If we knew then... (MotFL)
David Hines
ewar...@vax.oxford.ac.uk), wondered:
>Anyone else noticing early episodes that are now making *much*
>more sense and fitting into the larger picture, when before they
>were true stand-alone stories (rather that directly arc related
>stuff)?
In a word: yes.
[Be warned: SPOILERS through "Acts of Sacrifice" are below. They're
protected by a good number of lines of incidental text and a ^L, but
they *are* there. Skip this article if you want to be unspoiled.]
If you have the early episodes on tape, *go back and rewatch them.*
There's stuff in there that you wouldn't believe - but you wouldn't
catch it if you don't know what the arc has in store for the
characters and the universe. B5 is holographic storytelling, as
JMS has been known to say.
Remember a *long* time ago, when JMS was talking about holographic
storytelling? JMS said that he used to describe B5 as linear,
but then a grip told him otherwise. The grip said,
(from JMS_answers.txt)
"That after he read two scripts, he went back and reread the
first one, and now he could see things in it that he hadn't seen
before. When he'd read three, again he glanced over the first, and new
things had come out. "What it is," he said, "is not side-by-side
images, but *overlapping* images, like old fashioned photographic
plates stacked up one on top of the other. Each has a piece of the
whole picture. When you line them all up, one behind the other, and
look through all of them at once, you realize what the picture is.
It's three-dimensional storytelling."
Recently, thanks to the kindness of Matt Ryan, the B5 librarian of
Hyde Park, Jen "the mighty wombat" Ottesen and I had the opportunity
to discover the true power of holographic storytelling. We borrowed
the tape that contained "Midnight on the Firing Line" and "Soul Hunter"
for a late night viewing spree. This post is based on ideas that arose
from our discussion; it's a more or less collaborative effort. (Of
course, *I* got to write out almost the whole thing. *grumble*)
"Soul Hunter" will be the concern of a later post; for now, we're chiefly
concerned with MotFL.
The original (er, consensus) opinion of MotFL was that it wasn't that
great of an episode. If the episode is viewed as a stand-alone, that's
still true: the pacing and direction isn't very good, the effects are
miles below what we're used to now, and the writing isn't as tight as
it has become. It's enjoyable to watch if you know and care for the
characters already. It suffered the handicap of being our first real
introduction to the new series.
As a part of the arc, on the other hand...
Thank you, sir. May I please have another?
[spoilers through "Acts of Sacrifice" - mostly for "The Coming of
Shadows, though.]
"Midnight on the Firing Line" is very much a parallel of "The Coming
of Shadows." The parallels Jen and I found are below; afterwards
is my explanation of why B5 is an extraordinary series. (Yes, it's
relevant.)
THE PARALLELS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1. Threat of war between the Narn and the Centauri.
The aggressors change between the episodes, but the threat of
war remains the same. In "Midnight," the war is averted (hey,
season 1 was happier); in "Shadows," the outcome is far less
fortunate. In addition, note these similarities between the attacks
on Raghesh III and on the Narn colony on the unnamed planet in
Quadrant 14:
- Both colonies were largely civilian.
- Both times, the side being attacked didn't know who the
attacker was (for a time).
- A conversation between the ambassadors of both sides in
which only one knows the story behind the attack.
2. Londo's dream.
The dream is seen in "Shadows," but referred to in "Midnight."
Moreover, the dream features shots from "Midnight:" the Narn
fighters and the exploding Raghesh III station.
We also see, in the dream,
3. Londo and G'Kar strangling each other,
just as they do in the zocalo in "Midnight."
4. One of the ambassadors tries to kill another.
Londo plans to kill G'kar in "Midnight;" G'kar intends the
same for Londo in "Shadows." (It's interesting to compare
Londo's relatively calm attack to G'kar's raging frenzy.)
5. Vir tells Londo not to do something and is ignored.
In "Midnight," he cowers and pleads Londo not to throw a
bottle of wine at him [Londo throws the bottle at the door,
sending glass flying]. In "Shadows," he begs Londo not
to send the Shadows against the colony in Quadrant 14.
Interestingly, in both situations, Londo is drunk: with
alcohol in "Midnight" and with power in "Shadows."
6. Londo acts against the wishes of his government
by going to the council in "Midnight," and through all his
machinations with Refa in "Shadows."
7. The attempted murder is stopped by an EA official who points out to the
would-be murderer the two choices of revenge or helping his people.
Garibaldi stops Londo, telling him, "If you kill G'kar, none of
those colonists will make it out alive!" Sheridan stops G'kar,
telling him to choose between revenge and saving his people.
Both Londo and G'kar choose to live and help their respective
people.
8. Resolution by bluff.
Sinclair threatens to expose the Narn connection with the raiders
if the Narns do not pull out of Raghesh III; Sheridan threatens
to send observers to the Narn colony in Quadrant 14. Both bluffs
work; the Narns pull out of Raghesh III and Londo agrees to
release the Narn civilians. (The bluff in "Shadows," however,
is insufficient to prevent the war - remember, first season
is happier.)
Something else interesting about these bluffs is that both take
place in the Council Chamber - even though Sinclair's bluff is
"unofficial." Hmmm...
WHY BABYLON 5 IS AN EXTRAORDINARY SERIES
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As I've rewatched the first season episodes lately, I've
come to realize just how extraordinary this series is. I remember in
the show's early days - people said, "So what's so special about this
series?" JMS's reply was along the lines of, "You've only seen a few
episodes. You haven't seen the series - yet."
He was right, too. Babylon 5 isn't extraordinary due to its
scripts, plots, or acting - sure, those are all good or great. What
makes it extraordinary is the fact that it's literature - that is
to say, it uses literary tools that are *never* used on television -
at least not on this scale. Foreshadowing, for instance. Metaphor.
They're used in TV, sure - but on a scale of one hour, or two.
Perhaps several hours, over the course of a miniseries (or the
exceedingly rare bird of a series, such as _The Prisoner_ - all
17 hrs of it).
B5 uses metaphors on the scale of *years.*
Think about that for a minute.
"Midnight on the Firing Line" isn't a great episode - *on its
own.* But I urge you, if you possibly can, *watch that episode now!*
The metaphors, the foreshadowing, the parallels - yowza.
In the zocalo, G'kar says to Londo, "The wheel turns, does it
not, ambassador?" He's referring to the Narn turning against the
Centauri, but he might as well refer to what happens when the wheel
turns back - a year later. In "Acts of Sacrifice," G'kar says something
to Delenn about being crushed under the wheel.
That's *damn* impressive. Why is the series extraordinary?
Because it uses literary techniques in ways that TeeVee just *doesn't*
*do.*
I said something similar in a post on r.a.s.tv that the Doge
found worth reposting on r.a.s.b5, but I didn't run my mouth as much
as I wanted. Now I have. I'll post more about other first season episodes
in time. However, I needed a place to start, and "Midnight on the Firing
Line" seemed as good a place as any.
[This post was based on ideas developed by myself and Jen Ottesen. I'm
sure there's something I missed that she'll clarify.]
===========================================================================
= David Hines dzh...@midway.uchicago.edu =
= "If you are going to kill me, then do so. Otherwise I have considerable =
= work to do." - Lennier, of the Third Fain of Chu'domo. =
===========================================================================
strac...@genie.geis.com
to be noticed. Now you have enough pieces to start seeing the overall
patterns and pictures.
jms
David Stinson
part of an hour. Here's what I did get. I'll get more when the whole
transcript is posted next week.
OnlineHost:
OnlineHost: *** You are in "The Bowl". ***
OnlineHost:
ClaudiaB5: Part 2 -- they must have helium on the Voyager.
DCOMLeib: You're here with Claudia Christian, Commander Susan Ivanova
from the hit TV series Babylon 5
Jms at B5: I kinda think Claudia fertilized new ground.
DCOMLeib: And J.Michael Straczynski, the show's creator.
Jms at B5: Soon to be deceaed.
DCOMLeib: The next question comes from Landtrout...
ClaudiaB5: or is that fertilizer?
Question: why does Ivanova always wear just one earring?
ClaudiaB5: In memory of my brother, both real and in the series, who
died.
DCOMLeib: An often asked question from Asmat...
Question: Questions for JMS: Will Sinclair return in a starring role?
Jms at B5: There are no plans at this time, though we will see him
again at some point.
DCOMLeib: A continuity question from Adewald...
Question: Hi. Love the show. It is very addictive. Can you tell us
how closely the comic is
Question: following the stroyline? And the recent novel as well?
Jms at B5: They tend to parallel the storyline in the series; you can
get more, but they're not...
Jms at B5: required reading per se. Some minor elements will have to
change, but overall, the...
Jms at B5: events that happen in them also happen in the series.
DCOMLeib: Our next question for Claudia comes from Gratfuldy..
Question: Claudia how do you like playing Ivanoa?
Jms at B5: BTW
ClaudiaB5: Beats working at Ralphs. No, seriously, I love my job and
the character of Susan.
Jms at B5: I should mention that a writer can write all the great lines
he wants, but they're useless
DCOMLeib: The information we're all here for...a question asked by
KrisVC...
Question: Love the show. What is instore for th rest of the season?
Jms at B5: unless youj have someone as talented as Claudia and the
others to bring them to life.
Jms at B5: What, you want me to tell you the end of the story? Is this
some leftover trace....
Jms at B5: of the communist system in operation? Who sent you? The
Centauri?
DCOMLeib: LOL
Jms at B5: Lots of things blow up. Then it gets quiet. Then somebody
isn't who we thought that...
Jms at B5: person was. Then more stuff blows up. Then something
mind-bogglingly awful happens.
Jms at B5: And then we wait for next season.
ClaudiaB5: ANd those are just the commercials.
DCOMLeib: A behind the scenes question from Elissapax...
Question: jms and cc: what is the general mood of the show taping? Is
there a lot of joking, etc.
Question: or does everyone pretty much take things seriously?
ClaudiaB5: We have a ball making B5. At least I do.
Jms at B5: Simple answer to the question: as you walk down the halls of
the B5 production office...
Jms at B5: the one sound you hear the most is laughter. And every day,
everybody eats lunch....
Jms at B5: together behind the stage, writers, actors, producers,
directors, crew, everybody....
Jms at B5: people have fun, have birthdays, hang out after work...it's
a great, fun environment....
Jms at B5: and a lot of practical jokes.
ClaudiaB5: And those are just the commercials.
DCOMLeib: BFlipp has a question about the origin of B5...
Jms at B5: And then there's Claudia.
Question: How did the concept of B5 come about?
Jms at B5: I grew up on the sagas, and always wondered why no one's
ever done for TV anything...
Jms at B5: on the scale of the Lensman books or Lord of the Rings or
Dune or Childhood's End...
Jms at B5: so I figured I'd do it myself. Took us from 1987 to 1991 to
get it going on film.
DCOMLeib: MSteenber has a question about the second season..
Question: Claudia, how is the cast reacting to the "new" captain? Is
he up to par with the old
------------- SORRY GUYS - I WAS GETTING DEAD SLOW RESPONSES FROM
AOL - and I had a major pain in my chat row (reminded
me of the pain in our 'group). Will download the
transcript from AOL when they post it.
--
**********************************************************************
****************************** <*> JUMPGATE ACTIVATED <@> **
** David A. Stinson ** "Character is what you are in the **
** dsti...@ix.netcom.com ** the dark" - Lord John Whorfin, **
** DA...@procom.com ** Buckaroo Banzai - Across the 8th **
****************************** Dimension **
**********************************************************************
* The only true measure of existence is the good you do for others *
**********************************************************************
Jay Denebeim
something, then two days later, someone else posts that they did the
same thing. For different reasons though.
We've been trying to get some of my SO's friends hooked onto Babylon
5. We finally talked one of 'em into watching two episodes. Which
two? I didn't have to think very long, MoFL and TCoS. After we'd
decided, I started to think about them.
Anyway, after Midnight, I told her "Now we're going to show you the
same story, a year later." She watched it and kept asking "Why this",
and "Why that", I said, well, its a year later, a lot of stuff has
happend.
Well, the good news is after Shadows, she asked "Do you have more of
these?"
YEAH! Hooked another one.
Jay
--
Sig under construction
Jay Denebeim
j...@deepthot.cary.nc.us dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us
dene...@deepthot.cybernetics.net duke!wolves!deepthot!denebeim
Kurt Reisler
All of which makes the release of the pilot and first season episodes on
tape (for the masses) and laser disk (for the rest of us :) all the more
important. Many of us who have been following Babylon 5 since the pilot
did not have the foresight to keep those episodes on tape (a shamefull
admission, but what the heck). Those who got hooked on the program
late in the first season, or in the second season are going to need to
be able to see those early episodes to "be enlightened". Rather then
relying on the kindness of other B5 fans, commercial release of the
first season would be most helpful to them.
--
Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
Only a guest at k...@umbc.edu
!! Leave the trolls under the bridge !!
Owen Michael Ore
I have recently introduced a friend of mine to Babylon 5. He had watched
a few of the episodes in series one, but decided he didn't like them.
We started watching from the first episode of series two and then I
began to review the earlier episodes with him (I have this appaulling
habit of recording all sci-fi (Including Seaquest DSV (Waste of tape))).
I found that I was noticing tons of small details that I hadn't seen
the first time I was watching and I actually found that I preferred
first series much more watching it in reverse order that in the original
order that it had been shown.
However the best part is that I have converted a DS9 stalwart and now
have someone to watch B5 with, rather than getting sarcastic comments
whenever its on.
I have just seen the episode where Isogi is murdered. This second series
is really building up the tension. My friend would be really interested
to know if JMS took any pointers from Hitchcock when working on the
series.
Owen Ore
The_Doge of St. Louis
>strac...@genie.geis.com wrote:
>>
>> I *cannot* tell you how pleased I am that these elements are starting
>> to be noticed. Now you have enough pieces to start seeing the overall
>> patterns and pictures.
>>
>> jms
>I found that I was noticing tons of small details that I hadn't seen
>the first time I was watching and I actually found that I preferred
>first series much more watching it in reverse order that in the original
>order that it had been shown.
>
interesting) "The Gathering" is after you've seen the first season of the
show. I'm now comtemplating going back and re-watching episodes which
(at the time) seemed a bit below par just to see if a second-season
perspective suddenly causes them to make more sense.
I've seen enough instances of minor details or apparent plot
inconsistencies that later turned out to be not only reasonable but
sometimes even essential to convince me that this might be worthwhile.
This entire series has obviously been put together with a degree of
care and attention to detail and long-term consistency that is largely
absent in television, in my experience. And that experience goes back
quite a ways, by cracky, you young whippernsappers, hee, hee..
[Sorry. I was momentarily posessed by the spirit of Walter
Brennan.]
--
*******************************************************************************
* The_Doge of St. Louis |"One Step Beyond"-Sundays 3 pm, 88.1 FM*
*******************************************************************************
lanshark
: In article <199503150826...@relay1.geis.com>,
: <strac...@genie.geis.com> wrote:
: > I *cannot* tell you how pleased I am that these elements are starting
: >to be noticed. Now you have enough pieces to start seeing the overall
: >patterns and pictures.
: All of which makes the release of the pilot and first season episodes on
: tape (for the masses) and laser disk (for the rest of us :) all the more
: important. Many of us who have been following Babylon 5 since the pilot
: did not have the foresight to keep those episodes on tape (a shamefull
: admission, but what the heck). Those who got hooked on the program
: late in the first season, or in the second season are going to need to
: be able to see those early episodes to "be enlightened". Rather then
: relying on the kindness of other B5 fans, commercial release of the
: first season would be most helpful to them.
yes, yes, yes!!
I just want to second that! I've *never* seen the first 4 episodes, and
I only caught the last half of the pilot. Please release these on video
as soon as possible!
Also, regarding Dave's excellent post: A couple of friends and I just
recently spent a good part of a week making a couple of sets of B5
tapes for friends to borrow (because we don't want to loan our own
copies out :), and we sat around rewatching several first season
episodes.
I couldn't *believe* how much I had missed the first time around, how
many little things that went unnoticed or that I didn't understand
the when I first watched the program. When I first watched B5, I
thought it was OK, and I thought I'd probably keep watching it, but
my brain was interpreting it like a normal episodic TV program. I
had absolutely *no* inkling of the bigger picture.
If any of you haven't seen the first season episodes in a while,
rewatch them now during the reruns. Even supposed non-arc shows
like "Grail" and "By Any Means Necessary" have *lots* of little
goodies tucked away that make much more sense now, are suddenly
become relevent and important.
thanks for a fantastic show, JMS!
--lanshark
Mary Melchior
: In article <199503150826...@relay1.geis.com>,
: <strac...@genie.geis.com> wrote:
: > I *cannot* tell you how pleased I am that these elements are starting
: >to be noticed. Now you have enough pieces to start seeing the overall
: >patterns and pictures.
: >
: > jms
: All of which makes the release of the pilot and first season episodes on
: tape (for the masses) and laser disk (for the rest of us :) all the more
: important. Many of us who have been following Babylon 5 since the pilot
Yes! Ive gotten a number of my friends addicted to the show, but I don't
have the first season episodes to show them. I'll buy them as soon as you
get them out.
: did not have the foresight to keep those episodes on tape (a shamefull
U V Alpha
<strac...@genie.geis.com> wrote:
> I *cannot* tell you how pleased I am that these elements are
starting
>to be noticed. Now you have enough pieces to start seeing the overall
>patterns and pictures.
>
> jms
This is something almost completely off the subject, but at work today we
had a video about paradigms, and how they can keep you from even SEEING
things if they aren't what you expect to see. In the film, there was a
part where the person showed you 8 different cards three different times
-- the first time for only about a third of a second or something like
that. During that first time through, hardly anyone in the audience
noticed the two *red* spades or the one *black* heart -- but I did. Some
more of the audience picked them out the second time when they double the
amount of time the cards are shown, and some more the third time when they
quadruple it, but I think I was the only one to notice them the first time
through.
What this has to do with B5 is: I'm beginning to wonder if looking for
all these little split-second details in the backgrounds of the show, like
the folks in the throne room on Centauri Prime, is what makes me able to
do this...
-----------------------------<<*>>---------------------------------
"I don't trust anybody." --M. Garibaldi
UVA...@aol.com (I. Sanderson)
-------------------------------<*>------------------------------------
Larry W. Virden
Folk should be sure to submit new ideas, considerations, points, etc. to
the Lurker pages when they are re-viewing the episodes. In particular,
there are several episode summaries which are pretty barren as to
'watch for/special consideration/etc.' type remarks.
--
:s Larry W. Virden INET: larry....@cas.org
:s <URL:http://www-bprc.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp/lvirden_sig.html>
:s Unless explicitly stated to the contrary, nothing in this posting should
:s be construed as representing my employer's opinions.
Suzann Welker
Thanks for posting what you could! Look forward to reading the other half.
Dawn
Nyrath the nearly wise
: noticed the two *red* spades or the one *black* heart -- but I did. Some
: more of the audience picked them out the second time when they double the
: amount of time the cards are shown, and some more the third time when they
: quadruple it, but I think I was the only one to notice them the first time
: through.
: What this has to do with B5 is: I'm beginning to wonder if looking for
: all these little split-second details in the backgrounds of the show, like
: the folks in the throne room on Centauri Prime, is what makes me able to
: do this...
Makes sense to me.
There was a fellow named Renshaw who attempted to make training devices
to teach just that skill. I'm not sure what they were called, but
the term "tatistascope" (sp?) sticks in my mind.
I was exposed to one when I was in grade school. You sat in a room
in front of a movie screen. The tatistascope would project one line
of text from a book, one word at a time, using some sort of movable
shield over the source text. The rate of display could be adjusted
up to a point where it would show the line on the screen for only a
fraction of a second.
I believe that Heinlein mentioned Renshaw in one of his novels
(CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY?)
--
___
<(*)> Nyrath
strac...@genie.geis.com
one from I think grade school or thereabouts. Main reason I remember is
that I actually scared the hell out of my teacher, and was briefly
accused of cheating.
They erected the 'scope in the classroom, and showed one word at a
time, going from small one-syllable words then increasing. They flashed
the words in increasingly briefer intervals, two seconds, one second, a
half a second...fewer and fewer people were able to keep up. I got all
the way through to the highest the machine could handle, 1/12th of a
second, or therabouts.
Next the teacher started going into combinations of words, two or
three at a time. People started dropping out faster. Again, I stuck
with it to the end. The teacher began to wonder what the hell was going
on. (This was at a time when I'd learned that if you acted smart, you
got beat up, so I was deliberatly holding back on my grades and tests to
skate through in the middle ranks.) But here I kinda figured it was a
game, and didn't equate it. So I just went on to see how far I could
push it.
She kept expanding the length of the sentence. I was finally able
to hit 2 and 1/2 lines at 1/12th of a second before she stopped and
said I was to stay after class. I was accused (in front of the vice
principal) of cheating, having looked at the sheets of lines somehow,
because this was at or above college level ability. The vice principal
at first wouldn't believe me, but I finally managed to convince him to
pick other material and I'd try again. Reluctantly, he did it, going
right to the full-sentence stuff.
Same result. And the look on the teacher's face as she realized I
wasn't cheating was quite...remarkable.
Oddly enough, this has served me in small ways lately. Sometimes
in the later stages of post-production, when the final print has been
assembled by the super-computer, every so often a glitch will happen
and one random or wrong frame will get stuck somewhere, or you'll have
a single frame of black between a CGI sequence and a live-action
sequence. We're talking here 1/24th of a second. I almost always
catch these. I did this once during one of our audio mixes and the
guys running the board couldn't believe it, and ran the film back to
make sure I wasn't messing with them.
jms
Nyrath the nearly wise
: Yes, the tatistascope (or whatever the name is), I remember that
: one from I think grade school or thereabouts. Main reason I remember is
: that I actually scared the hell out of my teacher, and was briefly
: accused of cheating.
Heh. I know what you went through. I wasn't accused of cheating, but
the teacher did get rather worried. They never said anything to me, but
they *never* let me use the machine again.
: Oddly enough, this has served me in small ways lately. Sometimes
: in the later stages of post-production, when the final print has been
: assembled by the super-computer, every so often a glitch will happen
: and one random or wrong frame will get stuck somewhere, or you'll have
: a single frame of black between a CGI sequence and a live-action
: sequence. We're talking here 1/24th of a second. I almost always
: catch these.
There was a TV show about the special effects of the Star Wars movies
a few years ago. They showed "the most complicated SFX shot of all time",
and I noticed a couple of TIE fighters in *front* of the Falcon, when
they should have been *behind*.
Right after that shot they showed a slow motion replay, and pointed
out the two TIE fighters, saying that most people wouldn't notice such
a short-lived mistake.
I haven't noticed any such mistakes in B5 though. I guess they
didn't escape the attention of The Great Maker's eagle eye.
--
___
<(*)> Nyrath
Bob Alberti
: actually scared the hell out of my teacher, and was briefly
: accused of cheating.
Ha! Good story. I had the same thing happen to me. They gave me one
of those IQ tests and I ran all the way through one test, the short-term
memorization of random numbers. They had me repeating twenty numbers between
one and 99, in reverse order of presentation. Then they figured I was
cheating or "counting on my fingers" and threw out the results. Talk
about culling for mediocrity.
But my FINEST day was in high school. I was home, going through a closet,
and pitching old Reader's Digest magazines. I read this "Drama in Real Life"
about two girls caught in a train wreck.
The next day the teacher handed out a surprise reading-comprehension test.
By absolute coincidence, the reading sample was the SAME ARTICLE (from a
Reader's Digest no less than five years old).
I handed in the comprehension sheet with a 100% score less than one minute
after she handed out the test. I treasured the look on her face for fifteen
years before I told her about it... hahahaha!
Steven Cobb
>one from I think grade school or thereabouts. Main reason I remember is
>that I actually scared the hell out of my teacher, and was briefly
>accused of cheating.
>
Hmm, I've never heard of any kind of cognitive testing using a
tachistascope. I wonder what they were up to. Can you
think of anything that you did as a kid that might have helped
your performance? Whatever the mechanism, it sure sounds like
it comes in handy now.
Next time you're in San Diego, we'll have to do an MEG scan
on you - see what's going on in there. But, we'll have to
do it before the bloody terrorists do their thing. I sure
hope that there is no self fulfilling prophecy there.
Cheers,
Steve Cobb
sc...@ucsd.edu
UCSD Vision Lab
Scripps Research Foundation Biomagnetism Lab
Craig Stephenson
Text Edited for brevity
> Yes, the tatistascope (or whatever the name is), I remember that
>one from I think grade school or thereabouts. Main reason I remember is
>that I actually scared the hell out of my teacher, and was briefly
>accused of cheating.
>
>
>wasn't cheating was quite...remarkable.
>
When I was in school I also held myself back so as not to be too
"brainy" and thus got into trouble for getting too high marks in exams.
I was taken to the principal's office and accused of outright cheating,
the charge was something along the lines of "we know your cheating, we
just don't know how!' I was then forced to sit an I.Q. test and when
the results came back (an I.Q. of 185) the teacher and principal were
very chagrined, and then accused my of waasting their time with the
whole stunt. To this day (over 15 years) I still have not recieved the
promised apology.
I have had the last laugh, however, as I now work in the public service
and am responsible for organising the same teacher's pensions (a good
thing I am not as petty as they are)!!
------
Craig Stephenson
st...@iinet.com.au
I have the perfect solution for a sore throught, cut it!
Alfred Hitchcock.
------
Lorne Beaton
<strac...@genie.geis.com> wrote:
> Yes, the tatistascope (or whatever the name is), I remember that
>one from I think grade school or thereabouts. Main reason I remember is
>that I actually scared the hell out of my teacher, and was briefly
>accused of cheating.
Tachystoscope. From the same Greek root, tachys- (or is it just tachy-?),
meaning "speed," from which we get tachyometer (something that measures
speed), tachyon (a *really* fast, i.e. FTL, particle), tachycardia (fast
heartbeat), etc.
Lorne Beaton
Nyrath the nearly wise <nyr...@clark.net> wrote:
>There was a TV show about the special effects of the Star Wars movies
>a few years ago. They showed "the most complicated SFX shot of all time",
>and I noticed a couple of TIE fighters in *front* of the Falcon, when
>they should have been *behind*.
> Right after that shot they showed a slow motion replay, and pointed
>out the two TIE fighters, saying that most people wouldn't notice such
>a short-lived mistake.
I've seen that, but a) I had to have it pointed out to me, and b) I had
to freeze-frame it on the VCR to actually see it!
Dickson, Leslie
: In the thread "UK: Infection," Ian Jeffries (posting from
: >Anyone else noticing early episodes that are now making *much*
: >more sense and fitting into the larger picture, when before they
: >were true stand-alone stories (rather that directly arc related
: >stuff)?
: In a word: yes.
In a related vein: This sort of question has been asked before months (years)
ago but I would like to ask it again: If you had to assemble 1 or 2 VHS
tape's worth (6-12 episodes) of B5 to send to a friend to give them a sense
of the series and illustrate the arc and holographic nature of the series, which
ones would you include? I personally would like to include enough episodes to
cover the PSI-CORPS conpiracy and the coming of the Shadows and the leadup
to the Narn-Centauri war. So, what do you think I should include? Comments
and answers are welcome because I would actually like to do this for a few
friends who haven't seen it yet.
=======================================================================
Dr Les Dickson Toxicology Research Centre Analytical Chemist
Les.D...@Usask.Ca University of Saskatchewan Trace Organics
=======================================================================
Constantine Dokolas
It's tachys (male gender) when used in a dictionary. Tachy is the
neutral gender.
Doc (maybe the only Greek around here :( )
**--------------------------------------------------------------------------**
Constantine "Doc" Dokolas | d...@acm.org | Project: theOS
PGP public keys available from servers, finger, and the Four11 database
Visit <a href="http://www.acm.org/~doc/homepage.html">Doc's Homepage</a>
GCS d-- -p+ c+++(++++) l u-- e* m++ s+/-- n@ h+(*) f g+ w+ t@ b+++ r- !y
******************************************************************************
Jeff Lindstrom
> Yes, the tatistascope (or whatever the name is), I remember that
>one from I think grade school or thereabouts. Main reason I remember is
>that I actually scared the hell out of my teacher, and was briefly
>accused of cheating.
>
> Next the teacher started going into combinations of words, two or
>three at a time. People started dropping out faster. Again, I stuck
>with it to the end.
I remember this thing. Did you get the same story I saw, about the
naked, sleepwalking tree-climber?
> Oddly enough, this has served me in small ways lately. Sometimes
>in the later stages of post-production, when the final print has been
>assembled by the super-computer, every so often a glitch will happen
>and one random or wrong frame will get stuck somewhere, or you'll have
>a single frame of black between a CGI sequence and a live-action
>sequence. We're talking here 1/24th of a second. I almost always
>catch these. I did this once during one of our audio mixes and the
>guys running the board couldn't believe it, and ran the film back to
>make sure I wasn't messing with them.
I may have you one better. I tape some Saturday morning cartoon shows for
watching when I am actually awake. Once, I noticed `something', but
couldn't quite figure out what it was until I rewound and slo-mo'ed
through the scene. Sure enough, in one frame, the athletic female
protagonist's bikini top disappeared, showing one breast (including the
nipple).
I hesitate to identify the show in a public forum because I don't want
the show butchered should it be re-run again, but it ran on CBS in the
80s.
--
Regards,
Jeff Lindstrom jeff...@netcom.com
Dave Caulton
> Yes, the tatistascope (or whatever the name is), I remember that
> one from I think grade school or thereabouts. Main reason I remember is
> that I actually scared the hell out of my teacher, and was briefly
> accused of cheating.
Tachistoscope, I believe. Now largely replaced by computers in psych.
experiments
Dave.
--
Dave Caulton
Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience
University of Oregon
cau...@oregon.uoregon.edu
Alta Brewer
writes:
>
>In a related vein: This sort of question has been asked before months (years)
>ago but I would like to ask it again: If you had to assemble 1 or 2 VHS
>tape's worth (6-12 episodes) of B5 to send to a friend to give them a sense
>of the series and illustrate the arc and holographic nature of the series,
which
>ones would you include? I personally would like to include enough episodes to
>cover the PSI-CORPS conpiracy and the coming of the Shadows and the leadup
>to the Narn-Centauri war. So, what do you think I should include? Comments
>and answers are welcome because I would actually like to do this for a few
>friends who haven't seen it yet.
>
>
>
ended up with seven episodes per season. (Maybe you could do eight-hour
tapes?) Anyway, here are my fourteen episodes:
Season 1
Midnight on the Firing Line
Mind War
The Parliament of Dreams
And the Sky Full of Stars
Signs and Portents
Babylon Squared
Chrysalis
Season 2
Points of Departure
Revelations
Spider in the Web
A Race through Dark Places
The Coming of Shadows
All Alone in the Night
Hunter, Prey
If I had to do a single tape for everything to date, I would include:
Midnight on the Firing Line
Mind War
And the Sky Full of Stars
Signs and Portents
Chrysalis
Revelations
The Coming of Shadows
All Alone in the Night
If I wanted to fit everything onto 6 hour tapes, I would cut the Psi Corps
stuff, but that's just personal 'cause it doesn't interest me.
--alta
"Sooner or later, everyone comes to Babylon 5"
Steven Grimm
Midnight on the Firing Line
Soul Hunter
Mind War
And the Sky Full of Stars
Deathwalker
Signs and Portents
Babylon Squared
Chrysalis
If I were to do a tape of season two so far, I'd include:
Points of Departure
Revelations
A Spider in the Web
A Race Through Dark Places
The Coming of Shadows
All Alone in the Night
Acts of Sacrifice
Hunter, Prey
I'd drop "Spider" and "Acts" first to make room for upcoming episodes,
though I have a feeling we're due for more than two WHAMs in the
remaining nine hours.
Pray they don't split it up into two batches with more reruns in the
middle -- though I'm sure lots of UK viewers would be perfectly happy to
get the last three or four episodes before they're shown stateside.
-Steve
Gharlane of Eddore
nyr...@clark.net (Nyrath the nearly wise) writes:
>
....<deletia>
>
> Makes sense to me.
> There was a fellow named Renshaw who attempted to make training devices
> to teach just that skill. I'm not sure what they were called, but
> the term "tatistascope" (sp?) sticks in my mind.
"Tachistoscope."
From "tachy.." (fast, or speed)
"scope.." (see)
> I was exposed to one when I was in grade school. You sat in a room
> in front of a movie screen. The tatistascope would project one line
> of text from a book, one word at a time, using some sort of movable
> shield over the source text. The rate of display could be adjusted
> up to a point where it would show the line on the screen for only a
> fraction of a second.
My problem with the bloody things was that they went so dang slow,
and bust when you zoop 'em up to a decent reading speed.
I was really glad when CRT displays became available, because it
takes so *long* to turn a page.
> I believe that Heinlein mentioned Renshaw in one of his novels
> (CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY?)
Note that Heinlein's primary model for "CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY" (and
one which he specifically acknowledged!) was Rudyard Kipling's "KIM."
You'll find other references to Renshaw full-recall training techniques
in "UNIVERSE" and "COMMON SENSE" (novellas composited into the book
"ORPHANS OF THE SKY") and "STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND."
This sort of thing is important enough in real life that it shows up
in intelligently-written fiction. (Sam Durrell, for example, can
memorize reams of material on one hearing, even if he has no idea
what it's about. This is one of the things Edward S. Aarons does right.)
Part of Kim's training in recall technique, and the training
games Kipling describes, go back for centuries, if not millennia.
Couriers, military personnel, cardsharps, illusionists, intelligence
agents, all have a huge incentive to be able to learn and remember
quickly, with high accuracy. For about a century, the training
game from "KIM" has been called "Kim's Game." It's still more
popular among kids in the U.K. than in the U.S., for some reason.
Lord Baden-Powell made "Kim's Game" a major part of Boy Scout training;
if you couldn't memorize, you didn't attain much rank! (This, of course,
was during an era when the Boy Scouts were an elite organization, not a
franchise boys' club operated by salaried babysitters and managers.)
I know of *NO* use of "Kim's Game" in the BSA these days, but...
get this.... recently encountered mention of it being used by the
Girl Scouts....... so perhaps the GSA will be able to compensate for
the watering down of BSA standards, after the Nuclear Holocaust......
*grin*
John Benn
>ago but I would like to ask it again: If you had to assemble 1 or 2 VHS
>tape's worth (6-12 episodes) of B5 to send to a friend to give them a sense
>of the series and illustrate the arc and holographic nature of the
series, which
>ones would you include? I personally would like to include enough episodes to
>cover the PSI-CORPS conpiracy and the coming of the Shadows and the leadup
>to the Narn-Centauri war. So, what do you think I should include? Comments
>and answers are welcome because I would actually like to do this for a few
>friends who haven't seen it yet.
Essentials: 106 Mind War
108 And the Sky Full of Stars
113 Signs and Portents
120 Babylon Squared
122 Chrysalis
201 Points of Departure
202 Revelations
206 A Spider in the Web
208 A Race Through Dark Places
209 The Coming of Shadows
Nice Extras:101 Midnight on the Firing Line
102 Soul Hunter
105 Parliament of Dreams
109 Deathwalker
110 Believers
112 By Any Means Necessary
117 Legacies
118 A Voice in the Wilderness I
119 A Voice in the Wilderness II
205 The Long Dark
207 Soul Mates
210 Gropos
Extras: 103 Born to the Purple
111 Survivors
116 Eyes
203 The Geometry of Shadows
Forget it: 104 Infection
107 War Prayer
114 TKO
115 Grail
121 The Quality of Mercy
204 A Distant Star
This is my list in order of "must see". The only episodes which I
think could be switched around are The Geometry of Shadows and Soul
Hunter. Both of which might jump a catagory depending on later
events. In any case the essentials are pretty standard. A lot of
people think that the Parliament of Dreams is really arc relevant, and
it is to an extent, but the casual viewer isn't going to pick up on
the prophecy thing in Delenn's rebirth ceremony so I say forget it.
Anyone who's ever sat down to a good treatment of B5 has at least
walked away saying something like: "The show is interesting and well
thought out and I can appreciate it more now", and many walk away
thinking that it's a good show and become a regular viewer. The big
problem with B5 is that viewers don't understand what it's trying to
accomplish. Most people are ignorant of the arc and take in an
episode and really don't see what us netters see in it. The episodic
yet consistent-arc format is something pretty new in television.
Truett Smith
the late show you count the splices in the film as they go by? Several
years ago, when working on the digitial image systems for flight
simulators, I discovered that I was quite good at catching things that
changed for only one frame or one field. A couple of us could
occasionally catch glitches that were one field in duration on
helicopter simulators running 4:1 interlace or 120 fields/sec.
Naturally we were the folks with the worst acuity in the group and we
were accused of having "insect vision"...
There is one drawback -- I can't watch a British TV (24 Hz PAL) unless
it's PERFECTLY adjusted and the signal is PERFECT. Otherwise it
shimmers and gives me headaches. The PAL-M in Hong Kong didn't have the
same effect at all
(either it's a faster field rate or the HK engineers are better :-( !).
As for teachers who think you're cheating -- my aphakic eyes (no lenses,
cataracts removed in infancy) and their ability to see well into the UV
had a run-in with a physics grad assistant once, who couldn't believe
that I could actually see spectroscopic lines at 3100 Angstoms.
--
Truett Lee Smith
Tandem Computers, 10100 N. Tantau Ave., LOC 251-04,
Cupertino, California 95014-2542
Home: (415) 961-3258 Work: (408) 285-6675
tru...@netcom.COM smith_...@tandem.com
7603...@compuserve.com
Samuel S. Paik
>sequence. We're talking here 1/24th of a second. I almost always
>catch these.
Aha! I was right!
You are doing 3-2 pulldown from frames, so the temporal antialiasing
applied to the CGI isn't correct.
I remember the argument in the alt B5 newsgroup about antialiasing
right after the pilot showed. And I said it didn't look like the
antialiasing was done properly, and was jumped on all over.
See "Antialiasing of Interlaced Video Animation", John Amanatides and
Don P. Mitchell, Siggraph 1990.
--
Samuel Paik / Digital Equipment Corporation / 3D Device Support
pa...@avalon.eng.pko.dec.com / 508-493-4048 / I speak only for myself
Make it fool-proof and I'll become a bigger fool.
Thomas Farrell
: All of which makes the release of the pilot and first season episodes on
: tape (for the masses) and laser disk (for the rest of us :) all the more
: important. Many of us who have been following Babylon 5 since the pilot
: admission, but what the heck).
Lack of foresight heck... I'm not bothering to collect the episodes off
air on tape because I fully planned from day one to get them on laserdisc.
Something this good shouldn't be wasted on poor quality like VHS.
Tom
--
I think extreme heterosexuality is a perversion.
-Margaret Mead, anthropologist
Gary Feldman
Perhaps a better example from the Star Wars trilogy is the scene near
the very end, where Darth Vader repents and rescues Luke by grabbing
the Emperor and throwing him down a shaft. As the Emperor's force
attacks hit Vader, you can see quick X-Ray views of Vader, showing a
combination of human skeleton and mechanical parts.
Gary
Nyrath the nearly wise
: As for teachers who think you're cheating -- my aphakic eyes (no lenses,
: cataracts removed in infancy) and their ability to see well into the UV
: had a run-in with a physics grad assistant once, who couldn't believe
: that I could actually see spectroscopic lines at 3100 Angstoms.
I understand that individuals such as yourself were used during
world war II. Allied agents in enemy territory would go to a coastal
site at night with a UV lamp. Offshore in a naval ship would be
a person with aphakic eyes who could see the morse code UV flashes,
but nobody else (especially enemy soldiers) could see them.
--
___
<(*)> Nyrath
Dickson, Leslie
: In a related vein: This sort of question has been asked before months (years)
: ago but I would like to ask it again: If you had to assemble 1 or 2 VHS
: tape's worth (6-12 episodes) of B5 to send to a friend to give them a sense
: of the series and illustrate the arc and holographic nature of the series, which
: ones would you include? ... (snip)
Thanks to all those who offered suggestions on the episodes. If you would
like a copy of the collated and prioritized list please send an E-mail message
and I will reply in kind.
Philip Banks
: [spoilers through "Acts of Sacrifice" - mostly for "The Coming of
: Shadows, though.]
:
: "Midnight on the Firing Line" is very much a parallel of "The Coming
: of Shadows." The parallels Jen and I found are below; afterwards
: is my explanation of why B5 is an extraordinary series. (Yes, it's
: relevant.)
[chunks munched]
: B5 uses metaphors on the scale of *years.*
:
: Think about that for a minute.
:
: "Midnight on the Firing Line" isn't a great episode - *on its
: own.* But I urge you, if you possibly can, *watch that episode now!*
: The metaphors, the foreshadowing, the parallels - yowza.
Also consider the foreshadowing of Kosh's conversation with Sinclair
in MotFL.
'They are a dying species, we should let them pass.'
'Who? The Narn or the Centauri?'
'Yes.'
We know now that the Minbari reject the Shadows at sight. We also know
that the Vorlons don't like them either. If we consider Kosh's "They are
not for you." from 'Signs and Portents' It is fairly clear that the
Vorlons are interceeding between the Shadows and the Humans.
It might be reasonable to asssume that Kosh might mean *both* Humans and
Minbari in this statement. Given that we do have the Minbari beleiving
humanity to be their soul brothers.
But if we take the simplistic approach of assuming that Kosh means
purely the humans then we have three of the major five races accounted
for. Vorlons and Minbari will have nothing to do with the Shadows.
Humanity is 'protected' by the Vorlons. (I quote the word protected
because it is not at all clear that the Vorlons have Humanities best
interests at heart here.) That leaves the Narns, Centauri and the Non-
Aligned worlds.
Given that the Shadows occupied the Narn homeworld to some degree in
the previous great war I believe it is reasonable to assume that the
Shadows are not interested in non space-faring races, so a goodly number
of the small non-aligned worlds will be 'safe' during the coming war.
Also consider that the Shadows appear to be using a divide and conquer
stratagey with the Narns and Centauri, and that the Vorlons have seen
such tactics probably used before.
I contend therefore that Kosh *knew* that the Narns and Centauri are
the only two races 'available' to be used in such a scheme and that
eventually that one or other of the races would be maneuvered into
fighting a genocidal war. I postulate also, given Londo's dream (have to
see that yet), that the Shadows tend to annihilate the people they help
and that the Centauri also are as equally doomed as the Narns are.
Thus Kosh's comments make alot more sense now.
If you assume my analysis is right it poses alot of interesting
questions. Why are the Vorlons unwilling to interceed with the Narns or
Centauri and prevent the resource wasteful war that is occuring now? Do
they lack the resources? Or, more likely, are they unwilling? We have
been told that the Minbari and Vorlons have a secret relationship of
somekind.
Perhaps that is why the Vorlons are protecting humanity now, because
we are - by proxy - Minbari. And why do the Vorlons have any dealings
with the Minbari at all? They have stated that they have no interest in
the affairs of others. This could imply that the Minbari are somehow
actually 'Vorlon' and thus the interest. (And again, by proxy, the
interest in humanity.) There is some evidence to suggest this might be
the case in the architecture style of the two races, while the Vorlons
clearly love completely organic stuctures the Minbari ships do have
flowing lines reminiscent of living things. Except they enjoy a much
stronger bone motif. :)
Some interesting ideas come out of assuming that the Minbari are
Vorlon in origin. Are the Minbari constructs designed and purpose built
to fight the Shadows? And has humanity been tinkered with by the Vorlons
as well? Is that why humanity is having the flowering of psi abilities?
Because the Vorlon designed 'life essence' of the Minbari is becoming a
part of humanity?
Again if the psi aspect is a Minbari construct 'influence' and they
were designed by the Vorlons then it implies that the Shadows must be
skilled at psi as well. Is that why the Vorlons are so leary of telepaths?
It also offers a possible explanation for the three ages of humanity. (I
mean it is no coincidence that the Minbari started losing souls some two
thousand years back and that corresponds roughly to what could be
considered the birth and rise of Western Civilisation as we know it now.)
And if the Shadows do only target space faring races, why? They seem
to have a much finer control of hyperspace and some speculation exists to
them living in it. Do they resent the intrusion of ships into their
living space?
Oh yes, some of us have the entire series on tape and do remember the
older episodes and bits that we thought were arc important. :)
Philip
John R. Cooper
> I recommend to everyone - do whatever it takes to get your hands
> on the early episodes, and tape everything. In a year or so we'll all want
> to watch Kosh's "interaction" with his ship again...
This I would very much like to do. Two things though:
(1) I don't know anyone who has taped Season One and will either lend them
to me or make copies.
(2) I heard that B5 was going to be released on laserdisc. This I would
kill for! When are they scheduled for release? Will there be two
episodes per disc? What about pricing?
-John
strac...@genie.geis.com
ways, they were set up as mirror-image parallels of one another, to show
how the wheel turns, to quote G'Kar. The opening council meeting, the
attacks, the determination to kill the other, alternately Garibaldi or
Sheridan having to stop them by calling on the question of consequences if
followed up on...it shows CoS as sort of the "dark mirror" of the first
episode. Everything we saw when we first thought we knew what the series
was has now totally reversed and been turned on its head.
They also focus on one of the main questions that B5 addreses itself
to: what is important to you? what are you willing to sacrifice? how far
are you willing to go to get what you want? For me, a large measure of
defining WHO we are is by WHAT we are willing to do, and what we want, and
the means by which we pursue those goals. The other theme of course is
sacrifice, which recurs throughout the show in one form or another.
Sometimes, I think, people get so caught up in what's happening and
why that they miss what it's *about* on a more cellular level. And that's
the question of who we are. Identity. The importance of *one single
person* and the ability of that person to act as a fulcrum, intentionally
or otherwise, upon which vast events can turn. Choices. What you value
most. Those, to me, are the issues most worth exploring. We're told
every day, beaten down with the notion that we're powerless, that we
can't change things, you can't fight city hall...and of course it's not
true. You can fight. And sometimes, you can even win.
jms
Hal Reed
>Yes! Ive gotten a number of my friends addicted to the show, but I don't
>have the first season episodes to show them. I'll buy them as soon as you
>get them out.
As an avid fan since day one I've had the luxury of having all the episodes
on tape, and watched them again and again. I recently watched MotFL and
Coming of Shadows back to back -- TALK ABOUT PARALLEL VISUALS!! From the
establishing shots on Centauri worlds to Londo's dream to G'Kar's hatred
of the Centauri, the whole thing has come full circle *as it was meant to*.
I remember jms writing at one point that most shows set up their climactic
moments ten minutes in advance, whereas B5 would set them up a *season* in
advance. I recommend to everyone - do whatever it takes to get your hands
on the early episodes, and tape everything. In a year or so we'll all want
to watch Kosh's "interaction" with his ship again...
Hal Reed - hal...@delphi.com - h...@intersys.com
Bernard HP Gilroy
>In article <199503312234...@relay1.geis.com>, strac...@genie.geis.com writes:
>
>[interesting comments snipped]
>
>> We're told
>> every day, beaten down with the notion that we're powerless, that we
>> can't change things, you can't fight city hall...and of course it's not
>> true. You can fight. And sometimes, you can even win.
>>
>> jms
>
>
>"The avalanche has already begun. It is too late for the pebbles to protest"
>
>doesn't seem to necessarily buy into that philosophy. Of course, I don't
>assign a one-to-one correspondance between jms's beliefs and those of the
>characters. It just makes me wonder about Kosh's state of mind concerning the
>inevitability of the things to come.
Ah, but look closely. Kosh didn't say the pebbles couldn't
ever vote .. they just can't vote _any longer_. Once you've stepped
outside the airplane door, it's too late to choose a parachute. You
can't choose not to fall -- but you could have chosen not to step
outside.
Considering the Great War rushing toward the galaxy, and the
fact that no one seems willing to stop it, perhaps Kosh is offering a
warning about the conduct of the "neutrals". To pull an example from
this century, once Germany had invaded Poland, the Western Allies
could no longer act to halt the conflict -- but they could have
earlier, if they'd had the foresight.
Mayhaps we'll be saying the same thing about the EA.
Bernard HP Gilroy -- gil...@leland.stanford.edu -- <b|Hp|g>
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~gilroy
"...there was always a minority afraid of something, and a great
majority afraid of the dark, afraid of the future, afraid of the past..."
from _The Martian Chronicles_ by Ray Bradbury
Larry W. Virden
Even more important than the fact that we _might_ win in 'the fight against
city hall' is that we DID fight. As the old cliche goes 'one being can
make a difference'; if no one tries, the of course no difference will be
made.
--
:s Larry W. Virden INET: larry....@cas.org
:s <URL:http://www-bprc.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp/lvirden_sig.html>
:s Unless explicitly stated to the contrary, nothing in this posting should
:s be construed as representing my employer's opinions.
bs...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
was Grandpa Munster a Minbari? Or am I the only person who is continually
struck by the resemblance between Al Lewis in costume and the Minbari...
especially the Ambassador. (Well, it contributes to an explanation of why
that family was a bit out of step with the neighborhood.....)
Alta Brewer
the end, when Garibaldi asks Delenn how she got Londo to help take Varn
and Draal to the planet, she says: “An exchange of promises. I now owe
him a great favor. He will come to collect, sooner or later.” At the
time I first saw it, I just let this pass, but now I wonder when and for
what Londo will ask. Didn’t Morden also say that someday they (the
shadows) would ask Londo a favor? Interesting that Delenn owes Londo
who owes the shadows...
--alta
“Are we just toys to you?”
You know who
Hum... I thinks that maybe you mean the the Centauri since Delenn looks nothing
like Grandpa Munster :-)
--
Tamazin (also known as Rebecca Sutton)
Tam...@stylo.demon.co.uk
"Never put your wishbone where your backbone ought to be.
That's an adage full of wisdom and applies to you and me."
Anon. (I think)
"And it would confuse your chiropractor too...." :-)
Dan KayBee
[interesting comments snipped]
> We're told
> every day, beaten down with the notion that we're powerless, that we
> can't change things, you can't fight city hall...and of course it's not
> true. You can fight. And sometimes, you can even win.
>
> jms
Kosh's comment in "Believers", that
"The avalanche has already begun. It is too late for the pebbles to protest"
doesn't seem to necessarily buy into that philosophy. Of course, I don't
assign a one-to-one correspondance between jms's beliefs and those of the
characters. It just makes me wonder about Kosh's state of mind concerning the
inevitability of the things to come.
Personally, I prefer a quote I heard a long time ago, author unknown, that
makes for a nice counter to Kosh's sentiment...
"No single snowflake considers itself responsible for the avalanche"
DKB
Candide
: [interesting comments snipped]
: > We're told
: > every day, beaten down with the notion that we're powerless, that we
: > can't change things, you can't fight city hall...and of course it's not
: > true. You can fight. And sometimes, you can even win.
: >
: > jms
: Kosh's comment in "Believers", that
: "The avalanche has already begun. It is too late for the pebbles to protest"
: doesn't seem to necessarily buy into that philosophy.
I don't agree. I see Kosh's statement as part of that philosophy JMS
was describing, and as a tie-in to your next quote from another source:
: "No single snowflake considers itself responsible for the avalanche"
Namely - "Take responsibililty for your actions and don't complain
when things go wrong if you don't." In the Kosh quote, I see the
"pebbles" as the people who buy into the lie that "you can't fight
city hall" and just ride along with events, like pebbles in an
avalache. Of course, when they realize that the events they're riding
are an avalache, they complain about what's happening - yet if they
really wanted to do something about it, they would have been taking
action long, long before those unpleasant events got rolling.
--
-Candide [wei...@ucsuc.colorado.edu]
"Tread carefully through the mountains, lest they fall from
beneath your feet..."
Charles J. Cohen
<strac...@genie.geis.com> wrote:
> They also focus on one of the main questions that B5 addreses itself
>to: what is important to you? what are you willing to sacrifice? how far
>are you willing to go to get what you want? For me, a large measure of
>defining WHO we are is by WHAT we are willing to do, and what we want, and
>the means by which we pursue those goals. The other theme of course is
>sacrifice, which recurs throughout the show in one form or another.
Interesting. That is similar to what Joel Rosenberg states he writes
about in his books, especially the Guardians of the Flame series
(which, along with B5, I also like a lot).
Not only does he deal with what people are willing to sacrifice and
how far one will go, but he also gets into stating that some things
are worth sacrificing *everything* for. That is why in his fantasy
books (with one exception that wasn't a plot point or a sacrifice at
the time - read the books, because it is too much to go into here
without spoilers) when people die they *stay* dead, or else their
sacrificies would not have had any meaning.
- Chuck
--
"I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect, had intended for us to forgo their use." - Galileo
"I'm an engineer, not a dictionary!" - Me
Michael Haohua Liu
>Mary Melchior <mu...@netcom.com> writes:
>
>>Yes! Ive gotten a number of my friends addicted to the show, but I don't
>>have the first season episodes to show them. I'll buy them as soon as you
>>get them out.
>
>As an avid fan since day one I've had the luxury of having all the episodes
>on tape, and watched them again and again. I recently watched MotFL and
>Coming of Shadows back to back -- TALK ABOUT PARALLEL VISUALS!! From the
>establishing shots on Centauri worlds to Londo's dream to G'Kar's hatred
>of the Centauri, the whole thing has come full circle *as it was meant to*.
Funny thing, I just wrote a 7 page paper for a TV class that I'm taking
about THAT VERY SUBJECT!!!! The purpose was to compare two episodes
of TV either from the same series or different series. I picked Motfl
and Cos because of that very reason, the parallel images. I guess I'm
not the only one who picked up on that. It was one of the easiest and
most enjoyable papers I've ever written.
Mike