Heroes: The Finest In Surrealism
Agent Smith
I loved the scene where the guy named after the show, Hiro, jumped to the
wrong time and place, and was surrounded by Japanese managers in business
suits doing their exercises on a lawn on a skyscraper rooftop. Then he
couldn't get away!
But how the hell could he jump correctly so many times in a row, and then
have his powers crap out on him at just the right moment to ruin his
mission? I hate it when they do that. It cheapens the whole concept. If
they're gonna make their heroes omnipotent, they're gonna have to live with
the consequences.
And why the fu@k did they make the heroes mutants? That idea has been
beaten to friggin' death. I figured that there'd be a Scientist Zero who
was the source of the whole "outbreak." That would be Claire's dad.
Mike Allegretto
Mutation is just a theory at this point. True theres some documented
DNA stuff but who knows whats behind that? Consider that symbol that
keeps popping up everywhere.
jewahe
Agent Smith wrote:
> I loved the scene where the guy named after the show, Hiro, jumped to the
> wrong time and place, and was surrounded by Japanese managers in business
> suits doing their exercises on a lawn on a skyscraper rooftop. Then he
> couldn't get away!
>
> But how the hell could he jump correctly so many times in a row, and then
> have his powers crap out on him at just the right moment to ruin his
> mission? I hate it when they do that. It cheapens the whole concept. If
> they're gonna make their heroes omnipotent, they're gonna have to live with
> the consequences.
Actually, he's only "jumped" correctly through time once - on his back
from New York.
The first time, his target was NY, but he screwed up on the time, going
into the future, instead of staying in his own time.
The second time, he jumped six months in the past; he only wanted to
jump a couple of days. He then jumped uncontrolled into the present. We
didn't see any other jumps.
This limited his power. He can stop time, but can't change the past.
jewahe
Agent Smith wrote:
> I loved the scene where the guy named after the show, Hiro, jumped to the
> wrong time and place, and was surrounded by Japanese managers in business
> suits doing their exercises on a lawn on a skyscraper rooftop. Then he
> couldn't get away!
Oh...and he's not named after the show. He's named after Hiroshima; his
grandfather was affected by the atomic bomb dropped there. They named
him Hiro so that he would not forget.
David Johnston
<agent...@two-blocks-on-your-left.com> wrote:
>
>I loved the scene where the guy named after the show, Hiro, jumped to the
>wrong time and place, and was surrounded by Japanese managers in business
>suits doing their exercises on a lawn on a skyscraper rooftop. Then he
>couldn't get away!
>
>But how the hell could he jump correctly so many times in a row,
What are you talking about? He hasn't hit the right target while
teleporting once yet.
Agent Smith
news:1164688007.8...@45g2000cws.googlegroups.com:
Of course, it's obvious that one excludes the other, since it is impossible
for both to be true at the same time. That would violate basic principles
of Boolean logic, and cause the universe to be sucked into a giant black
hole.
Anlatt the Builder
jewahe wrote:
>
> This limited his power. He can stop time, but can't change the past.
Yeah, but, but....
I really like Heroes. I think they've done a great job of making some
of the heroes quite ordinary (the cop and the cheerleader, for
example), and giving so many of them stories that work independently
and together. I'm going to keep watching it.
However, I've seen way too much poorly-thought-out time-travel in my
day (in TV, movies, comics, and novels), and I get a little tetchy
about it. I don't expect a quantum mechanic to appear in the first
episode and explain everything to us, but, when I watch the story, I'd
like to get the feeling that the writers thought about the key
questions, and have their own answers to them. And that's not the
feeling I get.
Assuming that the charming love story between Hiro and Charlie actually
took place six months ago in the current timeline of the series, then
Hiro DID change the past. Before he time-traveled, none of the people
working in the diner (including Charlie) knew who he was when he walked
in the door in the current day. But AFTER his trip to the past, the
timeline is changed so that they would all greet him like an old friend
- he worked there for days or weeks, didn't he?
I could almost believe that Charlie DID know him when he walked in, but
hid that fact because she was aware of his time-traveling (and knew he
didn't do it yet, from his point of view). That would be very elegant,
Hiro fitting into the past just the way it always was - and it would
explain why she wound up with a Japanese phrase book, too. (This is how
it was handled in the Harry Potter bok in which Hermione time-traveled,
and I was pretty impressed.) But somehow I doubt she could have
convinced all the other people working there to pretend they didn't
know Hiro as well. If they now remember him from six months ago, then
the past has been changed. If they don't, then something is way out of
whack - because that's his picture with Charlie, right?
Mike Allegretto
wrote:
Actually he did when he escaped the blast in NYC and wound up back on
the train.
William December Starr
Agent Smith <agent...@two-blocks-on-your-left.com> said:
> I loved the scene where the guy named after the show, Hiro, jumped
> to the wrong time and place, and was surrounded by Japanese
> managers in business suits doing their exercises on a lawn on a
> skyscraper rooftop. Then he couldn't get away!
Note: we've seen that rooftop with the people exercising (a mostly
pre-empowered Hiro among them) before, back during the solar eclipse
in the first episode. He didn't arrive somewhere utterly random.
> But how the hell could he jump correctly so many times in a row,
> and then have his powers crap out on him at just the right moment
> to ruin his mission?
Because whatever runs the universe overrode the usual rules in order
to ensure that Hiro's mission would fail, thereby enforcing the You
Can't (Significantly) Change History super-rule.
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Mark Nobles
Which universe? The real universe, where he is named after the show, or
the fictional universe depicted in the show, where he is named after
the city?
Ken from Chicago
"Agent Smith" <agent...@two-blocks-on-your-left.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9888E57E1B966ag...@207.115.17.102...
He didn't. He tried to jump to New York present day and ended up jumping
weeks into the future. He was trying to jump into the past--yesterday, and
ended up six months in the past. The greater the jump the less control he
has over it--so far.
What else would they be if not mutants? How many "accidents" can people have
around the globe? If it's a result of genetic alteration by a scientist or
corporation, that's still mutation.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"William December Starr" <wds...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ekh0l0$c28$1...@panix3.panix.com...
Or Hiro's subconscious prevents him from screwing up his own timeline.
-- Ken from Chicago
jayembee
> Assuming that the charming love story between Hiro and Charlie
> actually took place six months ago in the current timeline of
> the series, then Hiro DID change the past. Before he time-traveled,
> none of the people working in the diner (including Charlie) knew
> who he was when he walked in the door in the current day. But AFTER
> his trip to the past, the timeline is changed so that they would
> all greet him like an old friend - he worked there for days or
> weeks, didn't he?
>
> I could almost believe that Charlie DID know him when he walked
> in, but hid that fact because she was aware of his time-traveling
> (and knew he didn't do it yet, from his point of view).
[snip]
> But somehow I doubt she could have convinced all the other people
> working there to pretend they didn't know Hiro as well. If they
> now remember him from six months ago, then the past has been
> changed. If they don't, then something is way out of whack -
> because that's his picture with Charlie, right?
Well, if you're going to be that picky about it, he *did* change
the past simply because the birthday photo of Charlie was altered.
When we first see the photo (in the scene where Charlie's body is
being wheeled out by the medical examiner's crew), Hiro wasn't in
it. After he time-traveled, we see the photo again, and he was in
it.
But that *is* being rather picky. Most time-travel stories with the
premise that one can't change the past have "small" events being
changed, while "large" events don't. Hiro could go back, and get
involved in Charlie's life (and even be the one who apparently
gave her the Japanese phrase book she mentioned getting "about six
months ago" when she was first introduced), but he couldn't alter
events to save Charlie's life.
The point is that Charlie was fated to die in October, and if Hiro
tried to change the timeline to keep her from being murdered by
Sylar, she'd die of a brain aneurysm. It was when alt.Charlie told
him about that that Hiro realized he couldn't change the past. He
knew then that Charlie was going to die in six months no matter what
he did.
What that means relative to the destruction of New York is anyone's
guess.
Anyway, the others remember Hiro. After Ando saw the picture with
Hiro in it, he asked the owner(?), "Do you know him?" and she said,
"Hiro? Sure. He and Charlie were tight." When Ando asks her if she
knows where Hiro is now, she said, "I've no idea. He popped out of
her life weeks ago."
So, as far as the present is concerned, they remember Hiro as having
been there most of the last six months, but apparently think that
Ando came into the diner alone.
-- jayembee
jayembee
>> But how the hell could he jump correctly so many times in a row,
>
> What are you talking about? He hasn't hit the right target while
> teleporting once yet.
Well, except for his first try (beginner's luck?) when he teleported
into the karaoke bar's ladies room. :-)
-- jayembee
Mark Nobles
Which was also, by far, his simplest jump: two or three meters distance
and no time shift.
Mark Nobles
> Or Hiro's subconscious prevents him from screwing up his own timeline.
Not just his subconscious. When he called Ando but got himself, he hung
up.
Mark Nobles
> But that *is* being rather picky. Most time-travel stories with the
> premise that one can't change the past have "small" events being
> changed, while "large" events don't. Hiro could go back, and get
> involved in Charlie's life (and even be the one who apparently
> gave her the Japanese phrase book she mentioned getting "about six
> months ago" when she was first introduced), but he couldn't alter
> events to save Charlie's life.
"Twelve Monkeys" is the best of these. No matter how hard they tried to
change something, their actions always fit known history. But then, if
they actually had changed history, they'd have changed what they
remembered too.
Tim
Is this going to lead to a massive discussion of the Doctor Who time
travel theory (everything inside the Tardis is protected from history
changes by time travellers) or The more commonly assumed "go back and
prevent your grandfather from meeting your grandmother and you vanish!"
I guess we hope that THIS shows writers pick one method of the time
travel paradox theory and stick to it!
--
Tim
Tim
Crows Flying
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim's Profile: http://www.coolscifi.com/forums/member.php?userid=161
View this thread: http://www.coolscifi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112584
Agent Smith
@panix3.panix.com:
> In article <Xns9888E57E1B966ag...@207.115.17.102>,
> Agent Smith <agent...@two-blocks-on-your-left.com> said:
>
>> I loved the scene where the guy named after the show, Hiro, jumped
>> to the wrong time and place, and was surrounded by Japanese
>> managers in business suits doing their exercises on a lawn on a
>> skyscraper rooftop. Then he couldn't get away!
>
> Note: we've seen that rooftop with the people exercising (a mostly
> pre-empowered Hiro among them) before, back during the solar eclipse
> in the first episode. He didn't arrive somewhere utterly random.
I missed that episode. I guess it reruns in a week or two, and I'll be
there with bug eyes.
>> But how the hell could he jump correctly so many times in a row,
>> and then have his powers crap out on him at just the right moment
>> to ruin his mission?
>
> Because whatever runs the universe overrode the usual rules in order
> to ensure that Hiro's mission would fail, thereby enforcing the You
> Can't (Significantly) Change History super-rule.
God perhaps? I call this idea "Conservation of Events," and I thought
that I had invented it. I was working on a similar time travel theory
that described time as a fluid that could form closed vortices, thus
allowing for paradox loops that repeat themselves. But that didn't fly,
so I was working on a theory of bifurcating time stream, which seemed
more promising. Then when Hawking published an infinitely simpler
theory about why it can't happen. Even though the laws permit it, and
machine can be built, when you turn the machine on, it immediately
destroys itself.
But I'll let you in on a little secret - the laws *don't* permit it.
Those articles you read, hinting that it can be done, are
misinterpretations of complicated equations. You see, most scientists
aren't nearly so smart as they let on. They're generally just average
joes who found a way to last through to their PhD. And the ones that
make the big breakthroughs aren't working on time travel theory.
Clell Harmon
This assumes that's where he meant to go.
David Johnston
wrote:
I tend to think of that as being the rubber band just snapping him
back rather than a planned destination.
Ian Galbraith
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 01:07:04 GMT, Clell Harmon <c.ha...@mchsi.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Mike Allegretto wrote:
[snip]
>>> Actually he did when he escaped the blast in NYC and wound up back on
>>> the train.
>>
>> This assumes that's where he meant to go.
>
> I tend to think of that as being the rubber band just snapping him
> back rather than a planned destination.
That was my interpretation as well.
--
"Being cool requires no work. Mostly it requires detachment. You can be
cool and not care about being cool. Being hip requires both style and
effort. You can't be hip without working at it." - Players: The A.I. War
by Daniel Keys Moran
Benj
Tim wrote:
> > jayembee <jayembe...@snurcher.com> wrote:
> >
> > > But that *is* being rather picky. Most time-travel stories with the
> > > premise that one can't change the past have "small" events being
> > > changed, while "large" events don't. Hiro could go back, and get
> > > involved in Charlie's life (and even be the one who apparently
> > > gave her the Japanese phrase book she mentioned getting "about six
> > > months ago" when she was first introduced), but he couldn't alter
> > > events to save Charlie's life.
> >
> > "Twelve Monkeys" is the best of these. No matter how hard they tried to
> > change something, their actions always fit known history. But then, if
> > they actually had changed history, they'd have changed what they
> > remembered too.
>
> Is this going to lead to a massive discussion of the Doctor Who time
> travel theory (everything inside the Tardis is protected from history
> changes by time travellers) or The more commonly assumed "go back and
> prevent your grandfather from meeting your grandmother and you vanish!"
>
A few years ago some scientists hypothesized that we live in a
multiverse, that there are an infinite number of parallel universes
floating in something called the 11th dimension. It could answer most
questions about the universe physics. But it could also solve all the
"time paradoxes" like this one: when you go in the past, in fact you
jump in another dimension. Your dimension of origin continues to exist
without you while you are in a new dimension where you affect things
and "change history" (in fact changing nothing). So you could kill your
father before he met your mother and it would not change anything for
you - you just killed your parallel self, not yourself.
Mark Nobles
Not quite. You didn't kill your parallel self - he never existed. The
instance of you from another universe had ALWAYS killed him in that
universe. You forgot that the multiverse takes time out of the
equation, since it it is one of the 11 dimensions.
>
> > I guess we hope that THIS shows writers pick one method of the time
> > travel paradox theory and stick to it!
I think it is unfair to assume they haven't until we see some evidence
of their reversing the polarity of the chronitons. Even though their
handling of evolution through mutation is something right out of the
creationist handbook.
Highlandish
in <Xns9888E57E1B966ag...@207.115.17.102>
> I loved the scene where the guy named after the show, Hiro, jumped to
> the wrong time and place, and was surrounded by Japanese managers in
> business suits doing their exercises on a lawn on a skyscraper
> rooftop. Then he couldn't get away!
>
> But how the hell could he jump correctly so many times in a row, and
> then have his powers crap out on him at just the right moment to ruin
> his mission? I hate it when they do that. It cheapens the whole
> concept. If they're gonna make their heroes omnipotent, they're
> gonna have to live with the consequences.
it was Freudian that he ended up at work, his subconscious believed he
should be back at work where he was sheltered and secure, he had a
routine where life went about with the same predictable banality. he
felt threatened when she went to kiss him, as he closed his eyes and
thought about how his life has changed from his office life, he zapped
back where he belongs, in the right time zone.
--
Reply no longer functions. attention me in this group instead
Why do banks charge you a "non-sufficient funds fee" on money they
already know you don't have? - Stephen Wright
Highlandish
<1164700498.7...@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>
i believe that Hiro's ability to go back in time does not cause a time
loop continuously. each time he goes back it is a new event, not a
destined event.
--
Reply no longer functions. attention me in this group instead
The Irish gave the bagpipes to the Scotts as a joke, but the Scotts
haven't seen the joke yet. - Oliver Herford
Highlandish
<vf0om2h8rg44off2a...@4ax.com>
and in the dinner when he was trying to convince her that he can bend
time and space, he filled the dinner with origami birds and also
replaced his tray with flowers, all perfectly coreographied with her
turning her head or blinking.
--
Reply no longer functions. attention me in this group instead
"A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of a message." "Q: Why is top
posting a sloppy form of writing?"
Agent Smith
news:281120060542151296%cmn-n...@houston.rr.com:
The total universe, that consists of the real universe and all possible
universes that might or even might not exist.
Agent Smith
@ken-reader.news.telstra.net:
> Quoth The Raven; Mike Allegretto <rall...@stny.rr.com> in
> <vf0om2h8rg44off2a...@4ax.com>
>> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 05:33:52 GMT, David Johnston <rgo...@block.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 03:33:34 GMT, Agent Smith
>>><agent...@two-blocks-on-your-left.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I loved the scene where the guy named after the show, Hiro, jumped
>>>>to the wrong time and place, and was surrounded by Japanese managers
>>>>in business suits doing their exercises on a lawn on a skyscraper
>>>>rooftop. Then he couldn't get away!
>>>>
>>>>But how the hell could he jump correctly so many times in a row,
>>>
>>>What are you talking about? He hasn't hit the right target while
>>>teleporting once yet.
>>
>> Actually he did when he escaped the blast in NYC and wound up back on
>> the train.
>
> and in the dinner when he was trying to convince her that he can bend
> time and space, he filled the dinner with origami birds and also
> replaced his tray with flowers, all perfectly coreographied with her
> turning her head or blinking.
That wasn't time travel; it was time stopping. He stopped time, stole
the paper for the origami and patiently folded it himself. Then he
restarted time. With all this time stopping, it's a wonder that he
doesn't age before our eyes.
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
>Oh...and he's not named after the show. He's named after Hiroshima; his
>grandfather was affected by the atomic bomb dropped there. They named
>him Hiro so that he would not forget.
Is that actually stated somewhere in the show? Because it's a bit of
a weirdly superfluous explanation - "Hiro" is a common component of
many Japanese names - I've known a Hiroyuki, a Hironori, and a
Masahiro, just off the top of my head. Probably more, actually, as I
live in a Japanese neighborhood.
E Brown
hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>On 27 Nov 2006 20:26:47 -0800, "jewahe" <jew...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Oh...and he's not named after the show. He's named after Hiroshima; his
>>grandfather was affected by the atomic bomb dropped there. They named
>>him Hiro so that he would not forget.
>
>Is that actually stated somewhere in the show?
No, it's written in one of the PDF comic books NBC publishes online
once a week.
epbrown
--
"Everybody wants a normal life and a cool car;
most people will settle for the car." Chris Titus
2003 BMW 325i Black/Black, 2003 BMW Z4 Black/Black
Ed
Agent Smith wrote:
> I loved the scene where the guy named after the show, Hiro, jumped to the
> wrong time and place, and was surrounded by Japanese managers in business
> suits doing their exercises on a lawn on a skyscraper rooftop. Then he
> couldn't get away!
>
> have his powers crap out on him at just the right moment to ruin his
> mission? I hate it when they do that. It cheapens the whole concept. If
> they're gonna make their heroes omnipotent, they're gonna have to live with
> the consequences.
Hiro's "big" jumps haven't worked yet. (Not counting future Hiro in the
samuri outfit). His first "big" jump to NYC was six weeks off. His
second "big" jump which was supposed to be one day went back six
months. I think the last jump to the building was actually accidental,
brought on by stress from the concept of the girl getting ready to kiss
him!
> And why the fu@k did they make the heroes mutants? That idea has been
> beaten to friggin' death. I figured that there'd be a Scientist Zero who
> was the source of the whole "outbreak." That would be Claire's dad.
Yeah, well, nothing's perfect.
Mark Nobles
> Agent Smith wrote:
> > I loved the scene where the guy named after the show, Hiro, jumped to the
> > wrong time and place, and was surrounded by Japanese managers in business
> > suits doing their exercises on a lawn on a skyscraper rooftop. Then he
> > couldn't get away!
> >
> > But how the hell could he jump correctly so many times in a row, and then
> > have his powers crap out on him at just the right moment to ruin his
> > mission? I hate it when they do that. It cheapens the whole concept. If
> > they're gonna make their heroes omnipotent, they're gonna have to live with
> > the consequences.
>
> Hiro's "big" jumps haven't worked yet. (Not counting future Hiro in the
> samuri outfit). His first "big" jump to NYC was six weeks off. His
> second "big" jump which was supposed to be one day went back six
> months. I think the last jump to the building was actually accidental,
> brought on by stress from the concept of the girl getting ready to kiss
> him!
I don't think it was the stress of getting kissed. When he was arrested
in Isaac's studio, he fainted. It was only when he saw bomb destroying
NYC that he leapt. So, it wasn't the kiss that sent him, it was finding
out that Charlie had the brain cloud and he couldn't do anything about
it.
>
> > And why the fu@k did they make the heroes mutants? That idea has been
> > beaten to friggin' death. I figured that there'd be a Scientist Zero who
> > was the source of the whole "outbreak." That would be Claire's dad.
>
> Yeah, well, nothing's perfect.
>
HRG is only following the results of the experiment. Now, do the
mutations have to be natural, or could they be the result of genetic
manipulation in a lab?
Ian Galbraith
> Ed <edrh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>> Hiro's "big" jumps haven't worked yet. (Not counting future Hiro in the
>> samuri outfit). His first "big" jump to NYC was six weeks off. His
>> second "big" jump which was supposed to be one day went back six
>> months. I think the last jump to the building was actually accidental,
>> brought on by stress from the concept of the girl getting ready to kiss
>> him!
>
> I don't think it was the stress of getting kissed.
Maybe it was the combination.
[snip]
--
You Can't Stop The Signal
netcrusher88
William December Starr wrote:
> In article <Xns9888E57E1B966ag...@207.115.17.102>,
> Agent Smith <agent...@two-blocks-on-your-left.com> said:
>
> > to the wrong time and place, and was surrounded by Japanese
> > managers in business suits doing their exercises on a lawn on a
> > skyscraper rooftop. Then he couldn't get away!
>
> pre-empowered Hiro among them) before, back during the solar eclipse
> in the first episode. He didn't arrive somewhere utterly random.
>
> > and then have his powers crap out on him at just the right moment
> > to ruin his mission?
>
> to ensure that Hiro's mission would fail, thereby enforcing the You
> Can't (Significantly) Change History super-rule.
>
> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Super rule... oh, the Third Commandment, right? Something about
causality and a time cone.
Mark Nobles
Agent Smith
news:ikpvm25vmjudlv4g7...@4ax.com:
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:36:16 GMT, Eric D. Berge <eric_berge @
> hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 27 Nov 2006 20:26:47 -0800, "jewahe" <jew...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Oh...and he's not named after the show. He's named after Hiroshima;
>>>his grandfather was affected by the atomic bomb dropped there. They
>>>named him Hiro so that he would not forget.
>>
>>Is that actually stated somewhere in the show?
>
> No, it's written in one of the PDF comic books NBC publishes online
> once a week.
Saying it doesn't make it so. Writers don't have the power to control
the interpretation of their work by saying "This is what it means."
Once it's been released, interpretation becomes the sole property of the
consumers. The only control that writers have over interpretation is in
the details of the creation. The rest is out of their hands.
John Dee
> Actually, he's only "jumped" correctly through time once - on his back
> from New York.
>
He also jumped correctly into the women's bathroom at that bar in first
episode.
Mark Nobles
That's one interpretation. Another interpretation is that even after
their work leaves their hands, the work of an artist still belongs to
him forever. That's why they sign their pieces, and that's why they
have a reputation that outlives them, and that's why it matters whether
the Van Gogh at the museum was painted by him or a very clever forger.
And by the way, that's why you can't buy the Mona Lisa and paint a
mustache on her.
But further, a traditional work of art is one piece, in one medium: a
book, a song, a picture. But a TV show includes all these things, as
part of a unified whole. Why can't the creators of a multi-media work
declare that the comic book is also part of the work? They are making
it, they get to say what it is.
Is a ballet just music? Or is it just dance? Or is it only ballet when
both parts come together? Are the costumes part of the art? What about
the program handed out at the theater that contains the background of
the characters?
And is "consumer" really the right word to use to describe the people
who watch TV shows and movies and read? I know I have seen that term
used other places, but I have never liked the idea. Art is not
consumed. Bread is consumed, but art is forever. Even after the "new"
wears off and it goes out of style, a work of art is still there.
William December Starr
"netcrusher88" <netcru...@gmail.com> said:
>> Because whatever runs the universe overrode the usual rules in
>> order to ensure that Hiro's mission would fail, thereby enforcing
>> the You Can't (Significantly) Change History super-rule.
>
> Super rule... oh, the Third Commandment, right? Something about
> causality and a time cone.
"Or else."
Agent Smith
216.168.3.44:
He also correctly jumped back to the present, after **supposedly** being
lost in time.
Agent Smith
news:1165054098....@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com:
What's a time cone?
Agent Smith
> Agent Smith <agent...@two-blocks-on-your-left.com> wrote:
>
>> E Brown <three...@att.net> wrote in
>> news:ikpvm25vmjudlv4g7...@4ax.com:
>>
>> > On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:36:16 GMT, Eric D. Berge <eric_berge @
>> > hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On 27 Nov 2006 20:26:47 -0800, "jewahe" <jew...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Oh...and he's not named after the show. He's named after
>> >>>Hiroshima; his grandfather was affected by the atomic bomb dropped
>> >>>there. They named him Hiro so that he would not forget.
>> >>
>> >>Is that actually stated somewhere in the show?
>> >
>> > No, it's written in one of the PDF comic books NBC publishes online
>> > once a week.
>>
>> Saying it doesn't make it so. Writers don't have the power to
>> control the interpretation of their work by saying "This is what it
>> means." Once it's been released, interpretation becomes the sole
>> property of the consumers. The only control that writers have over
>> interpretation is in the details of the creation. The rest is out of
>> their hands.
>
> That's one interpretation. Another interpretation is that even after
> their work leaves their hands, the work of an artist still belongs to
> him forever. That's why they sign their pieces, and that's why they
> have a reputation that outlives them, and that's why it matters
> whether the Van Gogh at the museum was painted by him or a very clever
> forger.
No it isn't *one* interpretationl; it's the **only** interpretation. If
you discard it, then everything you learned in high school English is a
lie. And if you discard high school english, then everything built on top
of that is also a lie, college English and graduate school English. And
when you discard that, all the work ever done by anyone with a college or
graduate English degree is wrong - millions of authors, some with Nobel
Prizes for literature, like Hemmingway and O'Neill, not to mention all the
other giants of literature.
"For want of a nail, a horse was lost," you airhead. If you can't get the
small details right, you're doomed to permanent incompetence. Your
argument is a pathetic crock, invented by people with shit where their
brains ought to be. I'll bet you got miserable grades in high school
English.
> And by the way, that's why you can't buy the Mona Lisa and paint a
> mustache on her.
That's also a crock, equivalent to rewriting Shakespeare and publishing
your pitiful arguments with his name on it. You'd like to destroy
Shakespeare and put his name on your psychotic ravings, but you'll never
get the chance.
David Johnston
Your claim is false. It's perfectly routine for literature teachers
to find ideas in various works that the author never intended.
jayembee
>> Super rule... oh, the Third Commandment, right? Something about
>> causality and a time cone.
>
> What's a time cone?
Kind of like the Cone of Silence, but with Time instead.
-- jayembee
Agent Smith
Mark Nobles
No argument about that. Have you heard of the psychological phenomenon
called "projection"? Just about anybody with an agenda finds support
wherever they look, whether it's there or not.
The argument is whether the author can respond to an announcement of
one of those ideas with his own interpretation of what he meant. If a
literary analyst writes that "Ender's Game" praises the success of
communism, can Orson Scott Card write
<http://www.hatrack.com/research/teachers/reading_ender.shtml>?
But more importantly, just because this analyst finds that theme, does
that mean it's there?
Mark Nobles
> jayembee <jayembe...@snurcher.com> wrote
>
> > Agent Smith <agent...@two-blocks-on-your-left.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Super rule... oh, the Third Commandment, right? Something about
> >>> causality and a time cone.
> >>
> >> What's a time cone?
> >
> > Kind of like the Cone of Silence, but with Time instead.
>
> No, seriously.
<http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/LIGHTCONE/minkowski.html>
Agent Smith
And what is it about projection is it that makes you think that isn't
how literature is *supposed* to operate? I'm sure you've heard the
cliche that the best literature has the most interpretations.
jayembee
> The argument is whether the author can respond to an announcement
> of one of those ideas with his own interpretation of what he meant.
> If a literary analyst writes that "Ender's Game" praises the
> success of communism, can Orson Scott Card write
> <http://www.hatrack.com/research/teachers/reading_ender.shtml>?
> But more importantly, just because this analyst finds that theme,
> does that mean it's there?
The late (sob!) John M. Ford once wrote: "All stories are really
three stories: the one the writer writes, the one the readers
read, and the one where the first two meet by moonlight."
-- jayembee
Clell Harmon
Orange things that mark work areas in the time stream...
Clell Harmon
Humerously demonstrated in the Rodney Dangerfield flick "Back to
School" where an literature paper on Vonegutt WRITTEN BY Vonegutt failed
and was marked that the author knew nothing of Vonegutt...
Highlandish
<HLsdh.1088186$084.884336@attbi_s22>
i thought it was time FOR A cone...
--
Reply no longer functions. attention me in this group instead
If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself
knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get
up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. - (Thomas
J. Watson)
George W Harris
<flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:(Charles Stross, _Singularity Sky_)
:
:Not "time cone", but "light cone". Basically, don't mess around with
:causality anywhere within the sphere of space defined by the distance
:light could travel from the birthplace of the Eschaton during the
:elapsed time since its birth. Plotted in four dimensions, a constantly
:expanding sphere is a cone. See?
Actually, I think you have that backwards. Don't
mess around with causality anywhere within the sphere of
space defined by the distance light could travel *to* the
birthplace of the Eschaton during the time *until* its birth.
Plotted in four dimensions, a constantly contracting sphere
is a cone, in this case with the apex at the time and place
of birth of the Eschaton.
It's concerned with causality violations that might
affect its birth.
--
"Intelligence is too complex to capture in a single number." -Alfred Binet
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
George W Harris
<flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:On 2006-12-11, George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
:> On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:41:22 -0500, Paul Arthur
:><flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:>
:>:(Charles Stross, _Singularity Sky_)
:>:
:>:Not "time cone", but "light cone". Basically, don't mess around with
:>:causality anywhere within the sphere of space defined by the distance
:>:light could travel from the birthplace of the Eschaton during the
:>:elapsed time since its birth. Plotted in four dimensions, a constantly
:>:expanding sphere is a cone. See?
:>
:> Actually, I think you have that backwards. Don't
:> mess around with causality anywhere within the sphere of
:> space defined by the distance light could travel *to* the
:> birthplace of the Eschaton during the time *until* its birth.
:> Plotted in four dimensions, a constantly contracting sphere
:> is a cone, in this case with the apex at the time and place
:> of birth of the Eschaton.
:>
:> It's concerned with causality violations that might
:> affect its birth.
:
:Um, yeah, that too. I forgot that it's symmetrical along the time axis
:as well as the space axes.
But my main point is that it doesn't care so much
about things happening after it's born; it mainly cares
about things happening before it's born, which might
prevent its birth.
--
Firefly Fan Since September 20th, 2002 - Browncoat Since Birth