Dollhouse--Now that we're cancelled let's make it accessible
Ken from Chicago
accessible episodes to the mainstream public: exciting, clear villains and
heroes,, protagonists who actually take the initiative instead of just
flailing or reacting, and where Echo has become ... The Pretender (a show
which lasted 4 years on NBC).
Odd, that could have been how the series went. Echo goes on engagements to
do one thing, but her special gift allows her to "sense" what's really wrong
and fix it. Boom. There's how you could have done the one-episode stories.
Sure, the Whedon twist would avoid simple stories but add his own flavor of
twists and occassionally she would tragically fail, but that would have been
better than the attempts at one-episode stories the show has done.
-- Ken from Chicago
P.S. "There are pretenders among us, dolls with the ability to become anyone
you want them to be. In 2006, a corporation known as Rossum isolated a young
woman named Caroline and exploited her dollness for their research. Then one
day, their doll ran away ...."
Adam H. Kerman
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>Ironic that now, after DOLLHOUSE has been cancelled, we get the most
>accessible episodes to the mainstream public: exciting, clear villains and
>heroes,, protagonists who actually take the initiative instead of just
>flailing or reacting, and where Echo has become ... The Pretender (a show
>which lasted 4 years on NBC).
>Odd, that could have been how the series went. Echo goes on engagements to
>do one thing, but her special gift allows her to "sense" what's really wrong
>and fix it. Boom. There's how you could have done the one-episode stories.
>Sure, the Whedon twist would avoid simple stories but add his own flavor of
>twists and occassionally she would tragically fail, but that would have been
>better than the attempts at one-episode stories the show has done.
>P.S. "There are pretenders among us, dolls with the ability to become anyone
>you want them to be. In 2006, a corporation known as Rossum isolated a young
>woman named Caroline and exploited her dollness for their research. Then one
>day, their doll ran away ...."
Eliza Dushku's curvy figure approaches Barbie-like dimensions.
Happy 29th Birthday, December 30. She'll soon be too old to play college kids
and interns.
I didn't care for either of tonight's episodes. Victor's group think
adventure didn't work for me; would have been fun if he was kidnapped by
Rossum's corporate takeover division instead of its mercenary division.
Then he could have had some Dilbert-like adventures in corporate America.
The Attic was a major disappointment. Didn't some little movie from 10 years
ago explore exactly the same idea? Caroline is getting retconned yet again.
Adelle not evil after all? Boo, hiss.
Taylor
wrote:
> Ironic that now, after DOLLHOUSE has been cancelled, we get the most
> accessible episodes to the mainstream public: exciting, clear villains and
> heroes,, protagonists who actually take the initiative instead of just
> flailing or reacting, and where Echo has become ... The Pretender (a show
> which lasted 4 years on NBC).
>
I'm sorry, but I have to call b.s on this. More accessible?! It was on
FOX PRIMETIME and Fox even (((renewed))) it after a rather wobbly
first season when viewers and critics didn't like the direction of the
show, it got retooled and people STILL didn't bite. It's not like it
was always hidden on a Friday night (sure at the end it was). Fox
pretty much gave the show all the chances it could get.
Obveeus
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Ironic that now, after DOLLHOUSE has been cancelled, we get the most
> accessible episodes to the mainstream public:
By 'most accessible' are you referencing the massive amount of dialog (in
last nights episode pairing ) used by the characters to directly talk to the
home viewer, explaining what tney were doing and why it would work? Sheesh,
it was like watching one of those CSI shows that another thread here on
r.a.tv has been complaining about this week. Way too much 'exposition' for
my taste, even if that does make it accessible to the mainstream. It simply
felt to me like some poor writers know that they have to get from point A
(where the show is) to point B (where the show needs to go by the end) too
fast for substanitive storytelling. So, in the absense of being able to
show us hwat is going on with a story, they have the characters explain what
is going on through cliff notes style summary.
> exciting, clear villains and heroes
Clear? So which one is Adelle this week? Which one is the old Dollhouse
security head this week?
> ,, protagonists who actually take the initiative instead of just flailing
> or reacting, and where Echo has become ... The Pretender (a show which
> lasted 4 years on NBC).
I agree with that completely. Echo having full control over her database
does make her 'The Pretender' and that is a good development.
David Johnston
<lukeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 19, 6:29�am, "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>> Ironic that now, after DOLLHOUSE has been cancelled, we get the most
>> accessible episodes to the mainstream public: exciting, clear villains and
>> heroes,, protagonists who actually take the initiative instead of just
>> flailing or reacting, and where Echo has become ... The Pretender (a show
>> which lasted 4 years on NBC).
>>
>
>I'm sorry, but I have to call b.s on this. More accessible?! It was on
>FOX PRIMETIME and Fox even (((renewed))) it after a rather wobbly
>first season when viewers and critics didn't like the direction of the
>show, it got retooled and people STILL didn't bite. It's not like it
>was always hidden on a Friday night (sure at the end it was). Fox
>pretty much gave the show all the chances it could get.
He wasn't referring to timeslot.
Anlatt the Builder
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On the one hand, I'm enjoying the show quite a bit. I think it's
because there are now characters - not just Echo, but Boyd and Topher
and the rest - who are trying to accomplish something valuable, not
just make "engagements" work out without any Actives getting killed.
On the other hand, I think that, because the show has been cancelled,
they're in a tremendous rush to cover a lot of ground quickly, and
that has led them to write stories that don't really make any sense
within the context of the show.
For example, if Rossum wanted Victor for a program of theirs, they
would have simply requisitioned him. They own the Dollhouse. (As
Adelle pointed out, Victor was transferred in from a different house.
He could have been transferred out just as easily.)
Kidnapping Victor immediately after he was released - when protocol
dictates that he's being monitored and checked by his Dollhouse - was
wildly conspicuous and would lead to trouble even if it wasn't "Echo's
House." Maybe just ordering Victor to be turned over to them would
have led to some other problem, but it still makes far more sense.
Obveeus
"Anlatt the Builder" <tir...@aol.com> wrote:
> On the other hand, I think that, because the show has been cancelled,
> they're in a tremendous rush to cover a lot of ground quickly, and
> that has led them to write stories that don't really make any sense
> within the context of the show.
>
> For example, if Rossum wanted Victor for a program of theirs, they
> would have simply requisitioned him. They own the Dollhouse. (As
> Adelle pointed out, Victor was transferred in from a different house.
> He could have been transferred out just as easily.)
It certainly sounded last week like that was what was going to happen.
Victor was likely set to be shipped off to South Africa to end the
'grouping' problem.
> Kidnapping Victor immediately after he was released - when protocol
> dictates that he's being monitored and checked by his Dollhouse - was
> wildly conspicuous and would lead to trouble even if it wasn't "Echo's
> House." Maybe just ordering Victor to be turned over to them would
> have led to some other problem, but it still makes far more sense.
Agreed. Just ordering Victor's turnover seems like an easy solution...and
then threatening/attic-ing Adelle as needed to quell her complaints about
Victor's contract being up. Along those lines, you would think that Rossum
could have generated a fake feedback signal to look like Victor was still
operational seeing as how they knew the monitoring device was in place.
David Johnston
>
>"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Ironic that now, after DOLLHOUSE has been cancelled, we get the most
>> accessible episodes to the mainstream public:
>
>By 'most accessible' are you referencing the massive amount of dialog (in
>last nights episode pairing ) used by the characters to directly talk to the
>home viewer, explaining what tney were doing and why it would work?
What he probably means is:
Echo now has a distinct personality of her own
The characters are no longer generally despicable, at best idiots.
Pete B
kwicker1...@comcast.net says...
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
>
> P.S. "There are pretenders among us, dolls with the ability to become anyone
> you want them to be. In 2006, a corporation known as Rossum isolated a young
> woman named Caroline and exploited her dollness for their research. Then one
> day, their doll ran away ...."
Escaped into the Los Angeles underground, the Dolls fight injustice
Pete B
@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, lukeb...@gmail.com says...
> On Dec 19, 6:29�am, "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > Ironic that now, after DOLLHOUSE has been cancelled, we get the most
> > accessible episodes to the mainstream public: exciting, clear villains and
> > heroes,, protagonists who actually take the initiative instead of just
> > flailing or reacting, and where Echo has become ... The Pretender (a show
> > which lasted 4 years on NBC).
> >
>
> I'm sorry, but I have to call b.s on this.
No, you are the bs.
> More accessible?! It was on
> FOX PRIMETIME and Fox even (((renewed))) it after a rather wobbly
> first season when viewers and critics didn't like the direction of the
> show,
All irrelevant, he was talking about now - not then.
> it got retooled
Not really.
> and people STILL didn't bite. It's not like it
> was always hidden on a Friday night (sure at the end it was). Fox
> pretty much gave the show all the chances it could get.
So fucking what? None of what you spewed was releated to what he said.
Ken Arromdee
It has been my theory that Dollhouse is a resume-building exercise for Eliza
Dukshu. Every time there's another episode where Echo takes on a different
personality, she can use that episode as evidence that she has experience
acting as a different type of character.
Giving Echo a main personality isn't in her best interests, which is why
it happened so late.
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
Obi-wan Kenobi: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
Yoda: "Do or do not. There is no 'try'."
Dimensional Traveler
> "Anlatt the Builder" <tir...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On the other hand, I think that, because the show has been cancelled,
>> they're in a tremendous rush to cover a lot of ground quickly, and
>> that has led them to write stories that don't really make any sense
>> within the context of the show.
>>
>> For example, if Rossum wanted Victor for a program of theirs, they
>> would have simply requisitioned him. They own the Dollhouse. (As
>> Adelle pointed out, Victor was transferred in from a different house.
>> He could have been transferred out just as easily.)
>
> It certainly sounded last week like that was what was going to happen.
> Victor was likely set to be shipped off to South Africa to end the
> 'grouping' problem.
>
But this did bring to my attention one inconsistency. If Victor was
transferred in from a different House, why would Topher need to remember
where he was standing when he turned Victor into a Doll?
--
"Dude. They've gone fractal."
David Johnston
Topher worked at the previous house?
One Bit Shy
"Dimensional Traveler" <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4b2d4633$0$1618$742e...@news.sonic.net...
He wasn't transferred from another house. He came direct from the military
as a way of dumping their PTSD problems. The same with the other military
guys he was joined up. They specifically referred to 5 year programs for
them too.
OBS
Adam H. Kerman
There was dialogue to that effect. In fact, he was retconned within the
same episode. "Stop-Loss" was the first episode in which we had learned
that he had been a soldier in his past life.
One Bit Shy
news:hgjp53$tf0$2...@news.albasani.net...
I don't believe his past has been explicitly laid out previously, but the
first flashback implying a military past was in last season's "Echoes", the
7th episode of the series. We also saw a clearer flashback in this season's
"Belonging". (Episode 4) There may be other examples, but those are what
come to mind quickly.
The dialogue I assume you refer to in "Stop Loss" goes as follows:
Boyd: Usually you handle Active releases. I thought it gave you a sense of
satisfaction, seeing them through.
DeWitt: When I've recruited them. Victor was assigned to this house. He
wouldn't know me from you.
No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to something
else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon here.
OBS
Obveeus
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>> There was dialogue to that effect. In fact, he was retconned within the
>> same episode. "Stop-Loss" was the first episode in which we had learned
>> that he had been a soldier in his past life.
>
> I don't believe his past has been explicitly laid out previously, but the
> first flashback implying a military past was in last season's "Echoes",
> the 7th episode of the series. We also saw a clearer flashback in this
> season's "Belonging". (Episode 4) There may be other examples, but those
> are what come to mind quickly.
>
> The dialogue I assume you refer to in "Stop Loss" goes as follows:
>
> Boyd: Usually you handle Active releases. I thought it gave you a sense
> of satisfaction, seeing them through.
> DeWitt: When I've recruited them. Victor was assigned to this house. He
> wouldn't know me from you.
>
> No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to something
> else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon
> here.
Thank you for the clarification on past references to Victor's backstory as
well as clarification on what was actually said in this episode.
Rich
news:hgjd8a$fnp$2...@blue.rahul.net:
> In article <696qi5dh0s4lkrbc0...@4ax.com>,
> David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
>>Echo now has a distinct personality of her own
>
> It has been my theory that Dollhouse is a resume-building exercise for
> Eliza Dukshu. Every time there's another episode where Echo takes on
> a different personality, she can use that episode as evidence that she
> has experience acting as a different type of character.
>
> Giving Echo a main personality isn't in her best interests, which is
> why it happened so late.
Dushku has had here kicks at the can. She likely won't be headlining
anything again.
JRStern
<a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>I didn't care for either of tonight's episodes. Victor's group think
>adventure didn't work for me; would have been fun if he was kidnapped by
>Rossum's corporate takeover division instead of its mercenary division.
>Then he could have had some Dilbert-like adventures in corporate America.
>
>The Attic was a major disappointment. Didn't some little movie from 10 years
>ago explore exactly the same idea? Caroline is getting retconned yet again.
>
>Adelle not evil after all? Boo, hiss.
Yah. Same complaint I've been making, they throw plot elements around
waaay too fast for moi, and in random directions, no time spent
developing any, I was calling it "attention deficit television" but
maybe it's more like "pinball plotting".
There's a little too much Echo magic, knocking down doors and all, and
come on, using the brains for their "mainframe", who uses mainframes
anymore? That's sort of William Gibson's "Count Zero" stuff, but that
was written like 20 years ago now, Jurassic age, man. :)
J.
T987654321
better.
David Johnston
wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 11:42:29 +0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
><a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>>I didn't care for either of tonight's episodes. Victor's group think
>>adventure didn't work for me; would have been fun if he was kidnapped by
>>Rossum's corporate takeover division instead of its mercenary division.
>>Then he could have had some Dilbert-like adventures in corporate America.
>>
>>The Attic was a major disappointment. Didn't some little movie from 10 years
>>ago explore exactly the same idea? Caroline is getting retconned yet again.
>>
>>Adelle not evil after all? Boo, hiss.
>
>Yah. Same complaint I've been making, they throw plot elements around
>waaay too fast for moi, and in random directions, no time spent
>developing any, I was calling it "attention deficit television" but
>maybe it's more like "pinball plotting".
>
>There's a little too much Echo magic, knocking down doors and all, and
>come on, using the brains for their "mainframe", who uses mainframes
>anymore?
Governments, large corporations, and academic institutions. Believe
it or not, there are still uses for big computers.
Adam H. Kerman
That's retconning Adele. Since when does she recruit? She means intake.
If Adele didn't do the intake, that means he was dolled up somewhere else.
That doesn't rule out Topher implanting the architecture in his brain out
in the field somewhere, but you'd think it would have taken place in a
controlled secret environment, and not at a VA hospital.
Unless VA is contracting stuff out to Rossum too, which I suppose could
be possible.
Dimensional Traveler
Not my impression. Rossum seems to compartmentalize the Dollhouses
pretty severely. Note the fact that until Topher had been to the DC
House they didn't have a clue that each House was working on some
specific, _different_, part of a larger plan.
One Bit Shy
news:hgk1f9$amj$5...@news.albasani.net...
Since the very first scene of the series when she was recruiting Caroline.
Adelle has always taken on responsibility for selling people on signing
their 5 year contracts. There may be other people involved in recruiting
and their certainly are other sources of dolls, but she's always played a
major role in recruiting.
> She means intake.
No, the whole point is that the ones she personally sees out of the house
are the ones she established a personal relationship with on the way in -
the ones she actively encouraged to sign up.
> If Adele didn't do the intake, that means he was dolled up somewhere else.
I'm not sure what "intake" means to you, but I take it to be the
administrative and technical process following a doll being signed up. Now
forgetting for the moment that "intake" was not the word used, let me point
out that "dolling up" as you put it is a technical process that would be
performed by Topher - not Adelle - no matter how the person was brought to
the house. Whether or not Adelle got to know the recruit first, Topher is
still going to put he/she into the chair. So there's no implication that it
had to happen elsewhere.
> That doesn't rule out Topher implanting the architecture in his brain out
> in the field somewhere, but you'd think it would have taken place in a
> controlled secret environment, and not at a VA hospital.
Only if the equipment were brought into the field with him. The story would
seem to indicate that wasn't feasible 5 years ago. But then there's nothing
said to point that direction anyway. Rossum got these guys straight from
the military. They were "assigned" to various dollhouses where they were
converted into actives. It's just another source of dolls - like prisons
used to be in the early days. Evidently the dollhouses didn't know that
Rossum had special future plans for them. They were just told that the 5
year term was in exchange for curing the PTSD.
> Unless VA is contracting stuff out to Rossum too, which I suppose could
> be possible.
Maybe. It was done through a division of Rossum that's equated to
Blackwater. This is more detail than the show reaches down to. But I doubt
the VA would be involved. It seems more like an arrangement directly with
the military. It looks like the soldiers are discharged directly to the
Dollhouses.
OBS
Pete B
says...
> They were going to ship Sierra off to Dubai.
>
> But this did bring to my attention one inconsistency. If Victor was
> transferred in from a different House, why would Topher need to remember
> where he was standing when he turned Victor into a Doll?
She said she didn't recruit him, not that he was transferred
Pete B
O...@nomail.sorry says...
> No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to something
> else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon here.
>
>
Surely if there is a retcon its that suddenly dolls need to have
implanents, that didn't show up until a few episodes ago.
Pete B
JRS...@foobar.invalid says...
More like the TechnoCore - but either way its just a word
One Bit Shy
news:MPG.2597bb62d...@news.usenetserver.com...
I'm not sure what you mean by that. GPS tracking isn't new. I'm not sure
when the tagging was first mentioned, but I think it's implied by the
capability. Or perhaps you're referring to the - what did they call it
now - active architecture? Something like that. The term is new, but I
think it represents finally getting around to fleshing out a little the
process they've mostly left vague, rather than any real retcon. Just a
little fleshing out mind you. Dollhouse works hard to avoid really
explaining the technical stuff. Which makes sense. It's pretty much all
made up nonsense that defies explanation.
OBS
Adam H. Kerman
>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>>The dialogue I assume you refer to in "Stop Loss" goes as follows:
>>>Boyd: Usually you handle Active releases. I thought it gave you a sense
>>>of satisfaction, seeing them through.
>>>DeWitt: When I've recruited them. Victor was assigned to this house. He
>>>wouldn't know me from you.
>>>No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to something
>>>else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon
>>>here.
>>That's retconning Adele. Since when does she recruit?
>Since the very first scene of the series when she was recruiting Caroline.
Adele certainly did not recruit Caroline. Caroline attacked a Rossum lab.
Rossum captured her. Adele gave her a choice of jail or becoming a Doll,
which was probably a false choice; undoubtably Caroline would have been
killed or sent immediately to the Attic. I suppose now that Adele has been
retconned as a hero, that entire scene was meant to distract us.
>Adelle has always taken on responsibility for selling people on signing
>their 5 year contracts.
She gives them a choice of two kinds of Hell. Adele has found none of their
potential slaves, so there's no recruiting going on.
From what I can tell, Rossum preys on people at vulnerable moments and
some of the Dolls, Sierra and probably Victor, were outright kidnapped.
I do not agree with you.
>>She means intake.
>No, the whole point is that the ones she personally sees out of the house
>are the ones she established a personal relationship with on the way in -
>the ones she actively encouraged to sign up.
I knew what she was referring to.
>>If Adele didn't do the intake, that means he was dolled up somewhere else.
>I'm not sure what "intake" means to you, but I take it to be the
>administrative and technical process following a doll being signed up.
Recruitment means Rossum has selected a victim. There are probably no
instances of actual volunteering; Rossum may have created artificial
situations in the real world simulating stress. In Victor's case, battlefield
stress was ideal. In the Senator's case, well, they just grabbed him.
>Now forgetting for the moment that "intake" was not the word used, let
>me point out that "dolling up" as you put it is a technical process that
>would be performed by Topher - not Adelle - no matter how the person
>was brought to the house.
Of course, which is why I really don't understand how Topher installed
Victor's mental architecture without Adele being involved at all.
>Whether or not Adelle got to know the recruit first, Topher is still
>going to put he/she into the chair. So there's no implication that it
>had to happen elsewhere.
We know what Adele is like when she feels she's lost control of the House,
so that suggests that Victor was dolled up elsewhere. Seems to me that
denying Adele her tea ceremony is a challenge to her authority.
>>That doesn't rule out Topher implanting the architecture in his brain out
>>in the field somewhere, but you'd think it would have taken place in a
>>controlled secret environment, and not at a VA hospital.
>Only if the equipment were brought into the field with him. The story would
>seem to indicate that wasn't feasible 5 years ago.
The new technology is instant personality implant without Doll architecture,
nothing to do with what they did years ago, which one assumes is still what
they are doing today. It still takes time to set up a facility for Topher
to work in, and I don't believe they'd do it for one man. It would be
difficult to keep it entirely secret.
>But then there's nothing said to point that direction anyway. Rossum got
>these guys straight from the military.
That's why I guessed they had set up a lab in a VA hospital.
>They were "assigned" to various dollhouses where they were converted
>into actives.
It's possible, but it seems too dangerous to send guys like this into a
Dollhouse unconverted.
>>Unless VA is contracting stuff out to Rossum too, which I suppose could
>>be possible.
>Maybe. It was done through a division of Rossum that's equated to
>Blackwater. This is more detail than the show reaches down to. But I doubt
>the VA would be involved.
Why not? They were specifically looking for PTSD. VA is filled with such
guys.
>It seems more like an arrangement directly with the military.
Well, once they are turned into group-think mercenaries, sure. Maybe the
military gives Rossum access to service records, but I'm not sure it's
important.
David Johnston
<dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
But they still have to set up the Houses in the first place, and it
makes sense they'd have to send some people with some experience to do
it. Topher's assistant for example, might go to the Abu Dhabi house,
because where else are they going to get their techie than from one of
the houses that already exist?
David Johnston
wrote:
Actually from the very start we saw that the dolls are broadcasting
electronic signals. It's how the handlers monitor their status.
Pete B
O...@nomail.sorry says...
> "Pete B" <xxxh@_xsomeething.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.2597bb62d...@news.usenetserver.com...
> > In article <lbKdnW_Z6_Fb8LDW...@supernews.com>,
> > O...@nomail.sorry says...
> >> No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to
> >> something
> >> else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon
> >> here.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Surely if there is a retcon its that suddenly dolls need to have
> > implanents, that didn't show up until a few episodes ago.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by that.
That they don't just download to an untouched brain. But that they need
to put stuff in first.
> Or perhaps you're referring to the - what did they call it
> now - active architecture? Something like that. The term is new, but I
> think it represents finally getting around to fleshing out a little the
> process they've mostly left vague, rather than any real retcon. Just a
> little fleshing out mind you. Dollhouse works hard to avoid really
> explaining the technical stuff. Which makes sense. It's pretty much all
> made up nonsense that defies explanation.
yeah, much like life.
One Bit Shy
news:hgk7ki$mon$1...@news.albasani.net...
> One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>>>>The dialogue I assume you refer to in "Stop Loss" goes as follows:
>
>>>>Boyd: Usually you handle Active releases. I thought it gave you a
>>>>sense
>>>>of satisfaction, seeing them through.
>>>>DeWitt: When I've recruited them. Victor was assigned to this house.
>>>>He
>>>>wouldn't know me from you.
>
>>>>No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to
>>>>something
>>>>else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon
>>>>here.
>
>>>That's retconning Adele. Since when does she recruit?
>
>>Since the very first scene of the series when she was recruiting Caroline.
>
> Adele certainly did not recruit Caroline. Caroline attacked a Rossum lab.
> Rossum captured her. Adele gave her a choice of jail or becoming a Doll,
> which was probably a false choice; undoubtably Caroline would have been
> killed or sent immediately to the Attic. I suppose now that Adele has been
> retconned as a hero, that entire scene was meant to distract us.
We actually don't know how much if any of that interpretation is true.
There's a two year gap not yet accounted for. We don't know how she
actually ended up in that room having tea with Adelle and being persuaded to
sign the deal. We do know that Adelle presented it as a solution to her
problems. We also know that when Caroline was briefly brought back to life
by Alpha, she believed she had an obligation to live up to the deal. She
was convinced otherwise by Echo not because she had been coerced by Adelle,
but because the resulting imprinted personalities were being effectively
enslaved. I think you're assuming too much about what happened between
Adelle and Caroline, though I expect we'll learn more shortly.
None of which is strictly relevant. Adelle thinks of it as recruiting, and
she's the one who made the remark. The only point being made is that some
dolls come into the house through her and some don't. The ones that do are
the ones that she walks out the door at the end of five years. The
revelation in that scene is that Victor did not come into the house through
the usual means. That's all.
>>Adelle has always taken on responsibility for selling people on signing
>>their 5 year contracts.
>
> She gives them a choice of two kinds of Hell. Adele has found none of
> their
> potential slaves, so there's no recruiting going on.
We really don't know much about how potential actives are found, though we
have been given some examples of types of people deemed suitable. I'm sure
other people are used to bring potential recruits to Adelle's attention.
That's how it was presented with Caroline when Adelle went to her hospital
room to check her out. (A very recruiting like action IMO.) But however
early or late that Adelle steps into the picture, it seems to be suggested
that she generally chooses who she wants and that there is some degree of
free will to signing the contracts, as well as some version of fair return
offered.
When you say there's no recruiting going on, you're using a different and
much narrower definition of the term than Adelle is. This is not the type
of recruiting used to sign kids to a college football program, nor every day
job recruiting, or even military recruiting. This is operating in a much
dirtier world of desperate people vulnerable to exploitation. People keep
pointing to the parallels with human trafficking for a reason.
But to Adelle it's still a process of identifying suitable candidates and
then selling them on the Dollhouse solution, which she likes to call
recruiting.
> From what I can tell, Rossum preys on people at vulnerable moments and
> some of the Dolls, Sierra and probably Victor, were outright kidnapped.
Sure. So what?
> I do not agree with you.
You don't have to. But I do encourage you to please try to hear what the
show is trying to say about itself. It's so helpful for appreciating what
the show is doing. It's not a retcon because Adelle's idea of "recruiting"
is different than yours.
>>>She means intake.
>
>>No, the whole point is that the ones she personally sees out of the house
>>are the ones she established a personal relationship with on the way in -
>>the ones she actively encouraged to sign up.
>
> I knew what she was referring to.
>
>>>If Adele didn't do the intake, that means he was dolled up somewhere
>>>else.
>
>>I'm not sure what "intake" means to you, but I take it to be the
>>administrative and technical process following a doll being signed up.
>
> Recruitment means Rossum has selected a victim. There are probably no
> instances of actual volunteering;
If you mean like volunteering for the army, of course not. Hardly anybody
knows Dollhouses actually exist. That's why they have to reach out to
people - recruit.
> Rossum may have created artificial
> situations in the real world simulating stress. In Victor's case,
> battlefield
> stress was ideal. In the Senator's case, well, they just grabbed him.
Sure. So? We already know that Adelle doesn't consider Victor to be
someone she recruited. The Senator was handled by a different house, but I
doubt Adelle would consider that recruiting either.
>>Now forgetting for the moment that "intake" was not the word used, let
>>me point out that "dolling up" as you put it is a technical process that
>>would be performed by Topher - not Adelle - no matter how the person
>>was brought to the house.
>
> Of course, which is why I really don't understand how Topher installed
> Victor's mental architecture without Adele being involved at all.
I'm sure that Adelle knew Victor was assigned to the house. Beyond that,
what does she need to be involved in? When Caroline was signed up, after
the contract was signed she was just walked through the house and turned
over to Topher. Dr. Saunders probably got involved too, but Adelle doesn't
have to be around for that either.
>>Whether or not Adelle got to know the recruit first, Topher is still
>>going to put he/she into the chair. So there's no implication that it
>>had to happen elsewhere.
>
> We know what Adele is like when she feels she's lost control of the House,
> so that suggests that Victor was dolled up elsewhere. Seems to me that
> denying Adele her tea ceremony is a challenge to her authority.
I'm sorry, but I think you're projecting more onto that than the series has
actually shown. I don't doubt that she'd like that kind of control if it
was available, but it seems evident that she doesn't always get that choice.
Sometimes she has to accept what Rossum sends her. She does work for them
after all.
>>>That doesn't rule out Topher implanting the architecture in his brain out
>>>in the field somewhere, but you'd think it would have taken place in a
>>>controlled secret environment, and not at a VA hospital.
>
>>Only if the equipment were brought into the field with him. The story
>>would
>>seem to indicate that wasn't feasible 5 years ago.
>
> The new technology is instant personality implant without Doll
> architecture,
> nothing to do with what they did years ago, which one assumes is still
> what
> they are doing today. It still takes time to set up a facility for Topher
> to work in, and I don't believe they'd do it for one man. It would be
> difficult to keep it entirely secret.
Isn't that kind of what I just said? Not feasible.
>>But then there's nothing said to point that direction anyway. Rossum got
>>these guys straight from the military.
>
> That's why I guessed they had set up a lab in a VA hospital.
Sure. I see what led you there.
>>They were "assigned" to various dollhouses where they were converted
>>into actives.
>
> It's possible, but it seems too dangerous to send guys like this into a
> Dollhouse unconverted.
Why? They're soldiers being assigned elsehwhere. "Assigned" is how the
soldiers themselves described it. Since one suspects they were in hospitals
already, it probably felt like a medical transfer to them. Maybe they were
drugged up too. I don't see why it would need by particularly dangerous.
There's no indication that it was against their will.
>>>Unless VA is contracting stuff out to Rossum too, which I suppose could
>>>be possible.
>
>>Maybe. It was done through a division of Rossum that's equated to
>>Blackwater. This is more detail than the show reaches down to. But I
>>doubt
>>the VA would be involved.
>
> Why not? They were specifically looking for PTSD. VA is filled with such
> guys.
The VA is essentially a civilian operation with patients no longer under the
same level of control they were while enlisted. I think Rossum would prefer
the more controlled conditions of the still enlisted. You can find PTSD in
military hospitals too.
The military might also be motivated to hide its most serious cases and want
to palm them off directly to a clandestine operation like this before they
work their way into the VA system.
And, again, the soldiers describe it as being assigned - as if they were
still in the military at the time.
>>It seems more like an arrangement directly with the military.
>
> Well, once they are turned into group-think mercenaries, sure. Maybe the
> military gives Rossum access to service records, but I'm not sure it's
> important.
Probably not. As I said before, we're drilling down to a level of detail
not covered by the show.
OBS
David Johnston
<a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>>>>The dialogue I assume you refer to in "Stop Loss" goes as follows:
>
>>>>Boyd: Usually you handle Active releases. I thought it gave you a sense
>>>>of satisfaction, seeing them through.
>>>>DeWitt: When I've recruited them. Victor was assigned to this house. He
>>>>wouldn't know me from you.
>
>>>>No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to something
>>>>else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon
>>>>here.
>
>>>That's retconning Adele. Since when does she recruit?
>
>>Since the very first scene of the series when she was recruiting Caroline.
>
>Adele certainly did not recruit Caroline. Caroline attacked a Rossum lab.
>Rossum captured her. Adele gave her a choice of jail or becoming a Doll,
"Recruit" doesn't necessarily mean "ask nicely".
Ken from Chicago
"David Johnston" <da...@block.net> wrote in message
news:8lvqi5htdrrqoe6qb...@4ax.com...
Google Inc. uses acres of them.
-- Ken from Chicago
Anlatt the Builder
> One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>
> Adele certainly did not recruit Caroline. Caroline attacked a Rossum lab.
> Rossum captured her. Adele gave her a choice of jail or becoming a Doll,
> which was probably a false choice; undoubtably Caroline would have been
> killed or sent immediately to the Attic.
Adelle offered her a choice, which, from Adelle's point of view, is
"recruiting" her. I have no idea if the choice was an actual one, or,
more to the point, if Adelle thought it was. (She may have thought
that Caroline refusing would go to jail; Rossum might have had other
plans.) Neither do you.
> I suppose now that Adele has been
> retconned as a hero, that entire scene was meant to distract us.
>
That's a broad oversimplification of a character who deserves better.
Adelle has not be "retconned into a hero" - she has simply taken sides
against Rossum. She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and
revenge, or a belief that there would be no place for her in Rossum's
future, or just a decision that she prefers the world as it is to
Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe, maybe not.
I'm reminded of when Spike went to Buffy to help against Angelus's
plan to bring "Hell on Earth." He didn't do it because he was a hero
(at that point, he certainly wasn't). He did it because he was
enjoying life as a vampire on earth, and living in Hell on Earth
didn't appeal to him. (I remember his description of how much he
enjoyed the world: "And the people - Happy Meals on legs!")
>
> Recruitment means Rossum has selected a victim. There are probably no
> instances of actual volunteering; Rossum may have created artificial
> situations in the real world simulating stress.
The show has given me no reason to believe that. From what I've seen,
they - in many, not all, cases - actually find people who need the
money, or the escape from an untenable situation, or (like Mellie) use
of Dollhouse technology to remove emotional states they don't think
they can live with.
>
> Of course, which is why I really don't understand how Topher installed
> Victor's mental architecture without Adele being involved at all.
I think that Adelle's statement that Victor was transferred in from
another house, coupled with Topher's "I was standing right... here,"
was simply a mistake - even if, with considerable strain, it can be
explained away. I think they're somewhat rushed writing these final
episodes.
Pete
David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:50:05 -0800, JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>There's a little too much Echo magic, knocking down doors and all, and
>>come on, using the brains for their "mainframe", who uses mainframes
>>anymore?
>
>Governments, large corporations, and academic institutions. Believe
>it or not, there are still uses for big computers.
It's more the word "mainframe" that is sooo 20th century...
Sure was a heavy-duty processor cluster, though!
-- Pete --
--
============================================================================
The address in the header is a Spam Bucket -- don't bother replying to it...
(If you do need to email, replace the account name with my true name.)
============================================================================
Adam H. Kerman
>>One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>Adele certainly did not recruit Caroline. Caroline attacked a Rossum lab.
>>Rossum captured her. Adele gave her a choice of jail or becoming a Doll,
>>which was probably a false choice; undoubtably Caroline would have been
>>killed or sent immediately to the Attic.
>Adelle offered her a choice, which, from Adelle's point of view, is
>"recruiting" her. I have no idea if the choice was an actual one, or,
>more to the point, if Adelle thought it was. (She may have thought
>that Caroline refusing would go to jail; Rossum might have had other
>plans.) Neither do you.
I think by this time we can conclude that once you are in Rossum's sight,
you are not free to live your life. Even a lengthy incarceration might not
be sufficient control for Rossum. Why take a chance?
>>I suppose now that Adele has been retconned as a hero, that entire scene
>>was meant to distract us.
>That's a broad oversimplification of a character who deserves better.
>Adelle has not be "retconned into a hero" - she has simply taken sides
>against Rossum.
AFTER passing Topher's discovery on to them, which undoubtably speeded up
their research quite a bit?
>She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and revenge, or a belief that
>there would be no place for her in Rossum's future, or just a decision
>that she prefers the world as it is to Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe,
>maybe not.
She damn well better have something evil in mind.
Ken from Chicago
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message
news:hgk1f9$amj$5...@news.albasani.net...
Why couldn't Victor have agreed to be an active at a 3rd Dollhouse with
Topher putting him under and they both were transferred to the LA Dollhouse,
or Topher was handling the PTS cases until the local tech was brought up to
speed?
-- KEn from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Pete" <neve...@GOODEVEca.net> wrote in message
news:iIOdnQxG6KIcfLDW...@lmi.net...
> In article <8lvqi5htdrrqoe6qb...@4ax.com>,
> David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
>>On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:50:05 -0800, JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> [....]
>>>There's a little too much Echo magic, knocking down doors and all, and
>>>come on, using the brains for their "mainframe", who uses mainframes
>>>anymore?
>>
>>Governments, large corporations, and academic institutions. Believe
>>it or not, there are still uses for big computers.
>
> It's more the word "mainframe" that is sooo 20th century...
> Sure was a heavy-duty processor cluster, though!
>
> -- Pete --
Um, the guy was locked up in the Attic in 1993. It would have been error for
him to NOT refer to them as "mainframes".
-- Ken from Chicago
Adam H. Kerman
Rossum doesn't seem to work like a normal corporation. They don't appear
to move staff around. This would be particularly true of people like Topher
performing portions of the actual brain research as Rossum was trying to
keep it all highly compartmentalized, to prevent corporate espionage
I'll guess.
The only way I'd buy Topher at another Dollhouse is if Topher is setting it
up and creating initial Dolls. But once the brain research begins, Topher
cannot be there.
Obveeus
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> We actually don't know how much if any of that interpretation is true.
> There's a two year gap not yet accounted for. We don't know how she
> actually ended up in that room having tea with Adelle and being persuaded
> to sign the deal. We do know that Adelle presented it as a solution to
> her problems. We also know that when Caroline was briefly brought back to
> life by Alpha, she believed she had an obligation to live up to the deal.
> She was convinced otherwise by Echo not because she had been coerced by
> Adelle, but because the resulting imprinted personalities were being
> effectively enslaved. I think you're assuming too much about what
> happened between Adelle and Caroline, though I expect we'll learn more
> shortly.
We know that Caroline feels responsible for killing someone (or multiple
someones) and that she didn't want to live with that knowledge. That
someone is very likely Bennett (Summer Glau's character) who Caroline left
to die in the building fire. Caroline may also believe that she killed one
of Rossum's original founders (since he mentioned that Caroline had been the
only other person to have seen the doll that replaced him, he must have
disappeared to the attic shortly after that time). From the preview for the
next episode, the Summer Glau character will be back; so I agree with you
that we will get more of that backstory (likely to include exactly why
Caroline felt compelled to sign on for the Dollhouse) shortly.
Pete B
@g4g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, tir...@aol.com says...
Except she didn't make that statement.
Jim Gysin
Pete B sent the following on 12/19/2009 9:41 PM:
That's not a retcon, as there was no *changing* of previous canon
involved. Just because something doesn't get mentioned at one point
doesn't mean that, when it *does* get mentioned later on, it's a retcon.
Rather, it just means that they didn't mention it any sooner.
--
Jim Gysin
Waukesha, WI
Jim Gysin
Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 3:35 AM:
> Anlatt the Builder <tir...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 19, 8:02 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>> One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>>> Adele certainly did not recruit Caroline. Caroline attacked a Rossum lab.
>>> Rossum captured her. Adele gave her a choice of jail or becoming a Doll,
>>> which was probably a false choice; undoubtably Caroline would have been
>>> killed or sent immediately to the Attic.
>
>> Adelle offered her a choice, which, from Adelle's point of view, is
>> "recruiting" her. I have no idea if the choice was an actual one, or,
>> more to the point, if Adelle thought it was. (She may have thought
>> that Caroline refusing would go to jail; Rossum might have had other
>> plans.) Neither do you.
>
> I think by this time we can conclude that once you are in Rossum's sight,
> you are not free to live your life. Even a lengthy incarceration might not
> be sufficient control for Rossum. Why take a chance?
>
>>> I suppose now that Adele has been retconned as a hero, that entire scene
>>> was meant to distract us.
>
>> That's a broad oversimplification of a character who deserves better.
>> Adelle has not be "retconned into a hero" - she has simply taken sides
>> against Rossum.
>
> AFTER passing Topher's discovery on to them, which undoubtably speeded up
> their research quite a bit?
Didn't that *just* happen time-wise? How much harm could it have
already done, really?
>> She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and revenge, or a belief that
>> there would be no place for her in Rossum's future, or just a decision
>> that she prefers the world as it is to Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe,
>> maybe not.
>
> She damn well better have something evil in mind.
Why? Don't you believe in redemption? She bottomed out when Victor (as
whoever-he-was) put an abrupt end to their tryst and posed the
comment/question that made clear to her how pathetic her life had
become. I wish that they'd given her reaction a bit more screen time,
but it still seemed obvious to me that she broke at that point. And
after a bit of self-pity with some good single malt, she was shocked out
of herself by Boyd, at which point she started her return from her own
little abyss's edge.
Adam H. Kerman
How do you re-interpret speeding up Rossum's research as not harmful?
>>>She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and revenge, or a belief that
>>>there would be no place for her in Rossum's future, or just a decision
>>>that she prefers the world as it is to Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe,
>>>maybe not.
>>She damn well better have something evil in mind.
>Why? Don't you believe in redemption?
Not for her. Certainly not for Topher.
>She bottomed out when Victor (as whoever-he-was) put an abrupt end to
>their tryst and posed the comment/question that made clear to her how
>pathetic her life had become.
That doesn't make me want her to become a hero. I like her. She's evil.
>I wish that they'd given her reaction a bit more screen time, but it
>still seemed obvious to me that she broke at that point. And after a
>bit of self-pity with some good single malt, she was shocked out of
>herself by Boyd, at which point she started her return from her own
>little abyss's edge.
Maybe, or she was playing Boyd. I didn't like that scene.
David Johnston
<a...@chinet.com> wrote:
Normal corporations can hire people right out of university who are
familiar with what they do. How does Rossum get a qualified
technician? And, more importantly, one stained by complicity before
they are qualified so they don't learn what the houses do and squawk?
Pete
>news:iIOdnQxG6KIcfLDW...@lmi.net...
>>
>> Sure was a heavy-duty processor cluster, though!
>>
>him to NOT refer to them as "mainframes".
True, but my impression (I haven't gone back to check) is that Echo
and the others used the word before they met him. Correct me if not.
(And I thought that clusters like Beowulf dated back to then, but I
looked it up and that dates from '94, so maybe not...(:-/)
Dimensional Traveler
device. If that's correct all Rossum needs to do is start production.
--
"Dude. They've gone fractal."
Ken from Chicago
"Jim Gysin" <jimg...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:hgmnep$g09$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
The whole power play move by Adelle was very similar to Angel's move in the
fifth season of ANGEL where he made a bid for power--which his staff was
shocked by and thot he turned all evil--only to have the big reveal that it
was a play for power ... so he could use it for good.
Adelle may have made a play for power merely out of revenge against Rossum
or maybe she truly opposes them on ethical grounds. After all, she did have
a policy of protecting or at least minimizing risk to the actives in her
care.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Dimensional Traveler" <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4b2f21bd$0$1671$742e...@news.sonic.net...
There are blueprints and there are blueprints. The level of detail needed
for production may differ from prototype design, plus what ever unique
Topher shorthand he used in the schmatic.
Then again, it was several eps ago, Rossum, could have had a team of techs
decoding Topher's plan and codifying it for a test-run and / or
full-production run.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
Hackers. Crackers. Cyber-pirates. Underworld. Darknet. The experts in
cracking biometric security from fingerprinting, retinal scans, etc.
Best are those medical school dropouts busted trying to hack a better grade
for themselves--or not busted ... yet.
-- Ken from Chicago
Adam H. Kerman
>Normal corporations can hire people right out of university who are
>familiar with what they do. How does Rossum get a qualified
>technician? And, more importantly, one stained by complicity before
>they are qualified so they don't learn what the houses do and squawk?
Good question. You'd think someone like Topher would have to be taken as a
child to assure that he utterly lacks morals.
Ken from Chicago
"Anlatt the Builder" <tir...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:29591445-78f2-40ff...@u36g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> s
> p
> o
> i
> l
> e
> r
> s
> p
> a
> c
> e
>
> On the one hand, I'm enjoying the show quite a bit. I think it's
> because there are now characters - not just Echo, but Boyd and Topher
> and the rest - who are trying to accomplish something valuable, not
> just make "engagements" work out without any Actives getting killed.
And I think something like that could have been done in the single-episode
stories that would have worked on their own while providing character
development for Echo and tied into the overarcing plot:
Echo is special because she gives customers what they need.
Engagements are about providing clients what they want, and Echo's gift was
that she was the best at that but after multiple engagements Echo's gift
kicks into overdrive as she experiences deja vu, "Hey, wait, I already gave
the customer what they wanted, why are they back?" and starts to suss out
what they REALLY want, that is, what they really NEED.
--Client wants sex but needs love.
--Client wants prey but needs his father's respect.
--Client wants love but needs to stop denying and bargaining but learn to
get angry and grieve and finally accept his wife's death.
--Client wants a thief but needs to be content with life without have to
constantly seek thrills breaking into bank vaults.
--Client wants a bodyguard but needs drop the high-flying pop music scene
and get back to her roots in music, in playing, writing and singing the
songs that moved her and her (albeit her then smaller) fanbase.
1) The one-ep stories could have viewers wonder what does the client need
this week.
2) Meanwhile we see Echo building up a repoitoire of skills needed to be ...
a whole person ... not just a weapon.
3) It builds up the arc of going up against Rossum, because while Echo may
be great at providing what the client needs, she's wrecking Rossum's
business plan. A truly satisfied customer for them is NOT a repeat customer.
Like pop makers who make pop that only partially quenches your thirst, not
as well as water, so you end up buying more. Like car makers who make cars
that break down so you have to buy a new car--quickly. At first taking Echo
off repeat engagements work, but we could have seen her learning to suss out
what people need on first time basis.
The beauty part would be the part of Echo having control over it all Jarod,
The Pretender, could be optional, tho I would still opted for that from the
pilot ep and then work out her backstory in flashbacks. Whedon and crew
could have still told the same stories, same themes, same messages and yet
easier for audiences to get first time out.
> On the other hand, I think that, because the show has been cancelled,
> they're in a tremendous rush to cover a lot of ground quickly, and
> that has led them to write stories that don't really make any sense
> within the context of the show.
Yeah, too bad it wasn't this exciting all along.
> For example, if Rossum wanted Victor for a program of theirs, they
> would have simply requisitioned him. They own the Dollhouse. (As
> Adelle pointed out, Victor was transferred in from a different house.
> He could have been transferred out just as easily.)
>
> Kidnapping Victor immediately after he was released - when protocol
> dictates that he's being monitored and checked by his Dollhouse - was
> wildly conspicuous and would lead to trouble even if it wasn't "Echo's
> House." Maybe just ordering Victor to be turned over to them would
> have led to some other problem, but it still makes far more sense.
Maybe it was a PART of Rossum. They do seem to have a ... wee ... bit of an
in-fighting problem.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message
news:hgneuj$b26$4...@news.albasani.net...
Please, or taken out of college. Some college students have no moral qualms
in surveys, no sense of shame or even shock.
-- Ken from Chicago
David Johnston
None of those people would be familiar with the technology.
Jim Gysin
Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 9:23 PM:
Again, if it just happened a day or so ago in the show's timeline and it
was a part of her plan to bring down Rossum, then it's a reach to say
that much harm can be done in a day or two. Months or years! Sure.
But a day or two? Hardly even a hiccup, especially if she's successful
in destroying them.
>>>> She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and revenge, or a belief that
>>>> there would be no place for her in Rossum's future, or just a decision
>>>> that she prefers the world as it is to Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe,
>>>> maybe not.
>
>>> She damn well better have something evil in mind.
>
>> Why? Don't you believe in redemption?
>
> Not for her. Certainly not for Topher.
I can't think of anyone who's completely beyond redemption, and that
includes a lot of people in the real world who have done far worse than
what Adele or Topher has done. And as for Topher, his redemption arc
began back in the Priya-centric episode earlier this season.
>> She bottomed out when Victor (as whoever-he-was) put an abrupt end to
>> their tryst and posed the comment/question that made clear to her how
>> pathetic her life had become.
>
> That doesn't make me want her to become a hero. I like her. She's evil.
I'd be fine with it either way. Had they kept her evil, I would have
enjoyed her evil ways. And by allowing her to attempt to redeem
herself, I can enjoy watching her efforts on that front.
>> I wish that they'd given her reaction a bit more screen time, but it
>> still seemed obvious to me that she broke at that point. And after a
>> bit of self-pity with some good single malt, she was shocked out of
>> herself by Boyd, at which point she started her return from her own
>> little abyss's edge.
>
> Maybe, or she was playing Boyd. I didn't like that scene.
Could be. I'm still half-expecting to learn that Topher's plans were
altered before presenting them to the Rossum folks.
Jim Gysin
Dimensional Traveler sent the following on 12/21/2009 1:20 AM:
There are plans, and then there are final plans. There are blueprints,
and there are production blueprints. We just don't know. And for that
matter, we also don't know if those plans weren't modified before
presenting them to the Rossum people.
Jim Gysin
Ken from Chicago sent the following on 12/21/2009 2:32 AM:
> fifth season of ANGEL where he made a bid for power--which his staff was
> shocked by and thot he turned all evil--only to have the big reveal that it
> was a play for power ... so he could use it for good.
>
> Adelle may have made a play for power merely out of revenge against Rossum
> or maybe she truly opposes them on ethical grounds. After all, she did have
> a policy of protecting or at least minimizing risk to the actives in her
> care.
Right. And I've seen plenty of signs all season long of how both she
and Topher have been starting to see the errors of their ways. Whatever
happens, I'm sure that the resolution will occur on a faster timetable
than Joss et al would have liked, but given the show's cancellation, I
would rather see a rushed resolution than no resolution.
David Johnston
wrote:
I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that she had a plan to bring
down Rossum prior to crawling into a bottle.
JRStern
<kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Um, the guy was locked up in the Attic in 1993. It would have been error for
>him to NOT refer to them as "mainframes".
marginal usage even then, marginal usage even circa 1985 or whenever
Neuromancer was written. but no real replacement term I can think of.
J.
Pete B
JRS...@foobar.invalid says...
I might use it today - when "cloud" is too pretentious
Adam H. Kerman
. . . or now.
Adam H. Kerman
>Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 9:23 PM:
>>Jim Gysin <jimg...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 3:35 AM:
>>>>Anlatt the Builder <tir...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>On Dec 19, 8:02 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>I suppose now that Adele has been retconned as a hero, that entire scene
>>>>>>was meant to distract us.
>>>>>That's a broad oversimplification of a character who deserves better.
>>>>>Adelle has not be "retconned into a hero" - she has simply taken sides
>>>>>against Rossum.
>>>>AFTER passing Topher's discovery on to them, which undoubtably speeded up
>>>>their research quite a bit?
>>>Didn't that *just* happen time-wise? How much harm could it have
>>>already done, really?
>>How do you re-interpret speeding up Rossum's research as not harmful?
>Again, if it just happened a day or so ago in the show's timeline and it
>was a part of her plan to bring down Rossum, then it's a reach to say
>that much harm can be done in a day or two. Months or years! Sure.
>But a day or two? Hardly even a hiccup, especially if she's successful
>in destroying them.
Adelle gave it to them because she's evil. Even if it was part of a plan,
it's utterly stupid to see how anything good comes out of given them the
very thing capable of destoying civilization.
>>>>>She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and revenge, or a belief that
>>>>>there would be no place for her in Rossum's future, or just a decision
>>>>>that she prefers the world as it is to Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe,
>>>>>maybe not.
>>>>She damn well better have something evil in mind.
>>>Why? Don't you believe in redemption?
>>Not for her. Certainly not for Topher.
>I can't think of anyone who's completely beyond redemption, and that
>includes a lot of people in the real world who have done far worse than
>what Adele or Topher has done.
You know a lot of slave owners, do you?
>And as for Topher, his redemption arc began back in the Priya-centric
>episode earlier this season.
Except he unredeemed his redemption when he assembled all that research
just because he was curious, knowing full well exactly what the consequences
were. Topher is evil.
>Could be. I'm still half-expecting to learn that Topher's plans were
>altered before presenting them to the Rossum folks.
Yes, we've been deliberately misled before, so it would be no surprise.
Adam H. Kerman
The only way they could be modified would be if Topher did it, which would
betray what we saw on screen. Anyway, even if Topher did it, it wouldn't
be much of a setback.
One Bit Shy
news:hgpc7s$evl$9...@news.albasani.net...
> Jim Gysin <jimg...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Dimensional Traveler sent the following on 12/21/2009 1:20 AM:
>>> From what we saw, it looked like Topher had created blueprints for the
>>> device. If that's correct all Rossum needs to do is start production.
>>
>>There are plans, and then there are final plans. There are blueprints,
>>and there are production blueprints. We just don't know. And for that
>>matter, we also don't know if those plans weren't modified before
>>presenting them to the Rossum people.
>
> The only way they could be modified would be if Topher did it, which would
> betray what we saw on screen. Anyway, even if Topher did it, it wouldn't
> be much of a setback.
I'm not expecting the plans to have been modified, but if they were, it
wouldn't necessarily have to be Topher that changed them.
Here's a piece of dialogue from Meet Jane Doe that may have slipped under
people's radar:
Harding: You think we're keeping secrets from you, Adelle. Haven't we
eliminated those from this house?
DeWitt: Of course. I was just curious. I had quite a scientific mind
before I was transferred here if you remember [not sure what the word is
here].
Harding: I do.
Evidently Adelle's long impatience with Topher's techno-babble has been
covering up actual knowledge. It seems that Adelle comes from the science
side of the operation and might very well be capable of modifying plans like
those.
OBS
Adam H. Kerman
>Here's a piece of dialogue from Meet Jane Doe that may have slipped under
>people's radar:
>Harding: You think we're keeping secrets from you, Adelle. Haven't we
>eliminated those from this house?
>DeWitt: Of course. I was just curious. I had quite a scientific mind
>before I was transferred here if you remember [not sure what the word is
>here].
>Harding: I do.
Thank you for remembering that. I thought she merely served tea.
Anlatt the Builder
> >I can't think of anyone who's completely beyond redemption, and that
> >includes a lot of people in the real world who have done far worse than
> >what Adele or Topher has done.
>
> You know a lot of slave owners, do you?
>
>
This is an interesting comment, and I think it goes to how you are
trying to force the show into a Procrustean bed.
Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner. He was also, by my standards, a
rapist - Sally Hemings was his slave, after all; the power imbalance
was nigh-on infinite, and she was in no position to say no to him.
And maybe that's the end of that story. Thomas Jefferson: slave owner
and rapist. Beyond redemption. The end.
But Jefferson and Hemings lived in a very different context than we
do. Their culture told them that slavery was acceptable - in fact,
necessary to someone in Jefferson's position. And he may not have
thought that what he was doing was rape. Sally Hemings may not have
thought so, either.
I don't think that makes it okay. I still think Jefferson did evil
things. But do I think the man should be considered beyond all
redemption? Or does context count?
The people in Dollhouse live in a different context than we do. They
live in a hypothetical world in which a persona - personality and
memories - can be recorded. New, novel personae can be created. A
persona can be downloaded into a living human being. Later his or her
original persona can be downlaoded into them. Or someone else.
In this counterfactual world, concepts we think of as nailed down in
the real world - concepts like identity, consent, slave, rape -
necessarily take on somewhat different meanings, because the
circumstances are so altered. If, for example, someone specifically
agrees to take on a new persona, knowing that that persona will
willingly have sex with another person, is that rape? Or, for that
matter - to use your conclusion about what happens when a persona is
downlaoded into a person - is that murder?
We can't turn to our legal system, or even our dictionaries, for
definitive answers to these questions, because they weren't designed
with these circumstances in mind. One of the purposes of the show is
to examine these issues - not by holding up hypothetical new
defintions, but by showing us the counterfactual circumstances in
action, and letting us come to our own conclusions.
We can say: it's sort of like agreeing to be roofied. Or, it's sort of
like indentured servitude. Or, it's sort of like death. But the
comparison is not exact in any of those cases. The show is describing
something new.
Personally, I think the Dollhouse is abetting rape, which to me is
evil. But I can imagine that people living in the world of the
Dollhouse might sincerely have different opinions on that. Different
characters might have different opinions from each other. The same
character might struggle with his or her opinion, and change it over
time. This is part of the drama.
It's easy - and, I think, superficial - to say: Adelle is abetting
rape. Therefore she is evil and beyond redemption. Therefore the show
is simply incorrect if it shows her doing something good, or being
heroic in some circumstance. "She better be planning something evil,"
you say - or else it's some kind of cheat.
But does that make any sense from the point of view of the characer?
She may not think she's abetting rape (even though I'm pretty sure she
is). She may think that she's doing the best she can to help as many
people as she can, within a corrupt world. She may think the relative
evil of the Dollhouse is acceptable (she's used to it), but the evil
that Rossum is planning isn't.
Just as Thomas Jefferson might have thought that slavery was
acceptable, but genocide wasn't.
Ask youself this: is a writer permitted to write a story in which
Thomas Jefferson does something heroic? Or is in fact The Hero? Would
you throw such a story against the wall because, after all, Jefferson
was a slave owner and a rapist, and having him be heroic is therefore
a cheat?
Mind you, I'm not making excuses for what Adelle and Topher have done.
Or even for what Jefferson did. I'm just trying to understand the
characters from within the context in which they live, not in the
context in which I live.
There are limits to this kind of reasoning, much of which has to do
with how close to real life the story is. Which is to say: anybody who
uses the Holocaust as the next example ends the discussion. But I've
read fiction in which some of the protagonists where pretty close to
genocidal, and yet still did some admirable things. And, as fiction,
some of these stories worked.
Adam H. Kerman
>>>I can't think of anyone who's completely beyond redemption, and that
>>>includes a lot of people in the real world who have done far worse than
>>>what Adele or Topher has done.
>>You know a lot of slave owners, do you?
>This is an interesting comment, and I think it goes to how you are
>trying to force the show into a Procrustean bed.
What an absurd thing to say. How could you fail to notice the show's
central theme? It was never prostitution, as a lot of tv critics stated.
>The people in Dollhouse live in a different context than we do. They
>live in a hypothetical world in which a persona - personality and
>memories - can be recorded. New, novel personae can be created. A
>persona can be downloaded into a living human being. Later his or her
>original persona can be downlaoded into them. Or someone else.
It's been my contention all along that the best they can do is install
a copy. Once the original is wiped from the brain, it's gone. It's why
it was my contention that the original being is dead.
>In this counterfactual world, concepts we think of as nailed down in
>the real world - concepts like identity, consent, slave, rape -
>necessarily take on somewhat different meanings, because the
>circumstances are so altered. If, for example, someone specifically
>agrees to take on a new persona, knowing that that persona will
>willingly have sex with another person, is that rape? Or, for that
>matter - to use your conclusion about what happens when a persona is
>downlaoded into a person - is that murder?
Do you think the show's central theme is an exploration of human freedom,
or what? The fact that they created technologies is just the hook to
get us into a modern day story about slavery and freedom.
>We can't turn to our legal system, or even our dictionaries, for
>definitive answers to these questions, because they weren't designed
>with these circumstances in mind. One of the purposes of the show is
>to examine these issues - not by holding up hypothetical new
>defintions, but by showing us the counterfactual circumstances in
>action, and letting us come to our own conclusions.
I'm quite satisfied with the well known definitions of all those terms.
As the show is written as entertainment for today's audience, then I'll
assume that we're supposed to view it in our terms.
Anyway, all the research and experimentation was performed in secret upon
individuals lacking their fully-informed consent, so one suspects that
Rossum isn't meant to be operating in a universe with different concept.
They aren't pushing the envelope. They've discarded it.
>We can say: it's sort of like agreeing to be roofied.
I don't think so. Individuals who are regular drug users are aware of how
they work.
>Or, it's sort of like indentured servitude.
Only for a few of them, like Echo, definitely not for Victor nor Sierra.
>Or, it's sort of like death. But the comparison is not exact in any of
>those cases. The show is describing something new.
Gosh, I don't agree with you. Science fiction is practically always
contemporary social commentary.
>Personally, I think the Dollhouse is abetting rape, which to me is
>evil.
I think rape is the least of it. I think slavery is worse, even if I'm
wrong about removing the original personality being murder.
>But I can imagine that people living in the world of the Dollhouse might
>sincerely have different opinions on that. Different characters might have
>different opinions from each other. The same character might struggle with
>his or her opinion, and change it over time. This is part of the drama.
But we only see characters who are Dolls or work for the Dollhouse or buy
the Dollhouse's services! We're not getting any unbiased discussion. These
are people with an utterly warped sense of morality. I do understand that
even within their warped personalities, they may understand "awful"
versus "less awful", without understanding good versus evil.
>It's easy - and, I think, superficial - to say: Adelle is abetting
>rape. Therefore she is evil and beyond redemption. Therefore the show
>is simply incorrect if it shows her doing something good, or being
>heroic in some circumstance. "She better be planning something evil,"
>you say - or else it's some kind of cheat.
Well, yeah. I find the character entertaining.
>But does that make any sense from the point of view of the characer?
>She may not think she's abetting rape (even though I'm pretty sure she
>is). She may think that she's doing the best she can to help as many
>people as she can, within a corrupt world. She may think the relative
>evil of the Dollhouse is acceptable (she's used to it), but the evil
>that Rossum is planning isn't.
I think it's the latter.
>Just as Thomas Jefferson might have thought that slavery was
>acceptable, but genocide wasn't.
I think Thomas Jefferson found slavery unacceptable but didn't free his
slaves until his death. For the author of the great concepts of American
freedom, he didn't practice what he preached. He's a contradiction. So
are all important historical figures. Any histories written of the 1990's,
I do expect that the attitudes of the time will be treated with derision.
>Ask youself this: is a writer permitted to write a story in which
>Thomas Jefferson does something heroic? Or is in fact The Hero?
As long as I never have to see that musical "1776" ever again.
>Would you throw such a story against the wall because, after all,
>Jefferson was a slave owner and a rapist, and having him be heroic is
>therefore a cheat?
Well, if it didn't fit into the known history of Jefferson, it might
still be entertaining.
>Mind you, I'm not making excuses for what Adelle and Topher have done.
I don't even want Adelle to get what's coming to her. I just don't expect
to be as entertained if she does something heroic.
>There are limits to this kind of reasoning, much of which has to do
>with how close to real life the story is. Which is to say: anybody who
>uses the Holocaust as the next example ends the discussion.
Hey! I wasn't going to Godwin the subthread.
>But I've read fiction in which some of the protagonists where pretty close
>to genocidal, and yet still did some admirable things. And, as fiction,
>some of these stories worked.
Hm.
One Bit Shy
It wasn't in the tea scene. This was later, when Harding walked in on
Adelle pumping Topher for information. It continued with Harding pointedly
inviting Topher to an important meeting while cutting out Adelle.
OBS
Ken from Chicago
They'd be the closest candidates. The whole point of proprietary tech is
that noone from outside the organization should be totally familiar with the
specific technology but would be familiar with the concepts--unless said
organization is will and able to train people from scratch.
-- Ken from Chicago
David Johnston
<kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
Which is exactly what they have to do. It's why Topher has a totally
unnecessary assistant. She's not there to help him. She's there to
learn, so eventually she can have his job there, or in Abu Dhabi.
Ken from Chicago
Oh, so you're AGREEING that Topher could have started out at different
Dollhouse before being transferred to the LA one, because he could have been
training.
Doh!
It really works if the LA Dollhouse was new which is what it seemed like in
some of the flashbacks with old Doc Saunders, of Mathnet.
-- Ken from Chicago (who notes it was Adam who was disputing Rossum
transferring people from one 'house to another)
Ken from Chicago
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message
news:hgpc7s$evl$9...@news.albasani.net...
Which is nonsense considering we already saw Bennett modifer Topher's
disrupter, showing someone else could have modified Topher's plans. Plus
Topher already mentioned others might have already been working on a piece
of it isolated from each other. Why would Rossum NOT have MULTIPLE teams
working on the same part (isolated from each other of course) as simple
redundancy?
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
news:fpWdnUazDOCs26zW...@supernews.com...
Plus we never got confirmation but it was hinted she was the one who had a
modified chip put in The Chair to secretly modify November / Malinda /
Mellie without Topher's knowledge. Who knows, maybe Adelle did the
modification herself.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message
news:hgpbpm$evl$7...@news.albasani.net...
She seemed pretty ticked off Rossum demoted her to serving tea. I imagine
some Brits had that whole tea stereotype some Americans have of them. At
lease have Adelle serve coffee, but nooooooo ....
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
It was hinted in season one she was the one behind the modification of
Mellie / November / Malinda and secretly helping Ballard, redirecting his
investigation of the Dollhouse(s).
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message
news:hgpc4v$evl$8...@news.albasani.net...
She regained her 'house and with it power and with that the means to
(attempt to) undo what she has done.
>>>>>>She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and revenge, or a belief
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>there would be no place for her in Rossum's future, or just a decision
>>>>>>that she prefers the world as it is to Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe,
>>>>>>maybe not.
>
>>>>>She damn well better have something evil in mind.
>
>>>>Why? Don't you believe in redemption?
>
>>>Not for her. Certainly not for Topher.
>
>>I can't think of anyone who's completely beyond redemption, and that
>>includes a lot of people in the real world who have done far worse than
>>what Adele or Topher has done.
>
> You know a lot of slave owners, do you?
Many slave owners freed their slaves, some of their own volition.
>>And as for Topher, his redemption arc began back in the Priya-centric
>>episode earlier this season.
>
> Except he unredeemed his redemption when he assembled all that research
> just because he was curious, knowing full well exactly what the
> consequences
> were. Topher is evil.
But he held back on his research seeking a way to block it. If he didn't do
the research, others would have. At least he has several months to eliminate
unsuccessful defenses against the remote imprint and can focus on possible
defenses.
>>Could be. I'm still half-expecting to learn that Topher's plans were
>>altered before presenting them to the Rossum folks.
>
> Yes, we've been deliberately misled before, so it would be no surprise.
It would be slick to find out Adelle has had Whiskey / Saunders hidden away
secretly working on altering Topher's plans--and Rossum's (like they could
keep Adelle from finding out about their secret project with Topher and
others).
-- Ken from Chicago
Adam H. Kerman
Topher's blueprints weren't for a part, but for a prototype of the whole
device. I don't buy the theory someone else offered that Adelle knows
enough about brains and engineering to have modified Topher's blueprints
so that they weren't immediately recognizable as having been modified,
so that the modifications would have been good enough to delay Rossum
from creating the final device.
Based on what I saw in that episode, I am still of the opinion that Adelle
passed on Topher's work to Rossum as stated plainly, and hadn't sabotaged
it before doing so. So that week, no, Adelle was acting neither heroically
nor against Rossum when she handed over Topher's work.
Adam H. Kerman
>It was hinted in season one [Adelle] was the one behind the modification of
>Mellie / November / Malinda and secretly helping Ballard, redirecting his
>investigation of the Dollhouse(s).
Huh? It was revealed to be Alpha!
Adam H. Kerman
>>Jim Gysin <jimg...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 9:23 PM:
>>>>Jim Gysin <jimg...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 3:35 AM:
>>Adelle gave [Topher's work] to [Rossum] because she's evil. Even if it
>>was part of a plan, it's utterly stupid to see how anything good comes
>>out of given them the very thing capable of destoying civilization.
>She regained her 'house and with it power and with that the means to
>(attempt to) undo what she has done.
Yes. It was a tradeoff to further her short-term goals, ignoring long-term
implications. That's evil.
>>>>>>[Adelle] damn well better have something evil in mind.
>>>>>Why? Don't you believe in redemption?
>>>>Not for her. Certainly not for Topher.
>>>I can't think of anyone who's completely beyond redemption, and that
>>>includes a lot of people in the real world who have done far worse than
>>>what Adele or Topher has done.
>>You know a lot of slave owners, do you?
>Many slave owners freed their slaves, some of their own volition.
Jim's comment was about redemption. Several of you have this odd notion that
refraining from doing further evil is redemptive, which is nonsense.
Redemption requires making up for evil. A slave owner freeing his slaves
isn't redemptive. It's merely mitigative. At the very least, he would have
to PAY THEM for all of their labor that he stole. Even if he did that, he
still cannot make up for the years of freedom that they lost.
>>>And as for Topher, his redemption arc began back in the Priya-centric
>>>episode earlier this season.
>>Except he unredeemed his redemption when he assembled all that
>>research just because he was curious, knowing full well exactly what
>>the consequences were. Topher is evil.
>But he held back on his research seeking a way to block it. If he didn't do
>the research, others would have. At least he has several months to eliminate
>unsuccessful defenses against the remote imprint and can focus on possible
>defenses.
Ken, you contradicted yourself several times in that paragraph. Completing
the work, taking it to the point of drafting plans for the final device, is
in no way redemptive. He didn't hold back the work, he completed it. Even
if he hadn't pointed out the drawings to Adelle, somebody else could have
found them easily. After telling Adelle, she turned them over to Rossum,
something that Topher should have expected as Adelle had never given
Topher the impression that she wouldn't.
Again, that someone else would have finished the work THAT HE FINISHED is
no kind of argument that Topher redeemed himself. What someone else is
likely to do is irrelevant to what Topher actually did.
My point stands. He completed the work as a minor challenge to himself,
because of his insatiable curiousity. Once he realized it would work,
he failed to destroy everything he just did. There's nothing redemptive
in completing the work. Topher is evil.
Jim Gysin
Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/21/2009 8:50 PM:
> Jim Gysin <jimg...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 9:23 PM:
>>> Jim Gysin <jimg...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>> Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 3:35 AM:
>>>>> Anlatt the Builder <tir...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Dec 19, 8:02 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>> I suppose now that Adele has been retconned as a hero, that entire scene
>>>>>>> was meant to distract us.
>
>>>>>> That's a broad oversimplification of a character who deserves better.
>>>>>> Adelle has not be "retconned into a hero" - she has simply taken sides
>>>>>> against Rossum.
>
>>>>> AFTER passing Topher's discovery on to them, which undoubtably speeded up
>>>>> their research quite a bit?
>
>>>> Didn't that *just* happen time-wise? How much harm could it have
>>>> already done, really?
>
>>> How do you re-interpret speeding up Rossum's research as not harmful?
>
>> Again, if it just happened a day or so ago in the show's timeline and it
>> was a part of her plan to bring down Rossum, then it's a reach to say
>> that much harm can be done in a day or two. Months or years! Sure.
>> But a day or two? Hardly even a hiccup, especially if she's successful
>> in destroying them.
>
> Adelle gave it to them because she's evil. Even if it was part of a plan,
> it's utterly stupid to see how anything good comes out of given them the
> very thing capable of destoying civilization.
*If* that's what she did...
>>>>>> She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and revenge, or a belief that
>>>>>> there would be no place for her in Rossum's future, or just a decision
>>>>>> that she prefers the world as it is to Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe,
>>>>>> maybe not.
>
>>>>> She damn well better have something evil in mind.
>
>>>> Why? Don't you believe in redemption?
>
>>> Not for her. Certainly not for Topher.
>
>> I can't think of anyone who's completely beyond redemption, and that
>> includes a lot of people in the real world who have done far worse than
>> what Adele or Topher has done.
>
> You know a lot of slave owners, do you?
I don't accept your analogy this time around, just as I never accepted
it when someone floated it in the past.
>> And as for Topher, his redemption arc began back in the Priya-centric
>> episode earlier this season.
>
> Except he unredeemed his redemption when he assembled all that research
> just because he was curious, knowing full well exactly what the consequences
> were. Topher is evil.
He's naive. He gets so caught up in what can and can't be done that he
doesn't give a lot of consideration to whether it *should* be done in
the first place. To you, this apparently makes him evil. Obviously, I
disagree.
>> Could be. I'm still half-expecting to learn that Topher's plans were
>> altered before presenting them to the Rossum folks.
>
> Yes, we've been deliberately misled before, so it would be no surprise.
I enjoy being misled. Or, rather, I enjoy being tempted to mislead
myself on the basis of limited information.
Jim Gysin
Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/21/2009 8:51 PM:
Why? Just because Topher came up with the original idea doesn't mean
that someone else couldn't come up with a variation or two once shown
Topher's original breakthrough. Heck, that's how most scientific
developments happen: one person comes up with a new idea, and then
others build on it.
Adam H. Kerman
I'm not relying on a retcon to relieve Adelle of her ability to think
two or three moves ahead.
>>>>>>>She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and revenge, or a belief that
>>>>>>>there would be no place for her in Rossum's future, or just a decision
>>>>>>>that she prefers the world as it is to Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe,
>>>>>>>maybe not.
>>>>>>She damn well better have something evil in mind.
>>>>>Why? Don't you believe in redemption?
>>>>Not for her. Certainly not for Topher.
>>>I can't think of anyone who's completely beyond redemption, and that
>>>includes a lot of people in the real world who have done far worse than
>>>what Adele or Topher has done.
>>You know a lot of slave owners, do you?
>I don't accept your analogy this time around, just as I never accepted
>it when someone floated it in the past.
So you reject the notion that the central theme of "Dollhouse" is the
exploration of slavery versus free will. What do you think it is?
As I explained elsewhere in the thread, I reject your notion that redemption
means that someone acts less evil in the future. Redemption has to include
making up for the evil you committed, making whole the lives destroyed.
Adelle and Topher, if both had changes of heart, can mitigate the harm they've
done in the past by acting less evil in the future, or possibly by fighting
evil, but cannot undo any of the shit they did. Hell, it was revealed that
undolling someone once dolled up isn't possible, and we haven't seen anyone
with a copy of the original personality perfectly restored, have we.
Mitigation is possible. Redemption is impossible.
>>>And as for Topher, his redemption arc began back in the Priya-centric
>>>episode earlier this season.
>>Except he unredeemed his redemption when he assembled all that research
>>just because he was curious, knowing full well exactly what the consequences
>>were. Topher is evil.
>He's naive. He gets so caught up in what can and can't be done that he
>doesn't give a lot of consideration to whether it *should* be done in
>the first place. To you, this apparently makes him evil. Obviously, I
>disagree.
At this point, he knows full well the consequences. We're long past the
point of excusing anything he does on naivity.
>>>Could be. I'm still half-expecting to learn that Topher's plans were
>>>altered before presenting them to the Rossum folks.
>>Yes, we've been deliberately misled before, so it would be no surprise.
>I enjoy being misled. Or, rather, I enjoy being tempted to mislead
>myself on the basis of limited information.
I don't believe Adelle has the engineering expertise to successfully
sabotage Topher's plans. Others do.
Adam H. Kerman
Obviously that's what Topher did.
One Bit Shy
news:hh4jsu$esh$2...@news.albasani.net...
I was never happy with the resolution of (or lack there of) the secret chip
in the chair and secret messages to Ballard story, but where do you see it
as revealed to be Alpha? (Or, Ken, where was it hinted that it was Adelle?)
As far as I saw, it was left hanging and mostly pointed at Dominic (to the
limited extent it was pointed anywhere).
OBS
Anlatt the Builder
>
> So you reject the notion that the central theme of "Dollhouse" is the
> exploration of slavery versus free will. What do you think it is?
>
The willingness of people in a position of power to exploit others?
The willingness of people dealing with crisis to abdicate
responsibility for their own lives?
Slavery that you volunteer for, and that you're not aware of when your
going through it, adds something new to the equation.
> As I explained elsewhere in the thread, I reject your notion that redemption
> means that someone acts less evil in the future. Redemption has to include
> making up for the evil you committed, making whole the lives destroyed.
>
> Adelle and Topher, if both had changes of heart, can mitigate the harm they've
> done in the past by acting less evil in the future, or possibly by fighting
> evil, but cannot undo any of the shit they did. Hell, it was revealed that
> undolling someone once dolled up isn't possible, and we haven't seen anyone
> with a copy of the original personality perfectly restored, have we.
>
> Mitigation is possible. Redemption is impossible.
>
You are using a non-standard, idiosyncratic definition of redemption
here. Consider, just for one example (but the most common one in our
society), the Christian concept of redemption. It does not include
undoing all the harm you have done. And, in fact, that's not part of
the usual definition.
You win, but only because you're talking to yourself in your own
language.
Anlatt the Builder
> Ken from Chicago <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> >>>Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 9:23 PM:
> >>>>>Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 3:35 AM:
> >>Adelle gave [Topher's work] to [Rossum] because she's evil. Even if it
> >>was part of a plan, it's utterly stupid to see how anything good comes
> >>out of given them the very thing capable of destoying civilization.
> >She regained her 'house and with it power and with that the means to
> >(attempt to) undo what she has done.
>
> Yes. It was a tradeoff to further her short-term goals, ignoring long-term
> implications. That's evil.
>
>
And THAT is a non-standard, idiosyncratic definition of "evil."
Anlatt the Builder
wrote:
> "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in messagenews:hgpc4v$evl$8...@news.albasani.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Jim Gysin <jimgy...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >>Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 9:23 PM:
> >>>>Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 3:35 AM:
That's a little overly generous. Topher did the work because he could;
his curiosity and drive to create things are his main personality
traits. He showed it to Adelle because he didn't know what to do next,
and also to show off. I don't agree that these people are beyond
redemption, but THIS was not a redemptive act.
If he did it in order to better create defenses, he should have been
shown working on said defenses, or at least mentioning them. Maybe
he'll consider it later.
Horace LaBadie
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
We know that Alpha sent the photograph and DVD of Caroline to Ballard.
That's about all that we know.
Dominic admitted to be with NSA, and Echo's investigation showed that he
made a telephone call to NSA from DeWitt's office after the lockdown of
the Dollhouse, so that seems to be a true confession. But he never said
that he arranged for the messages to be implanted in the imprints of
Echo and November. As far as Echo and November could say, they were the
messengers for someone in the Dollhouse who was not the same person that
had sent Ballard the photo and DVD.
The only connection to DeWitt that I can think of was that the telephone
call to NSA was placed from DeWitt's office, but we know that DeWitt was
having a Miss Lonelyhearts engagement with Roger/Victor at that time,
and was incommunicado at the beach house. And Dominic more or less
admitted to placing the call.
So, Dominic could have been the message sender mole, or there might have
been another. Ivy would make sense, if he were willing to blow her cover
to protect his own. But Echo got in the way of that.
Adam H. Kerman
>>>It was hinted in season one [Adelle] was the one behind the modification
>>>of Mellie / November / Malinda and secretly helping Ballard, redirecting
>>>his investigation of the Dollhouse(s).
>>Huh? It was revealed to be Alpha!
>I was never happy with the resolution of (or lack there of) the secret chip
>in the chair and secret messages to Ballard story, but where do you see it
>as revealed to be Alpha? (Or, Ken, where was it hinted that it was Adelle?)
>As far as I saw, it was left hanging and mostly pointed at Dominic (to the
>limited extent it was pointed anywhere).
I guess "revealed" is too strong a word to use on this show.
Lemme put it this way: Alpha's plot to invade the Dollhouse relied entirely
on Ballard believing certain falsehoods. If it wasn't Alpha, then it
becomes entirely too much coincidence to swallow that Alpha was able to
take advantage of somebody else's plot that he couldn't have possibly known
about in order to invade.
... not that the writers make too much effort with regard to any of
the plots.
Adam H. Kerman
Your position isn't the least bit convincing, and quite frankly, you're
letting Adelle shirk her DIRECT responsibility for the entirely forseeable
consequences of her actions.
Seriously: What do you think evil is that doesn't involve that specific
action of Adelle's?
Do you think, generally, based on what we've seen Adelle do prior to that
moment, that she was evil?
Adam H. Kerman
>>>Jim Gysin <jimgy...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>And as for Topher, his redemption arc began back in the Priya-centric
>>>>episode earlier this season.
>>>Except he unredeemed his redemption when he assembled all that
>>>research just because he was curious, knowing full well exactly what
>>>the consequences were. Topher is evil.
>>But he held back on his research seeking a way to block it. If he didn't do
>>the research, others would have. At least he has several months to eliminate
>>unsuccessful defenses against the remote imprint and can focus on possible
>>defenses.
>That's a little overly generous. Topher did the work because he could;
>his curiosity and drive to create things are his main personality
>traits. He showed it to Adelle because he didn't know what to do next,
>and also to show off. I don't agree that these people are beyond
>redemption, but THIS was not a redemptive act.
>If he did it in order to better create defenses, he should have been
>shown working on said defenses, or at least mentioning them. Maybe
>he'll consider it later.
I completely agree with what you wrote.
One Bit Shy
news:hwlabadiejr-B41B...@news.isp.giganews.com...
The added reasons for thinking that it was Dominic are his claim that he's
responsible for keeping Ballard away from the Dollhouse (the secret
messages sought to direct Ballard elsewhere), how he panicked and tried to
frame Ivy when the hidden chip was found, and how that entire story was
dropped once Dominic was sent to the attic. The messages also speak of a
single mole inside the Dollhouse, and he's the only mole uncovered so far.
Everybody (including the writers) act as if its settled.
There are a ton of threads left hanging with that theory, and things that
don't feel right about it to me. (I always preferred Saunders as the source
of the messages.) But what can I do? With that story untouched since then
and getting mighty cold, the most substantive things that I can see point at
Dominic.
OBS
Horace LaBadie
Ivy seems to have been a planned choice of fall-gal, rather than a panic
choice. The call to NSA would be to alert them that Sierra was on the
way, and to make certain that she got the planted record and got away
(with just enough difficulty to make it look real.) The fact that Ivy is
in the last scene of The Attic seems to suggest that she is more
important than a mere Storm Trooper.
> There are a ton of threads left hanging with that theory, and things that
> don't feel right about it to me. (I always preferred Saunders as the source
> of the messages.) But what can I do? With that story untouched since then
> and getting mighty cold, the most substantive things that I can see point at
> Dominic.
>
> OBS
Saunders is another possibility, although she seems to have only gained
enough motive later, when she becomes fully self-aware.
Adam H. Kerman
>>So you reject the notion that the central theme of "Dollhouse" is the
>>exploration of slavery versus free will. What do you think it is?
>The willingness of people in a position of power to exploit others?
>The willingness of people dealing with crisis to abdicate
>responsibility for their own lives?
>Slavery that you volunteer for, and that you're not aware of when your
>going through it, adds something new to the equation.
"Indentured service" is "slavery that you volunteer for" with a definite term,
hardly new. A few of the dolls appeared to be indentured servants.
>>As I explained elsewhere in the thread, I reject your notion that redemption
>>means that someone acts less evil in the future. Redemption has to include
>>making up for the evil you committed, making whole the lives destroyed.
>>Adelle and Topher, if both had changes of heart, can mitigate the harm
>>they've done in the past by acting less evil in the future, or possibly
>>by fighting evil, but cannot undo any of the shit they did. Hell, it
>>was revealed that undolling someone once dolled up isn't possible,
>>and we haven't seen anyone with a copy of the original personality
>>perfectly restored, have we.
>>Mitigation is possible. Redemption is impossible.
>You are using a non-standard, idiosyncratic definition of redemption
>here. Consider, just for one example (but the most common one in our
>society), the Christian concept of redemption. It does not include
>undoing all the harm you have done. And, in fact, that's not part of
>the usual definition.
As I am not a Christian, I reject "redemption" defined in Christian
religious terms. Hell, I disagree with it. "We Christians are free to
cause harm, because we can be redeemed, without undoing the harm
we caused!"
>You win, but only because you're talking to yourself in your own
>language.
Gosh, that's insulting, but then, imposing false religious beliefs
on others always is. Perhaps you personally should limit yourself to
interacting with other Christians who agree with those concepts in the
same religious terms. The rest of us will appreciate the favor of not
having your false religious beliefs inflicted on us.
One Bit Shy
news:hhfup3$njo$4...@news.albasani.net...
I can see the attraction of that theory, but all Alpha really needs from
Ballard is for him to want to break into the Dollhouse and rescue Echo
specifically - which he achieves by directing his attention to Caroline with
the photo and tape that Alpha sends Ballard early Season One. It's fun to
imagine Alpha controlling everything, but do those messages really make
sense as something from Alpha? They tell Ballard to look somewhere other
than the Dollhouse. And how would Alpha be using that chip in the chair
and/or planting secret messages in actives? If he really had that much
freedom of action within the Dollhouse, then he wouldn't need Ballard as
distraction and retriever of Echo, and he wouldn't need to spend time
breaking the security system when he entered with Ballard.
I don't think that theory really hangs together.
> ... not that the writers make too much effort with regard to any of
> the plots.
I think you're mistaken about that, but I do think that adverse
circumstances have made it difficult to maintain story coherence at times -
notably the unsettled series direction early in Season One, the loss of Amy
Acker for most of Season Two, and the need to compress the broad story to
fit into two short seasons. I have no idea how or if those things impact
the secret message story line, but I do think the writers put in
considerable effort to make their stories tie together. When this season
finally wraps up I suspect you will be surprised how much will have been
founded on seeds planted from the start of Season One.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:hhfv9h$njo$5...@news.albasani.net...
How about seeing what actually happens? Her actions haven't brought upon
the end of western civilization yet. It would appear that she's chosen to
attempt to prevent that. Maybe she'll succeed. How would that be for
redemption - even by your definition?
OBS
Adam H. Kerman
>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>>Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>It was hinted in season one [Adelle] was the one behind the modification
>>>>>of Mellie / November / Malinda and secretly helping Ballard, redirecting
>>>>>his investigation of the Dollhouse(s).
>>>>Huh? It was revealed to be Alpha!
>>>I was never happy with the resolution of (or lack there of) the secret
>>>chip in the chair and secret messages to Ballard story, but where do
>>>you see it as revealed to be Alpha? (Or, Ken, where was it hinted
>>>that it was Adelle?) As far as I saw, it was left hanging and mostly
>>>pointed at Dominic (to the limited extent it was pointed anywhere).
>>I guess "revealed" is too strong a word to use on this show.
>>Lemme put it this way: Alpha's plot to invade the Dollhouse relied
>>entirely on Ballard believing certain falsehoods. If it wasn't Alpha,
>>then it becomes entirely too much coincidence to swallow that Alpha
>>was able to take advantage of somebody else's plot that he couldn't
>>have possibly known about in order to invade.
>I can see the attraction of that theory, but all Alpha really needs from
>Ballard is for him to want to break into the Dollhouse and rescue Echo
>specifically - which he achieves by directing his attention to Caroline with
>the photo and tape that Alpha sends Ballard early Season One.
Alpha was able to take advantage of Ballard, because he was in the right
frame of mind. Otherwise, Alpha would have had to have been preparing him
for longer.
>It's fun to imagine Alpha controlling everything, but do those messages
>really make sense as something from Alpha? They tell Ballard to look
>somewhere other than the Dollhouse.
That was so he'd learn something about Caroline, as I recall?
>And how would Alpha be using that chip in the chair and/or planting secret
>messages in actives?
Hey, don't ask me how the technology or Alpha's sabotage works. After all,
he was able to introduce a computer virus into Sierra's brain.
>If he really had that much freedom of action within the Dollhouse,
>then he wouldn't need Ballard as distraction and retriever of Echo,
>and he wouldn't need to spend time breaking the security system when he
>entered with Ballard.
Well, we've seen Alpha being able to sabotage the system remotely, through
a Trojan Horse like Sierra or other means, even though it's an isolated
system, just as convenience requires it.
>I don't think that theory really hangs together.
If it's Adelle, I'm not going to find it satisfactory either.
>>... not that the writers make too much effort with regard to any of
>>the plots.
>I think you're mistaken about that, but I do think that adverse
>circumstances have made it difficult to maintain story coherence at times -
>notably the unsettled series direction early in Season One, the loss of Amy
>Acker for most of Season Two, and the need to compress the broad story to
>fit into two short seasons.
I don't think there's much evidence that much of the overall story arc was
plotted out at the beginning.
>I have no idea how or if those things impact the secret message story
>line, but I do think the writers put in considerable effort to make their
>stories tie together. When this season finally wraps up I suspect you
>will be surprised how much will have been founded on seeds planted from
>the start of Season One.
If I don't feel that some of the misdirection was cheating, yeah.