It is interesting how one little fictional show can offend so many people. Helloooo!!! We are talking about a show where the main character goes to the underworld and back, jumps from who knows how high on a mountain to a condemned ship without a glitch, fights gods on a daily basis, befriends giants, cyclops and centaurs. She has more skills than all the gods of Olympus put together, for Zeus' sake!!!
I'm not sure we are looking at the big picture. I thought the show was meant for entertainment. I certainly was not looking for a world history lesson or the meaning of life in it.
> Well according to E-Online Xena:WP is still in trouble over > The Way. A Hindu group is attacking the show on two issues:
> (1) Portrayed Krishna as a fictional being
> Which i think is an understandable complaint.
> (2) Implied that the Hindu religion endorses homosexuality
> Now it seems to me the writers/producers are making a big > mistake with this one in how they are dealing with this > issue.
> In the article: > >For the record, Gabrielle is Xena's "best friend and companion," not her > "lesbian lover," > >according to the series' literature.
> but the article also states
> >While the show's gay subtext has long been acknowledged by its stars and > producers, Xena > >and Gabrielle have yet to go farther than subtext.
> It seems to me that the writers/producers are trying to > have it both ways. For the fans there is the acknowledgement > but for legal/defensive purposes they are using the > "series literature".
> I think its time that the producers just decide which > avenue they are going to take.
> I think using a major religion was a mistake especially > using a god that is worshipped by millions i am not > defending the group but a "respectfully meant no > offense" argument is a lot better then "oh it really > isn't context - wink/wink" argument.
> I am sorry but this seems to be a very dishonest > approach the writers/producers are using.
> Its time they made up their minds and just acknowledged > the lesbian subtext and being part of the show - for the > record and not unofficially.
>God Of Tapes wrote... >I am kind of sorry they're leaving India. The whole arc was a refreshing >change from the usual and I think it might have been interesting to delve >a bit more into the country and it's culture. I wish both HERCULES and >XENA would get out of Greece more often and visit other places, other >cultures.
Paul Hilling <p.hill...@bigfoot.com> wrote: > >David S Chesler wrote... > >The reported complaint was that Krishna was portrayed as fictional. > It was *NEVER* mentioned in the episode "The Way" that Krishna was > fictional. Geez some people really do need to get a life.
People, people, people! Come on, let's step outside our tiny spheres and approach this from a global perspective, shall we? By contemporary Western/Euro standards, a television show that decides to use elements from any religion is okay. We have no problem with that. However, not everyone thinks like this. There are other countries in the world and other ways of viewing the Universe. You could argue endlessly about which is "right", but it isn't going to do any good. If someone finds something offensive, that's their right.
I think some people need to get out and travel a bit, or maybe just read more. Learn to think outside your ordinary perspectives.
> >The reported complaint was that Krishna was portrayed as fictional.
> It was *NEVER* mentioned in the episode "The Way" that Krishna was > fictional. Geez some people really do need to get a life.
> Paul Hilling
The story was fictional and Krishna was fictionalized. The best you can say is that the portrayal was an interpretion. For example Ceaser shown on Xena/Herc never met up with either character and is presented in a fictional light. Ceaser did though exist but on the show his actions are fictitious (sp?) and his mind set is interpreted by the writers and the actor. The same can be applied to Krisha.
Krishna never met Xena and never fought with Xena, the actor probably doesn't look like Krishna, his movements may not have been the same movements and of course the words may have been words Krishna might never have used.
So yes he was portrayed as fictional.
Basically all biopics or any story involving real people those people are fictionalized ie interpreted.
>Dan Tropea <dtro...@cabletron.com> wrote: >>So yes he was portrayed as fictional.
>>Basically all biopics or any story involving real people those >>people are fictionalized ie interpreted.
> These are not the same thing, fictional and fictionalized.
> In "Ben Hur", Jesus is fictionalized, in that there is no evidence >in the New Testament that Jesus ever met one Judah ben Hur. > OTOH, in Michener's "The Source", Jesus is described as >fictional, a creation of the Essenes.
> I didn't catch any treatment of Krishna as fictional (that is, >never existing in our world); on the other hand why step on toes, >why risk insulting the deeply held religious beliefs of others >by misinterpretation, merely in furtherance of entertainment? >--
Well.......
Some peoples beliefs are so "deeply" held that they will probably be offended by just about anything that doesnt exactly match those beliefs. Why, I suspect that some would even launch a protest at a TV episode that they havent even seen.
Should Altered States and RCOT have been scuttled?
How bout Raiders of the Lost Ark, It's a Wonderful Life, etc. etc.......?
As a practitioner of yoga I didnt like how in "Paradise Found" they made Aiden out to be a statue-belching freak but I think it would be silly to protest it because the show is a work of fiction and never implies that it is presenting things like this as they really are. Also, some probably became interested in yoga as a result of the ep and I think that far outweighs my individual problems with how the ep ended. And no, I dont believe that the IMO poor portrayal of Aiden "fictionalized" yoga.
How bout a vegetarian who has deeply held beliefs that the eating of meat is an atrocity and is offended by stations that carry McDonalds, etc. ads? Should those stations not carry those ads because of that?
Really, the list could go on for quite some time.
I dont believe a fictional show should actively try to discredit or otherwise demean any religion or way of life but I dont believe they should, out of fear of protest, ignore them either.
Also, these shows reach many that traditional religious outlets never would.
Gab wisdom: "A message means nothing if no one hears it. A flower in the forest is just a plant if no one sees it."
In article <7dbksh$eu...@camel0.mindspring.com>, <blind_wil...@mindspring.com> wrote: >Gab wisdom: "A message means nothing if no one hears it. A flower in the >forest is just a plant if no one sees it."
A weed is still a weed, but why do they pick on the poor dandelions?
-- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web i...@xenite.org \\// RealName: Science Fiction and Fantasy Xenite.Org //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org...............................................
In article <F947GB....@world.std.com>, David S Chesler <ches...@world.std.com> wrote:
> I didn't catch any treatment of Krishna as fictional (that is, >never existing in our world); on the other hand why step on toes, >why risk insulting the deeply held religious beliefs of others >by misinterpretation, merely in furtherance of entertainment?
Freedom of thought, freedom of speech, perhaps?
-- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ] -- ==================================================================== "The universe is not only queerer than we imagine, but it is queerer than we can imagine". -- J.B.S. Haldane ====================================================================
> >I am kind of sorry they're leaving India. The whole arc was a refreshing > >change from the usual and I think it might have been interesting to delve > >a bit more into the country and it's culture. I wish both HERCULES and > >XENA would get out of Greece more often and visit other places, other > >cultures.
>The story was fictional and Krishna was fictionalized. The >best you can say is that the portrayal was an interpretion. For example >Ceaser shown on Xena/Herc never met up with either character and is >presented in a fictional light. Ceaser did though exist but on the >show his actions are fictitious (sp?) and his mind set is interpreted >by the writers and the actor. The same can be applied to Krisha.
>Krishna never met Xena and never fought with Xena, the actor probably >doesn't look like Krishna, his movements may not have been the same >movements and of course the words may have been words Krishna might >never have used.
>So yes he was portrayed as fictional.
>Basically all biopics or any story involving real people those >people are fictionalized ie interpreted.
Well.... firstly, the words Krishna spoke were very closely based on the words of Krishna in the Bhagvad Gita, one of the major Hindu scriptures giving Krishna's teachings. Also note that Krishna was not presented as being actually alive in the world at the same time as Xena - it was a statue of Krishna which she prayed to which came to life and communicated with her. So a Christian parallel of the scene would be someone praying to a statue of Jesus which then comes to life and speaks to them based on the words of Jesus from the gospels. I don't think most people would call this "treating Jesus as fictional".
But then I don't think for a moment that the main Hindu group protesting against this ep had any real interest in the content of the ep, which they hadn't seen (and I bet still haven't)... they were just grabbing some free publicity for their own views (which IMO are fairly obnoxious, and not particularly typical of Hinduism as a whole). I'm talking here about Tustas Krishnadas and the World Vaishnava Association, for whom I have less and less respect the more I hear from them. I have no doubt that all sorts of different Hindu groups, most of which I would probably find more sympathetic, also got sucked into the protest by the campaign that the WVA started...
Discussion subject changed to "Xena and History/Legends WAS Re: Krishna was fictionalized Re: Xena - Producers poor handling over The Way" by David E. Powell
If Xena had seen every historical figure she has seen on the show (King David, Caesar, etc.) She would be about 1000 years old. I wouldn't take any gaffe on the show too seriously.
(Note - maybe Xena is believable, but Gabby would be a bit old by then.. unless Xena has an army of Gabrielle clones holed up somewhere like the incarnations of Dr. Who.)
> Well according to E-Online Xena:WP is still in trouble over
> The Way. A Hindu group is attacking the show on two issues:
> (1) Portrayed Krishna as a fictional being
> Which i think is an understandable complaint.
Let us not forget that they also distorted Lao Tzu (Taoist Regligion) and Zoroaster (Parsi) Were there any big protests? Nope. Actually it got me to finish reading the Bhagavad Gita, and I just started reading the Ramayana in Naryan's translation. They should *thank* the producers for doing the eps. So big deal.
>verseau wrote... >>Paul Hilling <p.hill...@bigfoot.com> wrote... >>>David S Chesler wrote... >>>The reported complaint was that Krishna was portrayed as fictional. >>It was *NEVER* mentioned in the episode "The Way" that Krishna was >>fictional. Geez some people really do need to get a life. >You could argue endlessly about which is "right", but it isn't going to >do any good. If someone finds something offensive, that's their right.
I have watched "The Way", and didn't find anything for this group to get upset over. The Xtianity has had it's time in Xena episodes as well, with a lot of digs in them, but did the Religious Nuts from Xtianity kick up a fuss?
Krishna came out that show with a good showing, which is not usual fare from other Gods in the Xenaverse.
>I think some people need to get out and travel a bit,
Paul Hilling <p.hill...@bigfoot.com> wrote: > >verseau wrote... > >You could argue endlessly about which is "right", but it isn't going to > >do any good. If someone finds something offensive, that's their right. > I have watched "The Way", and didn't find anything for this group to get > upset over. The Xtianity has had it's time in Xena episodes as well, with > a lot of digs in them, but did the Religious Nuts from Xtianity kick up a > fuss?
I'm sure Christian fundamentalists have grumbled about the show, if they've even seen it. My point was that nearly everyone in this thread was interpreting the reaction of fundamentalist Hindu (Hindi?) as though they lived in a Western nation and were expected to think and act like Western-thinking people, which is just plain silly. It's a different country and a different standard. Does it mean I think the producers of Xena shouldn't have touched Krishna? Not at all. They have a right to tell stories about whatever they like.
> Krishna came out that show with a good showing, which is not usual fare > from other Gods in the Xenaverse. > >I think some people need to get out and travel a bit, > I'll travel, if you pay me. <g>
Um, sure... I plan on winning the lottery any day now. Let's all follow the footsteps of Xena across the world! Who's with me? Aiiieeeeee!
You're absolutely right, Doug. These eps have raised interest in their religion. Me, I knew these stories already as I had travelled in Asia and did not wish to be an absolute ignoramus. It is interesting that the Ramayana is depicted in the traditional Wayang puppet theatre in Malaysia and Indonesia, which are very Moslem, and one doesn't hear squeeling and wailing on this account, even though the people doing this are obviously nonbelievers and therefore 'fictionalising' the story.
> > Well according to E-Online Xena:WP is still in trouble over
> > The Way. A Hindu group is attacking the show on two issues:
> > (1) Portrayed Krishna as a fictional being
> > Which i think is an understandable complaint.
> Let us not forget that they also distorted Lao Tzu (Taoist Regligion) > and Zoroaster (Parsi) > Were there any big protests? Nope. > Actually it got me to finish reading the Bhagavad Gita, and I just > started reading the Ramayana in Naryan's translation. They should > *thank* the producers for doing the eps. > So big deal.
> -- > Douglas Henderson > Remove Wombats to reply
On 29 Mar 1999 07:40:42 GMT, verseau <vers...@primenet.com> wrote:
>I'm sure Christian fundamentalists have grumbled about the show, if >they've even seen it. My point was that nearly everyone in this thread >was interpreting the reaction of fundamentalist Hindu (Hindi?) as though >they lived in a Western nation and were expected to think and act like >Western-thinking people, which is just plain silly.
Hmm... but the people who were complaining *did* all live in Western nations, so far as I can tell. Indeed the loudest leader of the complainers was Tusta (or Tustas or Trustas - the press didn't seem to have much consensus on how to spell his first name) Krishnadas, who, I gather, is a native of the US of A of European ancestry who converted to Hinduism some years ago. Most especially he seemed to be the one who peristently stressed an anti-gay basis for his objections whenever he was quoted.
Xorys <xo...@check.url.org> wrote: > Hmm... but the people who were complaining *did* all live in Western > nations, so far as I can tell. Indeed the loudest leader of the > complainers was Tusta (or Tustas or Trustas - the press didn't seem to > have much consensus on how to spell his first name) Krishnadas, who, I > gather, is a native of the US of A of European ancestry who converted > to Hinduism some years ago. Most especially he seemed to be the one > who peristently stressed an anti-gay basis for his objections whenever > he was quoted.
Wow. I had no idea this was the case. The original post seemed to imply otherwise, I think... At any rate, as Franklin pointed out in another post, it's sort of refreshing to know that religious fundamentalism isn't limited to Christianity.
Nah, they're all doing it, and if they knew the impact of so many kinds of extremist seen juxtaposed against each other (as will be reported in a multicultural country like mine), they might have second thoughts. Over in the US, is the term "fundamentalist" now getting used more broadly, as it is here?
verseau wrote: > Xorys <xo...@check.url.org> wrote: > > Hmm... but the people who were complaining *did* all live in Western > > nations, so far as I can tell. Indeed the loudest leader of the > > complainers was Tusta (or Tustas or Trustas - the press didn't seem to > > have much consensus on how to spell his first name) Krishnadas, who, I > > gather, is a native of the US of A of European ancestry who converted > > to Hinduism some years ago. Most especially he seemed to be the one > > who peristently stressed an anti-gay basis for his objections whenever > > he was quoted.
> Wow. I had no idea this was the case. The original post seemed to imply > otherwise, I think... At any rate, as Franklin pointed out in another > post, it's sort of refreshing to know that religious fundamentalism isn't > limited to Christianity.
