"David Johnston" wrote in message news:k12qc4$ltq$1@dont-email.me... > On 8/22/2012 7:00 AM, KalElFan wrote:
>[...]
>> Your fallacy is assuming that *ANYTHING* you cited is
>> evidence one way or another on the issue of whether or
>> not the timeline can be changed. *OF_COURSE* Old Alec
>> has already experienced v1 of the timeline and has the
>> memories of what occurred.
> No "of course" about it...
In addition to the obtuseness, you have a problem conceding
agreement. Nothing you said after the above refutes our
"Of course" agreement that Old Alec remembers Kiera being
sent back and so on. The issue is whether this precludes
a v2 or even multiple iterations of the timeline, which it
doesn't. Then you take your failure to concede agreement
on this tangent here...
> Everything that occured "this time around" occured
> because of things that old Alec did.
Unless Old Alec is somehow God or Fate or Destiny or the
like, he doesn't cause and hasn't caused more than a near-
infinitesimally small number of events in the Earth (let
alone universal) scheme of things.
Though I prefer a v1 and v2 creative approach to the
timeline in this series, arguably it's a stretch to think
Old Alec gets it right on his first Do Over attempt. So
they could write it that Alec's been through this multiple
times. The way they could make this attempt special
is that he's getting closer and this is and/or has to be
his final attempt for some way-time-works reason.
> If v1 of the timeline is one in which Alec didn't do any
> of those things...
Where v1 is the current timeline that started the series
(we could learn it's really Old Alec's 14th try or whatever),
v1 is *BY_DEFINITION* the one Old Alec v1 remembers
having occurred.
> it should be a timeline in which Liber8 and Kiera never
> went back in time.
It *CAN'T* be that if Old Alec remembers it happening.
You're stating idiot-obvious facts but then leaping to
a conclusion (one timeline, no possible changes, no v2
or incremental iterations) that simply doesn't follow.
Kiera can go back as she did, but events can change
and those events will NOT be remembered by Old Alec
v1 as having occurred. It's Young Alec who experiences
and remembers those v2 events.
>> If the creative plan is that Alec is manipulating a v2
>> timeline, we won't know when the divergence takes
>> place or took place, unless and until they tell us. If
>> we had to pick a single point now,it might be when
>> Kellog's grandmother was killed.
> Which we'd have to because that's the only thing
> suggesting that events might not be fixed.
It's a big honking clue, duh. But we don't know when
"Escher" went back for example, if indeed he did, or if
Tin Foil Guy is feigning the insanity and really did go
back to 1992. Also, Old Alec's sequence of sending
anyone back from circa 2077 doesn't have to be the
same sequence in terms of the era that they arrived
in in the past. I'm in favor of the show ultimately
keeping this next and last iteration of the timeline
as simple as possible though, and episode 5 called
"Test of Time" would be a good divergence point to
look back on from a series perspective.
> doesn't. Then you take your failure to concede agreement
> on this tangent here...
>> Everything that occured "this time around" occured
>> because of things that old Alec did.
> Unless Old Alec is somehow God or Fate or Destiny or the
> like, he doesn't cause and hasn't caused more than a near-
> infinitesimally small number of events in the Earth (let
> alone universal) scheme of things.
A meaningless quibble. All the events of the series happened because Old Alec gave the time device to the terrorist and told him what to do. Therefore either history doesn't change or in the first version of history Young Alec never met Kiera, the building in the present never collapsed and either the historians of Kiera's time are wrong about the significance of the building collapse, or Old Alec's time tampering has all been aimed at creating a dystopian future in which he's dictator.
>> If v1 of the timeline is one in which Alec didn't do any
>> of those things...
> Where v1 is the current timeline that started the series
> (we could learn it's really Old Alec's 14th try or whatever),
> v1 is *BY_DEFINITION* the one Old Alec v1 remembers
> having occurred.
>> it should be a timeline in which Liber8 and Kiera never
>> went back in time.
> It *CAN'T* be that if Old Alec remembers it happening.
If it isn't that, it isn't v1.
>>> If the creative plan is that Alec is manipulating a v2
>>> timeline, we won't know when the divergence takes
>>> place or took place, unless and until they tell us. If
>>> we had to pick a single point now,it might be when
>>> Kellog's grandmother was killed.
>> Which we'd have to because that's the only thing
>> suggesting that events might not be fixed.
> It's a big honking clue, duh. But we don't know when
> "Escher" went back for example, if indeed he did,
So that isn't a thing suggesting that events might not be fixed.
or if
> Tin Foil Guy is feigning the insanity and really did go
> back to 1992.
So that isn't a thing suggesting that event might not be fixed. And there is no reason why he can't be both insane and a time traveller
Also, Old Alec's sequence of sending
> anyone back from circa 2077 doesn't have to be the
> same sequence in terms of the era that they arrived
> in in the past.
So that isn't a thing suggesting that events might not be fixed.
So when you say "all the evidence" it boils down to "there is one bit of evidence" and you deny the existence of contrary evidence because it is contrary to what you want.
I get it. I do. We have to believe in free will. We just have to.
> which it
> > doesn't. Then you take your failure to concede agreement
> > on this tangent here...
> >> Everything that occured "this time around" occured
> >> because of things that old Alec did.
> > Unless Old Alec is somehow God or Fate or Destiny or the
> > like, he doesn't cause and hasn't caused more than a near-
> > infinitesimally small number of events in the Earth (let
> > alone universal) scheme of things.
> A meaningless quibble. All the events of the series happened because > Old Alec gave the time device to the terrorist and told him what to do. > Therefore either history doesn't change or in the first version of > history Young Alec never met Kiera, the building in the present never > collapsed and either the historians of Kiera's time are wrong about the > significance of the building collapse, or Old Alec's time tampering has > all been aimed at creating a dystopian future in which he's dictator.
> >> If v1 of the timeline is one in which Alec didn't do any
> >> of those things...
> > Where v1 is the current timeline that started the series
> > (we could learn it's really Old Alec's 14th try or whatever),
> > v1 is *BY_DEFINITION* the one Old Alec v1 remembers
> > having occurred.
> >> it should be a timeline in which Liber8 and Kiera never
> >> went back in time.
> > It *CAN'T* be that if Old Alec remembers it happening.
> If it isn't that, it isn't v1.
> >>> If the creative plan is that Alec is manipulating a v2
> >>> timeline, we won't know when the divergence takes
> >>> place or took place, unless and until they tell us. If
> >>> we had to pick a single point now,it might be when
> >>> Kellog's grandmother was killed.
> >> Which we'd have to because that's the only thing
> >> suggesting that events might not be fixed.
> > It's a big honking clue, duh. But we don't know when
> > "Escher" went back for example, if indeed he did,
> So that isn't a thing suggesting that events might not be fixed.
> or if
> > Tin Foil Guy is feigning the insanity and really did go
> > back to 1992.
> So that isn't a thing suggesting that event might not be fixed. And > there is no reason why he can't be both insane and a time traveller
> Also, Old Alec's sequence of sending
> > anyone back from circa 2077 doesn't have to be the
> > same sequence in terms of the era that they arrived
> > in in the past.
> So that isn't a thing suggesting that events might not be fixed.
> So when you say "all the evidence" it boils down to "there is one bit of > evidence" and you deny the existence of contrary evidence because it is > contrary to what you want.
> I get it. I do. We have to believe in free will. We just have to.
If I have it right, in David's version of Continuum Old Alec thinks he can change the future by sending people back in time but it is a completely futile act. IOW the past is immutable.
In KalElFan's version he possibly does it multiple times.
However, I think, even with with free will, people will
do the same things unless something urges them to do differently. What is this something, and where does it come from? If it doesn't exist the whole exercise is again futile.
If Old Alec sees the future is changed a little I can believe he would do it more than once. Would he have the memory to see it changed?
And this whole discussion is probably futile if there is no Season 2!
-- David Barnett
>> So when you say "all the evidence" it boils down to "there is one bit of
>> evidence" and you deny the existence of contrary evidence because it is
>> contrary to what you want.
>> I get it. I do. We have to believe in free will. We just have to.
> If I have it right, in David's version of Continuum Old
> Alec thinks he can change the future by sending people
> back in time but it is a completely futile act.IOW the
> past is immutable.
I don't think he thinks he can change anything that has already happened. He's just playing his role in predetermined events since after all, they end up with him being the most powerful man in North America.
>>> Five episodes into the series, that creative strategy may have
>>> made sense. Twenty episodes into it, late season two or into
>>> season 3 if they get one, I think it becomes more problematic.
>>> The show becomes a prequel to some crap 2077 future that
>>> won't change one iota up to the point we saw in the premiere.
>> You do realize that, if we accept your argument as valid, it
>> would also mean that the premises behind such movies as
>> "Alien vs. Predator" and the Star Wars prequel trilogy were
>> "problematic" as well?
> Both or those are movies not TV series.
They're movie *series*.
> Also, in the Star Wars case, the first trilogy was iconic
> and had a gloriously happy and triumphant ending.
Doesn't matter. The prequel trilogy had to be headed toward tragedy to set up the Empire and Darth Vader.
> Trying to make a TV series with a crap dystopian ending like
> Continuum,
Who says that's the ending? They could catch up to 2077 and fix things there. You'd have the same complaint about Star Wars if the narrative order had been Episode IV, Episode V, then flashback to Episodes I-III, and only at the end Episode VI.
> Also, Alien vs. Predator was just a stunt crossover movie
> and wasn't particularly successful (<$100M domestic gross
> and its followup less than half that).
> If I have it right, in David's version of Continuum Old
> Alec thinks he can change the future by sending people
> back in time but it is a completely futile act. IOW the
> past is immutable.
Yes, and consistent with that would be one of David's
latest suggestions, which was that Old Alec was simply
going through the motions to solidify his Poobah 2077
status.
> In KalElFan's version [the timeline can be changed and]
> he [Old Alec] possibly does it multiple times.
Obviously it's possible there have been previous iterations.
Another poster was the first to mention that some months
ago. I think it's better to go with just v1 and v2 (as the
Continuum double-O logo suggests), but it's arguable.
It's like the issue of whether Old Alec is being altruistic
or for some reason turned really bad. Based on Young
Alec I think atruistic makes more sense, but Young Alec
the nemesis of his older self could also be interesting.
I prefer that Alec be good though, and interestingly
that's what Erik Knudsen also said he prefers at the
Fan Expo Panel.
> However, I think, even with... free will, people will do
> the same things unless something urges them to do
> differently.
Maybe, but the premise here would be Old Alec wanting
a Do Over and hoping to turn the crap timeline into a
better one. Even if he were bad and wanted a Do Over
to increase his power even more, he'd be manipulating
a v2 of the timeline there too. It's only under David's No
Possible Change No Free Will Fate Has Predetermined
Everything that it all just circles back to the 2077 that
we saw in the premiere.
> If Old Alec sees the future is changed a little I can
> believe he would do it more than once. Would he
> have the memory to see it changed?
Possibly -- it's what the "Read First" message establishes.
Young Alec can be told not only how v1 played out, but
given the advanced technology could even get all or part
of Old Alec's memories of it downloaded. If and when
that does happen, there could be six iterations worth
of memories. Old Alec may remember the date that he
received the previous five iterations, in 2017 or whenever
the show's last season is. :-) (But I prefer just v1 and v2,
one Do Over, difficult to achieve, no prior iterations.)
> And this whole discussion is probably futile if there is
> no Season 2!
There is now!
If nothing else, methinks TPTB's minds -- Simon Barry's
at least -- are "out there" enough to give us something
creative. Here's another reason why...
When Deadline put the name Alec Sadler as an actor in
the cast earlier today (it's since been fixed, changed to
Erik Knudsen), it convinced me to look up "Sadler". At
the Fan Expo panel, that suite101 article link above
mentions they couldn't use the name "Kyra" for legal
reasons and it became "Kiera." I gave the "Escher" link
a while back, i.e. the guy Continuum was giving a nod
to there. So I thought I'd look up Sadler. Sure enough:
He was a psychiatrist who studied under Freud, and he
wrote a book about a patient he [Sadler] had who was
supposedly channeling extraterrestrials. He relayed
their knowledge of everything and it ended up this:
And get this. Sadler also married a niece of THE Kellogg,
the cereal guy. Continuum dropped the extra g to give us
the good(?) Liber8 guy and potential Kiera love interest
Kellog. That Urantia Book also has its own mythology, for
lack of a better description, on all kinds of things. There
are seven "superuniverses" for example. I'd never heard
of it nor William Sadler before today, but maybe Barry is
telling us Sadler and Kellog have some connection, eh?
Maybe Kellog is "Escher."
As for the 7 number, could mean 7 iterations but maybe
it's just the remaining number of Liber8 folk now. :-)
>> If I have it right, in David's version of Continuum Old
>> Alec thinks he can change the future by sending people
>> back in time but it is a completely futile act. IOW the
>> past is immutable.
> Yes, and consistent with that would be one of David's
> latest suggestions, which was that Old Alec was simply
> going through the motions to solidify his Poobah 2077
> status.
And by "consistent" you mean "totally inconsistent". There is no indication that Old Alec is trying to change history.
>>> If I have it right, in David's version of Continuum Old
>>> Alec thinks he can change the future by sending people
>>> back in time but it is a completely futile act. IOW the
>>> past is immutable.
>> Yes, and consistent with that would be one of David's
>> latest suggestions, which was that Old Alec was simply
>> going through the motions to solidify his Poobah 2077
>> status.
> And by "consistent" you mean "totally inconsistent".
> There is no indication that Old Alec is trying to change
> history.
I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt with the
other David's use of "change the future". Old Alec's
future is post-2077. Earlier, you had predicted that
Kiera would go back -- to the FUTURE! :-) -- after however
long spent in the past, to bring down the corporate nutjob
regime. I think you also alluded to Old Alec perhaps wanting
to improve his position as he did by not being within the
blast radius of the 2077 event.
This "future future war" that would take place post-2077,
after this series had wasted our time circling back to the
same place it started, tied in with your prediction, as if it
were fact, that Escher was popping back and forth in time.
So once Kiera figured out how to do that she'd go back --
to the FUTURE! -- and battle Old Alec or maybe join him.
Originally I mentioned Star Trek IV and humpback whales
as the obvious comparative for why Kiera needed to go
back. But given the show's suggestion in one episode
that horses may be rare if not extinct, maybe she needs
to bring back horse manure. Perhaps it's the final piece,
uh, of the puzzle that Old Alec needs to ensure his rule
lasts at least another 10-15 years or his remaining life
expectancy, whichever comes first.
Or maybe there are no humpbacks and no horse manure,
just Fate that made her go back, and then return, for no
particular reason at all. Simon Barry couldn't do better
because that Sadler book with the extraterrestrial mumbo
jumbo didn't provide any guidance.
You could be right. We might be getting historically, and
hysterically, pointless crap rather than the landmark TV
series that that Syfy UK exec was babbling about.
>>>> If I have it right, in David's version of Continuum Old
>>>> Alec thinks he can change the future by sending people
>>>> back in time but it is a completely futile act. IOW the
>>>> past is immutable.
>>> Yes, and consistent with that would be one of David's
>>> latest suggestions, which was that Old Alec was simply
>>> going through the motions to solidify his Poobah 2077
>>> status.
>> And by "consistent" you mean "totally inconsistent".
>> There is no indication that Old Alec is trying to change
>> history.
> I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt with the
> other David's use of "change the future". Old Alec's
> future is post-2077.
Oh, I see what you're talking about. Yes, I believe that Old Alec plans to make some changes to the status quo of his time but has concluded that this past is unchangeable
