"Z'Ha'Dum" as Hugo Nominee? <*Spoilers*>
De Castellvi Jaime M
Major Spoilers for Z'H'D
Minor Spoilers for THotW
Eventually, we are going to have to nominate another episode from Babylon
5 for the upcoming Hugo. "Z'Ha'Dum" seems to me one of the likeliest
candidates so far. But the more I think about it, the more it seems that
all its resonance for those of us who have watched B5 from the word "Go!"
-which is perhaps what makes it so special- might be lost on many who
have not. "Z'Ha'Dum" feels fulfilling to us because it brings to
completion many things, but would it be as powerful, as appreciated, by
anyone who has not seen the other reflections and forms of the symmetry
that it does fulfill?
Take Sheridan, for instance.
He was remembered as "Starkiller" because he destroyed the Minbari
flagship, their largest cruiser -the "Black Star"- by luring it to an
asteroid field booby-trapped with thermo-nuclear devices. On the same
fighting side as the Minbari now, in Z'Ha'Dum he does the complete
reverse. He actually launches the Minbari flagship of the Coalition of
Light -the "White Star"- as a Trojan Horse with two thermo-nuclear
devices to destroy the largest Shadow, and the ship itself in the
process. But many who are unaware of Sheridan's past would miss this
lovely symmetry.
Or the fact that for years it tore him to pieces within to have failed to
say "Good bye" and "I love you" to Anna before she sailed towards her
"death" at Z'Ha'Dum; so that now -after hearing Kosh's warning one more
time- he pulls himself together to do what he has to do regardless
of the cost, but he also makes sure he says these last words to Delenn,
before he sets sail for his own "death" in Z'Ha'Dum.
A similar thing happens with Delenn. From the day Sheridan came in from
the "Agamemnon", we had feared the manner in which his Clytamnestra would
shape her trap, and had also wondered who Cassandra would be and how
would Sheridan disregard her (in this case she is Delenn, since he thinks
her -perhaps rightly- wrong; not Kosh, since Sheridan fully believes him
and expects to die at Z'Ha'Dum). The very second episode with Sheridan
we knew who his Morgana LeFay would be... we shivered as we saw him
caught in his grief, unable to let go and accept her death, and so
freezing her image in the screen of his heart in the perfect way that he
remembered it like art, like a false higher ideal to replace reality
with, making no allowance for the fluidity of life, for the inevitability
of -in this case, massive- change; grieving not as a release, but as an
act of holding on.
After seeing "Wolf" it would appear that Delenn too is holding on,
believing... but from "Z'Ha'Dum" alone, we only see her turn away from the
screen, from the frozen image of what was, in grief, in acceptance of
loss, but also turning away from false images which are no more, and
towards life, painful and empty and grief-stricken as it may seem just
then for her.
And the motif of the fall. As far back as "In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum"
Sheridan had accepted the price and unknowingly -chillingly for us, in
hindsight- prophetized his own fate, quite literally: "Then I die, but I
won't *go down* easy, and I won't *go down* alone." Down he goes, not
easily in a number of ways, not alone literally because he falls with
a piece of Kosh, but also not literally because he takes their biggest
city along with him (only as we find later, in "Wolf", he really has gone
*down*, but *is* not yet down in that sense). But in "The Fall of Night"
he leaps away from an explosion and Kosh saves him. Later, during
"Messages from Earth", Delenn lures him to sleep by saying, "If you fall,
I will be here to catch you." We don't know in "Z'Ha'Dum" how Kosh might
have been there to catch him, to soften his touchdown, but the very fact
that the remains of the Vorlon encourage him to jump implies that Naranek
will be there to do just that (even if those suckers amongst us, myself
included, who figured Sheridan as a goner did not latch onto this right
away).
These are just a few instances of many symmetries brought to completion
-though not necessarily to closure- in "Z'Ha'Dum". But for somebody
unfamiliar with all those prior moments, the episode could not possibly
resonate the way it does for us who do.
Here is the question then. Does "Z'Ha'Dum" stand well enough on its own,
even for people who have not seen enough B5 to appreciate all of its
layers and resonances, to merit a nomination for a Hugo with a
reasonable likelihood of winning? There may be much that is better yet
ahead of us, but for now this is all that we have to work with.
Opinions from anyone reading this who may have discovered B5 only recently
and who therefore may have arrived at "Z'Ha'Dum" relatively cold turkey
would be highly appreciated. Were you also blown away by "Z'Ha'dum" even
if you lacked a fair bit of the background?
Cheers,
Jaime
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> Jaime M. de Castellvi ^ <<
>> 3c...@qlink.queensu.ca ^ 'That is not what I meant at all. <<
>> http://qlink.queensu.ca/~3cjmd ^ That is not it, at all.' (T.S.E.) <<
>>\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\^//////////////////////////////////////<<
>> 'When my uncle saw the note, he tugged out the flag of his <<
>> handkerchief and blew such a hubbub of trumpets that the plates on <<
>> the dresser shook. "It's the same every year," he said. And then he <<
>> looked at me. "But this year it's different..." ' (D.T.) <<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
mail...@aol.com
3c...@qlink.queensu.ca (De Castellvi Jaime M) asks:
<<Here is the question then. Does "Z'Ha'Dum" stand well enough on its
own,
even for people who have not seen enough B5 to appreciate all of its
layers and resonances . . . .
Opinions from anyone reading this who may have discovered B5 only
recently
and who therefore may have arrived at "Z'Ha'Dum" relatively cold turkey
would be highly appreciated. Were you also blown away by "Z'Ha'dum" even
if you lacked a fair bit of the background?>>
I'm pretty much new to B5 - just started watching it last January, so I
guess I just caught the last half of season 3 - and YES I was TOTALLY
blown away by Z'Ha'Dum!
I had no idea that all the things you mentioned in your post had happened.
I only knew Sheridan was the only human to have fought and won against a
Minbari ship. And that's all. The details you mentioned really helped me
understand the episode more fully, but I was still totally awstruck by it.
Thanks for the info.
C. Stanley
Mail...@aol.com
foulk...@acm.org
Blaine S. Gardner
3c...@qlink.queensu.ca (De Castellvi Jaime M) writes:
>Major Spoilers for Z'H'D
>Minor Spoilers for THotW
> Eventually, we are going to have to nominate another episode from Babylon
> 5 for the upcoming Hugo. "Z'Ha'Dum" seems to me one of the likeliest
> candidates so far. But the more I think about it, the more it seems that
> all its resonance for those of us who have watched B5 from the word "Go!"
> -which is perhaps what makes it so special- might be lost on many who
> have not.
For what it's worth, I gave a copy of Shadow Dancing and Z'Ha'Dum to a
couple of friends who've never seen B-5 before. After they watched it,
they were completely hooked, and we spent a couple of hours talking about
it. (Now I've got to figure out which past episodes to show them to bring
them up to speed. :-)
Yes, it means more if you've followed the whole three years, but Z'Ha'Dum
has plenty of impact on its own.
--
Blaine Gardner bla...@xmission.com DoD#46 UB#2 FJ1200 XR600R LT250R
<*>
Jeffrey A. Morris
> Eventually, we are going to have to nominate another episode from Babylon
> 5 for the upcoming Hugo. "Z'Ha'Dum" seems to me one of the likeliest
> candidates so far. But the more I think about it, the more it seems that
> all its resonance for those of us who have watched B5 from the word "Go!"
> -which is perhaps what makes it so special- might be lost on many who
> have not.
I think Severed Dreams would also be an excellent choice. The rebellion
against a totalitarian Earthgov is a powerfull backdrop to the episode.
Delenn facing down and finally disolving the the Grey Council is one of
the high points in the season. And the story is structured very well.
Just when things seem hopeless, Delenn comes to the rescue. I think
either SD or Z'ha'dum would blow away the competition.
Patrick Carey
Jeffrey A. Morris wrote:
> I think Severed Dreams would also be an excellent choice. The rebellion
> against a totalitarian Earthgov is a powerfull backdrop to the episode.
> Delenn facing down and finally disolving the the Grey Council is one of
> the high points in the season. And the story is structured very well.
> Just when things seem hopeless, Delenn comes to the rescue. I think
> either SD or Z'ha'dum would blow away the competition.
I'm not sure about that. Don't get me wrong, Severed Dreams is my
favorite episode, but much of its power lies in how well JMS built up to
it over the course of one and half seasons.
Patrick
Graham Perks
Jeffrey A. Morris wrote:
>
> > Eventually, we are going to have to nominate another episode from Babylon
> > 5 for the upcoming Hugo. "Z'Ha'Dum" seems to me one of the likeliest
> > candidates so far. But the more I think about it, the more it seems that
> > all its resonance for those of us who have watched B5 from the word "Go!"
> > -which is perhaps what makes it so special- might be lost on many who
> > have not.
>
> against a totalitarian Earthgov is a powerfull backdrop to the episode.
> Delenn facing down and finally disolving the the Grey Council is one of
> the high points in the season. And the story is structured very well.
> Just when things seem hopeless, Delenn comes to the rescue. I think
> either SD or Z'ha'dum would blow away the competition.
Personally my vote definitely goes to Severed Dreams. It's the episode
I first watched
since the pilot. It blew me away. Z'Ha'Dum kind of washes over me, and
only gets going
at the end for some reason. I find Severed Dreams is a good one to get
ladies hooked too,
mainly because of Delenn's strong role in it (her speech at the end gets
just about
everybody :)
Christopher L Tate
De Castellvi Jaime M (3c...@qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
:
: Eventually, we are going to have to nominate another episode from Babylon
: 5 for the upcoming Hugo. "Z'Ha'Dum" seems to me one of the likeliest
: candidates so far. But the more I think about it, the more it seems that
: all its resonance for those of us who have watched B5 from the word "Go!"
: -which is perhaps what makes it so special- might be lost on many who
: have not. "Z'Ha'Dum" feels fulfilling to us because it brings to
: completion many things, but would it be as powerful, as appreciated, by
: anyone who has not seen the other reflections and forms of the symmetry
: that it does fulfill?
: [spoilers snipped]
:
: Here is the question then. Does "Z'Ha'Dum" stand well enough on its own,
: even for people who have not seen enough B5 to appreciate all of its
: layers and resonances, to merit a nomination for a Hugo with a
: reasonable likelihood of winning? There may be much that is better yet
: ahead of us, but for now this is all that we have to work with.
A friend of mine, David James, raised a *very* intriguing point about
the World Science Fiction Award (aka the Hugo). What's the award for?
"Best Dramatic Presentation." What's a "Dramatic Presentation?" It's
(arguably) a live drama written by a single author.
JMS wrote *all* of Bab5's Season Three. It's entirely possible that
the season *as a whole* is eligible for the Hugo award. Consider that -
not just one episode, but the entire season as a single "work." The
issue hasn't come up before because no dramatic series in the running
has ever been entirely authored by one person over the course of a
whole season.
I need to tap some of my WorldCon contacts; a rules interpretation here
is going to be *very* important, I think....
--
Christopher Tate (Avara: Magaera) <*> ct...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~ctate/ <*> Finger for PGP public key
"Your storm, Thlayli-rah. Use it."
ck...@zipcon.net
: Jeffrey A. Morris wrote:
:
: > I think Severed Dreams would also be an excellent choice. The rebellion
: > against a totalitarian Earthgov is a powerfull backdrop to the episode.
: > Delenn facing down and finally disolving the the Grey Council is one of
: > the high points in the season. And the story is structured very well.
: > Just when things seem hopeless, Delenn comes to the rescue. I think
: > either SD or Z'ha'dum would blow away the competition.
Well, if possible to be nominated for this year, I think "Whatever
Happened..." is right up there too. A friend of ours who knew nothing
about the story at all, who had only half-seen a couple of episodes here
or there, was absolutely hooked after last night and has started borrowing
my first season eps. =)
In terms of story structure, directing (!!!), acting, sense of
humor, mythic/epic elements... just fan-fraggin-tastic. Even better than
SD or Z'ha'dum, actually; those two eps are marvelous for the fan, advance
the story significantly, etc. but they basically get their strength from
building up to one powerful 4th act. "Whatever Happened..." is engrossing
right from the beginning and switches between a variety of intense and
complex situations.
--
Chris Keroack
ck...@zipcon.net
Francis A Uy
Christopher L Tate <ct...@world.std.com> wrote:
>the World Science Fiction Award (aka the Hugo). What's the award for?
>"Best Dramatic Presentation." What's a "Dramatic Presentation?" It's
>(arguably) a live drama written by a single author.
>JMS wrote *all* of Bab5's Season Three. [...] The issue hasn't
>come up before because no dramatic series in the running has ever
>been entirely authored by one person over the course of a whole season.
JMS has been quoted (see the Lurker's Guide for Z'ha'dum) as being
open to the possiblity of nominating the whole season for the Hugo.
I think it's a great idea, although the audacity and controversy of it
might cost it votes.
-F
C J Silverio
In article <E0x3C...@world.std.com>, ct...@world.std.com (Christopher L Tate) wrote:
| De Castellvi Jaime M (3c...@qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
| :
| : 5 for the upcoming Hugo. "Z'Ha'Dum" seems to me one of the likeliest
| : candidates so far. But the more I think about it, the more it seems that
| : all its resonance for those of us who have watched B5 from the word "Go!"
| : -which is perhaps what makes it so special- might be lost on many who
| : have not. "Z'Ha'Dum" feels fulfilling to us because it brings to
| : completion many things, but would it be as powerful, as appreciated, by
| : anyone who has not seen the other reflections and forms of the symmetry
| : that it does fulfill?
| : [spoilers snipped]
| : Here is the question then. Does "Z'Ha'Dum" stand well enough on its own,
| : even for people who have not seen enough B5 to appreciate all of its
| : layers and resonances, to merit a nomination for a Hugo with a
| : reasonable likelihood of winning?
| A friend of mine, David James, raised a *very* intriguing point about
| the World Science Fiction Award (aka the Hugo). What's the award for?
| "Best Dramatic Presentation." What's a "Dramatic Presentation?" It's
| (arguably) a live drama written by a single author.
|
| JMS wrote *all* of Bab5's Season Three. It's entirely possible that
| the season *as a whole* is eligible for the Hugo award. [...]
Season 3: it was the best of B5; it was the worst of B5.
It had "Severed Dreams" and "Z'ha'dum", and it had "Exogenesis",
"Sic Transit Vir", and "Gray 17 is Missing". "Gray 17" ranks
right up there with "TKO" and "The War Prayer" for me, and
"STV" is not far behind.
I dunno. The series as a whole is JMS's huge accomplishment,
and we'll all have to do something to make sure he gets
recognized for it at the end. But I dunno about making the
whole season the Hugo nominee.
Let's consider "Severed Dreams". It's self-contained in a way that
"Z'ha'dum" isn't, to answer Jaime's question. Part of the joy
of "Z'ha'dum" was hearing Sheridan and Delenn say those words to
each other after months and months of knowing they'd work up
their courage to say it eventually. Or having a big pile of
dread already worked up inside about what would happen to Sheridan
at Z'ha'dum. Or knowing already what Kosh said and being unsure
because you've just figured out that Kosh is inside Sheridan
after all.
"Severed Dreams" also depends on what happened before, but it
explains itself pretty well. It's got a coherent battle sequence
with an amazing number of ships zipping around. It's got humans
killing humans. It's also got that tight scripting that Z has,
nothing wasted, the pace totally controlled, the cycles of
tension and release very satisfying.
Watch 'em both again, I'd say, and see what you think about
which one stands alone. I'm leaning toward "Severed Dreams".
---
C J Silverio ce...@spies.com <http://www.spies.com/~ceej/>
Shouldn't your Macintosh be Microsoft-free? Mine is.
De Castellvi Jaime M
C J Silverio (ce...@spies.com) wrote:
: Watch 'em both again, I'd say, and see what you think about
: which one stands alone. I'm leaning toward "Severed Dreams".
It's a hard choice, I agree. On the one hand, there are all those things
you mention about "Severed Dreams", but the latter episode was also very
much one of resolution, both of the two preceding episodes and of things
which had been set up as early as "Chrysalis".
In addition to the follow-ups in the group, I also got some emails from
people who told me stories about either themselves, or friends, SOs and
relatives who had watched "Z'Ha'Dum" cold-turkey and had been blown away.
It was awfully nice to hear, but then again, the same thing had happened
when "Severed Dreams" came out. So, it is hard to tell.
Personally, I loved "Severed Dreams", but I now feel greater personal
affinity to "Z'Ha'Dum" for some reason.
But I'm also a bit uneasy about the "nominate-the-entire-third-season"
project. I rather liked "Exogenesis", but as you say there were some eps
which were not quite there. Then again, it has never been done before and
that might be a good reason to do it. We need to have more discussion
on that. For now, I feel more comfortable looking for a single ep that
can stand in the league of "The Coming of Shadows", or higher.
Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
3c...@qlink.queensu.ca (De Castellvi Jaime M) gave us these sage
words:
>C J Silverio (ce...@spies.com) wrote:
>: Watch 'em both again, I'd say, and see what you think about
>: which one stands alone. I'm leaning toward "Severed Dreams".
>It's a hard choice, I agree. On the one hand, there are all those things
>you mention about "Severed Dreams", but the latter episode was also very
>much one of resolution, both of the two preceding episodes and of things
>which had been set up as early as "Chrysalis".
>In addition to the follow-ups in the group, I also got some emails from
>people who told me stories about either themselves, or friends, SOs and
>relatives who had watched "Z'Ha'Dum" cold-turkey and had been blown away.
>It was awfully nice to hear, but then again, the same thing had happened
>when "Severed Dreams" came out. So, it is hard to tell.
>Personally, I loved "Severed Dreams", but I now feel greater personal
>affinity to "Z'Ha'Dum" for some reason.
>But I'm also a bit uneasy about the "nominate-the-entire-third-season"
>project. I rather liked "Exogenesis", but as you say there were some eps
>which were not quite there. Then again, it has never been done before and
>that might be a good reason to do it. We need to have more discussion
>on that. For now, I feel more comfortable looking for a single ep that
>can stand in the league of "The Coming of Shadows", or higher.
As I too have stated, something needs to be done about the Hugos. I
have not seen or heard about (I'll admit I haven't seen everything
that came out this summer) any SF Movie (or TV show) that has done
what JMS did with B5 this year (third season and the start of fourth
season). It is unprecedented, and fantastic. I remain blown away.
Third season did have some poorly written episodes. Some novels have
some really bad parts in an otherwise great book. All of third Season,
best of Third Season? It is a good question.
I hope the LoneStarCon people figure out what they want to do about
Third Season. If it is approved, I'll probably nominate it and
Z'ha'Dum because of what it means to the series. Come to think of it,
I'll probably have nothing but B-5 on my "Dramatic Presentation" list
(gives me five, hmmm).
Anypath, I agree we should continue to chew this out in the newsgroup,
and then (stuff the ballot box) nominate our favorites, knowing that
something from B-5 will end up on the final ballot, and probably win.
Hey JMS what are you going to do when all five nominations are a B-5
episode? ;-)
Auntie M
************************************************************************
* Lisa Deutsch Harrigan * "Any excuse for a con party." *
* li...@harrigan.org * "The easy to remember address." *
* aunt...@harrigan.org * "Definitely not in Kansas." *
* *
* I don't need no stinking disclaimer. This is my domaine, and I can *
* say what ever I want. Right, dear? *
* *
************************************************************************
Charles J Walther
Lisa Deutsch Harrigan (li...@harrigan.org) wrote:
: 3c...@qlink.queensu.ca (De Castellvi Jaime M) gave us these sage
: words:
I would like to propose War Without End. I think it was the best written
episdoe of the year, and did more to forward the story and show the
characters than anything else I have seen.
: best of Third Season? It is a good question.
: I hope the LoneStarCon people figure out what they want to do about
: Third Season. If it is approved, I'll probably nominate it and
: Z'ha'Dum because of what it means to the series. Come to think of it,
: I'll probably have nothing but B-5 on my "Dramatic Presentation" list
: (gives me five, hmmm).
: Anypath, I agree we should continue to chew this out in the newsgroup,
: and then (stuff the ballot box) nominate our favorites, knowing that
: something from B-5 will end up on the final ballot, and probably win.
: Hey JMS what are you going to do when all five nominations are a B-5
: episode? ;-)
Have a Cow, I guess. This year, B-5 is going up against some good movie
competition. Last year we had almost nil. When you consider that ID4 was
the highest grossing movie of the year (I think) and First Contact was
actually watchable, it won't be as easy to repeat.
: Auntie M
: ************************************************************************
: * Lisa Deutsch Harrigan * "Any excuse for a con party." *
: * li...@harrigan.org * "The easy to remember address." *
: * aunt...@harrigan.org * "Definitely not in Kansas." *
: * *
: * I don't need no stinking disclaimer. This is my domaine, and I can *
: * say what ever I want. Right, dear? *
: * *
: ************************************************************************
The trick will be how many people with Hugo moninating ballots will
agreewith me.
--
Send Replies to the Following
Charles J. Walther
a024...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Dennis Virzi
>I hope the LoneStarCon people figure out what they want to do about
>Third Season. If it is approved, I'll probably nominate it and
>Z'ha'Dum because of what it means to the series. Come to think of it,
>I'll probably have nothing but B-5 on my "Dramatic Presentation" list
>(gives me five, hmmm).
>
>
>Auntie M
>
Nominate single episodes.
Dennis Virzi
Vice Chair Administration
Lonestarcon 2
Troy-Heagy
>Nominate single episodes.
How come we can't nominate an entire season? It's written by a single author,
J. Michael Straczynski, and it constitutes a single continuous story called
"Point of No Return." So, why is it not acceptable?
Dennis Virzi
>How come we can't nominate an entire season? It's written by a single
author,
>J. Michael Straczynski, and it constitutes a single continuous story called
>"Point of No Return." So, why is it not acceptable?
>
>
The short answer is that this is not in the spirit or intent of that
Hugo category.
The long answer is a debate over what constitutes a _real_ continuous
story.
I submit that Stephen Kings aborted series from a few years ago would
better fit the argument. (GOLDEN YEARS, I think was the title.)
Just because B5 pays attention to "what has gone before" (or as someone
else here stated: "Shit stays happened.") doesn't not grant B5 automatic
single-narrative status.
I also have no trouble with giving the completed B5 series a special
Hugo (or committee award) once its run is finished, whould setiment dictate.
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Lisa Deutsch Harrigan wrote:
(Hi, Lisa. Long time no.)
> As I too have stated, something needs to be done about the Hugos.
Euthanasia?
> I
> have not seen or heard about (I'll admit I haven't seen everything
> that came out this summer) any SF Movie (or TV show) that has done
> what JMS did with B5 this year (third season and the start of fourth
> season).
If you do, let Warner's lawyers know. That would be plagiarism.
The question isn't whether anyone did the same thing, the question
is whether anyone else did anything worthy of note. See below.
> Third season did have some poorly written episodes. Some novels have
> some really bad parts in an otherwise great book. All of third Season,
> best of Third Season? It is a good question.
It isn't a question at all at the moment. I've had a long chat with
many-time Hugo administrator David Bratman, and he's convinced me
(against my will) that an entire season of B5 is not available for
a Hugo, *AND SHOULD NOT BE*. It might be a good thing to have a
second category of Dramatic Presentation Hugo; but it's not clear
what that category would be. Best TV series? Maybe; but then we
have to wonder why individual eps of a series have to compete against
feature films. "Best arc-oriented series?" Well, maybe, but how
many *are* there? B5, maybe X-FILES, *maaaaaybe* SA&B. What else?
DOCTOR WHO? RED DWARF not that they're still making either of those)?
> Anypath, I agree we should continue to chew this out in the newsgroup,
> and then (stuff the ballot box) nominate our favorites, knowing that
> something from B-5 will end up on the final ballot, and probably win.
H'mmmm. There's a pretty good chance it will end up on the final
ballot, though I wonder whether there will be enough agreement as
to what eps to put. But "probably win"? I don't want to be nasty
about this, but I'd say that INDEPENDENCE DAY is all but a shoo-in.
Keep in mind who votes for the Hugo.
> Hey JMS what are you going to do when all five nominations are a B-5
> episode? ;-)
I imagine he'll probably get busy writing season 5.
--Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom.
Though it cost you all you have, get understanding.
--Proverbs 4:7 (RSV)
I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it.
-- Thomas a Kempis
What will you do if we let you go home,
and the plastic's all melted, and so is the chrome?
Who are the Brain Police?
-- Frank Zappa
David DeRubeis
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
>
>
> H'mmmm. There's a pretty good chance it will end up on the final
> ballot, though I wonder whether there will be enough agreement as
> to what eps to put. But "probably win"? I don't want to be nasty
> about this, but I'd say that INDEPENDENCE DAY is all but a shoo-in.
> Keep in mind who votes for the Hugo.
>
Why would you say this? Keeping in mind who votes for the Hugo
(primarily SF readers), ID doesn't stand a chance. It's all flash and
not plot. I'll gaurantee here that a B5 episode will win.
David
Mark C Mackinnon
Distribution:
David DeRubeis (deru...@ligand.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu) wrote:
: Why would you say this? Keeping in mind who votes for the Hugo
: (primarily SF readers), ID doesn't stand a chance. It's all flash and
: not plot. I'll gaurantee here that a B5 episode will win.
Keep in mind, however, that Jurasik Park beat "The Gathering" for
a Hugo. Granted, some people don't think that TG was all that great, but
for an SF presentation, it beat the pants off JP.
As much as I love B5, I'd have to give it to ID4 as well. ID4 is
better than JP, and given the past record...
--
Mark MacKinnon, University of Guelph
AMBERCON NORTH '97 Organizer
September 19-21, 1997
Embassy Suites Toronto/Markham
Bryan Morton
"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <djd...@PacBell.COM> wrote:
>What else?
>DOCTOR WHO? RED DWARF not that they're still making either of those)?
Well, Doctor Who was (apparently) finally killed off by the BBC this
week (I for one won't miss it), but Red Dwarf is very much alive and
kicking - 2 new series have been made, the first of which will start
airing in the UK in January....
Just in case anyone's interested <g>...
______________________________________________________________________________
BMort...@aol.com Bryan Morton, Bangor, Northern Ireland
bry...@crthoris.demon.co.uk http://www.crthoris.demon.co.uk/
bry...@geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/4383/
10645...@compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/bryanm/
David DeRubeis
Mark C Mackinnon wrote:
>
>
> Keep in mind, however, that Jurasik Park beat "The Gathering" for
> a Hugo. Granted, some people don't think that TG was all that great, but
> for an SF presentation, it beat the pants off JP.
>
If "The Gathering" is good, it's mostly in retrospect. When I first saw is, I was
quite unimpressed. It's plot was mainly just a standard SF crime mystery anyway.
There was no sense that it was anything special, and it was not a well known show at
the time. The best season 2, 3, or 4 episodes are orders of magnitude better thatn
"The Gathering".
"Jurasic Park", while riddled with hokey psuedo-science, was certainly more
entertaining than "The Gathering". If nothing else, it did quite a good job in its
presentation of largely realistic Dinosaurs, even if the premise of how they got
there was contrived and very unhlikely (if you want genetic engineering technology on
that scale, you should set your story a couple of hundred years in the future).
Remember, TCoS beat out Apollo 13, a movie which has much more repect in SF circles
than "Independence Day", and which was also a big hit. It was also against the
wildly successful "Toy Story". Popularity with the general public does not mean a
Hugo. I just do not think that there is a big ID following in the literary SF fan
community (at least not amoung any of those I'm in contact with).
David
ck...@zipcon.net
Had to jump in here, even though this has nothing to do with the original
line...
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes (djd...@PacBell.COM) wrote:
: DOCTOR WHO? RED DWARF not that they're still making either of those)?
That's a hearty ***bzzt!!*** on that second one, happily.
The 7th season of Red Dwarf airs from January to February of next year
(yes, that's 3 weeks away) in Britain. 8 episodes instead of the usual
six, Chris Barrie is *indeed* playing Rimmer again, Craig Charles *is*
still in the series despite the rape charges for which he was completely
acquitted earlier this year, and they're already planning work on an 8th
series for 1998 and possibly a movie.
Figured many sf/B5 fans crossover into being smegheads too; we now return
you to your regularly scheduled pining away for new B5.
Chris
--
Chris Keroack <*> That which does not kill me
ck...@zipcon.net <*> was probably firing a warning shot
rodent
Red Dwarf Actors... Two Words.... CAMEO CAMEO CAMEO!!!
rodent
"Hey, give me a break, English is my second language. I was born in
America, I speak American. They tried to teach me Engish in school,
but I never got the hang of it" :)
-Me
Patrick M. Berry
> Red Dwarf Actors... Two Words.... CAMEO CAMEO CAMEO!!!
That's three words. Or one, if you don't count repetitions. :)
Mark C Mackinnon
David DeRubeis (deru...@ligand.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu) wrote:
: If "The Gathering" is good, it's mostly in retrospect. When I first saw is,
: I was quite unimpressed. It's plot was mainly just a standard SF crime
: mystery anyway. There was no sense that it was anything special, and it
: was not a well known show at the time. The best season 2, 3, or 4
: episodes are orders of magnitude better thatn : "The Gathering".
Well, to each their own. When I first saw that Gathering, I was
completely blown away. Not so much for *exactly* what it was, but for
the potential it had. It just seemed to be the first time on TV that SF
was handled "right". It had me hooked, and waiting a year before
"Midnight" was torture.
: Remember, TCoS beat out Apollo 13, a movie which has much more repect in SF
: circles than "Independence Day", and which was also a big hit. It was
: also against the wildly successful "Toy Story". Popularity with the
: general public does not mean a Hugo. I just do not think that there is
: a big ID following in the literary SF fan community (at least not
: amoung any of those I'm in contact with).
True, beating Apollo was impressive, and no...popularity doesn't
mean a Hugo. However, I think that ID4 was a much better "dramatic
presentation" than JP (though I'm sure many would disagree), and JP still
beat B5. I don't think that JP had a big lit SF fan following either,
and if it did then I'm surprised.
In short, ID4 is the only competition B5 has for the Hugo. It's
*very* strong competion, but if B5 pulls off a win, then that will be a
far bigger victory than TCoS winning. The only bigger victory would be
if B5 beat the news Star Wars movies when they come out. Like that's likely!
My fingers are crossed for B5 taking it for several more years in
a row.
Chuck Fullerton
ID4 getting the Hugo over "Z'Ha'Dum". (smacks forehead,
incredulous look)
Now that WOULD be a crime!!!!!!
-Chuck
rodent
Does that make it "The One" who are three :)
rodent
"I'll put you down for two cushons by the wine vat."
(the always quotable) Lord Julius -"Cerebus"
Dennis Virzi
In article <58lfrd$q...@camel1.mindspring.com>,
Least we forget, STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT is also elligible.
BTW, the nominating ballot will be released shortly.
ABC
<snipped post-read ref>
One episode is not enough. As I understand the Hugo rules for dramatic
presentation an entire series can not be nominated UNLESS IT IS A UNIT
IN ITSELF. JMS has been telling us a story that has lasted for years,
split up into 22 parts a year, but it is all ONE story. Instead of on
episode we should give the Hugo to Babylon 5 as a whole. That's how I'm
voting. -A
David Goldfarb
ABC <sc...@mosquitonet.com> wrote:
)One episode is not enough. As I understand the Hugo rules for dramatic
)presentation an entire series can not be nominated UNLESS IT IS A UNIT
)IN ITSELF. JMS has been telling us a story that has lasted for years,
)split up into 22 parts a year, but it is all ONE story. Instead of on
)episode we should give the Hugo to Babylon 5 as a whole. That's how I'm
)voting. -A
You're too early for that. As has been noted elsewhere, a
serial unit is eligible for the year that the *last* installment appears.
Assuming that B5 goes for all five years, that means that it won't
be eligible as a whole until 1999.
David Goldfarb <*>|
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |"THEY ZONKED ME WITH ELECTRONIC SHOCK WAVES,
aste...@slip.net | I TELL YOU!!!"
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- _Prez_ #2
Jiraad
My own choices as a nominee I don't think are eleigible yet, but I admit
I'm not up on Hugo rules:
Hour of the Wolf
Whatever Happened to Mister Garibaldi deserves it if only for the final
shots.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are not ready.
Craige K. Howlett
Since I don't have a way of contacting you directly, I will drop this
off in these newsgroups and hope it gets to you.
I'm not here to... I believe the word is 'Troll' or looking for a
'Flame' exchanges. I'm here to deliver both Praise and Bitch...
1. I understand that you get several hundred emails daily. Are you
aware that your ISP can 'filter' your email and drop certain email
address that you don't want to hear from or are having a problems with.
2. Jerry 'Garibaldi' Doyle (sp) recently stated in an interview that he
was looking to leave mid season this year (season four). Whether the
writer of the article (the interviewer) made it look like Doyle (sp) was
unhappy or if Mr. Doyle real is unhappy, it came across that way. He
seems to blame the writing (you in this case) for not developing his
character more. To add fuel to the fire, the rumor mill has been
grinding out that Bester will be reappearing soon and Doyle's character
will be leaving on the same show. How do you as the semi-sole writer of
the series respond to an actor who believes that his abilities are not
being fully used.
3. If WB in the US wouldn't sell the tapes to us and the UK is selling
them. Would it be possible to have a studio (anyone who has the
equipment) over here set up to buy the tapes from the UK (which is done
on PAL) and pull them off and record them back on to VHS standard
without violating the copyright laws?
4. I heard a lot of praise for your writing talents for doing four plus
years of a series and producing it too. Believe me when I say that I've
been around since you aired the pilot and have only managed to miss four
ep's, without any recorder to help. Yeah, I don't have a social life
either. A lot of people are under the misconception that you are the
first to have written these many eps' (four seasons worth) and have done
the producing of it too, in a SF series. I'm not exactly sure if you
have told the others about the one who came before you, that you are
doing the same thing that someone else did 30 plus years ago.
For those of you who weren't aware of it, let me refresh you. In the
50's, we in SF who were watching TV on a regular basis, were stuck with
Commander Cody type series. Starting in the very early 60's, a young
talented writer came to Hollywood from New York. His past credits
included writing for Playhouse 90. He wrote a weekly SF TV series that
ran over five years and he produced and wrote over 80+ percent of the
scripts. He had only a half hour to create believable characters, then
develop them, generate a story line, get us interested in it, get his
point across and finish it up with a thought provoking ending. Anyone
alive during those days will always remember what this writer did,
because he was the first one to do it. Every week he gave us story
lines in the SF realm without having space ships and ray guns in them.
We were left thinking about our world around us and how we see the
people who live in it. He was the pioneer and trail brazier who came
before Arthur and Stanley did 2001, before Gene did Star Trek and before
Lost in Space was a concept. His trademark cigarette was always in his
hand. His mono tone voice spoke to us without ever attempting to insult
our intelligence. Each week he would introduce the episode and at the
conclusion of it, he left us with his personal thought about what you
had just seen. He did all of this without 'CGI' or any other special
effects, they were made with crude (by our standards today) make up and
done all in black and white. He did it by give us powerful scripts with
real punch behind it. It require the viewer to think about what was
going on and who was doing what to whom. Many of the actors were
unknown in that day and age, many have gone on to become the heavy
hitters of Hollywood. They gave us their best performance because they
believed in this writer and his craft.
Rod Sterling and the Twilight Zone will be mark that few writers and
even few producers will ever be able to hit.
You are one of those who has achieved this mark and that's worth noting
in anyones books. But remember what Mr. Sterling own story conjurs up
with respect to being in Hollywood. The longer you are there, the
longer the beast has to sink its fangs into you. The money is the bait
the beast uses to lure you into its trap and the longer you take it, the
more it has you hooked, the more you will be forced to write their way
and not yours. Fear the beast and don't give in to it.
Craige...
Craige K. Howlett
Claudia Marie
"Craige K. Howlett" <cra...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>4. I heard a lot of praise for your writing talents for doing four plus
>years of a series and producing it too. Believe me when I say that I've
>been around since you aired the pilot and have only managed to miss four
>ep's, without any recorder to help. Yeah, I don't have a social life
>either. A lot of people are under the misconception that you are the
>first to have written these many eps' (four seasons worth) and have done
>the producing of it too, in a SF series.
The claim was actually for consecutive episodes. Starting with the
end of season 2, including all of season 3, and continuing into
season 4. Was 39 last I heard, though I expect it's a few more, now.
I'm not sure if it was specifically for hour dramas or not.
At any rate, as the Twilight Zone episode guide at this Sci-Fi Channel
URL shows, Serling didn't write every episode.
URL: http://www.scifi.com/twizone/
They say that he wrote 92 of 156 Twilight Zone episodes. A wonderful
accomplishment--the work speaks for itself. It's just not the
record that JMS was talking about.
Claudia
--
I worry about anyone under eighteen who isn't
a cynic -- and anyone over eighteen who is.
SGWM
This post contains possible spoilers for mid-season 4 and thereafter.
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0
On 17 Dec 1996 16:36:55 -0500, in rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
you wrote:
>2. Jerry 'Garibaldi' Doyle (sp) recently stated in an interview that he
>was looking to leave mid season this year (season four). Whether the
>writer of the article (the interviewer) made it look like Doyle (sp) was
>unhappy or if Mr. Doyle real is unhappy, it came across that way. He
>seems to blame the writing (you in this case) for not developing his
>character more. To add fuel to the fire, the rumor mill has been
>grinding out that Bester will be reappearing soon and Doyle's character
>will be leaving on the same show. How do you as the semi-sole writer of
>the series respond to an actor who believes that his abilities are not
>being fully used.
In August UK breakfast TV show "The Big Breakfast" featured an
interview with Jerry and his wife, one Andrea Thomson, better known to
all as Talia Winters. Andrea said she would be appearing in the new
season. Now, at the time, I didn't know this was a two year old
recycled interview, so I mailed JMS to ask if it was true. He set me
straight and made some comment about Jerry, that I misunderstood, so I
asked him "does that mean Jerry is leaving as well?". JMS replied
"Jerry ain't going anywhere." I don;t think it can be said any more
clearly.
Add to that the following, dug up from a post from JMS in 1993 (This
can also be found buried in the Lurker's Guide. ). I think it clearly
indicates what we can expect to happen to Mr G mid-season:
Spoiler for rest of season 4 (and 5)
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5
Subject: The B5 Arc -- from JMS 1993
From: Rae Augenstein <ra...@emmanuel.johnson-city.tn.us>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 08:55:10 -0800
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Overview of the 5-year plan
from J. Michael Straczynski, creator, writer and producer
copyright 1993
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We'll find that most every major character is running to, or away from
something in their hearts, or their pasts, or their careers.
Garibaldi's checkered past will catch up with him in a way that will
affect his role and make him a very different character for as much as
a full season, and have lasting effects thereafter.
(* SGWM : and if you doubt this post's accuracy over three years on
check this : *)
You'll find out what happened to Babylon 4, and it will call into
question what is real, what is not, and the ending of that episode is
one that you have not seen before on television.
--
Though much is taken, much abides; and though
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are-
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Alfred, Lord Tennyson
SGWM
On 17 Dec 1996 16:36:55 -0500, in rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
you wrote:
>3. If WB in the US wouldn't sell the tapes to us and the UK is selling
>them. Would it be possible to have a studio (anyone who has the
>equipment) over here set up to buy the tapes from the UK (which is done
>on PAL) and pull them off and record them back on to VHS standard
>without violating the copyright laws?
Technically this is a violation of international copyright and
distribution laws because the tapes are only licensed for sale in the
UK. This is because some party in the UK has bought the rights to
distribute the show on VHS over here. They do not have the rights to
distribute to any other market other than those they have purchased.
Seems silly but hey, its the law, what do you expect? :o) IMO nobody
would get upset at importing tapes for personal use. Mass copying
however would be stomped on, obviously.
Claudia Marie
Lor...@Maitreya.Demon.Co.UK (SGWM) writes:
>On 17 Dec 1996 16:36:55 -0500, in rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
>you wrote:
>>3. If WB in the US wouldn't sell the tapes to us and the UK is selling
>>them. Would it be possible to have a studio (anyone who has the
>>equipment) over here set up to buy the tapes from the UK (which is done
>>on PAL) and pull them off and record them back on to VHS standard
>>without violating the copyright laws?
>Technically this is a violation of international copyright and
>distribution laws because the tapes are only licensed for sale in the
>UK. This is because some party in the UK has bought the rights to
>distribute the show on VHS over here. They do not have the rights to
Hm. You sure? JMS has been asked about outfits that buy the PAL
tape, convert it, and sell you both the PAL original and the NTSC
copy. Last I heard, he said they were perfectly legal.
Miche
In article <32B705...@ix.netcom.com>
"Craige K. Howlett" <cra...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> 3. If WB in the US wouldn't sell the tapes to us and the UK is selling
> them. Would it be possible to have a studio (anyone who has the
> equipment) over here set up to buy the tapes from the UK (which is done
> on PAL) and pull them off and record them back on to VHS standard
> without violating the copyright laws?
The UK tapes are also on VHS. The system used in the United States is
called NTSC. This is the standard for the US. It is the same on VHS
and Beta. PAL is the standard in the UK, Australia, New Zealand and a
few other places. It, too, is the same on VHS and Beta. To recap:
NTSC is *not* the same as VHS.
Miche
------------
IMPORTANT:
I will be OFFLINE from 21 Dec to 6 Jan. <*>
Mail to me will BOUNCE during that period.
michelle...@stonebow.otago.ac.nz
What I post is my opinion only.
In order to achieve balance, first you need two sides.
Christopher T. Hanlon
On Earth Date 17 Dec 1996 16:37:02 -0500, the Minbari soul occupying
Craige K. Howlett postulated:
>Lost in Space was a concept. His trademark cigarette was always in his
>hand. His mono tone voice spoke to us without ever attempting to insult
>our intelligence. Each week he would introduce the episode and at the
>conclusion of it, he left us with his personal thought about what you
>had just seen. He did all of this without 'CGI' or any other special
>effects, they were made with crude (by our standards today) make up and
>done all in black and white. He did it by give us powerful scripts with
>real punch behind it. It require the viewer to think about what was
>going on and who was doing what to whom. Many of the actors were
>unknown in that day and age, many have gone on to become the heavy
>hitters of Hollywood. They gave us their best performance because they
>believed in this writer and his craft.
>Rod Sterling and the Twilight Zone will be mark that few writers and
>even few producers will ever be able to hit.
>You are one of those who has achieved this mark and that's worth noting
>in anyones books. But remember what Mr. Sterling own story conjurs up
>with respect to being in Hollywood. The longer you are there, the
>longer the beast has to sink its fangs into you. The money is the bait
>the beast uses to lure you into its trap and the longer you take it, the
>more it has you hooked, the more you will be forced to write their way
>and not yours. Fear the beast and don't give in to it.
Oh, boy...have you let yourself open for it...JMS is a major fan of
Serling...and has mentioned that *numerous* times. :-)
_____________________________
Christopher T. Hanlon
cha...@mergetel.com
http://www.mergetel.com/~chanlon
Jms at B5
And this really isn't about setting records, that ain't the point, only a
byproduct. The emphasis has to be quality; quantity means nothing if it's
a lot of bad TV.
(If one chooses to really quibble, 92 TZs are mainly half-hours, so you're
looking at about 50 hours, and the number of jms B5's have already
exceeded that number. But again, this is really a rather silly
discussion.)
jms
SGWM
On 18 Dec 1996 20:50:42 -0500, cma...@laraby.tiac.net (Claudia Marie )
wrote:
>Lor...@Maitreya.Demon.Co.UK (SGWM) writes:
>>On 17 Dec 1996 16:36:55 -0500, in rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
>>someone else asked:
>>>3. If WB in the US wouldn't sell the tapes to us and the UK is selling
>>>them. Would it be possible to have a studio (anyone who has the
>>>equipment) over here set up to buy the tapes from the UK
>>Technically this is a violation of international copyright and
>>distribution laws because the tapes are only licensed for sale in the
>>UK. This is because some party in the UK has bought the rights to
>>distribute the show on VHS over here. They do not have the rights to
>Hm. You sure? JMS has been asked about outfits that buy the PAL
>tape, convert it, and sell you both the PAL original and the NTSC
>copy. Last I heard, he said they were perfectly legal.
I'm Absolutely sure. The distribution rights are the real issue. I've
spoken on alt.video.laserdisc with a fellow who works for Pioneer
Laserdisk (UK) Ltd, James Willis, and he gets upset that people like
myself import NTSC disks from the US as it's a violation of their
rights, that they have paid for, to distribute that product within the
UK. Of course, my answer is that in a market economy the customer will
decide what and what does not go.
Who knows, if enough people in the US start importing PAL tapes
someone will see that they can make a packet of money distributing
tapes over there officially? It might make Warner Bros sit up and take
notice if a lot of people wrote to them asking if they could import
tapes rather than the current question always asked - will they be
released. "Threaten" them with importation and I wonder if they'd
change there stance - worried at losing out on revenue. Of course, Ted
Turner of Borg's assimilation of Warner probably means its worth more
to him to keep them of the streets and on TV sets once it hits
syndication in 1998 wher he can make all that advertising revenue.
Brian Rauchfuss - PCD
In article <32B705...@ix.netcom.com>,
Craige K. Howlett <cra...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>... A lot of people are under the misconception that you are the
>first to have written these many eps' (four seasons worth) and have done
>the producing of it too, in a SF series. I'm not exactly sure if you
>have told the others about the one who came before you, that you are
>doing the same thing that someone else did 30 plus years ago.
>...
>Rod Sterling and the Twilight Zone will be mark that few writers and
>even few producers will ever be able to hit.
Rod Sterling is one of JMS' heros, and has said that he wished
that he wrote as well as Mr. Sterling. (JMS has some stories about
Rod Sterling which are interesting enough to track down, I'm sure they
are on the web somewhere)
The thing which is a JMS first is writing an entire season by himself. Even
Rod Sterling wasn't that crazy!
Brian
SGWM
On 18 Dec 1996 22:26:32 -0500, michelle...@stonebow.otago.ac.nz
(Miche) wrote:
>In article <32B705...@ix.netcom.com>
>"Craige K. Howlett" <cra...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>> 3. If WB in the US wouldn't sell the tapes to us and the UK is selling
>> them. Would it be possible to have a studio (anyone who has the
>> equipment) over here set up to buy the tapes from the UK (which is done
>> on PAL) and pull them off and record them back on to VHS standard
>> without violating the copyright laws?
>
>The UK tapes are also on VHS. The system used in the United States is
>called NTSC. This is the standard for the US. It is the same on VHS
>and Beta. PAL is the standard in the UK, Australia, New Zealand and a
>few other places. It, too, is the same on VHS and Beta. To recap:
>NTSC is *not* the same as VHS.
No, you're both completely confused as to what's going on here. The
fact the UK videos are on VHS is entirely irrelevant.
VHS is a standard applied to *video*. There are two formats - VHS and
Betamax. JVC's clever marketing meant that the technically inferior
VHS "won" the battle for the hearts of the public and Betamax was
exiled to obscurity. The signal recorded onto aVHS tape can be either
NTSC or PAL - hence the dual-format machines that are becoming more
prevalent in the UK at the moment.
NTSC is the standard applied to *television* transmissions in the USA.
PAL is the standard applied to *television* transmissions in the UK.
Most commonly you will find that
The US have VHS video and NTSC television sets.
The UK have VHS video and PAL television sets.
It is the Television transmission standard that is important here, not
the video standard.
Jms at B5
"Jerry 'Garibaldi' Doyle (sp) recently stated in an interview that he was
looking to leave mid season this year (season four). Whether the writer
of the article (the interviewer) made it look like Doyle (sp) was unhappy
or if Mr. Doyle real is unhappy, it came across that way. He seems to
blame the writing (you in this case) for not developing his character
more. To add fuel to the fire, the rumor mill has been grinding out that
Bester will be reappearing soon and Doyle's character will be leaving on
the same show. How do you as the semi-sole writer of the series respond
to an actor who believes that his abilities are not being fully used."
First, I've never seen Jerry say that in print, and he's not leaving
mid-season year 4, and in fact he's had more to do this season than he has
in a long time. He has a huge arc this season. B5 is an ensemble show,
so there's always going to be some times when actors get more or less to
do, that's part of the job.
I commend to you the article that just came out in (you'll pardon the
expression) Starlog this month...it's an interview with Jerry that
addresses all of those points, and disputes all the commentrs you just
made here.
"If WB in the US wouldn't sell the tapes to us and the UK is selling them.
Would it be possible to have a studio (anyone who has the equipment) over
here set up to buy the tapes from the UK (which is done on PAL) and pull
them off and record them back on to VHS standard without violating the
copyright laws?"
Nope.
"Rod Sterling and the Twilight Zone will be mark that few writers and even
few producers will ever be able to hit."
It's Rod Serling. If you're going to use the name, learn how it's spelled
(you got it wrong each time you typed it). On the matter of script
numbers, I replied to that elsewhere. On the rest...Rod is one of my
icons, so believe me, I know his work far, far better than most people. I
have read his original scripts (many not available anywhere but via CBS),
have collaborated with him posthumously on the Twilight Zone v2.5, I know
his wife, Carol, and his neice, Sandi Serling, is one of our publicists.
Believe me, I know from Serling.
jms
Jay Denebeim
In article <32bd7d8f...@news.demon.co.uk>,
SGWM <Lor...@Maitreya.Demon.Co.UK> wrote:
>"does that mean Jerry is leaving as well?". JMS replied
>"Jerry ain't going anywhere."
Oooo, we're going to have a snuff episode of B5, cool. Don't let Bill
Mumy be in the scene, you'll only have one shot, and you know how he
is...
Jay
--
* Jay Denebeim, Moderator, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *
* newsgroup submission address: ras...@solon.com *
* moderator contact address: rastb5-...@solon.com *
* personal contact address: dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us *
Jay Denebeim
In article <cmarie.8...@laraby.tiac.net>,
Claudia Marie <cma...@laraby.tiac.net> wrote:
>Hm. You sure? JMS has been asked about outfits that buy the PAL
>tape, convert it, and sell you both the PAL original and the NTSC
>copy. Last I heard, he said they were perfectly legal.
Last I heard, he said they were quite illegal. (Me, I'm not too sure
about it, other than the liscencing in the UK only, of course. Since
there is never more copies than were purchased the way these guys do
it, I don't see how it's violating the copyright. (they copy tape N+1
onto tape N))
Jay Denebeim
In article <19961220081...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
> It's Rod Serling. If you're going to use the name, learn how it's
> spelled (you got it wrong each time you typed it). On the matter of
> script numbers, I replied to that elsewhere. On the rest...Rod is
> one of my icons, so believe me, I know his work far, far better than
> most people. I have read his original scripts (many not available
> anywhere but via CBS), have collaborated with him posthumously on
> the Twilight Zone v2.5, I know his wife, Carol, and his neice, Sandi
> Serling, is one of our publicists. Believe me, I know from Serling.
Hey Joe,
Tell us a story!... Seriously, I was looking through lurker's for
the story about the time you met him. I couldn't find it there. So,
if you wouldn't mind telling us again, I'd really appreciate it.
I found the watch story, which IIRC you told a couple of months
after your encounter with Serling story. I didn't realize it's been
that long since you told it.
Jay Denebeim
In article <58evjb$1...@library.airnews.net>,
Dennis Virzi <osw...@airmail.net> wrote:
>The short answer is that this is not in the spirit or intent of that
>Hugo category.
>
>The long answer is a debate over what constitutes a _real_ continuous
>story.
I disagree. Each season of B5 is structured as a book of a series.
They have a beginning, a middle, and an end. The main thread of
season 3 was the story of the White Star, which was introduced in the
first episoded and blowed up in the last. Other than in the few
stand-alones, it was a continuous narrative, each episode centered
around an event, but they all moved the story along. If someone wrote
a book in which each chapter introduced and resolved an event, and
even published them as short stories as he wrote the book, I doubt
that a Hugo would be denied the book.
Now, that being said, if season 4 continues as it has, there's no
question that it is a single dramatic unit. However, ask yourself,
what's the difference between seasons three and four? It's that lack
of an event that the episodes revolve around, no crecendo in the
writing, or at least none that falls on episode boundries.
Jay Denebeim
In article <32AB06...@pacbell.com>,
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <djd...@PacBell.COM> wrote:
>I don't want to be nasty
>about this, but I'd say that INDEPENDENCE DAY is all but a shoo-in.
>Keep in mind who votes for the Hugo.
I'll be surprised if it even makes the ballot. I haven't run across
*any* SF fan who thought the movie had merrit as art. It was a fun
movie, but definately a check your brain at the door graphics blowout.
Jay Denebeim
In article <58noge$q...@library.airnews.net>,
Dennis Virzi <osw...@airmail.net> wrote:
>Least we forget, STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT is also elligible.
And? ST does not have a chance except when the con is in San
Francisco.
ro...@newsb.att.com
Jay Denebeim wrote:
>
> In article <32bd7d8f...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> SGWM <Lor...@Maitreya.Demon.Co.UK> wrote:
> >"does that mean Jerry is leaving as well?". JMS replied
> >"Jerry ain't going anywhere."
>
> Oooo, we're going to have a snuff episode of B5, cool. Don't let Bill
> Mumy be in the scene, you'll only have one shot, and you know how he
> is...
>
> Jay
> --
snuff? The B5 drug situation is getting out of control :)
--
Dianne
(aka dhe...@intr.net)
Craige K. Howlett
I stand corrected on several points it would seem...
1. The article I read was in a 'tab' while passing through London about
six months ago. I can only assume that the writer was quoting the
original TV interview (it would seem it was a two year old interview).
It would seem I was wrong for quoting it and for that I apology to those
of you who were offended. For those of you who flamed me (in private),
all I say is 'bite me'.
2. As for mispelling of Mr. Serling name, oops. The mind was working
on Robert Sterling, who's book I was reading while I was writing the
email. I have met the 'man' once when I was very young in New York in a
Hotel Lobby. My mother was having a chat with him, but he scared the
hell of me. He seems ten feet tall and that 'cig' never left his hand.
He had a voice that I will always remember, drilled right through me.
If anyone out there believes that I've in any way insulted either the
'man' or JMS's writing ability by comparing you to the 'man', it was not
meant. Understand that I didn't mean any harm or insult. However, I
got the impression that Sentor Benson was addressing in some of your
replies. For those of you who have forgotten his famous comment, it
went something like this
"I knew Jack Kennedy and you're no Jack Kennedy"
My momentary laspe of mispelling doesn't take away from the fact that
the path now being traveled by JMS was cut by people who came before
him. Remember that in the early 60's, News shows were from 15 minutes
to 30 minutes, your average show was only 30 minutes and no one was
doing hour long SF shows. RS was on the cutting (bleeding) of writing
and networks were always ready to cut him loose. He didn't have an
expensive budget for FX.
Am I stepping on anyone's toes here?!?!?
Consider how GR of TOST how to have felt attempting to do an hour show,
talk about stomach acid on the rise...
3. To those of you who corrected on the VHS verus PAL on the UK
circuit. Thank you the answers.
Happy Holidays
Craige...
David Stinson
In article <32BB2D...@ix.netcom.com>,:2. As for mispelling of Mr. Serling name, oops. The mind was working
:on Robert Sterling, who's book I was reading while I was writing the
:email. I have met the 'man' once when I was very young in New York in a
:Hotel Lobby. My mother was having a chat with him, but he scared the
:hell of me. He seems ten feet tall and that 'cig' never left his hand.
:He had a voice that I will always remember, drilled right through me.
:If anyone out there believes that I've in any way insulted either the
:'man' or JMS's writing ability by comparing you to the 'man', it was not
:meant. Understand that I didn't mean any harm or insult. However, I
:got the impression that Sentor Benson was addressing in some of your
:replies. For those of you who have forgotten his famous comment, it
:went something like this
:
:"I knew Jack Kennedy and you're no Jack Kennedy"
:
:My momentary laspe of mispelling doesn't take away from the fact that
:the path now being traveled by JMS was cut by people who came before
:him. Remember that in the early 60's, News shows were from 15 minutes
:to 30 minutes, your average show was only 30 minutes and no one was
:doing hour long SF shows. RS was on the cutting (bleeding) of writing
:and networks were always ready to cut him loose. He didn't have an
:expensive budget for FX.
:
:Am I stepping on anyone's toes here?!?!?
And think of how they would have felt with someone complaining on a public
forum about them constantly...
JMS has done a fine job. You seem to think that in respecting Rod Serling, you
have to place JMS as a Johnny-come-lately aspiring to the throne. Both men
have in common that they are/were very talented writers, who produced their
own shows their way. Just as there is room for B5 where there is Star Trek,
there is room for JMS where there is Rod Serling.
Not to mention JMS's long fight just to get the show on the air in the first
place (it took six years of hard work to get it on the air - and four years
since then of continuing good work - AND IT HAS WON THE HUGO).
Your own attitude definitely leaves something to be desired.
Both men have achieved something extra-ordinary by the very definition of the
term. That does not mean that congratulating JMS for his achievement is in ANY
manner a put-down of Rod Serling by any means. JMS himself is a major Rod
Serling fan and has done much work on Serling based projects (TWILIGHT ZONE
magazine, THE NEW TWILIGHT ZONE, etc).
--
David A. Stinson Web Page: http://www.procom.com/~daves/index.html E-Mail: dsti...@ix.netcom.com da...@procom.com dast...@aol.com ************************************************
** "Gonna need another Timmy!" -Baby Sinclair **
************************************************
Paul Comeau
Jms at B5 wrote:
<snip>
>> "If WB in the US wouldn't sell the tapes to us and
>> the UK is selling them. Would it be possible to have
>> a studio (anyone who has the equipment) over here set
>> up to buy the tapes from the UK (which is done on PAL)
>> and pull them off and record them back on to VHS standard
>> without violating the copyright laws?"
>
> Nope.
Just curious... I know there was a firm importing U.K. tapes
(professional
legit tapes from CH 4, BBC, etc.) As part of the price you would get the
origingal tape (in PAL), and a copy of the tape transfered to SECAM
(sp?).
At least for U.K. copyright they felt this was o.k. (the customer did
get
the original tape, and the transfer was done at cost.)
Would this be leagal for the B5 stuff under current copyright laws?
--
"All I've ever wanted to be was
the perfect one who killed for free." (Big Country)
pco...@winternet.com
Andrew Masin
Lor...@Maitreya.Demon.Co.UK (SGWM) wrote:
>This post contains possible spoilers for mid-season 4 and thereafter.
>10
>9
>8
>7
>6
>5
>4
>3
>2
>1
>0
...
Various snipped stuff
...
>Add to that the following, dug up from a post from JMS in 1993 (This
>can also be found buried in the Lurker's Guide. ). I think it clearly
>indicates what we can expect to happen to Mr G mid-season:
...
More snipps!
...
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Overview of the 5-year plan
> from J. Michael Straczynski, creator, writer and producer
> copyright 1993
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>We'll find that most every major character is running to, or away from
>something in their hearts, or their pasts, or their careers.
>Garibaldi's checkered past will catch up with him in a way that will
>affect his role and make him a very different character for as much as
>a full season, and have lasting effects thereafter.
>(* SGWM : and if you doubt this post's accuracy over three years on
>check this : *)
>You'll find out what happened to Babylon 4, and it will call into
>question what is real, what is not, and the ending of that episode is
>one that you have not seen before on television.
...
Funny, that bit about sending B4 back in time kind of reminded me of,
what was it, those time travel episodes in TNG? (season 4 mebbee).
Andrew Masin (ama...@mindspring.com)
"Annoyance is the most sincere form of flattery, at least my mother
thinks so!"
P.S. Is that a bunch of bald guys outside? Green bald guys? With
baseball bats!?
Bye.
David Goldfarb
Jay Denebeim <dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us> wrote:
)ST does not have a chance except when the con is in San
)Francisco.
Um, what? ST:TOS won twice, and ST:TNG won twice. Only
one of the four cons that gave these awards was in San Francisco.
David Goldfarb <*>|"I know you miss the Wainwrights, Bobby, but they
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | were weak and stupid people -- and that's why
aste...@slip.net | we have wolves and other large predators."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- The Far Side
SGWM
On 19 Dec 1996 19:02:20 -0500, in rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
brau...@pcocd2.intel.com (Brian Rauchfuss - PCD)wrote:
>The thing which is a JMS first is writing an entire season by himself. Even
>Rod Sterling wasn't that crazy!
That's not quite true you know. Terry Nation, creator of the Daleks in
Doctor Who wrote the entire first series of Blakes 7, which he created
for the BBC in the wake of the success of the Star Wars films.
Admittedly it was a thirteen episode run, unlike JMS's 22 - which has
been appended in a broken run either side of season 3.
SGWM
On 21 Dec 1996 10:31:27 -0500, Paul Comeau <pco...@winternet.com>
wrote:
>Jms at B5 wrote:
><snip>
>>> "If WB in the US wouldn't sell the tapes to us and
>>> the UK is selling them. Would it be possible to have
>>> a studio (anyone who has the equipment) over here set
>>> up to buy the tapes from the UK (which is done on PAL)
>>> and pull them off and record them back on to VHS standard
>>> without violating the copyright laws?"
>>
>> Nope.
>
>Just curious... I know there was a firm importing U.K. tapes
>(professional
>legit tapes from CH 4, BBC, etc.) As part of the price you would get the
>origingal tape (in PAL), and a copy of the tape transfered to SECAM
>(sp?).
>At least for U.K. copyright they felt this was o.k. (the customer did
>get
>the original tape, and the transfer was done at cost.)
>
>Would this be leagal for the B5 stuff under current copyright laws?
No. read my prior message on this. Its a violation of the distribution
rights and this is where the real problem lies.
Jms at B5
"My momentary laspe of mispelling doesn't take away from the fact that the
path now being traveled by JMS was cut by people who came before him.
Remember that in the early 60's, News shows were from 15 minutes to 30
minutes, your average show was only 30 minutes and no one was doing hour
long SF shows. RS was on the cutting (bleeding) of writing and networks
were always ready to cut him loose. He didn't have an expensive budget for
FX."
He had an expensive budget for FX *for that time*, not in comparison to
now in terms of dollar-for-dollar.
And yeah, we all stand on the shoulders of giants...so what's your point?
Before me there were others, like Rod...and barely preceding Rod there was
Paddy Chayefsky and Reginald Rose and Arch Oboler...and on and on and on.
jms
yan vaillancourt
In article <59ea2q$a...@marvin.deepthot.cary.nc.us>,
dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim) wrote:
>In article <58noge$q...@library.airnews.net>,
>Dennis Virzi <osw...@airmail.net> wrote:
>
>>Least we forget, STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT is also elligible.
>
>Francisco.
>
>Jay
I agree, ST: FC was a good movie, and certainly one of the best Star Trek
movies (funny how only even numbered movies are actually worth watching <G>),
but it's not an award winner (except perhaps for effects).
Awards are usually given for the dept nd drama of the writing, how subtle
it was accomplished, and as a rule winners are usually the kind of
novels/movies that have to be watched MANY times to fully understand the story
(like Dune (the novel), The Stars My Destination (just read it, and I got to
say that its awesome <G>) and (as for movies) The Empire Of The Sun).
First Contact was probably one of the most dramatic ST movie (I loved the
mody dick quoting scene, abuot the only scene which I really loved <G>), but
is nothing compred to Za'Ha'Dum.
One need only see the Dlenn/Sheridan scene at the start of the ep to know
this is one of the best episode in Bab5's history :-). Also, I do beleive that
it should also win something for its musical score (I don't think there are
hugos for that, but anything else would be enough <G>). The music litteraly
fills the air at the climax, as Anna approaches sheridan, and it has never
failed to amaze me.
Yan Vaillancourt
Dennis Virzi
In article <32be2...@news.total.net>,
wca...@total.net (yan vaillancourt) wrote:
>>Dennis Virzi <osw...@airmail.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Least we forget, STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT is also elligible.
>>
>>And? ST does not have a chance except when the con is in San
>>Francisco.
>>
>>Jay
>
>
> I agree, ST: FC was a good movie, and certainly one of the best Star Trek
>movies (funny how only even numbered movies are actually worth watching <G>),
>but it's not an award winner (except perhaps for effects).
I wasn't saying it should win, but that there will most likely
be enough nominating ballots for it to make the final ballot.
I expect to see ID4 on there as well.
Unless of course everyone HERE buys a membership (supporting is
sufficient to vote) in Lonestarcon 2 and then nominates their
favorite B5 episode(s).
Dennis
Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
Reposting, since my last sending of this note hasn't shown up yet (and
several posted later have).
dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim) gave us these sage words:
>In article <58evjb$1...@library.airnews.net>,
>Dennis Virzi <osw...@airmail.net> wrote:
>>The short answer is that this is not in the spirit or intent of that
>>Hugo category.
>>
>>The long answer is a debate over what constitutes a _real_ continuous
>>story.
>I disagree. Each season of B5 is structured as a book of a series.
>They have a beginning, a middle, and an end. The main thread of
>season 3 was the story of the White Star, which was introduced in the
>first episoded and blowed up in the last. Other than in the few
>stand-alones, it was a continuous narrative, each episode centered
>around an event, but they all moved the story along. If someone wrote
>a book in which each chapter introduced and resolved an event, and
>even published them as short stories as he wrote the book, I doubt
>that a Hugo would be denied the book.
>Now, that being said, if season 4 continues as it has, there's no
>question that it is a single dramatic unit. However, ask yourself,
>what's the difference between seasons three and four? It's that lack
>of an event that the episodes revolve around, no crecendo in the
>writing, or at least none that falls on episode boundries.
So what you saying is that we should nominate an episode for season 3
since the episodes sort of stand alone and wait until season 4 to do a
season nomination, since season 4 is much more of a "continuous"
story.
OK, _which_ episode(s)? What's been hot in the group or mentioned so
far on this thread:
Z'ha'dum
Walkabout
Severed Dreams
War Without End
Hour of the Wolf
Whatever Happened to Mister Garibaldi
The last two being fourth season, which I would kind of like to keep
aside for a season nomination.
Anypath, let's play with it.
Auntie M
************************************************************************
* Lisa Deutsch Harrigan * "Any excuse for a con party." *
* li...@harrigan.org * "The easy to remember address." *
* aunt...@harrigan.org * "Definitely not in Kansas." *
* *
* I don't need no stinking disclaimer. This is my domaine, and I can *
* say what ever I want. Right, dear? *
* *
************************************************************************
Matthew Murray
On 25 Dec 1996, Lisa Deutsch Harrigan wrote:
> OK, _which_ episode(s)? What's been hot in the group or mentioned so
> far on this thread:
>
> Z'ha'dum
> Walkabout
> Severed Dreams
> War Without End
> Hour of the Wolf
> Whatever Happened to Mister Garibaldi
Of the episodes mentioned, I believe that, far and away,
"Z'ha'dum" deserves the nomination. Yes, "Severed Dreams" was good--I'm
not arguing that. But I believe that "Z'ha'dum" was not only the biggest
wham episode of Babylon 5 yet--in terms of sheer drama, action, and
flat-out suspense--but also of American science-fiction television
history, and maybe of all television history altogether. Television has
>never< seen anything like "Z'ha'dum" and, on the basis of its
overwhelming, knock-down emotional and dramatic weight, it should be
recognized for the landmark it is.
> The last two being fourth season, which I would kind of like to keep
> aside for a season nomination.
Well, from what I've seen of the fourth season so far, I would be
inclined to agree with you, but that will only be if the fourth season
continues in the path it has currently been following. Besides, I
believe that the award is only eligible if the dramatic unit was written
by one author, and jms has stated in the past that there will be more
than one scriptwriter during season four, which I think automatically
takes it out of the running. Season three would have been eligible, but
unfortunately, I don't think there is any way it could be considered a
single dramatic unit.
===============================================================================
Matthew Murray - n964...@cc.wwu.edu - http://www.wwu.edu/~n9641343
===============================================================================
The script calls for fusing and using our smarts,
And greatness can come from the sum of our parts.
From now on, I'm with you--and with you is where I belong!
-David Zippel, City of Angels
===============================================================================
David Frankel
dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim) wrote:
If someone wrote
>a book in which each chapter introduced and resolved an event, and
>even published them as short stories as he wrote the book, I doubt
>that a Hugo would be denied the book.
>
I agree.
Would The Martian Cheronicles be eligible? I would think so.
David "would love to vote for all of season 3" Frankel
Londo Mollari
David Frankel <fra...@ccisd3.ccf.org> wrote:
> dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim) wrote:
> If someone wrote
> >a book in which each chapter introduced and resolved an event, and
> >even published them as short stories as he wrote the book, I doubt
> >that a Hugo would be denied the book.
> >
>
> I agree.
> Would The Martian Cheronicles be eligible? I would think so.
It could be argued either way. With the exception of some filler/connecting
material the _Martian_Chronicles_ was previously published in previous
years. It could be called a short story collection (not eligible) or
a novel (eligible) though a fix-up novel. In any event, I think everyone
would agree that _The_Illustrated_Man_ would not be eligible since its
"connecting" material is so insubstantial that I would call it
a short story collection. In any event, B5 has an advantage that neither
of these great Bradbury works don't. Namely that those Bradbury works
were originally conceived to be just short stories sold to various magazines.
B5 was conceived as a whole before it come out.
> David "would love to vote for all of season 3" Frankel
In any event, this issue has been settled. The official answer is no.
Lets wait until the whole series is finished and vote for the WHOLE
series in the 1998 or 1999 Worldcon depending when B5 finishes.
--
"It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will
sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us."
- Roger Zelazny
Londo Mollari
David Frankel
What exactly _does_ one need to do to be eligible to vote, and then how
does one go about voting.
Perhaps this info should be posted on the Lurker's Guide Home page (a
saturation campaign ala Highlander's recent People Magazine On-line
landslide).
David "conspicuous by his presence" Frankel
Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
David Frankel <fra...@ccisd3.ccf.org> gave us these sage words:
> What exactly _does_ one need to do to be eligible to vote, and then how
>does one go about voting.
> Perhaps this info should be posted on the Lurker's Guide Home page (a
>saturation campaign ala Highlander's recent People Magazine On-line
>landslide).
You need to join LoneStarCon 2, the WorldCon for 1997. The best way to
get the info you need go to:
That is their homepage and has current membership rate information.
Note: you only need to be a supporting member of the con to nominate
and vote for the Hugos. Attendance at the convention is not mandatory,
but WorldCons are fun to go to, so do try to make it.
Auntie M, who has now got a true fanish dilemma, since a nice fan run,
local B-5 con has moved to Labor Day Weekend! Can I clone myself now?
Raymond Francis Fitzpatrick
On 3 Jan 1997, David Frankel wrote:
>
>
> What exactly _does_ one need to do to be eligible to vote, and then how
> does one go about voting.
Any membership to that years WORLDCON makes you eligible...if you can't
afford a full membership or simply can't go, you can buy a supporting one
for $25, according to aflyer they had out at Stellar Occasion.
I'm assuming voting forms or info arrive w your membership.
MAFinn
PS: Anyone attending World Con in San Antonio, I'll be living approx 10
mins from the con, if anyone wants to meet. I'm not sure I'll be able to
afford a full membership this year (a wedding 2 months beforehand tends
to...impede cash flow), but I'll definately be around.
And Mary Q, you have crash space if you wish to come down. You too,
Gharlane...what power requirements are needed for you life support jar?