being killed there at the very end and why?

[Your Name]

In article
<10578552.226.1333344985739.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbcp5>,

T987654321 <qwrt...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Love it. But there are too many elements in play, it's hard to keep
> track of all the players.

What's so difficult?? It's the same old porn-show: everyone is having sex
with everyone else.

[Duggy]

On Apr 4, 12:50 am, je.s.t...@hehxduhmp.org wrote:

> jack <j...@columbia.edu> wrote:
> > Yeah, who was being killed there at the very end and why?

> One of the king's bastards. Joffrey realizes that there might be some
> truth to the rumor of his lineage so he's taking out the evidence.

> The first part I'm sure of, the latter part is speculation. I've not
> read the books.

More likely Cersi manipulating him to do it.

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[Smokie Darling (Annie)]

On Tuesday, April 3, 2012 8:50:36 AM UTC-6, (unknown) wrote:

> jack <jr...@columbia.edu> wrote:
> > Yeah, who was being killed there at the very end and why?
>

> One of the king's bastards.

One? I think they were killing all children of the women that Robert *may* have bumped uglies with (though the baby *was* his), and they are looking for the blacksmith that was on the wagon with Arya (who is Robert's eldest son).

[Smokie Darling (Annie)]

Not sure if she is behind it or actually ordering it. After the death threat from Joffrey, she may *not* want Robert's children all killed off (she's going to need something to hold over him).

[tenworld]

Based on the books I believe that Littlefinger is actually behind the
bastardicides, but I dont remember it being all that clear. Since the
blacksmith is still alive at least in book 3, I expect he is a key
part in how the whole game is resolved (ie who becomes king at the end
of book 7). Martin has not written the last two books but supposedly
told the HBO show runners what his plan is. He could marry the
dragonlady eg. and unite the two lines or since it takes 3 people to
manage the dragons perhaps its blacksmith, dragonlady and arya menage
a trois (not a spoiler, just speculation).

[Duggy]

On Apr 5, 1:21 am, "Smokie Darling (Annie)" <Barnabus1...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Not sure if she is behind it or actually ordering it.  After the death threat from Joffrey, she may *not* want Robert's children all killed off (she's going to need something to hold over him).

He has a younger brother.

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[Smokie Darling (Annie)]

If he'd kill her, he'd kill his brother. Having an actual child of Robert's on the other hand....

[Duggy]

On Apr 5, 2:01 am, tenworld <t...@world.std.com> wrote:
> Based on the books I believe that Littlefinger is actually behind the
> bastardicides, but I dont remember it being all that clear.

The scene in the brothel makes it clear that isn't the case in the
show.

I don't think Littlefinger was behind it in the books, either.
Doesn't further his agenda. He was behind the death of Ed Stark
because, well, he wants to fuck Catelyn.

The information on their location probably came from Varys.

Joffery doesn't see them as much of a threat.

Cersi see them as a threat to Joffery (and her role as regent), an
insult to her (reminders of Robert's infidelity) and proof her
children's incestual origins (both previous Hands thought so).

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[Duggy]

On Apr 6, 3:12 am, "Smokie Darling (Annie)" <Barnabus1...@yahoo.com>

wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 4, 2012 6:16:39 PM UTC-6, Duggy wrote:
> > On Apr 5, 1:21 am, "Smokie Darling (Annie)" <Barnabus1...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Not sure if she is behind it or actually ordering it.  After the death threat from Joffrey, she may *not* want Robert's children all killed off (she's going to need something to hold over him).

> > He has a younger brother.

> If he'd kill her, he'd kill his brother.

He threatened to kill her because of a disagreement, but he has no
subtly or contacts. She does.

He has no reason to kill his brother. She has every reason to protect
him. Her own child and a potential king she would be more able to
control.

> Having an actual child of Robert's on the other hand....

Considering she aborted all of his children...

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[tphile2]

I get the feeling that the book is gonna be a total bloodbath and NO
one survives, not even the dragons or the wolves. and while I expect
a high body count and the loss of popular characters, a "then there
were none" end doesn't really interest me. Frankly the latest books
have been a harder read. Like the bizarre turn Catelyn Stark has.
It reads more like a writer out of control then a well thougt out
plot.
I do like the HBO series so far, it trims things down and appears more
focused. but I would be shocked if they film the whole series to the
end. I also don't care for excess nudity some of which is clearly
gratuitious (didn't need to see a naked Hodor), and they downplayed
the dire wolves.

btw what other historical fantasy novels in the Game of Thrones genre
are good reads out there? I know someone who just discovered the
Thrones books and want to recommend others
I have already recommended Zelazny Amber, Lord of Light, and
Merchant Princes and Vorkosigan Saga

[Smokie Darling (Annie)]

On Thursday, April 5, 2012 2:28:51 PM UTC-6, Duggy wrote:
> On Apr 6, 3:12 am, "Smokie Darling (Annie)" <Barnabus1...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 4, 2012 6:16:39 PM UTC-6, Duggy wrote:
> > > On Apr 5, 1:21 am, "Smokie Darling (Annie)" <Barnabus1...@yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Not sure if she is behind it or actually ordering it.  After the death threat from Joffrey, she may *not* want Robert's children all killed off (she's going to need something to hold over him).
>
> > > He has a younger brother.
>
> > If he'd kill her, he'd kill his brother.
>
> He threatened to kill her because of a disagreement, but he has no
> subtly or contacts. She does.

He doesn't need subtlety, and his "men" would have the contacts (dog and mountain). I mean, she's a bitch, she's worried (hell, Tyrion could have set it up as well), but knowing that someone else might be able to take the throne "might" tone down Joffrey (or it might not).

> He has no reason to kill his brother. She has every reason to protect
> him. Her own child and a potential king she would be more able to
> control.
>
> > Having an actual child of Robert's on the other hand....
>
> Considering she aborted all of his children...

Well, that was never established in the show (I know it's in the books). She wanted a Lannister (through and through) on the throne, but if it's her life or a Lannister on the throne, I'm sure she'd choose the former.

[Smokie Darling (Annie)]

On Thursday, April 5, 2012 4:53:28 PM UTC-6, tphile2 wrote:
> On Apr 5, 3:21 pm, Duggy

Wow, must have looked away, don't recall that at all.

and they downplayed
> the dire wolves.

They did say, in EW, that the Dire Wolves will have a bigger role this season, so there is that.

> btw what other historical fantasy novels in the Game of Thrones genre
> are good reads out there? I know someone who just discovered the
> Thrones books and want to recommend others
> I have already recommended Zelazny Amber, Lord of Light, and
> Merchant Princes and Vorkosigan Saga

I suppose that would depend on whether you want *heavy* reading or light, fun reading. Of course, I believe I shall be looking for the ones you have suggested.

If you're really into *lengthy* fantasy stories, the Wheel of Time (I believe it's called), by Robert Jordan, was really good, but after 9 books (and hearing there were at least 5 more), I gave up.

[Duggy]

On Apr 6, 6:39 am, "Smokie Darling (Annie)" <Barnabus1...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> He doesn't need subtlety, and his "men" would have the contacts (dog and mountain).

Varys would know before the contacts could act. He would probably
tell Cersi. Hell, he would. Cersi relies on his info so he has some
control over her but he has none over Joffery. Any attempts on her
life would fail. Joffery isn't subtle enough.

Cersi has been known to use poison. Repeatedly. And who would
question a mother looking after her sick son.

>  I mean, she's a bitch, she's worried (hell, Tyrion could have set it up as well), but knowing that someone else might be able to take the throne "might" tone down Joffrey (or it might not).

Right. It might make him a cornered animal - worse.

The episode suggested he had little idea of his father's infidelity
and he isn't subtle enough to find out. Cersi would already know most
of them, and Verys and Littlefinger would know them all.

> > Considering she aborted all of his children...
> Well, that was never established in the show (I know it's in the books).  She wanted a Lannister (through and through) on the throne, but if it's her life or a Lannister on the throne, I'm sure she'd choose the former.

I'm not even sure it was that. I think that it was more that she
loved Jaime and had grown to hate Robert.

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[Duggy]

On Apr 6, 8:53 am, tphile2 <tphi...@cableone.net> wrote:
> I get the feeling that the book is gonna be a total bloodbath and NO
> one survives, not even the dragons or the wolves.  and while I expect
> a high body count and the loss of popular characters, a "then there
> were none" end doesn't really interest me.

"Author George R.R. Martin was asked if he had a resolution or ending
to the seemingly endless conflict. He replied that the end would be a
cloud of dust or snow being driven by the wind across a vast graveyard
full of tombstones."

> I do like the HBO series so far, it trims things down and appears
> more
> focused. but I would be shocked if they film the whole series to the
> end.

It's expensive and expensive HBO shows have run aground before. But
it is popular. I think it has the potential to get that far.

> I also don't care for excess nudity some of which is clearly
> gratuitious (didn't need to see a naked Hodor),

It was in the book, I was glad it was in the series.
I was a little annoyed actually that the naked Catelyn wasn't in the
first ep... can only starlets appear nude?
I think the brothels... especially the addition of Littlefinger teach
the girls lesbian sex is the real gratuitious party but it doesn't
worry me that much. The beginning of the brothel scene in the latest
episode was the same level I think (but the nude woman later in the
scene made sense.)

> and they downplayed
> the dire wolves.

They have. Can't see that happening much longer.

> btw what other historical fantasy novels in the Game of Thrones
> genre
> are good reads out there?  I know someone who just discovered the
> Thrones books and want to recommend others
> I have already recommended Zelazny Amber, Lord of Light,    and
> Merchant Princes and Vorkosigan Saga

I enjoyed JRRT but found a lot of what I was reading was people
copying him and gave up. I wouldn't mind some recommendations either.

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[Duggy]

On Apr 6, 9:34 am, "Smokie Darling (Annie)" <Barnabus1...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > I also don't care for excess nudity some of which is clearly
> > gratuitious (didn't need to see a naked Hodor),
> Wow, must have looked away, don't recall that at all.

Episode 8: "The Pointy End"

>   and they downplayed
> > the dire wolves.
> They did say, in EW, that the Dire Wolves will have a bigger role this season, so there is that.

Makes sense. Hopefully the FX will be better than in the first
episode.

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[Smokie Darling (Annie)]

On Thursday, April 5, 2012 6:32:01 PM UTC-6, Duggy wrote:
> Varys would know before the contacts could act. He would probably
> tell Cersi. Hell, he would. Cersi relies on his info so he has some
> control over her but he has none over Joffery. Any attempts on her
> life would fail. Joffery isn't subtle enough.

As the King, he can order her executed. Just like Eddard Stark. She couldn't stop that, and she tried to (with all her minions). He's unstable, and there would be no "attempt", he'd accuse her of treason (or hell, striking the King), and she'd be beheaded (and woe to anyone who tried to help her then). Those people are all looking out for their own (the courtiers and such).

> Cersi has been known to use poison. Repeatedly. And who would
> question a mother looking after her sick son.

I know she is beginning to dislike her son, but I just don't see her killing him. You can love someone, without actually liking them a little.

> The episode suggested he had little idea of his father's infidelity
> and he isn't subtle enough to find out. Cersi would already know most
> of them, and Verys and Littlefinger would know them all.

They only discovered the blacksmith because Eddard was stupid and told Littlefinger. Before that, they didn't know (and Eddard's predecessor even said that no one else should know).

> I'm not even sure it was that. I think that it was more that she
> loved Jaime and had grown to hate Robert.

According to the book (and vaguely hinted at in the first episode, or second), she loved Robert, but killed his son (whom she had borne) before she began having Lannister babies. I know she came to despise him, because he mourned the lost love (Eddard's sister?), but I'm nearly certain the first born son was killed before she started to really dislike Robert.

[Smokie Darling (Annie)]

On Thursday, April 5, 2012 6:43:20 PM UTC-6, Duggy wrote:
> On Apr 6, 9:34 am, "Smokie Darling (Annie)" <Barnabus1...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > > I also don't care for excess nudity some of which is clearly
> > > gratuitious (didn't need to see a naked Hodor),
> > Wow, must have looked away, don't recall that at all.
>
> Episode 8: "The Pointy End"

As I said, I do not recall it at all. If they are showing some of the less attractive people nude, then I'd have to say it isn't gratuitous (although, I seem to recall that Danaerys was naked more in the book, as well as her brother, and he wasn't naked much in the first season). In fact, I don't think she wore much, once the ...danggit, brain fart ... the Horse Warriors made camp each night.

> > They did say, in EW, that the Dire Wolves will have a bigger role this season, so there is that.
>
> Makes sense. Hopefully the FX will be better than in the first
> episode.

They wanted Dire Wolves in the first season, but it was one of the many things that had to be set aside, because it got "too expensive", and HBO wasn't positive that the show would do well (along with a battle that should have ended the first season).

[Duggy]

On Apr 7, 1:07 am, "Smokie Darling (Annie)" <Barnabus1...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> On Thursday, April 5, 2012 6:32:01 PM UTC-6, Duggy wrote:
> > Varys would know before the contacts could act.  He would probably
> > tell Cersi.  Hell, he would.  Cersi relies on his info so he has some
> > control over her but he has none over Joffery.  Any attempts on her
> > life would fail.  Joffery isn't subtle enough.
>
> As the King, he can order her executed.

Even Kings need reasons for matricide. Otherwise the people would
turn against him.

> Just like Eddard Stark.

Declared a traitor after declaring Joffery wasn't the King in public.

> She couldn't stop that, and she tried to (with all her minions).  He's unstable, and there would be no "attempt", he'd accuse her of treason (or hell, striking the King), and she'd be beheaded (and woe to anyone who tried to help her then).  Those people are all looking out for their own (the courtiers and such).

True, but he'd loose out in the long run and all of his advisors would
tell him so.

> > Cersi has been known to use poison.  Repeatedly.  And who would
> > question a mother looking after her sick son.
> I know she is beginning to dislike her son, but I just don't see her killing him.  You can love someone, without actually liking them a little.

True.

> > The episode suggested he had little idea of his father's infidelity
> > and he isn't subtle enough to find out.  Cersi would already know most
> > of them, and Verys and Littlefinger would know them all.
> They only discovered the blacksmith because Eddard was stupid and told Littlefinger.  Before that, they didn't know (and Eddard's predecessor even said that no one else should know).

So Littlefinger knew them all.

> > I'm not even sure it was that.  I think that it was more that she
> > loved Jaime and had grown to hate Robert.

> According to the book (and vaguely hinted at in the first episode, or second), she loved Robert, but killed his son (whom she had borne) before she began having Lannister babies.  I know she came to despise him, because he mourned the lost love (Eddard's sister?), but I'm nearly certain the first born son was killed before she started to really dislike Robert.

He called out the Stark girl's name the first time they had sex.

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[Duggy]

On Apr 7, 1:13 am, "Smokie Darling (Annie)" <Barnabus1...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> As I said, I do not recall it at all.  If they are showing some of the less attractive people nude, then I'd have to say it isn't gratuitous

True enough. I don't think that's what people are complaining about.
Or maybe they are and using "gratuitous nude" to hide the fact that
they mean "ugly people nude"

> (although, I seem to recall that Danaerys was naked more in the book, as well as her brother, and he wasn't naked much in the first season).  In fact, I don't think she wore much, once the ...danggit, brain fart ...  the Horse Warriors made camp each night.

She was probably naked more... these things are toned down usually.
Her brother I don't recall.

> > > They did say, in EW, that the Dire Wolves will have a bigger role this season, so there is that.
> > Makes sense.  Hopefully the FX will be better than in the first
> > episode.

> They wanted Dire Wolves in the first season, but it was one of the many things that had to be set aside, because it got "too expensive", and HBO wasn't positive that the show would do well (along with a battle that should have ended the first season).

True.

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[Smokie Darling (Annie)]

On Tuesday, April 3, 2012 6:20:31 PM UTC-6, Duggy wrote:

SPOILER FOR SECOND EPISODE:
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So, we were both right and wrong. Cersei had nothing to do with it. It was all Joffrey. Interesting turn of events, eh?